381. Are friendships REALLY meant to be inconvenient?

Everyone wants a village? No one wants to be a villager? In a world obsessed with protecting our peace, optimising our time, and cutting off anything that feels draining ... have we accidentally made friendship optional? In this episode, we’re unpacking the psychology behind friendship and why the best ones sometimes make you work harder. We explore: The viral idea that “inconvenience is the cost of community” The 4 psychological pillars of lasting friendships How much time it actually takes to build a close friend The rise of therapy-speak and how “boundaries” can sometimes become disguised avoidance Why conflict isn’t the end of a friendship 6 practical ways to “be a villager” When to kick someone out of the village... If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re asking for too much, giving too much, or slowly drifting from the people you care about, this episode is for you. Watch on Netflix Netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:11Jemma Sbeg?

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• 2:10Jemma Sbeg?

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• 2:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

• 2:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here back for another episode. Guys, I don't know. I feel, I don't know how I feel about my outfit. I'm trying to, I'm like trying out the leopard print today. Is this leopard print? I don't even know anymore. I don't know if, I don't know if this is me. So if you see me like picking at my cardigan today, no, it's because I'm trying out a new identity as somebody bold enough to wear leopard print and I'm, I'm adjusting. That has literally nothing to do with what we're talking about, like literally nothing. Today, we are going to tackle the biggest question on the internet of the era. Are friendships supposed to be inconvenient?

• 3:40Jemma Sbeg?

  How much can we actually expect and demand from our friends? And have we come to expect too little from people in our lives? I am sure that you have seen this phrase out there recently online, specifically on TikTok, maybe on Instagram. Inconvenience is the cost of community. Or another one that's very similar is everybody wants the village, nobody wants to be the villager. These terms, these phrases have been really hard to miss and I think they're pointing towards this big realization that we're having as a society that, you know, the past 20 years have made us one of the most isolated generations in history.

• 4:23Jemma Sbeg?

  There has been, you know, the proliferation of of social media that was meant to make us less lonely has made us lonelier. And a lot of wellness content has really focused on protecting our peace and boundaries. But has any of that actually made us happier? If we were to look at any loneliness survey, any loneliness study, any life satisfaction survey taken in the last five years, the answer is pretty obviously, no, we are not happier. Loneliness has literally been labelled the modern health epidemic in the same class as diseases like Covid or Ebola or the flu. And the younger you are, the more connected

• 5:07Jemma Sbeg?

  you are ironically, or you should be due to technology, the more likely you are to report feeling increasingly isolated. Now, obviously, there are a lot of factors going on here. You know, the pandemic in particular interrupted a huge developmental stage for a lot of us when we were typically meant to meet a lot of our lifelong friends. You know, again, social media, our smartphones, they are highly addictive. They've made it a lot harder to connect in person. But how much of it is because we have become selfish community members? You know, I've had some moments with people in the last few months, personally, that have really made me start asking this question myself. Am I, am I

• 5:51Jemma Sbeg?

  asking too much of my friends? Or do I just need better friends? You know, there have been so many moments in, since moving to London and since Netflix happening where I'm like, you know, do, do I actually deserve more? Am I putting up with, with, with not enough? Am I putting up with less? And how much is that me? How much is that my expectations? How much is that my fault? And how much is it because maybe overnight our expectations for friendships have changed? And that has been a really hard pill to swallow and one I'm still kind of confused by myself. So of course, I thought I would take this conversation and this rumination out of my mind and give it to you guys. And hopefully, you can decide

• 6:35Jemma Sbeg?

  what we should be doing based on our discussion and the psychology we introduce today. So without further ado, let's get into it.

• 6:48Jemma Sbeg?

  So I thought that we'd start this episode by actually going through the psychological research on what makes a good friend, but also what is needed for a friendship to survive? Because I don't think anybody teaches us this, but it is such valuable knowledge. There have been so many attempts to categorize good friendship over the years, but my favorite one is by the social researcher Deborah Oswald, who in 2016 published an entire meta-analysis on maintaining long-lasting friendships. And she looked at studies from years and years and years of psychology and what she found.

• 7:30Jemma Sbeg?

  Her conclusion was that lasting friendships need four things to survive: positivity, openness, supportiveness, and interaction. Positivity is essentially, we need somebody who's going to make us feel better about ourself or better about our lives. Openness means we want people who are vulnerable, who are responsive, who share. Supportiveness means, just classically, like, people need to be there for you in good times and in bad times as well, not just emotionally, but physically, which is very important for the discussion we're having today. And finally, interaction.

• 8:12Jemma Sbeg?

  Interaction doesn't have to be in person, it doesn't have to be every week, but there is some kind of minimal level of contact required before a friendship is deprioritized in our lives or just like fades altogether. Now, this number, this level of interaction changes based on where you are in your friendship, obviously. When you're first establishing a friendship, that is where the biggest time investment is taking place. A 2018 study found that it takes about 50 hours to shift from acquaintances to casual friends, 90 hours to call someone a good friend, over 200 hours plus to call somebody a really close friend. Even that is kind of at the lower end.

• 8:57Jemma Sbeg?

  So obviously, when you're first making a friend, you need to see each other quite frequently to kind of maintain that bond. But in terms of maintenance, the maintenance of a long-term friendship, we actually don't have that much research about how often we should be interacting. And maybe that's Part of the broader social problem here, we're all very interested in making friends, in surrounding ourselves with people, but once we have them, I think it's a lot easier to kind of take them for granted and not be putting in those maintenance hours. My take is the longer the friendship, the more time between interactions, online or in person, you can kind of get away with, especially if they're a long distance friend.

• 9:40Jemma Sbeg?

  I also think, my personal opinion again, is that in-person hours count for triple online hours in terms of quality time. But it's funny that, you know, as soon as we get to this discussion of like, what does it take to be a good friend, we immediately discuss minimums here. You know, we immediately are like, what's the minimum amount we should be seeing our friends? When in fact, you should want to see your friends as much as possible. You shouldn't just be looking for the minimal number of hours to pour into somebody so that they will be there for you when you really need them. So, that was a tangent, let's return to the original research. Positivity, openness, supportiveness and

• 10:19Jemma Sbeg?

  interaction, that's what a friendship needs to survive. Something though, that these factors all have in common that comes back to this broader question we're asking today is that all of these things are quite time intensive and sacrificial and difficult at times. It's difficult to always be supportive, it's difficult to always be there for your friends. But if you are missing even one of these things for too long, a friendship is going to fade. Friendships are not, at least my friendships are not, some evergreen tree you can plant and leave and they will stay the same forever for your return, especially not friendships

• 11:00Jemma Sbeg?

  that are early on in their lives. This is where our problem emerges. It is so much easier to be that kind of detached friend and to

• 11:11Jemma Sbeg?

  Only devote our energy and our time to ourselves. It is so much easier, whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, like, we're all tired. It's so much easier to spend time alone and to not be annoyed or inconvenienced by other people's problems. But you are almost guaranteeing loneliness that way. And this really brings us naturally to the big question of the day. Why is our preference for being alone? Why is it that we have come to expect less from our friendships and also inadvertently desire to give less? Like, what has changed in recent decades that has made this a trend that we're seeing? I personally think there are three distinct horsemen of like the low expectation, low effort friendship apocalypse.

• 11:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Three things that have done the most damage to how we create and maintain good relationships. First is the move from social spaces to private spaces that we're experiencing, the broader social move from social to private spaces. Second is busyness and how overworked we are. And third is, and this might be controversial, but it is the manipulation of self-help language and self-help terms that we throw around and we don't actually understand. So let's start with number one, the move from public spaces to private spaces, including our move online, which could be deemed a public space but is often accessed privately.

• 12:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I read this fascinating study that said in the last 30 years, our use of public spaces has dropped by more than 14%. The time we spend in third spaces, so coffee shops, libraries, parks, pubs, just sitting and enjoying ourselves, being present outdoors in public spaces, has also drastically shifted with people spending more and more time at home.

• 13:12Jemma Sbeg?

  You know a really fascinating way they studied this? They looked at walking speed and walking pace as a determinant of how much time people are spending in public spaces. Obviously, if you're walking slower, you spend more time in public spaces, you're more likely to run into a neighbour or talk to somebody. If you're walking faster efficiently, you're going to kind of pass by those minimal social interactions. Our walking pace has increased by 15% in the last few years, meaning we are more in a rush. We are more in a rush to get from place A to place B, from work to home, home to gym,

• 13:50Jemma Sbeg?

  gym back home, which has, and I kind of just mentioned this, reduced our incidental exposure to other people in our community. What has replaced these times we'd usually spend out of our homes? You know, what has replaced these moments we'd usually spend with our friends? It's our phones. Our phones, our screens, our streaming services, things that are by their very nature, very private. Technology, particularly social media, which ironically promised us even more connection, has made us actually have very isolated and sanitized lives.

• 14:34Jemma Sbeg?

  On average, and this is an average, we spend two, two and a half hours on social media a day. A lot of that is just empty time that I think often feels like we're doing something social because we're seeing the faces of other people, we're hearing their voices, we're learning about their stories, we're receiving dopamine, but it's not. And what's funny is that a big reason we don't see our friends, don't do the 40-minute commute to their side of town, don't have the evening free for them, is because we think we have less free time. But in fact, it's because we have devoted more of that free time to foreign time. A 2023 study actually found

• 15:20Jemma Sbeg?

  We have about the same amount of free time as we did two decades ago before the explosion of MySpace and Facebook. On average, five hours, five hours of free time a day. But we spend so much more of it online, which feels more like a necessity and therefore means that we are becoming more and more isolated without realising it. And I know, obviously, you guys have heard this so many times. Social media is making us more lonely, social media is stealing our time, stealing our attention. But I think it's really important to emphasise that in an episode about how friendship has become seemingly more inconvenient, when we are very easily and very much allow ourselves

• 16:02Jemma Sbeg?

  to be inconvenienced by our phones equally as much. The truth is, though, we may have as much leisure time as we did 20 to 30 years ago. That doesn't mean we're not cognitively more exhausted and more extended during the time we are working or switched on at work to use that time effectively. And that brings me to reason number two. We may have the same amount of free time, but busyness and overall exhaustion is a big reason we feel like the inconvenience of friendship is sometimes more of a challenge. You know, we may be working the same hours, but what is expected of us during those hours

• 16:46Jemma Sbeg?

  is far different from before, especially as technology has, you know, driven up productivity expectations and therefore driven up cognitive fatigue. That leaves less mental energy for the things we actually want or know we should do, like seeing our friends. The fact that that busyness has become more of a status symbol as well these days, which you will know all too well if you listen to our Why Rest Makes You Feel Guilty episode, that hasn't helped. You know, a busy schedule, it's the new designer handbag, it's the new sports car. It makes you seem important.

• 17:28Jemma Sbeg?

  Having a large community simply isn't admired the same way that having a lot of money is, or having great accolades or an amazing important job is. I think that's changing these days. I think people are like, huh, money can't buy me happiness. It's almost like people have been saying that for years, but now I'm starting to realise it. And you can actually see that in social media trends, right? The community influencer, people who do events, people who show people where to meet others, who get offline, they're becoming so much more popular. I think we're realising that the allure of exhaustion is a lie. You can, again, have all the importance and money in the world, but you can't buy deep friendship.

• 18:12Jemma Sbeg?

  I always ask myself this question. Why are we so willing to inconvenience ourselves for a boss or for a job, but not for a friend? If your boss says, hey, I need you to work till nine P M without pay, you're like, of course, right away. But if your friend asks you to come to dinner that starts after eight, you're not going to do that. You're too busy. You're too tired. Your boss isn't going to be the one visiting you when you're sick. Your friends are. So you've got to make that space. Let yourself be inconvenienced by your friends the way you inconvenience yourself for work. I will say it is really hard to maintain everything we are expected to maintain as adults in a capitalist society.

• 18:57Jemma Sbeg?

  I know I'm receiving this message. You are receiving this message that you have to prioritise everything. Do everything, be successful in everything. That's impossible. So of course, some things get let go of. We fail in some aspects. And typically, because of the way that society and culture has prioritised our lives for us, friendship seems the least important, the least necessary. That's the thing we're going to give up first. And what we're seeing is, hey, maybe the priorities we've been given, friendship at the bottom or closer to the bottom is not right, because friendship is life giving. And not having our friends, not having community, regardless of how inconvenient it is, does come at a cost.

• 19:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I feel like this is a balance or challenge we are really going to have to figure out in the next few years, hopefully. How do we balance, you know, productivity and a very, very competitive job market and making money with wellbeing? And with one of the most inexpensive things for our wellbeing there is out there, which is friendship. Okay, we are going to take a short break here, but when we return, I want to get into that third, and I would say most controversial reason that we've, you know, shied away from

• 20:23Jemma Sbeg?

  the inconvenience of friendship, which is the rise of hyper individualized therapy speak. I don't think everyone's going to be happy with what I have to say, but it's important nonetheless. Stay with us.

• 20:40Speaker 03

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• 21:11Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 21:48Jemma Sbeg?

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• 22:33Jemma Sbeg?

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• 23:18Jemma Sbeg?

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• 23:40Jemma Sbeg?

  For a psychology podcast, again, what I'm going to say next might be a bit controversial. This is just my opinion, but I think the viral nature of so many therapy terms and therapy speak without actual education on what those terms mean and how to apply them has made us think it's okay to be selfish for no reason. This has made us think that it is normal to just do what we want and to call it a boundary and to expect others to respond accordingly. And if they don't, we can cut them from our lives. Big distinction I need to make here, I'm not talking about setting boundaries for

• 24:22Jemma Sbeg?

  wellbeing or being selfish as a way to reclaim the times that you were selfless and were taken advantage of. I'm not talking about selfishness for self-protection. Love all those things. I love when people state what they need, know what they need, are open about their wants. Love that. But that's the thing. I love it because it's being communicated. It's not being dictated. I think we can all think of examples of boundaries or therapy speak being co-opted in a way that is just unfair, unreasonable, and never explained. Ghosting a friend over a minor disagreement, not showing up for important events because

• 25:08Jemma Sbeg?

  you're tired, and refusing to acknowledge someone else's disappointment in that. Protecting your peace by disregarding others' feelings. I've done it before. I wish I could be like the innocent person here, but we all have. I read this article though, the other day from Bustle, and this is like a great example of this that I just think if there was going to be one example of this, this is the one I would use. It was this girl, her name was Anna, I think. Let's call her Anna. Sorry, Anna, if it's something else, but her name was Anna. She'd had this friend of five years. That's a long time to have a friend in your twenties. And her friend dumped her, dumped her over text whilst they were making plans,

• 25:51Jemma Sbeg?

  being like, I'm in a place where I'm trying to honor my needs and act in alignment with what feels right within the scope of my life. And I'm afraid our friendship doesn't seem to fit into that framework. I can no longer hold the emotional space you've wanted me to. That kind of language, which is empowering language, but that's classic therapy speak. And that language, yes, again, it's important, boundaries are important. But in this example, this person is missing a crucial ingredient. You can't set a boundary and not communicate it with the other person and then only deliver the consequences.

• 26:31Jemma Sbeg?

  You can't expect every relationship to be purely dictated by your needs, which are never expressed before the person is cut from your life and think or expect to have fulfilling friendships from that. It's just, it's not possible. Self-help and therapy and wellness speak and, and all this language has made us think that, I guess self-improvement and healing is something that happens in isolation, or that improving our lives is all about what we can do for ourselves and what we can do to make our lives more stress-free and nervous system regulation and removing toxic energy. But I think, I think we've overcorrected.

• 27:15Jemma Sbeg?

  There was a point where we didn't have any language for this. We didn't have any knowledge about this. And so we really did need some of this language to be like, hey, that's why I feel bad. That's why I feel taken advantage of. Now we've perhaps taken this standard so far that it's, that it's isolating. It's a highly individualistic approach that, you know, I think contradicts the collective lives most of us crave. What it also doesn't acknowledge is the mere fact of human nature. People make mistakes. You have made mistakes. You have made mistakes people have forgiven you for. People have disagreements. Relationships aren't equal all the time.

• 27:57Jemma Sbeg?

  And maybe the most crucial one of all, you are not the only person who has needs. And you are not the most important person in a relationship or in the world. You are just a person operating in a bigger collective system. And what you give to that collective, to your friends, to your family, to your neighbors, to strangers, is what you receive back. And there's still agency in that equation, right? If you wanna maintain those boundaries of like, do not cross these, do not wrong me, I cannot be inconvenienced, I wanna stress-free life, you're totally welcome to do that. But don't turn around and be surprised when you don't have any friends anymore.

• 28:42Jemma Sbeg?

  Or your community is, there's nothing there. The reason friendship is so beautiful and complex and nourishing, and the reason community is so beautiful and complex is nourishing, is because people are complex. And because they surprise us, and because they are imperfect. If you want to appreciate the full beauty of that, you also have to pay the price of being annoyed at people sometimes, because they piss you off. Or inconvenienced, because you don't really wanna pick them up from the airport, but you know, they did it for you the other day, so you might, you may as well. Or the occasional frustration that comes with people being

• 29:20Jemma Sbeg?

  unique and individual and not exactly catered to your needs, like a character in a movie. I think, I think personally, you get much more in return that way. True community is messy because humans are messy. That's why they are wonderful.

• 29:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Again, you can choose the alternative. You can continue to live a life where everything is organised around your convenience. You are so welcome to do so. That's the beautiful thing about therapy and this wave of wellness and self-improvement. People have learnt that they have agency in their emotional choices. You have free will. But I don't think your human experience is going to be as great as it can be if you alternatively accept a little bit of discomfort. It's called the law of friction. Some of the best things in life create the most friction and discomfort. That's with friendship.

• 30:22Jemma Sbeg?

  With that in mind, let's talk about what it takes to be a villager these days and the ways that you can create the community you want and that you deserve, even when it's not easy, starting with tip number one. This is the thing that dramatically, dramatically changed my friendships more than anything else. Do you know when you were in high school or even primary school and you would like keep track of who messaged you for your birthday? Or like who posted about you on their Instagram story or like Snapchat for your birthday and who didn't? Like, I know a lot of us still do this in adulthood in a different form. Keeping track of whether you were the last one to reach out.

• 31:08Jemma Sbeg?

  You were the last one to shout, you know, whatever it is, those little things. I need you to stop doing that. I know it feels unnatural, but I need you to stop doing that. Everything becomes a scoreboard and that eliminates the natural reciprocity that a relationship should have. There is a very famous social psychology theory that you've definitely heard on this podcast before. It's known as equity theory, basically says that when we perceive that the input and output ratio in a relationship is not fair or is unequal in friendship, it causes tension and it causes us to be uncomfortable. That's totally understandable, right? Because we want to know that somebody likes us as much as we like them, that they're

• 31:53Jemma Sbeg?

  not taking advantage of us. But when it's the only thing you pay attention to, that's not an organic relationship. And additionally. You have to be able to view that over many years if you want long term friendships. Sometimes a friend needs more from you, needs more of the oxygen, needs more of the time and the space to vent, needs more support, sometimes for months on end. If we are constantly weighing up the short term stats with that, you know, checklist of who did what last, I think you may incorrectly believe that they are being a bad villager. And that's not always true.

• 32:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Sometimes you have to be able to get that bird's eye view of over years and years, or even over decades of the flows that a relationship takes. Secondly, the second way you can be a villager is push back against your hyperindependence and ask for help. This is something I've, I've always struggled with and, you know, I'm a very independent person, classic, I know, eldest daughter, high achiever, don't need anyone type, moved out of home when I was like seventeen. I'm sure so many of you relate to this as well. It was a badge of honor to not need help with anything.

• 33:14Jemma Sbeg?

  What I've realized is that not letting people help me is actually doing both of us a disservice. I struggle more, I feel more in over my head. But it's also denying someone else the opportunity, they would like to show you that they love you in their way. You are denying sometimes their love language of acts of service, but also they wanna do this. This is, this is this weird thing. Letting people help you is more of a gift to other people sometimes. And so not letting them do that because you think it's, you think it's a, an annoyance to them means you're limiting them in a way.

• 33:52Jemma Sbeg?

  I think it's very, very hard to not feel like a burden when you ask people for help when you move or when you ask them to pick you up from the airport or to take you to doctor's appointments or, you know, get up early and give you a lift somewhere. But what I've found, and I want you to reflect on your own experiences here, is that

• 34:15Jemma Sbeg?

  Any times I have been asked that and I, somebody's asked me to do them a favour or to help them or to come early to the party. Oh my God, I'm, I feel such like a swelling in my heart. I'm, I get so excited. I'm like, I, they have trusted me. They must really love me. Our friendship must be like, really, really, they must think I'm a great friend. And that's a beautiful feeling. Being a villager isn't just letting others lean on you. It's leaning on them as well. And letting yourself be helped rather than isolating yourself further. Also, the more you maintain loyalty to your hyper-independence,

• 35:00Jemma Sbeg?

  the kind of, the more exhausted you're going to be. And that is not going to give you the mental energy, the cognitive energy to show up for others. So you have to be okay with saying, yes, I do need help and asking for help. And understanding that's a gift for both people. Number three, remember the times that you were tired and you went anyways. A really important part of accepting that friendship is going to be inconvenient is remembering that that inconvenience still brings with it a reward. Reflecting on your own memories and looking back in the past and distinctly keeping a bank of like times where you were like, I really don't want to go.

• 35:43Jemma Sbeg?

  This is going to be terrible and it was great anyways is so important for learning that association between sometimes being a little bit annoyed, sometimes being tired, too tired to go, you think, and actually being rewarded. And I don't want to say for that sacrifice, but rewarded for pushing through. Fourth tip, if you're really struggling with like building community, pick two non-negotiable social days a week. This is something I've been employing since moving to London. Consistently showing up despite your mood, just being in physical closeness to other people is a fantastic way to build the village, right?

• 36:24Jemma Sbeg?

  Back in the day, the village was really united by geographical closeness and people who lived next door to you and people who Traveled with you and were maybe nomadic with you or who were in the hot next door. Like, yes, we've lost that closeness with the increase in, I guess, individualism and how spread out we are across the world. But every community, neighborhood, suburb, city, still has those community hubs, still has gyms, pubs, libraries, choirs that you can go to. So having two days a week where you're like, this is my, this is the, this is my, the price I pay to be in community and these are the days I'm going to devote just to being

• 37:08Jemma Sbeg?

  out there is highly effective. I would also say number five, kind of similar to this. Actually, it's totally not. It's completely different, but I'm like, oh, because it has to do with community. No, it's different. But number five, um, if you're struggling, invite your friends to do chores with you. Sometimes having those two big social days a week, that is a lot for some people, right? And it's expensive. It's expensive, especially if you live in a big city, to go out and have to be, you have to buy drinks, have to pay for the movie tickets, have to go out for dinner twice a week. It's expensive. Dinner in London is like forty pounds at the moment. Like, doing that twice a week is sometimes not an option.

• 37:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Find those kind of more low effort things that you want to do with people. Chores are fantastic. Your ability to do chores with somebody, I think that that is a marker of whether you are good friends or not. Some of my best memories with my good friend Erin, it was when we lived in Canberra and we would just go to, what was it, the Dixon Grocery Store for hours. I had a terrible roommate at the time. Like, I really didn't want to be in the house. And we would just walk up and down and up and down those aisles. Sounds really lame, but you know what? Anything to be in closeness with somebody, I think, is amazing. Number six, remember to keep track of milestones.

• 38:33Jemma Sbeg?

  And consciously budget either time or money to make those milestones feel important for others.

• 38:43Jemma Sbeg?

  I just feel like we don't celebrate each other enough. And especially if you are like friends with a lot of really cool people who are always doing amazing things. Sometimes we forget that they still want to be celebrated and that we're all kind of little kids in a way who want somebody to remember our birthday. And who want somebody to remember our first day of school, our first day of a new job. And who want people to remember that like, hey, that was a really hard thing and I'm getting through it. And like that in itself deserves a reward. I think, I don't know, to speak from personal experience and to kind of break the fourth wall here, especially if you're watching on Netflix, like when Netflix, when this whole Netflix thing happened.

• 39:27Jemma Sbeg?

  It was kind of sad in a way because I felt like this huge thing was happening. And I was looking around for people to like celebrate with and some people who I really would have expected to be there for me and to want to celebrate with me for that um just weren't. And that really, that that hurt and that really stung. And I think having that experience has made me realise, hey, but am I doing that for others? And if I want to be part of the village, like I've got to be, sometimes you've got to set the example. And I think one of the greatest ways to show people that you care and that you listen is remembering just the smallest things.

• 40:08Jemma Sbeg?

  And every week putting ten, twenty, fifty dollars into into an account just for social money and just for milestone money and celebratory money. So that you can be a presence in somebody's life during their milestones. When they look back at the memory of a milestone, of a birthday, of an engagement, of a new job, of a new house. You are there and you are part of of their kind of life story. Okay, we're going to take one more short break here. But when we return, let's talk also about when a friendship is perhaps becoming too one sided. And when it's no longer inconvenience, it's a burden to be around those people. Stay with us.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 41:26Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on, and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is. Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 42:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year, and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 42:48Jemma Sbeg?

  No two journeys look alike. That's why SkyMiles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips, and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life. Dines with you on special nights out, it streams alongside your favorite entertainment, rides through your daily routines and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience. The miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access and it unlocks access to exclusive, one of a kind experiences and opportunities

• 43:33Jemma Sbeg?

  that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because Sky Miles is more than a travel program, it is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more. Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you.

• 43:56Jemma Sbeg?

  I know I said we talk about when it's maybe time to to kick somebody out of the village. But before that, one more tip because it has something to do with this. You gotta, you gotta fight more with your friends. I don't know what tip we're up to. Tip number seven. You have to voice frustrations and you have to learn how to fight with your friends. You deserve to fight with your friends. You deserve friends who will fight with you and for you, because those are the same things. When I was younger, I know so many people in the same conflict to me was like, that was the end. The first time somebody mentioned a grievance was the last time because the friendship was over. But having these little arguments, disagreements, sometimes having confrontation, I think nowadays shows that you care way more than those times that you just are like,

• 44:42Jemma Sbeg?

  you voice something and you're like, done, this friendship's over. Because when you get to that point of being like, I'm so frustrated by this, that saying it is the last word that I can say because I've already detached myself from this relationship in our mind, like that's not real friendship. Fighting with somebody when it's deeply uncomfortable and it's really, you don't know how it's gonna go. That shows dedication and I think that's what we all deserve versus the ghost, versus the fizzle.

• 45:12Jemma Sbeg?

  I think, again, I've said this on the podcast before, it is a real sign of emotional maturity and that is how I knew my frontal lobe had developed. And I had emotionally matured to another level was when I realised, like, again, if I have a problem, I, I find that the solution of saying it is the one that I will most likely pursue. It's just also, I think, the opportunity for a new beginning. And it's a way of kind of, I don't know, of relating to somebody else. And it's kind of like a bonding experience. The shift is so powerful, right? Like, one of the best things is having a fight with your friend. And then three weeks later, being able to be like, oh my God, remember that fight we had? And we moved through it and you stop treating every

• 45:57Jemma Sbeg?

  small thing, the things that come up naturally in friendships, like an emergency. You stop panicking and performing and people pleasing your way out of the discomfort. And instead you get curious. You start seeing it as information, like, okay, something is happening here. Something needs to be said. Something needs to change. Conflict is communication. It becomes the relationship showing you where your boundaries are, where your values are, where your needs haven't been spoken out loud yet. It's not a sign the relationship is broken. It's often a sign that it's becoming real and it's developing to a new level. I always say this as well, and I'm going to stop lingering on this after this point, I promise, but

• 46:39Jemma Sbeg?

  once you have had your first fight with a friend and you've survived that, that's when you can call them a real friend. I remember having my first big, like, falling out fight with my, one of my best friends in the world, Meg. And afterwards I was like, cool. So you're not ever going anywhere because if we got through this, we can get through anything. Let's return to what I was originally saying. When do you kick somebody out of the village? When is a friendship too inconvenient to keep up? Because there is a line and there's always going to be freeloaders in society and in the village who want the rewards without paying their social dues. I know I said not to keep score. I know I'm going to sound like a hypocrite.

• 47:22Jemma Sbeg?

  I know I said not to treat friendship like a point system, but there is a feeling you will get when you realise. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I'm the only one invested here. A few busy months, I'd let that slide. You know, I know I've had those really busy moments where I'm like, sorry, gals. I've got to cancel more plans than I can attend because I have to work and like, life is busy. And when you're the boss, like, that's kind of just the way it is. And I'm really glad my friends gave me grace for that. Life gets busy. We're adults. We know that. Also, people have different energy levels. People have caring responsibilities. People have health problems. Also important to know that about your friends. But it's when, and this is the distinction,

• 48:07Jemma Sbeg?

  when you find yourself doing things for them, they would never do for you. Or specifically, they have had the chance to do that for you and they haven't. It's not about cutting them off at that point, but having that conversation, setting expectations. Everyone can be unaware. Everyone can have a rough season. But if you have expressed that you feel taken for granted, or that you need more effort, they need to make plans, and they either dismiss you, guilt you, promise they change, to change, and then they never do, repeat the same behaviour. That's not a misunderstanding. You have been understood. That is a pattern. And patterns are what decide outcomes, not potential.

• 48:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Like I said, you want a village? Learn how to approach these hard conversations. And also learn that this maybe not, isn't necessarily the end. It might just be the beginning of a new way your friendship operates. But if they do something that you would never imagine doing to someone, to them, to a stranger, even to an enemy,

• 49:17Jemma Sbeg?

  it's not that this person doesn't deserve a village. They just don't deserve to be in yours. Your village has standards. And we're again, not talking about mild inconveniences. We're not talking about things we're apologetic for, but things that show a value mismatch, you're allowed to say, this is not what our village does. I can't have you here. Cheating on a partner, hurting somebody else, betraying somebody else, lying. A village runs on values. What ones do you personally want to see in others that you are committing to displaying yourself?

• 49:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Finally, the final criteria, I think, that a friendship has has gone too far, it's too too inconvenient, is when it creates more stress than safety. And that's a feeling that you will, if you've ever been in this situation before, you understand. Not every friendship needs to be deep, but it at least needs to be stable. If spending time with a friend feels like bracing for a terrible mood, managing their reactions, anticipating passive aggression, walking on eggshells, if it feels exhausting in like an emotional, soulful way, it stops being about companionship. I think it becomes a form of, like, you're regulating them, and that is exhausting.

• 50:39Jemma Sbeg?

  And if you find yourself avoiding situations, being really excited when they cancel plans, that is the biggest one. The moment you feel excited that somebody has canceled a plan, I think you need to place them elsewhere in your friend universe. And I I wrote about this in my book. Your friendship universe has three circles. The inner circle, the good, like, the the second circle and the third circle. Where someone sits in that circle determines essentially the nature of your relationship. The center of the circle, you should never be excited if somebody at the center of the circle cancels plans. Center of a circle, you should never be excited if they can't make it.

• 51:22Jemma Sbeg?

  Third circle, your expectations are a little bit different. They're still in, they're still in the galaxy. They just don't have to be a huge priority. You don't have to drop a friend, shift your expectations, shift their place in the friendship galaxy. Some final reminders before we go. Remember as well, I don't think I've spoken about this enough, but a village takes time if you don't have it yet, if it feels like you'll never have it. I have to remind you, everyone who has a village now, at some point, didn't have one. And at some stage felt like they would never have it. Sometimes you have to destroy the old for the new as well. You know, I thought I had a village at university.

• 52:06Jemma Sbeg?

  I didn't, and I was clinging to those people and trying to drag them into activities and into ways of engaging that I knew I enjoyed, but they weren't ever going to. And it just made me feel terrible about myself. When I got out of that environment, when I gave myself space and time to just think about what I wanted in friendship. You know, the way I thought about what I wanted in dating in Korea, it was very easy to separate myself and to understand that, you know, again, maybe the village I wanted didn't share the same values. Similarly, like, make sure you still have time for yourself. I know I placed this big emphasis on like recognizing selfishness in boundaries, clothing and

• 52:50Jemma Sbeg?

  not overusing the too tired excuse, but social burnout is still real, especially if you're adapting to a new way of showing up. My guideline for myself is always a day and a half or a day of alone time per week, nourishing alone time, just to make sure I'm not, you know, I'm pouring into my own cup as well. I want to be a good villager, a good villager has the patience and, and the time and the energy to do that. But we're all still learning, you know, we're all still learning our balances and I think getting corrections from friends is something you have to be open to. You also have to be open to, to doing that as well and just having patience and forgiveness for people. I really think that's what we need more of.

• 53:34Jemma Sbeg?

  Thank you so much for listening if you have made it this far. If you are listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below. What are your tips for being a, a good villager that maybe I haven't included? I would love to hear from you. Make sure you are following us on Instagram, TikTok. Remember, if you are listening to the podcast, we are now on Netflix. If you want to go and watch over there to get an even more intimate feeling. But I appreciate your interest in this topic. I appreciate you being as fascinated by this as I am. Until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. Good luck with the village. Good luck being a villager. We will talk very, very soon.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 54:52Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on. And it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is. Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 55:29Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know I'm such a data and information-driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable, personalized insights

• 56:12Jemma Sbeg?

  that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 56:33Jemma Sbeg?

  No two journeys look alike. That's why Sky Miles is designed to move with you wherever life takes you. Fly, it flies with you on new adventures, family getaways, business trips, and the moments that matter most. Earn, it earns alongside your everyday life. It dines with you on special nights out, it streams alongside your favorite entertainment, rides through your daily routines, and helps turn everyday moments into something more. Redeem, it helps you redeem for what's next. From spontaneous weekend escapes to the trip that you have been dreaming about, to upgrading your next trip to a premium cabin experience, the miles you've earned along the way can help take you further. Access, and it unlocks access to exclusive, one-of-a-kind experiences and opportunities

• 57:18Jemma Sbeg?

  that make membership feel rewarding long before takeoff and long after landing. Because Sky Miles is more than a travel program, it is a membership that moves with you. Fly farther, earn every day, redeem your way and access more. Because when your membership is as unique as you are, there's no telling where your next journey will take you. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy.

• 57:59Jemma Sbeg?

  All of their stuff just looks good on, and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com. I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know I'm such a data and information-driven person, and I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain.

• 58:43Jemma Sbeg?

  Is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable, personalized insights that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop. Hi, this is Jemma Sbeg. Taking care of yourself doesn't have to mean completely changing your routine.

• 59:28Jemma Sbeg?

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• 59:57Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.