Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 79: Sharpest Needle In The Tack

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 79: Sharpest Needle In The Tack. Georgia discussed the Collar Bomb Heist and Karen covered Jerry Brudos, the Shoe Fetish Slayer. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 00

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• 0:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.

• 0:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.

• 0:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magatha Christie, and so much more.

• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.

• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 1:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.

• 1:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:26Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

• 1:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Every Wednesday, we recap world shows with all-new commentary, updates, and insights. And as of this week, we have been doing those shows for 10 years.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Happy 10th anniversary to us, to you guys, to everybody.

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're recapping episode 79, A Little Baby, which we named sharpest needle in the tack, which is definitely something I said, I bet.

• 1:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That really sounds like a Georgia-ism.

• 1:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It does.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode came out July 27, 2017.

• 2:00Georgia Hardstark?

  OK, so let's listen to the intro of episode 79.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi. Welcome to My Favorite Murder.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the podcast where we tell you true crimes and horrible things that have happened to good people.

• 2:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And a little about ourselves sometimes when we...

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, just a touch. Just a touch about ourselves.

• 2:23Georgia Hardstark?

  When we feel like going on a tangent.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, which is every single episode for a minimum 49 minutes.

• 2:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but it's sprinkled throughout.

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Get ready. Oh, yeah. Also, we don't just keep it at the top. We'll put it in the middle and then also at the end.

• 2:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, listen.

• 2:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Look.

• 2:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Look and listen.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so we should probably start with the biggest announcement and the one that people constantly tweet us about and ask us about. Thank you for your interest. We are going on tour again and we are now going to announce the dates of our Australian and American tour. Are you ready to hear what we're doing?

• 3:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Australia, you know already, but we're adding a couple of shows, actually. So, New Zealand, Auckland is, there are still tickets available. It's on Wednesday, September 16th.

• 3:12Karen Kilgariff?

  September 6th.

• 3:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That says September 6th.

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Beginning of September. And then we're adding shows in Melbourne and Sydney because we have two shows in each and they sold, or one or they sold out. So, September 10th in Melbourne at the Comedy Theatre.

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Melbourne.

• 3:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Melbourne. And September 12th in Sydney, Australia, there's another show at the fucking Opera House.

• 3:33Karen Kilgariff?

  At the fucking Opera House.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  At the Sydney Opera House.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Side room.

• 3:38Karen Kilgariff?

  We're in the jazz room. No, I have no idea.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're actually in the bathroom. We're just gonna be in the bathroom.

• 3:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right. If you want to come and talk to us at the Sydney Opera House, we're gonna be loitering in the women's bathroom from 9 to 11.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's actually a chamber orchestra that night, but we'll be in the bathroom.

• 3:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm really excited about a lot of these cities and I won't say which ones I'm, I was about to say which ones I'm most excited about.

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That would be great to not, for you to not say what you aren't looking forward to.

• 4:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not gonna do that. Okay, what else do you have?

• 4:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You got nothing?

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, no, I have a thing or two.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's hear it.

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, it's all just like my rambling. But my brother was on a jury where someone died. It was like a race car guys on the street and they crashed into a car and killed someone. And as he was telling me, my seven year old nephew was like, yeah, and like giving me details. So I was like, okay, he knows about it. How cute would it be if I had, I recorded him talking about it in hometown? And so I was like, Micah, tell me what happened. And he was just like, well, someone died. It was so depressing that I was like, well, I'm okay.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Not playing that.

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's sad.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I don't think seven years, some, I'm, last night at a show I did, someone's like, oh, my nine and 10 year old nieces loved your show. And I was like, that's, I'm chilling. I don't think that's good at all.

• 4:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Nine and 10 year olds turn this off.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Can lose a couple of listeners.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Some awesome murderinos that were also backstage. One of the guys, I'm sorry, I can't remember your name. He goes, that's around the time I started getting interested in true crime. And then I was like, oh, okay. Okay, then I don't feel as bad.

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true, I guess, right?

• 5:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think for, for me, it was sixth grade. So, you know, kids are very advanced.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's like the, if, even though it's not true crime, it's like the rubbing up of it. The things are suddenly really interested in like scary movies and bad things. And actually, speaking of children, this girl named Sarah underscore Hall tweeted at us a photo of her nine year old sister. And she said she just named her own bat. She, I guess, was in baseball. She just named her own bat Ted Bunty all on her own.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, well, that's fucking incredible.

• 5:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's hilarious.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, Georgia so loves a pun.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I love a pun and I love a nine year old, you know, and I love baseball.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's everything you love.

• 5:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Love everything.

• 5:50Karen Kilgariff?

  If only that little girl had a vintage dress on while she did that.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Lose my mind.

• 5:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Later. Well, I got a tweet that I found very interesting. And it's like, this is the kind of, you know, conversations that we like to have. It was the Coastal Horizons Rape Crisis Center in Wilmington, North Carolina. Sent a tweet. So they basically said, hey, ladies, big fans of your podcast. However, we were disappointed to hear the unintentional victim blaming. Took place on the 20, uh, 2020 episode, re, uh, covering your drinks. The onus is never on the victim to stop an assault. We need to have a culture shift where instead of telling victims what to do or not to do, tell perps, hey, don't rape people.

• 6:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, drug is the number, uh, alcohol is the number one drug used to facilitate sexual assault, not roofies. Um, in parentheses, not saying it doesn't happen, but misinformation can unintentionally compound victims trauma. We are rape crisis center in Wilmington, um, North Carolina. And we frequently hear victims blaming themselves because they quote, did everything right. My friend watched my drink, et cetera, and they are still assaulted. So just wanted to let you all know, love your work. Which I think is such a good point.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  We obviously, and it's not like we need to make excuses, but when we were having that conversation, we were coming from that, that point of view, which is very, for me, it's very eighties of like, you have to, you have to like, you have to, um.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Be on the lookout at all times, kind of.

• 7:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, be on the defense and kind of like be aggressively, uh, you know, aware and all that kind of stuff. But it's such a good point that it doesn't matter. You can be the most aware, you can be the most, you know, responsible, all these things, and then something can happen to you.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And we never want people to feel like in any way, obviously, that that would be our messaging.

• 7:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Or that they're to blame, because that, that hurt me so much and made me sad of like, they come in there and feel to blame, maybe they didn't cover their drinks like we're telling them to do. Or, but the fact that she said, it's usually alcohol, not, it's just alcohol. It's not like they need to roofie you to, to take advantage or to assault you.

• 8:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. It's actually a very common thing that people use all the time that doesn't make anybody feel that worried in the beginning.

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the, yeah. Um, I think also we were having that conversation because it was around the time that that girl, uh, it was that thing that happened in Santa Monica where these women saw a guy put some, a drug into a girl's drink, and they basically went and got her in the bathroom and were like, we just saw this thing. So we were kind of going off of that in a way, but you know, thank you for the correction, because that's a really good point, and that really is, you know, please raise your sons not to rape. That would be great.

• 8:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that would be awesome.

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see the trailer for the movie My Friend Dahmer?

• 8:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 8:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not being paid.

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  We're not being paid. We should be.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to see it today.

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks so great.

• 8:53Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks so good. I love that there's not, it doesn't seem like there's anything about him being an older person and actually committing, is there? That's not what the book's about.

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't, I only, I don't think it is because I feel like I did read that comic book, the graphic novel.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But I can't remember the end. I mean, I, it's just the story of him, but I think it's him in high school and basically when it all started.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's going on the idea that you already know who Dahmer is and what he's done. And then, so while you're watching the movie, you're like, oh, this is the thing that made it happen. This is the thing that started it.

• 9:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's teenage Dahmer.

• 9:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks, and it looks so creepy and so eerie and.

• 9:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really ominous. They, they're, the very, one of the first shots in that.

• 9:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Trailer is kind of a wide of the front of a school and it's just kids in kind of like late seventies clothing, walking around. And then you just notice there's a guy just standing there staring and it's really fucking creepy.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It almost looks like if Napoleon Dynamite was like a scary movie.

• 9:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That's exactly fucking right. If you change the soundtrack to Napoleon Dynamite.

• 10:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I love when people, I love those, those, I love like the Mrs. Doubtfire as a horror movie. Have you seen that one?

• 10:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yo, yeah.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking love those.

• 10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Or The Shining as a rom com or like a family sitcom.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Or like a Coming Together. What's that song? Da da da da, da da da.

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, is it Shakira? Were you, were you singing Shakira?

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably.

• 10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Hips Don't Lie.

• 10:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  YMCA.

• 10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven.

• 10:24Speaker 04

  I think it's the Salisbury, the Peter Gabriel song, Salisbury Hill.

• 10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:28Speaker 04

  Something like that.

• 10:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Salisbury Hill.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Salisbury Hill. Okay. Cause I thought saying Salisbury was clearly going to be wrong. So I didn't say it.

• 10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You were scared to risk it.

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I see.

• 10:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Steak.

• 10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Got you.

• 10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Salisbury steak and all that.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that beautiful Peter Gabriel song? Uh, loading up on Salisbury steak.

• 10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that song. It's so like, there's those weird, I don't know what instrument it is, but it's like, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh, pooh. Yeah. Like he's blowing into a windpipe. Is that a thing? Or like, what was the ones you had to play as a kid? A recorder. I love Peter Gabriel. There might be a recorder solo at the beginning of Salisbury Hills. Salisbury steak. Salisbury steak. All of that is misinformation. That entirety of misinformation. Wait, what were we talking about? Oh, Jeffrey's over. Fucking. Napoleon Dynamite. If you have, if you're an editor, if you have the time. Yes. If you care, could you please make Napoleon Dynamite into? I bet. Into a scary movie with a soundtrack. I bet you could take the like trailer from Napoleon Dynamite.

• 11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Just put all of this, the exact same, um, like voiceover and words from the trailer for Dahmer. Just put them in there. So, yeah. So it's like Napoleon Dynamite's mouth is moving and that weird, like his braces are still on, but they're not. Mash it up. His friend, his friend is, um, his friend. Pedro? Pedro is the friend who wrote the book. Like, it's just perfect. It's perfect. Did you plan this? Yes, it's all written down. Oh, is it?

• 11:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me see those notes. Oh, man. Nothing I say is ever planned, obviously.

• 12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I never plan anything. We absolutely assure you that, uh, almost nothing is pre-written on this show. No. Even the things that are supposed to be. Yeah, like our stories. I think that's all I had. Um, did you have anything else? I'm sure I can, I have other things that I just can't think of. And, uh, oh, I keep writing things that I don't know. Like, I'll be like, oh, I should make a note for pre-show and then I don't know what it means. So I have Yan Can Cook written down.

• 12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yan Can Cook, I feel like is from when we were talking. I was watching it the other night and then I was like, I gotta talk to Karen about this. I don't remember why I would talk to you on a murder podcast about Yan Can Cook. Cause that guy fucking murders chicken. That guy is the best. Then I wrote embarrassing illness. I don't know what that means. That's probably Crohn's disease. Yeah. And then I wrote, stardust equals anxiety. Do you mean angel dust? I don't know. And I was like, I think I spelled, I wrote something wrong and I was like, I'll remember. Were you on drugs or drink? Yes.

• 13:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 13:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, yes to all.

• 13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, always.

• 13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, how do we figure any of those things out? You just take some time with it?

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I don't think we need to. I think as long as I say them.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 13:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And then everyone knows.

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Then if we're standing somewhere and a yang can't cook whatever comes by, we're both gonna be like, this is what it is.

• 13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And stardust equals anxiety is probably something really interesting.

• 13:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, there's a movie called Stardust.

• 13:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Is there?

• 13:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know, but why would I?

• 13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Stardust Memories is a Woody Allen movie. He would give you agita if you were.

• 13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. No, it's not that. I haven't watched that.

• 13:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Anxiety.

• 13:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it that we're all made of stardust and that makes you worried?

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's that, yeah. I think it's that, I think it's that I get anxious when I think of the entirety of the universe, but I don't know how that has to do anything with murder.

• 13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we talked about that one time.

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  We did?

• 13:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Cause I said, oh, it was when I said, um, did you see that picture from the Hubble telescope that showed universes and balls of gas?

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you were like, please don't do this.

• 14:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So I must've wanted to elaborate on that and I was, and I was on drink.

• 14:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think there's a movie or something called Stardust that you saw as a child and that you discovered why it gives you so much anxiety?

• 14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 14:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like trying, just generally trying to figure out worries is a fascinating podcast. Like what are you worried? Isn't that a podcast? I'm being sarcastic.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 14:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I got excited.

• 14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't you go, isn't your all people like?

• 14:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I think there is though.

• 14:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, just being, I think I'm worried about the universe. I can't remember how though.

• 14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I just am. I don't need to explain why. People get, everyone gets it.

• 14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I hope.

• 14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you need to explain why if you bring it up.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, that's really your only, the only thing.

• 15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I did. Stardust gives me anxiety.

• 15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not an explanation.

• 15:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And the enormity of the universe gives me anxiety.

• 15:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. All right.

• 15:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Um, should we do this? Yeah, I mean, I want to ask Steven who's going, but he's not trustworthy.

• 15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven just told me that he keeps getting it wrong, which sucks because you're big, you're like, I'm like, well, Steven knows.

• 15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no, he doesn't.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  I'm, I'm, I'm no longer a rock.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You were attacked, you were attacked by that Twitter account who was like, Steven, get it together. You've been wrong three times.

• 15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 15:37Speaker 04

  You know what it is? You know what I realized what it is? My brain was doing to me was it's like Karen, Georgia, Karen, like I'm doing that in my brain. So that's why I kept saying you would go first because in my mind, Georgia went last time, but she went last, last.

• 15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So you're not going, you're going Karen, Georgia, Karen, Georgia.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  Yes, but that's not.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, Georgia, Georgia, Karen, Karen, Karen.

• 15:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm just, my brain completely just fell apart at that moment.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So what can we do to fix this going forward?

• 16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We have two things that people have made us of how to tell.

• 16:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Like Twitter accounts?

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, remember the things they gave us at?

• 16:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, like a, a large abacus. Is Steven going to drive around with that in his car?

• 16:17Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we can leave it here, right?

• 16:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's your house.

• 16:21Speaker 04

  Flip a coin or?

• 16:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think you have it this week?

• 16:24Speaker 04

  It's Georgia. Yeah.

• 16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I thought so too.

• 16:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I really need it.

• 16:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven wouldn't buck it up.

• 16:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to put him, I want to rake him over the coals.

• 16:31Speaker 04

  I needed it.

• 16:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, you have five chances. You've used three.

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I just love the idea there's a Twitter account now attacking you because of the job.

• 16:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What's it called again? Who went first last week?

• 16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Who went first?

• 16:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, there was like, they were like sort of seven, like five days since accident or something.

• 16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I love it.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  They were like keeping track and that was like this many days since.

• 16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, should I give it ever? Elvis isn't dead, everyone.

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, you should definitely give that up.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So last week I talked about how Elvis was at the vet and how scary it was. Turns out the kitten we got, Dottie, gave everyone a fucking crazy infection, an upper respiratory infection. I thought, I really truly thought Elvis was going to die and I had my cry and I, you know, apologized to him and held him like truly, and he's better now. He's on the mend. He's not going to die. But he lost his voice. So cute. You have, before you leave, you have to see him open his mouth to meow.

• 17:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And nothing comes out.

• 17:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So maybe Dottie will have to do the sign off.

• 17:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see the fan art that people made of Elvis in, in front of a black background? And it just says, I survived on the side. And then in quotes, and it's the first time I saw it in quotes, it says, yeah, so this kitten tried to kill me. Dot, dot, dot, or something like that. The first time I saw it, I almost had a heart attack. I was like, if she sees it, she's going to fucking shit a brick. Cause it was, he was still not out of the woods yet.

• 17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was hilariously awful where I was like, I think I'm going to have to ask these people to take it down.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't see, oh my God, if he died ever. Yeah. So thank you.

• 18:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Ever.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone. They, everyone was so sweet and.

• 18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and said nice things and reassured me. And yeah, he, the vet was like, he's not going to die. Calm down. So thanks, Village Vet.

• 18:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Good update.

• 18:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All is well.

• 18:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Positive updates.

• 18:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're back.

• 18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  We are back.

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi. We announced a tour.

• 18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Man, we really, to Australia.

• 18:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's so weird that that was so long ago and we're just gearing up for it in this episode.

• 18:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a very like, I know we've said this and kind of like jumbled our way through it a bunch of times, but it is that time is a flat circle feeling where you're just kind of like, it does not feel like 10 years. And then it also feels like 50 years. And when you think, I think back about Australia, it feels like that was 25 years ago. Like it was such an amazing memory and experience and like.

• 19:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So great, but also so much has happened. It's just so weird.

• 19:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Isn't it crazy to think about how old those children who we were like, you should not be listening to the podcast. When you're nine, how old they are now.

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, they're in college or close to it?

• 19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Close to college.

• 19:27Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, super partying seniors?

• 19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and that's the age when I hear someone say they have like a teenage daughter and she's rebelling or whatever. I always want to be like, give her our book, or let us, let her listen to the podcast, but not nine-year-olds.

• 19:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Nine just feels a little bit like, let them have a little more of the innocent ears before they have to deal with this shit, if possible.

• 19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's hard enough as an adult to fucking, to like, understand or to try to wrap your head around true crime.

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, but.

• 19:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, this was the episode where we got corrected, like, one of the first, in my memory, one of the first kind of big, important moments in the actual conversation, not just you and I talking, but then getting feedback and engaging with it from the Coastal Horizon Center. And that whole discussion, which I think unknowingly, the way we engaged with that and handled it is the reason we did well with this podcast. And basically, it was like, of course, we did something wrong. We don't know what we're doing. We're just talking about stuff. And this idea of like, pointing out a thing that's really important in narrative setting for the way people look at these problems in society is

• 20:41Karen Kilgariff?

  so important. And, you know, it was like, you don't want anyone to think you have bad intentions. But then it's like, you don't have to sit in that. You can walk past that to like, apology and correction. And it's great.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And then do better moving forward. Yeah.

• 20:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 20:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I do really like that aspect of this podcast, or us, I guess, as not being like, our antiquated way is the right way and we will fight it to the fucking death. Like, that's not true. We're always all learning and growing, or we should be.

• 21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 21:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Hopefully, that's how you like, you know, live a better life, I think. And so, I'm glad we did that. I'm glad that they called us out on it because it's so true. It's like, Yeah, we're bending over backwards to like, keep ourselves safe. And that isn't the prob- like, we're not the problem.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  But-

• 21:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely. And I think there's the thing too of like, the tone of like, cover your drinks. It was like, in our desperation to feel like it was our job to warn people.

• 21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the line. And then it's like, yeah, don't warn them so much that it's always their fault, their responsibility on them.

• 21:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Oh, you didn't cover your drink? What, like, then it's somehow you're at fault for what happened, which is so not the case. And, you know, that's a really great example that just one person listening hears that and internalizes something that happened to them that they are not responsible for at all.

• 22:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty incredible.

• 22:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, then we go from that to an Elvis health scare.

• 22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  He was so old. That old cat.

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He wasn't that old yet. He wasn't old enough yet. I remember saying to him, dude, just get me to 16.

• 22:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, how old? I thought he was in his teens.

• 22:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He prob- yeah, I guess it was like, I don't know, I think he was like 11 or 12 then.

• 22:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 22:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So, to me, that's not that old, but-

• 22:31Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I guess it is.

• 22:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Poor little sweet Dottie just like, fucking came in with influenza, the Black Death, and made everyone violently ill. Like, no wonder Mimi fucking hates her now. She's like, bitch, you almost killed me. But Dottie's made out for her by being the sweetest fucking cat on the planet.

• 22:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she's very sweet. Also, I think Mimi would have had a problem no matter what. She's just using the flu as an excuse.

• 22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're mad, you're mad.

• 22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, if she had killed Elvis, like, could I have kept Dottie?

• 23:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's pretty, it's heavy to say she killed him. It's like, it's the way it all germs work.

• 23:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course. And I'm totally kidding. I would never-

• 23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You're kind of saying in the Flowers in the Attic way of, would you have been evil to that cat? Because you would always secretly somehow blame her.

• 23:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, my friend said to me recently, because Mimi's getting older, she's having health problems, and we were like, presented with this really complicated way that she could be helped. And I was like, I don't, she's so fragile. I don't think she can deal with this. I don't think she should like, go through it. And then my friend goes, you'd have done it for Elvis.

• 23:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, how dare you? And then she goes, however, wait, what did she say? She said, oh, you would have pet cemetery'd Elvis, so it's not really the same thing.

• 23:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there's nothing like your first pet. It's just a whole different, it's a whole different thing, but.

• 23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm not not getting her taken care of. I promise you this, I'm doing everything I can for her.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like Mimi is just the female Elvis. And Mimi's been in my, I started reading the book when Elvis and Mimi were like neck and neck. It was just like, then he, it was like, suddenly he was at peril and it felt like Mimi, although in a bad mood, wasn't, we weren't gonna lose her.

• 24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course not, but he'd always been number one.

• 24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he really had.

• 24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 24:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, look, it's your firstborn son.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, awesome. Yeah, you know what I mean? Not that I would do anything for Mimi, but it's true. I would fucking pet cemetery Elvis.

• 24:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very brave of you to keep friends around her to be that honest with you. So that's, you're right in your.

• 24:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She can't hear anything anymore, so it's okay.

• 24:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's the thing. Old pets, God, we could talk about it forever.

• 24:49Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Oh, this story that I did, this episode is just a classic. And it's so confusing. The collar bomb heist, remember?

• 24:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes, yes, yes.

• 25:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's such a like, all over the place story. I'm excited to hear myself cover it.

• 25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, well, let's do it right now. Let's get into Georgia's story about the collar bomb heist.

• 25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are right around the corner, which means people are about to do a lot of shopping.

• 25:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you have a small business, they could be shopping with you.

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your business ready with Shopify.

• 25:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Shopify is the platform for a record breaking, reliable holiday selling season at every stage.

• 25:28Georgia Hardstark?

  They power millions of businesses worldwide, from household names to those that are just getting started.

• 25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Shopify's pre-built website themes make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional looking store without ever touching a line of code.

• 25:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And Shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere, from tracking inventory to customer support to handling payments and more.

• 25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/murder to start your free trial.

• 25:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Shopify.com/murder.

• 25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to Shopify.com/murder today to hear your first.

• 25:58Speaker 05

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• 26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 26:32Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 26:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.

• 26:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.

• 26:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 27:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 27:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Hatch Sleep Clock.

• 27:08Karen Kilgariff?

  The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  Goodbye.

• 27:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so I go first. I just forgot. All right. This is the story of the collar bomb heist. Okay, awesome. You don't know it? I don't even really know what you just said. Okay. It's the story of the collar, so a collar bomb, meaning like a collar around your neck. Collar bomb. Is this a woman and her daughter? No. Okay. Heist. Okay. And I just want to up top say that there is an article called In Wired by Rich Shapiro that has a really good overview of everything that happened. So I used a lot of his information and I just wanted to give him props for that. And it happened, he wrote it in 2010, so there's a little bit of updates since then. Great.

• 28:00Georgia Hardstark?

  But, so, we're in Erie, Pennsylvania. I looked this up on my favorite murder email to see if anyone had talked about it. And it's from their town and a girl named Jessica A. said, "The winters are terrible and the summers are filled with water sports on the lake and lots and lots of drinking. In fact, you will find either a church or a bar at every corner."

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 28:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I think describes the town really well.

• 28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. "August 28, 2003, at 2:28 PM, a 46-year-old local man named Ryan Wells walks into a PNC bank in Erie and passes the teller a note. The note says, 'Gather employees with your access, with access codes to the vault and work fast to fill the ba, this bag with $25,000. You only have 15 minutes.'" Then he lifts his shirt to show the teller a handcuff-like collar attached to his neck. And according to the note, it's a bomb.

• 28:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, fuck.

• 28:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And the bomb's like a DIY homemade device. It's got a metal collar attached around Wells's neck, like a handcuff. And there are two, there were keyholes and a combination lock, as well as baking timers and two 6-inch pipe bombs.

• 29:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. Baking timers?

• 29:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  You mean like the white ones that you turn that your mom's like, "You have five minutes sitting in that chair?"

• 29:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that it's never used for baking. It's for fucking punished baking. It's for punishing your children.

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly. Or just being like, "Oh, I have to do something in 10 minutes."

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Set that timer.

• 29:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody bakes.

• 29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, okay, how disturbing as you're that, you're that teller. You stayed up really late the night before, drinking wine with your friends. You roll in, you're like, "I'm gonna power through this day."

• 29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'll be fine.

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  "'Cause I'm gonna go out drinking with my friends again."

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And a guy walks up, I imagine sweating profusely.

• 29:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And like, if a guy walks up to you and you're a teller and passes you a note, you're like, "Fuck." It's not gonna say like, "Hey, how are you?" Next, it's, "I lost my voice. I'm Elvis, I lost my voice."

• 29:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, I'm Elvis. I'm here to rip off some cookies.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, it's all bad, always bad with the note.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, always bad with the guy that has to pull up his shirt to prove a point.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's like, clearly there's something bulging in his shirt collar.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And he has, he has a shirt on.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  His neck is really thick.

• 30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It looks, I bet it would look like he has like a trach, trache, trache.

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Tracheotomy.

• 30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Tracheotomy, kind of. It kind of looked like that. Um, and he has like two shirts on and the shirt over it. And it says, the shirt says Guess. It's like a Guess brand shirt.

• 30:28Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 30:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is like, it's the.

• 30:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you being sarcastic?

• 30:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I fucking swear to God. I fucking swear.

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Stop hypothesizing and let me tell the story.

• 30:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, please, that's the show.

• 30:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Just the, the visual of like that, but like the jerry rigged baking timer. And then, but there was also a couple magnetic letters from his refrigerator. And I mean, you know what I mean? And a pipe cleaner and some old gum.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Stuck to the, okay.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know who the victim is. I don't know who's guilty. And I'm saying things like that.

• 30:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it's okay. Cause here we go.

• 30:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so the teller's only able to give Brian $8,700 because there isn't a way to get into the vault at that time. Like there wasn't enough people there.

• 31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So the baking timer goes off.

• 31:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you suddenly smell cookies.

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And Elvis is like second in line, hey.

• 31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Excuse me, those are mine.

• 31:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Pulls a cookie out of his neck handcuffed.

• 31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And says, thanks for doing business with them.

• 31:22Georgia Hardstark?

  But he does do, and I'm not fucking kidding. He takes the money and leaves and he grabs a dum dum lollipop on his way out.

• 31:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Puts it in his mouth.

• 31:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So he's not as stressed as maybe.

• 31:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what you would think.

• 31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Or he's really stressed and he needs something to occupy him.

• 31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I relate.

• 31:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Doubtful though.

• 31:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I just feel like if you think you're about to blow up.

• 31:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And look, I love candy. I don't think it would be.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, oh dum dums. Oh my God.

• 31:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I, you know, when you get these for Halloween, you get like 10 of them at a time.

• 31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You stuff them all in your mouth at once. Cause then it's like a real lollipop.

• 31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I would eat, just eat it fast and then use the stick as a cigarette.

• 32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Just stand around fake smoking.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Look how good I look smoking.

• 32:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys.

• 32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, all right.

• 32:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe that guy needed a cigarette and he knew that was the closest.

• 32:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what it is. And he was like, I probably can't smoke around a bomb. Those things probably don't go hand in hand.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  There might be gasoline in this.

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. I don't know how bombs are made. You pour gasoline on them? I don't know. About 15 minutes after he walks out, state troopers spot Brian Wells, that's his name, standing outside of his, guess what kind of car he has? If you get this right, I'm gonna barf.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it a Le Mans?

• 32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's that.

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. It's like some kind of pseudo fancy car?

• 32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's a Geo Metro.

• 32:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, remember those? Second only to the Yugo in bad cars.

• 32:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's for you young kids. It's just, it's just like the first hatchback and those aren't cool.

• 32:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a Fiat that gave up on itself.

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like an 80s hatchback.

• 32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  But this is 2003. I don't know. So.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, he had a Geo Metro in 2003?

• 33:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe he was an antique shitty car collector.

• 33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know what he actually was?

• 33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  A pizza delivery man.

• 33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So you can see a pizza delivery man having that car.

• 33:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but the tires have absolutely no tread on them.

• 33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're like all, what's the ones in the back?

• 33:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, like the replacement tires?

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're all replacements. Yeah, they're all spares.

• 33:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Four spares on a Geo Metro.

• 33:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, we're making fun of this guy, but it'll be okay and you'll find out why.

• 33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, you'll find out why at the end. It actually gets really fucking bad.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I bet it gets bad.

• 33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It gets really bad.

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So they apprehend him, they cut his hands behind his back, and then Brian says to them that while out on a pizza delivery, he had been attacked by a group of black men, because that's everyone's excuse, who claimed, who chained the bomb around his neck at gunpoint and forced him to rob the bank.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, that's how it's done.

• 33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  He says, it's gonna go off. I'm not lying.

• 33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like desperate at this point. It's gonna go off. I'm not fucking lying.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just say one thing?

• 34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, always.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I, my first agent in this business, who was a, who was a mastermind and a genius. One of the first pieces of advice she ever gave me was, whatever people explicitly state to you for, without you asking them, is a lie. Just immediately reverse it in your head of...

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Like saying?

• 34:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Like if I went to a meeting at a management place and they were like, "Look, we don't just take whoever and like throw it all against the wall and see what happens." It's like, "Oh, you just take whoever and throw it against..." Is that kind of thing where you just have to kind of, why would you proclaim this to me if it were true?

• 34:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And I didn't even ask you.

• 34:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Or say, "I'm not lying."

• 34:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That means I'm lying.

• 34:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Why would you need to tell people that if you have a live bomb on your body or that just happened to you?

• 34:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like probably sociopaths say, "I'm not lying" a lot because they don't expect people to believe, they don't expect people to be smart enough to be like, "I know that that's a line that people say" to get them like, and they just don't think anyone's smart.

• 35:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true. I would think that they would be the kind of people who wouldn't, saying, "I'm not lying" is almost just like a try. And I don't think they try them.

• 35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Or they know the tells.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  They're just like so balls out. Yeah, that they're just like, "I'm not nervous, therefore you're never gonna ask me a question in the first place."

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And if you ask me, I'm gonna tell you, "Yeah, okay, you're gonna believe me." All right, "I'm not lying." So the officers call the bomb squad and they take their positions behind their cars, their guns are drawn, and they leave Brian sitting in the middle of the street, cross-legged, handcuffed behind his back with his bomb around his neck. And he's in the middle of the road, just sitting there. Okay, there's a video of all this and... Okay, I'll tell you in a second.

• 35:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 35:43Georgia Hardstark?

  For 25 minutes, while news crews, news people are filming there, they...

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  He's lying in the street?

• 35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He's sitting cross-legged in the street.

• 35:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 35:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of like slumped in the street. He's kind of fidgeting and stuff. So they're sitting there for 25 minutes, then out of nowhere, the device starts to beep.

• 36:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-uh.

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Beep, beep. And you see him, it's all on video. You see him kind of look down and start to struggle, like he's trying to get away from the collar. And then it fucking goes off.

• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 36:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No!

• 36:15Georgia Hardstark?

  The video, there is video on this and they don't warn you that they're about to show it. And so I saw it and I got really, and having to look this up and look at video and news stuff, I, I just kept having to turn my head away because it's so awful.

• 36:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's horrifying.

• 36:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And he fucking dies.

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's horrifying.

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So you know this guy dies and you see this bomb go off. And people were really watching it live and see this happen.

• 36:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 36:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I'm so surprised.

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Um, I, he, he looked surprised too that it was even going off, meaning I don't think he thought it was real. Um, and it detonates, loud explosion blowing into his face. He falls back onto the ground. Um, he dies almost instantly, I believe. The bomb had ripped a huge hole in his chest. Three minutes later, bomb squad arrives.

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. So they, when, later the police searched his car and they find handwritten notes that were addressed to the bomb hostage. And they say, one of them says, there's only one way you can survive, and that is to cooperate completely. This powerful booby trapped bomb can be removed only by following our instructions. Act now, think later, or you will die.

• 37:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, handwritten notes to this guy?

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So it's basically their handwritten notes to the guy, to Brian.

• 37:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought that meant his handwritten.

• 37:34Georgia Hardstark?

  No, yeah, someone else had written these notes to him. They were in his car. So they, the police had caught him. It was almost like a scavenger hunt, but he had to rob the bank, then go to these certain places to get uh, the keys, give them the money, that sort of thing.

• 37:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 37:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So, but police had caught him in the middle of the scavenger hunt. Uh, so they tried to finish the uh, scavenger hunt themselves and find the notes. But someone had removed the remaining notes after Brian had been killed. So they found the places where they were supposed to be, but there wasn't anything else there.

• 38:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And sorry, was that, um, like the video you watched or whatever, was that shown live on the news?

• 38:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It had to have been because people were talking about having watched it.

• 38:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 38:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Saying they're, they're kids probably. And it was at like three o'clock something. So there must've been kids after school watching that.

• 38:20Karen Kilgariff?

  A hundred percent.

• 38:20Georgia Hardstark?

  How traumatized were those children?

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the worst.

• 38:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I watched it and I was fuck, I am a little fucked up from it.

• 38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you can't like, yeah, it's that kind of shit. You have to be so, so careful.

• 38:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And prepared for.

• 38:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:33Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. They traced Brian's last pizza delivery on the day of his death, which is when he said he got attacked. They found that his last order was to be delivered on the outskirts of the city at a local, at a location of, it ended up being a TV transmission tower where the address was. And they could tell by the scuff marks in the dirt that that's where the collar had been attached. But he was supposed to be off right before that call came in to order the pizzas, which was kind of mysterious. All right. Then, cut to September 20th, less than a month after the bomb killed Brian. 59-year-old Bill Rothstein, who was a handyman and lifelong resident of the area, calls 911. He gave the operator his address and told him there was a frozen body in his garage freezer.

• 39:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 39:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He told him that. What he, the story, his story was that in mid-August, his ex-girlfriend, Marjorie Deal Armstrong, had called him and told him she had shot her live-in boyfriend, James Roden, in the back with a Remington 12-gauge shotgun in a dispute over money. And then she asked him to help her clean up and move the body, which he agreed to. And so the body had been in his freezer for five weeks. He also melted down the gun and scattered the pieces around the county.

• 39:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 39:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Thorough.

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Thorough.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you melt down a gun?

• 39:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even fucking know. Power tools? I think he was, he was a handyman. Yeah. He's a handyman, so he probably knows a lot about.

• 39:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He had some fucking welding thing or whatever.

• 40:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably put some, like, I don't know, you know, there's some powder you can probably put on something to make it flammable.

• 40:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I think, I've seen things where if you put Diet Coke on a piece of meat.

• 40:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, why do I, stop it. I got so excited. Isn't that a thing?

• 40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It is. But I'm sure it doesn't melt guns. I'm almost positive.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's try it.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's see.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, get your gun out. Just shoots both of us. Wouldn't that be hilarious? They told me, I have it on tape.

• 40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a weird ending to that podcast because everyone liked Steven.

• 40:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Now we're wondering.

• 40:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But it turns out he really didn't like those girls.

• 40:36Georgia Hardstark?

  But is it just fictional, the whole podcast? Now we have to go back and listen again.

• 40:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole thing was a play.

• 40:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And we have to write down all the times we yelled at Steven.

• 40:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Slowly building the rage in Steven.

• 40:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And you can hear him breathing in the background harder and harder every week.

• 40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, he has both hands over his face, laughing like a little.

• 40:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Bright red.

• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Little Japanese girl, just giggling, giggling.

• 40:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, um, okay. So he tells them he just couldn't go with the final plan, which was to grind the body up. So he called 911. He was afraid of what she might do to him. So he says he was so distraught that he had even considered killing himself rather than turning himself in. And he had written a suicide note in which he said who the body was in the freezer. When he didn't kill him, it says, nor participate in the death. And then the note ended with, this has nothing to do with the Wells case.

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  For no reason, says that in the note. Cause he lived behind the TV transmission spot.

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh oh.

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, now, look at my theory, how it's been completely reversed right in my face.

• 41:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is what now?

• 41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This, it's the, the first guy going, the victim saying, I'm not lying in the my theories. That's because he's lying. Well, then this guy saying this has nothing to do with it.

• 41:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Out of nowhere. Like he hadn't even been questioned about it.

• 41:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't bring it up.

• 41:59Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 42:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But BTW, no.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So obviously my, what my research reveals is that there's no hard and fast rule.

• 42:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Statements.

• 42:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Or is there?

• 42:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Or we are not done yet.

• 42:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 42:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Twists and turns all over at that place. They made a movie, the movie 30 minutes or less.

• 42:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 42:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That came out like 2011.

• 42:22Karen Kilgariff?

  My friend Ruben Fleischer directed that.

• 42:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, nice. Well, they think it's like loosely based on this. So there'll be twists and turns.

• 42:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 42:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't worry. I haven't seen it. So I don't really know. But, um, all right. So here's a little bit about Marjorie, the woman who killed her boyfriend. So in 19, she's fucking, in 1984, she's 35. She's charged with murdering her then boyfriend, Robert Thomas. Rob Thomas, isn't he from Matchbox 20?

• 42:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's just hitting. She claims she shot him six times in self-defense. As you know how you shoot someone six times in self-defense?

• 42:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Well, just to really finish it off.

• 42:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Just to kill the shit out of them.

• 42:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She's very OCD. She wanted to finish all the bullets in the gun.

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, this is the same woman who had the body in the freezer?

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, this is the body in the freezer woman.

• 43:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a different relationship.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 43:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Years before.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 43:08Georgia Hardstark?

  A jury acquits her. And then four years later, her husband, Richard Armstrong, dies of the cerebral, cerebral hemorrhage.

• 43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope.

• 43:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, those two words together can't. Cerebral hemorrhage.

• 43:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And but he, when he got to the hospital, he had had a head injury. But the death is still ruled accidental and never followed up with by the coroner. Which head injuries and cerebral hemorrhaging don't go, that's not a thing.

• 43:34Karen Kilgariff?

  They do, they don't go together?

• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. Cerebral hemorrhaging means your brain is bleeding, which means someone hit you really fucking hard on the head. Or something.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't hemorrhaging just happen though, too? Like the way when people have a stroke or something like that?

• 43:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I do, I, I feel, I, look, look.

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Look and listen.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Neither of us are gonna claim we're right. My, my assumption as the, as a doctor is, no, I just think hemorrhaging, hemorrhaging can happen in any kind of a way. It's not specific to just like an aneurysm. An aneurysm is when you're like a vessel in your brain explodes and then usually you die.

• 44:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So yeah, hemorrhaging, that sounds right. Okay.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Do we, please, doctors?

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 44:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Please tell us how to do this podcast.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  The best way to let us know about something is to scream at us on Twitter. I just want everyone to know that's the only time we listen.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Is screaming on Twitter.

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  With our hearts.

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We're doctors. Let's see. Uh, death is ruled accidental. So Marjorie is like extremely smart, but she suffers from bipolar disorder and she's found to be paranoid and narcissistic. In 1984, they found 400 pounds of butter and more than 700 pounds of cheese rotting inside her house.

• 44:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  This is from the Wired article. Can I repeat this? 400, so I think she was a hoarder. So 400 pounds of butter. How much is that?

• 44:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So much. Well, a pound of butter is the four cubes.

• 45:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's a pound of butter. So.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So she had 400 of those.

• 45:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And 700 pounds of cheese.

• 45:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's just a dream come true.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, what kind of cheese? If we're talking about fucking crap singles, I'm out.

• 45:14Karen Kilgariff?

  If she had it stored somewhere, it's Velveeta because you can, you can leave that like in a warm room for two years and nothing will happen.

• 45:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's plastic. Could I tell you what Vince made me for dinner last night? Because I was like, oh, I forgot to tell you this too. Damn it. Can I get on a gross food tangent? Okay, so last night Vince, Vince brought home, he did the thing of I've been craving this thing from childhood and I was like playing along like, I'll try it with you, baby. So he made me a baloney and American cheese sandwich on white bread.

• 45:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 45:42Georgia Hardstark?

  With mustard.

• 45:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I used to have them every single day.

• 45:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It was great. We never had, like, we never got to have any of that good stuff.

• 45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So I had.

• 45:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Nitrate.

• 45:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So yeah, sometimes he'll fry up the baloney.

• 45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 45:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. But what happened, and this is just, I'm explaining who Vince is, on like Saturday, I picked him up after a thing and we were both hungry and I was like, where should we go? And I always am like, no, I don't want to go there. And like, we go where I want to go. But he was like, he was like, this place, this place or this place. And I was like, okay, baby, you pick which. I was being nice. Like, I'm just trying to not be a fucking asshole anymore.

• 46:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Good, good. Yeah. Putting in that effort.

• 46:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So we went to the Olive Garden for brunch on Saturday.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you feel about that?

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  All I see is like a bunch of Italian spices mixed into shit that I don't want there. That's the first thing I think of.

• 46:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You are 100% correct. He ordered, they had a thing called an Italian margarita. He ordered it. The guy at the bar was just like such a sassy, funny person. And he put it in front of the margarita, he put a margarita in front of him and then he put down a little like shot glass of Amaretto and he goes, that's what makes it Italian.

• 46:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I was just like, oh, I love you. It was so great. But they have a nice little soup and salad deal. Anyways, at the end.

• 46:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Autumn was breadsticks, right?

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  The salad's actually good. On the way out, a girl stops me and she goes, don't I know you? And I did the, oh, searching for my brain. And she goes, just kidding, I'm a huge fan.

• 47:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So she was a waiter, a waitress there and she was just like, really cool.

• 47:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 47:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 47:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 47:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I got recognized at the Olive Garden. Because I was at the Olive Garden.

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes. Because when you're there, you're family.

• 47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I was family.

• 47:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 47:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So thank you.

• 47:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't I recognize, you're my aunt.

• 47:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, hi.

• 47:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, hi.

• 47:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice to see you.

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, Carol. Oh, all right. 700 pounds of cheese rotting inside her house.

• 47:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Oh, sorry.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 47:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you can't even get that from a store. It's not like you can go to an Indivance or whatever your local chain is called and be like, that's all the butter that they have for the month, essentially.

• 47:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And they, yeah.

• 47:51Karen Kilgariff?

  What's she doing? Do you know how she got it?

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 47:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Nothing about it. It's rotting.

• 47:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 47:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine the smell? Like, does butter even rot?

• 47:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It does. Like, it turns, but it takes a long time.

• 48:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you can leave it out on the counter and it won't go bad for a while.

• 48:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 48:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We always refrigerate our butter, which I hate.

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Cold butter? You can put it on a plate, as long as it's covered on the counter. What are we talking about?

• 48:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't fucking know. Someone is dead.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Someone is so many people are.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All right. So, I wrote "so" in capital because I think I knew we were gonna go on the standard. So, back to the, okay. In fact, when preparing to be tried in the shooting death of her first ex, psychiatrists deemed her mentally incompetent seven times before they finally ruled she was allowed to be tried, which I feel like seven times means you are not ever gonna be mentally. And that's such a hard thing to do because everyone's like, "I'm mentally ill. That's why I killed this person."

• 48:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to get out of it.

• 48:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and they're like, bullshit.

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But, sorry, they kept on saying she was mentally incompetent and couldn't stand trial. And then they finally were like, "Wait, no, on the eighth time, she is?"

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  She's better now.

• 48:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, got it.

• 48:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But yeah, that's ridiculous.

• 48:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I wrote, "So, on September 21st of 2003, Marjorie "Dee" Armstrong is arrested for the murder of her most recent ex, the freezer guy, James Roden.

• 49:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  She pleads guilty but mentally ill, but she's still sentenced to seven to 20 years in state prison for that murder. Three months after she goes to prison in April, federal of 2005, so I might have the dates wrong, federal agents investigating the collar bomb mystery, they're still like, "What the fuck happened?" The handwriting analysis of the fucking notes are baffled. They just don't understand why this scavenger hunt was part of it. It doesn't make any sense to them.

• 49:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 49:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They're called, uh...

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  They are called from the state police officer who has just met with Marjorie in prison. She tells them that the murder of her most recent ex-boyfriend actually had nothing to do with money, but instead was part of the color bomb plot. So they didn't even know she was involved at this point.

• 49:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She just came forward with that?

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  She says-

• 49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's like, can I just exchange that piece of information for a stick of butter? I just want to put it under my pillow.

• 50:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They only have Marjorie in here.

• 50:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's driving me insane. I need some rotten butter.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, well, what she actually wants, besides just butter, is a transfer from the state pen where she's in to a minimum security spot much closer to Erie. And if they do that, she'll tell them everything she knows. So she begins by telling them that she was not, of course, I'm not involved in any way in the plot, but she admits that she knew about it and that she supplied the kitchen timers.

• 50:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's the baker or the punisher of children.

• 50:37Karen Kilgariff?

  When they were trying to fingerprint that kitchen timer, they were just like, there's no fingerprints, but it is coated in butter. There's like so much butter all over it.

• 50:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We need to find the butter culprit.

• 50:50Karen Kilgariff?

  The butter bomber.

• 50:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Butter bomber. It's even better, butter. She tells them that the actual mastermind behind the whole plot was Bill Rothstein, the dude who lived behind the TV tower who turned her in for murder. But Bill Rothstein had died of lymphoma about a year earlier in July 2004, so they can't fucking question him. She also tells the feds that Brian Williams wasn't just the victim, but had been in on the planning from the beginning.

• 51:15Karen Kilgariff?

  The guy that actually blew up in the bomb?

• 51:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 51:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Twists and turns.

• 51:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Keep talking.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So he did, what he said, I'm not lying. He was lying. You were right.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, thank God.

• 51:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why I was like, hold up.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That theory was right twice.

• 51:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, um, okay. So according to Marjorie, Brian Wells, the victim, had agreed to rob the bank, wearing what he thought was a fake collar bomb. The scavenger hunt, he was told, was simply a ruse to fool the cops. If he got caught, he could say, like, well, look at these instructions as evidence that he was only following orders. But at some point, Brian Wells, and you don't hear this phrase very often, is double-crossed.

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  The fake bomb is switched out to be a real one, which he didn't know until it was strapped to his neck. They held him down at gunpoint. Because when he got to the TV station with the pizzas, he realized it was real and tried to run and they grabbed him and held him down at gunpoint.

• 52:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, wait. So did he not know, is it Marjorie?

• 52:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Marjorie and the guy?

• 52:16Georgia Hardstark?

  The guy of Lymphoma.

• 52:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Rothstein. He didn't know them before? He knew them. They had all planned this thing and agreeing that it was going to be a fake bomb.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So he drove there as if it's like, I'm delivering pizzas to this place?

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. The whole thing is him being tricked. He was in on that, thinking it'd be a fake bomb.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  They are like, it's a real bomb, get over here.

• 52:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It all falls together, because then that fucking dum-dums part makes perfect sense.

• 52:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Okay. And I think even when thinking, when thinking about the dum-dum, the way he panicked when the beeping went off is he didn't even know that it was fake until the beeping went off. That's what I think.

• 52:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 52:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Because...

• 52:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You mean that it was real?

• 52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Because even him saying, I'm not lying, he's lying. He thinks it's not real. And I think they're telling him this. I don't know why she's telling him this, but I don't believe that. So why, yeah, okay.

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So, um, they strap it to his neck at gunpoint. The FBI had already concluded they had checked out the bomb and that it was rigged, so at any attempt to remove it at all, it would have set it off. So he was destined, he was going to die no matter what. Then in late 2005, a few months after Marjorie first talked to the feds, a witness comes forward and says that an ex-television repairman turned crack dealer named Kenneth Barnes was also involved. Barnes was already in jail on unrelated drug charges, so when threatened with more time behind bars, he agrees to a deal. He would give the full account, blah, blah, blah, reduce sentence. He confirms that Marjorie was... He says, which is what other people were coming forward and saying, Marjorie was

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  the mastermind behind the collar bomb plot. He claims she needed the cash so she could pay him to kill her father for inheritance money.

• 53:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 53:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. In Erie, Pennsylvania.

• 53:59Karen Kilgariff?

  She's just, she's like a black widow.

• 54:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So he sentenced, Devarn's is sentenced to 45 years behind bars, but he agrees to testify against Marjorie. He also explains Brian Wells reasoning why he even got in on the plot for money. He needed the money because he had developed a relationship with a sex worker and he had devised a scheme where he, he was like, I'm going to sell crack because I need the money to be with her. I think he was like in love with her. But he had fallen into debt with a crack dealer. It's for love, which is like so sweet. And then one of the articles, it's like, he was a drug dealer. And it's like, well, he wasn't, when you call him a drug dealer, you're not, you know, explaining the intricacies, which sounds like a fucking movie.

• 54:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, if you're selling crack to people, you're a drug dealer. It doesn't matter what your motives are.

• 54:46Georgia Hardstark?

  You're correct.

• 54:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You could be a cold-hearted snake, or you can be...

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  You are correct.

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You could be the most nicest romantic person.

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  If you're selling drugs.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Because also, it's not like, oh, he's selling pot, so he's getting 60 bucks a hit. He's like, probably making fucking bank.

• 55:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And these people who are crack addicts are ruining their lives, so he's helping them ruin their lives.

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly. Aiding and abetting, and then also on top of that, so that he can fuck a lady who probably doesn't give a shit one way or the other about him.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Otherwise, she wouldn't be charging him, probably.

• 55:18Karen Kilgariff?

  One would like to think that it would go into a Julia Roberts in that movie kind of direction.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Where she then does actually kiss him on the mouth.

• 55:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Why am I being romantic about this?

• 55:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you probably got involved in your reading. I'm just, I'm counterpointing.

• 55:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I just want to know Brian Wells more. Like, I feel, he probably wasn't the sharpest needle in the tack.

• 55:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew I wasn't gonna get that right, so I just kept going with it. You know what I mean?

• 55:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That was like a straight up Yogi Berra style quote.

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I took all of the things.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling someone else dumb, like

• 55:55Karen Kilgariff?

  mixing metaphors.

• 55:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah, I don't know. To me, he's the, he's the, he lost the most.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  He's not some mastermind. He's not like.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he got duped pretty hard for a reason that, you know, he didn't understand was, okay. Da, da, da, da, da. He also testified that Marjorie's ex, whose body was the freezer body, was also in on the crime. The reason he had been killed was because he threatened to tell the feds, not because of money.

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 56:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's why his freezer body happened.

• 56:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  When Marjorie took the stand on trial, she's fucking ranting and raving. She's like, she's bananas.

• 56:32Karen Kilgariff?

  She's butter crazy.

• 56:33Georgia Hardstark?

  She's butter crazy. She claims to have never met Brian Wells and his, Brian Wells, the victim, even though he testified that she had even measured his neck for the collar bomb.

• 56:44Georgia Hardstark?

  The jury didn't believe her. She's voted guilty of armed, voted guilty of armed robbery.

• 56:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I wrote that, I wrote it, voted guilty, and I'm like, I'll figure that out once we're there. So I just read it out the paper.

• 56:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, technically, you're right.

• 56:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They voted.

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They get voted guilty.

• 56:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Guilty of armed bank robbery conspiracy, using a destructive device and a crime of violence. She died on April of this year, actually, as 86 years old of natural causes.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Eighty-six?

• 57:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so she died in 2017 in April.

• 57:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 57:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, when we were just hanging out, thinking anything was whatever, and then she's dying. All right, last part, and this is also from Wired. Retired FBI criminal investigators, who you know are the fucking coolest people in the world. I want to have a drink with him. Jim Fisher, this guy, thinks that there's no way that Marjorie planned the collar bomb heist. He, based on the FBI suspect profile, which they had before anyone got in trouble for this, he thinks Bill Rothstein was the mastermind. He was a handyman with the skills to create a homemade bomb. He, and because he, and it wasn't about money, he thinks. He had never accomplished much in his life. He wanted to show how brilliant he was by, quote, Executing a crime that would grab headlines across the globe and baffle authorities for years.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  He recruited conspirators he knew he could control and kept crucial details of the plot from them, a tactic designed to further complicate the investigation.

• 58:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 58:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So he thinks he was just fucking with his head. Like, it kind of reminded me of the guy from S-Town that they...

• 58:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I still haven't listened to it.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, people who have listened to S-Town, the master, this guy was like this brilliant dude.

• 58:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It kind of reminds me of that. In the end, says Jim Fisher, the son of a bitch ended up winning.

• 58:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh. Well, not so much because I'd never heard of this case before.

• 58:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  But he went-

• 58:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, we are talking about it now. He won by dying a free man.

• 58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that's true.

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and baffling the shit, and they still don't really understand how and what happened.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Which isn't a victory, because that just means you went crazy, you victimized a bunch of people, and it doesn't make sense why you did it.

• 58:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not like, to your genius credit, that's just fucked up.

• 58:52Georgia Hardstark?

  What he specifically wanted, which again, is not a genius move. It's like-

• 58:58Karen Kilgariff?

  For me, like, the kitchen timer right there proves that he's not a genius.

• 59:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, get one of those LED digital readout timers, or get the fuck out of town.

• 59:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I think what he wanted to prove is he could fucking make a bomb in his whatever garage out of anything. You know, those people who like to take things apart and put them back together just to see how they work, instead of reading a fucking book and just chilling out, take a nap.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I guess that's true. Well, that was fascinating.

• 59:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I say, look at the picture of him sitting in the middle of the road.

• 59:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Go nowhere near the video of him getting blown up.

• 59:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I want you to see the picture, kind of. Stephen, can you pull that up? Just to see, it's just this, like, clear afternoon news story-

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Of him sitting there. They're not too close.

• 59:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I can totally picture it.

• 59:41Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks almost like a mannequin sitting there.

• 59:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like this still body, not dead, I'm talking about when he's-

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  He was just waiting.

• 59:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So was that the whole bomb squad thing? They were just waiting for the bomb squad to show up?

• 59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what, he was just sitting on the curb.

• 59:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And they were calling the bomb squad, but also, they weren't sure if he was even in on it, so they had their guns drawn on him. Yeah, that one. Go look up the picture. It's like, it's like a bummer, obviously. It looks like when someone gets stopped at the traffic thing and then they go to arrest him. Yeah. It looks like that. Like he's an unruly drunk driver. Yeah. Um, what's that? Do you know what his shirt says or what? Says guess. Oh, that's the guess thing. Yeah. And they think that's part of it is like Bill Rothstein put a shirt on him that says guess. That's fucked up. I know. Wow, that's a good one. Thank you. It's so weird because I saw this like, it was from 2003. I think I saw maybe a city confidential or a 2020, like pretty immediately after it happened. So like, no one still knew what was going on.

• 1:00:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And it just stuck with me and it was one of those ones where I was like, everyone knows this one. So I'm not going to do it. And then I was like, maybe they don't. So. I mean, the one I thought it was, was there's and I survived about a woman who gets home invaded. They, it's her and her daughter. Right. And they put a bomb on her and make her go rob a bank. And she, and they're like, if you say anything, it's the same exact thing, but she really was, you know, she was a victim and survived it. They get, they ended up getting off her. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. Phew. I know.

• 1:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. Are there any updates on this one? I have some updates. So in Netflix's four-part docu-series called Evil Genius, The True Story of America's Most Diabolical Bank Heist, Jessica Hoopsick, a woman who claimed to be Brian Wells's friend, confessed that she set Wells up to participate in the crime by providing his name and delivery schedule to one of the conspirators in exchange for money and drugs. So, I mean, that's just huge. Investigators say Hoopsick was uncooperative after the deadly heist in 2003. They had long suspected her involvement, but didn't have enough evidence to build a case against her. So that's pretty interesting. Yeah. And. Inside job, basically.

• 1:01:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now because the story was just so convoluted. It was crazy. It was like, it was so shocking and insane and on video. Yeah. The video of him sitting in the middle of the intersection. So bad. It's so fucking traumatizing. I mean, Jesus. It's horrible. Speaking of traumatizing. We got another one. Let's get into your story. Yeah. This one is, God, it's bad. All right, let's listen to Karen's story about the shoe fetish slayer.

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• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:04:06Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:04:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, my turn. Let's do it. I don't know what that voice was. I, this story is, I've been trying to do it for a really long time, but I, because I've been reading an Ann Rule book about this serial killer. And, but then I think Frank ate the back half of the book. It turned into a thing where then I had, I was trying to find the book again and whatever.

• 1:04:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I think we should make, for new listeners, Frank is her dog. It's not her boyfriend.

• 1:04:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:04:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I have a really nervous boyfriend named Frank.

• 1:04:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He doesn't like when I learn things.

• 1:04:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He doesn't like when I leave the house. Um, so, but, but the first chapter of this book is one of the most hook you in and you can't stop reading chapters. It's Anne Rule.

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. I've been meaning to read a new one by her.

• 1:05:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's, this is a great one. I had bought one at the airport on the last tour. That was a, it was a bunch of different stories, kind of all put together. But I, I realized that like, that's a little bit too depressing because it's just almost like the same thing over and over again.

• 1:05:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And I like her thoughts on it and stuff.

• 1:05:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You, I, I, I think I enjoy like the full thing more, but the, the cool thing about Anne Rule is that she just goes so far into the victims' lives. So you get all that information. So if anybody, if this is an interesting story to you, Anne Rule wrote a book called Lust Killer, and it's about this guy. But this is the best part. So I, uh, texted Stephen yesterday. I was like, can you please get me a chronology of this guy so that I can get ahead on this story? And so he looked up and found, um, this chronology that was put together by some people in the Department of Psychology at Bradford University in Bradford, Virginia. And those people are Mike Keefe, Audrey Mangram, I was gonna say Magnum,

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Audrey Mangram, Kimberly Mast, Heather McGinn, Ryan Miller, Kristin Pouchot, Nicole Newsom, and Vicky Tanner.

• 1:06:10Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot of ladies.

• 1:06:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So many ladies.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't say if they are like students. It doesn't say who they are in the department or whatever, but they put together, it's like an Excel spreadsheet of the, the years and then the significant like moments in this guy's life.

• 1:06:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Nice.

• 1:06:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is a lifesaver for doing a show like this.

• 1:06:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I, yeah, I need that. So many times.

• 1:06:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We need it every GD week.

• 1:06:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And then instead you have to read 1,800 articles to find that.

• 1:06:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is fine and fun.

• 1:06:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's good, but then when you have a spine like this, these guys did amazing work, really good. It's just very great detail work where sometimes when you're reading a story, if you read two articles, the second one contradicts the first one.

• 1:06:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you're like, well, did he join the army or not? Like, it's that thing.

• 1:06:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I always am like, well, the first one said this, so I believe it. It was just the first one I picked to read. It's not like, I'm lying about this guy.

• 1:07:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Wikipedia overall.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 1:07:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So it's Jerry Brudos, the Shoe Fetish Slayer. You've seen, there's 1 million all true crime shows about him and there's a Law and Order that's basically his story. So. Jerry Brutus is born January 31st, 1939.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  What's his name? I didn't hear that.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Jerry Brutus is born on January 31st, 1939 in Webster, South Dakota. And it turns out, um, he was an accident and his mother wanted a girl.

• 1:07:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:32Karen Kilgariff?

  They lived on a farm. When he was five, they moved to Portland, Oregon. And they basically move, uh, it looks like every two to five years, his whole childhood and into his adult life, which sucks. And also it doesn't say this anywhere at all. That my theory is that his dad was an alcoholic or somebody in the family was an alcoholic, where they had to just keep leaving town and starting over.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  But also they, I think he starts, his dad starts out as a farmer and it might just be that they're trying to, he's trying to basically be a migrant farmer and like go to the new place where he can make money.

• 1:08:05Georgia Hardstark?

  All of the money.

• 1:08:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But every two years, it's just so disruptive and fucked up.

• 1:08:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So sad.

• 1:08:13Karen Kilgariff?

  But anyway, so one day he's wandering around alone at the junkyard when he's five years old.

• 1:08:18Georgia Hardstark?

  As you do.

• 1:08:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And, uh, he finds a pair of open-toed spike heeled shoes. And he is obsessed immediately. Yes, this is his jam. He puts them on.

• 1:08:30Georgia Hardstark?

  He probably never sees women wearing that kind of thing where he's from, maybe? Like his mom probably doesn't wear shit like that.

• 1:08:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 1:08:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:37Karen Kilgariff?

  But he goes crazy. He plays with them. He takes them home. His mom finds them and goes berserk on him and is like screaming, whatever. And like, never touch these again. You're not supposed to touch, you're not supposed to like this, whatever.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is a great way to get your kid to be really into something.

• 1:08:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Hi.

• 1:08:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, we know that.

• 1:08:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So let's take a five-year-old and be like, this is forbidden. And then see what happens.

• 1:08:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't understand why it's forbidden?

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Eventually he, he kept finding them and like she would take them away from him. Finally she burns them. Symbolically for him. Perfect. When he's six, they moved to Riverton, California, and he's in the first grade. His teacher wore high heel shoes and kept another pair in the classroom. So he tried to steal them one day so he could take them home. But another kid in the class saw him and told on him. So from first grade, this is like a very, very early age. He fails second grade. He is diagnosed with measles, sore throat, swollen glands, laryngitis.

• 1:09:43Karen Kilgariff?

  He has frequent headaches that actually leave him unable to see clearly. Oh, my God. So he's got some stuff going on, but also all of those illnesses that he has, it makes me go like, were you not taken care of very well? Definitely. You're not fed well? Yeah. Did you not sleep correct? You know, like, why would you just be constantly sick? Yeah.

• 1:10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So in 1947, when he's eight years old, the family moves to Grants Pass, Oregon. And next door, there's a house that has, I think it's three teenage girls. Aye. Right. So they have a little brother and Jerry starts sneaking into that house with the brother to steal these girls underwear.

• 1:10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  They, first they play in the clothes, then he like discovers the underwear and then he, so it goes from shoes to undergarments.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  A couple of years later, the family moves again to Wallace Pond. Because Jerry's father is getting back into farming. And his, when he's going through puberty, his mother is disgusted by anything sexual that Jerry does, you know, if he has a wet dream, she makes him wash his sheets by hand. There's a lot of shaming, a lot of like, sounds like verbal abuse. How to create a serial killer. Yeah, I mean.

• 1:11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So he starts to fantasize that he wants to capture a girl and make her obey his commands and beg for mercy. So when he's around 16, he steals an 18-year-old girl's underwear. Then he decides that he wants nude pictures of her. So he tells her that he has found out who stole her underwear and to meet her, to meet him at her, at his house. So the girl goes over to his house and she is, there she's attacked by a masked man who forces her to take off her clothes and takes pictures of her. And then the man runs away. And then

• 1:11:50Karen Kilgariff?

  the girl gets dressed and she goes to leave and she runs into Jerry. And Jerry says, "I was locked in the barn this whole time. What happened? I just saw a guy running out of here in a mask." The girl runs away, reports the whole thing to police. So essentially, he's trying to, and there was another story, but I could not find it anywhere, of him doing that and coming back in and saying that he was his own twin brother. Oh my god. And that really sorry, it was like one of the first times he did this. He's really sorry. He, he basically makes a girl, a young girl his age, take off her clothes, takes pictures of her, leaves, changes his clothes, combs his hair differently, comes in and goes, "I'm sorry about my brother Jerry. I'm his brother."

• 1:12:33Karen Kilgariff?

  What a crazy creepy. That like creeps me out. It's so creepy. And of course, and I think that little girl from the story that I remember, didn't report it to the police. It was just like this weird fucked up thing. Yeah. So anyway, I know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's also that kind of indicative of that, this sociopathic thing of I'm smarter than everybody. Like, there's no way anyone's gonna find out. My, here's my great plan. I'm gonna play my own identical twin. Yeah. Insane. Yeah, this is not Full House. Yeah, exactly. So, okay, so.

• 1:13:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, when he's 17, he lures a girl into his car. He drives her to a deserted farmhouse, beats her up. And by some miracle, there's a couple that's like sightseeing out in the country. And they stop at the same abandoned farmhouse and they find, they like walk in on what's happening and call the cops. So Jerry claims that he'd also stopped to help the girl because they find him and her and she's tied up. He says, no, I found her that way. I was here to help her. Police don't believe it. And they finally, they talked to him long enough and he confesses. So he's arrested for assault and battery. And in, they find in his house and in his car, women's underwear, pictures and photo

• 1:13:51Karen Kilgariff?

  equipment. So soon after his arrest, they send him to Oregon State Hospital, the psychiatric ward for nine months.

• 1:13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you think that, that wasn't a fucking vacay probably?

• 1:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  A psychiatric hospital back then? What year is it?

• 1:14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's 1969, I believe. No, no, it's

• 1:14:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Fire hose.

• 1:14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Bad news.

• 1:14:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Time.

• 1:14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He starts talking to the doctors there about his sexual fantasies, his hatred and revenge, uh, they've revenge he wants to take against his mother and women in general. And he's diagnosed with schizophrenia, which was actually a common thing that would happen back then, that, that wasn't actually an accurate diagnosis.

• 1:14:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Blanket diagnosis.

• 1:14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. It was just kind of like, you are, you're, um, what is that called? I was, I want to say devious, but it's a nothing.

• 1:14:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I was going to say deviant, devious.

• 1:14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, deviant, that's it.

• 1:14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Deviant, okay. I was going to say that, but then you said devious. He's a deviant.

• 1:14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a deviant. That's what I was trying to say.

• 1:14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven?

• 1:14:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that you looked at me like, can we fucking?

• 1:14:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you help? Will you try?

• 1:15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You said the only word I was thinking.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, um,

• 1:15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So, and they also, they, the things that he's telling them that he likes, they don't, they don't know how to classify that.

• 1:15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  There's not a thing yet.

• 1:15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. Um, I mean, whatever, they, there might have been, they're basically like slap schizophrenia on him and like.

• 1:15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Treat him for that, which is probably electric shock therapy.

• 1:15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He still graduates with this high school class in 1957.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so this is the late 50s. It's not even the 60s.

• 1:15:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So then he joins the army in 1959. He tells the army psychiatrist about these same obsessions and the, and the psychiatrist has him discharged from the army. Um, so he moves back in with his parents. Now they live in Corvallis, Oregon, and, um, he has to live in their shed.

• 1:15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They make him live out back in the shed.

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, he's an adult now. Can we please fucking treat him like a human?

• 1:15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Or get an apartment.

• 1:15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah. So, uh, one night he's running an errand and, um, there's, he sees a young girl walking by herself and he decides he's gonna follow her. And he, so he basically stalks her, follows her home, um, attacks her, strangles her until she's unconscious and then steals her shoes. And that night he slept with the shoes.

• 1:16:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, this is so creepy.

• 1:16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  This is nothing.

• 1:16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 1:16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Um, so he becomes an electronics technician, uh, in 1961. When he's 21, he gets a job at a radio sta- station. And that's when he meets his future wife, 17 year old Darcy Metzler. Yeah.

• 1:16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Darcy, run.

• 1:16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Darcy. Um, of course, Darcy's parents don't approve of the, the relationship because she's so young. And because of that, they're married within a few months of meeting.

• 1:16:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how it's, like, let's solve this by marrying them.

• 1:16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yes, exactly. Well, it's like, you want to get out of your parents' house anyway. This guy comes along.

• 1:16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He loves underwear. You gotta get him. So.

• 1:17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Tie that guy down.

• 1:17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:17:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Literally.

• 1:17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So they settle in Salem, Oregon.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And Jerry's thing is he wants her to do all of her housework in the nude so he can take pictures of her while she's doing it.

• 1:17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, she's like, I'm sweating.

• 1:17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, I'm swiffering.

• 1:17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and she's so young that she's completely kind of under his control.

• 1:17:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, she probably doesn't know what if this is normal or not.

• 1:17:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 1:17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Karen Kilgariff?

  This is now married life.

• 1:17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, like, I guess this is what you do.

• 1:17:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  As a wife.

• 1:17:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And around the same time, he starts complaining that he's getting migraines so bad that he's blacking out. And that the only thing that helps alleviate those symptoms is going on night prowling raids to steal shoes and underwear from local women.

• 1:17:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone who's been taking Advil for your fucking migraines.

• 1:17:55Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got a new solution.

• 1:17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a way creepier solution. So he would keep all of those trophies.

• 1:18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 1:18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Trophies. Shoes and underwear in a garage that he had built, it was like a sub-basement that his wife couldn't enter into until she announced her arrival on an intercom. It was, he was locked down in this basement and she'd have to be like, honey, can I, can I bring you some Ritz?

• 1:18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so.

• 1:18:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Let me put this away real quick.

• 1:18:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he said, he has it set up where it's like, this is my man cave, you're not allowed down here. So in 1962, they have a daughter, but Jerry can't hold a steady job. They move all the time. They finally settle back in Portland. Jerry becomes an electrician. In 1967, they have a son, so have two kids. But his wife won't let him in the delivery room when she's having the ba, her second baby.

• 1:18:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And he, he's so hurt by this, is what this article was saying, or like, it affected him so much, that's when the raping and the killing starts.

• 1:19:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait, isn't that normal for back then?

• 1:19:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably, I'm assuming this is his story of him being like, it pissed me off so much, you know, like, that's the wife's fault.

• 1:19:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that's so normal, I think even when my, in the seventies when my brother was born, my dad wasn't allowed in there.

• 1:19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, but, but this was the wife's decision. This is what they're saying.

• 1:19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:19:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So it makes it sound like he was allowed in for their first child.

• 1:19:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And not this, some weird thing had happened.

• 1:19:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So that's why he.

• 1:19:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what he says.

• 1:19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, it's someone else's fault.

• 1:19:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:19:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, I imagine they'd now been married for six years or so. She's probably seen some weird shit and she's heard some weird shit. And there's a whole room she's locked out of all the time. So she's prob- there's, you know, like, who knows what her state is?

• 1:19:56Georgia Hardstark?

  She knows him well enough that he doesn't want to go in there for the miracle of his child being born. He wants to go in there for something fucking creepy.

• 1:20:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she doesn't trust it.

• 1:20:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:20:05Karen Kilgariff?

  How unnerving.

• 1:20:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Like, if I see my husband's face when I'm giving birth, I'm gonna cry.

• 1:20:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I will barf.

• 1:20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Barf and cry.

• 1:20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll barf, cry, and then shit on the table, which is what everyone does, apparently. My friend Michelle Bloom does that.

• 1:20:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I've heard that. It's terrifying. That's the most terrifying part.

• 1:20:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so shortly after that, the childbirth, he claims that he stalked a woman in Portland, Oregon, followed her home, waited for her to fall asleep, broke into her house to steal her shoes. But then, when she woke up mid robbery and catches him, he chokes her until she passes out, rapes her, steals her shoes, and then leaves.

• 1:20:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So then, in January of 1968, and this is the, this is the woman who Anne Rule's book starts with.

• 1:20:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay. I forgot about that part.

• 1:20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so she starts with this, the first murder victim.

• 1:21:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And her name was, her name was Linda Lawson. She was selling encyclopedias door to door in the rain in Portland.

• 1:21:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:21:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And at night.

• 1:21:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This sounds like a horror movie.

• 1:21:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I, well, completely. The way this is written, it's like she's trying to decide. She hasn't had any sales. She's just moved out on her own.

• 1:21:22Georgia Hardstark?

  She's gonna keep trying, maybe the next one.

• 1:21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she, like, needs the money. She has to eat. Like, things are getting bad. And then there's, like, one last house that has a light on. And she's like, I just want to go home. I'll just try this one last house.

• 1:21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And back then, they aren't as scared as we are today and weary.

• 1:21:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wary of...

• 1:21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  There were so many door-to-door salesmen and women back then.

• 1:21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and you'd let them in your house and it was...

• 1:21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And 90% of the time, nothing happened.

• 1:21:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Just a lot of vacuum sales.

• 1:21:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:21:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, so she goes up and she rings Jerry Brutus's doorbell. He is, you see a picture of him. He looks like a cartoon. He looks like the missing friend on King of the Hill. Like, he's just, he looks like grown up Charlie Brown with army-issue black glasses on.

• 1:22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, grown up Charlie Brown.

• 1:22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a big, round head.

• 1:22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Like pasty.

• 1:22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  No distinguishing features.

• 1:22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  A little lumpy.

• 1:22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yeah, kinda like, almost like a bit of a snowman. Um, just round, round, round.

• 1:22:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I love, the picture in my head, I never wanna see what he actually looks like.

• 1:22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a vicious snowman.

• 1:22:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:22:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, okay, but he, when he answers the door, friendly, nice, low-key, um, and he brings, he's, "Oh, come in, I actually just was, I really wanted to get a set of those," acts super interested, then explains that his, I think he said his children were sleeping. I think that's what his excuse was. "Can you come down into the basement?"

• 1:22:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:22:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so they could talk business down there. Well, she goes down, uh, um, and he almost immediately hits her with, in the head with a two-by-four, um, beats her and then strangles her to death.

• 1:22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my.

• 1:22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And then...

• 1:22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Did he mean to that time, do you think?

• 1:22:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the whole idea.

• 1:23:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause he was strangling till they passed out before that?

• 1:23:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But this girl comes to his door, and then he's like, "The wife was out, and he knew he had time to do whatever he wanted." Um, so once, before she, uh, after she's dead and before he gets rid of the body, he takes off her clothes and dresses her up in the stolen underwear that he has in his collection.

• 1:23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:23:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, then, this is bad, he cuts off her left foot and keeps it in the freezer in a high-heeled shoe. So it's like he has...

• 1:23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm just processing that. Holy shit. This is crazy.

• 1:23:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So then, when he, and at some point there, his wife came home, and he went back upstairs and like ate dinner with the family. I believe I read that in the Anne Rule book, but I, um, I'm almost positive that that's happening. He, he basically had family interactions, like, right after doing this.

• 1:23:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Supernormal, well, probably as normal as he is.

• 1:24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah. He's probably always coming up from that sub-basement a little bit sweaty.

• 1:24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:24:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So later in that night, he rolls her in a rug, drives to a bridge, uh, pulls out all this stuff to make it look like he got a flat tire, as, almost like, safety.

• 1:24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:24:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And then dumps her body in, in the river. So then in July of 1968, so that was January. So six months later, Stephanie Vico is reported missing from Portland. And then in November, the same year, Jan Susan Whitney is reported missing from Portland. Jan's 23 year old college student at the University of Oregon. Then in March of 1969, so about six months later, a woman named Karen Sprinkler, who was a 19 year old college student, goes missing. And when the police take the eyewitness accounts of Karen going missing,

• 1:24:57Karen Kilgariff?

  two young girls tell the police they saw a large man dressed as a woman on the parking lot garage roof where Karen's abandoned car was found on that day. Wow. If you see a picture of this guy and then you picture him lurking around like a parking structure dressed as a woman, it's very scary. It's scary. Anyway. It sounds like Norman. Norman Bates? Yeah. Just like his mom, kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Creepy. Because probably from a distance, you're like, oh, yeah, there's a woman up here on the same parking. You'd be, you'd feel, I think that's part of what's so sinister to me. You're lured into safety of like, oh, that's the woman just like me. I'm fine.

• 1:25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I could see myself doing that. Completely. For sure. Yeah. So a month later, a woman named Sharon Wood is attacked in a parking garage at Portland State University. She fends off her attacker by biting his thumb until it bled. And it of course turns out to be Jerry. Once she does this, he beats her unconscious, but then a car comes, so he has to run. So the police get the report of this, make no connection to the other parking garage attack.

• 1:26:22Karen Kilgariff?

  The next day after that attack, Jerry sees 14-year-old LeAnn Brumley. He tries to abduct her. She fights him off and escapes. Good for you. Day after that, a woman named Linda Dawn Saley is reported missing. Her car is found abandoned in a parking garage.

• 1:26:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The police realize now that they're dealing with a serial killer. So the next month, which is May of 1969, a local fisherman discovers Linda Saley's body in the Long Tom River. It was weighed down by a car transmission. And then two days after that, Karen Sprinkler's body is found 50 feet away. Oh, my God. So that's obviously his dumping ground.

• 1:27:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen was also tied to an old engine, which is the reason it kept her submerged for a long time. And he, this is bad. Okay. He cut off her breasts to keep as souvenirs. He also placed a bra from his collection of undergarments over her mangled chest. Oh, my God. Is the way they worded it. Yeah.

• 1:27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So this guy is basically berserking. He's like, he's killing, he's trying to attack women almost daily. Killing people. And then these bodies are coming up of when he, like, it's, it's just all going faster and faster. Yeah, like, he started and then was fucking on. Yes. And then anytime he can't, he can't, you know, someone gets away, then he has to do, try it again the very next day. Right. So it's like. Wow. So the same month, he starts calling dorm rooms at Oregon State University to try to arrange blind dates with the coeds. What the fuck? And it works. No. Uh huh. What did he say?

• 1:28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. I want to know how he. I mean, I would love, I would love to know, and I bet you it's in that book. I promise I'm going to finish reading this book. I'm just wondering. Everyone else should read it with me, but, um, yeah, insane.

• 1:28:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So. They're now, the police now are onto the pattern. They're staking out places where young coeds hang out, where they end up, like parking structure, stuff like that. A female student who claims to have gone on a blind date with this guy goes to police and gives his description. So now the police know what he looks like. Wow. And when he contacts her a second time for a follow-up date, she calls the police and tells them. So they, the police show up at the meeting spot. Fuck, yeah. They questioned Jerry at the girls' residence hall. Oh, no. So fucking intense at Oregon State. But he's so cooperative and he gave his ID.

• 1:29:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing came back. It all seemed legit. So he was not arrested. Because all they had on him was you're just trying to make blind dates with people, which is not illegal. Yeah. But a bummer. Yeah.

• 1:29:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But then, thank God, the police, after that interaction with him, go back and they look up his record. They look into him further and- Didn't the blind date went forward after that? Yeah, yeah. She's like, once he got cleared by the cops, she's like, so do you like roller skating?

• 1:29:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So they look into his record. They decide to go to his house for some follow-up questions. And there, they see several suspicious items in his garage, in his sub-basement. And they start building a case against him. Cause they're like, they're the old classic line of cops. We like this guy. Yeah. So eventually they have enough evidence to arrest, to get an arrest warrant. He tries to run while the police are serving him with the arrest warrant.

• 1:30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Never do that. It's never gonna work. No. If the cops are there. Yeah. You're done. Yeah.

• 1:30:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But the warrant was for the attempted deduction of LeAnn Brumley from the month before. Yeah. And so then they starting, they get him in, take him downtown, whatever, and they started interrogating him. And he tries to call, he, he tries to call his wife and get her to burn stuff, clothing, and like his, his underwear collection and all that other evidence. He's like, now you can go into the sub-basement. Yeah, exactly right. Here's, here's the pass. Oh, my God. Like Darcy's like, give fuck yourself, for real. Darcy. Darcy's over it. She's, she's had it.

• 1:30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So the investigator's name was Jim Stovall and he basically gets Jerry Brudos to confess to the murders of the two recently discovered bodies, as well as the murder of Linda Slosson and Jan Whitney.

• 1:31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's tested, Jerry Brudos is tested by several psychologists, psychiatrists, sorry. And he shows average IQ and cognition deemed not criminally insane, which I'm not, I don't understand.

• 1:31:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, how can you be, because how can you be a serial, like murder people and not be a little insane?

• 1:31:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but I'm not sure what criminally insane must have a very specific thing.

• 1:31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Hardcore, yeah.

• 1:31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But he is diagnosed as an antisocial personality manifested by fetishism, transvest- transvesticism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and sadism.

• 1:31:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't trans, isn't it funny that back then, transvesticism is a crime?

• 1:31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It's insane.

• 1:31:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and it wasn't that long ago. And I'm like, what is it? It's 1960 something. I lost, I lost my paper. We're in like, we're in the late 60s, 1969.

• 1:31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure someone's gonna tell us when it went, tell, and it's gonna be recent.

• 1:32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, they just fucking passed a thing and it's, uh, yeah.

• 1:32:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:32:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So they, they collect all the evidence. He's eventually charged with three counts of first degree murder. Jan, Jan Whitney, Linda Saly, Karen Sprinkler. He tries to plead not guilty, not guilty by reason of insanity, but eventually they just get him to plead guilty. And so on the same day that he pleads guilty, he's sentenced to three consecutive life sentences.

• 1:32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:32:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause he confessed.

• 1:32:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 1:32:37Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no death penalty in Oregon, so they just give him three consecutive life sentences. He's never charged with the murder of Linda Slosson because her body was never found.

• 1:32:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:32:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so sad.

• 1:32:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, around the time of all these murders, 12 women went missing in that area while he was free.

• 1:32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So, an investigation was ongoing to attempt to uncover the whereabouts of those other missing women. And at one point, a neighbor of Brutus' implicated Darcy in the murders, claiming that she had helped Jerry carry a body from the garage. And she actually ended up going to trial for it and being acquitted.

• 1:33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Holy shit.

• 1:33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:33:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think she did? Because what a bummer to like, A, have your husband turn out to be a serial killer, and B, you're implicated in it and have nothing to do with it.

• 1:33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's what I would think. I don't think some, I don't know. Who knows?

• 1:33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And based on what she's already done, you would think that she would testify against him for immunity if she actually knew something.

• 1:33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And if she didn't burn, when he called and was like, get rid of the evidence, she's like, no way.

• 1:33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That doesn't seem like a person who's like in it for the long haul, or like his accomplice.

• 1:33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. And, yeah. Anyhow, he goes to jail. But he also had piles of women's shoe catalogs in his cell. He would write to the companies and ask for their catalogs. So, they were, he claimed that substituted for pornography for him.

• 1:34:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:34:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And he actually, it says, "He lodged countless appeals, including one in which the, he allegedly," oh, sorry. "He lodged countless appeals, including one in which he alleged that a photograph taken of him with one of the corpses could not prove his guilt because it was not the body of the person he was convicted of killing." So, he, they found a picture of him posing with a dead body.

• 1:34:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Who took it?

• 1:34:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, probably him, I would imagine.

• 1:34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  On a timer, maybe.

• 1:34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, kitchen timer.

• 1:34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's like that kind of thing where he's arguing like, look, that's not the dead body then. Hey, you can't like.

• 1:34:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone else?

• 1:34:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so insane. It's a picture of you posing with a dead body. Anyway, he died in prison on March 28, 2006, from liver cancer.

• 1:35:05Georgia Hardstark?

  He lived for a long fucking time.

• 1:35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  In fact, at the time of his death, he was the longest incarcerated inmate in the Oregon Department of Corrections, a total of 37 years.

• 1:35:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:35:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  My age is how my entire life is how long he was in prison.

• 1:35:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:35:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So if you want to read Lust Killer, I'm going to finish it and then we'll know all those details because I really do want to know like all that stuff at the end. And I bet you it'll, it'll talk more about Darcy too, because I, I'm sure she talked to Anne Roll. I bet you she talked to Anne Roll.

• 1:35:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You think so?

• 1:35:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet she did.

• 1:35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd love to hear more from Darcy.

• 1:35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Try to finish that up pretty soon. But also thanks to those people from Radford University. Your research helped me do my thing.

• 1:35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, guys. Shout outs to fucking helpers this episode. Wired Magazine, all this. Wow. What a creep. I had never heard that one.

• 1:36:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's bad.

• 1:36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of those ones I've been working on, but every time I go to do it, I'm like, it's just about, I mean, it's just, there's no, but the only thing was the two points, I always look for those cinematic moments. One cinematic moment is a person dressed up like a woman hiding in a parking garage.

• 1:36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is the scariest, like beyond.

• 1:36:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the other one is that as a child attacking that little girl and then being like, I'm my twin brother, where it's like, how fucking crazy are you?

• 1:36:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like psycho level.

• 1:36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back, Karen. Do you have any updates?

• 1:36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  No case updates, although Jerry Brudos was featured in Mindhunter, which I always thought was interesting because, you know, we make jokes about it being so textbook. Like, he had such a serial killer's childhood and all those things. It's like, he's so textbook. And then the idea that, like, in Mindhunter, they're like, yep, here's one of those people. That's exactly the kind of serial killer that's like, here's their fetish, here's their, you know, history.

• 1:37:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And he's not as much of a well-known serial killer as the others they showcased on that show.

• 1:37:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:16Georgia Hardstark?

  That was interesting.

• 1:37:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It is interesting. It makes me think that, you know, we think a lot like John Douglas, the FBI agent and author of Mindhunter.

• 1:37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's 10 years. We're basically FBI agents.

• 1:37:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We have earned it, clearly. We know exactly.

• 1:37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  We've earned it. We've put in our hours. What is it called when you put your hours in for something?

• 1:37:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Clock in, clock out?

• 1:37:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, like...

• 1:37:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You pay your dues?

• 1:37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, something like that. We've paid our dues.

• 1:37:41Karen Kilgariff?

  We've paid our dues and then some.

• 1:37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Surely have. All right, well, should we wrap this guy up with our, our happy things? Or that Elvis and Mimi are healthier?

• 1:37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 1:37:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 1:37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, let's wrap it up.

• 1:38:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have a good thing for this week?

• 1:38:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a good thing this week. Obviously, it's Elvis getting better and Mimi getting better. But now that they are better, I can, I can say what it was gonna be last week before this happened, which is a kitten, man, a new kitten. Like, nothing will make it more exciting in your house. Like, just watching her playing with a little toy by herself is, like, joyous.

• 1:38:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:38:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And then at night, oh my god, at night, she nurses, tries to nurse Vince's head. And it drives him crazy. But it's like, I like pull her away, but not before I look at it for a minute. It's just so cute. And she, like, nuzzles. And she's a real character. And I like having her around.

• 1:38:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She's super cute.

• 1:38:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's funny because she matches Mimi. It's like they have the same jacket on. But Mimi's like, I fucking hate you.

• 1:38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Mimi's jacket's, like, obviously a little more worn in. It's because it's a little lighter in color. She's washed it more. And she fucking hates the kitten.

• 1:38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  The kitten's name is Dottie. She's a real doll. So what's yours?

• 1:39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Mine is, I did a show last night at Largo. It was a comedy show for Brian Posehn, who had, who's been doing comedy for 30 years. So it was his 30 year anniversary.

• 1:39:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:39:12Karen Kilgariff?

  In comedy. So he asked a bunch of us to do the show with him, who he's been doing it with that long. And so it was me, Blanket Patch, Derek Sheen, Dana Gold, Greg Proops, and Guy Obelum. And it was such a good show.

• 1:39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  What a great idea for a show.

• 1:39:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so fun. And then, so everyone was like, obviously doing their act, but then also telling these stories and doing jokes from their act from back then.

• 1:39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was so fun. And everyone was so insanely solid. But then it also was like, I had a couple of moments, I was, it was very touching. Cause I was like, I said something about how lucky I felt to have kind of happened into this tribe that I found where it's like, you know, when the, those people in San Francisco, those comics that, that I met and got to be friends with that all ended, we all just moved en masse to LA together. And it was just such an amazing group of talented people who are geniuses and so fun. And like telling stories where we're like, I had a recovered memory on stage where I was like, Brian, remember when OJ ran and we were in Golden Apple Comics? And like, it was just like a whole thing like that where it was really, really fun.

• 1:40:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's such a nice thing to like, you know, you're going through this and you're, or like, you've been in comedy this long and you're keeping, you're doing it and you're doing it. But then to like, stop and take, take stock of it.

• 1:40:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such a cool thing. And I really, I like that you guys did that.

• 1:40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I did too. And it takes stock in this kind of like, I don't, it was almost like a high school. It had a high school feeling in, in the like, meaning and the like.

• 1:40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You're part of, you're part of this big force and you, you're part of it.

• 1:40:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You belong in it.

• 1:40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and I think like, when you're in that, you of course don't appreciate it because you're young and an asshole.

• 1:40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:40:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Drunk all the time and kind of on pills. But, um, yeah, when you, later on, when you get older, you know, just, just know that like, when you have your like posse of friends, it doesn't last because everyone gets married or, you know, maybe moves away or whatever.

• 1:41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  quits comedy for whatever reason.

• 1:41:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. It's just kind of, people move away from each other and in ways that you kind of don't expect. And then, so I think there, there was a nice kind of like.

• 1:41:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Reunion feel to it that I really liked.

• 1:41:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So awesome.

• 1:41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's those good feelings.

• 1:41:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 1:41:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And I, because I really always, I hate doing standup comedy so much and I very often cancel my sets because I'm like, there's no point. And I knew I couldn't do it because I wouldn't do that to Brian.

• 1:41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a special one.

• 1:41:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So then when I was actually doing it, I was like, oh, I do like it. That's right. I do like comedy.

• 1:41:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you gotta pick the ones that mean something to you, I guess.

• 1:41:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and just like acknowledge when I'm busy.

• 1:41:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:41:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And tie tie.

• 1:41:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Tired and busy.

• 1:41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I get so tie tie.

• 1:41:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So tired.

• 1:42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so we're back from our wrap up.

• 1:42:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So this episode was originally titled, "The Sharpest Needle in the Tac." One of the great Georgia quotes.

• 1:42:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. But if we were changing it today, which I don't think we would, some options would be, and whenever we record an episode, Molly or producer comes in and gives us options as titles, just so you guys know of like the stupid funny things we said in the episode. So that's kind of what we're doing. So we wouldn't change it, but here are some options. It could be stardust equals anxiety, which is on my list, and I still don't know what the fuck that means. Maybe it's that like, the universe is so vast and stardust is so

• 1:42:43Georgia Hardstark?

  that it's overwhelming. That could be it.

• 1:42:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe you read that quote that we're all made of stardust.

• 1:42:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:42:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And so that means that you don't want that in there.

• 1:42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That sounds like me.

• 1:42:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't want space rocks inside you?

• 1:42:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want that.

• 1:42:56Karen Kilgariff?

  There's also twists and turns all over the place, which is when Georgia teased her story is unexpected and, and then keeps on talking about the twists and turns.

• 1:43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I do a lot of twists and turns. And then, please, doctors, that Karen went on, that we went on a tangent about what it means to have a cerebral, cerebral hemorrhage. God, that's a hard one to say.

• 1:43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:43:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And Karen pleads with doctors to weigh in. Please, doctors, tell us how to do this podcast.

• 1:43:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's how we've always been about this podcast. We want doctors. We want the input. It's the, the guidance is appreciated. We don't always take it and often you're wrong. But when you're right, you're right. We won't deny when you're right.

• 1:43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You're probably way more professional than we are, so.

• 1:43:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, get in here.

• 1:43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell us. All right. So thanks, you guys, for listening. We're gonna say goodbye in the original episode from 2017. Thanks for coming in and listening to Rewind.

• 1:43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, should I see if anyone is gonna talk?

• 1:43:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis isn't. Mimi? Well, thanks for listening, everybody.

• 1:44:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you, guys, for listening. Yeah. Yeah, go on to the website if you want to get those pre-sale tickets for the upcoming tour. Australia heads up. Australia, get ready. Get in there. Australia, be our friend. Yeah. And that's it. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. Mimi, wanna cookie? Mimi? Not this week. Mimi's just leaning away from the microphone.

• 1:44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest. If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:44:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:44:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:45:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:45:03Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:45:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:45:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:45:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:45:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

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