Liv Reads Homer: The Odyssey (A Modern Translation!) Books 18

Liv reads Book 18 of Homer's Odyssey, translated by Ian Johnston. Odysseus returns to the palace in the disguised, things aren't looking good in Ithaca! This modern translation is used with immense gratitude to translator Ian Johnston and Vancouver Island University https://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/homer/odysseytofc.html. Submit questions and prompts for future Odyssey readings at mythsbaby.com/questions http://mythsbaby.com/questions and get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. This is not a standard narrative story episode, it's a reading of an ancient source, audiobook style. For regular episodes look for any that don't have "Liv Reads..." in the title! Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:43Liv Albert?

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• 1:15Speaker 01

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• 2:14Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with another reading of The Odyssey. And I will say, you know, I am recording this after, I mean, I guess a week after the last episode where I talked about the movie. And I will say, I am, I just, I'm like slightly embarrassed by how mad I am, but I also think it's just important and I don't really care. And I don't know, it's just been an incredibly bizarre situation because this is just a piece of art and ancient culture that I love more than

• 2:59Liv Albert?

  like anything in the world. And, and I obviously feel strongly about it, but what I don't love are just the shitty men who have like discovered my show for the first time and are mad that a woman is mad. Or, in any case, the, the world of social media is just getting less and less appealing with every passing day. And movies like this, which get horrific, right-wing abuse, and then allow that to turn into, if you're on the other side criticizing it for really valid stuff that has absolutely no racist connotations, you know, you're just one of

• 3:42Liv Albert?

  them. And that has just been, that's been hard. And anyway, I just kind of am opening this to say that I am trying to disengage from that, particularly on the podcast. I recorded an episode last week, which I hope to release soon, which, saying that doesn't disengage from it, but I recorded a conversation with returning guest, Charlotte Gregory. And if you'll recall, Charlotte is the, the one who, she was on a past episode about very specifically reception of Homer, but even more specifically, reception of Achilles and masculinity within Homer. And so that's what's her, that's what her PhD is in, which is so fascinating to me. So

• 4:24Liv Albert?

  specifically representations of masculinity in reception of Homer, right? And so this movie was literally like, perfect for her. And it was great because Charlotte came at it from a less personally offended place. Um, you know, I, not everyone lives in the world of like, being oversaturated by the news of the decline of what little equality we had achieved up to this point. Um, and so it was great. It was kind of a way, a counter. Um, you know, I would bring up something depressing and then she would have like something interesting and insightful

• 5:08Liv Albert?

  and positive to say about the movie. And we, we made a really good pair. And so I hope, I hope to have that come out really soon. Um, but it is coming and it's happening. And I just want to say, you know, I'm, I'm working on that. That said, I will still probably record one more episode where I talk about, um, certain things in more specific, things that I had kind of wanted to talk about in that last ramble, um, but, uh, which got overshadowed by Emily Wilson's really delightful review. Um, I need you all to know that I sent her an email, the first email I've ever sent her, because it was Michaela who, who coordinated with her for our, our episode, but I, I sent Emily Wilson an email just saying like, thank you. Thank you. I felt

• 5:50Liv Albert?

  so seen. I needed this. Thank you. And she and I had a really nice, um, exchange about that, which honestly, like, it really was the relief I needed to just know, like, I'm not the only one, um, feeling this. And I just, I don't know, I know these, these men who are either not paying attention or simply don't care about, um, you know, the way the women around them are being, having their rights stripped away. Um, these men are just so deluded and so absurd. And I just, I don't want to deal with them anymore. I don't want to deal with them in my comments or in my emails. Like, I just, I get it. I'm not, I'm not here to change your mind. I'm here

• 6:31Liv Albert?

  to share information. And if your misogynist ass can't see through it, that is not my problem. So for the rest of you, I love you. And I hear from you. I actually got a really nice message from a listener who was, um, based on their name, I would presume, a man, um, and who was really thankful for my take on it. And specifically for being someone who's like openly feeling this way when most others are, are so happy with the movie. And it was really nice to hear that from somebody. So thank you all for, if you send me those messages, I want you to know it makes a really big difference. Like, yesterday I was having like a near anxiety attack over just how, how am I going to pay the bills in this current situation? And let alone like,

• 7:17Liv Albert?

  how am I going to create content for you guys that isn't just me like heartbroken about the state of the world all of the time? And it, you know, it was sucking me in a little bit. And then I opened my email, which I shouldn't have, but in this case, it helped. Um, and I had that message from a listener who was just so grateful for, for how I've handled it. And so thank you all. If you feel that way, feel free to send me a message because, you know, honestly, it's just, it's getting wild. But I, I'm sorry, that's, that's another five minutes of rambling. I am here to just jump right into this reading, but since it's about The Odyssey, I wanted to address that. But here we are, there it's gone. Thank you all so much for listening. We are back

• 7:55Liv Albert?

  in this reading of the wonderful translation by Ian Johnston. Um, speaking of, I have to check this again, but last time I went to, uh, the website where all of these are, are held, um, the, we got a 404 error. And I'm a little bit afraid that I won't be able to find Ian Johnston's translation of the Iliad, which I would imagine you all would like me to read next. And I would like to read next. If anyone has a copy of that, um, I know it is like copyright fine. It's just that now their website is down a little bit. Uh, but if anyone has a copy of that, you feel free to email it to me. I'm going to still be on the look, but putting that call

• 8:32Liv Albert?

  out now. And with that out of the way, let's return to the real Odysseus, the messy, lying, cunning piece of shit who we all know and love. Remember, he has finally returned to Ithaca. He has been reunited with Telemachus, but he's back in disguise. He's working through the palace, getting his bearings on these suitors and, uh, seeing how things are going to go down next. What I really mean is, the violence is coming soon.

• 9:37Liv Albert?

  This is Homer's Odyssey, Book Eighteen, translated by Ian Johnston and used with immense gratitude to the translator and Vancouver Island University. Shout out Woodgrove, sometimes my dad runs a sign shop in there. Then a vagrant from the community arrived, who used to beg through all the town of Ithaca, a beggar famous for his gluttonous stomach, with an incessant appetite for food and drink. He looked huge, but had little energy or strength. This man was called Arnaius.

• 10:18Liv Albert?

  His honored mother had given him that name when he was born, but now all young men called him Iris, since he ran around carrying messages for anyone who asked. Entering the hall, he tried to drive Odysseus away from his own home by shouting out abuse. His words had wings. "Get out of the door, old man, or you'll be hauled off by your feet. You see how they're all winking at me, telling me to pull you out? As far as I'm concerned, I'd be ashamed to do it. So get up, or else we'll fight this quarrel with our fists." Resourceful Odysseus frowned, looked at him, and said, "My good man, I'm not bothering you, nor am I shouting insults.

• 11:00Liv Albert?

  I don't mind if someone gives you something, even if he offers a generous portion. This door has room for both of us, and there's no need to care about what someone else may get. You seem to be a vagrant, just like me. Gods are supposed to make us happy men. But don't provoke me too much with your fists, in case you make me angry. Though I'm old, I might spatter your lips and chest with blood. If so, I could enjoy more peace tomorrow, for I don't think you'd come a second time to Odysseus's home, son of Laertes." That made the beggar Iris angry, so he said, "Well, how nicely this filthy beggar talks, like an old woman from the baking ovens. But I'll make trouble for him, I'll punch him with both fists on the jaw, smash all

• 11:44Liv Albert?

  his teeth into the ground, and treat him like a sow who's been devouring the crop. Come now, tighten your belt, so all these people here can recognize that we're about to fight. How can you go against a younger man?" As their tempers heated up, they both grew angry on the polished threshold beside the lofty doors. Strong and powerful Antinous observed them there, and, laughing cheerfully, shouted to the suitors, "My friends, here's something we've not seen before. God has sent this house some entertainment. There's a quarrel, Iris and the stranger. They're going to fight each other with their fists. Let's get them started now." Antinous's words made the suitors jump up laughing. They gathered there around the shabby beggars. Then Euphrates's son Antinous said to them,

• 12:29Liv Albert?

  "Listen to me, you brave suitors, I have something to suggest. We've got goats' bellies lying by the fire, stuffed full of fat and blood, our dinner meal. Whichever of these two wit men wins this fight and proves the better man, let him stand up and take the one he wishes for himself, and he will always eat his meals with us. Nor will we allow another beggar to come into our group and ask for food." Antinous finished. They were pleased with what he said. Then, resourceful Odysseus, with his crafty mind, spoke to them. "My friends, there's no way an old man weighed down with grief can fight a younger man, but that trouble-making stomach of mine urges me to try, so he may beat me with his blows.

• 13:10Liv Albert?

  But come now, let all of you swear a binding oath, that not one of you supporting Iris will use his heavy fists to strike at me unfairly, and by force overpower me on Iris's behalf." Odysseus spoke. They all vowed to act as he had asked. After they had promised and finished with the oath, Telemachus spoke up with strength and confidence, so all could hear. "Stranger, if your proud spirit and your heart drive you on to beat this man, don't fear a single one of these Achaeans. Whoever strikes at you will have to fight with more as well. I am your host, and the two princes here agree with me, Antinous and Eurymachus, both men who understand things well." Telemachus spoke, and everyone endorsed his words.

• 13:55Liv Albert?

  Then Odysseus, while hitching up the rags around his private parts, exposed his fine large thighs, and they could also see his well-muscled shoulders, chest, and powerful arms. Athena stood beside that shepherd of his people and enlarged his limbs. Each suitor, quite astonished, quickly glanced at the man beside him and muttered words like these, "Oh, Iris will soon be in trouble, something he brought on himself. He won't be Iris anymore, judging from the thighs that old man shows under those rags of his." That's how they talked. Iris's heart was badly shaken. The servants girded up his clothes and led him out. He was afraid, flesh quivering on every limb, and they pushed him forward.

• 14:39Liv Albert?

  Antinous sneered at him, addressing him right to his face. "You bragging fool, if you're afraid and tremble at this man, you should not live or even have been born. He's an old man, worn down by misfortunes that have made him feeble. I'll tell you this, and what I say will happen. If this beggar beats you and proves himself the better man, I'll throw you in a black ship and take you over to the mainland to King Echitus, who tortures everyone. With pitiless bronze, he'll cut off your nose and ears, slice away your cock and balls, and throw them to the hounds, raw meat for his dogs to rip to pieces." Antinous spoke, and an even greater trembling seized the vagrant's legs as they led him to the middle.

• 15:23Liv Albert?

  Both men raised their fists. At that point, Lord Odysseus, who had endured so much, was of two minds. Should he hit Iris so his life would leave him where he fell, or should he strike him with a less destructive blow and stretch him on the ground? As he thought about it, this seemed the better choice, to hit him with less force, so Achaeans would not look at him too closely. They both raised their fists, and Iris struck Odysseus on his right shoulder. But Odysseus then struck him on his neck, just below his ear, and crushed the bones. Immediately, blood came flowing from his mouth. He fell down, moaning in the dirt, grinding his teeth. His feet kept kicking at the ground. The brave suitors all threw up their hands and almost died of laughter.

• 16:08Liv Albert?

  Odysseus grabbed Iris by the foot and dragged him out the entranceway until he reached the courtyard and the portico gate. There he left him, leaning against the courtyard wall with his stick in his hands. Odysseus then spoke to Iris, his words had wings. "Sit there and scare away the pigs and dogs, and do not, in your miserable state, try to bully foreigners and strangers. You may end up in even worse distress." As he spoke, he threw his tattered bag, full of holes, across his shoulders, hanging by a twisted strap. Then he went back into the doorway and sat down. The suitors went inside, laughing uproariously, and threw him words of greeting as they passed him. One of the arrogant young men said something like,

• 16:51Liv Albert?

  "May Zeus and the other eternal gods give you, stranger, the thing you most desire, what fills your heart, since now you will prevent that greedy vagrant begging in this place. We'll soon take him over to the mainland to Echitus, who mutilates all men." That's how they talked. Odysseus was happy at such friendly words. Antinous sat down by him, and the immense goat stomach stuffed full of blood and fat. And Amphimimus picked two loaves from the basket, placed them before Odysseus, and then toasted him with a golden cup, saying, "Greetings, honored stranger, though right now you're facing many miseries, may happiness be yours in future days." Then, resourceful Odysseus answered him and said,

• 17:36Liv Albert?

  "Amphimimus, you seem to be a man with true intelligence. Your father, too, had the same quality. I've heard about his noble name, Nissus of Delikium, a brave and wealthy man, and people say you come from him, and you do seem discreet. I'll tell you something you should keep in mind. Listen to me, of all the things that breathe and move along the ground, earth does not raise any creature more powerless than man. He thinks he'll never suffer any harm in days to come, as long as gods provide prosperity and his knees stay supple. But when blessed gods bring on misfortunes, he bears those too, though much against his will. The father of gods and men brings us days which shape the hearts of earth's inhabitants.

• 18:21Liv Albert?

  Among men, I was set to be successful, but, yielding to my strength and influence, I did many reckless things, relying on my father and my family. No man should ever practice any lawlessness. He should hold his gifts from gods in silence, whatever they may give. I see suitors here, planning desperate acts, wasting the wealth and dishonoring the wife of a man who, I think, will not remain away for long, not from his family and native soil. He is close by. May some god lead you home, and may you not have to confront the man whenever he comes back to his own house. For I do not believe, once he returns under his own roof, he and the suitors will separate until much blood is shed."

• 19:07Liv Albert?

  Odysseus spoke. After pouring a libation, he drank some honey wine, then handed back the cup to Amphionamus. That leader of the people went through the house, head bowed, with foreboding in his heart. He had a sense that many troubles lay in store. Still, he did not escape his fate. Athena had ordained that he would be destroyed by a spear in the strong hand of Telemachus. He moved away, sitting where he had sat before. Then goddess Athena, with the glittering eyes, put an idea in the mind of wise Penelope, Acharius's daughter, to approach the suitors, so she might truly stir the feelings in their hearts and acquire more honor from her son and husband than she had before.

• 19:51Liv Albert?

  With an unnatural laugh, she spoke out and said, "Your enemy, though my heart has never once desired to show myself before these suitors, it does now, shameless though they may be, and I've got words to say to my own son. He would be better off not mingling with those arrogant suitors. They may say nice things, but they're making plans for nasty schemes in future." Old Eurimachus, her housekeeper, then answered her and said, "My child, all these things you say make sense. You must go and say that to your son, do not hide it. But first of all, you should wash your body and rub ointment on your face. Don't leave here, not like this, showing both cheeks stained with tears. It's not right to show your grief forever and never stop.

• 20:32Liv Albert?

  Your son is old enough to grow a beard, and you prayed very hard to gods that you would see him reach that age." Then wise Penelope answered her and said, "Your enemy, although you care for me, don't tell me I should rinse my body off or rub oil on my skin. Gods on Olympus have ravaged all my beauty since the day Odysseus went off in his hollow ships. Tell Hippodamia and Atanoe to come in here. They can stand beside me in the hall, for I won't go there alone among the men, I'd be ashamed." Once she said this, the old woman went through the chamber to instruct the women and urge them to appear. Then, once again, Athena, bright-eyed goddess, thought of something else.

• 21:13Liv Albert?

  She poured sweet sleep over Acharius's child, who leaned back and closed her eyes, lying on the couch, all her limbs relaxed. Meanwhile, the lovely goddess gave her immortal gifts, so those Akian men would be enchanted with her. First, she cleansed her face with a divine ointment made of ambrosia, like lotion lovely cythera rubs on her skin when she attends the joyful dancing of the graces. She made her seem taller, too, and changed her figure, so she looked more like a queen, and whitened her skin, it shone more pale than fresh-cut ivory. That done, the lovely goddess left, and white-armed servants came, all chattering as they moved from their chambers. Then sweet sleep released Penelope.

• 21:58Liv Albert?

  With her hands, she rubbed her cheeks and said, "In spite of my great grief, a deep, sweet sleep has held me in its arms. I wish pure Artemis would quickly bring a gentle death to me right now, so I no longer waste my life away, mourning in my heart and craving my dear husband, a man with every form of excellence, the finest of Akians." Once she said this, she made her way from her shining upper chambers. She was not alone, two attendants went with her. When the noble lady reached the suitor, she stood beside a pillar, holding up the well-made roof, with a bright veil across her face. Loyal servants stood there with her, one on either side.

• 22:41Liv Albert?

  The suitors, in their hearts, fell immediately overwhelmed, consumed by sexual desire. Their legs grew weak, each one of them prayed that he could go to bed with her. She began to speak, first addressing her dear son. "Telemachus, your wit and understanding are not as steady as they used to be. While still a child, the way you used to think was more astute. But now you're fully grown, on the verge of being a man. Anyone from somewhere far away, who looked at you and saw only your beauty and size, might well observe that you're a rich man's son. Yet your mind and thoughts are no longer wise. What sort of actions are going on here, in this house, when you allow a stranger to be mistreated in this way?

• 23:23Liv Albert?

  And now, what if this stranger, sitting in our home, should suffer such harm from such severe abuse? You'd be disgraced among all men and shamed." Prudent Telemachus then answered her and said, "Mother, I don't take issue with you now for being angry. I know about these things. My heart understands them, all the details, good and bad. I was still a child before, but I can't think through everything correctly. With these men sitting around me on all sides, they strike at me, devising evil plans, and I have no one here to guard me." Still, this battle between Iris and the stranger did not turn out the way the suitors wished. The stranger's strength made him the better man. By father Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, I wish these suitors now inside our home could be

• 24:08Liv Albert?

  defeated, just as Iris was, their heads drooping down inside the courtyard and inside the hall, each man's arms and legs gone limp. That's how Iris is now, sitting beside the courtyard gate, nodding his head like some drunken fool. He can't stand upright or wander home, wherever his home is, because his precious limbs have all gone slack." As they were talking to each other, each in this way, Eurymachus spoke to Penelope and said, "Child of Acharius, wise Penelope, if all Argives, our Aeasian argo, saw you, more suitors would be feasting in your home from tomorrow on, since you excel all women, for your form, your poise, and for the wisdom you have in your heart." Wise Penelope then answered him,

• 24:53Liv Albert?

  "Eurymachus, what's excellent about my form and beauty? The gods destroyed when Argives left for Troy, and Odysseus, my husband, sailed with them. If he would come and organize my life, then I'd be more beautiful and famous, but now I am grieving. A god has sent so much trouble. You know, when he went off and left his native land, he held the wrist on my right hand and said to me, 'Dear wife, I don't believe that all well-armed Akians will make it safely back from Troy unharmed. For Trojans, people say, are warriors, who know how to fight with spears and arrows, and guide swift-footed horses, all those skills which soon decide the outcome of a battle in impartial war.

• 25:36Liv Albert?

  So I do not know if gods will get me back, or I'll be killed over there in Troy. You must take control of everything back here. While I'm away, take care of my parents in the palace, the way you do right now, but when you see our son has grown a beard, then marry whom you wish and leave the house.'" That's what he said. Now it's all happening. The night will come when some hateful marriage will be my lot. For now I am accursed. Zeus has deprived me of my happiness, and painful grief has come into my heart, into my spirit. The way you men behave was not proper for suitors in the past. Those who wish to court a noble lady, daughter of a wealthy man, and compete against each

• 26:17Liv Albert?

  other, bring in their cattle, their own rich flocks, to feast the lady's friends and offer splendid gifts. They don't consume another's livelihood and pay him nothing."

• 26:29Liv Albert?

  Penelope finished. Long-suffering Odysseus was pleased that she was getting them to give her gifts, with charming, soothing words, her mind on other things. Then Antinous, son of Eupithys, spoke to her. "Child of Acharius, wise Penelope, if one of the Akians wants to bring a gift for you in here, you should accept it. It's not good if you refuse a present, but we will not return to our estates or any other place until you marry whoever is the best of the Akians." Antinous spoke. The suitors all agreed with him, and each man sent a herald out to fetch some gifts. One of them brought back, at Antinous's bidding, a large and lovely robe with rich embroidery.

• 27:11Liv Albert?

  On it hung golden brooches, twelve in all, each one fitted with graceful, curving clasps. Another man brought in a chain of gold made for Eurymachus, a finely crafted pendant strung with amber beads, glowing like the sun. Two attendants carried back some earrings for Euridamis, with three droplets in a stylish, shining cluster. For Pisander, Polytor's son, an attendant brought a necklace, a splendid piece of jewelry. All Akians offered her some sort of gorgeous, costly gift." Noble Penelope then left and went upstairs. Her servants carried up the lovely gifts for her. Then the suitors turned to joyful songs and dances, enjoying themselves and waiting for the sunset.

• 27:56Liv Albert?

  And as they entertained themselves, black evening came. They set up three braziers in the hall for light, and stacked hard-seasoned wood around them, dry kindling freshly split by axe, placing torches in between. Odysseus's servants held up the blazing flames. Then Odysseus, born from Zeus, man of many schemes, addressed those slaves in person. "Servants of Odysseus, your master, who has been away so long, go to the rooms the honored queen lives in, and twist the yarn beside her. Sit down there, make her happy by staying in the room, or combing wool by hand.

• 28:37Liv Albert?

  As for these lamps, I'll keep providing light for all these men, even if they wait here for fair-throned dawn. They cannot wear me down, for I'm a man who can endure much suffering."

• 28:50Liv Albert?

  Odysseus spoke. The slaves looked at each other and burst out laughing. Then fair-cheeked Melantho, daughter of Doleus, spoke out shamelessly. Penelope had raised her, treating her as her own daughter, providing toys, whatever she desired. And yet, in spite of this, her heart was never sorry for Penelope, for she loved Eurymachus and had sex with him. In an abusive speech, she rebuked Odysseus. "You idiotic stranger. You're a man whose mind has had all sense knocked out of it. You've no desire to sleep just anywhere, not in a blacksmith's home or public house. Instead, you're here and babbling all the time around these throngs of men. You're far too brash.

• 29:32Liv Albert?

  And there's no fear in your heart. In fact, the wine has stolen your wits, or else your spirit has always been that way and forces you to prattle on. Are you playing the fool because you beat up that beggar, Iris? Take care. Another man, better than him, does not quickly come to stand against you. His heavy fists will punch you in the head, stain you with streams of blood, and shove you out and send you packing from this house." With an angry frown, crafty Odysseus then answered her and said, "You bitch. I'll go and tell Telemachus the way you talk, so he can cut you up limb from limb right here." Once Odysseus spoke, his words made the women afraid, and they scattered, moving off and fleeing through the hall.

• 30:14Liv Albert?

  Each of them could feel her limbs growing slack with fear. They all believed he was telling them the truth. Then Odysseus stood by the flaming braziers, keeping them alight. He looked at all the men, but in his chest, his heart was making other plans, which he would act upon.

• 30:45Liv Albert?

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• 31:26Liv Albert?

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• 32:11Liv Albert?

  So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad, and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 33:26Liv Albert?

  All right, I am here. I've just been scrolling through Spotify comments, hoping for a good question. I do have one. It's not directly about this episode, but just one, just a few back. This comes from, I'm going to assume I'm pronouncing it Ryan, I'm sorry if I got this wrong, who says, "I am re-listening to this episode, but did this dude..." This is episode 15, by the way. The comment is on 15, book 15. "But did this dude basically tell Telemachus that he's a murderer behind all the confusing family tree stuff? And they were just like, 'Cool, feel free to sail with us.' I feel like this isn't the first time we've heard of this either. Do you know any of the reasoning behind this?" Yes, I do, and thank you for asking. So this is in reference to Theoclimenus. Uh, Theoclimenus, I don't know, there's so many ways.

• 34:10Liv Albert?

  Uh, that's the prophetic character that just like rolls up to Telemachus when he's at Pylos about to sail home, and he's like, "Hey, can I come with you? I like killed a guy, so I kinda, the people are after me and I kinda gotta go." Whoops. Um, and it does sound so absurd to us, but it is actually very much a cultural touchstone when it comes to mythology specifically. I'm not quite as familiar with like the real-life implications. I imagine this was a real-life thing, at least in an earlier period, maybe just the, you know, Iron Age, maybe beyond.

• 34:52Liv Albert?

  But that's all to say, specifically in myths, we get this, it's a very common trope, where someone kills someone, often it's an accident, they accidentally kill someone, and so the punishment for that is, um, uh, being forced to leave. Um, there's a word, that's just not, it's just on the tip of my tongue. And it's not to ostracize them, because that was a formal process, which actually I'll mention in a bit. But the basic idea is that you were like banished from your homeland. Mythologically, it seems that the implication was that through that banishment,

• 35:35Liv Albert?

  you then had to go, um, get redemption by, like, essentially just asking for it. So you would like go to a different kingdom and ask them to help you or take you in or bring you somewhere. Like, it was just, it was common practice that you could be like, "Hey, I accidentally killed a guy. Can I like run away with you?" Um, it's actually, I believe, and I don't know the source on this, but I believe it's mythologically how Patroclus ended up living with Achilles' family when they were younger. It's like why they grew up together. It's because Patroclus accidentally killed someone and was banished from his homeland,

• 36:14Liv Albert?

  and then was welcomed into Achilles' homeland by his father, Pelias, the king. Um, and so it is this common practice that sort of just the, I mean, I don't know, you know, it's usually this like accidental death. It's less about like a straight murder. There might be different ramifications for that. But we're really talking in like a pre, um, super-formalized governmental structures, right? Like, this was before anything was kind of formalized. That's just sort of the thing. It's why Heracles has to go on part of his journey, right? Like, his labors are part of that.

• 36:55Liv Albert?

  They're like the retribution, because he has to leave his home, because he, in his, you know, divine rage, whatever, killed his family. It's actually quite common and truly odd to us today, particularly in this scene where it's like, "Hey, here's my story. So like, I killed some guy. Uh, can I come with you?" And it's like, "Yeah, yeah, no, you can. Um, that's fine. Totally cool. No questions asked." It is very odd, but it is also, yes, very common. It's actually why the ending, not to spoil it, but you know, you know what's coming, and it's coming very soon. But at the end, in, like, it's why the ending of the Odyssey is so bizarre. Like, Odysseus and Telemachus kill everyone, which in typical practice

• 37:40Liv Albert?

  would mean that they would be forced to leave Ithaca and seek redemption. Usually it's that you have to go to like a foreign kingdom or something, and then you can like ask for their redemption or forgiveness or something. Like, they can kind of, like, another king can grant that to you. I don't totally know how it works with like going back or what have you. But basically, like, after Odysseus and Telemachus kill everyone, like, for all intents and purposes, like, they would need to leave Ithaca and go seek, you know, that kind of purification elsewhere. But that is made moot, because Athena comes in and she's like, "No, no, no, it's okay, actually, because daddy and I say so. Um, just be cool, go back to your houses, forget this ever happened."

• 38:24Liv Albert?

  And like, that is the only reason the Odyssey can end without Odysseus leaving Ithaca for good, um, because of his murders. And it is delightful. Now, ostracism, I'm not sure how much we've talked about this. If we haven't done it in more detail, I think this is maybe a good, like, Hermes Historia bonus episode for Patreon, getting Michaela to explain ostracism in better detail. But ostracism is a delightful word, um, that is, of course, you know, a common English word now. It comes from the Greek ostrakha, and ostrakha are... It's so interesting that ostracism now means like being ostracized.

• 39:05Liv Albert?

  It means like being removed from your, um, from your culture, your civilization, your country, your city, whatever, like being forcibly removed, you know, as a punishment. Um, or obviously, it can be like being ostracized from a group, just kind of being kicked out, whatever. But the actual origins of this word come from ostrakha. And ostrakha is literally just a broken piece of pottery. And in Athens, during at least a period, I'm not going to pretend to know, you know, how long this lasted. It was typically like, I think it was fairly common under like democratic, the brief democratic Athens, but certainly like classical Athens. Is that every, I don't know how often it would happen, but like some, on a regular basis,

• 39:49Liv Albert?

  uh, the Athenian people, and by people, I mean like the demos, so the electable, like the men who could vote. So just the very specific Athenian men, a very small subset of the population, if you can believe it. But the Athenian men who were able to participate into, in democracy, would cast votes for somebody that they wanted to kick out of town.

• 40:12Liv Albert?

  And like, I think that there would be, you know, you've kind of like fight your case or against it or whatever. But basically, like, every once in a while, they would just come together and be like, okay, who do we want to kick out? And they would use ostrac a, which are just these broken pieces of pottery. So it's just like reusing scraps of paper, um, to like pull out of a hat. It's literally the equivalent of like pulling a name out of a hat in scraps of paper. But these are little potshirts. And so they would like, take a broken piece of pot and like, scratch someone's name in there, slice the knees and, you know. Um, and then whoever got the most votes was ostracized. And it is wild, um, but also just kind of delightfully weird. Uh, and what's fun is, I think particularly

• 40:57Liv Albert?

  in the museum at the Agora, um, in Athens, because this would happen in and around the Agora, this is like where law related things would happen. Um, or like, you know, nearby, the Agora is marketplace, but, um, it's where the evidence ends up. But if you go to that museum, there are a bunch of these little pieces. And so you get, um, actually, there's some at the, uh, the Karamikos, the ancient cemetery, too. Just, this is for people going to Athens. Go check these places out because they're delightful. Um, but you, there's all of these little pieces, just these broken pieces of pottery, and you can see people's names scratched in. And there are cases where we've found people's names who like, we know from like, tons of other evidence, that they were like, fully ostracized and kicked out

• 41:38Liv Albert?

  of town and stuff. So it's really, it's just like, uh, I, I really enjoy that, that overall idea. It really reflects just like this developing culture and like, figuring out how these things work, right? Like, it starts in this earlier form with somebody like Theoclimanus, or Theoclimanus, who, who accidentally kills someone and then has to, basically, he has to ostracize himself and go get, you know, purification or what have you. Like, the purification part's a little bit less clear here in the Homeric text specifically, but elsewhere mythologically, it seems like that's what you're going to get by leaving. But

• 42:19Liv Albert?

  it's just a fascinating thing to kind of watch that then transform into something like ostracism. And also just the fact that like, that was, like, they did have prisons and jails and stuff, but, uh, uh, uh, obviously, it was really difficult. And like, it would be for very specific types of people. Um, and also often just like for the trial, less so permanently, because like, they didn't have the, the functionality for that, like imprison people. Also, it's such a, it feels like such a modern concept to just be like, no, just lock him away and throw away the key. Like, instead, it was, you know, I mean, in the case of someone like Socrates, he was imprisoned and then put to death. But otherwise, it was just like during trial and then, you know, you're just kind of gone.

• 43:04Liv Albert?

  You're kicked out, gotta go figure it out. And it's just, it's an interesting sort of way to watch history transform. Um, and thank you for that question, because it was great. And I mostly just have other lots of, uh, big boosts of support in my comments, which I really appreciate, including more comments on the episode that I was just saying that I was, um, a bit, um, you know, unsure about, just because of how much it was, just straight rambling. Um, but I, so I really appreciate seeing everyone's, uh, comments. And that's all to say, I think that's the only one I have today. Get your, uh, questions in for future episodes, if you have them.

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• 44:46Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad, and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 45:36Liv Albert?

  There was no way Athena would allow the suitors, those arrogant men, to stop behaving badly. So even more distress would sink into the heart of Laertes's son, Odysseus. So Eurymachus, son of Polybus, began shouting to the suitors, insulting Odysseus to make his comrades laugh. "Listen to me now, those of you courting the splendid queen, so I may speak to you of what the heart here in my chest is urging. Their gods were not unwilling, this man came into Odysseus's home. In fact, I think the torchlight emanates from his own head, because he's got no hair up there at all." Once he had said this, then he called to Odysseus, destroyer of cities. "Stranger, do you like work? What if I hired you for some distant

• 46:19Liv Albert?

  farm? I guaranteed I'd pay. Gathering stones to build up walls or planting lofty trees? I'd bring some food there for you all year round, clothe you, get some sandals for your feet. But since you've only learned to misbehave, you won't want to acquaint yourself with work. No, you'd prefer to beg throughout the land, collecting food for your voracious gut." Resourceful Odysseus then answered him and said, "Eurymachus, I wish the two of us could have a contest working in the spring, when long days come, both mowing down the grass. I'd have a curved scythe in my hands, and you with one just like it. Then we'd test ourselves in lush grass with no food to eat till dusk. If we had oxen

• 47:00Liv Albert?

  there, the best there are massive tawny beasts, both well-fed on grass with strength that never tire, and in a field measuring four acres and holding soil which turns beneath the plow, then you would see, if I could cut a straight, unbroken furrow. If today the son of Cronos stirred up a battle somewhere, and I had a shield, a pair of spears, and a helmet made of bronze, well fitted to my temples, then you'd see how I'd join in with fighters on the front. And you'd not chatter on, insulting me about my stomach. But you're much too proud, and your mind's unfeeling. You really think you have a great influence and power, because you mingle with a few weak men. But if Odysseus ever got back here to his native land, those doors over there, although they're really wide,

• 47:45Liv Albert?

  would quickly seem too narrow for you, as you fled outside."

• 47:51Liv Albert?

  Odysseus finished. Eurymachus, in his heart, grew even angrier. And with a scowl, he spoke. His words had wings. "You miserable man. I'll bring you trouble soon enough. You talk brashly in this way when you're in a crowd. No fear in your heart. Wine has seized your wits, or else your mind has always been like this and prattles vainly on. Have you gone mad, and just because you beat that beggar iris?" As he said this, he picked up a stool. Odysseus took a seat beside the knee of Amphinemus from Delikium, avoiding Eurymachus. So Eurymachus struck a person serving wine on his right hand. The wine jug fell and hit the ground with a resounding clang. The server gave a groan, then fell over, backwards in the

• 48:36Liv Albert?

  dirt. The suitors broke into an uproar in the shadowy halls, and one man, glancing at the person next to him, said something like these words. "How I wish that wandering stranger there had perished somewhere else before he reached this place. He'd not be causing such a fuss among us, or brawling over beggars. This meal, this splendid feast, will bring us no delight. Now this dispute has got the upper hand." Telemachus then spoke with royal authority. "You fools. You've gone insane, and in your hearts no longer hide how much you eat and drink. You must be incited by some god. So now you feasted well. Return back home. When the spirit bids, you can get some rest. Still, I'm not chasing anyone away."

• 49:21Liv Albert?

  Telemachus spoke. The suitors all bit their lips, astonished that he had spoken out so boldly. Then Amphinemus, the splendid son of Nissus, son of Lord Orithias, spoke to them and said, "Friends, when what a man says is something just, no one should get enraged and answer him with hostile words. Don't abuse this stranger, or any slaves in the home of Lord Odysseus. But come, let the wine server pour some drops into our cups, so we can make libations, and then go home and rest. This stranger here will leave him in Odysseus's palace, and Telemachus can cater to him. After all, it is his home he came to." Amphinemus finished. They were all delighted with what he said. A herald from Delikium,

• 50:04Liv Albert?

  Lord Muleus, attending on Amphinemus, mixed wine in a bowl for them and served the suitors, every one in turn. Then they poured libations on to the sacred gods, and drank sweet wine as honey. Once they had poured libations and had drank more wine to their hearts' content, they all went on their way, each man going to his own house to get some sleep.

• 50:43Liv Albert?

  Well, nerds, I have to say, I think one, one book is it for, for this week's episode. Hopefully next week I'll give you two. I realize I was looking at the math and if I leave this one as just one, then I can go two episodes for the last six books. Is that math? I don't need to be saying this into a microphone, but here we are. Thank you all so much for listening and really, uh, having read through even more new comments just to look for questions earlier. I just want to say thank you for how many of you are leaving supportive comments in my rambling episodes. It's really frustrating when I, like, I put that out because I know a lot of you do want to hear them, but I also recognize that those are not standard episodes.

• 51:28Liv Albert?

  They're not like an episode that I would recommend if someone's just like introduced to my podcast. That's the nature of having a show that has over like 800 episodes. Uh, but also people are weird with podcasts and they still feel the need to comment shitty things if something is not explicitly what they wanted it to be. Um, and also people are just weird. Somebody commented just being annoyed that I didn't say anything nice about the movie and it's like, okay, so maybe I didn't like it. And maybe you don't need to come to me to say something nice about it because everyone is saying so many nice things about it. Like go literally anywhere else. That's fine, too. Um, but that's all to say. The comments from others who are so supportive and also like

• 52:12Liv Albert?

  going to my comments to then comment on other people who are being shitty and coming to my defense. Like it really, it really makes it all worth it for me. Um, yeah, just generally, you know, being on the internet these days is less and less appealing, certainly social media. And it's one of these weird experiences with especially, you know, as someone who is questionable amounts of neurodivergence, certainly ADHD. I'm pretty sure I'm autistic though, baby. Pretty sure. It's every, every characteristic except formal diagnosis. Um, and it, it is, I have never gotten good at being a face on the internet or having to have those kinds of conversations. Um, it has

• 52:57Liv Albert?

  always affected my nervous system in a way that is like so unhealthy. And I've, you know, I've been doing this for 10 years, so I've tried to, to, you know, be a person who's just like, don't let it get to you. Don't let it get, I'm not that person. Believe me, I wish, I really wish I could be that person. Um, and it's, you know, but at the same time, like, I don't know what I would do without having this outlet, without having you all, um, where I can talk about mythology in this way and share it and teach it. And, um, I'm just really, really grateful. I will say too, like I'm working on, um, new book things and, you know, various attempts to make sure that I can continue

• 53:37Liv Albert?

  paying rent. Um, but one of the, the big things I've been really interested in is, is this idea that I've touched upon just really briefly of, of what I am calling nymphomania. Um, and so that's something I'm kind of looking at how best to share what I'm learning because most of what I am researching currently, I'm going to work out ways to make it work. We're going to have a book, I swear to God. Um, but it's really unlikely that any publishing house will want to publish the type of like, quite often depressing historical, uh, references to the longstanding and really

• 54:20Liv Albert?

  gross and semi-pedophilic, uh, like obsession that, um, the patriarchy has with, uh, keeping girls young and childlike. Uh, anyway, it's just unlikely that a publisher is going to want to publish a book that's primarily that. So we're finding a way to publish something that is not primarily that, but still related. And I want to share the research on that. Um, this is all very rambling, but I also know that if I say it into a microphone, I'm more likely to actually force myself to have to do it. So I am going to be building a Substack, technically already have one, but it doesn't have anything on it. Um, where I hopefully am going to be able to share some of that research in the form of, of articles and such. Um, yeah, it's just, it's an interesting

• 55:05Liv Albert?

  and dark dynamic, but that's all to say. I'm finding ways of bringing more content to you all and I am so grateful for all of you. And especially those of you who are patrons, it really, it means the world to Michaela and I. And also like, I'm real when I say that right now the Patreon is paying like, uh, at least half of Michaela's salary, if not more. Like we really need it. We are not flush. Um, and so if you are, if you are a person who's flush in this realm, one, congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Thank you for, um, also hopefully, you know, being a person who's sharing that with people who need it, not necessarily me, just people who need it. Um, but if you are in a

• 55:49Liv Albert?

  position that you want to sign up for our Patreon and get access to ad-free content and so much more, please do check that out. Uh, Michaela and I are really trying to bring you, uh, bonus content as well. Michaela was traveling for a little bit, but we will be back on the bonus content train. And either way, you get ad-free everything and you get our in dying devotion. And we have a really fun little Discord where everyone's chatting and really great back and forth. Um, we have a fun time. So check that out. mythsbaby.com/patreon. And to those of you who are looking for these signed book plate stickers for my Odyssey book, I am actively working on it. Right now I am just trying to figure out how to put them on, uh, my website

• 56:29Liv Albert?

  in a way that I can get, I can charge just enough to cover the cost to mail it out to you because I'm not currently in a place where I can cover those costs. So the purchase of these things is going to be very minimal. Um, just enough to cover like me physically getting it to you. Uh, and I'm just trying to figure out how to officially turn on my store for that. But the capitalism really, you know, and especially with the tariffs and the, it's just, you know, the world's not making it easy to break in to such things. And by the world, I mean the fascist American government. They're just really making it hard for everybody right now. But hey, Lindsey

• 57:10Liv Albert?

  Graham died. That was pretty cool. He was so evil. You ever just think about how somebody said that he wanted to wipe Gaza off the map and now he died? Uh, that's not karma. I don't know what is. Those are the little bits of joy that I'm bringing into my day. And this was a weird way to end the episode, but it's a weird time to be alive and speaking into a microphone. So here we are. Stay tuned for more soon. Michaela will be bringing you lots of fun historical episodes, Hellenistic period goodies. And we've got a bunch of conversations that are recorded

• 57:52Liv Albert?

  and we're just figuring out where and when to slot them in. So much is coming and we love you all. Let's talk about Myth Baby is written and produced by me. I almost said I was, my name was Michaela. We're doing great. Good morning to me. My name is Liv Albert. Michaela Penguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. We are working on bringing you lots of good things. Have you checked out? If you want more of the Odyssey that's actually based on Homer, you are Odysseus, the incredibly beautifully recorded and like, I don't even know how to describe all the like audio bits and like whole soundscaping that she was able to put in, but that is incredible. That is available wherever

• 58:34Liv Albert?

  you get your podcasts. You are Odysseus. And also Ancient History 101 is our other new show and they are doing incredible stuff with ancient history topics. Absolutely love it. Let alone all the other shows doing amazing things. Partial Historians, Movies We Dig, The Azamandias Project, Ancient Office Hours. Oh, I hope I didn't forget anybody. Sweetbitter, I love you all. Um, this is very cool. We're working on new things. I'm trying to find motivation to exist in this world. We can do it together. Thank you all so fucking much. Honestly, I just, oh, I literally couldn't

• 59:17Liv Albert?

  do it without you all. You're the best and your support and your, your little notes of support really, really keep me going. Thank you all. I love, I am Liv and I love this shit. Do I love Christopher Nolan? I'm so fucking lutely not, but I love, love this shit.

• 59:49Speaker 05

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