271. "He hid $30K of debt a month before our wedding"

Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich speaks with Sana and Arhem, both 27 and newly married. One month before their wedding, Arhem revealed that he had hidden $30,000 of credit card debt. After they both lost their jobs, Sana discovered that he had fallen even further into debt without telling her. Today, they earn $188,000 a year and have created an aggressive plan to tackle their $165,000 of total debt. But while their numbers are improving, the betrayal has fundamentally changed their relationship. Sana has become the financial orchestrator, while Arhem feels like a student trying to prove that he can be trusted again. In this episode we uncover: • Why Arhem hid $30,000 of credit card debt before their wedding • How Sana discovered that the debt had grown again • Why the financial betrayal nearly ended their relationship • How they are rebuilding trust after years of secrecy • Their professor-and-student dynamic with money • Why Sana feels responsible for supporting her entire family • How cultural expectations shape her financial decisions • Their $188,000 income and $165,000 of total debt • Why their highly organized financial system still feels joyless • How Arhem accumulated his credit card debt • Why earning more money will not stop Sana from worrying • The danger of postponing happiness until they are debt-free • Why their debt payoff plan may be too aggressive • The connection between joint finances and rebuilding trust • Why Ramit recommends couples therapy • How they can start prioritizing their marriage • The changes Sana and Arhem made after the conversation Chapters: (00:00:00) Introduction (00:03:09) Arhem hid $30,000 of debt before their wedding (00:08:06) “If things don’t change, the relationship is done” (00:12:40) Can Sana ever completely trust Arhem again? (00:15:26) Their professor-and-student money dynamic (00:17:35) Why Sana feels responsible for supporting her family (00:28:18) Their $165,000 debt and negative net worth (00:30:27) They earn $188,000—but live like they’re struggling (00:35:12) “When do I actually get to enjoy my life?” (00:46:26) Sana’s childhood money rules (00:56:26) How Arhem accumulated his credit card debt (01:04:02) What does their Rich Life actually look like? (01:09:14) Why their relationship keeps coming second (01:17:53) Ramit reviews their aggressive debt payoff plan (01:21:46) Why they need to start spending on joy now (01:29:47) Joint finances, trust, and couples therapy (01:36:35) Putting their marriage ahead of everyone else (01:47:33) Sana and Arhem’s biggest realizations (01:55:02) Six weeks later: what changed? This episode is brought to you by: Fabric by Gerber Life | Go to meetfabric.com/RAMIT and apply today, risk-free Wispr Flow | Try Wispr Flow for free at wisprflow.ai/ramitDeleteMe | Get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code RAMIT at checkout Shopify | Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ramit If you’re part of a small group listening to this podcast that is willing to take action, I built Road to $100K for you - a step-by-step program on how to reach $100K. Join Rich Life: Road to $100K at iwt.com/100K. Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Join my Rich Life: Road to $100K program • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube Apply to be coached for free on this podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

  Are you feeling stuck with your money? Have you told yourself, I need to figure it out? But you haven't really done it? I understand that not everyone is going to sit down and read multiple books about money. I get that. That is why I created Rich Life, The Road to 100K. This is a step-by-step program that shows you how to build a money system that works. Like figuring out the date that you're going to have $100,000 invested, how to automate your money, and how to cut through the noise. Plus, you will get access to weekly live events and a community of like-minded people, plus a library of my best materials. This is the program that will finally help you get on track with your money,

• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  and you can join today at iwt.com/100k.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Arham had told me that he was in debt a month before our wedding.

• 0:53Ramit Sethi?

  How much debt did he tell you he was in the first time?

• 0:56Speaker 01

  30 grand of credit card debt. It was like being stabbed.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  In my mind, I thought, okay, well, if I don't tell her, then that means that I don't burden her with it.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  I worry a lot about my family. I worry about my sister. I didn't think that I would need to worry about my partner.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  She did have 100% trust in me, and I lost it. Essentially what Sana said, if things don't change, then the relationship is done.

• 1:20Ramit Sethi?

  I think that you've made a fundamental miscalculation.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  I want to get to a stable place where I can help my family the way I want to without feeling limited myself.

• 1:32Ramit Sethi?

  Right now, you have no connection to feeling joy. Your worldview is so deeply embedded in the idea that you need to be in control of everything, that you'll do that until the day you die.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  It feels like I'm slowly getting crushed under it.

• 1:49Ramit Sethi?

  What would you do if you were about to get married, and you discovered your partner was hiding tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt? Today, I'm speaking to Sana and Arham. They're both 27 years old. They've been married for about a year. And they wanted to speak to me after a huge betrayal in their financial relationship. They actually both applied to speak to me. Sana, last September. Arham, just recently, just a few months ago. Listen to the difference in their applications. I found out one month before the wedding that my partner is $30,000 in credit card debt, and I felt so hurt and betrayed. I think a lot of us would feel that way. I'm very curious to talk to Sana and see what was going through her head when she discovered this.

• 2:32Ramit Sethi?

  Now, let's look at what Arham wrote just a couple of months ago. "We got very open and honest about my financial mistakes and how it could be a relationship ender. Since then, things have been much better. Where the roadblock comes in for me is that I want my wife to trust that we won't go back to that low point again." The question is, a year after being married, how do you come back from this? And what is the path forward together? Let's take a look at their conscious spending plan. Assets, $46,000. Investments, $80,000. Savings, $29,000. And debt, $165,000. Kind of interesting. Yes, they have high debt. I'm going to assume student loans.

• 3:17Ramit Sethi?

  I'd like to find out what else is there. Some credit card debt that was mentioned. $80,000 in investments is already pretty considerable in their 20s. Total net worth, negative $9,019. Fixed costs, 75%. That's higher than I would like to see, for sure, especially with that high of an income. I'm almost willing to bet that a huge part of that comes from their debt payments. Investments, 2%. That's low. Savings, 13%. Guilt-free spending, 11%. I have a lot of questions. Let's talk to Sana and Arham. I understand that you are both navigating a financial betrayal. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  We got married in December 2024, so we're a relatively young couple.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  We talked about finances before we got married, and I remember I'd broken down my entire system. And Arham had told me, he's like, oh, like, I don't do it like that, but I have it figured out. And so I didn't question it further. Arham had told me that he was in debt, maybe a month before our wedding, and then like a week after we had signed our lease. I didn't know about this. I would have planned about the apartment and the size of our wedding differently if I'd known. But we got married, and then Arham was all like, I have this debt. I'm not going to go into more debt. But then things got to a really deep pit in the middle of the summertime last year. We were already going through some financial troubles

• 4:51Speaker 01

  because we both lost our jobs for different reasons. And Arham had gone a little bit deeper in his debt, but he hadn't told me. And so it felt like I was thrown under the bus a second time. I hate the idea of living in debt, and I can't keep going deeper, and you need to take this as seriously as I do.

• 5:10Ramit Sethi?

  How much debt did he tell you he was in the first time?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  It was about 30 grand of credit card debt.

• 5:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what did you feel when he told you that?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  It was like being stabbed. If I had known before we had started looking for apartments, we would have gone with a different price point. We could have found a little bit more affordable place. And so I had dreams of what our life would look like, and it felt like it's not the same.

• 5:39Ramit Sethi?

  And when you say stabbed, what do you mean?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  I have spent my whole life avoiding debt. I know my parents struggled. I've, I know how hard my parents worked to pay it off. And so I was in no debt. I went to college on a full ride. I was going to be a teacher, and I had taken out loans and grants, but they all were forgivable if I'd served a certain number of years. And so I had always calculated my life to be debt-free, so I wouldn't feel that same burden. And so it felt like I had gone through so much effort to avoid this point, but I, through no fault of my own, I was still put into debt.

• 6:24Ramit Sethi?

  When he told you he had $30,000 of credit card debt a month before the wedding, what was your response?

• 6:32Speaker 01

  We talked about like, what would our timeline look like for kids? For buying a home? It's like, well, the home is out of the question at this point. And I told them then that I am not ready to start a family until that debt is paid off. If that means five years, five years. If that means seven years, seven years. But it's not going to be as soon as we both thought.

• 6:53Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. Arham, go back to that conversation a month before the wedding. What do you remember about that moment?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  I remember we were buying furniture for the apartment, and I think that's, that was kind of the catalyst that led to this conversation. Because I knew that I was about to be let go from the company. And so I was already nervous about that, and the wedding was coming up. And so I didn't know how long the job search would take. So then, that's why I was nervous about getting this furniture. And so then that's when Sana asked like, you know, why do you feel so nervous about it? And then that's when I shared what was actually causing me this much anxiety.

• 7:31Ramit Sethi?

  Why didn't you bring it up earlier?

• 7:32Speaker 02

  I knew that it was bad, but I guess I wanted to shield her from it, which is why I didn't want to share it. And so I thought, okay, I'll come up with a plan on my own. I'll, I'll deal with it on my own and handle it on my own, essentially. Because I didn't want the burden to be on her. And I guess in my mind, I thought, okay, well, if I don't tell her, then that means that I don't burden her with it.

• 7:57Ramit Sethi?

  Where did you get that reasoning from?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I feel like that was kind of the behavior that was modeled to me.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  That's, that's kind of the dynamic between my parents and that my mom is a worrier, and then my dad is, you know, he, he kind of takes on debt. He handles the bigger expenses. And whenever my mom brings up a concern, he sort of hand waves it away, saying, I'll figure it out. I'll take care of it. And so that's kind of what made sense to me that I don't really see a point in telling her about it because it's not her responsibility to take care of. It's my problem to solve, I guess, is the way that I reasoned it.

• 8:34Ramit Sethi?

  What was the fallout from you telling Sana about your debt the first time? And then the second time that you had gotten into more debt?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  So the first time, I feel like it brought a little bit of a cloud over all of the wedding, because the wedding was then the next month after that. And then after the second conversation, that's when it was the real low point. That's, and essentially what Sana said, which is what I took to heart, that, you know, if things don't change, then the relationship is done, essentially.

• 9:04Ramit Sethi?

  You said that, Sana?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  That was the implication of what I said, yes.

• 9:08Ramit Sethi?

  What did you actually say?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  I don't get panic attacks, but I started like wheezing, needed to use my inhaler, which I never use. Yeah, it just felt like I'm putting in so much effort on my own, and my partner is not matching that energy. And if we are not aligned, then I can't keep doing the heavy lifting, and this relationship won't last as long as forever.

• 9:39Ramit Sethi?

  Now, looking back at that second conversation, what do you think Sana was going through when she realized you were in even more debt?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Sana is very methodical, and she's grown up through hard times, financially difficult times. And it would be one thing if, if she put herself in that position. But I think what she felt is that something out of her control now put her in a tough position. And I feel like there was a phrase she said at the time that like, she's sinking underneath, and she doesn't know how to do anything about that. And it was primarily because of me that we were in a difficult spot.

• 10:21Ramit Sethi?

  How accurate is that?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  That's pretty accurate. I worry a lot about my family. I worry about my sister. I didn't think that I would need to worry about my partner. And I've always wanted us to be on a team and approach life together. But it felt like I already have so much on my plate. And I told Aram that like, there's only so much I can handle. And at some point, I would break and then that would be the end. And so the last summer was difficult. But um, something clicked for Aram. I gave him your book. He read it.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Uh, we started listening to her podcast together. We put together our CSP. We consolidated all of his debt. And so now it's paying it off as aggressively as possible. I'm very grateful that Aram has learned because he cares about a relationship. So I'm glad that piece is there. It's just, it's gonna take us a couple of years to get out of the pit that we're in.

• 11:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Wow. That's pretty impressive. I just wanna say, have you both acknowledged how much has changed in the last few months?

• 11:44Speaker 02

  I, I think we tried to. I think she does a better job at saying, you know, I'm, I'm proud of you and I, and I see what you're doing. I, I guess I have a tough time in, in seeing that progress because I know how bad of a spot we were in before. And kinda seeing the way that she was that day, I still see her, see it clear as day. Like, I, I just didn't wanna go back to that, how she was that day. Yeah. And so to me, that felt like the thing that clicked that day.

• 12:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Two things really impressed me about this couple. First, that Sana said, hey, this is not okay. And if you don't make changes, then this relationship as it is, can't go on. That takes a lot of courage. That takes standards and boundaries. And so when I heard that, I'm making a mental note of it, saying, wow. She can really call the ball. She saw what was going on. She said, that's not acceptable. This is what I expect. And especially in the South Asian culture, where ending a new marriage would be a big deal. That takes a huge amount of courage. Then I wanna note that Aram also responded to that.

• 12:55Ramit Sethi?

  He was like, whoa, this is serious. I better fix this right now. And he has done that. You'll notice that sometimes when people have huge amounts of debt, one partner will not be as clear as Sana was. They'll dance around it. They'll say, it would be nice if. She just said, this is what I expect. You'll also notice that sometimes the people who incurred the debt will come up with excuses. They'll have reasons. They'll try to push the ball back to the other person. No, in this case, he said, I messed up. I'm making the plan. And he has stuck with that plan now for months and months. It's really quite impressive for both of them, if you think about it. So the two of you are here now. You have a plan. You've been paying off the debt.

• 13:40Ramit Sethi?

  What about the trust? Where are you with the trust when it comes to money?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  I'm operating at a deficit. I'm still not at a hundred percent trust because she did have a hundred percent trust in me and, and I lost it. So now I have to regain it back.

• 13:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I would say it's being rebuilt. I've, I see where we were last summer and it's been almost a year since that point. And so we've come hundreds of miles here. But I wouldn't say that I have blind trust.

• 14:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:13Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think you ever will?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  I think so. I think it'll take time. I think the marker for me would be when Aram climbs out of that credit card debt. And then is able to show that he can stay out of it permanently.

• 14:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Some people will never have blind trust. I think that's okay. Some people will, that's okay too. But I like that you have a vision of what it will take for you to trust him again with the money. How does money flow in your lives? Like, just paint the picture for me. You both get paid and what happens?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  We have not combined our finances. And so we get paid out from work separately into our own accounts. And then we've set up our CSP. And so we automate what goes where. And then after all of that is done, is what is left over for us to enjoy.

• 15:09Ramit Sethi?

  So do you have a joint account at all?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So like, somebody might pay the rent. Somebody pays groceries. Is that how it works?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we designated that. Okay, I'm gonna take care of this. You take care of that. But we pay out of our own accounts.

• 15:24Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay. And how do you feel on a monthly basis about money?

• 15:29Speaker 02

  I, I have to be very strict and very vigilant. And it, it does feel a little bit constrained. But I also feel that it's helpful for me right now to be somewhat constrained.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  I'd say that I've never felt like fully free to do whatever I want with my money. But since last year, I've been tracking like everything. And so now I know exactly where my income is going. We've cut down how much we have for guilt free spending. But we're very intentional with what we do with it. And then I'm also working on telling myself that it's okay if I spend on myself. Because I know that's something that I've struggled with my whole life.

• 16:12Ramit Sethi?

  You say yes to other people before you say yes to yourself?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:16Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, okay. In your entire relationship, not just in the last six months, but in your entire relationship. What role does each of you play?

• 16:25Speaker 01

  I feel like, like an orchestrator. Or like, sometimes like the mad hatter. Um, I feel like I know everything that is expected of me and everything that I have to do. And so I take care of those things first. And then whatever is left is for me. Oftentimes, it's not enough for me, but I'm okay with that.

• 16:51Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay. Do you have your hands in too much? Or just the right amount?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Leaning on too much. But I can do it.

• 17:01Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, okay. What's your role?

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Before last summer, I felt like she was kind of nagging or nosy about money. And then I was either trying to avoid talking about it or just sort of hand wave it away. Like, you know, I'll, I'll figure it out. Why are you being on my case? Now I, I feel like Sana's like a professor, then I'm like a student. And I say, hey, like, look at how I did. Did I do good this time? I, I really want to show her that I am taking, I'm still taking that day seriously and that time seriously. Yeah, I, I do feel like she's an orchestrator and I guess I'm, I, I guess student teacher maybe, like.

• 17:40Ramit Sethi?

  What, what should the roles be? Cause if these are the roles that you want, we can build around that. But if not, tell me, what roles do you think that you would like to both be?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  I would like for both of us to have equal roles and responsibility, like a colleague. I don't want there to be a hierarchy.

• 18:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  And so if he wants to be my co-conductor of my orchestra.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I would like for both of us to act as like, you know, two C-suite members, maybe as, as part of a business. Like, but I feel like in a successful business, if there are two, two higher ups around the same level. They have a trust in each other and they don't have to check in on each other so frequently.

• 18:24Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay. That's good to know that that's the vision of where you wanna go. Uh, Sana, you mentioned that you feel that you have to over prepare sometimes. What does that mean? How does it show up?

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I help my parents financially. Um, my dad used to talk about buying a home. And he's like, yeah, we can do it. So I was all like, okay, like I wanna help you with that. And so I had saved up a certain amount. We didn't end up buying a home, but they did move apartments. And so I've been helping them financially with that. My sister went through some hard times last year and, and I was helping her financially as well. I've also left my profession. And so I do have to pay back those grants. I'm in my second master's program.

• 19:14Ramit Sethi?

  What are you getting your masters in?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  In undergrad, I was so committed to being a teacher. I went to a master's program, became a teacher, taught for a couple of years. But then I burned out very quickly. And I knew that it wasn't sustainable. And so I stepped away. I went through a little bit of like a midlife crisis in terms of my career. And so I pivoted. I got my undergrad year in math. I'm a data analyst now. I'm getting my second masters in data science. With the goal of like, getting as proficient as I can in data science.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And then with also the goal of maximizing my income as fast as I can, as early as I can. Just so I can do everything that I want to do.

• 20:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  But I'm taking out loans intentionally for the first time. But it feels like with all of these things, there's less space for me.

• 20:20Ramit Sethi?

  Hearing you describe it feels overwhelming to me. I can't imagine how it feels for you.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28Ramit Sethi?

  What's going through your head as you think about it? It's okay if you need to take a minute.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Nobody puts this responsibility on me, but I put it on myself. I know that my parents worked hard, my mom especially. She did a lot for me. And so as they get older, as I get older, I wanna take some of their burdens off their shoulder. And so when they had moved apartments, I had agreed, like, I wanna support you. And so I have been. My sister and I agreed that we would go, we would have a certain amount that we would support our parents with. And then she lost her job. And so I took on her share. And so I was doing double what I had first agreed to.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  I want to get to a stable place where I can help my family the way I want to without feeling limited myself.

• 21:29Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, I can see that. You start off with the best of intentions. You still wanna help them. Things come up, your sister loses her job. Suddenly you're now responsible for double the amount than you had thought. Do you ever say no to your family?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  They tell me not to help them.

• 21:48Ramit Sethi?

  They tell you not to? And your response is?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  I can't stop.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Because I know what my parents' income is and I know that their apartment would be too much if they paid for it completely on their own. And so I don't want to put the burden on them. And so right now I can help. And so I want to.

• 22:14Ramit Sethi?

  Does it feel good?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like I can always do more for them.

• 22:20Ramit Sethi?

  Interesting answer.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:23Ramit Sethi?

  Any surprises, Arham, hearing? What's Sana saying?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  At least what I see is I don't really know how much more she can do without stretching herself even further out.

• 22:34Ramit Sethi?

  You don't have a brother, do you?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  No, we're two sisters.

• 22:37Ramit Sethi?

  Are you the oldest?

• 22:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, you know, usually

• 22:43Ramit Sethi?

  we hear men saying, I can do more, I can take on more, I can take a burden, whatever. If I have to work seven days a week and get sick, no problem, I'll do it. Like grind my body into the ground.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  My dad tells me and my sister that we're like sons to him and I laugh it off. But like he says it because we, we, the two of us pushed ourselves as far as we could go. We got it to great schools. We both made sure we're not going to put a burden financially on our parents to go to college. So we made sure that we had scholarships to cover it. And like we've gone way further than anyone expected. And so I don't know, in like South Asian culture, that's the role of a son.

• 23:31Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. That's helpful. Think about what it means to take on more and more burdens from more and more people. If you're strong, you can take those burdens on. It might actually feel good for a while, but over time, those weights get heavier and heavier. You start to shrink. It's small, it's restrictive. It limits what you can do in your own life because you're simply following what other people have put upon your shoulders. I'm actually really glad that I get to speak to them because there's a large cultural role happening as well. Typically, the oldest son is the one who's responsible for his parents. But because Sana does not have brothers, she is the oldest.

• 24:14Ramit Sethi?

  She has essentially seamlessly stepped into the role of needing to take care of her parents. There's also dynamics around who's the responsible one. What do we talk about? What is okay and what is not okay? But if you were raised in the South Asian culture, you invariably know these rules. I know that we're here because Arham had a ton of credit card debt and he betrayed her by not being honest about it. That is not okay, but Sana also has a role to play. In fact, when I speak to couples, almost always I find that they have co-created the dynamic that they find themselves in.

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  Policies issued by Western Southern Life Insurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. My team at IWT is fully remote and I love that. Because of that, we're constantly sending messages through Slack, through Google Drive, through all kinds of different technologies. And that's why my team is such a big fan of Whisperflow. Whisperflow turns the way you naturally talk into clean, ready-to-send texts in any app, on any device. I'm talking about Slack, Gmail, Notion, iMessage, even ChatGPT and Claude on Mac, Windows, and Android. With Whisperflow, you just hit a hotkey, speak, and the text appears way faster than typing it.

• 27:02Ramit Sethi?

  Plus, it's smart, it's adaptive, so you don't send a block of huge incoherent text. And unlike other dictation apps, it corrects mistakes, it gets names right the first time, and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful. So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking, Whisperflow is a no-brainer. Get one month of Whisperflow Pro for free at wisprflow.ai/ramit. That's wisprflow.ai/ramit. W I S P R flow.ai/ramit, or click the link in the description. Can we take a look at your numbers?

• 27:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Sana, can you read the word in bold and then the combined number next to each of these for the whole box? Go ahead.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Assets are forty-six thousand two hundred fifty. Investments are eighty thousand eight hundred forty. Savings are twenty-nine thousand four hundred sixty. Debt is one hundred sixty-five thousand five hundred sixty-nine with a total net worth of negative nine thousand nineteen dollars.

• 28:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what do you think about those numbers?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  They're not positive. I would love for them to be positive.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  I think we have a long way to go. This is the starting line of where we're beginning.

• 28:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Arham, what do you think about the numbers?

• 28:34Speaker 02

  I don't think that they're reflective of the kind of income or the kind of profession or the high standards I think that we both hold ourselves to. And so, but like Sana said, they're a starting point for now.

• 28:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what's the 165K in debt? What makes up that number?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  For my debt, I have about seven thousand on my car. And then the rest of it is the student debt that I'm taking on for my master's program.

• 29:00Ramit Sethi?

  And then I want to ask the same question to you, Arham. Let's just say a hundred thousand dollars of debt, what makes that up?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, so fifty-two of it is student loans. Eighteen of that is a car loan with an interest rate of 3%. Like just under a thousand is a medical debt, 0% interest. And then the remainder of that is consolidation loans, which are essentially to pay off the credit card debt.

• 29:27Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, how much in all of that, the consolidation?

• 29:31Speaker 02

  You can say close to 25.

• 29:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. Twenty-five thousand in consolidated, what's the interest rate on that?

• 29:37Speaker 02

  One is 10, one is 11, so it's made up of two loans.

• 29:40Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Okay, that helps me understand. I note, by the way, that we have a disparity in savings. We have twenty-five thousand dollars in savings for Sana, four thousand four hundred dollars for Arham, and eighty thousand dollars in investments for Sana, five hundred dollars in investments for Arham. Let's go on to the income. Arham, can you read off your combined monthly income, please?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Fifteen thousand seven hundred thirty-eight.

• 30:08Ramit Sethi?

  All right, cool. So the two of you make a hundred and eighty-eight thousand dollars per year. By a show of hands, who knew that number? Wow, both. Okay, good, I believe you. You two know your numbers very well. Great job. Okay, what do you think about that number, a hundred eighty-eight thousand dollars?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  That's a fantastic income.

• 30:28Ramit Sethi?

  Good.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's quite good for the age you're at right now.

• 30:31Ramit Sethi?

  Twenty-seven, right?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Twenty-seven.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  I just turned twenty-eight.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  We're turning twenty-eight this year.

• 30:36Ramit Sethi?

  Twenty-seven, twenty-eight, okay, yeah, great income, very good. All right, let's take a look at the rest of this.

• 30:43Ramit Sethi?

  So you all, just so we highlight, you're contributing a combined seven hundred and seventy-eight dollars a month to your 401K.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:51Ramit Sethi?

  What is that, to get the match?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:53Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. You have 75% fixed costs, what do you think about that number?

• 30:58Speaker 01

  It's very high, but then we've also inflated it a bit because Arham is overpaying for his debt to pay off faster.

• 31:06Ramit Sethi?

  That's what I suspected. Taking a look at the numbers here, you have rent of three thousand six hundred dollars, which is 23%. Not bad for the area that you live in, which is expensive. Car payments at one thousand twenty total. Two car payments?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:23Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Debt payments at 1,976 and I see Aram, that's you paying 1597 a month. That's over the minimum, I assume?

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, a big chunk of that is the consolidation loans. Basically, I'm paying two times the amount of payment that's necessary.

• 31:41Ramit Sethi?

  So that'll, that'll raise this number considerably. Just to play with the number here, let me just take this down to, let's just say a thousand dollars. And what would happen? Yeah, you're down to 69%. So there's quite a bit of wiggle room with an income like that. Looking at the rest of these groceries are only 506, is that true?

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00Ramit Sethi?

  How is that possible? You eat at work?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 32:02Ramit Sethi?

  To hell? Tell, tell America what you eat.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Uh, we shop at our local meat market and we get everything there and so.

• 32:10Ramit Sethi?

  But go into detail because I have too many people who come on the show telling me they spend 1,500 a month for two people and there's no way for me, we can cut it down.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  A lot of it is, I feel like they see food, Asian food.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Pretty much it's chicken and rice.

• 32:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Oh my God, all roads lead back to chicken and rice.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  And different cuisines.

• 32:30Ramit Sethi?

  Love it. Okay, I don't even want to get into my whole rant about food and my chicken and rice theory, but great, love it. 506 dollars a month for two people. And you're not eating at work for free.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  And I, I will say like, that also includes sometimes you get like little treats and stuff and.

• 32:49Ramit Sethi?

  Like what?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Like sometimes we'll get cookies or like sparkling juices and stuff.

• 32:53Ramit Sethi?

  Nice.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  So if we really wanted to cut it down to the bone, we could maybe make that 450, but.

• 32:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. You have cats, multiple? How many cats?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Just two.

• 33:04Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Subscriptions at 21 dollars. What is your subscription for 21 dollars?

• 33:10Speaker 01

  That's Spotify, family.

• 33:11Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing, no Netflix, no nothing.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  We leech off of family and friends.

• 33:16Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Parents, this is you, Sana, sending money to your parents?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually 600.

• 33:24Ramit Sethi?

  What the, why is it not correct here?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  It's because I have the pool that I had saved up years ago. And so I put in 200 for my paycheck and then 400 from that pool.

• 33:36Ramit Sethi?

  You're drawing from that savings?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:38Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, got it. All right, miscellaneous, you put into 160 dollars. I actually believe you, I have no comments. Okay, moving on to investments, what's this number?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Just 2%.

• 33:50Ramit Sethi?

  2%. Fine, savings are at 13%. You have 200 dollars a month for vacations, you have car maintenance, home for 360. This is for you eventually buying a house.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  I just want three months of rent saved up in a home specific account and then emergency funds for everything else.

• 34:08Ramit Sethi?

  Great. I like the way that you've structured this. I really like that it's methodical. You know, you've made choices like I wouldn't make. Well, I wouldn't own cats. But I like that you, everything has a rationale for it. It's like walking into somebody's house and there's a nice little organization system for everything. That's really, really helpful. And then finally down to guilt free spending, 11%. I believe this. What do you spend this 1,143 dollars a month on?

• 34:35Speaker 02

  I mean, it's really just eating out. Every so often, like maybe I'll get gifts for family or.

• 34:43Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay, I'm going to take this off screen. But I think I have a good understanding of your numbers. How do you both feel looking at that CSP?

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Honestly, I feel a little bit better about how it looks now than I used to feel about it in the past. But I also feel that it can be better. And that's what we're trying to work on is to make sure that that, that we don't feel stressed about money every month.

• 35:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I'd rather be over prepared than under. And so seeing it all broken out like that and then knowing exactly where things are going makes me feel comfortable.

• 35:19Ramit Sethi?

  Mm-hmm. Is there any happiness in money for either of you?

• 35:25Speaker 01

  I think now when we do go out to eat, we don't feel bad about spending it at a restaurant.

• 35:31Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, that's an interesting answer. Ramit, is there any happiness in money? Sana, when we eat out, we don't feel bad. The lack of feeling bad is not feeling happy. Let me ask it again. Is there any happiness when it comes to your money?

• 35:51Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say I feel happy. It's more like, okay, we have structure. So maybe it's a son's point when we go out to eat, it's like, okay, we're not worrying about, are we making the wrong decision here by eating out? Now it feels like, well, we planned for this, so we can enjoy this, at least for right now. But there's not a broad happiness, maybe to your point.

• 36:14Ramit Sethi?

  I don't think there's a narrow happiness either. It doesn't feel happy at all. It, it feels very organized, which I love. Meticulous, yes, I love that too. But interesting that I'm the only one using the word love here. It feels a bit soulless to me. Tell me if I'm reading that wrong. That is the way that it feels to me.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  It feels like we're grinding right now.

• 36:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yep.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  And so it is very structured and somewhat limited for us now. But there is an end date in sight.

• 36:49Ramit Sethi?

  And, and then what will happen?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Some other things are going to come up, but at least you won't be in debt, but um.

• 36:58Ramit Sethi?

  But I could easily foresee that the debt gets paid off. And then you go, okay, cool, we need to up our three months to six months. We need to up our payments on this to that. We need to start saving for a car and then for a house and then maybe other things. And it just becomes one series of checklist after another. Does any of this sound familiar, Sana?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:19Ramit Sethi?

  Like what?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  It's just delayed gratification. I mean, I've joked about it with Aram too. It's like, we're going to pay off this debt and then like, pretty soon after that, I'm going to have my student debt to pay off. And then we're going to have kids and then there's childcare. And so all of our debt payments now are going to be replaced with childcare costs. And I'm really glad that we'd be able to afford it. But then like, when do I get to enjoy it? It feels like never. So, yeah.

• 37:54Ramit Sethi?

  What, what is the answer to that? Because I don't think a couple making 200,000 dollars in their twenties should be living like subsistence farmers. Is the approach to just grind more?

• 38:05Speaker 01

  That is for now. I think we're gonna, I'm really glad that we're going on vacation once a year. And so it feels like, okay, we're going on vacation in seven months. When we're there, we won't have to worry about anything.

• 38:20Ramit Sethi?

  Well, vacation is good, no doubt, I love it. I don't think that really solves the systemic root here.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:27Ramit Sethi?

  It's nice, it's a trip, but that doesn't solve what's going on.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  I guess when I hear it back, it does sound very robotic and maybe a little soulless. But to me, I don't feel like our day to day life is that way. And if anything, the way that I feel, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but the way that I feel is I feel like we're on a project, like we're working towards a goal. And I actually derive some joy day to day seeing, okay, how much of the debt am I at now? I think my personal net worth when we first started the CSP was minus 82. Okay, and now it's at minus 69.

• 39:03Ramit Sethi?

  That's great.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  So, you know, to me at least, I derive some joy day to day saying, okay, I've made all this progress so far. We are making this progress so far.

• 39:12Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  So yes, it is checking off a checklist, but you know, if we were on a sports team, we're working towards a championship.

• 39:19Ramit Sethi?

  I like your pushback. And I like a couple that is united in a big, bold goal. I love that. And it takes sacrifice, which you're doing, I can tell. You know, like the way you describe your groceries, you could easily be spending a lot more. There's no doubt about that. But I'm getting many clues that while you will achieve your goal, I know you will pay off the debt, that there's perhaps a lack of meaning behind what is happening here. And I also want to help you create a vision of money that is maybe bigger and more meaningful than we fill up account after account for things that may happen. I see you nodding, Sana.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think for so long I've operated where I have to fill up these buckets for everyone else.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It feels like I know I don't spend on myself as much as I could. And so part of it is like, when I do have that, like, what would I spend it on?

• 40:26Ramit Sethi?

  You don't even know?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:29Ramit Sethi?

  Well, we can figure those out. Sana, I noticed that you get emotional when you're talking about your family and about yourself. What do you think's behind that?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  I guess the clearest example I could give, if you've watched InConso, there's the sister, Louisa, who is super strong, but she also has a ton of things put on her. She feels like just holding the world. It's a cartoon, but like, I relate to her so well. And my family has always talked about me in a way where like, Sana has things figured out. Sana's an overachiever, she's really smart.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  And so I've always pushed myself, push, push, push. And I know that it took a lot of sacrifices to get here from my family. And I want them to know that I appreciate them.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  And I guess I would say that like, my income for sure, or combined income, is higher than what my parents ever could, as hard as they worked. And now that I'm moving up in life, I can't move up and just leave them behind. And I have to take them with me.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  But it's a lot more effort and work to do that than I had ever anticipated.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  The word that I'd used when I first met Sana and when I was starting to fall for her is that she's very impressive. Like, everything that she does, she just does it exceptionally well. And I really admired that about her. But now, as I'm living with her, I see, I guess, maybe the cost of that and that the toll that it takes on her mentally and physically too.

• 42:23Ramit Sethi?

  Just imagine for a moment that you grew up in the South Asian culture. Imagine that you were the oldest child. Imagine that your parents somewhat struggle with their finances and you make more money than anybody in your family. Of course, you are going to be expected to help them. And of course, there is no concept of saying no to your family. That doesn't exist. How would you react? You might react the very same way Sana is reacting. But deep down, she also looks at her own relationship and she's realizing, this isn't the type of relationship that I thought I would find myself in.

• 43:01Ramit Sethi?

  What is she supposed to do? That is where the struggle is. Feeling trapped by so many of these external expectations and not knowing where to go next. There is obviously something going on here. And up next, I'm going to ask her how she grew up with money. It's very illuminating. I recently got a comment on my podcast asking if I really use the products that I say I do. And the answer is yes. If I tell you that I personally use and pay for a product or service, I do. That's why in so many Delete Me ads that I have hosted on this podcast, I tell you, I pay for this myself. I do, and I have for years. I love this service.

• 43:45Ramit Sethi?

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• 44:26Ramit Sethi?

  That's joindelete.me/ramit, code RAMIT for 20% off. When I was thinking about quitting my last job to do I Will Teach You To Be Rich full-time, I created a rule for myself. I couldn't go full-time with IWT until it earned at least as much as my monthly salary for three months in a row. And this really helped me take my business seriously. Now, for new business owners, I recommend something similar. And as you are getting set up, I also recommend keeping things simple by using Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, including brands like Mattel and Jimm Shark.

• 45:12Ramit Sethi?

  They've got ready-to-go beautiful templates for important things like your website, landing pages. Plus, they have helpful AI tools to make everyday tasks easier, like generating discount codes and enhancing your product images. It's like having a full marketing team behind you. They've got easy-to-run email and special media campaigns to help you connect with new customers. And everything is in one place. Tackle your inventory, payments, analytics, and more without having to jump from platform to platform. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/ramit. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/ramit. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

• 45:55Speaker 01

  My mom has this notebook. It's essentially a spreadsheet. She has a spreadsheet on paper where she has years of records. And she would like fill it out as she would pay bills every month. And so when I was flipping through a book, then I found out that we were in debt my whole childhood. And I didn't know. My sister and I didn't ask for much, but we got everything that we wanted.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  My mom was able to achieve a lot with the limited resources that she had. And then the biggest culture shock was just going to college.

• 46:31Ramit Sethi?

  Before we get to college?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  My gosh, I didn't expect to cry this much.

• 46:37Ramit Sethi?

  It's okay. Do you cry when you talk about your family in everyday conversation?

• 46:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:45Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think today?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  I carry the weight of expectations on me, whether it's I put them on myself or my family put them on me. And it feels like I'm slowly getting crushed under it. And so this is how it's released.

• 47:07Ramit Sethi?

  How do you express the feeling of having all these expectations put on you?

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Most of the time, I'm great. I don't feel weight. It's just every once in a while, it just piles up. And then this is how it releases.

• 47:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. How would you describe that?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  That I have a lot of things on my plate and that I try not to show it to other people. That I try to do everything without looking or sounding stressed.

• 47:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  But it takes a lot of work to do that. And sometimes when I try to hide it from other people, that's work in itself too.

• 47:51Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. You know, I don't get affected by stress like most people. I can take on a lot, like run a company, do all kinds of stuff. And for a long time, I told myself like, I don't feel stress the way that others do. I just don't. I don't feel it. And then my company went through a tough time and we had to do serious layoffs. And during that time, I found myself waking up gasping for air. I never had this happen in my life, ever. I went to see the doctor, doctor looked inside my mouth, basically said, nothing's wrong. Do you have any stress in your life? I laughed, like, yeah, I have a huge amount of stress.

• 48:36Ramit Sethi?

  But I simply never connected the two because I don't feel stress. And I remember walking out of there, I was in my mid to late 30s and being like, for the first time, I realize, as silly as this sounds, oh, I'm just the same as everybody else. I'm just the same. I may have a higher threshold for dealing with certain things, but I'm just the same as everybody else.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I know I am too.

• 49:05Ramit Sethi?

  Before you went to college, what was going on with money in your household with your mom and dad?

• 49:12Speaker 01

  My mom, for as long as I can remember, has always managed the money. In adulthood, I learned that when my sister and I were really young, like my dad had taken out debt at very high interest rates. And my mom studied math, and so she understood what the cost of that was. And so she said, you know what, like you work a lot, so why don't I take care of this for you? And so she managed. Things to get us out of the debt.

• 49:44Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. This sounds extremely familiar.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:50Ramit Sethi?

  Like identical.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 49:53Ramit Sethi?

  Your mom studied math. What did you study?

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Lots of math.

• 49:57Ramit Sethi?

  Your mom managed the money, made a lot of plans of getting out of debt.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:02Ramit Sethi?

  That happened. Although I will say, Arham, you made a plan as well.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted to make sure. I could solve it for Arham today. I could pay off his debt today, but it is his and I do want him to take away. The lesson of what it takes to do that. And like, I've tried. My best to hold myself back as much as possible, but at the end of the day, this is Arham's. Work to do.

• 50:32Ramit Sethi?

  That's interesting. This is quite strong of you creating a boundary, saying it's important for you to learn this lesson. I could solve it today, but I'm not going to. That's amazing. Have you ever applied that same thing to your own family?

• 50:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 50:47Ramit Sethi?

  Why the disconnect?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  My mom, single-handedly runs our home and she tries not to show her stress. And I know I learned it from her. I want to do as much as I can to take that stress off of her. And so even though she tells me not to help them with rent, I know that they could figure it out. But I don't want. I I know, I also know that my mom would be the one to figure it out instead of my parents together figuring it out. And so I don't want that extra burden on my mom. And so I try to reduce it for her.

• 51:29Ramit Sethi?

  Does it work?

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yes and no. Every single month she tells me that I feel guilty from taking this from you. I, as a parent, should be giving to you. But I tell her that, no, I want to, that I promised that I would. And I'm gonna live to that promise.

• 51:47Ramit Sethi?

  It's interesting. After you got married, you effectively told Arham. If you don't make a plan for this and deal with it, this relationship can't continue. You said that, right?

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 51:58Ramit Sethi?

  You set a boundary, maybe even changing the terms of your promise. And what was the result of that? What did he then do?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Arham's learning now.

• 52:09Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. He's going through some tough times, but he's made a plan. He's executing on it, right?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 52:14Ramit Sethi?

  You changed the terms of your promise. And the result has been, would you say, negative or positive?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  It's positive.

• 52:22Ramit Sethi?

  Very positive. And yet you can't change the terms of your promise. With your parents, specifically your mom, even though your mom has told you every single month, don't do this.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Hmm. I don't, I don't know if this is gonna make my sense, but Arham and I are partners. And so I expect of him what I expect of myself. But my parents are my parents. They're above me. I don't expect my parents to be the same as me and Arham.

• 52:54Ramit Sethi?

  It's interesting. There is a hierarchy, but we might look at it and say you treat them almost as if they're below you. Below as if they couldn't. Figure things out for themselves. Like a child.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  What?

• 53:11Ramit Sethi?

  I don't mean to insult. I hope it's not coming across. I'm very sensitive to the South Asian dynamics here. I'm very well aware of them.

• 53:21Ramit Sethi?

  It's, you know, it'd be easy for somebody who's raised here with no cultural knowledge to be like, just cut them off. Obviously, that's not what I'm saying. But when you say hierarchy. You see them as above you because that's what we are taught. Parents are above you, teachers are above you, et cetera, et cetera. But in a way. Your expectation for Arham has raised his abilities, raised.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 53:48Ramit Sethi?

  And yet the way that you have. Built this financial relationship with your parents and your mom especially, has not raised their abilities. Fair?

• 54:01Speaker 01

  I would say that because. I'm able to help them.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Every month, their. Quality of life has gone up because they are in a nicer place now than where we lived before.

• 54:17Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's totally, totally respectable. How about your quality of life?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  My quality of life is also better than where I was as a child. But I'm also under a lot of stress.

• 54:32Ramit Sethi?

  Thank you for walking me through how you grew up with money. I think it's very illuminating.

• 54:39Ramit Sethi?

  Arham, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

• 54:43Speaker 02

  I I feel like it was somewhat conflicting messages in that. Well, what I heard from my mom was. If we were walking through a store and there was a shirt I wanted to get, for example, my mom would say, I'll think about it, or maybe. And I interpreted that as probably no, because if she would have, if she was gonna get it from me, she would have just gotten it. So a lot of times what I heard from her was that we were scarce with money.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  But then what I would see from my dad is that, well, no, we can get it. We can buy the toys. We can. And and I think especially where this showed up is that. Like my brothers and I could not have access to a lot of money or a lot of things or toys or whatever. But whenever family or friends or anybody came around, then. You know, let's get tickets for Disneyland or let's go to SeaWorld or based on our income, my parents' income, I feel like we were probably middle class. But we were trying to be in the upper middle class level.

• 55:40Ramit Sethi?

  And how did that come out? Obviously SeaWorld and things like that, but was there other things?

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Sometimes they would do like home renovations or home projects. My parents don't save up the money for it methodically. And so my dad's philosophy especially is, well, let's get it on credit. What's the monthly payment? Okay, I can do that monthly payment. And that's it. That's the extent to which they think about it.

• 56:01Ramit Sethi?

  Do you think that your spending behavior came from observing your family's relationship with money?

• 56:07Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm almost positive because and to Sana's point from earlier. Like pretty much right out of school, my salary is already higher than my dad's salary. And so in my mind, I thought. Well, I have a lot of money and I can spend a lot of this.

• 56:23Ramit Sethi?

  What'd you spend the money on?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Just like clothes, going out to eat. I used to go out with friends a lot, so we would go out and. Either go out to eat, go watch movies, whatever. And the credit card balance built because. I would just keep the balance on there and either only pay the minimum or not really pay much at all. I and I think. Before I met Sana, I did not treat debt with the level of importance and urgency. That I should have been treating it. The problems that I sort of brought into our marriage, which is that I had a lot of. High interest debt on me and. Didn't really have a concrete plan on how to solve it, or maybe didn't understand the urgency or the importance of it.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  I think we're behaviors that were modeled to me as a kid because I know that my parents didn't. I think my mom knew that it was urgent and not good to have a credit card debt, but I don't think my dad. Really cared about it or felt any kind of way about it.

• 57:25Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see yourself in the same dynamic as your dad?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Before, yes. I think I'm making a conscious effort now that I don't want to repeat. Either what my parents' dynamic was or her parents' dynamic. Because. I just, I think it brings constant stress and anxiety to the point that either.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Forces a big burden on one parent and her case that her mom had to take on a huge burden. Or in my parents' case, I feel like. My mom worries about it kind of to herself and and I don't want to repeat that kind of dynamic.

• 58:02Ramit Sethi?

  What messages about money? Do each of you bring to this relationship?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  I I guess what I would say is that so long as you have money coming in. And so long as the amount of money that's coming in is like whatever payments you have, if you can make that, then you're okay. So long as you're not at zero in the checking account.

• 58:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, that's quite interesting that the idea of as long as we can make our monthly payments, we're fine.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:28Ramit Sethi?

  That is how a lot of people see money. It's a very rudimentary way of looking at money. Okay, it's kind of like saying as long as we have a roof over our head, we're okay. It's like, that's it? That's the standard? Like literally something over our head? And we have to go deeper than that. I think that's a very accurate message you bring to this relationship. Sana, what about you?

• 58:52Speaker 01

  One memory that I have growing up, whenever we would go grocery shopping with my mom, after checkout, she would always check the receipt. And if there was ever anything wrong with it, she would go directly to whoever to get it corrected. And so she's always been like super on top of how her money is being spent. And so I still find myself price comparing. Even when we go to the grocery stores, like this, this juice is a dollar more than the other. Maybe we should get the cheaper one. But then I am trying to catch myself. It's like, I don't need to always do that.

• 59:37Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's a great example.

• 59:40Ramit Sethi?

  That's a great example for many reasons. One, you directly have modeled what you saw your mom doing, checking into everything. But to me, that example goes even deeper. Because if you look at the amount of wealth that someone accumulates over their entire lifetime, and you add up all the mistakes they ever caught on a grocery receipt, how much is it worth?

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Negligible.

• 1:00:06Ramit Sethi?

  $10, $100? It's essentially meaningless. The idea that some of the activities that some of us do with money, we do them for hours every single week for our entire lives. And if you actually understood money, you would realize it's meaningless. We would have been better off doing these two things really well and never worrying about getting overcharged for apples. And we would have been just fine. How much of that is showing up in this relationship? The idea that I need to be in control of everything?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  I know I have that feeling. That's why I feel like an orchestrator.

• 1:00:49Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Now that you mention it, what if you were not the orchestrator? Who would you be?

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  I would like to be every once in a while, somebody who can let someone else take charge and I'm just there.

• 1:01:03Ramit Sethi?

  You're just there being?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Me, being a person, not worrying.

• 1:01:10Ramit Sethi?

  You think it's possible?

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's possible.

• 1:01:13Ramit Sethi?

  I know it is. So is it something you would want to do, maybe change your role?

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would. Right now, I have like vacations to look forward to because that feels like the only time where I can completely unplug from my day to day.

• 1:01:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  And so I would like to not carry the weight every once in a while. That's more frequent than just a vacation once a year.

• 1:01:44Ramit Sethi?

  Good. I can make it happen if you want. I'm going to start by asking you to change your language. So what you just said was interesting. You said, I would like to not carry the weight. It's kind of passive when you think about it. What is another way to say that? That would involve you taking an active role in changing your relationship? Look, I'm carrying the weight. If I want to get this weight off my back, what do I have to do?

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  I have to take it off.

• 1:02:15Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. You have to be a little bit more aggressive than that.

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Have to unload.

• 1:02:20Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, throw it off. Would you be willing to do that?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  I'd want to.

• 1:02:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  If I knew how to, I would.

• 1:02:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Well, we can talk about that. There's a lot of tools and there's a lot of people you can also get help from who can help you do that.

• 1:02:38Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes there is so much poignancy and even sadness in watching these messages simply get recreated generation after generation. Now, there are some things we take away from our parents that we love and we admire, and we want to actively recreate those amazing. But this is not one of them. This idea that I am now sentenced to a life of anxiety, that I constantly have to be looking over my husband's shoulder and maintaining everything in this relationship. Because if I don't, it all falls apart. Too many people, especially women, find themselves in exactly the same situation. Not on my podcast.

• 1:03:22Ramit Sethi?

  I will not allow it, especially when you make the kind of money and have the kind of education that she does. So one of the things I want Sana to see is that there is a brighter future. There is something that will change, but it has less to do with the numbers and more to do with her looking inside and changing her relationship with others. Have the two of you talked about what your rich life is?

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Neither of us really traveled much as kids. And so there's a lot of the world that we haven't seen.

• 1:03:55Ramit Sethi?

  Cool.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  And so you want to hit a different country every year.

• 1:03:59Ramit Sethi?

  Keep going. I love this.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  I do really enjoy traveling.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  But what would feel more meaningful and fulfilling to me is that I was at a certain wealth level that I could help my parents, I could help my brothers, I could help other family members with, you know, be able to be someone that they can rely on. And it's not a burden on to me and it's not gonna hamper us in any way.

• 1:04:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I like that. Anything else?

• 1:04:25Speaker 01

  I, I do want to always support my family. Right now, I see it where I have to expand my income so that I can afford helping my family while still expanding my budget for everything else. So I still see that as a part of my vision. And then also something that we joke about right now is I would love to foster cats. Right now, it's kitten season. And so there's a ton being born, but there's not enough room for them. And so if we could bring in a couple into our home, I think it's a good way to give back.

• 1:05:03Ramit Sethi?

  I like that. I like that you've thought about it. I can tell. It seems like you've talked about it as well, the vacations, the family. How about the way that the two of you relate to money? What would it look like in a rich life?

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  We have a coffee shop and a bagel shop near where we live. And every so often, we like to, on a Sunday morning, we go walk there, spend some time there, and then we walk back.

• 1:05:27Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  And I would love to be able to do that without thinking about, okay, if we do this today, maybe we won't be able to eat out later in the week or later next week.

• 1:05:37Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you'd like to do it more often without having to as carefully think about it?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Ramit Sethi?

  I think that with the two of you making $188,000, soon to be a lot more, there will be a point where you go, anything less than 25 bucks, 200 bucks, 500 bucks, we're never going to think about it. We're just going to do it. That's our worry-free number, even if it's as low as $5. And you just don't have to think about it.

• 1:06:04Ramit Sethi?

  So you'll get there. It's no doubt.

• 1:06:07Ramit Sethi?

  Would that solve what you want?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Right now, we track everything. I would love to get to the point where we have the big pieces in place, but how it operates, we don't have to worry about that.

• 1:06:21Ramit Sethi?

  If you made three times the amount of money you made today, would you still worry about money?

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  I would like to say no, but I don't think that's true because I keep adding things to my plate. And so even though our income would grow, so would the things on my plate. And so if everything grows proportionately, my worry stays the same.

• 1:06:46Ramit Sethi?

  No. It's, it's not a math question. You could keep your expenses where they are today and double your income and you would still worry. Why?

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Right now, I feel like I have my hands in all the buckets.

• 1:06:59Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. And how do you feel about it?

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  I feel spread thin.

• 1:07:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yep. And I would say bad. You don't feel good about money. I don't see any joy, even though you make a lot of money.

• 1:07:12Ramit Sethi?

  You have a lot of money invested. You know it's going to turn into a whole bunch of money. No joy. We can't get to the rich life. You, you guys can paper it over with vacations. But how many people do you know in America who are unhappy a lot? And then they take one vacation a year and they're like, why, how come I'm not happy? Disneyland didn't make me happy? Do you want to do that?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:07:35Ramit Sethi?

  It sucks. It's play-acting the American dream. The idea that let's overburden ourselves with all these expenses. Let's never talk about money, except to worry about it and fight about it. And then, oops, we'll take a vacation. Surely that will solve everything. And it doesn't. And then we wonder, why are we so unhappy? Are we going to settle for this?

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:08:00Ramit Sethi?

  No, there's got to be more to it.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  I know that we make. A very healthy income.

• 1:08:05Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  I want to feel good about that income without all the caveats attached to it.

• 1:08:14Ramit Sethi?

  Nice.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Arham and I talk about like, it'd be so fun if we joined a league together and learned a new sport together. But it always keeps getting delayed.

• 1:08:25Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Because it feels like I have to take care of everything else first before I can trade myself to that.

• 1:08:32Ramit Sethi?

  Sorry, what's, what am I doing with my body right now? What am I doing with that?

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  I should throw it off.

• 1:08:39Ramit Sethi?

  So tell me, what's one thing you want to throw off?

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  I want to create a little bit more unstructured time where Arham and I have a weekly set time of we're gonna both do something.

• 1:08:51Ramit Sethi?

  What's something you do right now that you would be willing to not do anymore?

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  I would love to not have to spend one day a week cleaning our apartment.

• 1:09:03Ramit Sethi?

  That's, that's it? That's the easiest thing? Okay, love it. How can you make that happen?

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  We would love to hire someone to help.

• 1:09:13Ramit Sethi?

  That's one option. What else?

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  I find it a little interesting. I think that she's saying that she wants more unstructured time because when we've talked, last year was very unstable, very chaotic. And I think that the reason we're doing better now is because our weeks are so structured. But now I'm hearing what Sana is saying that maybe there can be a little bit more leeway, more unstructured.

• 1:09:37Ramit Sethi?

  Is that correct?

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  That's what I'm wondering.

• 1:09:39Ramit Sethi?

  Talk to each other. I'll just listen.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  I mean, our walks are definitely one of those things. I would just like to add to our list of activities that we do together.

• 1:09:50Ramit Sethi?

  Can I ask a que- I love this. I think you should.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think that you two are having a discussion about two hours a week for a couple with no children that makes almost $200,000 a year?

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  The practical answer, I think, for one is that we both work full time. She goes to the office and she's also in grad school right now. So a lot of her days really are taken up in work and then school on the weekends. And then we see each other's families and then before we know it, the next week starts right there. And so even talking about two hours of unstructured time feels like we have to carve it out of the week because it's, it doesn't seem to freely be there. You agree?

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Yes. And then also, there is a cost of joining the league. It's not that much. It's a couple hundred. But it's just that delayment of gratification where it's like, let's pay off this debt and then we can join the league. Versus, I could probably just do it next month.

• 1:10:55Ramit Sethi?

  Does it feel good sometimes to restrict yourself?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yes, because then it feels like the reward is bigger at the end. As a student, there's always more that you can do and you can always be better at what you're doing. So if I put in an extra three, four hours into studying, I can be more prepared and then feel like it's easier when I walk into the task.

• 1:11:21Ramit Sethi?

  Are you seeing the connection with why I'm bringing this up?

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Yes, because I do it with my finances as well. Like, I see the end goal and then I try to put all the work for it, forward thinking. And so I unload myself now rather than.

• 1:11:37Ramit Sethi?

  It's not about your money. It's about your relationship.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:11:41Ramit Sethi?

  You say that you want time together, but when I ask, why are we discussing two hours a week for a couple making multiple six figures with no kids? And there's a very set of logical reasons. We have family, we have work, we have grad school, we have all these things. But ultimately, it's the same principle you've been applying since you were a little kid. I need to work. There's more I can do. I need to do this and then this and then this. And finally, I will be in the place that I can do it. The same thing is coming up over and over and over again. I don't know that you see it.

• 1:12:22Ramit Sethi?

  So just to put it very bluntly, you two are gonna make a lot more money. The debt's gonna get paid off. No doubt about that. And you're gonna recreate some of the exact same dynamics that you saw your parents doing. Not just with money, but a lack of connection, a lack of a vision. Your worldview right now is so deeply embedded in the idea that you need to be in control of everything and that you need to do A, B, C, D all sequentially.

• 1:12:51Ramit Sethi?

  That you'll do that until the day you die. And guess who will observe that? Your kids. And then they'll just do the exact same thing. What is the rich life? You told me vacations, you told me the bagel shop. What is it with the two of you?

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  I guess I, I would love to do more things together without a checklist running in the, in the back of our head. Like, you know, I, I feel like now the time that we spend together, it's, it's stuff like grocery shopping or maybe it is going to see our families or it's to serve some broader purpose. Yeah, it's functional.

• 1:13:24Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Okay, so let's fix it right now. If you both claim you want to have more unstructured, unfunctional time, make it happen for this coming week. What would you do?

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Today, we both took the day off, so we're planning on having lunch together and walking around the area.

• 1:13:43Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Next week.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  And then we were talking about joining a bocci ball league.

• 1:13:49Ramit Sethi?

  Great.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  I was debating it, but I'm leaning closer and closer to just getting us those seats.

• 1:13:56Ramit Sethi?

  And when you say you were debating it, in your head, you were saying time, money, anything else?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  It was those two.

• 1:14:03Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  And then also, we have my cousin and his brother come over on Thursdays and the league that I'm looking at is on Thursdays.

• 1:14:11Ramit Sethi?

  So what are you gonna do?

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  I was gonna convince them to join. They might or might not, but I still want us to do it.

• 1:14:19Ramit Sethi?

  Great, great. I love that. The two of you come first and if they want to join, great. And if not?

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  Push off.

• 1:14:26Ramit Sethi?

  Just say, hey, we've decided like, we're gonna be doing this, so Thursday's not gonna work anymore. It's totally okay. What else?

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  I, I love watching movies. I would love to be able to some weeknights during the week. Maybe we go watch a movie and, and it doesn't have to be a weekend. It could be like a Tuesday night.

• 1:14:46Ramit Sethi?

  Could you do it?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  I, I want to say yes, but I, I still come back to the thing of because she's in grad school and we both work long hours. I, I guess the question that I have for you then is, how, how do we reconcile this where for someone like Sana who is so organized and wants to control different factors of their life? And I know that I'm trying to control it because I don't want to go back to how last year was. How do I put in my head that maybe life could be better, kind of loosening the rope?

• 1:15:17Ramit Sethi?

  It's a good question. Life is better now. I, I think you would both agree. You're, you have a debt payoff plan. You're more in control of the money. I think that's really good. What I'm hearing that you've both expressed in different ways, especially you, Sana, is I want to have a little bit more fun.

• 1:15:39Ramit Sethi?

  I want to be more connected with each other. And when I'm asking you like, what would that look like? It's actually very simple stuff. It's playing a sport once a week. It's seeing a movie maybe once a month. So the way I would do it is first I would just say, can I afford it? Okay. And I think with your numbers, even being in debt, you could afford a movie and a sports league. So do we all agree on that?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. The second thing is I would say time-wise. When does it work? Look, sometimes grad school is gonna make it so that she has to work five days a week in the evenings. Fine. But I might ask her, hey, um, I'd like for us to go and spend some time together. I'm thinking Tuesday or the second Thursday of the month. How does it look for you? Plan ahead, put the time on the calendar. It's still structured. But you are driving that one and she can just be. And then you can do the same vice versa. That's how you do it. And if you need to change it at the last minute, change it. But over time, I think that you will be able to make these date nights or whatever you want to call them, happen regularly.

• 1:16:52Ramit Sethi?

  What I'm trying to get you to do is to maybe realize that the point of life is not to be dialed in on every single thing all the time until the day you die. That sucks. That's actually meaningless. It's just you sitting there exerting control on what's the next problem in life. You actually do all this stuff so that you can live a rich life. And if that means something as simple as walking to a bagel shop or seeing a movie, great, then you should do that. Can we look at the debt payoff plan? So, Arham, I understand that you have a debt payoff plan. I'm gonna put it on screen here. It's very impressive. This is a great debt payoff plan. So when you look at this, what does it tell you?

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  I feel like I look at this and I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

• 1:17:38Ramit Sethi?

  When is the light?

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  I feel like it's at the end of 2028, once the car loan is paid off. If we can just get to the end of 2028, because I'm also, once I pay off that first consolidation, then I plan on paying off the other one more aggressively. So that payoff date should be a little bit sooner.

• 1:17:55Ramit Sethi?

  So according to this, you're, you're gonna pay off one of your loans by the end of 2026. And the longest loan is 2043. But if you take the amount that you're paying towards the consolidated first loan and then you just roll it into the next one and the next one and the next one, all of these are paid off by roughly 2030. Did you know that?

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, 2030?

• 1:18:20Ramit Sethi?

  What's that reaction?

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  In my mind, I thought it would be 2035 for this.

• 1:18:25Ramit Sethi?

  That's faster than that.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm a little shocked, I'm not gonna lie.

• 1:18:29Ramit Sethi?

  Did you know that, Sana?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  No, we only planned it until everything but the student loans is done.

• 1:18:37Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, it's true. It will be paid off faster than you think. And even if it's 2035, what do you care? You're in your 30s at that point. Still quite young. I'm like, what's happening right now? Because to me, I'm feeling joy. And the reaction I'm seeing from you is concrete. It looks like I'm looking at concrete right now. What's happening?

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  I guess it's not really gonna hit me until it's done.

• 1:19:03Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, so we have to wait another 10 years to feel it?

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Well, no, I see this like, you know, we're a sports team working towards a championship and our championship is, this is gonna be paid off.

• 1:19:14Ramit Sethi?

  But you guys are not a sports team. You're husband and wife. It's different. I like goals. I like winning, yes, but I don't want to only win with my wife. I want to be connected to my wife. I want to feel intimate. I want to feel joy. I even want to feel sadness. I want to feel. My wife is not my business partner.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  We do laugh together. We're not, we're not only strictly business all the time.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  I think just when it comes to money, we end up turning into like these emotionless.

• 1:19:53Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, keep going.

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  And like regimented.

• 1:19:59Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  But outside of this spreadsheet, we do have fun together.

• 1:20:04Ramit Sethi?

  What if money could also be fun?

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:07Ramit Sethi?

  What would it look like if it were?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  We can say yes to things without thinking twice about it.

• 1:20:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what else?

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  The early part of our marriage, we were prioritizing fun and going out to eat and, you know, having a fun time with each other. But then maybe the message I took away is that the low point that we were at is because I prioritize that rather than this. I would say so, but, but maybe not in the way that I think it should be.

• 1:20:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so let me ask you this. You wanted to come here and speak to me. Why?

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  I, I don't think this is the way that we should be.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  I think this is fine for us to do till maybe, let's say, 2028. But I don't know if we should be doing this when we're like 35 years old and, and on.

• 1:20:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  But I wanted to learn from you, how, how can we be prepared now to be able to live that way later on?

• 1:20:59Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  I'd say I wanted to come on here to feel less stressed when it comes to money. I think the joy that we feel when we look at this is like before we were this much under and now we're this much under as in we're climbing out of the hole. But I think the true joy doesn't come from digging yourself out. It's to what you can unlock yourself to do with it.

• 1:21:29Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. True joy is not linear. True joy, in my experience, is not simply we did this and we got here, although that is great. It's a great sense of accomplishment of what you've been able to do individually and together. It's huge, huge. Having this plan is amazing. I rarely see a plan like this. What I am gently suggesting to you is that

• 1:21:57Ramit Sethi?

  you have created a life where everything must be functional to earn its way. We have to check this box. We have to achieve ROI on this. We have to have a plan that is paid off in this amount of time. All those things are good, but you didn't leave time for just being, just enjoying. And actually, you're spending so much time on things like this when it comes to money that there's no time left for a rich life, for just enjoying each other. What I'm trying to get you to see is that your entire worldview of your relationship with money is purely functional.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know our husband brings up every once in a while, it's like, I know we're doing better, but like, do you feel like our life is too structured? And our answer has always been like, we have to do it this way now. And then once we get to the light at the end of the tunnel, we can do more.

• 1:22:57Ramit Sethi?

  There's no light.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  But we could do, we could integrate pieces of that joy now.

• 1:23:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, yes, exactly. You get it. So what do you want to do? The debt payoff plan is solid. You're gonna be paid off in five years. Hell, make it 10, according to your own calculations. Either way, you're in your 30s.

• 1:23:21Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing. So it's done. It just needs time. What else? You have debt as well, right? You, you made a career change. How much is your debt?

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  In total, by the time I'm done with this program, it's gonna be close to 100K.

• 1:23:36Ramit Sethi?

  Where's the debt payoff plan?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  It's to the right of it.

• 1:23:39Ramit Sethi?

  Let's look. Oh my God, another payoff plan. Okay.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  I don't have dates on this because I'm still taking out those loans.

• 1:23:48Ramit Sethi?

  But we can estimate.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. So my salary is where it's at right now. Once I finish this program, I can easily increase it by 40, 50,000.

• 1:23:58Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Um, and so I want to use a part of that increase to day, to pay off the debt faster.

• 1:24:06Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fine.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Ramit Sethi?

  So do you feel confident that with the salary increase you're gonna get, that you can have an effective debt payoff plan and pay off your debt in, let's say, 10 years?

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  I know I can do it in 10. I want to do it faster.

• 1:24:21Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Because I've seen my parents struggle with the debt and I want to not struggle with debt as early as possible.

• 1:24:31Ramit Sethi?

  Are you struggling right now with money?

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  I would say yes. I struggle to spend outside of responsibility.

• 1:24:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. And so when you say, I want to pay my debt off as quickly as possible, do you see how that contributes to you not having a healthy relationship with money? How so?

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Because I limit myself. Because my salary is powerful enough where I could do a lot more with it than I can. But then I try to plan out towards all the buckets. But when it comes to paying out this, off this new debt, it doesn't have to be as rapid as three years. Even if I could do it, it's okay if I spend a little more on interest.

• 1:25:19Ramit Sethi?

  What would you spend the money on anyway?

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Right now, we can only travel once a year. I talk about, I would love to go multiple times a year.

• 1:25:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Internationally. I'd love to travel with family too and bring them with me.

• 1:25:33Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. I love that. Anything else?

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  I'd want us to

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  increase more of what we already do together without feeling the guilt. And so.

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  I, I would love to.

• 1:25:49Ramit Sethi?

  Have you all never heard me say this phrase? The way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount in your bank account. Do you notice how you're interchangeably mixing those things? When I make more money, I'd love to not feel guilty. How?

• 1:26:04Ramit Sethi?

  How would you not feel guilty about money?

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  I have to rewire my brain so that it's okay if it costs me more, if I take a little bit longer to pay it off.

• 1:26:16Ramit Sethi?

  Yes.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  If I can

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  use more of my income now for things that I want to do now.

• 1:26:24Ramit Sethi?

  Like?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Like the sports league and I, I wanted to take arts, art classes.

• 1:26:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Do you see why I'm emphasizing the importance of finding joy with money now? It's a skill. Right now, you, you have no connection to feeling joy.

• 1:26:48Ramit Sethi?

  And even when we talk about what would you do with the money? It's difficult for you to, to think about spending because you see spending as losing. If I'm spending, I'm losing because that money could be going towards filling up some arbitrary bucket. It does take rewiring. How would you rewire your brain?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  By just booking those classes.

• 1:27:11Ramit Sethi?

  Yes to that. What else? You see a therapist?

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I have been on and off.

• 1:27:17Ramit Sethi?

  Good. Okay, so maybe a more regular therapist. Good. What else?

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  We, we really love our apartment, so if we like could always light a candle without worrying about, like, do we have enough candles in reserve?

• 1:27:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yo, is that true? Do you worry about that?

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  I do not worry about candles.

• 1:27:37Ramit Sethi?

  She goes, even that's crazy for me. I know it's kind of surprising that I might tell somebody who has like 100K of debt and their husband has all this credit card debt. Hey, why are you paying off all this debt so fast? It's very counterintuitive. But I want to emphasize that money is a small but important part of a rich life. They could get their numbers 100% textbook perfect and they would not be living a rich life. Because they're not connected. She feels intense anxiety over almost every part of her life. That's not a healthy relationship.

• 1:28:20Ramit Sethi?

  They have a professor-student relationship with finances. That's not healthy either. Sometimes there is value in saying, hey, what are we prioritizing? And what's it costing us if we're putting $3,000 a month towards debt? But we can't eat out and have a bagel? Then what kind of life have we created for ourselves? Now, I get that it's easier for the vast majority of people to simply be told, do this. Pay everything off on your debt and don't ever see the inside of a restaurant. Yeah, that's easy and it's simple. But I'm not here to just give you an easy and simple answer. I want you thinking for yourself. What kind of rich life am I creating if I always feel bad about money?

• 1:29:04Ramit Sethi?

  Because trust me, when you're debt free, you're not gonna magically feel good. So the most important thing that I am telling this couple is that you cannot wait to feel good about money. It starts today. It is a practice that you work on over and over. And yes, in addition to that, you make sure that your numbers are dialed in. Both of those things can be true. In fact, both of them must be true to live a rich life. I noticed on your CS That it was clearly delineated whose money is whose? And that you mentioned you don't have combined finances. What do you think about that?

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  In my head, I've delayed this until Arham's debt is paid off.

• 1:29:50Ramit Sethi?

  I see. So when his debt is paid off, then it means what to you?

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  That Arham has made those changes and they're permanent.

• 1:29:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  That right now is relatively new and so it's a new habit. And it's like the novelty of it. Versus when it's actually paid off, it's like, no, this is just who he is now.

• 1:30:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And you agree?

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's, that would be like graduating to a new step in our relationship. And I feel that I have to earn that graduation to that next step.

• 1:30:24Ramit Sethi?

  I see. Is there an agreement that once your debt is paid off, that the two of you combine your finances?

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess not, not so specifically like that.

• 1:30:34Ramit Sethi?

  You want to do it now?

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:37Ramit Sethi?

  I'll listen, but I'd love for you to actually be explicit with each other.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  I guess I would ask, is there, are there certain debts that you want to see paid off? Before we combine our finances or is it just?

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  It would just be the credit card.

• 1:30:53Speaker 02

  Credit card one?

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is two years.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Consolidation ones.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  About two years.

• 1:30:58Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want to combine your money?

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  Right now, I feel like we are a team, but joining our finances would really solidify that home.

• 1:31:09Ramit Sethi?

  Why?

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Because right now, even though we work together, it is still his and hers.

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I would like that more as a symbolic gesture that I regained that trust from her and that would be reflected by way of us combining accounts together.

• 1:31:30Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see therapists?

• 1:31:35Speaker 02

  I used to, but not currently.

• 1:31:37Ramit Sethi?

  And a couples therapist, have you ever done it together?

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  We've talked about it, but then we didn't go.

• 1:31:42Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. Well, first, I think you should see a couples therapist. I think it would be great and individual as needed. But you mentioned that you grew up

• 1:31:54Ramit Sethi?

  without a lot of money and that you then went to this elite school and you kind of saw all these different ways that people with money behave. You two now make a lot of money. You make $200,000 a year in your twenties. You're not behaving like a couple that does. You're agonizing over finding two hours a week. You're debating over, you know, this, the sports bocce ball registration. But most importantly, debating over couples therapy? When there are clearly issues to be discussed? Who cares? Find the money. You have it. You have plenty of money. There's nothing more important in your marriage than the two of you.

• 1:32:39Ramit Sethi?

  How's that strike you?

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  I think one of the things that I have sort of realized as we've been talking is that

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  something that it sounds like Sana is saying that she would like is a little more whimsy, I guess, day to day. And I feel like I tried to incorporate that last year, but then the situation got really bad. And to me, what I internalize is that what she really prioritizes is security and stability, which is why I think now everything is like bulletproof. And to me, I sort of prioritize that as saying, okay, this is now the number one thing that's going to make sure that she's okay is that we're secure, we're stable, things are on a schedule, things are like routine. She doesn't have to worry about what's going to happen the next day.

• 1:33:24Ramit Sethi?

  I think that you've made a fundamental miscalculation. It's a well-intentioned one, but it's a miscalculation. You were irresponsible with your spending. You were not transparent with her. That was inexcusable. She told you very directly, look, either fix this or there is not going to be a relationship. I think that was very courageous and I think that you responded to that. You were like, holy, I didn't realize this. I'm going to fix this. So you made a debt payoff plan. You told yourself she prioritizes safety and security. But do you realize that it all started with you believing I won't tell her about this credit card debt? Because then she'll worry?

• 1:34:08Ramit Sethi?

  You've been trying to make her not worry for years. Does it work? Is she worried?

• 1:34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think she still is worried.

• 1:34:17Ramit Sethi?

  Correct?

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Yes. I would say that I know I've spent pretty much my whole adulthood prioritizing other people over myself. But my priority should be our relationship. And so if I don't question supporting my family, why am I questioning whether or not we can afford to go do things together?

• 1:34:42Ramit Sethi?

  Should we talk about that?

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:44Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me.

• 1:34:45Speaker 01

  I think, I think you are right. And it is a mindset shift to see myself first and not see it as

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  a selfish act. I know you would benefit from couples therapy.

• 1:35:04Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think you would get out of it?

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  Connection to Arham, which is the primary goal.

• 1:35:08Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. Good. Maybe an understanding of each other. Maybe an understanding of this dynamic that you've created. The one where you worry about others before yourself. Arham responds to that worry. What does he do? He, he makes a plan. He follows the plan. He goes, if I, if I plan this plan even more than I planned it, then maybe she'll stop worrying. That doesn't work. So he doubles down on the plan. And now you've both created this dynamic where you're living for some day, as you put it, with a light at the end of the tunnel. The light's not coming. You'll be debt free. There's no doubt about that. But you will still both worry. Each of you chasing this feeling.

• 1:35:54Ramit Sethi?

  But because you don't talk about feelings, because you don't know how, you didn't see that your parents doing it, having a healthy dynamic, then the only thing you both do is double down on the plan. It's functional. Your money will grow.

• 1:36:13Ramit Sethi?

  But where's the feeling in it? That's what couples therapy can get you.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  I know you're right. I know what you're saying is true.

• 1:36:24Speaker 01

  And I know Arham is my priority. And I have to execute on that rather than just thinking about it.

• 1:36:31Ramit Sethi?

  What might you be willing to move on from? As agreements you've made in the past?

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  I think I can still do everything that I first set out to do. It's just rather than seeing everything as equal, I put Arham first. And our time together comes first before I let the worry consume me with other things.

• 1:36:59Ramit Sethi?

  You'll see your family quite frequently. That's a lot of time. Would you be willing to reduce the amount of time you see your family?

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  We've talked about this a lot.

• 1:37:08Ramit Sethi?

  I'm less interested in talking about it.

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:11Ramit Sethi?

  I want action.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the way that it has worked in the past is that other people fill in our calendar and then we find time based on what's left. But I do want to shift to where we fill our time together first and then let other people fill it in second.

• 1:37:32Ramit Sethi?

  That's how you send the signal to each other that you are the most important thing. We, this unit is the most important thing. Everybody else, we love them.

• 1:37:43Ramit Sethi?

  But they come second. So how would you do that?

• 1:37:46Speaker 02

  If we look at our calendar, we say, okay, you know, the next four Saturdays, we're going to plan a date. And then if someone else asks, let's do something on Saturday, we say, oh, no, we can't because we have our date planned great for Saturday.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know what's happened in the past. We'll have a plan, but then our plans are flexible. But other people plan an event on Saturday. And so it's like, well, what if we moved our day to another day? And then we go to this commitment. And I've been pushing back on like, well, if we keep following other people's schedules, then that leaves very little time for us.

• 1:38:27Ramit Sethi?

  This is really common topic for like Asian and South Asian people and their relationship together versus their extended family. This is like point number one. It's like in every soap opera. You know what I mean? And it's going to be hard the first few times. And yet it is also necessary. Okay. And what about the money that you're giving to your parents?

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  I don't want to reduce it, but I think instead of like right now, I'm doing a split between what actively comes out of our paycheck, my paycheck versus my savings. I think it's okay if I just rely on the savings for a little bit to create that extra space for us to spend more time together.

• 1:39:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. We talked about the trust before. Like it seems like you're in the process of earning back Sana's trust and that's good. I agree with that. I just, I want to know about the joint.

• 1:39:24Ramit Sethi?

  The joint combination. In my opinion, married couples should have joint finances. I do obviously leave room for individual accounts. I think if you have incurred a bunch of debt, then it can make sense for that person to disproportionately pay for that, all of that. I think if the plan is that you've been explicit, hey, once the credit card is paid off, we should combine our finances. Great. That's a couple of years away. Fine. As long as you both know it and you agree to it. Another option is a post-nup. A post-nup would be something that you may want to consider, which is, hey, even though we're already married, we should make a legal agreement

• 1:40:07Ramit Sethi?

  on what kinds of debt we came into this relationship with. And that way, worst case scenario, we both know exactly. What happens and that then frees us up to be unified together. I'm not asking you make a decision today, but I am asking you to think about what would a future look like that is united? Right now, it's not.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  A way that we could be united, for example, as we open a joint savings account for vacation and we call it like, okay, this is our trip to Switzerland.

• 1:40:39Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want to do it?

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that could happen today.

• 1:40:43Ramit Sethi?

  Do you want to do it?

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  I only want to do it if she's okay with it because the, the reason why is because I know that I broke that trust before and I don't want to mishandle it.

• 1:40:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so don't. So don't mishandle it. I don't think you are seeing the dynamic here. You're so eager to please Sana by deferring to her that you're simply putting more work on her. When was the last time you said to her, here's what I want to do with money in our relationship? When was the last time you said something like that?

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  I, I feel like I say it most weekends, like, hey, we can, like, maybe we can go to the bakery around us and we, you know, maybe we get some pastries from there.

• 1:41:28Ramit Sethi?

  Are you telling her or asking her?

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  I feel like usually I'm asking.

• 1:41:32Ramit Sethi?

  You are. When you said earlier, you would like your dynamic to be co C-level execs, right? In a, in a business, they don't ask their colleague for their thoughts on every last decision. They have a vision and they have a rationale and they propose things. And sometimes they say like, look, this is what I think we should do, or this is what we're going to do. But right now you don't feel you can do that because what?

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  It, it feels like the dynamic that's been established is that she has final say. And so I, I don't, I guess maybe I don't feel like I've earned final say.

• 1:42:14Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe five more years of penance.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:42:18Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe 10.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  I don't think of myself as the only one who has final say. I don't want you to feel that way.

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  But that's what it feels like. And I guess the reason maybe that I've been playing into it more is because it feels like it's been working. Maybe, maybe she feels better, but now I'm realizing that she's still worried about it. So maybe it's not working quite as well.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  I think it would be nice to have things just planned for and all I have to do is show up.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe this is what couples therapy would be helpful for because I feel that in the past, and even to this day, when I do try to take the lead on planning things or suggesting things, then, then you come in and take control and then it sort of morphs into your vision.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  And I don't want to repeatedly push back, so it's easier for the dynamic overall. If, if I start with a suggestion, you morph it to your vision and then, and then we go from there.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  I add my opinion because you phrase it like a suggestion.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  But it is extra work on me to think about it. I, I would enjoy if you just told me what to do every once in a while.

• 1:43:35Ramit Sethi?

  You want to practice right now?

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:38Ramit Sethi?

  Let's pick something low stakes. Got something in mind?

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  There are some movies coming out in the summer that I would like to watch. I will decide on the movie. I'll pick out the seats and what screen we're going to watch it on. We will eat a dinner before then and I'll book the reservation. I'll find the reservation, make sure it's appropriate to our dietary limits. Does Saturday work or does Friday work?

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  I would like that.

• 1:44:07Ramit Sethi?

  That was good. Okay, what just happened there?

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  I took action. I had the whole plan laid out already from start to finish.

• 1:44:15Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  And I just, all that I asked her essentially was what day works for you to do that?

• 1:44:20Ramit Sethi?

  That was my favorite part. Does Friday work or Saturday? I love that. And what did you feel?

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  It feels nice to not plan something.

• 1:44:29Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  It feels nice to spend time with someone that I care about and they've got all the logistics figured out.

• 1:44:39Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's partnership. That's really cool. Okay, Aram, you mentioned earlier at the beginning today that you're worried about falling back into old financial habits. Are you worried about that? Because to me, it doesn't seem like you're at any risk of that.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  Maybe 5% worried, not, not really that worried.

• 1:44:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so keep an eye on it. But in my opinion, from talking to you and from talking to both of you, it doesn't seem like a huge risk. If anything, you have become so structured. To me, the opportunity here is not to spend the next 25 years playing defense, but rather to observe what's actually going on and go, holy, I'm so deep in the spreadsheet. There's other things to spend more time on that are more worthy of your time. I think that's important for you to know. You should be spending time on the things that are important and you already did a nice job with the debt payoff plan. Now that it's in effect, it's happening, it's going automatically. It should not be taking up all kinds of energy from you.

• 1:45:43Ramit Sethi?

  Take that energy and redirect it to what's more important here. Sana, what, would it feel like for you to put yourself and your relationship first?

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  I will start saying yes to what I want now as opposed to pushing it off another month, two months, a year plus. It's okay if I take away from the other buckets if I feel myself first. Because a, a lesson that I'm still learning is that if I crush myself, then I'd have nothing left.

• 1:46:17Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  But if I take care of myself first, what I'm able to give will be more joyful.

• 1:46:26Ramit Sethi?

  Yes. I love that you use that word joyful. That to me is the theme of what you should both be seeking. The default answer in your life has always been get to the next step as quickly as possible. That is your invisible script. Hurry up, graduate, hurry up, get an A+, hurry up, hurry up, hurry up.

• 1:46:50Ramit Sethi?

  And you will hurry yourself right into the grave. As for the two of you, it actually is an incredible testament that after this financial betrayal of not sharing this credit card debt, that you can even talk about joy. But you can. You have a debt payoff plan. You have two people who both want to be better. So it's finding joy in daily life, changing the way that you talk to each other, getting some help because it's not, doesn't come natural, especially after you probably didn't see your parents doing this. And start thinking of yourselves not as, you know, what's the world going to do to us? But like, oh my God, we're actually really powerful.

• 1:47:30Ramit Sethi?

  Sure, we have some debt to pay off, but we're a young couple that is making a lot of money and is going to make more. So what do we want to get out of this? What do we get? What surprised you about our conversation today?

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  The thing that was most surprising, the connection you made of the original sin was because I didn't want to worry her more. And actually me trying to repair that is also worrying her more. And I guess I didn't put that connection together that my response was, I think you said a fundamental miscalculation. I didn't even think of it that way. So that was the biggest surprise.

• 1:48:10Ramit Sethi?

  Good.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  I think in the first 10 minutes, you told us that our spreadsheet was not joyful. I didn't think it was that apparent. I know that we were, have been regimented, but I thought that's just the way it has to be. But I don't have to push it until later. I can have that now.

• 1:48:30Ramit Sethi?

  That's just the way it has to be. What a powerful theme that you've been operating under for so long. That's just the way it has to be. Who says? Everybody tells me I have to buy a house. I've had to do this. I have to do that. That's just the way it has to be. And I go, nope, I'm not taking your burden on me. I create my own rich life. And importantly, my wife and I do it together. So we decide what has to be, but nobody else gets to put it on us. Same for you two, not even family.

• 1:49:13Ramit Sethi?

  While you can respect them and love them, but you two decide. What you keep joyfully and what's not for you. I am hopeful that this couple will make changes. Let me tell you what I know for a fact is going to happen. I know that their numbers are going to continue being dialed in. The debt's going to be paid off. I have no concern about that at all. What I am less sure about is can they completely change their relationship to money? And that is decades of really hard work. It is seeing a couples therapist, probably individual therapist.

• 1:49:58Ramit Sethi?

  It is totally changing the dynamics of how they make decisions about things as simple as joining a bocce ball league. It's everything and everywhere. Can they do it? Of course, they're both really smart, both really capable. Will they do it? I hope so, because I want them to feel joy, not just on vacation, but day to day. And I want them to change the patterns that they have seen and observed and inherited from their parents. Because if they choose to have children one day, I don't want their children to be burdened with this idea of being a martyr or hiding debt from your partner because you don't want to worry them. No, I want them to be in it as partners are. So that is my hope for them.

• 1:50:43Ramit Sethi?

  Can they do it? Yeah. Is it going to be hard? Yeah. But all valuable things are. And now let's check out their follow ups.

• 1:50:51Speaker 01

  Hi, Ramit and team. It's been about a week since we met you. I think walking in last week, I thought that the, our conversation was going to be about why our fixed costs are so high and what we can do to reduce it. And so I was very surprised to see a complete 180 from that where the biggest takeaway was that I should actually be loosening up more and spending more on myself now. I've always seen myself as a protector and an orchestrator where I need to have my hands in everything just so I can take care of not only myself, but also everyone around me.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  And so I never considered that I might have taken my being responsible to an extreme where I've overplanned and stressed myself out more than I needed to be. And I especially didn't consider that I might have taken our home to that extreme as well. And so I've been very intentional this past week about loosening up and saying yes to things that I would enjoy right now as opposed to things that I should be doing. And so some examples of that would be that we've been having more spontaneous walks

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  and we've gone for dessert and we've played sports and it's been really nice to decompress that way.

• 1:52:21Speaker 01

  And I'm looking forward to making more changes to help myself carry less of a load.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  Thank you for granting us the time to do our session with you. The biggest takeaway for me is that we were not spending our life or spending our time in the way that we should be for two people in our twenties with no kids and the kind of income that we make. It was really eye opening for me to hear from another outside source that we really do not have to be so involved in the nitty gritty details of life or finances to the point that it's detrimental to our relationship and to our time together. It was, it was really important, I think, for me to hear that the time that we spend

• 1:53:12Speaker 02

  together as husband and wife should be joyous and heartfelt and not, you know, really detailed and like logistically good, but it's all very robotic and mechanic. I, I don't like thinking that that's how our time was, but I think it's pretty clear that that's how our time has been. And in effort to turn that around, I've been taking initiative to plan more dates together, to prioritize our days together and to have a lot of unstructured fun time. And we plan on thinking less about how much something costs and thinking more about, is this something reasonably that we can do and would we enjoy doing it?

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  And the other thing that I have made a conscious effort to do is to tailor my language so that it's not asking Sana a question, which puts the burden on her. It's more that I will plan myself and I bring Sana along with me and we have fun together that way. The biggest takeaway for me is that I want our money to be something that makes our life meaningful and fulfilling, rather than just it be something that I accomplish and check off. So I'm really appreciative to remain in the team and we look forward to implementing these changes in our life together. It's been about six weeks since our podcast session.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  For me, I think the biggest thing that has stuck with me is to have a bias for action. So I have been trying to be much more mindful about being active, not just in my language, but also in my actions.

• 1:54:55Speaker 02

  And not only being active just in how I live my life, but for the both of us together.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  And for me, the coming out of the coaching call, the first week was very heavy. I've always seen myself as the responsible one, but I never considered and through Ramit's coaching, I realized that maybe I've taken being responsible to an unhealthy extreme. And so the biggest skill that I want to work on is spending on myself. And so, and teaching myself the lesson that it is possible for me to spend on things that I enjoy while also taking care of everything that needs to get taken care of. And so with that in mind, we have opened up our very first joint account together. This account is strictly for fun things.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  And so we're putting aside $400 a month before anything else so that we can prioritize our time together and not just time, but also quality time specifically.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  In addition to that, one of the other big concrete changes we've made is that we've been in couples therapy together. So we've done a few sessions already and I think it's been really helpful as far as putting language towards, putting language to dynamics and maybe some of the conversations that we didn't know how to navigate with each other. So it's been really helpful towards that. And finally, the biggest thing I think that we've changed about our dynamic is that we've been much more intentional in our quality time together. So not just setting aside a day on the weekend for the two of us to be together, but also

• 1:56:40Speaker 02

  most days out of the week, we've been trying to carve out time in the evening where we can have quality time with each other and it's not burdened by responsibilities or anything else. It's just time for us to enjoy together and I think we've noticed a really big positive change in our relationship.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Yep. And I know going into the coaching session, I thought that the entire conversation would be about our debt because that there's, that debt scares me. But going through the whole call, we realized and I know deep down that we are very competent and confident in our skills and our debt will get taken care of. And so there's no need to overthink or overcomplicate it. We are already on a good plan and we're going to be debt free very soon. And so our biggest thing to work on is not clearing the debt, but learning how to use our money intentionally and in a way that's meaningful to us. So thank you for pushing us outside of our boundaries.

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  We are really excited about what's ahead of us and we'll keep in touch.

• 1:57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you all.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 1:57:50Ramit Sethi?

  If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com/100k to sign up.