Cosmic Queries – Pot Luck with Dr. Staci Gruber

Are we “wired for weed”? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly weed out the myth from the science behind marijuana with neuroscientist at Harvard Medical School and director of the MIND Program, Dr. Staci Gruber.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk Sports Edition. I got my reliable co-host Chuck Nice. Chuck?

• 0:20Chuck Nice?

  What's happening, Neil?

• 0:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right. Chuck is a professional stand-up comedian and actor and a sports enthusiast, though he's never actually done sports in his life.

• 0:30Chuck Nice?

  Hence the enthusiasm.

• 0:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, rather than participant.

• 0:35Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 0:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes. But of course, my other co-host has been a professional athlete and still announces soccer professionally. Ah, did I get that correct, Gary O'Reilly?

• 0:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, you did, sir.

• 0:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And who did you play for in the UK?

• 0:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Um, okay, Tottenham Hotspur, if you're familiar with them, Crystal Palace, and Brighton and Hove Albion, which is a bit more of a mouthful.

• 1:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You couldn't hold down a job with one team?

• 1:04Gary O'Reilly?

  I was so good, they got rid of me at least three times.

• 1:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So either they all wanted you or they all didn't want you. You can leave that one a mystery.

• 1:13Gary O'Reilly?

  Something like that, yeah. I had 14 years of being sacked by my employees.

• 1:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Very good. Well, Gary, last year, we did a show on sort of marijuana and some controversies with it related to sports. And it looks like there's more to go on that subject. So what did you concoct for today?

• 1:40Gary O'Reilly?

  Well, last year, when we got in a discussion with Dr. Stacy Gruber, our audience really loved it. So, pun intended here, it's high time we revisited the subject with the pot doc. And then, once we've done that, we'll open it up to our audience's questions. So we've been out there and sort of harvested their cosmic curiosity and brought it to the show. So...

• 2:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So it's a partial cosmic queries?

• 2:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, so it's mainly driven by our audience. So everyone keep their eyes on the road. The last time, we decided that world peace... Depended on all of its leaders getting high with Chuck.

• 2:19Chuck Nice?

  There you go.

• 2:19Gary O'Reilly?

  Which I thought was splendid. In my classic, classic British understatement, splendid idea.

• 2:25Chuck Nice?

  It's such a simple way to, uh, the answers are out there, is all I'm saying, people.

• 2:30Gary O'Reilly?

  And we learned that marijuana legislation is way behind scientific understanding and data. And so sort of pulling those things together, let's find out at this particular point in time, where we are with Dr. Gruber's cannabinoid research and what other research in medical science is taking place with CBD. And then, once we've tapped into that, we'll, we'll throw ourselves into our audiences, like I said, cosmic curiosity.

• 3:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, all right. So that means we've got Stacy Gruber once again. Stacy, welcome back to StarTalk.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Thank you. So nice to be back, actually.

• 3:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent. And I got your whole CV here. Director of the Cognitive and Clinical Neuroimaging Core at McLean Hospital's Brain Imaging Center. But that's not enough. You also associate Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And my favorite acronym ever, you direct MIND, Marijuana Investigations for Neuroscientific Discovery. That's a clean acronym. You know, most of them, they got, they're tortured. That one just flows.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  I tried. I, you know, technically we could have used-

• 3:39Chuck Nice?

  Somebody was high when they came up with it, that's why.

• 3:43Chuck Nice?

  You want a good acronym, just, you know, pick a couple his. Man, what should we call this, man? You know what I was thinking? MIND.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Right, right. So if only that were true, but, but, you know, I, I wish that we had the word cannabis in the title instead of marijuana, because marijuana has such a negative connotation to it, right? It's really all about cannabis. But then if you try to go back, then it's like, Mckine, McMud, like, doesn't work. So forget it. Plus, states have medical marijuana laws, so I figured we're safe.

• 4:14Chuck Nice?

  And by the way, marijuana is only negative if you're like, old. You know, no, seriously, there's nobody under the age of 50 who hears marijuana and goes, oh dear, my goodness, I believe they're talking about drugs.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Good lord, it's a drug, isn't it?

• 4:35Chuck Nice?

  Oh my goodness. No, it doesn't-

• 4:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Actually, it's literally a weed, right? So, so Stacy, who started calling you the pot doc?

• 4:44Speaker 03

  You know, I think that came from something I did on CNN many years ago. The very first weed documentary called Weed on CNN. That started sort of a whole cycle or series of these things. I was referred to as Pot Doc. I think Sanjay said, is it true your patients call you Pot Doc? And I actually told him, you know, they call me lots of things. That is one of them. That is one of them.

• 5:05Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You heard that Chuck? She's on First Nate. It's Sanjay.

• 5:08Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 5:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all know.

• 5:11Chuck Nice?

  We all know Sanjay.

• 5:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  She calls him San.

• 5:13Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  In fact, I do not, but I, but yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Let's be clear.

• 5:20Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sanjay Gupta, if we were precise.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  Sort of the nation's doctor, right? People think of him as our healthcare provider for the country. And the truth is, he really did raise the nation's consciousness about cannabis.

• 5:33Chuck Nice?

  How?

• 5:34Speaker 03

  And, well, I think the CNN documentary Weed was the very first one to really take an in-depth look. And it was supposed to be, when they talked to our hospital, they really were coming in to look at what we had been spending, you know, at that point, more than two decades on, looking at some of the potential negative impact of cannabis on the developing brain and what happens if you're exposed early and in high amounts. And it very quickly evolved into a different story about the potential medical or therapeutic applications of cannabis, which we were also getting involved with. So it was really a very different story. And it was the very first time the world, well, I shouldn't say the world, this, this country was introduced to the idea of some of the non-intoxicating compounds from the plant being used as therapy in children like Charlotte Figgy, for whom Charlotte's Web is named.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  The, the sort of famous, very high CBD product that allowed a little girl with an intangible seizure disorder to live seizure-free, which was rather amazing.

• 6:29Chuck Nice?

  So you guys pulled the wrestling reverse? Is that what they call it in wrestling? The reverse?

• 6:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, so reverse is someone has, has you in a hold.

• 6:37Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 6:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And if you just escape, that's a one-point escape. But in one maneuver, you can flip the situation and then you're on top in control. That's actually worth two points. That's more valuable than just escaping. Yeah.

• 6:50Chuck Nice?

  So you guys pulled the weed reverse? You did a weed reversal because they came after you to try to, you know, disparage marijuana and then you guys turned it around. It was like, look at all this good stuff it does.

• 7:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wait, Charlotte from Charlotte's Web? This is the story that has talking rats and talking spiders?

• 7:07Speaker 03

  No. Oh, very, you know, so interesting. So once again, a bunch of young people would not necessarily get that, right? So E.B. White, the famous book, good, yes. No, no, no. So Charlotte's Web is a strain of cannabis that is noted for its high CBD or cannabidiol content, which is non-intoxicating. And actually, the way this goes is...

• 7:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And it makes you see talking spiders. This is what you're gonna land on here.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  No, no, but as Chuck very appropriately pointed out, the very first time we met and I knew I liked him, he said, "This explains the talking snake in the Garden of Eden."

• 7:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Oh, okay.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  It may not have been a fig leaf covering their most private parts.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Charlotte Figgy was a little girl with an intractable seizure disorder. This child was having more than 200 seizures a week. Their parents, her parents, she's one of twins, she was one of twins, and her parents were sort of at their end and they had, I think, just signed a DNR, which must be heartbreaking for a five or six-year-old child.

• 8:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Do not resuscitate if something happens.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Exactly. This was, and imagine being one of twins. So now you have a normally developing child and you have this poor child with Dravet syndrome, which is an intractable pediatric onset seizure disorder, which is devastating.

• 8:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they were identical twins?

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Identical twins.

• 8:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So there's a risk to the other twin, I guess.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  But apparently she was okay. And so, as I understand, and they are lovely people, and Charlotte was a force,

• 8:40Speaker 03

  they introduced this very high CBD-containing oil. The Stanley Brothers from Colorado, they turned the original Chimavara, the plant that this was derived from, hippies disappointment, very high CBD-containing combo, not gonna get you high, they made an oil and they gave it to Charlotte. And what happened was, this little girl went from having several hundreds of seizures a week... To being almost seizure free and then ultimately seizure free for a very big chunk of her. Unfortunately, she she died as a result of COVID related illness.

• 9:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What?

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, 2020 is very heartbreaking, but this kid went from she couldn't walk, she couldn't talk to having a normal child.

• 9:21Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so this is a modern story. This is not some old story. Okay, sorry to take it down this path of talking spiders and rats.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  But that's but they call this they call the plant Charlotte's Web for Charlotte's Figgy, which I think is really lovely.

• 9:34Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Really beautiful, really beautiful.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Really beautiful. And and listen, she will live forever. Her life shines very brightly. But but the truth is, this was the first time the nation's sort of consciousness was raised, hey, wait a minute, maybe there's something to this. And of course, many people said, wait a minute, you're going to give cannabis to kids, very, very high CBD, very, very low, and sometimes in certain cases, no THC, CBD.

• 9:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. So so if people continue to remember you, that that's true, you in fact never die. It's a form of immortality to be remembered by loved ones.

• 10:04Gary O'Reilly?

  As we have just proven, Neil.

• 10:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what's your latest research now? Because you have you have a PhD in neuroscience. So that means you're at it. You're you're busy. You're busy bee. So whose brains are you working on now?

• 10:18Speaker 03

  We try to be busy. So so, you know, we we spend a lot of time trying to come up with novel approaches to different conditions or or disease states that plague people as well as thinking about health and wellness. And, you know, for what it's worth, the Mind program hosts a lot of different studies. So we have the very first ever longitudinal observational study of people using cannabis for medical purposes. And we look at the way people use real products in real world situations. And we look at what the products are, how they use, when they use, and how they look over time, not just a week or two, or three months, six months, 12, two years, three years, which is amazing. First data of its kind. And we do neuroimaging.

• 10:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, just to be clear, you just described what longitudinal means in a study. Right, because their longitude lines go vertically on Earth's surface.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  That is true.

• 11:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When you adopt that word for one of these epidemiological studies, or direct study, you're looking for its effect sort of over time.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Rather than a latitudinal, is that a word in your world? Where you're looking at everybody all at once?

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Or cross-sectional study, exactly.

• 11:25Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Cross-sectional study, okay.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  I look good at this.

• 11:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just to make sure everybody's speaking the same language here.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  It's a great point.

• 11:32Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's great to hear the word.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  Longitudinal to me is sort of like having a video. A cross-sectional is sort of like a snapshot, right?

• 11:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Got it.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  We're grabbing a snapshot, one moment in time, if you will, like weeks.

• 11:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And they each have their value to the researcher, right? Depending on what questions are getting asked.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Absolutely, and look, acute administration studies, where you give people cannabis of varying strengths, or, you know, different modes of administration, have utility. I'm very interested in the long-term effects. What do people look like in the real world, using real things for real conditions? Not what I come up with in the lab, but to that point, we have longitudinal observational studies, we have a bunch of cross-sectional studies, and we have clinical trials. Where I make products designed or optimized to treat different symptoms based on the constituent, that is, the sort of quote ingredient profile of the cannabinoids.

• 12:18Chuck Nice?

  All right, so speaking of that, Stacy, when you're talking about these ingredient profiles, which.

• 12:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But Chuck is just upset he wasn't in any of your studies. He's very sad about it.

• 12:27Chuck Nice?

  No, no, no, you don't know it, but you're in my studies.

• 12:35Chuck Nice?

  So, but what I'd like to know is, so every drug has a very particular interaction with the brain chemically. And the resulting interaction causes certain parts of the brain to light up and do things. Since we have cannabinoid receptors.

• 12:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just to be clear, to light up, to light up on her sensors.

• 12:59Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 13:00Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Not just to light up.

• 13:01Chuck Nice?

  Thank you. Right. Wouldn't that be great though? Let me tell you something.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Just lights up.

• 13:05Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, I am not, I'm not pro-drug. However, if it made my brain just light up.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's so bad.

• 13:11Chuck Nice?

  That'd be a different story. But what, what does, what does THC do? What, what's it actually doing? And what do these cannabinoid receptors? How do they play a part? Cause you hear people say, that proves we should be smoking weed. It proves.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:30Chuck Nice?

  Cause we got these receptors, so we should be doing this.

• 13:34Speaker 03

  They say we're wired for weed, right? Wired for weed? Come on, man, I'm wired for it if I got these receptors. So here's how it goes. So every mammal has what we call an endo cannabinoid system. Endo meaning it's, it's within us, right? It's our own system. A system, just think of it this way. Chemicals and receptors throughout the brain and body. Designed for not outsider, exogenous cannabinoids necessarily. But the things we make, we make our own cannabinoids. Anandamide and the, the two most common that we talk about are anandamide and 2Hg. Let's just leave it there for a minute. But to your point about what happens when you use cannabis. So cannabis is comprised of over 400 compounds, over a hundred of which are phyto cannabinoids. That is, they interact from the plant, they interact with our own endocannabinoid system.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  THC is the most common that I think people know the most. And it's the primary psychoactive or intoxicating constituent from the plant. THC has a very strong affinity. That is, it binds pretty readily to CB1 and CB1 receptors throughout the brain. We have primarily two receptor types, CB1 and CB2. THC and CB receptors are very friendly. It binds pretty well. Um, CB1 receptors throughout the brain, CB2 primarily in the periphery and the gut. But that's what THC does. The interesting thing that we're just starting to find out now is that things like cannabidiol, a primary but non-intoxicating constituent from the plant touted for its therapeutic potential, doesn't bind to CB1 or CB2 receptors.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  It appears to modulate its effects through different receptor types, 5-HT1A like serotonin or TRIP or vaniloid receptors. Really interesting. So you can very quickly begin to understand, if you start looking at these things, why people postulate that if you have more than one of these cannabinoids at play at once, you might get a bigger bang for the buck. The so-called entourage effect. These things work together synergistically to create, you know, one plus one equals three, if you will. It's, you know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

• 15:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But isn't Chuck really, isn't Chuck really saying that because of our brain chemistry and because of what this plant can deliver to it, that God wanted us to get high from the beginning? Chuck, isn't that really what you're saying?

• 15:49Chuck Nice?

  First of all, how do you think we got here? God was high.

• 15:52Gary O'Reilly?

  Hey, hey, doctor, I must ask you, because I think we're gonna, we're gonna hit up on a break shortly. The sort of rather 600-pound gorilla in the medical room the last couple of years has been COVID. There must have been some CBD research as to the potential treatment for COVID and long COVID. Now, is that something you ever got involved in, in terms of or aware of?

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. So the idea that CBD and other quote minor cannabinoids that in my mind have a very major role could help because CBD has been touted as a tremendously effective anti-inflammatory. Remember, every day, all of us are dying of what? Oxidative stress and inflammation. That's basically what we have every single day. Long haul syndrome, or COVID, you know, long COVID syndrome, is characterized by sort of a cytokine storm, you know, this pro-inflammatory thing. Is there anything we can do to sort of help dial that down? And there's been some really interesting, very compelling work.

• 16:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, just to be clear, the body continues to overreact. That's what's going on here. Is that a fair way to put it?

• 16:57Speaker 03

  I, I would say so. And again, that's not my area of, my, my area of expertise, but it appears so. And it makes sense, if you think about it. Unfortunately, you may feel better, but you may not really quote be all better. And some of the lingering effects that I hear from people have nothing to do with some of the things that they suffered with. And they actually have to do with cognitive fogginess or, you know, muscle, muscle pain and achiness in places and spaces. They never had issues before.

• 17:24Chuck Nice?

  But you're right about the inflammation. And this is anecdotal and personal, but I got COVID, had a very bad bout with it. And for months afterwards, had just, um, um, what would be presented as puritus or pruritus, which is just itching all over your body. No reason at all, which is an inflammatory response is what you're talking about.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Yes. And so if there's something we can do to dial that down, again, I think of these things as not switches, but dials, right? We want to dial it down, just lower it a little bit. CBD is a really effective anti-inflammatory. There are some other ones, but I think there's some really compelling work that was preclinical or basic work, not in, in, in humans, demonstrating that you can actually modulate inflammation that way. So whether that translates or doesn't, personally, we, we have a project that we're about to submit for review that looks at something, let's just say very similar to that, exactly that way, that hasn't been done before because it harnesses not only certain cannabinoids, but other quasi cannabinoids, G coupled proteins that might be harnessed to help. Again, these

• 18:34Speaker 03

  things work better in the presence of their friends, if, if you know what I mean. So.

• 18:38Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  You know, no, that's Stacy, I could have said that because when Chuck says, I have to think and, and, and Stacy says, well, let me see, the, the pot doc says, let me see what we can do for your condition.

• 18:49Chuck Nice?

  Yes.

• 18:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There's only one solution there. Like, ooh, let's get high and see what happens. Actually, we got to take a quick break. When we come back, more with the pot doc, Dr. Stacy Gruber, and of course, I'm with Chuck Nice and Gary O'Reilly. We're going to finish out some of what you've been up to and then go straight over to our cosmic queries, because this is a hybrid edition of StarTalk.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Hybrid.

• 19:13Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Sports edition.

• 19:15Chuck Nice?

  Hybrid. Okay.

• 19:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay. Sorry.

• 19:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  There you go.

• 19:19Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Don't have to scratch the surface for this, do you?

• 19:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  When, when we return.

• 19:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition. This is a hybrid Cosmic Queries, and we've got back on the show Stacy Gruber, the Pop Doc. She's affectionately known as. And Gary was just getting the latest from her on what her recent research has been into this. And you're going to tie it back to a recent episode we had, Gary, of the New York Giants football player who had chronic traumatic-

• 20:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Traumatic encephalopathy.

• 20:08Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Encephalopathy.

• 20:09Gary O'Reilly?

  It takes a few goes before anyone gets it right. CTE. CTE.

• 20:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  CTE. Doesn't roll off my tongue yet. So Gary, pick it up from there.

• 20:17Gary O'Reilly?

  With pleasure. So, Dr. Traumatic brain injuries, TBIs or CTE, and you as a neuroscientist, have you explored the use of CBD as a treatment for this sort of brain injury? Because we had Leonard Marshall on, the former New York Giant, and he's an advocate for CBD. His personal use. And then we can sort of link it back to the genetic profiling of individuals to see predisposed to having that being effective or not so effective.

• 20:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And before you hit that, Stacy, let me just ask. As I understand it, CTE are physical injuries to the brain.

• 21:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Absolutely.

• 21:02Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Where it's everything you do is chemical. So I guess we're not expecting the chemistry to fix the brain, to fix the physical damage, but can it possibly help rewire it or lessen some of the symptoms, particularly the suicidal symptoms that we know have arisen under those conditions? So just spend a moment just contrasting the electrochemistry of the brain versus physical damage.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  So, you know, I tend to think of them as highly associated, obviously. So when we have an injury or something happens to us, we have a cascade of events that happen, right? At the second level, again, that becomes structural changes over time. And one of the greatest things about brain imaging is that we can actually look at that. We can look at it if we're really fortunate in people before they ever have an injury and then later.

• 21:53Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And even better, look at it before they die. In the living patients.

• 21:57Speaker 03

  If you're really lucky, that's right. And political studies have actually demonstrated some unbelievably promising outcome with things like CBD. So if you have a rodent population and unfortunately you give them head trauma, all right, this is how these studies go, and you administer CBD before they ever have the injury sustained, the ones who had the CBD onboard before the injury recover faster and have a, quote, lesser degree of severity.

• 22:26Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  So, right, so we think of this as sort of the greatest prophylactic that we could think of. Hey, maybe this is a preventative that we want to utilize for our kids.

• 22:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Stacy wants to get the entire NFL high. Oh, my gosh.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  No, no, that's, no, no, no, no, no. I'm on your, I'm on your side of this. Let's be very clear. Hold on, I'm out. Ah, get it? Okay, so time out.

• 22:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I see what you did there.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  CBD, CBD won't get you high. Um, yeah. I want to make one thing super, super clear. So CBD, again, as a prophylactic or sort of protective agent for individuals who are about to, let's say, play sports. Great thing, is an antioxidant, it's anti-inflammatory. Let me say this, these preclinical studies are very promising. We need more human subjected, and we're trying very hard to get this quickly. It's very expensive to do. I just want to make one thing absolutely clear. Purified CBD all on its own is one thing. Most people take products that are either hemp derived or cannabis derived that are high in CBD, but that contain other cannabinoids. That said, you can have THC and other cannabinoids.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  We talked about this last time. People can unknowingly and unwittingly be positive on a drug screen, never being high, never being intoxicated or impaired, but there's trace amounts of THC in the product, so they pop positive on a urine screen. That said, CBD can limit the severity and extent of the injury, it would appear, from these basic or preclinical studies.

• 23:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Early studies.

• 23:58Gary O'Reilly?

  No studies need to get across the line, Doc. Because this, this isn't just an NFL thing. This is across so many different sports. And, you know, you're dealing with young people who could face a terrible, terrible future. So, yeah, Godspeed with that.

• 24:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, Gary, Gary among them, right?

• 24:16Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, yeah, totally, yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  When we have a scenario where we know there's a group that's vulnerable to X or is already experiencing Y, why wouldn't you try to introduce something that we know will hurt, but could very significantly?

• 24:30Chuck Nice?

  So let me, let me ask you this. And I'm sorry if I'm derailing this, but I'm just sparked. What is the control and the variable groups that? Because what you're kind of doing is, or do you just give it to everybody and then study who's injured?

• 24:47Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, she's a scientist. They have control samples.

• 24:49Chuck Nice?

  No, but, no, but.

• 24:50Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We're going to ask her that.

• 24:51Chuck Nice?

  No, my point is this. You have to get somebody hurt in order to know how this works.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  So the difference is.

• 24:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  That's why God invented rats. Okay.

• 25:01Chuck Nice?

  Well, I'm not, I'm not talking about the rats.

• 25:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This was clear.

• 25:05Chuck Nice?

  No, I'm going straight to the human trials. Let's, I'm going straight to human trials.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  That's a great question. And, and, you know, if you're not going to sort of look at it in a preclinical model where you can do these things, although, you know, not the greatest in animals, what do you do? So you either pre-treat everybody and those who sustain, and you test everybody. And then you see how those who are on something like CBD just sort of as helping wellness do versus those who weren't. That's one model. There are a number of different models that people are using. But to your point, again, the pre-post control is important here. We have, I just got approval from the FDA for two new clinical trials. One is in patients with glioblastoma. So the most devastating and fatal type of brain cancer, right? Is glioblastoma. And these people suffer terribly with, with terrible anxiety and pain.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  What do you do as a control group? What do you do? You use standard of care. So people who are undergoing their normal treatment versus those who are adding, let's say, my product.

• 26:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Got it.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  So that's the other thing that you would do in this case. So you have, let's say, people who are athletes, typical standard of care, they have their regular regimen and everybody adds it. Those, but everybody's assessed. And then those who sustained an injury, you look at those people over time. You can do that.

• 26:19Chuck Nice?

  Cool.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  That's, that's one, that's one way. We do the same thing with, with patients with psychiatric conditions. Because otherwise, how do you know? But it's a really valid question, for sure.

• 26:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, you got one more before we go to our audience?

• 26:31Gary O'Reilly?

  Basically, are we, sort of linking back the genetical profiling, because some people will be predisposed, and I think you're doing some research in this area, and some people not so much, to the value and efficacy of CBD. Are we any further ahead? Oh, probably rephrase that. Are you any further ahead in that research? Because I haven't joined the team. I'm on the sideline.

• 26:57Speaker 03

  Now we're all family. Are we?

• 26:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  The collective we, the human species. I like to think of us as one, yes.

• 27:02Gary O'Reilly?

  It's been the Queen's Jubilee. We're all we.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Right, that's right. I think we collectively are further ahead in terms of our understanding with regard to the genetic liability for some people to respond negatively to cannabis. Because remember, it's comprised of many different compounds. CBD is one constituent, one compound. There are some people for whom even small amounts of THC are absolutely contraindicated, absolutely not. And it's not just your genetic liability with regard to, let's say, a family history, for example, of psychosis, where we would not necessarily want to introduce a lot of THC. We also have our genetic profile in terms of how well or how effectively and efficiently we metabolize these things. If you're a very rapid metabolizer of THC

• 27:48Speaker 03

  versus a very slow metabolizer of THC, that's going to make a difference. So what we know about CBD, THC, and genetic profiles is just now starting to sort of blossom. We're getting there. But I will tell you this, very, very important. Many do not necessarily know or appreciate the fact that cannabinoids, especially CBD, and to a slightly lesser extent, but still to a significant degree THC, interact with the cytochrome P450 enzyme system, our liver's way of processing drugs. The reason that's important? We've all heard people say, "I can't take this because I can't have grapefruit juice because I'm taking this drug." Well, that's because grapefruit juice

• 28:32Speaker 03

  affects the way you metabolize that drug. It's the same for CBD and THC. So even if there's no other quote "contraindications" what people are taking. What else people are taking is incredibly important. It is not necessarily benign. CBD can be incredibly helpful and potentially harmful, depending on what other substances you may be using. Wow. I just want to make that clear.

• 28:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't know people who ate grapefruits had that accent. That's an interesting.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:58Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  These people have.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  You know, I very often get.

• 29:02Chuck Nice?

  I got some grapefruit in my eye. Why does it squirt like this?

• 29:09Speaker 03

  It burns, it burns.

• 29:10Chuck Nice?

  Oh my god.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  Very often.

• 29:14Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, let's get some questions.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  We'll do their group, right?

• 29:17Gary O'Reilly?

  All right.

• 29:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So we got our Patreon members who in our, in our, in our new model, they're the only ones who get to ask questions for, for, just to give people a little incentive to join, join the, the, the community. I don't want to call it a club because that sounds so exclusive, but the community of people.

• 29:36Gary O'Reilly?

  All right. Okay, Neil, I'll get to some citrus free questions, right? This, this is from.

• 29:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Chuck, are all clubs have British accents?

• 29:45Chuck Nice?

  So very good of you to come by and be a part of our Patreon.

• 29:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Hence the term stiff upper lip because it doesn't.

• 29:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Patreon cabal? Is that what it is?

• 29:57Chuck Nice?

  That's what it is. Our little Patreon cabal.

• 30:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  All right, Gary.

• 30:02Gary O'Reilly?

  All right, here we go. Peter Torinsky, I hope I pronounced it correctly, is from Poland. And he's thinking is this, I've often heard about people with a history of schizophrenia in their family should never try cannabis as it can trigger this, this, this disorder. But could long-term use trigger any mental disorders in healthy individuals without such predispositions? And secondly, has cannabis been successfully used in any medical treatment for reasons other than pain relief? And increasing appetite. So a few things to cover there, doctor.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Few things to cover is right. So first and foremost, great question. And we were just talking about this. So when we talk about cannabis, you know, we tend to use this one word, but THC, the main or primary psychoactive constituent in the plant can exacerbate psychosis. And has been postulated to perhaps create a greater likelihood of having psychotic type behaviors in healthy individuals. Okay. Doesn't mean it causes psychosis. It may create a situation where you're more likely to have these behaviors, especially if you have a history or family history. That's very, very important. So the question was people with the history of schizophrenia in their family. So that is what I call a genetic liability or genetic predisposition. And so for those people, we always say be mindful of THC.

• 31:18Speaker 03

  But interestingly, and very importantly, cannabidiol, sort of the country cousin, right, to THC, and is non-intoxicating, has been shown potentially to help with things like psychosis. There have been a number of studies that have demonstrated CBD is an effective antipsychotic agent. So what is one to do? You have to treat these constituents as individual constituents.

• 31:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Individuals.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Not as one thing, right?

• 31:43Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I just say this, but every time you say cannabidiol, it sounds like you just made up that word on the spot. It just sounds like a cannabada-dabadoo.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  Cannabada-dabadoo. Well, that's what Fred Linsel was really saying, I think. Yeah, right. We don't know.

• 32:00Gary O'Reilly?

  I'll buy that.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  We, he and Barney were spent a lot of time in the.

• 32:03Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Clearly, clearly.

• 32:05Speaker 03

  But to the other question about successful treatment of other medical conditions, you know, the 2017, the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine put out a report, the Health Effects of Cannabis and Cannabinoids. And they, they reviewed, I think, 10,000 studies and found evidence for what I call the big three plus one. Chronic pain. Nausea and vomiting is a function of chemotherapy and muscle spasticity is a function of MS. But they quote plus one.

• 32:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  MS, multiple sclerosis.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Multiple sclerosis, yes, sorry. The plus one was intractable pediatric onset seizure disorders. So seizure disorders that occur in childhood, things like Lennox-Gastaut syndrome or Dravet syndrome, like something Charlotte Figgy suffered from. CBD has been effective in treating that. In fact, we have an FDA approved medication Epidiolex that is cannabidiol based. There are other indications for cannabis and cannabinoids that are certainly promising, but there's not, quote, conclusive empirically sound data just yet. Anxiety, I would say, is racing to the finish line with regard to a potential impact of CBD. Certainly seems to help with anxiety.

• 33:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And we actually probably have time for just one more question before we take our second break. So Gary, what else you got?

• 33:22Gary O'Reilly?

  Okay, we have Woody. Woody's down in Adelaide, I'm guessing that's Australia, says, "Does weed help or hinder recovery and muscle growth? Would the additional nutrition from being able to consume five times as much even be used?" So.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  I'm not sure about the second part of the question.

• 33:41Gary O'Reilly?

  No, I'm going to leave that to you to answer or not, as it were.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  But does cannabis help or hinder recovery and muscle growth? So, you know, again, some of the constituents, including cannabidiol, have been shown to be tremendous anti-inflammatory agents. And there's a huge amount of neuroprotective and potential analgesic effects of some of the lesser known cannabinoids, including CBD.

• 34:04Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So more broadly then, not to put words in your mouth, but I think what you're saying is so often inflammation in the body delays or inhibits your recovery from whatever is going on. So if you have something that suppresses... Your inflammatory immune system, while it doesn't explicitly rebuild the muscle tissue that you may be necessary, it helps your body to get there faster. Is that a fair characterization?

• 34:30Speaker 03

  I would say that's very fair. And what I was actually just about to add to that point is that CBD, CBC, some of these other constituents are clearly being used by athletes for exactly this reason.

• 34:43Gary O'Reilly?

  Because no one's going to get in an ice bath anymore. I'm not sitting in there for 15 minutes. Give me something that works quickly.

• 34:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Give me some chemistry.

• 34:51Chuck Nice?

  But an answer that definitely that is applicable here is it can't hurt. Okay? There you go.

• 35:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  But also, this is non-steroidal anti-inflammatories. So to the extent that steroids are taboo, we've got another path around that. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, more with the Pop Doc, Dr. Stacy Gruber in StarTalk Sports Edition. We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition, all about the latest on cannabis. And we touched on what roles it has played in recovery from injury in sports or just

• 35:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  in life, and how it suppress seizures in the right dose for the right genetic profile. So this is all really good stuff, Stacy. It's great to catch up with you again on your work and the work of your field. And this is also hybridized as a cosmic queries. So let's see how many we can squeeze into this last third and final segment. Gary, so go for it.

• 36:04Chuck Nice?

  Let's see how tightly we can roll this segment.

• 36:08Gary O'Reilly?

  Let's do our best, huh? All righty, Alejandro Reynoso.

• 36:12Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  No, no, Chuck has to say his name. Chuck has to say his name.

• 36:15Chuck Nice?

  Wait. Oh, it's our friend. Hold on, hold on. Alejandro Reynoso.

• 36:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  From where?

• 36:25Gary O'Reilly?

  From Monterrey, Mexico.

• 36:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I didn't ask you, Gary. This is Chuck's moment. From where, Chuck?

• 36:32Chuck Nice?

  From Monterrey, Mexico.

• 36:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, your turn.

• 36:38Gary O'Reilly?

  I've got to follow that now. Sad British accent. Anyway, hola, hola Alejandro. What are the most common myths on marijuana? And what the actual science says about it? I think we've exploded the last bit. So what are the common myths, doctor?

• 36:52Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Well, just, just that, I mean, I want not just a regular myth. Give me the biggest. Yeah. The biggest falsehood. Right. That is just outright false, that probably we've heard recounted in Congress and in people who are otherwise under informed. The top three of those.

• 37:09Gary O'Reilly?

  Great.

• 37:10Chuck Nice?

  It makes you like jazz music. Oh, that crazy music. That crazy jazz music.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  So, so actually, picking up on that, and like my posters behind me, I think the first myth is that everybody who uses cannabis will basically become some kind of a drug-induced, will enter some drug-induced fugue and never be themselves again. The so-called reefer madness sort of response, right? And in fact, not only do we not see that.

• 37:40Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Just to be clear, that was the, the basically public service short film. Was it from the 1930s? When was that made?

• 37:47Speaker 03

  1937. That's right, 1937.

• 37:49Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  1937, yeah, yeah. And it was quite potent at the time, right? Just freaking everybody out. Okay, so go on, yeah?

• 37:54Speaker 03

  It was. So I think that that's probably one of, if not the greatest myth, right?

• 37:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  How about that? It's a gateway drug.

• 38:01Speaker 03

  I was going to say that is number two. And it turns out that kids who are using cannabis are statistically more likely to go on to use other drugs, but that's not because of the impact of cannabis per se. It's the same factors that drive cannabis use perhaps drives them to look for other things, but it's not that marijuana paves the way from a neural perspective, right? All these things are rewarding, we have reward circuitry in the brain, but that doesn't mean, there's been no conclusive evidence that cannabis itself, the drug effects of cannabis are causally linked to the subsequent misuse or abuse of other drugs.

• 38:33Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And what about addiction?

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Um, so addiction or misuse or dependence, it's certainly possible to develop a problem. Um, in the old days, people said, you know, somewhere around nine percent of people who use cannabis are likely to develop dependence. That number has jumped to about thirty percent in more recent years. My problem with those numbers is that they're generally based on retrospective survey data and not face-to-face clinical interviews, which of course are the gold standard. So, um, that also still pales in comparison to other substances typically. So, so, um, if you use cannabis is going to become dependent. Actually, it's a relatively small percentage, although we want to be mindful. Cannabis today is more potent. Potency, uh, we typically use, uh, we define as amount of THC. Higher THC, higher potency, higher potency

• 39:19Speaker 03

  may lead to a greater difficulty with the substance. So that's just something.

• 39:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay. So if you, if you transported someone from the 1960s into the 21st century, hey, man, I got four joints, let's smoke them. This is the wrong decision because they've got, they, they had a, that weak cannabis in the 1960s relative to today.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, somewhere, somewhere, um, lower than five or six percent THC. And now the national average THC is about eighteen percent. Oh. That's in flower. That's in flower.

• 39:47Gary O'Reilly?

  Holy smoke.

• 39:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. Holy smoke.

• 39:49Gary O'Reilly?

  Yes, I knew what I was saying.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  And I'll tell you this, just real quick. So that's flower product. When we get to concentrates, they start like at thirty-five, forty percent THC. They go north of ninety percent. So for people, that's, that's a lot of THC.

• 40:02Chuck Nice?

  Yeah, that's the difference between like a glass of wine and grain alcohol.

• 40:08Speaker 03

  Everclear, everclear.

• 40:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Everclear, everclear. And just one, another quick thing, because it's highly informative, Stacy. Um, can you distinguish for me, uh, a, a dependence that's sort of biochemical, such as what we've known happened with opioids, and just you enjoy it so much, you just want to keep doing it?

• 40:27Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 40:28Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you like it?

• 40:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:30Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And is there a distinction between those two? Or are they functionally the same?

• 40:33Speaker 03

  I think for many people, they wind up being the same. So again, we have neural circuitry, the reward circuitry that is triggered when something feels good. And by the way, your brain doesn't care whether it's an opioid, cannabis, or sugar. Doesn't care. It feels good, same quote areas light up, if you will.

• 40:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gimme some. Gimme some more.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Gimme some. That's right. Your brain on sugar is a whole lot like your brain on cocaine.

• 40:54Chuck Nice?

  It is.

• 40:55Speaker 03

  Right? If you're a cocaine person. In terms of cannabis, many people argue that, you know, you can't die from a cannabis overdose. There are no cannabinoid receptors, for example, in the brain stem. You don't stop breathing like you would perhaps with opioids, right? Or benzodiazepine. These are very important distinctions.

• 41:11Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And one last one, I just want to hear from the expert. No one has ever gotten a ticket speeding while they were high on marijuana. Is that correct?

• 41:21Speaker 03

  That's not correct. That's not correct.

• 41:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's not correct. Okay.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  So what you're referring to is people generally, when they drink and they think they're okay, they hit the gas and they move left on the highway when they're quote using cannabis and they're aware that they're a little altered, they hit the brake and they move to the right. But

• 41:36Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, okay.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  What they really do is demonstrate a fair amount of lane movement, very often acute intoxication. Interestingly, interestingly, when they're not acutely intoxicated, our medical patients tend to look better after using for a period of time than before they started using, whereas our recreational adult folks don't look better. It's kind of interesting.

• 41:57Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Wow. Okay. Interesting. Okay. Gary, give me some more. See how many we can squeeze into this segment.

• 42:01Gary O'Reilly?

  Colton Judd, question is about the way cannabis is grown. So here a little zigzag on the direction here. What determines whether it's sativa indica or a hybrid? Does it need special grow lights or maybe environment to give the different types of highs? Thanks for the great work. Keep it up. You're welcome, Colton.

• 42:22Chuck Nice?

  This dude is trying to get you to put him in business growing weed in his closet.

• 42:29Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So Stacy, I had never heard this before. Is there a distinction between the species, the subspecies of the plant and how it's actually grown? And how you grow it make a difference there?

• 42:40Speaker 03

  So really, really interesting question. And, you know, in the old days, we talked about species of cannabis, things that are closely related, but have different physical and chemical characteristics. So-called indica, these kind of short, fat little plants that are sort of a body high, I feel sedate, I feel chill, I just want to eat, versus a sativa, a tall, lankier plant. It's a sort of a head high, invigorating, energizing, euphorogenic, really creative. I want to make, I want to, you know, that kind of thing. So these days, we don't say strains, we say chemaval. We say chemavar, a chemical variety. And in fact, the thing that distinguishes the two species is the fact that they're different. It's not how you grow them, they do grow differently.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  For example, indica grows more quickly than a sativa. But, but the thing that distinguishes them is the fact that they are different species. Most plants these days, most people who are experts at growing will tell you almost 100% there's no such thing as a pure sativa or pure indica anymore. They are all hybrids. They are sativa heavy or indica heavy, but really hard to find a pure example of either.

• 43:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What's their favorite color light to grow in?

• 43:51Speaker 03

  So they have special, special spectrum lights set to optimize the flowering from the vegetative state, right?

• 43:59Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So they're mimicking the sun, I guess.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  They mimic the sun, but then they actually have these ridiculous schedules. So it's the more light they're exposed to, the longer they're in the vegetative state. So they'll grow taller and not flower. When they flower is when you harvest. The flower is the bounty. That's the thing.

• 44:16Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Okay, so they don't necessarily live 24 hour days?

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Right. I think that, again, this is, again, I don't, I'm not a grower. And let's be give people ideas about what to do and how to do it. I think when you want them to flower, you change the cycles. It's like a 12 12 or an 18 6. But yeah, it's not 24.

• 44:36Chuck Nice?

  There you go. Dr. Gruber is a knower, not a grower.

• 44:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, give me some more.

• 44:42Gary O'Reilly?

  All right. From the artist formerly known as James Smith, right, says, "Is there one drug that will put you and keep you in an altered state?" And obviously, if you answer that question, that's going to make the artist formerly known as James Smith particularly happy because they're probably going to go out and grab some.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  I see. Right. I don't know of anything that will keep you, that is, put you and keep you as in an indeterminate period of time in a state. I think some people have had tremendously long trips with lots of hallucinogens, which are experiencing resurgence of popularity right now. And that's certainly one, different from cannabis, for sure, for sure. I, that's a great question.

• 45:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, but I would, I would say if it creates a permanent state, then you will no longer know what it is to be high.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 45:33Chuck Nice?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Because you need the contrast between the high state and the non-high state.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 45:39Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  It's like you can't have a one-sided coin. And is the, is the, is the good without an understanding of evil?

• 45:45Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 45:45Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  This is very yin yang.

• 45:46Chuck Nice?

  That's also normally called an addictive state because you are doing the drug to be normal. So if it puts you in a, you know what I mean?

• 45:56Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  If, if, if the drug normalizes you, what's next?

• 45:59Chuck Nice?

  You're just an addict now.

• 46:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right, right, okay.

• 46:02Speaker 03

  But didn't he say that puts you and keeps you in an altered state, right? So, but to your point, yeah, it's a good, that's a great question because where is the contrast? If it keeps you in an altered state, you're no longer altered. It's just your state.

• 46:14Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 46:14Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So. Correct. Very philosophical point there.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Very deep.

• 46:17Chuck Nice?

  And guess how he thought of that question?

• 46:21Gary O'Reilly?

  Let me, let me come back to you on that.

• 46:24Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, some more.

• 46:26Gary O'Reilly?

  Dylan, I have many teenage friends who use such drugs as pot and weed. I thought they'd be the same. And I would like to know more about the effects on the teenage mind after many uses and are the dangers we hear and see true or false. I always try to stop them with the idea that it's bad, but I need more to back up my claims. Thank you all for the science you provide to the public and the comedy. So Chuck, big up to you.

• 46:51Chuck Nice?

  Thanks, yeah. But you know what? Instead of teenage mind, Dr. Gruber, let's go with the developing brain. Because that's really what it's about.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:01Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Right. The teenage mind is really not all wired yet.

• 47:04Chuck Nice?

  So true.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  So.

• 47:06Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So what can you tell us?

• 47:06Speaker 03

  So I would say that during adolescence, emerging adulthood, you know, when we're, when we're little, the brain is, is vulnerable. We're under construction, like I like to say, we're half-baked. The brain develops from the back to the front and the bottom to the top, and we are not fully developed until at least most likely our mid twenties.

• 47:23Chuck Nice?

  Right.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  So it's important to know that. By the way, the brain is vulnerable, not just to cannabis, but to any substance.

• 47:29Chuck Nice?

  Alcohol.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Alcohol. Illness, injury, anything. The brain is under construction. It's a vulnerable substrate. So in general, it's vulnerable. But what we know about cannabis is that early exposure. So our studies look at folks before they're 16 versus those beyond the age of 16 with regular use. That is, you know, four days, five days a week. What we know is that early, frequent and heavy exposure to cannabis results in somebody looking slightly different from those who don't use at all, for sure. In fact, most differences that we see in recreational or adult users come down to the idea that there was early heavy use versus not so much. That's a really.

• 48:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are they not as smart? Are they not as social? What's, what is the symptom?

• 48:12Speaker 03

  You know, interestingly, we, we look at, remember I said the, the brain develops back to the front and bottom to the top? Last part of the brain to become developed is the frontal cortex. The frontal cortex is critical for what we call executive functions, the ability to inhibit inappropriate responses like, man, where's this girl going to stop talking? Like, you don't say that, you're thinking it, but you don't say it.

• 48:30Chuck Nice?

  Impulse.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Or, you know, what not to say in an elevator. It's also the first to go. Think of, think of the comparison between very little kids and old people.

• 48:40Chuck Nice?

  Sorry, Dr. Gruber, the answer to that question is, excuse me, that was me.

• 48:46Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I know. I like the idea that we evolved to know how to behave in an elevator, which is a 20th century invention. Right? I love that.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  But, but that frontal cortex, again, being the last to come online, evolutionarily older parts of the brain, like your limbic system, things that are responsible for fight or flight, making sure you're fed and protected, things that keep-

• 49:09Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  What they call the reptilian brain, I guess, right? We've heard that.

• 49:12Speaker 03

  And they call it that because evolutionarily speaking, it's the oldest. We've had it forever, keeps us alive. The frontal cortex is the part that we go, you know, I know this is a bad part of town and he looks sketchy and I think I see a knife, but I'm gonna stay here anyway. No. You know, that's, we talk ourselves-

• 49:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I'm gonna date, date him.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  I'm open minded, yeah. Um, listen, I always say, trust your gut. But, but the deal is, that, that part of the brain is the last to become fully developed. And when you expose, you know, an emerging adult and adolescent to high amounts or high potency or high frequency use of cannabis, there's a greater likelihood of having difficulty with those types of tasks that wind up being very important in day to day living. That's the thing.

• 49:54Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Gary, we're running really short on time here, okay? Pick a good one.

• 49:58Gary O'Reilly?

  So Amanda Lininga has asked this question. Is there any real proof of how much pot can help someone with chronic pain? I mean, my, goes on to say, my mom had lived with chronic pain in about her last 20 years of life, of multiple surgeries, and I hear through different news stories about the possible ways it helped control the pain better than the prescription pain meds. So, do we have sort of empirical research to, to back this up, or are we still finding our way forward?

• 50:28Speaker 03

  So, again, that first report, that NASOM report, chronic pain was, was one of the big three. And that was primarily THC, which is an effective analgesic. But remember, there's different kinds of pain. There's, there's musculoskeletal pain, there's neuropathic pain, different kinds of pain. I would also say, and CBD, because of its anti-inflammatory effects, has also been shown perhaps to be helpful with pain. That's a really important thing. Plus, we do see studies demonstrating reductions in the use of conventional medications like opioids, like benzodiazepines, in people who are using medical cannabis. We see this in our study. We see it in states with legalized medical cannabis programs, fewer opioid prescriptions written. Very, very important. So-

• 51:14Speaker 03

  It's very likely that for some, maybe a significant majority of people, if they find the right product or combination of constituents, they do get some relief using.

• 51:23Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Are there enough doctors who know to do that? Or they just say, I'd rather operate on you and give you opioids?

• 51:30Speaker 03

  So it's a great point. And you know, I hate to say this, I'm not even sure it's that, I'm not sure, I'm not sure even if they know if they'd be willing to do it. That's the thing. I think there's so much misinformation about cannabis, because again, back to the common myth, if it's cannabis or cannabinoids, you must be getting high. And I always say, no, no, no, no, not at all.

• 51:51Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And this would be true, even in professional medical circles, there's misunderstandings that you've devoted your life to try to undo.

• 52:01Speaker 03

  I certainly, I have doubled down on the efforts, because the better that our primary care and our specialty physicians understand cannabis and cannabinoids, what they do, what they don't do, what they couldn't do, the better they understand their patients. Because remember, if our patients are using it, we have a responsibility to understand the whys and the whats and the best how-tos. That's my job.

• 52:22Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  So I'm going to land this plane, but let me leave you with a thought, Stacy, that if you're getting this much sort of career trajectory out of some chemicals in a weed, how many plants out there remain undiscovered, simply because we don't have enough people sitting down, hey, let's smoke that, hey, let's smoke this. Could there be an entire, I mean, it's gotta be.

• 52:47Chuck Nice?

  Can't wait to try hydrangea.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Very flowering. I think there's huge potential in botanicals, and I think that we see that with some other things. Primarily these days, we hear about it in the holistic space, like ayahuasca, or, I mean, you know, these are their other sort of natural things, mushrooms, and there's tremendous interest in terms of therapeutic application. You know, for what it's worth, documented videos of cannabis as medicine goes back at least 2,700 B.C.

• 53:18Chuck Nice?

  I was about to say, all you have to do is go back in time, people have been getting high since people have been people, and.

• 53:27Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Since the Garden of Eden.

• 53:28Chuck Nice?

  All you gotta do is just go back in time and figure out what they were doing, and man, can we do that? I mean, it's not legal if nobody's ever done it.

• 53:41Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  I mean, it's not, it's not illegal.

• 53:42Chuck Nice?

  I mean, sorry, if it's not illegal, if it's not on the books. So why can't we just go back and get those drugs? Cause they're written about throughout antiquity.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  And I think, I think we are, I think we're seeing that cannabis was part of our pharmacopeia in 1850. You didn't need a recommendation or certification to use it. Doctors wrote prescriptions for it, for variants and sundry things. It became sort of outlawed much later as part of the marijuana tax act. And then of course it was placed in the most restrictive class of the controlled substance act. But the truth is, we've been using it for thousands of years. And I maintain, a lot of people use it and they didn't get high. The queen, people use it for lots of different things.

• 54:17Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  We gotta quit, we gotta quit there. Dr. Stacy Gruber, it's been a delight to have you now your third time. That's a hat trick on StarTalk. And one of your earliest appearances is when we were on Nat Geo. So that's great to have you back here. And Stacy, how can we find you on social media?

• 54:34Speaker 03

  I'm at Dr. Stacy Gruber on Twitter.

• 54:37Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  And Stacy with an I.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  My mother had to be difficult. That's right. She had to be, she had a mix up. At Dr. Stacy Gruber on Instagram and Twitter. And we have a website, just I think just Dr. Stacy Gruber dot com.

• 54:48Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Excellent, excellent, excellent. And Chuck, you're Chuck Nice Comic and Gary O'Reilly, my three left feet. Tweeting on, on, on social media. We're all good here. So it's been a delight to revisit this subject. Thanks, Gary, for making that happen. This has been StarTalk.

• 55:06Gary O'Reilly?

  Thank our audience for that question.

• 55:07Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yes, yes.

• 55:08Speaker 03

  Great questions.

• 55:10Neil deGrasse Tyson?

  Yeah, very good to our Patreon supporters there. This has been StarTalk Sports Edition, a follow up on an earlier show on cannabis and its infusion, overdue infusion into the health and wellbeing of civilization itself. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, as always, bidding you to keep looking up.