KHC 189 - Rick Reeves

Rick Reeves - Lead Pastor and an elder of Gospel Community Church in Eugene, Oregon. Rick planted the church in 2015–2016 with a strong conviction to bring a gospel-centered congregation to the area. A passionate preacher who has served as the primary teaching pastor for about 10 years, Reeves emphasizes that Jesus is the true hero of the gospel story. In this episode, Rick Reeves joins us for a raw conversation on faith, fatherhood, and the "Proving Ground" of manhood. We strip away the misconceptions of Christianity to discuss the messy reality of the daily wrestle with sin and the relentless drive for approval. From his childhood reputation as a "Holy Terror" to navigating a complex relationship with his "no-bullsh*t" father, Rick shares how a broken past became a mission field. Follow Gospel Community Church: https://www.instagram.com/gcc_eugene/ Listen on: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3XCm31n Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3Dm6ClE Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – The Misconception of the Message of Christianity 00:14:51 – Where Rick Reeve’s Faith Started 00:17:14 – Daily Wrestles with Sin 00:22:38 – Rick’s Upbringing, Fighting, & his Relationship with his Dad 00:29:25 – Proving Ground: Men’s Struggle with Constant Approval 00:34:31 – The Desire to Win 00:39:34 – Having a Missions Field Through Christ 00:49:13 – Hard Childhoods, Broken but Battling a Life in Turning to Christ 00:56:43 – Cam’s Past and Why He Struggles with Imposter Syndrome 01:06:56 – The Path to Becoming a Better Pastor 01:20:54 – Rick’s Favorite Preachers 01:22:59 – Criticism: Communication & Expectations of Rick 01:28:35 – Mindfulness in Discipline 01:29:42 – Rick’s Favorite Scriptures: Parables 01:33:03 – Hope in Growth of the New Church 01:37:28 – Holy Terror Nickname, Sensitivity as a Kid, and Rick’s Dad 01:44:33 – Being Raised in a Christian Home & a No Bullsh*t Dad 01:50:05 – Father and Son Moments are Fleeting & Gaining Approval 01:56:36 – Painted Goats and Mistakes in Hunting 01:59:27 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Good Ranchers: https://www.goodranchers.com/ use code CAMERON for $25 off your first order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  This is the Keep Henry Collective. I'm with Rick Reeves. He is the pastor of my church. Well, it's not really my church, it's a church. I go sometimes. I should go more often, but a gospel community church. And Rick Reeves, you at least got the name right. So that's a good start.

• 0:32Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I had to look at the hat.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  So props there for you.

• 0:37Cameron Hanes?

  No, yeah, we got, hey, we're branding, dude. It's merchandise. So yeah, what's up?

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, first I'm excited to be here. So thanks for having me. But yeah, this, this kind of started off because I said, hey, we're planting a church down in Roseburg and you've given me a hard time for that. So

• 0:57Speaker 00

  yeah, we can share those comments or not about how your whole faith is going to fall apart and all of that.

• 1:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Because we're going to go plant another church. But yeah, we planted Gospel Community Church in Eugene about 10 years ago. Now we're going to go plant a church down in Roseburg, which is where I grew up. And so we started a conversation and you said, we should get you on the podcast. So, yeah.

• 1:17Cameron Hanes?

  Well, you have a, so I'll give it the Cliff's Notes version, small town up like, like me. So we have that. I mean, we've got a bond there, which that I like people with flaws. So just to be honest.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  You like crazy.

• 1:32Cameron Hanes?

  I like crazy. I like flaws. If you've had a perfect life, get away from me. Okay. Cause I can't learn shit from you. But so I've always really liked, and also I like, for whatever, I'm a toxic trait guy, but I like, like strong.

• 1:48Speaker 00

  Is that what your therapist told you?

• 1:49Cameron Hanes?

  I guess. But like even as, even as a pastor, it's like, I want to, I want to be able to look at somebody and be like, okay, I respect them. I'm going to listen to what they say. And if somebody's up there talking about, you know, you know, making. Like carrot cake, or they went to Orange Theory and they're a guy. I'm like, I'm out dude. I can't, I can't do, I, so that's a flaw of mine.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13Cameron Hanes?

  But anyway, so I liked, I liked your sordid past story. Then you fought MMA. You were the holy terror. You had, you had a nickname.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Holy soft now. Yeah, but yeah.

• 2:25Cameron Hanes?

  So I just love, I, I mean, it's just a cool trajectory, cool arc. As long as we don't go back down to where you started.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you're going back to your, your homeland.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  I am, which is, which is in some ways terrifying. So I was back there for the first time this last week. And the start of my sermon was, this is, this is wild to be here. I, I said, the gospel is not for little engines that could, it's for the train wrecks who can't. And, and the man standing up here is a living testament of that, which is, which is true. But that's not an original quote to me either, by the way, but, uh, and then I looked out, I said, Cody. I saw a guy that was like, Cody, I haven't seen you since we were arrested together 20 years ago at the fair.

• 3:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  There's not a worse place to be arrested than, than, than the fair. But, uh, but yeah, that was the start of it. I don't know if Cody will be back, but, but yeah, that was the start of our first soft launch down there this last Sunday. So yeah, yeah. So.

• 3:19Cameron Hanes?

  Well, it's exciting and also I want to support it. So what we talked about is, uh, you know, church plant takes money. You know, people, whatever you can talk about it, not talk about it, but it's just the facts. You gotta, you gotta rent a facility, you gotta pay for the music people, you gotta, you know, all this stuff, chairs, whatever. But, uh, so I said, okay, let's do a podcast. Let's talk about your, cause I like your story. Your story is cool to me. It's just, or it's a, and it's real and it's like powerful. But, um, so I said, let's, uh, let's do a podcast and I'll just say, hey, I'm going to give away a bow. And how I do that is like I do it like one day, if you order something off the website,

• 3:58Cameron Hanes?

  you can get this, I'll pick somebody who orders and they get a brand new top line Hoyt bow. So I said, we'll just do that, then we'll just use the money from that, give to you for your church plan and everybody wins.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Well, it looks sketchy if I put in for the raffle and then I win.

• 4:16Cameron Hanes?

  No, I mean, hey, you gotta work out that with God, I guess.

• 4:21Cameron Hanes?

  As long as he's cool with it, what, what, doesn't matter what I care or think or say.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. So, so going back, a, a big draw for you since, since we're here right in front of each other now and, and, and we, we won't rehash everything from breakfast yesterday, but a, a big draw for you to Gospel Community Church was what, what you would say is the transparency or the authenticity or something like that.

• 4:49Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm, yes.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Is, is, is that what drew you in?

• 4:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I like, like I said, I like people.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  I mean, our, our, our dating relationship started at the Pancake House.

• 5:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah, like years ago, you mean?

• 5:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you came.

• 5:03Speaker 00

  And then you had your wife come and fill out the church for her, so.

• 5:06Cameron Hanes?

  What I said was, you know, you talked to me about your church and I, I don't know if you wanted me to go or invited me or something like that, but I'm like, um, that's my wife's thing. I'll get her on it. So then you kind of grilled me yesterday about why is it your, your wife, why is it your wife's thing? And I'm like, Mike, cause I'm too flawed. I mean, I, I say, I can, I can pretend with the best of them, right? I'm, I'm, I can be fake as shit, but as I told you yesterday is I'm the one who has to look myself in the mirror and no matter, you said, well, you're here at church every Sunday, not every Sunday, but I try to go when I'm, I'm in town, I always go and I'm there, I, I, you know, read the, to read some scripture, I don't read enough, but read

• 5:50Cameron Hanes?

  some scriptures, go to church, do my thing. So it seems like on the surface that doing pretty good. And then I look myself in the mirror and then I have to be like, you are fake. You are, cause I know when I get mad at somebody driving and I'm like, want them to crash or I want to make them crash or, you know, you see a cute girl, you notice a cute girl and you're like. What is wrong with me? So I'm the person who has to look myself in the mirror. So it's like, I'm always torn between how I should be and how I am.

• 6:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So there's a lot there.

• 6:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, there is.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. So since you invited a pastor on your podcast and you're a pastor, which means I get to talk about Jesus and the gospel a lot. So, and so I'll reiterate what I said yesterday.

• 6:40Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:24Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:04Cameron Hanes?

  I'm not someone who's constantly fueling throughout the day unless it's coffee or an energy drink. And that's just how I've always operated. But since Mountain Ops sent me their new big sticks, I found myself reaching for something between meals a lot more. I started throwing a couple in my truck to have after a long run of Piska or Spencer's. And I'll be honest, they actually taste pretty good, which isn't Something I usually say about meat sticks, they're made with whole muscle beef and pork. So the texture and flavor feel like real food, not something overly processed. Each stick has 20 grams of protein and it's a big one at 2.2 ounces. So when you've been putting in miles, climbing and grinding all day, it actually gives you something back.

• 8:48Cameron Hanes?

  It's not just a quick bite, it's real fuel that holds you over and helps you recover. I still eat the same way I always have and nothing is replacing that. But when I need something quick that still lines up with how I live and train, this is what I reach for. Mountain Ops Big Stick. Get 20% off today using code CAM at mountainops.com.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  I'll say this, I think there's a massive misconception of what the message of Christianity is. Massive. And I know it sounds dramatic to say massive, but, but I think it's true. I, I think oftentimes you'll ask people, hey, how's your faith or how's your walk or something like that? And people commonly respond with, man, I'm trying hard, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. And, and the, and the message of Christianity isn't, I'm trying hard, it's I'm trusting, I'm believing. I'm resting in the sufficiency of what Christ has done. And so the, the world says, well, Nike says you can do it. Christianity starts with something completely opposite. It says, you can't do it. You can't live a good enough life. All have fallen short, all have missed the mark.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  And so that's, that, to me, that's a freeing starting point because just like that's honest. And then you read the Bible and you see people that are just absolute screw ups. Like I'm drawn to the Bible because I read it and I'm like, man, God uses the Davids. Like, look at David's story. And, and so you look at stories like that and then you start to realize it. God really does save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And so it's really not about us measuring up, it's realizing right out of the gate that we don't submit a report card of B minuses, we just turn in our report card of Fs. And then we put our trust and faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. And he says, here's my report card of A plus, flawless, perfect, righteous, holy. And he transfers that to us. And so I, I think there's a massive misunderstanding, which is why I'm passionate about preaching the gospel. I have a hard time believing that.

• 10:38Speaker 00

  Like I can tell you, trust in that, believe in that, believe that God's love is unwavering and, and doesn't falter. But I preach it so passionately because I have a hard time believing it. And we talked about this yesterday, like I believe helped me with my own belief. Yeah. I preach the gospel passionately because I have a hard time actually believing it.

• 10:56Speaker 00

  I preach the gospel passionately because I find myself defining myself by my own failures, my own faults, my own sins, the same things you just said are all the things that I struggle with. And if any honest pastor in the world out there is being honest, the man in the pulpit is not saying, I need less of God's grace. They're in the pulpit saying, man, I'm the one who is up here declaring my massive need of God's grace. For me. This will be good. This will be good. Yeah. So sanctification, the way that people commonly define it is the process in which we grow into Christ likeness. Here's the thing, the majority of the times that it's used in the New Testament, it's talking about a past tense event. Because what the New Testament is commonly saying is that you have been sanctified. And that word actually means that you've been made holy and set apart.

• 11:42Speaker 00

  And so the problem is, and this goes back to the problem with Christianity, is people confuse and conflate two doctrines, justification and sanctification. Justification says that you are legally declared righteous by your faith in Jesus Christ. So here's the simplest way to understand it and maybe a way to remember it. Justification is that you're justified. And it's just as if I'd never sinned. Okay. So what happens when we're justified by God through our faith in Jesus Christ is our sins are removed. They were placed on Him, God's wrath, punished Christ instead of us. And then the result is our sins are removed. But it doesn't stop there. It's just as if I'd never sinned, but it's also just as if I'd always lived a holy and obedient life.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Because now the life of Christ is transferred to us and that belongs to us. This is why this is huge. A couple of years ago, I was meeting with a young guy, and maybe you can relate to this because I can. And he kept telling me about something that he did a couple of months back. And he's like, yeah, but you don't get it. I did this. You don't get it. I did this. I'm like, hey. I don't know what you're referring to, and I don't know what you did two months ago. But if your faith is in Jesus Christ, I do know this. Then you're not defined by what you did two months ago. You're defined by what Christ did for you 2,000 years ago on the cross. And you gotta stop defining yourself by your life, your actions, your failures, or even your so-called success. And start being defined by Christ obedience, His righteousness, His perfection, His success.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Because that belongs to you through faith. Like, our faith, our faith in Christ, which our faith is a gift from God to, credits Christ righteousness to our account. So that's justification, just as if I'd never sinned, but just as if I'd always been obedient. So what's crazy is God looks at Rick and sees a perfect obedient man. Not because I am, but because Christ was in my place. And then now, what I do is, is I recognize that that is true. And then I start living a life consistent to who I am as a new creation in Christ. And I will grow in sanctification. Here's the problem. Many people, many people base their justification on their sanctification, instead of their sanctification on their justification, which is even more confusing. But it means this. My security isn't how much I'm growing.

• 13:57Speaker 00

  My security isn't looking inside of me. My security is, is what Christ has done and finished for me on the cross. He said it is finished. Three days later, He rose from the grave. He proved that is true. And so I, as a man, no longer have to rest and trust in the, in the life that I lived in my own actions. Which, that's not a cop-out. But it's really freeing. Because I believe the thing that liberates men, and actually what, what creates fearless men, is men who are loved, and, and men who are loved by God infinitely, that are sons of God, that are secure in that. And, and now, and they now realize, I don't need to prove myself to the rest of the world. Cam, I did that.

• 14:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 00

  For years. I tried to do everything on the outside to fix everything that was broken on the inside. And that's, I think, that's an exhausting route that men fall prey to.

• 14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, a lot of them, most of them.

• 14:48Speaker 00

  I mean, you can't relate, probably. I mean, yeah.

• 14:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, well, so when did, I mean, when did you know? When did, like, how did this faith start with you? And it's just like, when did you, when did you know?

• 15:01Speaker 00

  It's messy. It doesn't look like, it, it doesn't look like how I hear people tell their stories.

• 15:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Or like even my Mamaw, my Papa. They would say, when were you saved?

• 15:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Like, like you gotta have in a journal somewhere, like, like, what was the date?

• 15:17Cameron Hanes?

  Or your testimony.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, man, I don't have a specific date. I was 23 years old and it was a rough night. And I woke up and I said, God, I'm gonna try you out. I don't know what that looks like, but please help me. That, that was my prayer, not the sinner's prayer, not, not what you're. And then so I went and got plugged into a church and, and then came to realize that I am a man who has fallen short. I, I, I am a sinner in need of God's grace and put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ to be the one to pay for those and save me and whatnot. And ended up getting baptized, getting plugged into a church, but then my MMA career took me down to Reno. So all that happened in Roseburg, but yeah, I was 23 and it's pretty gray. Like I don't have that.

• 16:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, just defining clear moment.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Defining, and I wish I did because some people do, and then it makes me go, man, what's wrong with me? At times it's made me question whether I am saved because I don't have that date like some people do.

• 16:15Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you want the all powerful God to show you something.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I wasn't bawling. It wasn't like this, there wasn't this heightened emotion and all this stuff. Like I hear people say they just had to pull their car over the side of the road. They were crying so hard and everything like that. It wasn't like that. I didn't have that. And then, yeah, I think more and more, I went from being incredibly rebellious to incredibly religious overnight. And now I was like, all right, now I need to prove God, he didn't make a mistake. And so then I got exhausted from doing that. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna show God that I'm legit. And I started to believe the lie that what I can do is I can maintain God's love and earn God's love by my ongoing obedience. Instead of realizing the gospel.

• 16:57Cameron Hanes?

  Through works, yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. The, the gospel saved me past, present, future. It saved me, it's saving me now. It's gonna save me in, in the future. And so, yeah, that was liberating for me too. But yeah, not till I was 23 and not a typical, I walked the aisle or something like that.

• 17:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that decision was like many of the decisions I've made in life. Like after a crazy night, then you're like, I'm never drinking again. What was I thinking? And then the next weekend, guess what I'm doing?

• 17:27Speaker 00

  I've had lots of those too. And so this one was different.

• 17:30Cameron Hanes?

  Like that at twenty-three, though, did you? Have you never had a back step since then? Or, or?

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:38Cameron Hanes?

  Has it been smooth sailing?

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's a good question. In a lot of ways, I cut a lot of stuff out of my life immediately because I knew I didn't have any sort of willpower over those things. And so like I quit drinking for, for years. Plus I was fighting at that time and it's just not, you know?

• 17:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Can do so with the diet and whatnot. But, but yeah, no.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  I would say that, and I tell this to our church family all, all the time. When we put our trust and faith in Jesus, we are a saint. That means that, that we are set apart, we are made holy. And, and I would say I'm a saint who struggles with sin. I'm not a sinner trying to become a saint. And, and so maybe this will answer the question a little bit more is I would say I daily wrestle and struggle with sin. I, I, I daily, weekly, monthly wrestle with lust and the things that you just mentioned. I had an addictive personality on the other side of Christ. I still have an addictive personality. I'm just sometimes change what I'm addicted to. I go through seasons of my life where I have to pull back on alcohol because I'm realizing

• 18:45Speaker 00

  that it's not a gift in this season of life. It's becoming my God. I'm not mastering it, it's mastering me. And so if you're saying, is it buttoned up, polished, prim and pretty? I think you know, I think you know, it's not. I think it's a grind.

• 18:59Cameron Hanes?

  Relief for me. I mean, for people like me, because, because people from the outside in might say, oh, man, how nice would that be? Just never have this weighing on you. Like never have the pressure of being a human, a flawed human weighing on you, but you do.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:15Cameron Hanes?

  And, and we can't, we can't beat it on our own, I think is the whole point to this.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right?

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, I'll sit down. It's one of my favorite places in town, Little Big Burger.

• 19:25Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  But I sent down a Little Big Burger with, with one of my friends and former.

• 19:28Cameron Hanes?

  You love fries, it looks like.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Dude, I love fries. I love truffle fries.

• 19:33Cameron Hanes?

  Thick kid.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  That's, that's how you win bench press competitions, Cam.

• 19:38Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Power, baby.

• 19:40Speaker 00

  I'm Clydesdale, though. I'm not gonna tell you what my mile pace was today.

• 19:43Cameron Hanes?

  Six?

• 19:43Speaker 00

  What do you?

• 19:44Cameron Hanes?

  Five?

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Six. I'm a Clydesdale. Six. That's hilarious.

• 19:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Seven forty-five.

• 19:50Cameron Hanes?

  Not bad.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 19:51Cameron Hanes?

  That's not bad.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:52Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, you're gonna gas out after round two and then just get the shit beat out of you around three.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  I think I could've, I think, I think I had another mile in me at that pace. That's probably about it. Yeah, no, but I was sitting down with, with my friend, former elder Ronnie, and, man, he's,

• 20:09Speaker 00

  he's battled with pornography like his entire life. Just a radical testimony and story. And I was sitting down with him and, and still, as a Christian, this is a battle. I, I think that's the key word and what people maybe miss and understand is the battle and the wrestle is, is, is a, is a, is a good thing. Like, that's the sign of the spirit working inside of you when you are battling and resisting, because there are things that I used to not battle and not resist. I just gave way to them. But I asked Ronnie, I said, hey, if I gave you a pill right now and said, if you swallow this pill, you'll never struggle with pornography again or with lust, would you swallow the pill? And he said, no. And I was like, what?

• 20:49Speaker 00

  And he said, here's my fear. He said, if I swallow that pill, then,

• 20:57Speaker 00

  right now, my struggle with pornography and lust, he goes, though I hate it, keeps me buried on my knees and dependent upon Christ and the cross. And he goes, if that's removed, my, my bigger fear is that my pride would destroy me. And so I was like, whoa, I've never heard someone say that before. Like, I assume I'm like, if I got a pill for you and it'll just fix everything, you would take it. But, but from his perspective, he's like, man, this thing is keeping me buried. Now, I'm not saying that Ronnie was saying or anyone's saying that, yeah, just keep marching on after it. But he's saying, man, this thing keeps him humble and dependent upon the cross and upon Jesus, so.

• 21:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's a good perspective.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I hadn't thought of that or heard that either, but.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, because there's plenty of stuff that, that I wish it would go away. I also don't think it's helpful.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  For some guys, I think they think that the way to overcome sin is by hating yourself and hating sin, but that's still all about, that's self-centered. It's still all about you and what you're doing. And I think the, what, what we need to point people to is stop looking at yourself and start looking at Christ. And so you're, you're still just focused on hating yourself and, and wallowing in your sin and, and self-hatred and self-loathing and stuff like that. That's still not loving Christ and that's still not being satisfied in Christ's love for you. And so I want to redirect people from, hey, yeah, put your sin to death, but just hating it isn't going to do that.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  What actually is, is actually feeding on how amazing Christ is, what he's done, what he's paid for, what he's purchased for you, who you are, how God sees you, how he loves you. Yeah, I think men who are the most secure, fierce and, and whatever they do, I'll, I'll tie this into fighting. Okay. I, I started fighting as a non-Christian and I was juiced out of my mind. So backstory, grew up in a some, sometimes when guys say they're like, man, I, I grew up in a really rough household, you know? My dad was meeting me, I think I have a lot. I have a hard time with that because I know what my household looked like and I know what my relationship with my, my, my dad looked like. So that having a spanking might've been traumatizing for you. Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  But having a bloody nose and black eyes is, is much different, right? So, so grew up in this, grew up by just a rough nose, tough dad. I was telling you, my dad's six, five, 300 pounds. I've seen my dad literally get in more fights than anyone else, period.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  I mean, my dad made the paper in Roseburg. I've seen him knock out people's teeth with a mag flashlight before. So just a fierce, fierce guy.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  So grew up in this family and I'm tiny. Yeah. Tiny, I'm skinny, I'm little. I think I felt like I hit puberty when I was 18. So late bloomer. Yeah. Just super insecure. And the way I deal with that is what everyone does is what's wrong on the inside. We think we're going to fix it by doing something on the outside. And so I, I take. Three trips down to Tijuana over the next three years, rested two out of those three, taken to see the judge once.

• 24:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Which by the way, they gave me all of my stuff back every time.

• 24:04Cameron Hanes?

  That was nice.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was really nice. He even told me the best way to get out of town.

• 24:07Cameron Hanes?

  That's like how you usually hear those stories.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 24:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 00

  Anytime we go to Mexico now, if we're on vacation, I'm so nervous and my wife's like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, they can arrest you anytime.

• 24:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  So, uh, so yeah, I, I decided I'm going to get on roids and fix, fix all that I don't like about me. Uh, was an angry kid, got into fighting.

• 24:28Cameron Hanes?

  Steroids will help.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Steroids will help, yeah. Man, I, my first fight, the majority of my professional career was at 170, but my first amateur fight was at 205.

• 24:36Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, and they didn't test, so I was like, this is, yeah. I felt, I, I remember looking across, I was like, this, this poor guy.

• 24:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  He's got like 21 years of just scars and anger and just wrath and bitterness built up, just coming at him. Uh, but, but my amateur career, I was doing that and, and, uh, taking steroids and, and then I quit, not because of Jesus. I, I wasn't a Christian at this point or anything like that. I decided, I, I didn't want people to say, oh, anything that Rick did, it was because of steroids.

• 25:07Cameron Hanes?

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• 25:50Cameron Hanes?

  salt into your morning coffee for a mean mocha. Element is offering listeners of the podcast a free Element sample pack with any purchase at www.drinklmnt.com backslash cam. Also try new Element sparkling, a bold 16 ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water.

• 26:11Cameron Hanes?

  One of the hardest parts of hunting is glassing big country to find animals you know are there. That's why I run Sig Sauer Zulu Imaging Stabilizing Binoculars when I'm covering a lot of ground and need to see everything. These binos are a complete game changer. After long climbs, when your heart rate's up and your hands aren't steady, shaky glass makes it hard to stay locked in. With image stabilization, everything settles down. You can slow the process, really pick apart the country, and catch movement you'd normally miss. I've found more animals and saved a ton of time because of these binos. I actually just talked about how impressive this technology is on the most recent episode of the Joe Rogan Experience.

• 26:56Cameron Hanes?

  Once you use stabilized glass, it's hard to go back. It gives you a real advantage when you're hunting big, open terrain. And here's the rare part. Optics companies almost never offer discounts, but Sig is giving listeners of this podcast 10% off. Just use code CAM at checkout. So if you're serious about glassing and want the same edge I've had the past couple of seasons, head to sigsauer.com, grab a pair of Zulu binos, and use code CAM for 10% off. Sig Sauer Zulu Binoculars. See more, miss less, keep hammering.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  So, but I lost. And I was so wrecked by losing that I stayed in the locker room until everyone at the fights left. Till the entire place was empty because I couldn't face people. It was like I built up my reputation or identity of being tough. And then my sister at the time, she goes,

• 27:51Speaker 00

  she goes, "Dad told me he got beat up by like some skinny scrawny guy." I got introduced to jiu-jitsu. I just thought you could just throw haymakers and win fights. And then some skinny scrawny dude put me in a triangle choke. People thought I was winning because I was just hammer-fisting him. And then all of a sudden, yeah.

• 28:06Cameron Hanes?

  You're tapping.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Tapping. The thing that changed is that.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  Finished my amateur career, started my professional career. That took me down to Reno. And what changed is this, I felt a tremendous amount of freedom. When I understood that my identity was no longer in being a fighter and trying to prove myself, but my identity was given to me as a free gift by God. So my identity was that I'm a son of God, who's infinitely loved and nothing or no one could possibly change that or take away that. You've been around our church long enough. I ask my kids almost every night, why does dad love you? And they say, because I'm your son or because I'm your daughter. So the essence of my love is connected to that relational reality. Every man needs to hear that because it's freeing. Because now for the first time, I remember just like running out to the ring with excitement. I was like,

• 28:55Speaker 00

  for the first time, I don't feel the weight of whatever happens to me in there is going to define me to my core. And I don't know how to face people. I was like, I'm a son of God, who gets to go in there, lay it all down, but it's not going to wreck me if I lose. It's not, I'm not, I'll be able to face people and those types of things. And so, yeah, that was the most freeing and most powerful thing to me, which I tell my kids, I'm like, man, you want to see who's free in fears in any sport or whatever, those that are loved.

• 29:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  And so, yeah, that's what I'm passionate about.

• 29:25Cameron Hanes?

  I think that, I mean, men are kind of judged on accomplishments and worth. You know, like that's how their worth is like, what can you offer? What can you provide? What can you do? So it's like, we talk about this works and it's like, it's not what you do, but we are, society tells us for a man. I mean, there's that meme that says, the only thing that gets unconditional love is women and dogs. Men hit the oil rig.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:51Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and get to work.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:53Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, so it's really hard for a lot of people. Like you had that, that moment or that clarity or that change, but a lot of guys are still fighting with, I gotta prove myself.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Cameron Hanes?

  Cause everyone's judging me. It's like, you go to work and you're like, oh, what's your job? Oh, they pay, how much they pay there? You know, so now they're just like, oh, how much do I make? What's my salary? What kind of car do you drive? You know, it's like, we're always. And we put ourselves in those positions and then we're, then we're like dancing with the devil. Like trying to always outdo this guy or that guy or prove to this girl that you're better. It's like, it's tough. So is, I mean, it's more than tough. It's exhausting and.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  Is the answer faith, faith and just? Yeah, you want me to get you a couch? This sounds like it's gonna be good, man. Lay down. No, I'm just like, yeah, it's, it's just a hard. I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. Yeah, I, I think everything is, is coming at men inside the world saying, you need to prove yourself. Yeah. You, you need to work hard. And there's some aspects of that where I would say, yeah. Because in, in some ways, I think men are running in the opposite direction, even from their God created design on, on, on some of those things.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  What, what I would say though, is that since you're a runner, I'll, I'll, I'll use this analogy. I'm a bow hunter. Okay.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  So am I, Cam. The difference between you and me is that. Yeah. You have animals hanging on your wall, so. You got camo. I'm, I'm a bow hiker. I do have camo. Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Is if two guys line up on a race or line up to run a marathon.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Think about this. If the one guy steps up there and says, hey, man, everything in my life is riding on this moment.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Like if I don't win this race, if I don't perform well, if I don't get first place, if I don't accomplish it, like I lose this, this, this, and this, right? And then another guy steps up and, and he's getting ready to race and he's kind of, I don't know, bouncing around, whatever you guys do before you get ready for a race. Yeah, adjusted jock straps, stuff like that. Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Oh, and, uh, and, and there's a pep in his step. If, if that second runner gets up and knows this, that at the end of the day, that his life isn't resting and trusting in the race that he runs, but in someone else who ran a perfect race 2,000 years ago. And that what someone ultimately needs is not how they can prove themselves externally, but they need to be proven before God and only Christ can do that. I do believe that in the depths of who you are, like every man's soul needs that. Like, I think men are trying to prove themselves and, and, and, and show something. And at the end of the day, there, there is this freedom in saying. Hey, I don't have to prove myself. And again, I'm not defined by what I do or don't do.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  Christ proved me worthy through his life. And I'm defined by his actions, not my own. Like, Christ ran the perfect race and that race belongs to me. The ultimate thing that Cam needs, that every man needs, is they need the approval and love of God. Whether men want to admit that or not, it's like we're afraid to say that. But that's what men need. And so I think so much stuff that we're trying to do is trying to, you know, appease the world or prove ourselves, but to who? Because I think the ultimate person we need to be proven to is God. And someone else takes care of that, his name is Jesus. And so I do think that's freeing and men need to hear that. I don't think it means that men just roll over and become lazy and apathetic though.

• 33:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's because I, as you're saying that, because I'm, I'm the contrarian. Like, I'm always like, oh, you, oh, it sounds like an excuse to be weak. So what I just heard, but so what I would say to that is like, I love that. And it's like, you know, mentally and spiritually, it makes perfect sense. But if the guy who, maybe he doesn't believe in anything.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:01Cameron Hanes?

  He's chasing his own ego, but he worked his ass off. He put in the hard training. He's been sacrificing for years. And this guy goes to church every Sunday. He knows he doesn't have to do it for anybody, but he didn't train. He's gonna get his ass kicked. I don't care who's in his corner. So like, I can, I look, I know what you're saying. And I'm like, I'm thinking about, yeah, that's a spiritual world, but I'm talking about competition, baby.

• 34:30Cameron Hanes?

  So the best, the best would be you're saved, unyielding faith, and you worked your ass off.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Let me give you this.

• 34:43Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  1 Corinthians 15, the Apostle Paul says this, verse 10, he says, "By the grace of God, I am what I am, but his grace to me was not in vain. In fact, I worked harder than anyone else." Then he goes on to say, "But it wasn't I, it was God's grace that did it in me." And so, again, I would say, do all. Cam, you're sitting in front of someone who's one of the most competitive people in the world. You can ask my wife that, and it caused fights when we were dating. And so, our counselor told us to stop doing competitive things. I don't let my kids win. One of my daughters is just like me. She'll flip over a Monopoly or checkers board and stuff like that. We're just, we're sore losers and I'm even, I'm more of a sore winner. So, I do victory laps around my house. Like, it's not pleasant.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  But at the end of the day, the difference is still this. Work hard at whatever you do. And I was told this once by Brandon Slade. He was a freestyle gold medalist wrestler. And I was struggling because some Christians from the Christian community were coming toward me while I was a Christian, saying, "Hey, you can't keep fighting. Like, you can't punch someone in the face. Like, you can't do all this, you know?" And so, I was getting rattled because I was like, you know? And so, he was like, "Hey, Rick, whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God." He's like, "Every double leg I take, every single leg, he's like, 'I'm giving it 110% for the glory of God.'" But at the end of the day, Brandon Slade doesn't have to walk off the mat and feel like he's an utter failure in life unless the only thing that's giving him his identity is his wrestling ability.

• 36:09Speaker 00

  And if the only thing that's giving Cam, you know, his identity in life is a bow hunter, you know, you and I both know that's a horrible identity because bow hunting has the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And year after year, you can drive home empty-handed and feeling like a complete failure. And so, it's not that you stop trying. It's not that you give up. It's not that you don't put in the effort. It's just that your whole motivation changes. Your fuel for the motivation changes, if that makes sense.

• 36:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it does. It's, yeah, it's just, yeah, it's hard, just, I guess, breaking that down in the competition aspect. In regular life, it's super easy. You always, you know, and there's that, it's not even like in, I don't think it's in the Bible, but maybe it's the Ten Commandment, but it's like, treat others the way you like to be treated, blah, blah, blah. All that, sounds great. Sounds great. That's not competition. But, so anyway, that's where, because like, to compete for me, I want to hate everyone.

• 37:11Cameron Hanes?

  And crush everyone. And like, that doesn't seem very Christian like.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Define what you mean by that. Like, when, when, when you are competing against someone.

• 37:24Cameron Hanes?

  I want to win.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  You, you just want to win?

• 37:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, do you think there's something intrinsically wrong or evil with the desire?

• 37:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  Not with you, but with the desire to win.

• 37:40Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's a, it's a validation of the hard work you put in. You want to prove to yourself and to others that, you know, everybody see with social media, everybody sees this shit everybody does every day. It's just like, why are you doing that? You suck at running. So you want to, you want to be like, no, I'm doing all this work and look, see what happened? Okay. So give me a like on there. And I think it's just, yeah. So I think it's that. I think it's like, you want to be acknowledged. And that's another thing. Men want to be acknowledged and respected. And, and so sometimes these works, these accomplishments, give us that.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:14Cameron Hanes?

  And it's hard to get that, just like, because to get that in a regular, like, maybe a regular Christian, I don't even know what Christian life is, but a regular, like, whatever normal people do, which I have no idea. I always said I never wanted a regular life. But if you're just talking to a normal guy from down the street, whatever they talk about, I have no idea. I don't even want to be involved in this conversation. But how do you earn respect? Like, in that situation, I guess it's just being intelligent, uh, having, putting things in perspective, maybe listening, offering advice, I guess, right?

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Yes. So you're saying for the average Joe that's walking just down the street?

• 38:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause when I see the average Joe walking down the street, the first thing I'm thinking is not respect.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:02Cameron Hanes?

  So like, that's where I. You know, like I said, I'm toxic, so I'm not trying to like, say, this is how people should be. This is a flaw.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Again, I don't think you're crazy and I don't think you're the only one that has those thoughts. And, and part of that, correct me if I'm wrong, is, is part of that is that you don't want to be average.

• 39:22Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:23Cameron Hanes?

  That's fail, that's a failure.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, it's kind of like Achilles' line in Troy. He, he, he wants to be remembered, like, like, like he's willing to go fight a battle.

• 39:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 39:32Speaker 00

  Because he wants his name remembered.

• 39:34Cameron Hanes?

  I think that, like, I remember Roy had this, my, my friend, you know, most people know who, who died in 2015, but we were up on a bear hunt, I think the year before, maybe in 2012, hunting brown bear. And I did this little video of him and he said that, um, hunting was his missions field. He said, because hunting is a hard environment, it's a tough crowd, basically. And guys just aren't going to listen to you for no reason. You have to give them a reason. So he said, God blessed him with his hunting talents to give him a reason for other men to listen to him. Like he'd go and speak at Montana Bow Hunters Association thing, do a seminar. Or even in Alaska, I spoke in Alaska and I'm like, why are these guys listening to me?

• 40:15Cameron Hanes?

  I'm being tough down lower 48 is not being tough in Alaska. Alaska is a whole nother level. So, but through hunting, you can kind of like, even the toughest guys will be like, okay, he's killed some good bear, maybe some good bulls, we'll see what he has to say. But without that, so anyway, Roy would say that hunting gave him that credibility to where he could, you know, preach to people essentially, not preach, but like to share, share his journey and they would listen.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  And I, I would say yes and amen, in, in the same way that when I would receive pushback for being a fighter into that community, I said, do you think realistically that some average Joe off the street or someone who is in choir or something like that is going to be able to step into these men's life and be able to share the gospel with them? Like, like, do you think that they're gonna respect them? And I would say, no. There's a level of respect because of the blood, sweat and tears. And so, in the same way for him, which is why I believe that Christians need to be deep within their mission field, but not just that, this, this is where I'm going to agree with you. And maybe this will be the only time, Cam, so, so.

• 41:26Cameron Hanes?

  Good, I'm excited.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, is that.

• 41:28Cameron Hanes?

  Let's equip this.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:29Cameron Hanes?

  We gotta equip this.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, make this the main thing.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  Is it, it pisses me off when anyone in any field isn't striving to be the best that they can be in whatever they do. So this is, this is gonna sound so arrogant, so hear me out. I literally have told people before that I'm trying to be the best preacher in the world, which means I'm applying myself, I'm reading, I'm studying, I'm praying for God to grow me and the gift of preaching. Do I think that I'll accomplish it? Probably not. But it's not from a lack of effort or trying to be that. And I would say if you are a personal trainer, that you should strive to be the best possible trainer in the world. And I would say if you're a bow hunter, you should strive to be the best,

• 42:17Speaker 00

  whatever your job or profession is. I believe because we are Christian, that whatever we eat or drink, or whatever we do, we're supposed to do it for the glory of God. And so I want to do whatever it is that I do to 100% to try to be the best at it, while at the same time knowing that even if I don't arrive at that, it's not gonna cripple me. And I think that's the big thing that like, men do need to hear is that we should be striving like that. We should be living like that. We should be giving it our all. But I think the freedom is this, is that even if I were to become the best preacher in the world, and even if you intrude, which I do, I think you guys will accomplish it. I think you guys will become the fastest father and son in the world. So you're, at least your dreams are practical for you, right? Being the best preacher in the world is probably not. So,

• 43:02Speaker 00

  but even if I, even if I accomplish that, Cam, what I'm saying is I don't believe it's gonna satisfy what my, what my soul ultimately needs. And it's like plugging in a bunch of different wires. We have a bunch of wires at our house, and there's like USB, USB-C, and all this stuff that is hard for me to keep track of. So my wife puts all the cables in a drawer. But it's like trying to just wire in and put in a bunch of stuff that's See if this works. Yes, see if this works. But at the end of the day, I believe our souls were created to be wired back into our relationship with God, to have his approval, to have his approval. And I believe that's what men are longing for. And so I think even the, the working hard and the, our own attempts at righteousness and all that stuff is, I think

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Just trying to do what only Christ can do, and that's get us back into the relationship that we need to be in. Otherwise, I do think everything else in this world is going to leave us dissatisfied. I mean, look at the amount of men who have accomplished huge things. Tom Brady, I don't know if you ever saw that interview, but it was like after the fifth Super Bowl or something like that. He was like, yeah, there's something inside of me that's still. Yeah, missing. Missing. And I'm like, I'm like, hey, I know what that is. Yeah. Like you were created by God and you were created to be in a relationship form and nothing, it's like the wires. Nothing else is going to line up until you're back into this relationship that you were created to be in. And the only way back is Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth and life is through faith in Jesus Christ.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  And then because of that, I believe that men can enter into their careers or their hobbies without being crippled by them. But again, if your hobby or your career is going to be the thing that defines you and you suck at it. I would say, I think I was a lot better fighter. This is a humble brag. Yeah. I think I was a lot better fighter than the opportunities I would given. I was just a lot less of a tool by the time I became a Christian. I was still pretty toolish. My wife can tell you that, but just less. I wish I would have applied for the tryout for the Ultimate Fighter before I was a Christian, because I think they would have loved me then. But, but, but man, there's parts of me that, like, there's part of my, my fight career is like, maybe I don't talk about as much because I never accomplished what I wanted to in that, and I hate that. Like, I wanted to fight for the UFC.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. When I was 10, I wanted to play Major League Baseball. My pap was like, hey, I don't see that working out for you at 10. He was like, what's your backup plan? I'm like, I'm 10. Yeah, really? Yeah, that was, that was an honest conversation.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  You're shit in my dreams already? Yeah, 10, I had to re, I had to course correct my entire life. I could be president, I could be an astronaut. No, my pap was brutal. He's like, I don't see that working out for you. Yeah. What's your backup plan? So, but yeah, all, all those things to say, it's like.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, the things that I was embarrassed by and and I've shared this from the pulpit before, but man, there's things about my story. There's things about my family. There's things about all sorts of stuff, just being a dropout and not even that, but being at alternative schools and then not making it at alternative schools. Yeah, yeah, like all sorts of stuff, having a bad credit score when I married my wife, like all that's just so much stuff that I was embarrassed by. But my attempt was I'm going to try everything I can on the outside to achieve, get success, fix whatever's wrong, but I'm trying to do external stuff to fix it and a problem that's broken on the inside and a problem that I believe that only can be fixed by Christ in the gospel. So, yeah.

• 46:15Cameron Hanes?

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• 46:56Cameron Hanes?

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• 47:36Cameron Hanes?

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• 47:49Cameron Hanes?

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• 48:32Cameron Hanes?

  and about building products here in the USA that actually perform in the field. That's why I trust this knife. If you want to check it out, head to montanaknifecompany.com, and right now, podcast listeners, get 10% off any knife with code CAM10. C-A-M-10. The Keep Hammering Pack Out. Built for the backcountry, built to work. Yeah, and it's like, that's what's, that's what's hard, or that's what's great about your journey, is you have all that negative. You have all that weighing on you. You have all those flaws and the brokenness. And it's like, sometimes I wonder, is that necessary?

• 49:16Cameron Hanes?

  You said you want to be the best in the world. Is that necessary? You know what I mean? Because I think it just adds everything. It adds so much, because most people are broken in some, some way. Maybe not as bad, maybe not, you know, getting the shit beat out of them by their dad. But when you say that, then their brokenness is like, okay, I'm okay then. You know, so if you don't have those stories...

• 49:42Cameron Hanes?

  It's gonna be hard to get buy in. That's, that's what it's like. So.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Cam, I used to hate my story though, man. I was embarrassed.

• 49:49Cameron Hanes?

  Of course. I mean.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  And there's still aspects of it, like, like there's my whole thought life. Like you're saying,

• 49:58Speaker 00

  you know, the, the guy in the parking lot, like when someone flips me off, there's still a part of me that just wants to catch up to him and snap their finger. There's still a part of me of like, whatever drugs I didn't try, my curiosity runs wild. And I'm like, I wonder what that one would have been like. And if I'm missing out on something. So like, man, there's still a lot of that stuff that's there. That's alive and inside of me. But, but yeah, I'm like, there, there's still that aspect of like, the brokenness, though I'm perfect in God's eyes, the reality is that I'm still imperfect on this side of eternity. I'm going to remain that way. And, and until Christ returns. But, but yeah, I, I think. Yeah. Just to clarify, I hated my story. I was embarrassed of it and I ran from, I think the thing that allowed me to come out from hiding.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Was the freedom of knowing who I am as a child of God, knowing that I'm no longer defined by my story. In fact, man, I'm grateful for my story now, which might sound crazy to you and it might sound crazy to other people, but I'm glad there's. A lot of brokenness. Uh, I, I give my, you know, friends a hard time that had really loving dads. I'm like, yeah, it must've been really tough having a dad tell you that you're, he's proud of you all the time, you know, but, uh, but I'm grateful for those things because I, I think it helps me to relate to people and, and be able to empathize with people that are like, that are willing to be honest, that are battling their addictions and battling whatever they're going through. And, and again, I think everyone is, whether they're willing to admit it or not.

• 51:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, I, I totally get that. And, you know, I mean, my mom has apologized to me for my childhood and I said, I go, mom, I'm glad, I'm glad it was so shitty because that's who I am now. This made me who I am. I might be the biggest pussy in the world with like the dad, like champ, we're so proud of you. You can do anything. That's okay. You don't go to practice. Just let's watch TV. That, you know, so. I would much rather have the broken family and alcoholism and all that.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:50Cameron Hanes?

  Any, any day of the week. So yeah, that makes sense. But also what makes sense, you know, you're going back to Roseburg, your, your hometown where you were a screw up. It's like when I go out to my hometown, I still feel like I was the drunk, crashing trucks, just smart ass all the time. Wasn't beating people up, but getting beat, punched in the eye and shit at parties. So it's embarrassing.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:16Cameron Hanes?

  To go back to, because now we're different people, but hometowns never forget, dude. You're, you can't be a star in your hometown.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's biblical as prophets not welcome in his own.

• 52:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  In, in his hometown. I think that's part of the thing though, Cam too, is it's good for you to hear, and I think it's good for other men to hear is I think that terrifies them about, you know, being sold out for Jesus or going all in is that, man, there's going to be these expectations that your whole life is going to like turn around in, in a night. And if it's not, that everyone is going to be disappointed in you and is going to be frustrated with you. And it's just, that's not a reality.

• 52:54Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  It's a process. It's a grind. Sometimes it's two steps forward and five steps backward. And, and that's, I think a picture of what it looks like to wrestle within the Christian life. So I think you need to hear that. I think other men need to hear that is that it, it's almost like, man, if, if I'm following Christ, are all these people going to think that this is how overnight I'm going to sound this way, be changed this way and all that stuff. And I'm telling you, I've been a Christian now for, for almost 20 years. Man, I'm still wrestling and I'm wrestling with those things that, like I want to get out of my car, out of my truck.

• 53:34Cameron Hanes?

  Your, yeah, your little, what is that little car?

• 53:37Speaker 00

  I want to get out of my Prius.

• 53:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, your Prius.

• 53:40Speaker 00

  When, when guys have their, their, their pants below their ass, like sagging them and crossing a crosswalk so slow. It is like, it is everything inside of me just wants to jump out of the truck and just grab them by their pants and just get them going. And so I'm just saying. There, there has to be room and space within our church families for people to be broken and wrestling in this whole messy process, because that's what it's gonna be. I think it's a lot messier than what people realize. I think it's a lot messier than maybe than people want to admit. I believe the gospel is going to save you and take you right where you are. You don't have to clean yourself up and it's gonna transform your life. But that process is messy and oftentimes slow.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  And the beautiful thing is God's not gonna be more committed to a person 20 years from now, when they look more like Jesus than he was in, in, in the moment when he first saved them. Like his, his love is never gonna change. It's not gonna grow. It's not gonna, yeah, I explain God's love like this, like a fire. On our days, we're crushing it. It's not pouring gas on God's fire. On the days when we're dropping the ball, it's not pouring water and cooling it off. It burns hot all the time. And it's because of his decision, his choice, his faithfulness, his goodness and his grace. And because of what his son has done, there's like, we don't, I mean, so people need to know and hear that it's gonna be bumpy, it's gonna be messy, it's not gonna be buttoned up.

• 55:04Speaker 00

  I think that's why you and some other people are like, are, are drawn to our church family. Like that dude's crazy, he's squarely, but he's crazy about Jesus. There's a bunch of broken, messy people here and it's not buttoned up, it's not pretty. And, and, and I think that's, I think that's what it's going to practically look like. And then I think we're afraid that my mess is gonna scare you away or it's gonna scare other people away. And I've been terrified of that too, which is why I hid my story for so long. And I've used this example before, I was watching Eight Mile and at the end of it, they do the wrap off and, and they're like, Eminem goes first. I was like, it was just like, like an eye opening moment for me. And I'm not saying go watch, you know, this is not this pastor saying go watch Eight Mile. It's just a great, great story of good morals. It is good.

• 55:49Speaker 00

  But I love this wrap off, but this is what I love. He gets up there and says, that's right, I am white trash. My, uh, my best friend is Cheddar Bob, who shot himself in the leg. Uh, you know, I did grow up in trailer park and all this stuff and, but, but then he says, uh, he says, go ahead and tell these people something that they don't know about me. And he tosses the mic. Cam, that was a, that was like a light bulb moment for me where I was like, I felt like the enemy for so long had to use so much of what I was embarrassed and ashamed of to just be like, man, if you tell people that, if you tell people that. And even in the pulpit, when, when, when I share sin and brokenness, I'm like, if you tell people that, you tell people that they're going to be right out the door, they're never coming back. But what I've realized, man, is that for the most part, people aren't afraid of our messiness.

• 56:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  What they hate and what is a turn off is when we pretend that it's not there.

• 56:35Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 56:36Speaker 00

  Like you're saying, and then I think people can sniff that out.

• 56:38Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, definitely.

• 56:39Speaker 00

  And they're going, nah, I'm not buying it, man. Nice try. So, yeah.

• 56:43Cameron Hanes?

  Do you still?

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 56:46Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Cause I just know me. So I can talk about my screwed up brain.

• 56:52Cameron Hanes?

  I still don't.

• 56:55Cameron Hanes?

  Share all my, everything. You know what I mean? I still kind of water it down a little bit. Like I say, I was a screw up, but I still don't. It's still too much. I'm like, no, you got, okay. You'd give me a little grace on some, yeah, oh yeah, you were young. But if you knew everything.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:14Cameron Hanes?

  So I still don't, I've never been told, I, I'm, I've never been honest my whole life, like a hundred percent honest.

• 57:22Speaker 00

  Well, you just were.

• 57:23Cameron Hanes?

  Well, not really. I didn't say anything.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  Well, you just said that you were, uh, that honestly, you've never been honest. I feel like that's a pretty honest statement. So maybe that's the first time we should mark that down. Cam's history.

• 57:34Cameron Hanes?

  It's, it's hard because you still want to protect yourself.

• 57:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:38Cameron Hanes?

  You know, cause you, cause what happens is like, people say, oh no, you're fine. Here, here's a little rope. And you take a little rope and you're like, I can't hurt myself with this much rope. But if you, if somebody gives you all the rope, like, oh, I'm going to hang myself now. Cause, and so you still kind of like, save a little bit of the, the worst details. I do anyway, but that's a side note. Um.

• 58:00Speaker 00

  I think it's good though. But yeah. So, so let me ask this question. Why?

• 58:04Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I, I think it's just cause.

• 58:09Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I feel like, um, I felt like a, you know, there's that whole stupid, uh, what is it?

• 58:18Cameron Hanes?

  God, what is it? Uh, what's that? Not the fraud thing.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  The fraud thing?

• 58:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, you feel like a fraud, but you're a

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Oh, like an imposter syndrome?

• 58:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah. So there's that. So it's like the imposter syndrome thing where I've always felt like if people really knew like how my brain worked.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:41Cameron Hanes?

  I would be, they'd be like, this guy's a mess. And so I think there's still like that protecting a little or worried too much about like, I'll give them a little just to where I'm relatable, but

• 58:54Speaker 00

  So what you're saying is it's, is it's real dark up there?

• 58:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 00

  I'll tell you a little bit about the shades of it, but I'm not going to let you see how dark it really is.

• 59:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  And, and then what, what, what would be the fear of the outcome? That if you saw that, you would be like, my goodness, this guy is incredibly screwed up.

• 59:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And it's just like, you know, cause there's this whole thing where I get celebrated for like, oh, I've, you know, chased these goals and I had this full-time job and it, and you know, it didn't matter. I did. But what I have to deal with is how hard I was on the kids because I was trying to do too much. I was too tired. I was pissed off all the time. I would, you know, take them to the movie, leave them in the movie, go on a run because I had to get my miles in, come back for like a few minutes of the movie. It's just like,

• 59:38Cameron Hanes?

  and I share that stuff, but there's so many other things where I was just like so selfish to just be like, no, I'm going to be the best in the world at what I do. I don't give a about anyone else. That doesn't feel good.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:50Cameron Hanes?

  Cause that included my family.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:53Cameron Hanes?

  Let alone it's me, it's, it's, it was easy for me to say I didn't care about a guy who is competition. But how could I steal from my, steal me from my family? You know what I mean?

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Cameron Hanes?

  To chase it. So I haven't even, you know, there's a million different examples that I'm embarrassed.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  Was that a hypothetical that you took your kids to the movies and then left and went for run? Okay, I've never heard you share that or talk about that. So, so you share that because why? Because that's something where you feel embarrassed about or you look at that and go, man, that was selfish?

• 1:00:27Cameron Hanes?

  I can't even, I, the thing, it feels selfish that I couldn't even turn it off to enjoy a movie with my kids.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:33Cameron Hanes?

  I still had to do my thing, get my miles in. So, put, took them to Regal, ran around Alton Baker and did all that, got my miles in. And it's just like, yeah, so I just feel guilty about putting my own goals above. You know, and, and it feels weird now because I get celebrated because true is successful. Tanner, Tanner does good. Tanner's a beast, but I'm like, man.

• 1:01:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:02Cameron Hanes?

  It just doesn't feel like, like I, I did the best I could do.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:01:08Cameron Hanes?

  And, and so I feel like, I feel fake.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  Man, I'm, I'm piecing all this together as you talk, but uh, so you, you feel fake because you're praised for all that you do and you're celebrated for that. And then even your kids have some pretty incredible success because of that. But at the end of the day, you're recognizing, man, a lot of what I did was from my own selfish ambition.

• 1:01:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Speaker 00

  Is that accurate?

• 1:01:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:01:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I would just say, I'm providing for my family. I'm showing my kids what hard work mean, does and can result in, and that they can do whatever. So I was like, I would twist it to, to be like, oh, this is what I should be doing.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:01:52Cameron Hanes?

  But it was just me justifying it.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Well, do you recognize that or see it is a good thing that you even can say, man, I, I don't feel like that was right? Like, do you think that's a good thing for you to be able to recognize, hey, I think that was selfish and, and I don't feel good about that? Because I, I would say, uh, I think it's a cop out when men say, my job is to provide and that put, that means putting food on the table. I would say that's part of it, uh, and that's part of what it is to be a father, but, but it's also being present too. And so like, are you saying, I mean, I think it's a good thing to say and recognize, man, how, how can you admit on this podcast with I don't know how many men watching? How are you able to admit that knowing a bunch of people are listening to this, knowing that that is embarrassing?

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  Because I'm like, man, I, yeah, so I think that's a genuine question. Like, how are you able to do that? Because again, or is what you're saying is like, I can say that, but there's layers of it that are much deeper than that, and I won't take you there.

• 1:02:56Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's, um, I have no problem admitting that because I get judged all the time. I mean, I get so much hate. So it's just like, I'm going to get a little more hate? I don't even care. But the, what I struggle with is knowing that, talking about it, being honest. I don't know if I would do anything different.

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Cameron Hanes?

  I'm still that same psycho.

• 1:03:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Cameron Hanes?

  And like, I can say, yeah, that wasn't great. But if I was back in there, I can't tell you I'd do it any different. I'd be like, no, I'm, I still don't care about anything.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Cameron Hanes?

  That's where I'm like, I'm just not even, I shouldn't even go to church. Is what it feels like. Cause it's like, that's what, I just know how I still am. And anyway.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, so you're communicating that at, at the core, there's still so much of the selfishness. And so to, it, it would feel like I'm just, that I'm not genuine and that some people aren't genuine to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, I have, have this whole life. But, but you're saying if I could run it back, there's a good chance that I would do it all over again. And, and do it the same.

• 1:04:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And that doesn't feel right.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Do you think you would? I'm like, like, do you really think you're like, all right, I, I get to hit rewind, restart, run it back? Would, would I actually do that? Or would I sit there at the movie theaters? I, I, at this point, I'm just curious. What, would I sit there and watch what, whatever the movie is with my kids?

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Is it hard to say?

• 1:04:28Cameron Hanes?

  I just don't think I would.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:30Cameron Hanes?

  I just, I, I, cause I've just like, it's been 58 years now of just competition every day. Every day I have to win.

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Cameron Hanes?

  And whether it's a screwed up thing in my head, or if it's an actual race, or if it's whatever, I just can't turn it off.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Cameron Hanes?

  And then I'm not happy.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  What happens if you get hit by a car? I'm being serious.

• 1:04:54Cameron Hanes?

  I'm going to be so relieved. Swear to God, dude. Swear to God. I would love to get killed, hit by a car, because I'd be like, finally, relief. Finally, I can, you know, there's a quote in one of these books where it says, there's no rest for me in this life, perhaps in the next.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Cameron Hanes?

  So I just can't. So it's like, to me, getting hit, that'd be sick.

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, you kind of took a lot of my, took a lot of my ammunition away right there. Because I'm like, what happens if Cam gets hit by a car and he's in a wheelchair and he can no longer run at the pace he's running? Then, then, then who is that Cam sitting there in the wheelchair? And, yeah, I think that's a genuine question. Like, like, who, who is that Cam Haynes that's sitting there? That can't do anything? Because I've, I've, I've told people before, I'm like, man, our, our gospel's like a, a quadriplegic gospel. So much so that what I'm saying is that if, if you are a quadriplegic,

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  you can't do anything. Like, look at the criminal on the cross. Like, like, you can't do anything to save yourself, to prove yourself, to, to, to show, like, like, you might want to do something. Like, you can't even pick up your Bible. Like, someone have to hold it in front of you. And so, man, that's how amazing and scandalous the gospel is, is that, that the quadriplegic is never going to go on a mission trip. They're never going to be able to lift their Bible to, you know, and so, and,

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  yeah, and, and, and in a very real way, the criminal on the cross is a picture of that. It's like, man, the guy couldn't do anything is like the most vile criminal, other than look to Jesus and trust him. So I, I think it's a genuine question. Who is Cam Haynes if he's sitting in a wheelchair and can't run anymore? You say, thrilled, happy, and stuff like that. But I don't believe that. I think you're sitting there in, in the wheelchair. Well, I, one, I think you're gonna drive Tracy insane.

• 1:06:44Cameron Hanes?

  I don't want to be in a wheelchair, dude. I want to be dead. I was like, I, no.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's not my hypothetical. You can't just build off of it.

• 1:06:52Cameron Hanes?

  Freaking, let's get that, get that car going a little quicker or something. Let's end this shit. So anyway, this isn't about me. But hey, I was gonna ask you, what's the, what's the hard? So you say, I want to be the, the greatest pastor in the world. What, what does that look like? And what, like, what's the hardest part of that happening?

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Man, what does that look like?

• 1:07:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  You'll, you'll hear our shepherds, our pastors commonly say that our shepherds are gonna smell like sheep. So in other words, I believe that a good pastor smells like sheep. Mm hmm. He's not sitting in an ivory tower somewhere, but uh, we're pastors that are, when people are in the hospital, we're gonna be in the hospital praying with them. Uh, and, and so I think the reality is Cam, is that being a good pastor is incredibly not flashy. It's because no one ever talks, as they say, about the planes that touch ground or the trains that make it to the station. They only talked about the derailments and the crashes. Right. And so I think there's a lot of faithful, good pastors out there, but I don't think it's flashy. I think it's pretty boring in, in that sense, and I think that's a good thing.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  Uh, because again, as you, well, I'm not saying you do know, but it wrecks it. I think you've been in a church before where there's been a pastor that goes off and has an affair. I mean, that has a huge impact on, on a church and church family. Yeah. And so I would say, uh, what, what it looks like is Paul lays it out is fight the good fight of faith. I would say, keep placing my trust and faith in Jesus every moment of every day. I'm ultimately not defined also by being a pastor first and foremost. I'm a son of God who gets to pastor a church. I'm not defined by being a preacher. I, I mean, people give me feedback on sermon all the time, uh, you know, whether I want it or not. But, but if that ultimately defined me, then it would crush me if they're like, yeah, you're, you're, you're not my style. But, but it ultimately doesn't define me.

• 1:08:42Speaker 00

  And, and so I think a, a big part of that is, uh, is being, being faithful to do the really small things and do those well. And to fight the good fight of faith, keep being faithful. Uh, don't, I would say, guard my life, uh, guard the church's doctrine. So don't chase a bunch of just weird doctrines. And, and as, as you probably do know that there's been, there's a lot of weird beliefs and belief systems that people are running after and chasing and going down every rabbit hole there. And so I'd say that, that's a big portion is protect the message of the gospel, keep preaching it, keep teaching it, keep it central, but keep planting churches. I mean, that's what, this, this might not make sense to most people out there.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  I've, I've been asked by people from Eugene, they're like, why would you ever want to move to Roseburg? Mm hmm. Like, uh, that's, it's an awful place. And I said, you realize that people in Roseburg are saying, why would you ever want to be in Eugene? Yeah. That's an awful place, but I have a heart for rural Oregon. I want to see. You know these towns from being out in the woods, but I want to see churches in Drain, Oregon, in Elkton, Oregon. I want to see churches in Myrtle Creek. I want to see churches in Rice Hill and all these little, small, podunk towns that don't mean anything to anyone else. They mean something to me. So every time I'm driving through these towns, I'm praying for churches to be planted in healthy churches that preach and teach the gospel with real men that aren't afraid to be transparent, authentic, and real. They aren't afraid of their brokenness, that

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  are preaching and teaching God's Word faithfully and preaching and teaching the gospel faithfully. Like, I want to see Southwest Oregon just saturated with healthy churches. And so I think that's part of it. And I believe I, before we moved here, had that vision. I drew it out. It's like some weird type of vision. It was just like, I told my wife, I was like, I want to see healthy churches in all these towns, and I want to see them saturated. And I want to see the gospel transform men's life. I want to see husbands get saved, and I want to see families turned upside down. And I want to see, man, I would have loved to have seen that for my dad. I would have loved that. But I want to see that. I want to see, because I believe the gospel has such saving, transforming power, that because of that, then towns become transformed and communities grow in light of that. So I want to see that

• 1:10:52Speaker 00

  happen in Southwest Oregon, which, again, that sounds crazy to a lot of people because they're like, who cares about those towns?

• 1:10:59Cameron Hanes?

  I get that. So it's like, that just, that leads me to this question. You say to be the best pastor in the world. So there's some pastors or leaders of churches that would say, oh, that means a big facility, on TV, TV evangelist type thing, reaching millions, right? Because that seems like success, right?

• 1:11:23Cameron Hanes?

  But then on, so is that the goal? Or, but to me, what I hear is, you like the small-town environment. Is that, is, why is that? Is that because?

• 1:11:35Cameron Hanes?

  You feel safer there because that's you? Or you felt ignored as a young man and needed something like that?

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Man, you flipped the table on this therapy session. I like it. All right, keep going, keep going.

• 1:11:48Cameron Hanes?

  Um, because I do, you know, in some, some respects, like I, and I told you, I think Eugene needs you just as much as Roseburg, maybe more, probably, you know, we got a lot of fucking weird people here in Eugene that could use a masculine type, uh, child of God up there preaching every Sunday. But I'm not saying that the small towns don't need that because they do.

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Cameron Hanes?

  And because one thing that I've noticed, like with Jelly Roll and hanging around and going to some of these shows and like hearing, seeing his response to people, kind of like what you're talking about with Roseburg. It's like, you know, you said white trash or whatever. Maybe I have, I don't, I mean, but that's me essentially. And it's like, those are the forgotten people.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:34Cameron Hanes?

  The, the poor white people never get talked about.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:37Cameron Hanes?

  You know, it's always like the urban stuff or the, let's, you know, people coming from other countries for asylum, something like that. The poor white people? Good luck.

• 1:12:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and so.

• 1:12:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is, is there a more hated, uh, group of people than, than a blue collar, white male in today's society?

• 1:12:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, it's just like, so I get to me, that's, that makes what you want to do even more powerful. And that's cool. And I like it, even though I don't like you leaving here. But it's so, so tell me, how does, how do you get to become the best in the world? So it's not congregation size, it's not reaching millions. What is it?

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a good question. So I'll be honest here. It's to say, so you know this. Our church's mission statement is to make Jesus the hero.

• 1:13:26Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  About six months in.

• 1:13:30Speaker 00

  Sometimes people think there's a lot of thought and creativity put into like the name of the church and stuff like that. But I was filling out the form from the Secretary of State and my buddy was next to me, Brandon, and it's making you put in the name of your nonprofit. And I was like, we don't have a name. And he's like, what do you, what do you, what do you care about? And I was like, the gospel? He's like, what else? Community? He's like, all right, let's just say Gospel Community Church. And he's like, we'll come up with something cooler later. And so, but that's still, that's still the name. Six months into the church, someone's like, hey, it seems like whenever you preach, or we have a Bible study, it seems like the main goal is to make Jesus a hero. And I was like, there you go. The problem is, Cam, and I think this is what you're saying that you can relate to, is that I still want to be the hero, and I want the glory, and I want the fame. So even our mission statement, man, is something that I battle with. Because

• 1:14:12Speaker 00

  in coming on this podcast, whatever it is, there's a huge part of me that I want to try to take the attention, and I want to try to be the hero, and I want the glory. So that's something I wrestle with. And so there's, there's a part of me that wants that. Yeah. What you're describing. Like, I would want to, you know, I want the success. I want the, the fame. I want to-

• 1:14:32Cameron Hanes?

  You showed me that guy yesterday. Yeah. Joby. Yeah. Is that his name?

• 1:14:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:36Cameron Hanes?

  And like, he must reach a lot of people.

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think his church is like 20,000 people or something like that.

• 1:14:40Cameron Hanes?

  And I said, you have that same, because you are good, right? And it's like, I know we got to make Jesus, well, and Marcus came up with this, because it's like, you're so good at preaching. We were like, yeah, it's not about you, it's blah, blah, blah. You have these guest pastors out there, whatever, preachers, whatever it is. And, and Marcus said, instead of just make Jesus a hero, make Rick make Jesus a hero. That should, so I get that. The problem is, you're really good. And so-

• 1:15:09Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 1:15:10Cameron Hanes?

  Hearing that over and over, I don't care what, who you are, that's going to impact us as men.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:16Cameron Hanes?

  It's going to affect our ego.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:17Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So I get that. So, but the fact that you're conscious of it is a good step. But, um, yeah, it's just like, it's just weird, because we saw the guy yesterday with all the people, and he's like a badass, and he's just on fire up there for the gospel. And I can see you doing that, too, because you are so good. But yeah, I was just curious-

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  I gotta bulk up a little bit more, though.

• 1:15:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, that guy's jacked.

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  I might need a double a dose, so.

• 1:15:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going both cheeks.

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  Make a trip back to Tijuana.

• 1:15:47Cameron Hanes?

  But yeah, so I was just curious about what how success is defined for you to be the best.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's that's a living reality, something I I live with and that I ask people pray for. I'm like, pray for me in this because those are things where, man, I feel disingenuine at times because I'm like, this is the church's mission statement. And I'm up there at the same time, like, man, I'm wanting that. But but also, there's a greater desire in me too, or there's this other desire. John the Baptist said that his mission was to decrease so that Christ would increase. In other words, he was okay being in the shadows so that Christ would be in the spotlight. That's in me too. And so both of those things, as the Apostle Paul says, like, both of these things are like waging war inside of him, you know, and and, yeah. So that's a reality.

• 1:16:32Speaker 00

  But ultimately, I trust that the Spirit is going to continue to refine and sanctify those desires so that my desire is ultimately for Christ to be in the spotlight. But that's that's a living reality. But what does that look like practically? It it's I don't want to build an empire. I want to I think what success looks like for me, and I think we should define success whenever we're planting churches, I think it's a healthy thing to do, is I think what success looks like is, is your church actually living out its core values? And so one of our core values is transparency. Do people feel safe within the within your church to actually confess their sins and bring forth their brokenness? And I would say, man, that's a sign of success.

• 1:17:17Speaker 00

  If someone knows they're hidden in Christ and they don't have to protect their image anymore, but that Christ has come in and restored them, then, man, there's a lot of freedom to say, man, I'm hidden in Christ. I don't have to hide anymore. And so there's freedom to be transparent. So I would say success looks like that. It looks like we're planting churches, that keep planting churches, that keep multiplying churches. And that's why we're a part of a church planting network called Acts 29 that exists that plant churches like that. But I think success looks like.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  Looking and saying, man, we got more and more pastors that are now pastoring churches in these town, in this town, in this town, and there's more and more men, Cam, I would say, because I would say our, our culture is pretty gritty.

• 1:18:03Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:04Speaker 00

  And I'm thankful for that. I would say, bunch of crazies that are crazy about Jesus. And, and, and, uh, and I was once told that, that I take the gospel serious, but not myself. And I was, I thought that was a great compliment.

• 1:18:16Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:17Speaker 00

  And so that, that'd be my hope is that in these small, small ruled gritty lumber towns, that there's places where those rough neck, rough around the edges guys go, yeah.

• 1:18:29Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  I, I want to get, I want to get plugged in.

• 1:18:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:33Speaker 00

  I want to hear about Jesus. And Will Primos, their company, the tagline was, uh, speak the language.

• 1:18:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 00

  I feel like I speak the language.

• 1:18:40Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  I feel like I speak the language of small town. It's a lot of Christless conservatism. In other words, they have all the conservative values without Jesus in them.

• 1:18:48Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:18:48Speaker 00

  So I feel like I understand that culture. I speak that language. It's a lot of good old boyism and, and legalism of like, hey, man, look, I'm working hard. I'm, I'm putting in the work. I'm, I'm trying my best and, and therefore that proves me to be a good person, you know, like that, that's the common message. And so, I mean, I know how to speak to that. And so my heart is for those guys that are just rough and tough and gritty and think there's no way I'm ever stepping foot inside of a church.

• 1:19:13Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  My heart is for those guys.

• 1:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:19:16Cameron Hanes?

  I, yeah. It makes me think of Powers, Oregon, where I go and Elkhorn out kind of over towards Coos Bay, just a tiny little.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Cameron Hanes?

  And like, I could have met, I just think about a church there for all those guys. They'll work in the woods, you know, they're tough, you know, driving truck or setting chokers or timber followers or in a mill somewhere. Those guys.

• 1:19:35Speaker 00

  Totally.

• 1:19:35Cameron Hanes?

  I let those, because that was who I was going to be. You know what I mean?

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:19:40Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, so yeah, I totally get that. It's, um.

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  When you're headed there, you drive through Camas Valley.

• 1:19:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 00

  And even like those little towns like Camas Valley, I'm like, man.

• 1:19:48Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:19:49Speaker 00

  But like, yeah. So did you know that there's a, there's a Johnny Cash song about Roseburg?

• 1:19:53Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, no.

• 1:19:54Speaker 00

  It's called Lumberjack.

• 1:19:55Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, really?

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. It actually mentions, it's talking about Roseburg, but actually mentions Eugene in the song too. So, yeah.

• 1:20:00Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:20:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. But he, he's talking about just the, the burly, just, yeah, just rough around the edges type guys. And I'm like. Man, who's reaching, who's reaching those guys?

• 1:20:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  Because it goes back to, uh, to your best friend and, and, and his ministry with, you know, reaching bow hunters and stuff like that. It's like, who's reaching those guys?

• 1:20:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:20:22Speaker 00

  Because again, th- th- those guys are rough and tumble and they're lumberjacks.

• 1:20:28Cameron Hanes?

  They're not gonna, not gonna listen to anybody.

• 1:20:30Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:20:30Cameron Hanes?

  If you wear skinny jeans and you got whatever.

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  I was literally getting ready to say that. I was like, yeah, your, your, your vegan diet and skinny jeans. It's, it's gonna be real tough, man. You got, you got a lot working against you. And so, yeah, my heart is for those guys to say, man, I get it. I get you. Like, you know, so, yeah. And, and this is a place where you can come in and, uh, and you're gonna meet other, other men like you. So, yeah.

• 1:20:54Cameron Hanes?

  Who's the, who's the best preacher you've ever been around?

• 1:20:58Speaker 00

  Best preacher I've ever been around?

• 1:21:00Cameron Hanes?

  And why are they the best?

• 1:21:01Speaker 00

  That's a good question. My favorite preacher, by simply reading his sermons of all times, is a man named Charles Spurgeon, who's called the Prince of Preachers. Uh, but, but let's go more modern day. I would say guys that I enjoy listening to are guys that I try not to listen to. That's the problem. Because I don't want to mimic them.

• 1:21:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:23Speaker 00

  So, man, I, I, I think Matt Chandler is one of the best Bible preachers right now and he's, uh, he's in our network. I think Joby Martin, the, the gentleman I was showing you is another one. My favorite preacher is Tim Keller.

• 1:21:37Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  And, uh, yeah, in fact, he could explain the justification, sanctification thing much better than I do. He has a YouTube video called Death, Dead Orthodoxy, and I'd recommend everyone to listen to it. It's phenomenal. I enjoy listening to him because he's not charismatic and I'm drawn to that.

• 1:21:55Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:21:56Speaker 00

  He is, he's very heady, is very intellectual, but man, he knows how to get to Jesus in every passage, in every verse of the Bible. He's just, yeah. So, I mean, he preaches the gospel clearly and faithfully and knows how to, yeah, knows how to preach Christ from, from every book.

• 1:22:17Speaker 00

  And page of the Bible.

• 1:22:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Speaker 00

  And that's huge.

• 1:22:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 00

  Because you can moralize the entire Bible, which I think, I think Tracy said that's what she understood. So many of the Bible stories get moralized into where we become the hero when in all reality, they're actually pointing to Christ, the true and ultimate hero and stuff. So yeah, so he's a guy, I think he was phenomenal at that. But yeah, I try not to listen to a lot because I don't want, also, a lot of pastors are getting fired for plagiarism.

• 1:22:43Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah. I could, I could see like using chat GPT for sermons.

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  I had a guy tell me, he's like, yeah, I think that's fine. I was like, other than the Bible says that those who labor in preaching and teaching, you know, so.

• 1:22:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it goes against it for sure.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:00Cameron Hanes?

  I was curious, we talked about this a little earlier, but what's the best criticism you've ever received? So people love giving advice.

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Cameron Hanes?

  And like, I get advice all the time. I'm like, did I ask? I don't remember asking you. I don't actually care what you think. So, but sometimes you get some good, good criticism and you're like, maybe I can reflect and get better from that. So have you got good criticism before?

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  I have, man, and plenty of it. So, so let me roll out some of it for you.

• 1:23:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:33Speaker 00

  I mean, I have a great and close and honest relationship with, with one of my best friends in the world who were planning it, planning the church down there in Roseburg at, at his gym. Yeah. Cross at Roseburg. And so

• 1:23:48Speaker 00

  he is lined out for me. I mean, I remember we were sitting in a Chinese restaurant, but, but I mean, he lined out for me where, where he sees so many of my character flaws. At the same time, I was like, man, that stings.

• 1:24:04Cameron Hanes?

  Why, why was he doing this?

• 1:24:07Speaker 00

  But I don't know exactly, I don't remember why he was doing it. I think he was frustrated or pissed about something and, and, and it was probably warranted. But I also realized that it's those type of people that are willing to. To say difficult things to me, which I know that sounds crazy, because I've heard, I've had people say something to me. My other buddy, Adam, I'll share that one in a second, but, but with Dave saying all that stuff to me, I was like, man, that guy loves me enough to be that uncomfortable to say difficult things to me, knowing that it could risk the friendship. And so I think sometimes people don't say stuff because they love themselves and love you loving them more than they actually love you to tell you something that'd be really hard and difficult. Does that make sense?

• 1:24:49Speaker 00

  So I've had a guy, my, my, another buddy, Adam, to where I could hear his voice shaking. And he's like, hey, man, I feel like you're horrible at texting me back and calling me. I've called you multiple times. I'm putting a lot more effort into this friendship and stuff like that. And I would say, his statements were true. My wife would tell you, I mean, she told me yesterday or the day before, she's like, hey, look at your text messages. And she's like, have you responded to any? And she's like, it's like, look at all those, there's no response. And so I'm like, yeah, not great at that. But I remember listening to Adam tell me all that stuff. And I was like, hey, man, like, I can hear your voice, like, shaking. That tells me that you love and care a lot about me and our friendship, that you're willing to share something that hard with me. That I can see, man, you're clearly not chasing your own comfort, because you are not comfortable in sharing that with me right now, you know?

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  And so those are types of things I am often criticized on my communication. I am bad at communicating. A lot of stuff stays in my head that doesn't actually come out. And so, and then I will have expectations of, I think people should, my dad used to say- You should have known. Yeah. You know, you didn't say it. Yeah, like, my dad used to say, I can't look up your butt and read your mind. Yeah. And I think I want people to do that. So I'm criticized on that. Preaching, I mean, I've been criticized for, I think if you're faithfully preaching the gospel, Cam, I think people are gonna accuse you of what's called being an anti-nomian, saying that you're against God's law. I believe God's law is good. I believe it's holy. I believe it's a gift.

• 1:26:17Speaker 00

  It's just, it's not able to save us. Only God's saving grace can do that in the gospel. And, and, and so, but, but one of the things that whenever you're preaching that message and you're preaching grace that you're gonna be charged with is that, oh, this means you're an anti-nomian, that you hate God's law, that you don't believe people should, you know, live a moral life or follow God's commandments or anything like that. I'm like, That's, that's not consistent.

• 1:26:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 00

  To what I believe, but I believe we should preach grace heavy and hard. I also believe we should preach because of that, grow up hard too and, and, and live consistent too. But, uh, yeah, I, I think those are examples. So, yeah, I, I, I, I hope this. I hope that if someone's willing to sit down with me and tell me how saki I am, and they're willing to give me the bad news. I hope that they're willing to give me the good news too. And which is something that I believe our church family and Christian community should do. If, if I come to you and I'm like, hey, Cam, I think what you just did was screwed up and selfish and awful.

• 1:27:22Speaker 00

  And if, if I came to you or if I, if, if I went to a brother in Christ and said something like that, dude, that was, come on, man, that was so selfish. I would also want to remind him, hey, that's why Jesus went to the cross to pay for your selfishness. And now because of that, and because of your faith in Jesus, God doesn't see a selfish man. He actually looks at you and sees a perfectly selfless man because Christ was every moment of every day. Christ was selfless and that life now actually belongs to you in Christ. And so I'd want to make sure that if I'm going to give someone bad news, I'm also going to give them the good news if they're my brother in Christ.

• 1:27:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, I know. I get that.

• 1:28:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I think it's like, it's different too, when somebody's talking, like we get mad and we yell. Or you, you get drunk and you say crazy shit. There's always a little bit of truth in it, but when somebody's calm and just saying, hey, can I talk to you about something? Way different.

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:28:16Cameron Hanes?

  So if you have a buddy or like this criticism we're talking about, if it's said in anger, it's easy just to blow that off. It's like, ah, they're just pissed. Even the, the person saying it says, oh, sorry about that. I went overboard. But when you can sit down just as, and just say, hey, can we talk? That's, that's where it means something.

• 1:28:34Speaker 00

  Massive.

• 1:28:35Cameron Hanes?

  I was thinking too, like for you specifically, when you're saying all that, I was like, if like for, and I don't know when the discipline part or when that, but like for you, cause you are kind of like a bigger intimidating guy. I think it's better for not, for you to not do discipline type stuff, not do the correction stuff. Because you already, you know, then it's like double or whatever. It's like intimidation plus.

• 1:29:03Cameron Hanes?

  Criticism.

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:05Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:29:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:06Cameron Hanes?

  It's almost like in, we talk about these.

• 1:29:08Speaker 00

  I have to be mindful that, and my wife has told me that too. She's like, your voice, uh, your voice can intimidate people.

• 1:29:15Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:29:15Speaker 00

  Uh, and, uh, I mean, I get worked up, Cam. I get passionate. Uh, there's as many people, we, we've, uh, played this game within a church family of like trying to, uh, assign one word to people. And so the word that's been used for me oftentimes is passion, you know, uh, or, or passionate. And so, yeah, I have to be mindful of that. There's even times in grocery store where like, I'll go up behind someone like, hey, you know?

• 1:29:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:38Speaker 00

  So, so, yeah, I think, yeah, I have to be mindful of that. Keep going, sorry.

• 1:29:41Cameron Hanes?

  It's all good. Um, I was curious too. So what's, uh, this, I have these random Thasches.

• 1:29:47Speaker 00

  Oh, man, yeah.

• 1:29:48Cameron Hanes?

  Just crazy, but what is your favorite scripture right now?

• 1:29:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. My favorite scripture right now.

• 1:30:00Speaker 00

  I would say, man, I love Colossians three, three. Uh, that our life is, is hidden in Christ with God has been just massive. Not just now, but just for the last 20 years, growing more and more of what, uh, understanding what it is to be hidden in Christ. But, yeah, I'm, I'm also drawn to parables. Like I love Matthew 20, that, that parable pisses so many people off.

• 1:30:23Cameron Hanes?

  What is it?

• 1:30:24Speaker 00

  It's so that parable is about, uh, I mean, that parable blows up, uh, merit. And it shows that you're saved by grace and not merit. And so it's this whole parable that Jesus tells. And again, you have to realize when he's telling stuff like this, and when he's telling a story about the prodigal son, the Jewish leaders would be pissed off because they're like, yeah. Tim Keller wrote a book called Prodigal God, and that story is actually, it's, it's, it's great because what Jesus is doing is, is showing how prodigal or rogue God, because that's what the story is about, is this father who's, you know, giving this lavish grace that, that wouldn't be, anyways. I'm gonna go back to Matthew 20. Man, I'm like a retriever. If something's thrown out there, Cam, I'm gonna chase it. So, so I'll reel it back in.

• 1:31:04Cameron Hanes?

  Love it. Love it. That's why we're doing this.

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

  Matthew 20 is, there's this laborer and he goes out and he finds someone to come and, and work his vineyard. And he does that first thing in the morning. And then he comes out a few hours later and he gets someone else and he does that on until the evening, until basically right at dark. And then it's time to pay their wages. Well, he agreed to pay them a denarius, you know? And so he starts off by paying the person that he just hired right before dark who hardly worked at all. In fact, some people have really taken the time to break it down to show that like, he, he might have not even done anything by the time that he got out there, right? But he still got paid. And, and then the person that came in, you know, around noon got paid. And then what, what, what the people started to think, and this is where the frustration is, is they're like, okay, well, I'm getting ready to be paid.

• 1:31:51Speaker 00

  That guy didn't do anything. He got a denarius. That guy did more. He got a denarius. Since I came at the very start of the day, I'm probably gonna get a lot more.

• 1:32:00Cameron Hanes?

  Two, three.

• 1:32:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then he gives him a denarius. And he's using that story to show you're not saved based upon your merit, based upon your work, based upon your effort. You're saved based upon grace. And so even parables like that, that Jesus tells are just brilliant and just show his infinite wisdom. And so I, I love parables like that. I told you yesterday, one of my favorite verses that's like, even today I was out on a walk and I was just reminding myself of that. I believe, Lord, help me with my unbelief. Kind of faith, help me with the little faith I have.

• 1:32:33Cameron Hanes?

  That was the one I needed.

• 1:32:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I trust. Help me with my lack of trust. So that's, that's a huge one for me in this season of life. We're planting. Planting's expensive. It's scary. I'm stepping into the town that I also hurt people in and, and caused problems in and stuff like that. So, so yeah, there's a lot where I'm like, all right, Lord, I believe, help, help me with my unbelief. And so, yeah, I'm in, I'm in that season where that prayer is a living prayer in reality for me. So.

• 1:32:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. That's good.

• 1:32:57Speaker 00

  What about for you? You got some, you got some verses tattooed on your, on your body, don't you?

• 1:33:02Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I always, I had another question for you.

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:33:05Cameron Hanes?

  So tell me how this would go over. What if you go and set, set up this church down there in Roseburg and whatever you're, you're, you're plugging away? And then new guy comes in, your replacement up here, and this one just blows up. And it's like, you can't. Like can't even fit all the people in there.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  Okay, I didn't, I didn't know if you meant like implodes or.

• 1:33:27Cameron Hanes?

  No, it was crazy.

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  Blows up in the right way?

• 1:33:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  How would I respond to that?

• 1:33:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would.

• 1:33:35Cameron Hanes?

  Cause let me, let me, so you said you gotta preface this when you're talking to your buddy, you gotta say this is, you know, I have flaws too. So.

• 1:33:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:41Cameron Hanes?

  When I left my job, there's a little part of me thinking like, I hope it just turns into a shit show. And then, cause it kind of validates my work.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, you see, I was doing good here. That's, it was, people didn't realize how good I was.

• 1:33:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:57Cameron Hanes?

  That's my ego.

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:33:58Cameron Hanes?

  I really didn't want them to fail, but you sort of do sometime, a little bit.

• 1:34:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:04Cameron Hanes?

  So this is me. This is why I need to go to church.

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  I.

• 1:34:15Speaker 00

  I think, man, though it's hypothetical, I think I would genuinely be excited. Like, like I want this church family to thrive and grow and, and, and be healthy.

• 1:34:26Cameron Hanes?

  That's, you're saying exactly what you're supposed to say now.

• 1:34:30Speaker 00

  And, and I knew you would think that. But in all reality, if it doesn't, I think that also says something about my leadership too, that, that, that's terrifying to me. And so that can also be a reality and that, that I created, you know, it was a cult personality more than it was anything else. It was just.

• 1:34:47Cameron Hanes?

  That's true.

• 1:34:48Speaker 00

  There for me. And so, so I think.

• 1:34:50Cameron Hanes?

  The success of planting churches is when you're not there, they're still.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  I, I thought you were gonna say something like this, like, uh, one of our members asked, uh, you know, hey, you're taking the name down there to Roseburg, what if you get, become weird and woke? That, that's what was asked. And I was like.

• 1:35:05Cameron Hanes?

  Could happen.

• 1:35:06Speaker 00

  Well, I was like, well, what if that happens to you guys? The same question could be asked here, you know, and, and whatnot. But yeah, I, I am. Man, I'm hopeful that, that, that the church grows and thrives and is healthy and successful. So yeah, and I'm trying to like, like plummet the depths of my heart to be like, what I, here, here's the thing.

• 1:35:33Speaker 00

  I I I know how I'm wired and and so here's my problem. I'm wired to be a planter and start things. I don't think I'm good at all the fine tuning that the older a church gets. And the more nuanced things get and and the more administrative they are, that is just not. I love creating, I love building, I love pulling people together, I love starting, I love that stuff. So Paul says in first Corinthians three, he says, uh, you know, that I planted in Apollo's watered. I don't think I'm a water and I and I think the guy who comes in to lead for us needs to be really good at watering and and doing that stuff. And so, so, yeah, so I someone asked me, they're like, what are you gonna do in Roseburg in 10 years? You're gonna go plant another church or something? So, yeah.

• 1:36:18Cameron Hanes?

  That's what I was wondering too, because I am like that also where I'm I get the dopamine hit from the new challenge. But then

• 1:36:27Speaker 00

  Cause I get bored easy.

• 1:36:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, then once the new challenge is gone, then it's like, what? Like you said administrative, it's like just same old normal, this feels like regular life again.

• 1:36:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:36:36Cameron Hanes?

  I don't want regular life. I want the excitement of this challenge and this, you know, you said you're scared about it. It's gonna fail. Like that is cool. But like, I wonder if to to be the best pastors, you said your goal was, if you need to develop that other part too. You know what I mean? So you make the big splash, but then also like, how do we, how do we

• 1:36:58Cameron Hanes?

  continue to to build this?

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And and that's the tricky question is there's a way in God, there's a way in which God created us and he gave us our strengths. Do we spend more time developing the areas of our weakness? Or do we spend more time leaning into our strengths? Which is why some churches hire guys that are more of an executive pastor role, because they're really good at all the the nuts and bolts and stuff like that. I'm

• 1:37:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Speaker 00

  I'm not a nuts and bolts.

• 1:37:24Cameron Hanes?

  China shop.

• 1:37:27Speaker 00

  Not a nuts and bolts kinda guy.

• 1:37:29Cameron Hanes?

  I would, I didn't get to the, I had some questions for you. I didn't get to them.

• 1:37:32Speaker 00

  Oh, man. What'd you have?

• 1:37:34Cameron Hanes?

  Well, here's, you were known as a holy terror. What were you actually running from?

• 1:37:40Speaker 00

  That's good. That is good. I think I gave you quite a bit of what I was running from.

• 1:37:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:45Speaker 00

  My mom gave me that nickname, by the way. So that's why, yeah, that's why it's

• 1:37:48Cameron Hanes?

  It's a good one.

• 1:37:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:37:49Cameron Hanes?

  It's a good one.

• 1:37:50Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:37:52Cameron Hanes?

  What do you think people misunderstood about you back then?

• 1:37:56Speaker 00

  Man, what do, what do I think people misunderstood about me? I, here's, here's a big one is that I was a pretty sensitive kid growing up, like pretty, just, yeah, like pretty sensitive. And.

• 1:38:15Cameron Hanes?

  But acted tough, like.

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  Well, no, I, I, I think, I think part of that is.

• 1:38:19Cameron Hanes?

  Or when you were small, you were sensitive.

• 1:38:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:21Cameron Hanes?

  And not tough.

• 1:38:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And, and then, and then, yeah, like, like, like just so much of me is like raised by this ultimate man's man. And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sensitive.

• 1:38:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:31Speaker 00

  Like, like, I just remember seeing, like, I hate bullies to this day, but like when people are picked on and stuff like that, like, like, I just remember, like, it would make me sad and stuff like that. So I, I think part of it is that, you know, even the intimidating factor that, that I have from how I look. I think once people get to know me, like, there is, like, there is still a reality that I think, like, God created a guy who's still sensitive and, yeah, I don't know. That, that, that so much of me of what I was doing was trying to like respond to being who my dad wanted me to do and all that stuff. And, and to be clear.

• 1:39:06Cameron Hanes?

  Insecure a little bit.

• 1:39:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:08Cameron Hanes?

  You did the steroids to be the big, strong guy. So, yeah, I mean.

• 1:39:11Speaker 00

  I was a chameleon too. I think that's the hard thing is like, I would be whoever I needed to be in whatever group I was in in order to survive, including when I was around my dad, I wanted to be who, yeah, I think just like, like any son, it's like you're just longing for your father's approval and stuff like that. So, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't even know if that's a good answer, but I guess that's what I would say is, yeah, is that there was a whole lot of mess going on. And, man, I want to be careful what I say, and I've grown in this more, especially over the last couple of years, because there's a lot of good stuff that I learned from my dad.

• 1:39:53Speaker 00

  But I think the difficult thing was is that what you're describing was a living reality for me, and I would say especially from my mom, and that's who my heart breaks more for, is that we could put on the best facade, we could go to church and we could even go to church as a family. And my dad commanded respect, just his presence alone. But man, we're full of crap. I mean, just if someone could have looked on what was going on inside of the walls of the home and stuff like that, it was just, yeah. So I think, yeah, when you say imposter syndrome, I think for so long, I had an imposter syndrome.

• 1:40:37Speaker 00

  But I think also, I think my mom has said that she's like, I think our whole family was in survival mode.

• 1:40:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. I used to take pretty intense sleeping aids.

• 1:40:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:47Speaker 00

  Last week of my dad's life, it was pretty awesome. Got to spend some time with him, got to go in the room with him and asked my mom to leave. And I said, my dad was huge on eye contact. And so I said, hey, can I talk to you? And he's like, yeah, go ahead. And then I started to lay stuff out for him. I'm like, hey, this is what it was like. And he just looked away. And he looked away the entire conversation. And I said, but I want you to know, I forgive you. And I think you did the best you could. And then I left the room. I could see that there were tears in his eyes. He never said anything, but I left the room. It's pretty crazy. I've never taken sleeping medication, like prescription sleeping medication since that day. So, but yeah, man, there was just so...

• 1:41:28Cameron Hanes?

  Do you think so that that was a relief for you to be able to say that to him?

• 1:41:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:41:35Cameron Hanes?

  And that gave you peace?

• 1:41:36Speaker 00

  For so long, just so much bitterness and hostility and anger and...

• 1:41:40Cameron Hanes?

  Probably afraid. And like when he's in a hospital, but he's vulnerable.

• 1:41:43Speaker 00

  So vulnerable.

• 1:41:44Cameron Hanes?

  You feel like you can, okay, finally, I can say how I feel.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I told my wife, I'm like, man, like... Regardless of how much training you have and whatever you learn, like I was still terrified of my dad. You know, there's just like, man, there's just a deep fear there. But, uh, but yeah, I felt like, yeah, the power of true, truly of forgiveness and, and, uh, yeah, of what, what I would say is basically just holding glass or holding barbed wire for so long, hoping that it was going to somehow impact him or something like that. But it was just destroying me. And so, yeah. And, and so, but yeah, I would say,

• 1:42:24Speaker 00

  people probably didn't know the depths of what was going on inside of the home, you know, because I think.

• 1:42:28Cameron Hanes?

  That, that would be misunderstanding. Yeah, for sure. Was, was it cancer? What'd your dad?

• 1:42:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. And you would have never, so my dad retired, probably the hardest working guy I've ever known. Retired after 44 years with the railroad and then he got two jobs. He was working part-time for a butcher, just straight out for meat. And then he was working as a janitor for, for one of his close friends to clean the offices at night. So he was just a guy who couldn't sit still and.

• 1:42:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:54Cameron Hanes?

  It's got some positive attributes. I mean, got some negative too, but like, did, after that talk, did it ever come up again? Or how, how long was he alive?

• 1:43:03Speaker 00

  No, no, I remember.

• 1:43:07Speaker 00

  It, it never came up again.

• 1:43:11Speaker 00

  I got to take care of my dad the last week of his life, but by quite literally, you know, and, and you could just, I could see the humiliation in his face, which, which it does. It breaks my heart now because he's like, you know, he would say, he always called me my boy. He'd say, Nate did some crap, my boy. I got you sitting here giving me a sponge bath and stuff like that. He's like, this is what's waiting for, you know? And so it was just like, you know, it's like, man, but, but yeah, uh, I think there was, I, I think my dad, I think my dad, the one thing he said, which it still sticks out to me, he says, I don't think I know who I am, but I've always had this hard shell on the inside, but I don't know if that's consistent who I am on the inside. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like you just said, what this, how I felt for most of my childhood, but like all I've ever thought of you is like,

• 1:43:54Cameron Hanes?

  Hard.

• 1:43:55Speaker 00

  Hard. You don't cry. You don't show emotion. You, my dad's three favorite words in his life were suck it up. I was bit by a copperhead when I was 10 years old and he took me home and told me to suck it up. And my mom made him take, you'll have to ask my mom about that. My mom was like, take him to the hospital. Are you crazy? Yeah. Suck it up. Those were his words, man. And so, so, yeah, but I think it was, it was wild for me to hear him say that, like from, yeah, more or less like for the majority of my life. I don't think I've. Been the man that I actually am on the inside. I just know how to have this shell and this and that's what he's done. So yeah, so. Well, when he died, what was that like? And people ask like, if you had three wishes, what were they? I'd say that all my family, friends and loved ones are saved.

• 1:44:39Speaker 00

  That I'd be a billionaire. I'm going to be, you know, if. You will for sure. Yeah, yeah. And I'd like to have another day with my dad because my dad got me into hunting. Like my dad taught me about work. I think my dad taught me a lot. There's just a lot of conversations that I that I want to know more about my dad and where my dad was at and stuff like that. So.

• 1:45:00Speaker 00

  I try to answer questions for my dad because I was like, hey, if you were, you know, if this is like when he was dying, but I was like, if you die today. You stand before God in heavens. It's a famous question, you know, or classic question of, and God says, why should I let you in? Dad, what are you going to say? And I'm listening if people are going to answer in the first person and say, I, or if they're going to answer in second or third person. And so I wanted to just force this question to be and just be like, Dad, don't say anything. Just point to Jesus and say, he's. Yeah. He's the only reason I can come in, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like this is, this is what, this is what you'd want to do if this were to happen, you know, but my dad would profess to be a Christian.

• 1:45:38Speaker 00

  And we would profess to have been, you know, raised in somewhat of a Christian home. But I think my mom and. Loosely speaking. Yeah, there isn't a child who made it in our home. Outside of me past the age of 16 years old, like they ran away or left. It was just, I'll say. Yeah. It was tough. Yeah. Yeah. So tougher than what it was portrayed to be. And that's what's difficult. So, but. What do you mean tougher than? Yeah. Oh, so it didn't seem from the outside, didn't seem as bad as it probably was. I have, again, there's guys and people who have way harder lives than me. So I don't want to say I've had like the toughest life because there's aspects of my life that were good. I mean, my parents were married. That's.

• 1:46:22Speaker 00

  You know, like that's, that's, that's not a. Yeah, my dad wasn't around. Yeah. So like. At least your dad was there, right? Totally. And so there's aspects like that where I was like, man, and my dad worked hard. It's not like we were broke or poor or anything like my dad worked hard to do whatever he could to. To get us nice stuff. So it's not like those things were there. It's just like, yeah, there was a. Yeah, yeah, just a thi- this is what a Sunday morning face looks like and then this is what.

• 1:46:50Cameron Hanes?

  Was it like, didn't, I mean, nervous to go home?

• 1:46:55Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 1:46:57Cameron Hanes?

  Or for him to come home?

• 1:46:59Speaker 00

  Oh, man, Cam. And my mom would say the same thing is that that was just a common emotion whenever my dad was around. We, we would if, if whenever my dad was, uh, this was our habit and maybe you did this too, uh, with your mom or something like that. Uh, but whenever dad came home, we, we grabbed rakes, we grabbed whatever we could and we started moving around the house and acting like we were doing something. But my mom would do it too. And it was just like his presence is like no one's sitting down and my wife noticed even like when I was growing up that when, when my dad was around, I would start grabbing stuff and doing something. So it's like ingrained in there to like, don't sit around, don't be lazy.

• 1:47:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Speaker 00

  And all that. So, yeah, just, uh.

• 1:47:33Cameron Hanes?

  Have you ever seen the movie Tree of Life?

• 1:47:35Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:47:36Cameron Hanes?

  It's pretty good, but, uh, I always say that our house reminds me of that house in the movie, which maybe, but Brad Pitt's the dad. And he was really hard. And so like when he would go travel for work, it was just playtime, jumping on the mom and the kids, jumping on the furniture, on the bed, just having the best time. And then dad gets home, it's like, oh, God.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Cameron Hanes?

  So that's, that was like, they, I always say that's how it was for me. Like when I'd leave and then when I'd come home, it'd be like, oh, God, dad's home. So that's.

• 1:48:10Speaker 00

  My mom, my mom will kill me for saying this, uh, but, uh, you know, I was baptized Catholic. Uh, dad would have called himself a Southern Baptist. I, I grew up in Texas before Roseburg. We moved there when I was about 13. But, uh, man, it was funny because the, the Baptist pastor would come over to our house and my mom would run around. She'd be like, all right, all right, put the booze away. But like, it was like going around the house and like taking all the alcohol and like shoving it in the cabinet.

• 1:48:35Cameron Hanes?

  Catholics can drink.

• 1:48:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And shoving it and hiding it and stuff like that because the, the pastor is over. And so so much of that was like, and. Yeah, I remember my mom would say like whenever they would even sit down with the pastor or talk about whatever's going on in their marriage, that my dad was so intimidating that that he would say, you don't know me and I don't know you. And, uh, and, and so he would set the course of how those meetings are gonna go.

• 1:49:00Cameron Hanes?

  So watch it.

• 1:49:00Speaker 00

  And, and so essentially like I think people were terrified of him, you know? So no one's gonna say anything.

• 1:49:05Cameron Hanes?

  Just ground rules.

• 1:49:06Speaker 00

  To that, yeah, he's setting the ground rules up front and this is how the meeting's gonna go down. And so, yeah, so there was this whole facade of like, this is what it's, and I think that's why I had such a hard time with, for, for a while, I had such a hard time with Christians and, and, and whatnot, because I'm like, yeah, I just, I, I think it's, there's a lot of BS. And I'm like,

• 1:49:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:27Speaker 00

  And because we had behind that. And yeah, so.

• 1:49:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, that I get that.

• 1:49:31Speaker 00

  The facade.

• 1:49:32Cameron Hanes?

  I, I was like, you know, when a, when a man loses his dad, or a son loses his father, whatever it is, it's such a, I mean, you, you talking about that in the hospital, because my dad died of cancer also. And it's just like, it doesn't matter how old you are, or how, what you've went through, or how, it's like seeing your dad, you know, we always want to be strong. We always want to be, we set the standard. This is, watch me, this is the standard. And when that goes away, I just, I'll just, you know, I was very thankful that I had those moments, kind of like what you just described with your dad, with my dad, where he couldn't do anything, he was just laying in bed. And so we could just talk.

• 1:50:16Cameron Hanes?

  There was no other distraction. But I'll just never forget, you know, he died, I, I go over there, uh, he died at his house, you know, it was just hospice, hospice, but then there, you know, the coroner's there and he's like, oh man, I'm just by myself, uh, can you help me get him out to the car? And so, you know, carrying your dad in a body bag is like, I'll never forget, like, we're just, just like, you're like, hey, I need to help moving that bench out to the truck. Just like that. It was just so weird. And it was just like, I'm like, that's the last memory of my dad is just like, here we go, and get him in there. And it's like, I was grown, I was, you know, forty some years old, but.

• 1:51:03Cameron Hanes?

  You know, still now, if I think about it, or if I think about Roy too, it's like, man, we're not that fuck. I'm not that tough because it can still impact me.

• 1:51:15Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:51:16Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and it's like, we go through these lives.

• 1:51:18Speaker 00

  Did you get to have some of those like hard conversations with your dad or not?

• 1:51:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he was like, no, we did. And that's what I say I'm thankful for because we didn't have those moments because I'm busy. He's he was coaching at South forever. So he's always busy with the kids and, you know, so we just, when he's healthy, just like a lot of people, he just, you're just doing your life.

• 1:51:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:51:40Cameron Hanes?

  You know, so you, there is a blessing, even though it was a terrible, long, painful death. There, there was some positive to it, you know, with the having that time to be able to go over things and, you know, apologize or do whatever, just have a real talk. But, uh, yeah, it's like when you talk, I just, it just brought all that back when you were talking about your dad and, you know, it's, you know, and we talk about being leaders and being men and what that means and, and how it can impact others. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if we don't, guys don't talk about it enough, but anyway, just, I just wanted to just bring it up.

• 1:52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:52:22Cameron Hanes?

  Just because you reminded me of it.

• 1:52:24Speaker 00

  There's, there is this reality is like for so much of my life, all, all I wanted to do, and that's, I think a lot of boys are like that with their dad, but like, I just wanted to be like my dad.

• 1:52:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:33Speaker 00

  My dad literally took me hunting for the first time when I was five years old, you know, like that was awesome. Yeah, it's, it's, it's amazing. And, uh, yeah, he would tell people I shot the deer and that's not the case, but, but, but I got the credit and the glory for and stuff like that. And so, yeah, there is. And I think for so long though, that I was striving so hard to gain my father's approval, but to no avail, that I was just like, man, I'm exhausted, you know? And so, and then I would say that's when like, Just more disappointment and, and, and all that came. And I just think it finally took its soul. I think I've just finally started to quit because I was like, well, I think the other side of this to just make him give up on any, anything in me is just to quit.

• 1:53:11Cameron Hanes?

  When did he die?

• 1:53:13Speaker 00

  He died when, uh, my oldest daughter, she's 12. And so my wife was six. So he, he died 13 years ago.

• 1:53:21Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:53:22Cameron Hanes?

  How long have you been preaching?

• 1:53:24Speaker 00

  Uh, I've been preaching since I was, we planted here when I was 32, 10, 10 years ago. And I started pastoring at the church down in Reno, or, or I was a family pastor down there for a couple of years. And so that's where I first started preaching. And so my dad got to come and hear me preach.

• 1:53:40Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, he did. That's what I was going to say. It's like, has he seen your progression? Cause I mean, I, I would have, I would just thinking of that before I asked, it's like, he'd have to be proud of you.

• 1:53:51Speaker 00

  I think, I, I think if you ask, if you, if my dad was here today, he would tell you, my, my best friend, uh, uh, Dave, uh, my dad, so Dave would tell me, he was like, hey, man, I had lunch with your dad today. I was like, I had lunch with my dad. And he's like, yeah, he's like, uh, he, he's told me that he's just sorry and regretful for, for his actions and decisions and how he raised you and, and, and all that sort of stuff. And, and so, uh, and then he said that at our wedding too. So he had the microphone. I mean, most people couldn't understand him.

• 1:54:23Cameron Hanes?

  Who said that? Your friend or your dad?

• 1:54:25Speaker 00

  No, no, my dad did. So, so, so he grabbed, so I've never heard him say these things, but, but my buddy would tell me he had lunch with your dad and this is how he's feeling. And I was like, I was like, oh, but until our wedding, uh, he did it. Then he grabbed the microphone and, um, uh, and yeah, uh, again, my dad's, so he's raised in Arkansas. My wife could not understand this. I was always like interpreting, you know? And so, uh, but most people couldn't understand a lot of what he said. But at the end of what, everything he did say, and that's how I know, I'm like, man, yeah, he, he was proud of me is that, uh, he said, uh, I'll tell you one thing for certain is that he said that boy right there is the finest boy in the United States of America. And that was like the only thing that people could understand. So something, someone, someone made me a shirt that says finest boy in the United States of America.

• 1:55:09Cameron Hanes?

  Title.

• 1:55:10Speaker 00

  That title belongs to me, man. No one else. I mean, you can go for.

• 1:55:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, put on a belt.

• 1:55:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, second place out there for someone, but yeah, but, but yeah. So, so all that to say is like, so he during you, during that speech, he said like, I'm sorry for not being around. I'm sorry for how hard it was. I'm sorry for these types of things, which was hard for me in that setting because I was like, man, I it was awkward, you know, and then stuff like that. Uh, but I feel bad because someone asked me why I never went up to him and hugged him afterwards. And I just think, I don't think I was ready to hear it. I don't think my heart was there, so.

• 1:55:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I think it kinda like you went through a lot of pain for a lot of years and hugging him probably to let him off the hook. And you still felt some of that probably.

• 1:55:50Speaker 00

  A lot of that, man.

• 1:55:51Cameron Hanes?

  Like, yeah, because like if I that was me, I'd be like, keep apologizing. You know what I mean? Because we're so, we can be so vengeful.

• 1:56:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:06Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and so maybe it was that, maybe you had been in pain so long that you were quite ready to, to let him off the hook.

• 1:56:13Speaker 00

  When I first went through pastoral candidacy and all that stuff, and I was interviewed by other pastors, they were like, dude, you need counseling.

• 1:56:19Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  And I was like, counseling's for weird, weird people. I don't need counseling.

• 1:56:25Speaker 00

  I'm like, that's not for me. You guys probably need counseling for saying that, you know?

• 1:56:29Cameron Hanes?

  I definitely need counseling, but I definitely won't go.

• 1:56:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:36Cameron Hanes?

  Did you know in Roseburg, remember those, did you ever know that, uh, me and Ted Newjoint went down and killed, shot those goats up on the cliffs before?

• 1:56:43Speaker 00

  No, I think they're still looking for the, for the suspects who did that.

• 1:56:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. No, but you know, did you ever see those goats up there?

• 1:56:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did you know that people would paint those at, uh, at, at times like, uh,

• 1:56:54Cameron Hanes?

  Like a paint ball gun?

• 1:56:55Speaker 00

  No, they like for St. Patty's Day, like they would grab one of the goats and paint it green and stuff like that. Yeah.

• 1:57:00Cameron Hanes?

  Well, we painted them red. We could run an arrow through them. But no, they must've went over the hill. And then whoever owned that property back there, like, because they're feral, you know, people don't want goats. They, they weren't doing anything other than, I don't know what they do. But, uh, so we had this, there's a guy that worked at the mill down there. I think his name was Jeff. I wish I could remember his last name. I got a picture of him. You might know him, but this is, he's probably way older than, than you, but, uh, he worked at Roseburg, whatever that mill was. Um, and so Ted Newjoint was playing a concert here and me and Wayne were together. It was like, hey, So we asked him, hey, you want to go on a bow hunt before his concert with the damn Yankees is

• 1:57:42Cameron Hanes?

  over here at the hole center. It's like, hey, we gotta can go kill these goats down in Roseburg. He's like, yeah, let's do it. So we went down there and just killed the shit out of

• 1:57:50Speaker 00

  Is that, is that legal?

• 1:57:51Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 1:57:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that mountain's called Mount Nevo.

• 1:57:54Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's legal because they're not like, they're not

• 1:57:58Speaker 00

  I'm wondering because I'll explain to you, have you ever heard of the organization called TIP? Turning poachers?

• 1:58:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 00

  We're fundraising right now. I'm in for a church.

• 1:58:06Cameron Hanes?

  Well, this is thirty six years ago. So I don't know what the statute's limitations are on

• 1:58:12Speaker 00

  I'll squeal so quick, man.

• 1:58:15Cameron Hanes?

  Hey, yeah, we have to start two churches.

• 1:58:17Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:58:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, we hit

• 1:58:19Speaker 00

  You guys know, you guys been wondering what happened to those goats?

• 1:58:22Cameron Hanes?

  We hit a nest egg with our donations here.

• 1:58:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Gonna have all that cut it, cut out.

• 1:58:28Cameron Hanes?

  Leave it. I don't give a shit. I used to be so nervous about making a mistake hunting because you make, you make one, like even just innocent mistake, like when you're, like, if this is your job, it's over. Now, I don't even, I mean, I'm not going to ever poach anything, but I don't, I don't worry. It's like, cancel me. I don't give a shit.

• 1:58:47Speaker 00

  My mom's been worried about stuff that I share because we used to call in pizza to other people's houses and then we would jack it from the pizza guy.

• 1:58:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Speaker 00

  And then so I shared that and she's like, hey, I don't know what the statute limitations is on that sort of stuff. But yeah, so.

• 1:59:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Anyway, I think we're good on the goats. I don't know about the pizza thing. I think that's longer.

• 1:59:07Speaker 00

  Uh, you mean as far as prison time?

• 1:59:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, robbing a pizza guy?

• 1:59:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:59:12Cameron Hanes?

  Of pizza? I think that's like thirty years.

• 1:59:15Speaker 00

  I mean, you're just snagging the bag from him and then running, you know?

• 1:59:19Cameron Hanes?

  It's not that serious.

• 1:59:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

• 1:59:24Cameron Hanes?

  Good shit.

• 1:59:25Speaker 00

  Kids have to survive.

• 1:59:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Hey, this has been a awesome conversation, dude. I'm so, I mean, I, I'm pumped that we're able to do this bow thing, help out the church, but mostly I just want you to succeed. I want you to be

• 1:59:38Speaker 00

  Thanks, man.

• 1:59:39Cameron Hanes?

  The best in the world. That's your goal. I wanted, I want you to impact all these small communities that need Jesus and need to hear the good word. I want all this to happen. So, I haven't, you know, finding a good church and a good leader of the church is difficult. And we've been to a lot of churches around here. So when we went to yours, it was like, it was like, You know, Trace told me that time after the breakfast or whatever, because I didn't really know you. She's like, oh yeah, you'll like him. He's, you know, he's like, like,

• 2:00:11Speaker 00

  He's not vegan?

• 2:00:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, he's like, what? She's like, I think she just said, you'll like him. And I'm like, and she was right. So it's, it's hard. So it sucks that I, I hate that you're leaving. I, there's some great men at the church, though. And, you know,

• 2:00:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:26Cameron Hanes?

  I, I love Chad. I love, he's a good guy. I love Adam, great guy.

• 2:00:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:00:31Cameron Hanes?

  Um, DJ, there's all sorts of like, just

• 2:00:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:00:34Cameron Hanes?

  cool people. And, you know, Cam goes there. Of course, my son goes there. You know, my wife's sister. It's, it's, I really look forward to it.

• 2:00:44Speaker 00

  Did you ever get to hear DJ and Renee's story?

• 2:00:46Cameron Hanes?

  And I've never looked forward to church.

• 2:00:50Speaker 00

  Because at some point, you gotta hear that story. So

• 2:00:52Cameron Hanes?

  No, I haven't.

• 2:00:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. They planted the church with us, man. And it was like, uh, uh, and I'll share it. They've shared it publicly, but it was, uh, he was having a long, uh, long-term affair. And, uh, so yeah, the fact that DJ is a Christian, the fact that DJ is a pastor, the fact that DJ loves theology and their whole marriage, man, is like, is like a picture of redemption. It's incredible. So yeah.

• 2:01:16Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 2:01:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:17Cameron Hanes?

  Well, there's a lot of good examples of doing life the right way with Jesus there at, at your church. So, yeah, I'm very thankful, thankful for your friendship, thankful for this opportunity to sit down and talk. And, uh, yeah, it means a lot. Thank you, Rick.

• 2:01:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, likewise.

• 2:01:35Cameron Hanes?

  Appreciate it, brother. All right, guys. Keep hammering.