#388: Lisa Ling — Exploring Subcultures, Learning to Feel, and Changing Perception

"It requires time and energy to get invested in other people's stories, but I do in my heart of hearts believe that you emerge a better and smarter human as a result of taking that time." — Lisa Ling Lisa Ling (@lisaling https://twitter.com/lisaling) is the host and executive producer of the CNN Original Series This Is Life with Lisa Ling http://www.cnn.com/thisislife. It returns for its sixth season on Sunday, September 29 at 10 p.m. ET. In each episode, Lisa immerses herself in communities across America giving viewers an inside look at some of the most unconventional segments of society. In 2017, the series won a Gracie Award. Lisa is also host of the CNN Digital series This Is Sex with Lisa Ling https://money.cnn.com/this-is-sex-with-lisa-ling/, which explores the taboos around sex in America and This Is Birth with Lisa Ling https://money.cnn.com/this-is-birth-with-lisa-ling/, which explores how healthcare legislation, income inequality and cultural shifts shape how people have children in America. Before coming to CNN, Lisa was a field correspondent for The Oprah Winfrey Show and contributor to ABC News' Nightline and National Geographic's Explorer. She has reported from dozens of countries, covering stories about gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, among other issues that are too often ignored. Lisa got her start in journalism as a correspondent for Channel One News where she covered the civil war in Afghanistan at 21 years of age. She later went on to become a co-host of ABC Daytime's hit show The View, which won its first daytime Emmy during her time at the show. Lisa has also served as a special correspondent for CNN's Planet in Peril series and is a contributing editor for USA Today's USA Weekend magazine. In 2011, her acclaimed documentary journalism series Our America with Lisa Ling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_America_with_Lisa_Ling began airing on OWN. Lisa is the co-author of Mother, Daughter, Sister, Bride: Rituals of Womanhood https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Daughter-Sister-Bride-Womanhood/dp/0792241843/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Mother,+Daughter,+Sister,+Bride:+Rituals+of+Womanhood&qid=1569448660&s=books&sr=1-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=8f827bacb828f4bf90ae67674f61b160&language=en_US and Somewhere Inside: One Sister's Captivity in North Korea and the Other's Fight to Bring Her Home https://www.amazon.com/Somewhere-Inside-Sisters-Captivity-Others/dp/0062000683/ref=as_li_ss_tl?keywords=Somewhere+Inside:+One+Sister, which she penned with her sister Laura. In 2014, President Obama named Lisa to the Commission on White House Fellows. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN http://www.expressvpn.com/tim. ExpressVPN http://www.expressvpn.com/tim is an app you run on your computer or mobile device that easily secures your Internet connection, hides your public IP address, and lets you bypass regional restrictions on content. ExpressVPN http://www.expressvpn.com/tim is consistently rated the fastest VPN service on the market, and it's incredibly simple to use. Just download the app, tap one button, and you're connected to a secure VPN server. Visit my special link ExpressVPN.com/TIM http://www.expressvpn.com/tim, and you'll get an extra three months of ExpressVPN protection for free! This podcast is also brought to you by the Wondery network's Business Wars http://wondery.fm/tim. Hosted by David D. Brown, former anchor of the Peabody award-winning public radio business program Marketplace, Business Wars http://wondery.fm/tim shares the untold and very real stories of what goes on behind the scenes with the leaders, investors, and executives that take businesses either to new heights or utter ruin. I suggest starting with the latest series, “WWF vs WCW http://wondery.fm/tim.” It’s a pretty epic one filled with all your colorful cast of wrestling characters—Hulk Hogan, Stone Cold Steve Austin, and others. You can search for Business Wars http://wondery.fm/tim on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast provider, or you can just go directly to wondery.fm/tim http://wondery.fm/tim to start listening right now. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. I've been using ExpressVPN for a few weeks now, and I find it to be a very reliable way, and very fast way, to make sure that my data are secure and encrypted without slowing down my internet speed whatsoever. It's very easy to forget that I even have it on. But first, why should you care about encrypting data at all? And rule number one, or reason number one, I should say, is it's often quite easy for a hacker to bypass Wi-Fi security and steal your information. And I've seen this demonstrated by friends of mine who know how to do this, and it's terrifying. They can exploit flaws like Krack and many others. If you're interested in checking that out, you can Google "Krack", with a K, K-R-A-C-K.

• 1:09Tim Ferriss?

  If you ever use public Wi-Fi at, say, a hotel or a coffee shop, where I often do work, and where many of you, my listeners, no doubt, do work, you're often sending data over an open network, meaning no encryption whatsoever. One way to ensure that all of your data are encrypted and can't be easily read by hackers is by using ExpressVPN. All you need to do is download the ExpressVPN app on your computer or smartphone, and then use the internet, the web, just as you normally would. You click one button in the ExpressVPN app to secure 100% of your network data. ExpressVPN is also recommended as the number-one VPN provider by review sites like TechRadar and CNET. ExpressVPN is a company that takes privacy and security to the next level.

• 1:54Tim Ferriss?

  They invented a technology called Trusted Server to ensure that no data logs are written to a server's hard drive, even by accident. Trusted Server, all one word, was recently audited by PWC, this price Waterhouse Coopers, to confirm how its technology protects your privacy.

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  If you want one of the best solutions in online security and privacy protection, head over to expressvpn.com/tim for an exclusive deal. ExpressVPN is offering three extra months free with a one-year package to all of my listeners who visit expressvpn.com/tim. Protect your internet today with the VPN I use to keep my data safe. Go to expressvpn.com/tim to get started. This episode is brought to you by Business Wars. What's that? It's a podcast. People always ask me what podcast I listen to, and the truth is, I don't listen to that many, just a handful, because most of my bandwidth is taken up with producing my own podcast.

• 2:53Tim Ferriss?

  One exception, in other words, one that makes the cut, is Business Wars from the podcast network Wondery. Of course, human history has thousands upon thousands of epic wars, and that has existed forever, but some notable wars are waged between businesses, whether between gigantic corporations or between tiny, tiny startups and large incumbents, David and Goliath situations. And Business Wars, which I've been listening to, just listened to it this morning, in fact, on my ride to downtown Austin, takes you right into the middle of these battles. Sometimes, the prize for these competitors is your wallet or your attention, sometimes it's just the fun of beating the other guy.

• 3:34Tim Ferriss?

  The outcomes of these battles shape how we live, what we buy, and often, what we think. I've listened to previous episodes and previous seasons. So for instance, I have listened to Netflix versus Blockbuster, it was amazing. Nike versus Adidas, also incredible. But there are also smaller businesses and many different types of folks profiled. The sound design is incredible, didn't think it would matter to me, but it really does. And the newest season, which I've been listening to, is about the WWE's, that's the World Wrestling Entertainment's Long Road to Success in Battles with the WCW. And just as one surprise, did you know that the World Wrestling Federation-

• 4:20Tim Ferriss?

  Now the WWE started as just one of 30 regional wrestling associations. And the first episode, so this is WWF versus WCW, Titan Rising, and a lot of strategy comes out of this. A lot can be learned about how to do battle and business. But here's the description. It's the early 1980s and there's peace in the wrestling business. For years, regional wrestling companies have maintained order by sticking to their own slices of US and Canadian territory, but all that's about to change. Vince McMahon has just taken over the WWF and he wants war. He's on a mission to crush all opposition and establish the WWF as the only wrestling game in town. But his assault on the wrestling status quo

• 5:00Tim Ferriss?

  will also make him a powerful enemy. Cable TV mogul Ted Turner. I had no idea about this backstory. And it's great. So definitely check it out. It's hosted by David Brown, a former anchor of Marketplace, who's really fantastic. So David, if you're listening, nicely done. Might ping you about future audiobooks. And it is an immersive sound design experience. You'll see what I mean when you check it out. That shares the untold and very real stories of what went on behind the scenes with, now broadly speaking, the leaders, executives, and investors, and what led them to new heights, or to ruin, or sometimes somewhere in between. You can find Business Wars on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're

• 5:40Tim Ferriss?

  listening to this episode right now, or head to wondery.fm/tim. That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y. dot FM slash Tim. T-I-M. That's where you can find Business Wars. It's a great show. I suggest, starting with the latest series, it's really good, even if you don't care about wrestling whatsoever. I mean, as a child of the 80s, it was always somewhere in the culture for me. But it's great also as a sort of business strategy tactic art of war type of discussion. Latest series, WWF versus WCW. It's a pretty epic one, filled with all the colorful cast of characters you would expect. Hulk Hogan, there's some

• 6:19Tim Ferriss?

  amazing archival audio of TV shows that Hulk Hogan appeared on, actually choked one anchor unconscious accidentally. It's a pretty fucking crazy story. Pardon my French. Stone Cold Steve Austin, and many others. So check it out. wondery.fm/tim.

• 6:39Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct, at least attempt to deconstruct, through interviewing world-class performers, their habits, routines, lessons learned, et cetera. And my guest today is none other than Lisa Ling. Who is Lisa Ling? Award-winning journalist Lisa Ling is the host and executive producer of the CNN original series This is Life with Lisa Ling, which is currently in its sixth season. And you can find that, at least this season, premiering on September 29th, that is a Sunday, at 10:00 PM Eastern and Pacific. This is life. In each episode, Ling immerses herself in communities across America, giving viewers an inside look at some of the most unconventional segments of society.

• 7:24Tim Ferriss?

  In 2017, the series won a Gracie Award. Ling is also host of the CNN digital series This is Sex with Lisa Ling, which explores the taboos around sex in America, and This is Birth with Lisa Ling, which explores how healthcare legislation, income equality, and cultural shifts shape how people have children in America. She has a very illustrious career. We're going to talk about it in the course of our conversation. But suffice to say, from The Oprah Winfrey Show to Nightline to National Geographic's Explorer, she's reported from dozens of countries, covering stories about all manner of things, including many topics that are neglected or ignored in mainstream media: gang rape in the Congo, bride-burning in India, and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, just as a few examples.

• 8:08Tim Ferriss?

  And we talk about the sort of emotional toll that that can take, and many of the complexities of covering some of these extremely difficult topics. Ling got her start in journalism as a correspondent for Channel 1 News, where she covered the civil war in Afghanistan at 21 years of age, another experience we will talk about. She later went on to become a co-host of ABC's daytime hit show The View, which won its first daytime Emmy during her time at the show. She also served as a special correspondent for CNN's Planet in Peril series, and is a contributing editor for USA Today's USA Weekend Magazine. In 2011, her acclaimed documentary journalism series, Our America, with Lisa Ling. began airing on OWN. She's also an author. She has co-authored Mother, Daughter,

• 8:52Tim Ferriss?

  Sister Bride: Rituals of Womanhood, and Somewhere Inside: One Sister's Captivity in North America and the Others' Fight to Bring Her Home, which she penned with her sister Laura. In 2014, President Obama named Ling to the Commission on White House Fellows. You can find her on Twitter @LisaLing, on Facebook, facebook.com/Ling. And without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Lisa Ling. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Lisa, welcome to the show.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 9:27Tim Ferriss?

  And this has been in the works for a while, so I'm very pleased to finally be having this conversation. And we have a lot to cover, or certainly many questions that I would love to ask. So I'll start with age 21 Afghanistan. Was that your first time in Afghanistan?

• 9:47Speaker 03

  That definitely was. Yeah, I was 21, and never in my wildest dreams did I ever think that I would go to a place like Afghanistan at that age or ever. But it was certainly, as you can probably imagine, one of the most eye-opening things that I've ever experienced to this day.

• 10:05Tim Ferriss?

  And did you, at, say, the end of high school, think that that type of correspondent work is what you would be doing? Or did you have other thoughts in your mind for what you were going to be post-graduation?

• 10:20Speaker 03

  You know, when I was a kid, we didn't grow up with a lot of money. And I've always been an insatiably curious person, even as a young, you know, kid. But I really didn't have the opportunity to travel that much. And so, when I was 18, I was hired to report for a show called Channel 1 News, which was a show that was seen in schools across the country. In fact, Anderson Cooper was one of my colleagues. And they sent us off into the world to cover far-flung stories in distant locations. And

• 10:57Speaker 03

  One day, there was talk amongst some of the executives about sending a correspondent to cover the civil war in a country that, at the time, I couldn't even identify on a map, and it was Afghanistan. And I agreed to go because we'd be going in with the Red Cross, and so the likelihood of something happening while with the Red Cross would be far less than had I not gone in with them. So I agreed, and from the moment I set foot in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, I just, you know, realized I was very, very, very far from home.

• 11:31Tim Ferriss?

  What was, say, the first forty-eight or seventy-two hours of that experience like for you? I mean, as a twenty-one-year-old, you're still very malleable. I mean, your personality has certainly developed to some extent, but at that early kind of nascent point in your professional life, what were the first few days there like for you?

• 11:55Speaker 03

  Well, I had never, I'd barely traveled by the time I was twenty-one, and so, as cliché as this sounds, I felt like I was on another planet. Afghanistan, at the time, had, I mean, it was really like a country that had been just completely destroyed. It was in rubble, really. There were bullet holes and craters everywhere. Not a single wall stood that wasn't riddled with bullet holes, because when I was there in the early nineties, it was in the midst of a civil war. But before that, for about a decade, it was the scene of a war between Afghanistan and

• 12:40Speaker 03

  the Soviet Union, during which time my country, the United States, pumped billions of dollars worth of weaponry into the hands of the Afghans to fight our then-enemy, the Soviet Union. And so, here I was. You know, in a place that my country had a major, major role in. Um, it had a role in everything that I was seeing around me. Uh, so many of the young boys that I was looking at were carrying American-made weapons because they were paid for by the United States. But yet, I knew that back home, uh, no one had any clue that this scene existed in the world. So it was just, it was just surreal.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  I mean, I kept closing my eyes and opening my eyes and just going, where the fuck am I and how did I end up here? I mean, honestly, I, because it was just, you know, the furthest place on earth that I could have ever imagined.

• 13:36Tim Ferriss?

  You have since covered so many different topics, subcultures, problems and more. I mean, the Venn diagram, if I were to try to draw it out, would be really remarkable. And the question that has come to my mind so many times, and this is true also after spending time with people like Sebastian Younger, for instance. How have you handled, after covering, say, gang rape in the Congo, bride burning in India and so on, the emotional toll of some of these subjects?

• 14:16Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I mean, are there any stories that you can share about contending with that? Because I would have to imagine that it hasn't all been easy to digest.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I definitely have been witness to some of the worst aspects of humanity. I mean, covering a story, uh, about gang rape in the Congo, um, what you mentioned, covering stories about bride burning in India, um, stories about child trafficking, um, and, and just, um, just really devastating and horrifying.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Um, aspects of humanity. Uh, and, and I, I don't always handle it well. You know, I, I am lucky that I'm not out there on my own covering these kinds of stories. I'm always with a team. And when we are out in the field, we are truly living the story. We, every, you know, every second of the day is consumed by the story. And I meet people and people share with me on so many occasions, things that they haven't even shared with their closest friends or family members. And so as a result, you can't help but build a bond and develop a relationship with these people. And I try to give everyone that I meet my cellphone or that I, that I profile my cellphone

• 15:35Speaker 03

  because again, like they've just shared, you know, the depths of their heart with me. I would be remiss if I were to just say, okay, thanks for sharing. Bye, you know, like I, we, we just shared something really powerful. Um, and so staying in touch with people has really helped me. I mean, I've gotten, you know, I'm fairly decent at compartmentalizing. Like, you know, my, my work is my work and I'm deeply, deeply passionate about it. Um, but it sort of exists for me in one part of my heart and my brain. And then my family and my life are another part. Do they, uh, do they, do, uh, do they ever get fused? Absolutely all the time.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  And, you know, my, my husband, my family, they know that sometimes I just need some space to just decompress and process. But what keeps me going honestly is just knowing that bringing a lot of these stories to light will raise consciousness, um, among, you know, ordinary people who may feel compelled to do something about it or just become more aware of these issues on their own.

• 16:45Tim Ferriss?

  So I've, uh, I have a few follow-up questions. The, the first is, do you have any stories of becoming enmeshed with some of these subjects and people who have suffered when you provide, say, your cellphone, which is a very human and humane thing to do simultaneously? It opens up the door to, I would imagine, all sorts of potential complexity.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, I mean, I've, I've gotten calls from drug addicts at, at, at, you know, all hours of the night. Um, I've gotten calls from prison, many, many calls from prison. Um, and, and, and there is a, a, a risk. There was an inmate, uh, that, and this wasn't, this wasn't someone I gave my, my cellphone number to. Um, but we, you know, we had this really personal exchange while I was interviewing him. And, uh, I mean, it was really like, he really revealed so much about his life and what propelled him to, you know, become the man that he became and, and

• 17:55Speaker 03

  do what he did. And so he started writing to me and I would write back to him. And after a while, you know, I just, you know, life, life took over and it became increasingly more difficult to keep up, uh, you know, our, our, our, our pen pal relationship, right? And so one day I get a letter in the mail and he's threatening me with violence because I stopped, or I, I hadn't written to him in a long time. And that was certainly a moment, I mean, and it wasn't just, it wasn't just like, I'm gonna kill you. It was like a really, really terrifying thing that he said. And I, I, I thought about reporting it, um, but I didn't. And subsequently,

• 18:38Speaker 03

  a couple of months later, he wrote me another letter apologizing profusely. But it was one of those moments where I thought, you know, maybe this wasn't such a good idea to maintain this relationship. I mean, that was, you know, the only, it, it was the only time something like that happened. For the most part, um, I get asked for money from time to time, particularly from people who are abusing drugs, um, or I get asked to help in, you know, in different ways. And I try to do what I can and I tell people that I, I will do what I can, but I also make it clear that, you know, I can only do so much.

• 19:20Tim Ferriss?

  That sounds very difficult. I mean, what would, uh, what do you say to, say, a drug addict who's asking for money, who perhaps you've helped, which might in its own way, set a precedent or an expectation? What, what do you say to someone who's asking for something like that, that you can't continue to provide?

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Well, look, Tim, I mean, I've, I've bought a lot of bus tickets for people and, uh, I, I, I am though, very open now. And I, and I, I, I did learn the hard way because, um, you know, one of the guys that I was buying bus tickets for, I found out later on that he was continuing to use. And so now I will say to people, look, I, just to, just to make things clear, I'm not going to give you money. I'm never going to give you money because I don't know really what you're going to do with it. But if I can help you in any way, if I can direct you to resources, um, I will, I will do everything I can to try

• 20:25Speaker 03

  to do so. And I, and I really do. I mean, again, I, I do take responsibility for these relationships and they're important to me and they're personal for me. And I really do care about these people because of this thing that they shared with me and that we shared together. But I do have to be very careful because, uh, when, when, when, when it comes to money, um, I realize, especially when someone is under the influence, that I can be very easily taken advantage of.

• 20:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. It's, uh, it's a balancing actor. It's, it would seem to be. And I, I remember at one point befriending this homeless man in San Francisco where I used to live. And at one point paid him to give me a tour of the sort of homeless economy and the homeless underground in San Francisco. And he was entirely coherent. Uh, it was actually a fascinating and really eye-opening experience. And, I mean, the homeless situation in San Francisco is absolutely terrible for many reasons. And later, not that much later, something like 72 hours later, he had my cell phone and had a complete psychotic break and was just making no sense whatsoever. And it was really...

• 21:41Tim Ferriss?

  Gut-wrenching because he seemed to go from periods of lucidity to complete detachment from reality and I was very unsure of how to even approach helping someone like this, which may be beyond the scope of our conversation, but...

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Well, but it, you know, it puts in perspective for me always the work that social workers do. I mean, you know, they are on the front lines of all of this stuff, right? And they, they also, in many cases, you know, become deeply entwined with, with people. And, you know, I think the difference between people like you and me is while we may establish relationships, we don't really know how to deal with, you know, people who are in the throes of addiction or who are mentally ill, you know?

• 22:31Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely.

• 22:32Speaker 03

  And as much as you want to try and help people, there, there certainly are risks that need to be taken seriously as well.

• 22:38Tim Ferriss?

  So, so let's, let's talk about personal risks. And you, you mentioned decompressing and processing earlier. Could you speak to perhaps a particularly challenging experience? It doesn't have to be related to the television work, but it certainly could be. And how you processed and metabolized something that was very difficult? Because it, it seems like there have to be instances where as much as you can compartmentalize, you can't unsee things or unhear things that come into your perceptive field. And how, how do you

• 23:22Tim Ferriss?

  metabolize, say, some of the more difficult experiences?

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Years ago, I interviewed a 17-year-old girl named Ashley who was sold into the world of sexual, commercial sexual exploitation when she was like 11 years old. She was basically sold by a cousin to be, to, to be a prostitute. And I, I remember, you know, we were, we were, I had an all-male team and I asked them all to sit outside so that she and I could have a more candid conversation. We were, we were in a bedroom. So, the only man in the room was our cameraman and the two of us. And as she was recounting...

• 24:06Speaker 03

  Her story, I remember her telling me about how at 11 years old, she would on a regular basis call the police and beg them to arrest her. Um, so that she could have a safe place to sleep. And Tim, it was just like, it was so gut wrenching, the way she was telling the story. And from outside of the room, I could hear my male colleagues going, like, starting to cry. And then I just totally lost it. And she ended up having to console me because I had just been so overwhelmed with grief. And after that interview,

• 24:49Speaker 03

  my team and I, we just kind of like huddled together and just, we all cried together. Again, like this is five men and me. And we just, we just had to let it out. It was, it was just so devastating. And you know, I mentioned earlier that having these teams who are with you along the way has really been my salvation. Because if I were alone doing this, I, I, I don't know that I would have been able to survive all these years because it is so emotionally,

• 25:25Speaker 03

  uh, taxing. But, but having these people, you know, by my side. And, and really my team consists of the most sensitive, um, incredible people, men and women, um, has been what has, has, has gotten me through all of it. And hopefully I've been able to help them get through it as well. But it just makes you realize like how, how much people are hurting out there, how, how deep and dark people's worlds are. Um, which by the way, is, is why I'm so excited about all the work that you're doing and, and psychedelic research because I think that it's just, um, to, to ignore this possible pathway to recovery,

• 26:08Speaker 03

  um, from, from trauma and grief would be just a colossal mistake, given how much people are hurting.

• 26:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, there's, there's a tremendous amount of pain out there and it's part of the reason that I'm, I'm also

• 26:26Tim Ferriss?

  so respectful and

• 26:32Tim Ferriss?

  Encouraging of the incredible work that you do is that you're sharing stories that at the very least help a not so small subset of the population to know that they are not alone in the type of suffering that either they've experienced or that they have felt because loved ones have suffered. And I think that's a very, very important ingredient in any recipe that will begin to resolve or mitigate some of these, whether it's atrocities or just simply conditions that are debilitating.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and to be honest with you, what I really hope that people will do when they watch my work, any of my shows, is just to feel something. You know, I think we have become this culture that doesn't want to feel, and it's really easy for doctors when we're going through things that are hard to say, "Well, here's a pill to take. You know, let's take some edge off. Let me give you something." And for me, the one of the main reasons why I love what I do so much is because I like to feel, whether it's feeling,

• 27:55Speaker 03

  you know, heartsick or feeling glee, like recognizing what it's like to feel. It just makes me feel more alive. My senses are heightened, and I feel grateful that I'm able to have this kind of experience irrespective of the feelings that are generated. And unfortunately, we're afraid of feeling, and I think that it's becoming increasingly dangerous. And so, you know, I hope that people, when they come and see my work, they will be prepared and ready to feel. But I also hope that they will come with an open mind, because we

• 28:36Speaker 03

  will often profile or immerse ourselves among people that you would otherwise never get a chance to get to know, or you might not want to get to know. But hopefully, we will give you an opportunity to know people who are different from you and develop a better understanding of our fellow humans.

• 28:57Tim Ferriss?

  It's fantastic objective. And I think also it's important to note that

• 29:04Tim Ferriss?

  most of the important conversations that need to be had are not going to be comfortable. Right? And I'd like to ask a follow up related to feeling. And in the process of doing research for this conversation, I read, and feel free to fact check this because you can't believe everything you read on the internet.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:26Tim Ferriss?

  But I had read that your family was not particularly communicative as it related to sex or dating or emotions. And specifically, I'm interested in that last part because many people listening, even perhaps someone talking like me, comes from a family where there were certain things that were off limits or there were certain things that just weren't discussed. And perhaps feelings and emotions were in that category. If, if that was true, when you were growing up, how did you train yourself to feel or to discuss emotions more openly?

• 30:09Speaker 03

  It's a great question. I come from a pretty traditional Asian family and most people probably have a pretty decent sense that Asian culture is, is just not the most communicative. And on top of that, my parents got divorced when I was seven years old. And I grew up mostly with my dad and who worked all the time. And so I always felt very conflicted about my, my, my identity. You know, I didn't like being Asian because I was in a community that was totally non diverse. I didn't, I, I felt a lot of resentment toward my parents because they weren't active

• 30:53Speaker 03

  in the way that my friends' families were. And so in my late teens, early twenties, I, I decided that I needed to get help because I just, I had all this stuff kind of percolating in my, in my, in my body. Right. In my, in my soul and my heart, but I couldn't identify exactly what I was feeling. I didn't really even know what feelings were. And so I started working really hard with a therapist and just talking and. That therapist started asking me about my relationship with my mom and my dad. And to tell you the truth, I didn't know anything about my parents backstory because we didn't talk about it. And so when I took the initiative to try and learn about my mom in particular,

• 31:37Speaker 03

  because we didn't have much of a relationship when I was a kid, I just became astounded by her backstory. I ended up taking her to Taiwan, back to where she grew up. And it was a really painful experience because she did not have a good childhood. I mean, it was very, very dark, the things that she experienced. But it allowed me to know her and all of that resentment that I felt for her just disappeared. Because it was almost like I was looking at this little girl and what she had to deal with as a little girl.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  It made my issues just seem so trivial, even though they weren't, but compared to what she went through. And I think that really propelled me to want to understand people better. Because at the end of the day, Tim, you know, we all are human beings, right? We were all born of parents who loved us. We were all born of a mother at one time, right? And we're learning so much about when kids experience any kind of trauma between the ages of one and seventeen, when their brains are developing the fastest. Well, if you don't address that trauma, if you don't deal with it, then it can go on to haunt you for the rest of your life

• 33:03Speaker 03

  and emerge in ways and get triggered in ways that you might never expect. And for me, I just, after that experience, I started to really try and dig deep. And it made me a better person. It made me a better reporter. It made me, I mean, I've always been a curious person, but I think it really kind of ignited this empathy thing. Because I just, I start thinking about everyone.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  As like a little boy, you know, and I, and in so many cases, when I interview people, I ask them to go back to when they were seven or eight years old and, and I ask them how they would feel if they could see their eight-year-old self could see them right now and what they would say to them. And the truth is that we all, you know, we all experience something as a child that really has continued to live with us and in some cases haunt us or debilitate us. But until we take, take steps to address it, um, it could continue on. And so for me, doing this kind of work, that's always something that, you know, I

• 34:19Speaker 03

  kind of keep in the back of my mind, like really trying to understand like how this person, you know, got to this place, how this person became the way he or she became.

• 34:30Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for sharing that. This is, this is really important and at least I think it's important. And I'd love to, I'd love to dig into getting to know your mom. Did you sit down, whether over the phone or in person, and effectively interview your mom about her backstory? Uh, or, uh, what, or was it more intuited traveling together? How, how did you unravel that story? I would imagine it would be very uncomfortable if you didn't have a relationship beforehand or much of one.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Very much so. You know, I started to just ask her some questions and I could see that some of the questions I asked her, like I could just see her, her body change, you know, like a simple question like, how would you describe your childhood? Or were you happy as a kid? And, you know, when you were seven years old, like what did you, what did you want to be? Um, you know, what was your, what was your day to day like when you were an eight, nine-year-old child? And when she would go back to that period, Tim, it was really like, I'll never forget how she went from, you know, this adult, you know, my mother who was supposed to be the protector of me, became this little girl.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  And it was really hard for her to even answer those kind of simple questions like, what was your childhood like? And it propelled me to, you know, want to know more. And so, you know, I wasn't, I didn't have a lot of money at the time, but I knew that this was going to be such a, a, a necessary investment for me. Um, and, and, and for my mom too, because it was obvious that she had never talked about a lot of this stuff. And so we took this trip to Taiwan and a lot of it was really painful. Um, a lot of it was amazing because it was just the two of us having this journey and, and we kind of

• 36:33Speaker 03

  shared intimate moments that we'd never shared before as mother and daughter. And, you know, to people out there listening, if you, if you've never taken the time to really understand your parents' lives, I would, I would really urge people to do so because it's really, it will, it will bring people so much more clarity, um, as to like who their parents really are and, and, and why they have made the decisions that they've made.

• 37:07Tim Ferriss?

  I, I really want to underscore how much I agree with that and have seen the type of conversation you're describing, which can be very uncomfortable, uh, completely change how my adult friends operate in the world and relate to their, and their family, meaning not just their family, parents, but their family, spouse, kids, et cetera. Because perhaps on some level, if you have unresolved resentment, not to say that this conversation will resolve it all, but if you have some degree of resentment towards your parents, your childhood and your ability to parent and so many other things that

• 37:51Tim Ferriss?

  may be sort of below the liminal layer of awareness, uh, it's, it's really remarkable. And I've had some very open conversations with my parents in the last few years that if you had asked me 10 years ago, if I would ever even contemplate having these conversations, I would have brushed it aside as completely impossible, right?

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:13Tim Ferriss?

  And, and it's, it's, it's given me a, a level of relief.

• 38:20Tim Ferriss?

  That I couldn't have predicted beforehand.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's particularly critical for men to do this because I I do feel like right now there are a lot of young men and men who are feeling feeling crisis right now. You know, the, you know, whether it's the job market or, um, you know, the Me Too movement or whatever I, you know, I, I, you know, the suicide rate, for example, is, is, is skyrocketing among men. And I think that for so long, men have been told to not feel or to not, to

• 39:03Speaker 03

  not show emotion. And I think that, um, igniting that process of getting to know your parents or your, your, you know, your father for, for young men, I think it's just a really important thing for, for people to really do because, um, young men really need permission to be able to feel and so many men feel in crisis right now because they've never been given that permission to, to feel.

• 39:34Tim Ferriss?

  Definitely. And I would say also that if, if anyone listening is, is perhaps saying to themselves as I did for a long time, well, I just don't want to deal with it, right? I don't want to open that Pandora's box. Like I've put it behind me. I've compartmentalized.

• 39:54Tim Ferriss?

  What, what I would say, at least in my experience is you're going to deal with it no matter what. The question is, are you going to deal with it in a conscious

• 40:07Speaker 03

  Productive way.

• 40:08Tim Ferriss?

  Productive way where you face it head on? Or are you going to compress it into a box and allow it to seep out the edges in strange ways where it manifests as you getting easily pissed off or yelling at your kid or whatever it might be? Because one way or another, you are dealing with it and. My experience has been it's really trying to figure out what your coping mechanisms are and if they're maladaptive, causing you further harm, or adaptive in some positive way. And the, the, the question of, of therapy is one I'd like to return to. How did you find your therapist?

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a tough question because I don't even remember. I, I.

• 40:52Tim Ferriss?

  And I suppose the, the, the tack I'm taking is how, how might you suggest people find a therapist if they've never even entertained the thought before, right? But, so it can be self-referential, or it could be just a broader discussion of therapy.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, unfortunately, in our culture, um, you know, our healthcare system is not conducive for people to find therapists, or even have insurance cover therapy, which I think is so, it's, it's so ass-backwards in every possible way. And, and that's why so many doctors are just prescribing, you know, pharmaceutical drugs to, you know, for people to, to, to, to Band-Aid, or put a Band-Aid on their pain. And so what I would say to people is, you know, check with your insurance plan, see if it's covered somehow, or if a part of it is covered.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  And I think people are hesitant to spend money on therapy because it's, it's not cheap. You know, therapy is expensive. But I, I have to say that investing in therapy, if, if you, if your insurance is prohibitive, um, you know, and, and you can find therapists that are, are less expensive than others, it, it's such, such an important investment, um, because you're investing in your future, you're investing in your mental health, and.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  You know, and there are things that just shouldn't be, those are things that should not be ignored. Now, if you absolutely can't afford therapy, you know, if you have a group of friends, and particularly for men, again, like, men aren't, they're not conditioned, they weren't raised to be communicative and emotional with with other men, but if you can get a group together regularly, once a month, if you, once every two months, to just like talk and let down the guard, you know, convey that it's a, it's a completely private, you know, conversation, no one outside of the room should know what, what it said, but,

• 43:15Speaker 03

  you know, people need that outlet to be able to just release, you know, whether, whether your friends offer you constructive, you know, advice or criticism, is almost irrelevant, you just need to have a release in a safe space to be able to just kind of express your feelings. It's so healthy to, to do that, and, and I, I'm so emphatic about trying to convey that message, because right now, we're all, humanity is just so addicted to devices, that we're not connecting with people, you know, it's ironic, we're so connected with the world, you know, we can find out any score to any game at the tip of our fingertips, but we're more isolated and lonely than ever because we're defaulting to these devices,

• 44:01Speaker 03

  and not communicating enough with human beings, I mean, you know, remember when we were kids and we would call, you know, when I would call that boy that I had a crush on, those feelings that it would evoke, my god, I would get so nervous and like, you know, I would like start breathing heavily, and it would take like an hour for me to get up the nerve to make that call. Like, those are, those are, those are really important feelings to experience. And we've just like totally done away with all of that because we're now existing in just like swipe culture, right? And we, we, we, we don't even have those opportunities. We don't allow ourselves those opportunities to even feel anymore.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  And I think that that is, you know, it's really dangerous because if you don't have those outlets and you just default to those devices, you can find those dark communities and dig yourself even deeper into a hole. Um, and so the extent that you can seek out human contact, put the phones away and just like sit in a room together without phones. See if you can even do that. Smile at each other, you know, like just have some human contact.

• 45:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, agreed. And I'll, what I'll do also is take a number of therapy services and for those people who might be more constrained financially, some apps as well that are related to therapy, and I'll put them in the show notes. So for people listening, you can go to tim.blog/podcast and just find this episode and I'll put those in the show notes for people.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  That'd be great.

• 45:36Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned earlier, the sort of male demographic, increasing suicide rates as a trend line. I'd like to talk about some of your female influences, extraordinary women who have, who've perhaps influenced you. You, you've spent time with some incredible people. Uh, and I mean, just to name a few, Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Walters. What if you, what if you picked up, observed, or learned from some of these incredible women you've, you've had the opportunity to spend time with?

• 46:14Speaker 03

  You know, it's funny because all my life as a young person, I always fancied having a life like Barbara Walters or Oprah Winfrey. And so when I got a chance to actually work with them and, you know, sit at a table with them and, and, and look to my right and see them, um, it was just, it, it was surreal. Like I, I was just, I, I had like outer body experiences whenever I'd look to my left and I'd see, you know, look into the eyes of Oprah Winfrey. And I remember I was always a really ambitious young person and I and I I've always been kind of a sponge that likes to absorb as much wisdom as I can about how to be a better reporter

• 46:55Speaker 03

  or how to be more successful, right? And every time I interacted with Barbara Walters, the first thing that she would ever ask me is, you know, are you taking care of your personal life? Are you neglecting your personal life? Are you taking time for your personal life? And I remember I was young when I started working on The View. I was in my mid twenties. I would always think to myself like, I want to talk about how you got the interview with Fidel Castro or Monica Lewinsky, or how did you do that, you know? But now, in retrospect, looking back, I learned so much from these women about, because I, what Barbara was doing was basically telling me that she did those things, she neglected her personal

• 47:37Speaker 03

  life, you know, in pursuit of her career. And I could tell that there was a hole left in her. And I remember when she was was retiring from from ABC, she, you know, Barbara Walters has interviewed everyone, but she said her biggest regret was not spending more time with her daughter. And and I think back on that, and it makes me really sad because I so idolized her and wanted a life and a career just like Barbara Walters. And the most important lesson that she taught me was to not neglect my my personal life. And

• 48:21Speaker 03

  and I and I will cherish that advice because I was someone who never wanted to have kids. I never had that biological desire. I've been married for 12 years and six years into our marriage, my husband said, well, why don't we just try? And I thought, huh, I don't really want to, but, you know, if it's something really important to you, we can just, we can try. And then I got pregnant pretty quickly. And then I had a miscarriage. And then I got crazy. And I'm like, I want to have a kid, you know, because I'm that type A, you know, like how

• 48:53Tim Ferriss?

  How do I win at pregnancy?

• 48:55Speaker 03

  Yes, I look at myself as a failure and I had to overcome that. I mean, it was really sick and twisted.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  But now I look at my children, I have a six and a three year old, and even though they drive me crazy, and at forty six years old, I think to myself, like, what am I thinking with a three year old? But um, I just, I'm so grateful to people like Barbara for telling me to not, you know, neglect my personal life, because they are just, they're everything to me. And everything that I do now, in my, my work and in my life, is to try and make this a better place for, for them, and to try and um, bring people together and ignite dialogue, especially in this period of just ugliness and hostility. Um, because I've always just believed that the more we know about each other, the more

• 49:47Speaker 03

  we will respect each other, and the better we become ultimately.

• 49:51Tim Ferriss?

  So what I, I want to ask a little bit more about advice, and then we'll, we'll segue to some other spots, um, including the, sort of the, the hustle of, of Lisa Ling. But we'll get to that in due time. Before that, uh, as you were telling me this story about Barbara and her advice to you, it, it made me think of a story that I heard from the writer Neil Gaiman, and when he was exploding in popularity due to the, the Sandman series of graphic novels, Stephen

• 50:31Tim Ferriss?

  King told him at one point, enjoy it, because he had these long lines of people waiting for signatures and so on. And Neil would admit that at the time, he was not able to take that advice, he did not savor it. It was very stressful for him. Is there, uh, well, A, were you able to take Barbara's advice at the time that you heard it? Or did it take a while to like, course correct and take that into account? And then is there any other advice you've received that you weren't able to take, but later realized was very important?

• 51:08Speaker 03

  At the time when Barbara, you know, kept asking me those questions and almost like reprimanding me for, because she could tell that I was just so ambitious, that I, I was not really devoting time to my personal life. Um, I, I didn't, I didn't take it seriously. Um, but now I just, every time I, I look at my kids, you know, I'm just so grateful that I was able to have them. I mean, I, I had a number of miscarriages after the first one. Um, and I definitely go, went through periods where I, I, I, I thought that I might not be able to have kids. Um, but I, I'm so, I'm so grateful that I have them because

• 51:51Speaker 03

  they, they not only are, you know, my life. I mean, everybody loves their kids and everybody considers their kids their life, but they really have made me want to, um, do the right thing for them, you know, and leave this place better for them and to do everything that I can to, you know, like, it sounds so cliched to him, but like make the world a better place for them. And, and so, you know, as we are kind of, again, like in this period of just hostility and ugliness and darkness and our, you know, the people that

• 52:30Speaker 03

  we are supposed to look up to are, you know, our politicians, our business leaders in so many cases are so morally bankrupt. It makes me more defiant than ever to want to, um, ignite dialogue and to give people a way to get to know their fellow humans better. Um, I just, you know, I, I, I, I don't feel like what I do is a job. I don't really think about it as a job. I just think it's something that I'm supposed to be doing right now.

• 53:05Tim Ferriss?

  And, and to do it well is hard, uh, as, as is the case with so many things. And I'd like to talk about access and.

• 53:21Tim Ferriss?

  Being able to cover some of the groups and stories that you've been able to cover or bring a voice to in terms of stories. So again, this is quoting from the internet, so who knows? But this is a quote that I have in my research. "I fancy myself as a bit of a hustler. I'm a very persistent person. I can be aggressive in my own way. You have to be constantly, you have to constantly be pushing to get the stories that you want told, told." So you can, you can tell me if that sounds roughly like something you would say and assuming, assuming that it is more or less accurate.

• 54:00Tim Ferriss?

  What are the keys to getting the type of unprecedented access to groups that you've had so much success with?

• 54:11Speaker 03

  Well, yes, I, I certainly have been aggressive throughout my life and my career about trying to get access. But in recent years, since we've had this show, This is Life on CNN on the air for the last six seasons, six plus now, I think that people have gotten a good sense of our show and a good sense of me. And it, I think if you, if you're a regular viewer of our show, you see that I am not a sensational or exploitative person.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  I like to think of myself as the vehicle through which people can experience other cultures or, or, or communities that are different from theirs. And over time, I think that people have, have started to recognize that if they are going to share their story on a show, ours would probably be a good one to do it because we do give people an opportunity to tell their stories. I mean, at the end of the day...

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Irrespective of what you may have been accused of, or how you may live your life, we are going to give you a chance to tell your story. I might ask you some tough questions, but ultimately, this show that we do is really about giving people a chance to share. And I try really, really hard to be as nonjudgmental a listener as I can.

• 55:54Tim Ferriss?

  And as far as catalyzing conversation, getting people to think differently, or take action of some type, do you have any success stories that come to mind for you that have made their way over the transom somehow after people have seen the work that you've done? These various interviews and programs that you've put out into the world?

• 56:23Speaker 03

  Well, Oprah was certainly, when I was a correspondent for her show, I mean, it was pretty remarkable what she was able to do. When I reported in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, a story about gang rape, and just these women having to endure the most unfathomable horrors. I think in two airings of that segment, over $3 million was raised for the organization that helped me do the story, that was providing aid to these women. And that just, that really showed me the power of Oprah. I mean, it was unbelievable.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  I don't know that there will ever be that kind of force for good as Oprah. And I really, I really miss her on television, because she really, I think, elevated humanity and brought things to light that otherwise, like, no television outlet or media outlet would touch. Um, for me, our shows are, you know, less shows about, um, you know, activism. Our shows really are an exploration of different worlds or subcultures or different, different issues.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  And just, you know, people coming up to me constantly and just saying, I had, I had no idea that, um, you know, that, that black Muslims, uh, you know, are, are, were, had such a big presence in, in this country and that the women actually feel very liberated, um, by being able to wear a hijab because they don't feel the pressure of, uh, having to show their bodies or using their, their, their, their bodies um, to influence anything, you know, I mean, I think just, just people expressing their enlightenment,

• 58:25Speaker 03

  their enlightenment or their, um, just that they, they, they learned something from something that I've done. Like, that is really satisfying and fulfilling for me.

• 58:37Tim Ferriss?

  I think it's a real service because you're offering people the opportunity to stress test a lot of their assumptions and to sort of broaden their picture of reality to accommodate firsthand reports from people that might conflict with whatever stories they've kind of fabricated or inferred from sensational news headlines and so on, right?

• 59:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, a couple of seasons ago, we did something, um, about gender fluidity and we profiled a man named Steve who was starting to dress in women's clothing. And, and, and Steve told me that he'd, he'd always wanted to, like, he always felt this connection with his feminine side, but, you know, because we live in a culture that has never welcomed it, in fact, to the contrary, was really, you know, um, you know, he felt like he had to suppress that feminine side. He never, he never. Um, you know, would wear women's clothing out like he always felt like he he was more

• 59:42Speaker 03

  gender fluid than not. And so, so I was in a room with him uh as he was putting makeup on, putting earrings on, he he put a dress on. And I literally said to him, Steve, I have to be honest with you. If I saw you walking down the street randomly, I would probably look at you like, oh, my God, like, what, what, what is going on? Like, that guy is a freak. Like, I, I, I might, like, just be predisposed to have that feeling. But having spent time with him, getting to know his story, um, you know, just like

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  getting inside his head, allowed me to see him so differently that that whole, you know, exterior, the dress, the makeup, it was, it was almost like that was what he was supposed to be wearing. Like, I, I, I saw him no differently in lipstick and earrings than I did an hour before when he was just talking to me as Steve in a T-shirt and jeans. And it just goes, it's just like such a testament to this idea of listening people and hearing people out. I'm as guilty as the next person of just following the people on Twitter who espouse the same beliefs as I do. You know, it's so easy. I watch the media that espouses

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  what I, what I believe. And it's, it's, it's easier than ever to exist in these silos. And so what I'm trying really hard to do in life, but also in my show, is break out of those bubbles and, and really hear people out and understand how other people, because that's the only way that we're going to be able to, um, you know, come to an understanding politically or socially. Like, we can't, I can't see us existing this way forever. It's just like, it's too volatile.

• 1:01:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it absolutely is. And, you know, the more that we can at least be exposed to samples of profiles like you're providing, where we can see the sort of inherent

• 1:01:57Tim Ferriss?

  Complexity may not be the right word, but I'll use it for lack of a better stand. And so the complexity of each human as this tapestry of emotions and feelings. The harder it is to paint with a broad brush and hate someone because you view them as one issue, right? You view them as a walking opinion that you disagree with. But when you start to flesh that out as a portrait, you realize that the vast majority of that person is shared. It's a shared experience that you also have.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  Absolutely, Tim. I mean, you know, when we worked on a piece about the MS-13 gang, you know, the gang that President Trump has, you know, called animals, right? And, and, and yes, they have, as an organization, committed unspeakable atrocities and, and, and, you know, have committed the most violent acts imaginable. But if you, you know, and, and this is not in any way to condone that savagery. But when you take the time to understand the kinds of things that these people were

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  exposed to in their home countries, or the pressure they may have been under to do what they did, it doesn't make you, or it doesn't make me, I should speak for myself, feel sorry for them. It doesn't make me condone what they've done. It doesn't make what they've done right in any way. But it gives me the ability and the opportunity to try and figure out how to prevent the next young person who may be exposed to the same things from going down that road. Unless we can identify, like, where that behavior comes from and what those people

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  were exposed to, it's, it's, it's not going to make it any better just to call them animals and try and hunt them down.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  You know, you have to, you have to attack it at its, its root if you're ever going to be able to make real progress.

• 1:04:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, definitely. Uh, looking at causes and not just symptoms. Uh, it's, it's very easy to discard or kind of brush away.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's easy to just, it's a, yeah, it's just easy to characterize a group of people as savages who need to be punished at all, at all costs.

• 1:04:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. It's uh, sort of absolves you of the responsibility of thinking, which doesn't ultimately solve anything. Lisa, what is up next? I believe that you have now season six, is that right?

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, season six.

• 1:04:58Tim Ferriss?

  What, what does season six have in store? What are, what are some of the topics that you'll be exploring? And also where can people find it?

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  So our show, This is Life is on CNN. It premieres on September 29th, a Sunday, and will air on CNN every Sunday thereafter. Our first episode is called Porn X because so many young people are getting their sex ed from pornography. You know, porn has always, always been around, but now the ease of access, any kid with a device or access to a vice, a device can access unlimited amounts of porn and it's having a devastating impact on, on entire generation and the way they perceive sex and relationships. We're also doing a piece about benzodiazepine. So we're talking about Valium, Ativan, Xanax, Klonopin.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  These are medications that are used for anxiety. If you're not on them, you probably know people who are. And they are medicines that should be used for very short periods of time, but um, there's a whole generation of people who've been on them for years and it's a highly, highly addictive drug and there is a fear that benzos are the next opioids. We also explore women in the Marines. They've been the last branch of the military to allow women to. To participate in combat and we embedded with the Marines at Camp Pendleton. We're doing an episode about swingers because swingers aren't what you think they are.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  They've now evolved into like an entire lifestyle that just welcomes free sex. And we also have an episode about this gang in Mississippi. It's the fastest growing gang in Mississippi. It's a white gang, although they're not a racist gang. But we understand why, we attempt to understand why that gang is growing so fast in the state of Mississippi.

• 1:07:04Tim Ferriss?

  How do you choose your subjects? I mean, you have the ability to canvas extremely widely to pick groups and subjects. How did you end up deciding on some of these?

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  Well, very randomly, actually. I mean, I'm a pretty voracious reader and consumer of information. And we will generally pick about 20 topics and present them to CNN. And they will approve eight of them for us to pursue. But for me, it's really about exploring worlds that are just different for me that I think people would find interesting.

• 1:07:45Speaker 03

  You know, the porn ed episode and the benzos episode, to me, they're two issues that I think people need to know about. You know, as far as the pornography episode is concerned, like, parents need to wake up and acknowledge the fact that the moment they give their kids a device, they have unfettered access to, you know, extreme kinds of pornography, even if they have really rigid filters on their devices. I mean, you're basically giving your kids a supercomputer to have on their bodies. And so there are some issues that we take on that I just think people need to know about.

• 1:08:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the porn is tricky. I mean, the parental controls. I saw a tweet. I won't mention his name just in case he wouldn't appreciate it, but he put up a tweet recently which said, you know, "My wife set up parental controls, forgot the password, needed my son to figure it out. Now she has to ask him for the password to log into the parental controls to watch television." And it's a very challenging, I would imagine, situation where you have digital natives who by almost every measure are more savvy with technology than the parents who are trying to implement controls.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 1:09:03Tim Ferriss?

  Very, very challenging.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  Well, you know, in our episode, we feature an adult film actress who's on a mission to tell porn consumers that it's fantasy and that what you don't see is that before cameras even started rolling, they negotiated what they will and will not do, and they had a conversation about consent. You know, what kids can access. I mean, you don't see people talking about consent, you know, or negotiations, or women exerting any kind of power at all. We also spend time with a woman who created this website called Make Love Not Porn, where

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  she shows real people having real-world sex, which means like they're not perfect body types. There may be mistakes. There may be, you know, it may get messy. But she thinks that we need to start seeing what real sex really looks like and not, you know, this artificial porn that is heavily produced and plays on, in most cases, your wildest fantasies because it's just not real and it's damaging kids' minds.

• 1:10:18Tim Ferriss?

  What was the hardest episode? And you can interpret that however you like. Hard could take many different forms, but what was the hardest episode on some level for you to get done this season?

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  Well, the the benzos episode made me the most pissed because I I started to realize that this class of medication is one of the most widely prescribed on earth. Yet, doctors, in many cases, don't know how to get people off them if they are starting to exhibit symptoms of withdrawal. I talked to a a very high ranking psychiatrist at Stanford, in the Stanford Medical School, and I asked her, when you were in medical school, did you learn how to deal with benzo withdrawal, or did you learn how to get people off of these medications?

• 1:11:17Speaker 03

  She said, no, this is a psychiatrist at Stanford. And now you have general practitioners, you have internists, you have pediatricians prescribing these drugs for an indefinite period of time. It's just, it's, it it has made me infuriated because doctors are the people that we we we we entrust with our safety, with our our lives, and they, in many cases, don't don't realize how to treat the symptoms of these drugs.

• 1:11:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's it's such an important point that, you know, before you start taking any medication, and unfortunately, this is incumbent upon the consumer, which is very unfair, but nonetheless, caveat emptor to figure out what the termination clause looks like in the sense that having a having a clear understanding of what the physical dependence can be if you take any drug, right, which is reason, for instance, you know, I have my my girlfriend had a really bad injury some time ago, and we have an unused bottle of tramadol at home, and I was like, you know what, I want to get rid of this right away because having it in the house is a liability.

• 1:12:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Tim Ferriss?

  And a lot of these drugs are so powerful, but because they're common, the incredible potency. In some cases for good therapeutic effect, but often for devastating negative effects, are really underestimated. I mean, my, my best friend, not too long ago, died of a fatal combination of fentanyl and alcohol because a friend of his said, oh, you have a headache here, take this, gave him fentanyl. And this, this friend, meaning the guy who gave it to him, had developed a very high tolerance because he was an opiate user. My friend had never used opiates and fell

• 1:13:16Tim Ferriss?

  asleep and didn't wake up. And these are, just because something is common does not mean that it is extremely dangerous if misused or abused or simply used for a long period of time. So I look forward to seeing that episode.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I really, really hope people tune into this because, you know, isn't it, isn't it curious that these medications are so widely prescribed, yet, you know, our culture is more anxious than ever? You know, like, that's the, the irony in all of this.

• 1:13:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah, it is. I, I, I remember speaking, I was moderating a panel on psychedelic science, which, which you mentioned earlier, at the Milken Global Conference. And I asked two questions before starting. And one of them, well, I'll tell you both questions. The first was, raise your hand if you know, I guess more of a statement, raise your hand if you know anyone who's taking antidepressants and is still depressed. Every hand in the room, like 400, 500 went up. And then I asked them, this is a pretty muckety muck crowd, keep in mind, right? And I asked them, do, do, have you personally, or do you know anyone who has been affected by opiate addiction? Raise your hand. And again, every hand in

• 1:14:29Tim Ferriss?

  the room, 400, 500 went up. And it, it just, it, it really begs the question, you know, are we treating? Are we treating causes and do we have a system that allows for the treatment or the investigation of causes? Or are we simply masking the symptoms of dis-ease that we really haven't taken the time to properly understand? So it is a very, very important subject.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and that's again, that's why I laud you for really taking on, you know, psychedelic therapy, because I think that it could, you know, under the right guidance, right? In conjunction with, with, with therapy, I think it could be really revolutionary and allow people to kind of like, open up those pathways that have been closed up for so long. And I'm just honestly, I am absolutely terrified of a lot of these pharmaceutical drugs. But what terrifies me even more is that a lot of the doctors who are prescribing them don't really know, like really, really know the consequences and how to help people get off of them if they find themselves dependent on them.

• 1:15:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's terrifying. Well, I hope that the broader awareness generated by the episode will, will catalyze some different thinking and maybe some different action by perhaps regulators or at the very least physicians who are prescribing these medications.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I say in the episode, like the one thing that I've done, because I've gotten medicine prescribed and I get the literature and I just, I don't even open it. But I, I realize now that it's incumbent on me, if I'm going to put something in my body, I need to look it over. And if I have any questions whatsoever, I need to ask. We, we, we all need to be doing that more regularly. You know, we have to take the initiative. Even though I do believe it's a doctor's responsibility to really know what he or she is prescribing, we also need to take responsibility and read through the literature when we get it.

• 1:16:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, absolutely. I want to change direction for just, just a couple of minutes, because I know we have limited time left and we're going to come back to This is Life. But you mentioned earlier that you're a voracious reader. Are there any books in particular that you have gifted often to other people in the past?

• 1:17:06Speaker 03

  The book that I have gifted the most often, it's, you would not expect this of me. But it's, it's called Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World.

• 1:17:18Tim Ferriss?

  Fabulous book, fabulous book.

• 1:17:21Speaker 03

  You've read it, isn't it amazing?

• 1:17:22Tim Ferriss?

  It's incredible.

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  The reason I love that book so much, well, because I think that um, history has portrayed Genghis Khan as the ultimate raper and pillager of the universe. Um, but what people don't realize is that his Mongol army, um, I mean, he was, he was one of the world's great democratizers. And that the only way the Mongol army was able to um, take control of most of the world in 25 years. It took, it took the Mongols 25 years to conquer the amount of territory that it took the Romans to conquer in 250 years.

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  Was that the Mongol army would go in, they would take out the aristocracy and give the, the, the, the, the lowest level citizen, right? The slaves in some cases, an opportunity to rise up within his army. Khaleesi's character on Game of Thrones, I heard was based on Genghis Khan. Um, and when you look at, you know, if you were to, to look at his army, it would consist of people who in some cases had blonde hair and blue eyes. Because he conquered so much of, of Eastern Europe. Um, but that's a story that I think also in this period of class divide is really a moving one.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  Because he was this character who, you know, was a slave at one time himself, went on to conquer two thirds of the, the population of the earth. Because he elevated, you know, people, he elevated slaves um, and the lowest level of human to rise up in his army.

• 1:19:01Tim Ferriss?

  I'm really glad that you brought this book up. It was recommended to me by, I won't mention it by name, but one of the best-known CEOs in the world. And I thought it was kind of a strange recommendation at the time because I had the same, I had the same assumptions about Genghis Khan. And then came to read this book and the story of the author himself is also fascinating because he went back and traced these historical paths. And what you really come to appreciate is, A, the magnitude of this empire that was built compared to, like you said, the Roman Empire is just one example.

• 1:19:39Tim Ferriss?

  And also how surprising many of the realities are of this army and the leadership style or the conquering style of Genghis Khan in so much as, as one example, the freedom of religion that was not just allowed but encouraged. But as I, I haven't read this book in a few years, but as I remember it, the one caveat was you can continue to pray to all of the gods that you want to pray to as long as you also pray for Genghis Khan.

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 1:20:14Tim Ferriss?

  Which seemed very fair, seemed very fair, but that's a fantastic book, definitely.

• 1:20:19Speaker 03

  It's so good. It's so good. And like you would not think, you know, when you hear the term democratizer, that, you know, the greatest among us or whoever lived was someone who has been reputed to be such a, you know, a villain in history. But that was all contrived too, you know? His portrayal and the portrayal of the Mongol army was all contrived. So it's just so fascinating to read and it's, I cannot tell you how many people I've gifted that book to.

• 1:20:54Tim Ferriss?

  And just, just to also be clear, I mean, he, his army was excellent at killing people. I mean, there was that. But not, it was not as one-sided a story of a roaming horde of sort of foaming-at-the-mouth savages that many of the other portrayals would have you to believe is very sophisticated in a lot of respects. So I second that recommendation. Are there any other books that you've gifted or recommended to many people?

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I also love The Alchemist.

• 1:21:34Tim Ferriss?

  Paul Oquilio.

• 1:21:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, um, you know, just, just following the journey of this shepherd boy to far flung, you know, corners of the earth, um, was just such a, like a fantastical, um, journey for me. Um, you know, though he realized that like, you know, that, that, that the most fascinating place was inside of him, you know, um, and the most thoughtful, important place was inside of him. Like, I just, um, will always, that book will, will always, um, have a very special place in my, in my heart.

• 1:22:14Tim Ferriss?

  It's such a, such a fast read, such an easy read. And, uh, I remember reading that when I was, I want to say first traveling. I didn't travel much at all when I was younger. And it did have a lasting impact. And the story behind that book also, I, I find very, uh, encouraging because, and I might get the numbers wrong, but I believe that Paul Oquilio, the author.

• 1:22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Tim Ferriss?

  Had an initial print run of something like 500 copies. And then that first publisher gave up on The Alchemist, shelved it, and then he had to later republish it. And of course, now it's sold 100 million plus copies.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  Wow, I didn't even know that story. Wow.

• 1:22:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, it was not.

• 1:22:58Speaker 03

  It's such a simple little book, but it's just so profound. Yeah. Um, and one more book, even though I haven't gifted it, um, to a lot of people, but it is, I credit this book with, um, propelling me to dig deeper and to not always, you know, believe the narrative. And that book is A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn.

• 1:23:26Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. This is one I haven't read. So tell me, tell me more.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  You have to read this book because it will turn on its head so much of what you have always believed to be true about this country. You know, it goes into graphic detail, the savagery that took place, you know, with Columbus, with Christopher Columbus on the Native Americans, the Native people who inhabited this land. I mean, it just, it just forces you to rethink everything that you've learned and to think about it in another context. And it's, it is, it's a profound experience to, to read this book and think

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  about it in, in the context of history.

• 1:24:18Tim Ferriss?

  I love it.

• 1:24:19Speaker 03

  You need to get this book, Tim.

• 1:24:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'll check it out.

• 1:24:22Speaker 03

  And after you read it, call me and let me know what you think. I mean, it's incredible.

• 1:24:26Tim Ferriss?

  I will. I will. And I, you know, what I love about the two or the three examples that you gave, much like the show, I suppose, so it shouldn't be surprising, is that these are, these are, they are, these are assumption and narrative testing books. And, you know, I would, I would say that, you know, if you find yourself, say, for any given week, having the day-to-day experience of not having uncomfortable conversations or reading things that make you uncomfortable, not in a mudslinging capacity, but in the sense of deeply and legitimately

• 1:25:08Tim Ferriss?

  stress-testing beliefs or narratives that you have about yourself or the world or other people, then you're really not living properly, as far as I'm concerned. Because so much of what we tell ourselves is just utter bullshit. It's complete, complete nonsense. And as soon as you start to stress-test it, it just falls apart. It's like the wizard behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. So I'm really glad that you mentioned these, and I will pick up Howard's book.

• 1:25:36Speaker 03

  And, and, and when you read that book, you will, I mean, everything that you just said, it's, after you read that book, you'll go, okay, now I get why she responded to this book, because your jaw will be dropped. And again, like, everything that you learned in school, you will think differently about it. You'll, you'll think about this other perspective. And Um, I think it will change the way you view our institutions. I think it'll change the way you think about what it means to be an American. Um, and, and, you know, hopefully it will strike a chord with you and you will like just feel more empathy.

• 1:26:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  Because of, you know, like how this country was, like the way this country was founded.

• 1:26:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, empathy, man, we could definitely use a heavy dose of more empathy. And, and I think one of the ways that you develop empathy in part is by through allowing and even encouraging your own beliefs to be tested, uh, developing more flexibility in how you perceive the world and other people. Right?

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:26:54Tim Ferriss?

  And because, you know, the more labels you apply to other people and yourself, the dumber you become, to borrow a Paul Graham and paraphrase a Paul Graham expression. Um, and it's, it's through, I think, this productive discomfort of reading things like this or watching television shows like those you put out, that you develop a cognitive flexibility that opens the door to emotional development in terms of empathy. It's really, really important.

• 1:27:26Speaker 03

  Hey, it's easy to live in a bubble and to be told what to think and then, and then spew what you've been told. That's, that's easy, right? It's, it's, it's, it's hard to try and, you know, understand the truth or take the time. It requires time and energy to get invested in other people's stories. But I do, in my heart of hearts, believe that you emerge a, a, a better and smarter human as a result of, of, of taking that time. It is in no way a waste.

• 1:27:57Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, and it's.

• 1:28:00Tim Ferriss?

  It's deeply positive, it's also deeply practical, right? At least in my experience and what I've observed. If you don't have any empathy, or you have very minimal empathy for other people who are labeled your enemies, or the other party, or whatever it might be. That's also reflected in, I think, how you treat the people around you, including the people you love most, and not excluding yourself. So, you know, how you treat others as you would have them treat you, it goes the other way around as well. And I think that how you relate to the world and treat others is also often mirrored in how you relate to and treat yourself.

• 1:28:43Tim Ferriss?

  So this is deeply positive, I think. It makes you more adaptable, and it's also very practical from an emotional health perspective.

• 1:28:52Speaker 03

  Well, they say that empathy is a key driver in success. You know, some of the most successful people, you know, have, you know, had that, had those, you know, characterizations, or could be characterized as being empathy. I mean, there's a direct correlation between empathy and success. But yeah, I mean, and I think that it's also, you can develop empathy too. You know, it's not like it's something that you're born with, right? And I think for young people, for any parents who are listening to this, or just young

• 1:29:32Speaker 03

  people who are really attached to their devices, I think, you know, take that time, as I mentioned earlier, to just like, put it away and have conversations with people. Like, really, really connect with people on a human level. I think that the further we get away from that, you know, the further we get from, you know, being able to feel empathy.

• 1:29:55Tim Ferriss?

  And I think a great example of one of those conversations is the conversation that you had with your mom, and the steps that you took after a childhood, which is very common for many people listening, of not discussing emotions.

• 1:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Through therapy, through this conversation with your mom and so on, creating access to your own emotions and greater awareness of your own emotions naturally led you to a greater development of empathy towards other people. Because you're able to recognize.

• 1:30:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know I'm a better person as a result of that experience and ultimately I do think I'm a better mom because of it. Because I, I recognize how much it benefited me to take the time to understand, you know, my mom's past. It was one of the most important life lessons for me.

• 1:30:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would imagine your kids are going to benefit tremendously from the effort that you took in having some very uncomfortable conversations at the time. And let me ask just a few more questions. I know we're coming up on time shortly. This is, this is a hard question, so you can sort of tackle it from any angle you like, but the billboard question. So if, if you could put a message, a quote, an image, anything non-commercial on a billboard, metaphorically to get something out to billions of people, let's say, does anything come to mind that you might put on such a billboard?

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  You know, the thing that I think would speak to these times would be like, stop texting and start listening.

• 1:31:36Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  Because I, I just, I feel like so much has gotten lost in this digital, this digital culture that we are, you know, living in.

• 1:31:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, indeed. I think we're very poorly, poorly designed for the environments that we have created for ourselves from a digital perspective.

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I mean, You know, and and and I need to practice what I preach because I'm on my device a lot. I I try really hard now to put it away when I'm at home. And if I have to do some work on it, I'll tell my my kids like I'm gonna go upstairs and do another room. Because it's just, it's rude for me to be on my phone in front of them all the time. And how can I expect them to not be on the phone all the time when, you know, they get their devices one day or when they're parents one day. Um, so I I I I try really hard and I am as guilty as the next person um, of, you know, going down that rabbit hole of social media late at night, you know, just like an hour will elapse. And I'm still on Instagram and feeling really shitty about myself

• 1:32:48Speaker 03

  because I've just looked at these perfect lives of people, you know, and and look, like, I'll be honest. There have been, um, you know, dinners that I I see my friends posting about that I wasn't invited to. And I feel this like pang of like, why, why wasn't I invited to that? You know, I definitely have felt that and I'm thinking to myself, I'm an adult. I can get over this stuff pretty quickly. But for this young generation of kids that, um, you know, is growing up with this, like not getting invited to, you know, a party. And not just any party, because you don't just post any party on Instagram. You post like the sickest party you've ever been to on Instagram, right?

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  And not getting invited to that, like, what does that do to your ego? You know, it's like, the thing I hated the most about high school was just like, I remember that kind of obsession I had with popularity, you know, because I think all young people, they they wanna know what their place is and they wanna have friends and, you know, they they they they they want, they wanna be popular. Social media is every, like, that which I hated about popularity in high school magnified. And I just, you know, I think that we all need to just, like, put it aside from time to time and just like breathe and really, really connect with people. So like the message that that my billboard, you know, would contain would definitely have to do with just like, you know, connecting with humans.

• 1:34:17Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you do a good job of showcasing that in the work that you put out. And you have this, season six, This is Life.

• 1:34:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Tim Ferriss?

  On CNN, premiering Sunday, September 29th, 10:00 PM Eastern and Pacific. And since we just mentioned social media, people can find you on Instagram. Correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong. Lisa Ling Instagram, that's your handle. Twitter, at Lisa Ling. I'm sorry, go ahead.

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  Lisa Ling Instagram.

• 1:34:47Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, there we go. Oh, I missed the, I missed the S. Lisa Ling Instagram. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  Lisa Ling Instagram.

• 1:34:56Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I will link to that, just to save people the spelling challenge. Twitter, a little bit easier, at Lisa Ling. Is that right?

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:35:05Tim Ferriss?

  And then you've got, we've got the website, This is Life, which I'll link to in the show notes. Facebook, is it facebook.com/ling?

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:35:15Tim Ferriss?

  All right.

• 1:35:16Speaker 03

  It is. And I, and I try hard to, you know, read a lot of the messages that I get, but I'm not great at it because I've been trying really hard, especially when I'm around my kids, to be present with them. And, you know, I am going to start taking bigger breaks from social media because I just, you know, I think we all need to just have those breathers. And I hope people will do that along with me.

• 1:35:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. Social media will still be here when you get back, so.

• 1:35:44Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:35:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's not, it's not going anywhere, for better or for worse. Lisa, do you have anything else you would like to add? Any suggestions, comments, any parting words before we wrap up?

• 1:35:59Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, I think we covered a lot. I, I think you're great and I'm, I, I hope we can work together in some capacity, maybe on psychedelic stuff.

• 1:36:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. I'd love to be a, be a resource, helping anyway.

• 1:36:13Speaker 03

  I appreciate that you're out there having really thoughtful conversations with people.

• 1:36:17Tim Ferriss?

  You too, you too, Lisa. You've been doing this long before this podcast was even an idea in my head. So you've paved the way and provided a really inspiring example, no doubt, to so many people who have then wanted to emulate what you do, which is providing a full human picture in subcultures and related to topics that can be polarizing or uncomfortable. And that's a very important service in the world. And it's hard for me to imagine, at least as long as I've been on this planet, a more important time for

• 1:36:58Tim Ferriss?

  that type of influence to exist to offset so much of the terrifying sort of polarization that exists in the world right now. So, thank you for doing what you do.

• 1:37:11Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thanks, Tim. Likewise.

• 1:37:13Tim Ferriss?

  And so I think this is a natural place to close. So, thank you very much, Lisa. And to everybody listening, you can find links to everything we've discussed in the show notes, as usual, at tim.blog/podcast and just look up Lisa Ling and it will come to your fingertips. And until next time, thanks for listening. Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest

• 1:37:58Tim Ferriss?

  things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Business Wars.

• 1:38:42Tim Ferriss?

  What's that? It's a podcast. People always ask me what podcast I listen to and the truth is, I don't listen to that many, just a handful, because most of my bandwidth is taken up with producing my own podcast. One exception, in other words, one that makes the cut, is Business Wars from the podcast network Wondery. Of course, human history has thousands upon thousands of epic wars, and that has existed forever, but some notable wars are waged between businesses, whether between gigantic corporations or between tiny, tiny startups and large incumbents, David and Goliath situations. And Business Wars, which I've been listening to, just listened to it this morning, in fact,

• 1:39:24Tim Ferriss?

  on my ride to downtown Austin, takes you right into the middle of these battles. Sometimes, the prize for these competitors is your wallet or your attention, sometimes it's just the fun of beating the other guy. The outcomes of these battles shape how we live, what we buy, and often what we think. I've listened to previous episodes and previous seasons. So for instance, I have listened to Netflix versus Blockbuster, it was amazing. Nike versus Adidas, also incredible. But there are also smaller businesses and many different types of folks profiled. The sound design is incredible, I didn't think it would matter to me, but it really does.

• 1:40:05Tim Ferriss?

  And the newest season, which I've been listening to, is about the WWE's, that's the World Wrestling Entertainment's long road to success in battles with the WCW. And just as one surprise, did you know that the World Wrestling Federation, now the WWE, started as just one of 30 regional wrestling associations? And the first episode, so this is WWF versus WCW, Titan Rising, and a lot of strategy comes out of this, a lot can be learned about how to do battle and business, but here's the description, "It's the early 1980s and there's peace in the wrestling business. For years, regional wrestling companies have maintained order by sticking to their own slices of US and Canadian territory, but all that's about to change.

• 1:40:50Tim Ferriss?

  Vince McMahon has just taken over the WWF and he wants war. He's on a mission to crush all opposition and establish the WWF as the only wrestling game in town, but his assault on the wrestling status quo will also make him a powerful enemy." Cable TV mogul Ted Turner. I had no idea about this backstory. And it's great. So definitely check it out. It's hosted by David Brown, a former anchor of Marketplace, who's really fantastic. So David, if you're listening, nicely done. Might ping you about future audiobooks. And it is an immersive sound design experience. You'll see what I mean when you check it out. It shares the untold and very real stories of what went on behind the scenes with, now broadly speaking, the leaders, executives,

• 1:41:33Tim Ferriss?

  and investors and what led them to new heights, or to ruin, or sometimes somewhere in between. You can find Business Wars on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to this episode right now, or head to wondery.fm/tim. That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y dot F-M slash tim, T-I-M. That's where you can find Business Wars. It's a great show. I suggest, starting with the latest series, it's really good, even if you don't care about wrestling whatsoever. I mean, as a child of the 80s, it was always somewhere in the culture for me. But it's great also as a business strategy tactic, art of war type of discussion. Latest series, WWF versus WCW. It's a pretty epic one, filled with all the colorful cast of characters

• 1:42:18Tim Ferriss?

  you would expect. Hulk Hogan, there's some amazing archival audio of TV shows that Hulk Hogan appeared on, actually choked one anchor unconscious accidentally. It's a pretty fucking crazy story, pardon my French. Stone Cold Steve Austin, and many others. So check it out, wondery.fm/tim. This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN. I've been using ExpressVPN for a few weeks now, and I find it to be a very reliable way, and very fast way, to make sure that my data are secure and encrypted without slowing down my internet speed whatsoever. It's very easy to forget that I even have it on. But first, why should you care about encrypting data at all?

• 1:43:01Tim Ferriss?

  And rule number one, or reason number one I should say, is it's often quite easy for a hacker to bypass Wi-Fi security and steal your information. And I've seen this demonstrated by friends of mine who know how to do this, and it's terrifying. They can exploit flaws like Krack and many others. If you're interested in checking that out, you can Google "Krack", with a K, K-R-A-C-K. If you ever use public Wi-Fi at, say, a hotel or a coffee shop, where I often do work, and where many of you, my listeners, no doubt, do work, you're often sending data over an open network, meaning no encryption whatsoever. One way to ensure that all of your data are encrypted and can't be easily read by hackers is by using ExpressVPN.

• 1:43:43Tim Ferriss?

  All you need to do is download the ExpressVPN app on your computer or smartphone, and then use the Internet, the web, just as you normally would. You click one button in the ExpressVPN app to secure 100% of your network data. ExpressVPN is also recommended as the number-one VPN provider by review sites like TechRadar and CNET. ExpressVPN is a company that takes privacy and security to the next level. They invented a technology called Trusted Server to ensure that no data logs are written to a server's hard drive, even by accident. Trusted Server, all one word, was recently audited by PWC, this price Waterhouse Coopers, to confirm how its technology protects your privacy. If you want one of the best solutions in online security and privacy protection,

• 1:44:27Tim Ferriss?

  head over to expressvpn.com/tim for an exclusive deal. ExpressVPN is offering three extra months free with a one-year package to all of my listeners who visit expressvpn.com/tim. Protect your Internet today with the VPN I use to keep my data safe. Go to expressvpn.com/tim to get started.