599. The First World War: Downfall of the Habsburgs (Part 6)

After endeavouring to wreak their revenge on Serbia, what would be the greatest hammer blow to the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the First World War? With Leviv having fallen apocalyptically to the Russian hordes, what had gone so wrong? How might the war have been brought to an end before Christmas of 1914? And, with the darkness gathering around the Austrian defences, could the great fortress of Przemyśl hold out against the Russian barrage for a second time…? Join Dominic and Tom as they discuss the fall of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian advance, on the brutal Eastern front, as the first year of the First World War grinds bloodily on… ______ Try Adobe Express for free now at https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/spotlight/designwithexpress?sdid=HM85WZZV&mv=display&mv2=ctv or by searching in the app store... Learn more at https://uber.com/onourway Explore the world’s most loved stories in their most beautiful form - only at https://www.foliosociety.com/. ______ Join The Rest Is History Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to every series and live show tickets, a members-only newsletter, discounted books from the show, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at therestishistory.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Tom Holland?

  This episode is presented by Adobe Express, the quick and easy create anything app. What does that mean? Well, say you need to make a presentation or a video or a social media post or a flyer. To some, certainly to me, that sounds intimidating.

• 0:21Dominic Sandbrook?

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• 0:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working. And in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me.

• 1:01Tom Holland?

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• 1:46Tom Holland?

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• 2:33Tom Holland?

  Until he has experienced all the intricacies of war with his own eyes, his own body and his own soul, no man can ever truly imagine it. Marching through sand and marshland, through fathomless swampy forests in the searing heat, with no water in his stomach groaning in hunger. And then suddenly, as you were plodding along, so tired and bruised and battered, the scene comes alive before you. The first shots of barking in your ears and the roaring and howling of the shells is getting nearer and nearer. To one side you hear the crackling of machine gun fire.

• 3:12Tom Holland?

  You taste the battle, a peculiar sour yet bland taste that settles in your mouth. And you feel it. Because all your nerves and muscles contract and your brain can think of one thing and one thing only. You have to act. So that is from the thrillingly titled Kaiserjäger: Persevere. The heroic death of the second regiment of the Tyrolean Kaiserjäger in the days of September 1914. It was published in the late 1930s and is quoted in Nick Lloyd's new book, On the Eastern Front. And Dominic, you have written, "We've always had a soft spot for the Tyrolean Kaiserjäger,

• 3:55Tom Holland?

  an elite regiment, the Imperial Hunters with lovely sky blue uniforms and feathered hats." Now, I've never had a soft spot for the Tyrolean Kaiserjäger because I've never even heard of them. That's not true. But as I said in the previous episode, we are now on your home territory. This is a part of the world you know like the back of your hand. You've roamed the mountains, you've plunged into the depths of the forests, you speak all the languages. This is your home territory. So tell us, what's going on here? Who are the Tyrolean Kaiserjäger? What is it with their lovely sky blue uniforms and their feathered hats? What's going on? Is it the hell of war? Or what? I imagine it is, probably, because everything in this series seems to be about the hell of war. But surprise us.

• 4:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is the hell of war, Tom. And actually, Tom, you're being falsely modest because you, even before we did The Rest Is History, you used to talk to me about that second regiment, in particular, the Tyrolian Kaiserjäger. They're your favorite regiment of your favorite Austro-Hungarian unit, and don't deny it.

• 4:51Tom Holland?

  I am hiding my light under a bushel here, but I only say that you will blaze all them all brightly.

• 4:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's kind.

• 4:56Tom Holland?

  It's the generosity.

• 4:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think it's the feathered hats that do it for us, isn't it? So actually, yes, the Tyrolian Kaiserjäger had a terrible time in the September 1914. What happens to them is just one aspect of a wider story. So we began this series more than a year ago with Franz Ferdinand and his assassination in Sarajevo. And we're ending this part of the great sweep through the First World War by talking about the beginning of the end of Austria-Hungary, the destruction of its army and the fraying of the bonds that held the empire together. So last time, we talked about how the Austrians sought to wreak revenge on Serbia, and it became a humiliating rout for them. And the bloke in charge, General Potyorek,

• 5:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  the master of security in Sarajevo, ended up being fired just before Christmas.

• 5:45Tom Holland?

  And presumably after that, there are no feathers left in the hats of the Tyrolian Kaiserjäger.

• 5:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Not at all. And today, we're turning to the arena in which they saw combat, which is the eastern borderlands of Poland and Ukraine. It's the area that Timothy Snyder calls Europe's bloodlands in the 20th century. And at the center of this episode is the story of one city, which is called Puschemyszl.

• 6:10Tom Holland?

  What's it called?

• 6:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's called Puschemyszl. So this was the most formidable fortress of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and it became, the struggle for this fortress became the longest siege of the war. And I have to be honest with the listeners, the reason I know about this is because I read a brilliant book called The Fortress by the historian Alexander Watson. So just a massive shout out to this book, The Fortress, because so much of what follows is dependent upon it. It's a story that's not just a riveting story in and of itself, but it captures the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, an empire, you know, with centuries of history, the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe, and the agony of the Jews of Poland and Ukraine, which begins really here. So to give a sense of where we are, I'm sure this will immediately help you out, Tom,

• 6:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  when I tell you that we're in the Kingdom of Galicia in Lodomiria.

• 6:58Tom Holland?

  Brilliant, of course we are.

• 6:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  So today, Eastern Poland, that's where Puschemyszl is, very close to the Ukrainian border.

• 7:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, at the time, this was Austria's most northeastern province. It was a crown land, so-called, governed from Vienna. And the province of Galicia had two big cities. One is a place then called Lemberg, but which we know as Lviv, and the other is Krakow, now in southeastern Poland. The area had a very diverse population, so about forty-five percent each Polish, and what was then called Ruthenian, what we would now call Ukrainian, and that leaves about ten percent which those people were Jewish. And the third biggest city in Galicia was this place, Jemischl.

• 7:39Tom Holland?

  I love hearing you say that.

• 7:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  And today, it's just a few miles in from the Polish border with Ukraine.

• 7:47Tom Holland?

  What's it called now? Still called that?

• 7:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's still called Jemischl, that's the Polish name. And it was given an award by Wladimir Zelensky a couple of years ago for taking so many refugees, so many Ukrainian refugees. But back then, in nineteen fourteen, in most respects, it was just your classic, sleepy, Middle European city. So it's got a castle, it's cathedral, it's got loads of churches, it's got synagogues, it's got tons of coffee houses. And there were about fifty thousand people who lived there. About half of them were Catholics and were Polish, about a third were Jewish, and the rest were what were then called kind of Greek Catholics, which is to say they're Ukrainians.

• 8:23Tom Holland?

  So they're Orthodox, but they accept the supremacy of the Papacy, is that right?

• 8:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly right, exactly right, yeah. But there was also a garrison of about ten thousand men, for a couple of reasons. First of all, because Jemischl was an important railway junction, and it guarded the Carpathian mountain passes into Hungary. So if you look at a map of Austria-Hungary, in the northeast, there's the great sweep of the Carpathian Mountains, but they're not the border. There's a bit of Austria-Hungary that's on the other side of the Carpathians, and this is Galicia, so this is where this is. And the second reason why there's this garrison is that since the early eighteen seventies, Jemischl had been designated as a fortress city. So it was designated as the cornerstone of Austria-Hungary's eastern defenses.

• 9:08Tom Holland?

  So it's kind of the Verdun of Austro-Hungary?

• 9:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is Verdun, exactly, a citadel that

• 9:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  An emblem of sort of national defence, national security.

• 9:21Tom Holland?

  And kind of a salient.

• 9:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, salient, I guess. Ozgiliath, Tom, for Gondor, I guess. So by 1914, they've built this huge fortress and it's a chain of seventeen major and eighteen minor forts, arranged in a thirty mile ring around the city and two lines of trenches. So it looks pretty impregnable. And inside this this ring, there's a huge military base with seven barracks, with a rail yard, with warehouses, with ammunition magazines. All of this cost the Austro-Hungarians hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds in today's money. And Sheemishul has become this huge symbol of imperial prestige and the Austrians are very, very proud of it.

• 10:03Tom Holland?

  Well, it sounds as if they should be. Sounds brilliant.

• 10:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, it's the equivalent of having like a really fancy aircraft carrier today or something of that ilk. So to the war. In August 1914, tens of thousands of troops passed through this city, heading east to the far border of Galicia to defend it against the Russians. And as we said in the last episode, they are a very complicated mosaic of Germans, Hungarians, Czechs, Poles, whatever. Not a winning formula under the pressure of total war. And of course, the man who's commanding them is this bloke Konrad von Hutzendorf, who has basically started a world war in order to impress his mistress Gina von Rininghaus and to get to marry her. Now, Konrad, as we said in the last episode, when we talked about the complete disaster of the war against Serbia,

• 10:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  he is a great believer in attacking spirit. Even though the Austrians have fewer divisions than the Russians, they have thirty four, the Russians have fifty three. He thinks that's fine. We can easily, you know, them and Vega, we'll wipe the floor with the Russians. So he's developed this insanely ambitious plan to basically envelop the Russians in southern Poland. But right from the start, as is the way with the Austro-Hungarian military operations, there are some small teething troubles. So first of all, he says, well, I'll need 11,000 trains to send all these men east. The train network can only produce 2,000 trains, so that's nowhere near enough. These trains travel at only 10 miles an hour, and they stop for six hours every day so that the troops can have lunch. Before they even

• 11:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  fire a shot, there are warning signs. So at one point, they're all, all these troops are going east, and the station master, a place called Podborja, which is in eastern Silesia, has a nervous breakdown under the stress of so many people on the network. He reverses all the signals the wrong way. The trains all go backwards, and then he shoots himself.

• 11:50Tom Holland?

  Do you know what they should have had? A monkey.

• 11:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  A Jack the Signalman.

• 11:54Tom Holland?

  Jack the Signalman. They should have had a monkey.

• 11:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  One of history's top monkeys, because he never made a mistake, paid in beer, ran the South African railways for years. Yeah, he was brilliant.

• 12:03Tom Holland?

  And for those who may have missed that episode or would like to hear it again, it's episode 426, History's Greatest Monkeys. And I wasn't actually expecting them to turn up in the middle of the First World War, but you never know.

• 12:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, one of them fought in the First World War.

• 12:14Tom Holland?

  A Corporal Jackie.

• 12:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  Great to have him back on the show. Anyway, back to the Eastern Front. Eventually, they get off the trains and they set off. Now, eastern Galicia is a very poor, very rural part of the Empire. There actually aren't many railways, and the roads are shocking. And most Habsburg soldiers, when they get there, they say, God, this is awful. This is very hot, and it's dusty, and it's very alien, and what are we doing here? They won a couple of early victories against the Russians, actually, which we won't go into. But by the end of August, things are starting to go wrong. The language difficulty is such a massive issue for them. They can't actually understand what each other are saying. So the orders are getting muddled. Some units literally are marching in these vast circles,

• 12:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  going round and round, or they lose touch with their supplies or whatever. And because of the language difficulty, there are innumerable instances, and this is not funny, of friendly fire. So, you know, a load of Krajaks will bump into a load of Czechs, and they'll start shooting at each other because they think the others are Russians, or Germans and Hungarians or whatever. So all this chaos is unfolding.

• 13:20Tom Holland?

  So Dominic, can I just ask, they don't all have a standard uniform then? Do they have, do the different units have different uniforms?

• 13:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, of course, different, yeah. They're not all got feathered hats like the Tyrolean Kaiserjäger with their sky blue uniforms.

• 13:31Tom Holland?

  Yeah, so there is scope for complication there.

• 13:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  There's definite scope for complications. Now meanwhile, far to the east, the Russians are building up their forces and soon they outnumber the Austrians almost two to one. Now, back in Zemischl, people have no idea what's, the troops have been and gone and people have no idea what's happening at the front. And then in late August, the first trains of wounded start to arrive in the city. And a woman who was serving hot drinks to the wounded at the station later described the spectacle. She said, I saw shot through lungs and hearts, terrible stomach wounds, blood, vomit, feces, but not a single groan, just apathy. Then on the 30th of August, for the first time, they hear, you call it

• 14:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  the krump, I call it the dull thud of guns in the east. So the front is clearly coming closer. Then, an extraordinary scene, a train comes through Zemischl carrying Russian prisoners. And as it rolls through the station, a man shoves his head out of the window of the train and he screams out in Polish, "Oh, you poor, poor people. A great power is coming towards you. They will murder you."

• 14:42Tom Holland?

  God, it really, I mean, it really is like a kind of horror film, isn't it? The zombies are approaching.

• 14:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, exactly. So next come a whole load of trains from Lviv. Lviv is 60 miles away in the east, on the eastern frontier of the empire. And these trains are packed not with wounded men, but with civilian refugees. So it's now clear that something out east has gone horribly, horribly wrong. And actually, when they, these refugees shout out at the trains and they say, Lviv is in chaos, the mayor or the officials have fled, the banks have shut down, the streets, the parks are full of wounded soldiers, there's no food, law and order have broken down completely. It is a bit of a zombie film. And then, there are no more trains. It's as though communications with Lviv have completely gone down because Galicia's capital Lviv has fallen to the Russians.

• 15:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hello, hello, can you hear me? Can you hear me?

• 15:36Tom Holland?

  Exactly like that.

• 15:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is like that. It is like that. I wondered what was going on there at first and then I thought, no, that's great acting.

• 15:42Tom Holland?

  It is.

• 15:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Brilliant. So what has gone wrong out east? What has gone wrong is this, that Conrad has thrown 600,000 men into action, but not enough. And they don't have enough good guns and the Russians have completely steamrolled them. So Lviv had fallen on the 3rd of September, occupied by General Alexei Brusilov's 8th Russian Army, and that's just the beginning. Further north, the Russians are absolutely battering the Austrians at a place called Rawa Ruska. And so by the 9th of September, the Austrians are facing total and utter disintegration. And the next day, the 10th, General Conrad drove out himself to the front line with the Archduke Karl, the heir to the Austrian throne. So they went to a place called Grodek. This

• 16:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  was very unusual for Conrad because usually he's behind the lines. And he was absolutely horrified by what he found, the total chaos. And one thing above all, in Grodek, there were six bodies hanging in the main square, two of them accused of betraying Austrians to the enemy, and the others for robbing the dead and the wounded on the battlefield. So very sort of, a very kind of haunting scene. Conrad goes up to the highest ridge to survey the battlefield, and even he can, with his optimism, can see that the Russians are about to break through. So the following night, the 11th, he gives the order to fall back behind the river San, which is one of the rivers in sort of southeastern Poland. And the next day, the Austrians began to retreat. And the same day, you know, perfect

• 17:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  timing, the clouds open, the rain starts coming down. Tom, the heavens are weeping for the Habsburg Empire.

• 17:13Tom Holland?

  And presumably for Conrad's relationship with Gina, because she's not going to be impressed by this at all, is she?

• 17:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, the news actually gets much worse for Conrad. Five days after he'd given the order to retreat, his adjutant came into his office looking very, very stricken. And Conrad said, what, bad news, more bad news in the front, really? And the adjutant said, it's actually a personal matter for you, sir, kind of concerning your son. And Conrad said, oh, no, please tell me he's not badly wounded. And the adjutant said, no, it's, it's worse than that. So Conrad's youngest and his favorite son, who was called Herbert, was a lieutenant in the Dragoons, and he had been killed at Rawa Ruska. And Conrad says to the adjutant, can you leave me a minute? And for an hour, he wept. And then he washed his face and he straightened his

• 18:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  uniform and he went back to work as though nothing had happened. But everybody said that after this, he was basically a broken man, a kind of withdrawn and broken man. But he doesn't lose his job. He carries on running the Austrian army.

• 18:15Tom Holland?

  And even before that, he'd been melancholy, hadn't he? Because there was that war, war, war.

• 18:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:22Tom Holland?

  His misery must be even greater.

• 18:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, he doesn't lose his job. He carries on making decisions, which unfortunately is disastrous for the Austrian cause.

• 18:28Tom Holland?

  Do you think anyone could have stabilized the situation?

• 18:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  They must be up against it. I was thinking about this actually when I was doing the notes. Because you know, I'm quite Austrophile.

• 18:37Tom Holland?

  You are, yeah. Which is why I've been surprised by these two episodes, because they haven't come out of it well.

• 18:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, and I think, see, I don't blame the Austrians for starting the First World War. I think any serious power faced with the murder of their heir, clearly with the connivance of a country that's basically trying to destabilize them. You know, the United States, France, whoever, they're always going to respond. However, the irresponsibility is to respond when basically you don't have the capacity to beat anybody. The Austrians couldn't even beat Serbia. The lack of seriousness of Conrad and the other generals, basically, in starting all this.

• 19:10Tom Holland?

  But I mean, ignoring Russia is mad, isn't it?

• 19:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Totally. It was ridiculous. And you can say, well, it's a result of their tunnel vision or their paranoia or their fear of, you know, disintegration or whatever. But even so, to just be in such a massive spasm of panic that you basically, you know, press the suicide button is insane. Because actually, just the, I mean, I was going to talk about this anyway, but this is a perfect link. Look at what happened to their army. Almost a million men had marched north against the Russians and fewer than two thirds of them returned. A hundred thousand of them were taken prisoner, 250,000 killed or wounded. And as they return, you know, you made the zombie apocalypse analogy. The Austro-Hungarian army that marches back to Pshemyshul is just an absolute horde of zombies stumbling through

• 19:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  the dust. They've all got typhus or cholera. Some of the regiments have lost all their officers, more than half their men. They've all got diarrhea. They haven't washed for weeks. They're in shock. They're humiliated. And in the dust behind them, they're leaving this trail of dying horses and dead men. So they get back to this city. And then Conrad says, right, we will withdraw, we'll go back into the Carpathian Mountains. However, we have to stop the Russians from following us. Because if the Russians get into these mountains and they secure the passes and they go down the other side, they'll be into the Hungarian Plain, they'll be heading straight for Budapest. And then it's kind of game over for the Austrian Empire.

• 20:34Tom Holland?

  And that would then be game over for Germany as well, do you think?

• 20:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Germany fighting on alone for a cause in which its main allies that started the war is now out.

• 20:43Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 20:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hard to see how that, I mean, that could be the end of the First World War, I think, very plausibly. Conrad says, right, we have to stop them. And the place that we stop them is obviously the citadel, Jimešul, which we have built for this purpose. So I'm going to leave behind 130,000 men, orders to hold the fortress at all costs. Now, these are not crack units. These are the dregs that he's leaving behind there, the reserves, they're men in their late 30s and early 40s. Most of them are Hungarian, Polish or Ukrainian peasants, but they're officers, Tom, they're the worst people in the world. And I quote, academics, businessmen and middling state officials.

• 21:23Tom Holland?

  I don't know, if you want a heroic defence of a fortress against Russian hordes, those are exactly the people I'd turn to.

• 21:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  When I look at Briston's academics, I see, I see men of high end resolution and will. Anyway, yeah, so these, this is who's going to defend the Austrian Empire. So in the next few days, they make their preparations. Here's an interesting sign of the disintegration of the empire. They say, we're going to clear all the villages around the perimeter. Now, the people who live in these villages are Ukrainian peasants. And they basically say to these guys, you've got to clear out, let's tell them at bayonet point, you've got to clear out. If you don't clear out, we're going to blow up your village or burn it to the ground. And actually, by this point, the soldiers are blaming those peasants for their own defeat. They say, these Ukrainians are no good, they're traitors, they've been, they've been helping the Russians with flags. They've been sending smoke signals to the Russians.

• 22:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  This, I think, is not true, but it's a sign of how, I guess we've said before, diversity is not the Austro-Hungarian Empire's strength at all. It's something that we often celebrate in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, you know, when people write these sorts of-

• 22:26Tom Holland?

  Yeah, it's brilliant if you're in a cafe debating psychology or economics, but it's less good if you have to defend a frontier.

• 22:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  Correct. On the 17th of September, the first Cossacks appeared on the horizon. This was the advance guard of General Brusilov's Third Russian Army. Brusilov is the outstanding Russian general of the war. He has yet another absolutely colossal moustache.

• 22:51Tom Holland?

  But does he have breathing problems?

• 22:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, he breathes superbly. He's got wonderful breath.

• 22:56Tom Holland?

  So that's what sets him above the crowd?

• 22:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Correct. He's a cavalryman. He's half Polish, actually, Brusilov. I didn't know that. Anyway, so he orders his field guns to start pummeling the city. And when I say pummeling, I mean, they fired about 45,000 shells in four days, which is obviously terrifying if you're a civilian. It was even worse for the people in these forts because they're very claustrophobic, these forts, people in these kind of low tunnels and chambers. Alexander Watson quotes a guy called Second Lieutenant Bruno Prochaska, who said, "It was like we were being pounded by a colossal battering ram." He said, "We wish we were outside, actually, in the trenches. Death would be easier in the open air than in this cramped, suffocating box." But actually, in the trenches, it's even worse. The shells are kind of raining down on these guys.

• 23:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  He tells the story of an entire platoon, which was destroyed by just two shells. The officers collapsed and sh- fainted in shock, seeing what had happened to the men. One minute, the men were all standing there. The next minute, the men have been blown into bits and the bits are hanging from the trees all around them. So really hideous.

• 23:57Tom Holland?

  Bloody shreds of flesh, intestine and brain parts.

• 24:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes. Yeah, I decided not to read that out, but you read it out, which is nice.

• 24:03Tom Holland?

  It's a hell of war, Dominic, and it's good to bring it home to people.

• 24:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, you're right. And this terrible shell shock. So again, another story from the book The Fortress, there's a guy who's a corporal. He's in his 30s. He's the veteran of many battles, so he is brave. He's dragged into the garrison hospital and he's shouting, "I want to go home." And then he took all his clothes off. He tore up his underwear.

• 24:23Tom Holland?

  Oh, my God.

• 24:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  He started singing hymns and then attacked the orderlies.

• 24:26Tom Holland?

  So he's like the governor of the Bank of England in 1974.

• 24:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, no, it wasn't the governor of the Bank of England, it was the head of the civil service.

• 24:34Tom Holland?

  Head of the civil service.

• 24:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  William Armstrong.

• 24:37Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Completely acceptable behaviour in Ted Heath's Britain, but not in First World War Austria-Hungary. Anyway, actually, when the Russians launched their ground attack, they didn't get anywhere. They couldn't break through the trenches. The Austrians did very well. They put up a very plucky fight. Some of these forts that they defended, they became kind of legendary. There's a fort called Iwam. And the defence there, I was mean about academics, but the defence was led by somebody called Dr Istvan Bilek, who was a Budapest lawyer. And he led this sort of Helms Deep style defence of this fort.

• 25:10Tom Holland?

  Right.

• 25:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Against the Crimean regiment, kind of hand to hand fighting until they can be relieved by more Hungarian troops. So that's kind of good news for the Austrians. And then they hear tremendous news from the north. Because as we heard last time, Hindenburg and Ludendorff, the crack detectives, have driven the Russians out of East Prussia, at Tannenberg and at the Missouri and Lakes. And now they're moving south towards Warsaw. So the Russians have to lift this siege and they move all their troops north to face the Germans. So for the people of Bzemišl, this is brilliant news. And on the ninth of October, they are relieved by the Austrian field army, which has returned from licking its wounds.

• 25:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  So after a month, the siege appears to be over. And you could ask, well, so what? Does it matter? In his book, The Fortress, Alexander Watson says, it absolutely does matter because if the Russians had taken the fortress then, they would never have had a better chance to strike into the heart of the Habsburg Empire, get to Budapest, knock Austria-Hungary out of the war. The war genuinely could have been over by Christmas. But because they didn't take it, because these blokes, lawyers and whatnot, held out, the Russians have missed their best opportunity to bring the war to a speedy conclusion. However, as we've said before, fortunes change ridiculously quickly on the eastern front.

• 26:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  So by late October, so after barely a month, the pendulum has swung again. The Russians have just won two victories that nobody's ever heard of that we talked about last time, Tom. The Battle of the Vistula and then the Battle of Wuj. So now the Russians are heading towards Krakow and they're actually not that far from the German border. These are, by the way, are massive engagements. A million people fought in these battles. It's insane, isn't it, that nobody's ever heard of them? I mean, I'm sure they have in Russia, but not here. So now the Russians are back. And now, yet again, the Austrians have to retreat. Now, at this point, some of the officers in the fortress said, come on, we held out once, but we cannot handle a second siege. We've run up, we don't have the supplies, we don't

• 27:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  have... And actually, since we've given the army time to rebuild anyway, what's the point? Why don't we evacuate the city, evacuate the garrison, blow up the forts and cut our losses? The problem is that the success of that first siege was the only victory for the Austrians worth celebrating in the early days of the war. So it's become completely bound up with Conrad's personal prestige. His only chance of basically, you know, building up his reputation is to hold on to Pusheemishul. And he, if he'd written it off, possibly he would have been sacked then, and then it's goodbye marrying Gina. So he says, right, I want you to prepare for another siege. I'm sure you'll do brilliantly. You know, you were heroic and successful last time. I'm sure

• 28:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  you will be again. The next day, however, the garrison told, you should write your farewell letters to your families. Which I don't think inspires much confidence. That same day, which is the 3rd of November, posters go up across the city telling all the civilians to get out.

• 28:19Tom Holland?

  Again, that's not a good sign.

• 28:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  No. And the police literally go door to door, saying if you haven't packed, you know, get to the station. Come on, just grab your essentials and go.

• 28:27Tom Holland?

  Well, it's lucky that the Austrian railway service is performing heroically in these early months of the war then, isn't it? Because surely they've laid on loads of trains and there won't be a mad crush trying to get on the trains.

• 28:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, well, no. So total pandemonium. Not enough trains. They have to leave behind 30,000 people. And in his book Catastrophe, Max Hastings tells an awful story about this woman who fights her way into this carriage with her three children. She finally gets in the place in the carriage. Train starts pulling out. She breathes a sigh of relief. She looks around, she can see only two children just out the window. On the platform, she can see the youngest child, her three-year-old son, standing there weeping in terror.

• 29:09Tom Holland?

  Oh, no.

• 29:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  All the time, the Russians are coming. And by the 8th of November, they have encircled the fortress once again. And now, to quote Alexander Watson, darkness descended over the conquered land.

• 29:22Tom Holland?

  So Dominic, huge tension. Can this great Austrian fortress withstand a second siege? Will they be able to hold out or will the Russians break through? And you mentioned how there are large numbers of Jews in this landscape and you've intimated that things don't turn out well for them. So we'll hear about them too. So come back after the break.

• 29:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by Uber. Now, do you know that feeling when someone shows up for you when you need it most?

• 29:59Tom Holland?

  We all need that sometimes and Uber knows it.

• 30:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered. It's showing up no matter what.

• 30:08Tom Holland?

  Like for your long-distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down.

• 30:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up. Where there's a will, we're on our way.

• 30:21Tom Holland?

  Uber, on our way. Download the app today.

• 30:29Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society.

• 30:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, Tom, as you know, in the Middle Ages, it could take you years if you're a monk to create a manuscript. You'd have to copy it out, word by word. And then after all that, the margins would be ready and you'd put all kind of decorative elements and all kinds of gills and stuff in the margins and it would look fantastic.

• 30:48Tom Holland?

  So it might take often years to finish, but the finished product would then last for centuries. And that is pretty much what the Folio Society does today, only of course, with slightly less parchment and fewer quills.

• 31:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, the Folio Society takes some of the greatest works ever written, things like George Orwell's 1984, or the quests in J R R Tolkien, or Frank Herbert's Dune. And their team of editors and designers and artisans, they craft books that are so beautiful, they're like works of art in their own right.

• 31:23Tom Holland?

  So each one is carefully designed with slip cases, award-winning illustrations, and covers that honour the stories inside. It doesn't just protect them.

• 31:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  So if like me and like Tom, you think that a book should look as good as it reads, then the Folio Society very much speaks your language.

• 31:43Tom Holland?

  Explore the world's most loved stories in the most beautiful form, only at foliosociety.com.

• 31:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  That is foliosociety.com.

• 31:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.

• 32:07Tom Holland?

  Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know, coffee. You make it, add milk, drink it. Nothing more, except...

• 32:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Except when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino. You can also discover videos about how in the 1700s, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it.

• 32:33Tom Holland?

  And suddenly, you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialised.

• 32:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us. And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com forward slash discover more.

• 33:01Tom Holland?

  Around eight o'clock in the morning, the Cossacks arrived in Dembitza. The Jews, who had already survived the initial agonies, were gathered in the synagogues with their wives and children. The Cossacks plunged into the Jewish houses with their horses and weapons. And what was not screwed down was smashed and flung onto the open street. Like wild beasts, they threw themselves on the defenceless women. Those who defended themselves were stabbed and trampled to death. Spirited women plunged through windows, badly injuring themselves. But they too were not left alone by the monsters. And many died in the synagogue square in agonies of pain. Then the synagogue street was set alight. And after a short while, a whole row of houses stood ablaze.

• 33:46Tom Holland?

  So this is not from a record of 1940 or 1942. It is from the autumn of 1914. And it is an eyewitness account of the Russian occupation of the town of Dembitza, which was then in Galicia. And Dominic, we've talked a lot about armies, about battles, about all of that. Flattering of flags, the piping of flutes, the fluttering of feathers in Tyrolean caps. But what we haven't talked about is what all this means for ordinary civilians. And I'm guessing nothing good.

• 34:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Nothing good at all. No, and it's actually a chance to talk about war aims and what people are wanting from the war. So the Russians have come west with the, by far, I think, the most radical transformational agenda of any major combatant. As soon as they got into Galicia, their new governor of the occupied territory, who was called Count Georgy Bobrinsky. Made this clear right away. He gathered, when you've gone into Lviv, he gathered all the local bigwigs and the bishops, and he made a speech and he said, "The lands of Eastern Galicia are an eternal part of a single great Russia. In these lands, the true population was always Russian. Thus, the administration of this land should be based on Russian principles. We'll introduce the Russian language, Russian law, and the Russian system."

• 35:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Definite resonances, yeah. Now, this was very bad news for the Poles, the people who dominated the political and economic life of the towns of Galicia. It was extremely bad news for the Ukrainians, because they were told, "You don't exist. Your church, your Greek Catholic church, your Ukrainian language, your separate Ukrainian, or as people would have said then, Ruthenian, identity, all of these things, which interestingly had been not just tolerated, but often encouraged by the Austro-Hungarians as a counterweight to the Poles, all of these things will now be erased. From now on, you are Russian, whether you like it or not." Now, if it's bad for them, it is unbelievably bad for the third ethnic group in Galicia,

• 35:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  which are the Jews. Austria-Hungary was not exactly a paradise for Jews, because we'd talked before when we did the Rise of Nazism, about the influence of Vienna's mayor, Karl Nuga, on Hitler, this kind of populist antisemitic mayor.

• 36:02Tom Holland?

  But isn't part of that because there is a resentment of Jews in Vienna, say, who've done incredibly well?

• 36:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 36:09Tom Holland?

  So Freud, Mahler.

• 36:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Massive cultural figures. Jews are very prominent in the empire's high culture. There's clearly a place for them in a multinational empire, like the Habsburg Empire, and they're very loyal to the dynasty. So Franz Joseph had lifted a lot of the existing punitive laws against Jews. Franz Joseph had made a pilgrimage, effectively, to Jerusalem. He made a point of meeting Jewish leaders. So there is, you know, there's clearly, Austria-Hungary is a relatively warm and welcoming home, if you're an Eastern European Jew. The Russian Empire takes a very different approach to religious diversity. Russia is comfortably the most antisemitic country in Europe at this point. It's here in 1903,

• 36:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  and it's no accident that conspiracy theorists faked the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I think the interesting thing about Russian antisemitism is that it's obviously partly rooted in history, but it's also a very modern phenomenon. And a lot of historians say the reason it becomes so intense is that Russia is changing so much in the late 19th century. Economic change, industrialization, urbanization, a lot of people who are losing out and they, the Jews become scapegoats. So from the 1880s in Russia, the harshest antisemitic laws in Europe, and then a wave upon wave of pogroms. So Kiev in 1881, Kishinev very famously in 1903, Odessa in 1905, hundreds of people killed.

• 37:36Tom Holland?

  And this is why there are kind of waves of immigration, are there, coming to Britain and then even more to the United States?

• 37:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. So if you're, you know, a Jewish villager or a townsman or whatever in 1914 in Galicia, and you hear the Russians are coming, you are terrified. And people have a particular dread of the Cossacks. You open this half by doing a reading about the Cossacks because the Cossacks see themselves as the defenders of Russian imperialism and Russian orthodoxy, and they have a blood-soaked reputation. They have been the shock troops in lots of these pogroms. And as we've heard, they completely live up to this horrendous billing. As soon as they cross the frontier, there were stories about them attacking Jewish villages, looting shops, killing people, raping people, all of this. And the very worst pogrom was in

• 38:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Lviv at the end of September. There was a, it's, it's a common story in the First World War that there'll be a rumor goes around, oh, our troops are being attacked by partisans or whatever. So this is what happened in Lviv, and there the Cossacks were given permission. The, their commander said, okay, the gloves are off, you can go and punish people, do what you like. And they ran amok, they slaughtered almost 50 people, and they rounded up 300 people for deportation to the east. It's not yet genocidal, it's nothing, I think that would be a massive overstatement. However, the direction of travel, I would say, is pretty ominous. A lot of the Russian commanders are obsessively antisemitic. The chief of staff, who's a guy called General Yanush Kevich, is even by Russian standards,

• 39:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  he's a pathological antisemite. And so there's no effort made to moderate the violence at all. In fact, officers will have Jewish people, they'll blackmail them, they'll loot their shops and houses, they have them whipped in the streets, hanged and so on. And then, in the spring of 1915, the Russians begin mass deportations, huge deportations of Jews to camps in the east. So this is the shadow that is hanging, this is the threat that awaits the people of Shemishul at the turn of 1914 into 1915. Of course, the Russians haven't taken the city yet. They have learned their lesson from the first siege. They're not going to do this kind of frontal attack. They're going to starve the defenders out.

• 39:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, the guy commanding the fortress is a man called General Kusmanek, who is a policeman's son from Transylvania. He was an archive man, Tom. He was a desk officer who had worked in the Austrian War Archive.

• 40:02Tom Holland?

  So we have laughed at the idea of academics and lawyers manning the defences, but actually they're coming out of this tremendously well, aren't they?

• 40:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  It was a cheap shot, but irresistible, but maybe cheap nonetheless. So this bloke does very well. He says, you know, he runs the city very smoothly under the circumstances. He sets up soup kitchens for people who haven't got any food. He has nuns to cook hundreds of meals for them a day. However, he's really up against it because the conditions, it's your classic kind of siege conditions. So piles of unburied excrement in the streets, disease rampant, drains overflowing, nothing to eat, all of this kind of thing. You know, the stuff you would see in sieges going back to antiquity, but there are some new elements. So at the beginning of December, the 1st of December, people look up, they hear something

• 40:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  in the sky above the city, and they see a plane, and people come out actually to stare at it, to watch it. And then they see these little grey balls falling out of the plane, and somebody suddenly realizes what they are and shouts, "They're bombs!", and there are people running in panic and whatnot. And this is one of the first instances in history of the aerial bombing of civilians. So in all, the Russians launched 300 bombing raids on Shemyshul. They were hoping, I think, to hit the bridges.

• 41:20Tom Holland?

  But they don't, do they?

• 41:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, they miss. I mean, just throwing a ball out of a plane. I mean, it's never going to land where you think it's going to land. However, you know, it's not comedy. A dozen people were killed, two dozen people were injured. There's a story, I think it's in Alexander Watson's account, of a girl. She had half her head cleaved off by shrapnel and had to be rushed twitching to hospital. But the bombings, as always in history, the bombings terrify and appall people, but they don't sap their will to resist. Because people think, well, the Russians are barbarians, they're monsters to do this. You know, we can never give in to them. So Christmas comes and the city is still under siege.

• 41:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  In Eastern Europe, the big day is Christmas Eve. The defenders tried to put up trees and they were given special food, but it's all a bit sad. Alexander Watson quotes this guy, Lieutenant Stanislaw Gajac. And he says in his diary, I couldn't stop thinking about my wife and children. The day was really difficult, even getting through it was so hard. He gathers his kind of platoon or whatever to celebrate the holy day and everybody starts crying. And then he had dinner with his fellow officers and they tried to light candles and sing carols. But again, they all start crying. Mostofsky, Stumpf, the captain, all quietly cried. And this is the one moment in the story, actually, where the Russians, belying their reputation, behaved, I think, very well.

• 42:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Because when Austrian patrols went out of the city that day, they found little parcels of bread and sausages and sugar in no man's land with cards wishing them a happy Christmas.

• 42:48Tom Holland?

  Oh, that is nice.

• 42:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  And Alexander Watson quotes a lovely example. Gallant knights, at so great a holiday as Christmas Eve, we wish you and your families the best. Wish you you return healthy to your nearest and dearest. We shall not disturb you on Christmas Day as you eat your supper and talk of your loved ones. As a mark of our fraternal greetings, we break this holy wafer with you, your comrades outside the seedless gfortz.

• 43:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  I mean, that's quite sweet in a way, isn't it?

• 43:15Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So another Christmas truce on the Eastern Front as well as one on the Western Front.

• 43:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. And as on the West, the Western Front, as soon as it's over, things get very dark indeed. Once we're into January, they've run out of food inside the fort. They basically start eating all their horses.

• 43:29Tom Holland?

  But they haven't got on to the rats yet.

• 43:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  They haven't got on to the rats. No, it's not quite the siege of Leningrad in the Second World War. But unless something drastically changes, Shmishel is doomed. But you know what? General Conrad is, is waiting in the wings for another crack. He hasn't given up. So he's going to come to the rescue. And if there's one man you want to come to the rescue.

• 43:49Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's this man with an unbroken track record of catastrophic failure.

• 43:54Tom Holland?

  Gandalf the White of the Eastern Front.

• 43:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  So his men have been holed up in the Carpathian Mountains. They've been camping in heavy snow and driving rain. They've all got frostbite and hypothermia. Another commander might say, I'll let them rest a bit and thaw out before throwing them back into the fray. But Conrad, as we know, is a born optimist. So on the 23rd of January, he says, right, I want 175,000 men to go down out of the mountains, retake the mountain passes from the Russians, get down into Galicia, relieve the city. By any standards, this is a big, a big ask, as people say. And actually, what happens next is the Carpathian Campaign. Now, again, this is one of those things that I think in the English speaking world, most people have no idea this ever happened.

• 44:39Tom Holland?

  I put my hand up, I plead guilty.

• 44:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's one of the most horrific campaigns of the whole war. So hundreds of thousands of Austro-Hungarians trying to fight their way out of these mountains. They're in snow blizzards. The temperatures are below minus 20 degrees Celsius. They don't have winter gear. I mean, we talk about people having the wrong shoes, Tom, but a lot of them have got shoes made of paper. Would you wear a paper shoe in a snow blizzard?

• 45:05Tom Holland?

  No, I wouldn't. I, I did wear a pair of trainers that came to pieces when I walked up Mount Helvellyn in the Lake District.

• 45:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  All right. So you know exactly what they've been through.

• 45:14Tom Holland?

  And there was kind of sleet blowing in and we ran into a squad of the SAS who told me off.

• 45:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  Said, they told, oh.

• 45:21Tom Holland?

  Yeah, they said, you're an idiot. Look at your shoes.

• 45:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh no.

• 45:24Tom Holland?

  Which makes me ask, why is their kit not better? Because surely if anyone is used to Alpine conditions, it's the Austrians.

• 45:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's a Tyrolean Kyzhege. Their shoes have rotted, they've rotted and their supply networks have failed and, you know.

• 45:39Tom Holland?

  Haven't they got kind of nice ski gear?

• 45:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  They have not, they have not. Well, I'll give you the proof of this. After two weeks, they've lost two thirds of their strength. Some of them have been killed, some of them have died of disease, but loads of them have actually frozen to death in their sleep. Now, we began with your favourite regiment, didn't we? The Kyzhege.

• 45:58Tom Holland?

  The guys with the feathers.

• 45:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  They've been involved in this because they're freezing to death. I mean, you'd think they'd be used to this in the Tyro, but no. And I mentioned Nick Lloyd's book, The Eastern Front. He quotes one of their memoirs and would you like to read it, Tom, since you love them so much?

• 46:11Tom Holland?

  The scene was suffused with three colours. The ash and white of the endless fields of snow. The grave black of the endless mountain forests. The blood red of the flames of battle. The sky stretched boundlessly, mercilessly over the death and suffering of hundreds and thousands of soldiers. The Carpathian Front consumed men at an alarming rate. It wore them down like a hammer, day in and day out, week after week, blow after blow, coming down on them with unceasing vigor. So that is the worst ski holiday of all time, isn't it?

• 46:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is a terrible skiing holiday. And actually, the blokes who are dying are not just from the Tyro. They're not just Austrians, they are Hungarians, they're Czechs, they're Poles, they're Croats, whatever. And as every day passes, their faith in the army and their loyalty to the empire and to the monarchy is just leeching away. Of course it is, because they have been, as they say, betrayed by their own commanders for a cause that seems to them baffling. Now, meanwhile, back at the fortress, the people there are freezing too. They don't have winter uniforms, they've only got their summer gear. They are these sort of ghostly, shrunken figures. They're finishing off the horses now. They're having to dilute their flour with birch wood. They're collapsing every day with starvation.

• 47:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  25,000 men are in the hospital with hunger and exposure. And the Russians are just pounding them the whole time with their heavy guns. So by mid-March, Konrad finally has to accept defeat and he sends a message to the fortress and he says, you know, we're not coming. Basically, you're doomed. But then he says, very like Hitler at Stalingrad or something, imperial honor demands that you don't surrender, you should go down fighting. And actually, this bloke, General Kuzmanek, the archivist, says, fine. And he actually cobbles together some assault troops and says, right, we'll do one last breakout. This is a disaster. They get lost in the snow. The Russians basically unleash a storm of gunfire at them and they have to fall

• 48:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  back into the fortress. So on the 21st of March, Kuzmanek convenes his senior officers and they all agree, there's no point going on, like it's all over, it's been months and we're not going to be relieved. But they decide to go out literally with a bang. They want to destroy everything of value before they surrender and make sure that the Russians march into a ruined city. So overnight, they empty their guns at the Russian lines, sort of thunder of the guns, people said was so intense that nobody could sleep. And then at six o'clock the next morning, the series of enormous explosions rip through these forts, like people said it was like volcanoes erupting around the city, huge gray clouds of smoke and rubble raining down. And then they blew up the bridges over the

• 48:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  river San. People said it was like the day of judgment, kind of pillars of fire and black smoke everywhere and the earth torn open and all of this. And at breakfast, Kuzmanek sent a message to the Russians. He said, I surrender the open city and await your command with no conditions. And then at nine o'clock, the Russians marched into the centre of this city. Now, what happened to the defenders? It's an interesting story. A hundred and 20,000 men, masses, taken prisoner. And these were just some of 2 million Austro-Hungarian

• 49:27Tom Holland?

  Two million.

• 49:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  prisoners of war. Yeah, mind boggling. Two million people.

• 49:31Tom Holland?

  I mean, so large that the numbers just ceased to have any meaning.

• 49:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right, exactly. You can't imagine what does it look like? You don't, you can't even get your head around it. Now, officers by and large were well treated. Remember when we did Peter the Great and the Great Northern War, what happened to the Swedes?

• 49:44Tom Holland?

  Yes.

• 49:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's actually the same story.

• 49:46Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  The officers tend to be well treated. So Kuzmanek ended up under house arrest in Kiev. But the men, different story. They were driven with whips by Cossacks to the railway stations and then packed into cattle trucks to go to camps in Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan.

• 50:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  By the time they got there, many were dead from starvation or cold or whatever. And in the camps, many thousands more died of malaria or typhus or dysentery. And the very worst fate awaited Germans and Hungarians. They were singled out. A lot of them were sent to work on this railway line that was being built from Murmansk in the north. And that was transporting military supplies from Arctic convoys from Britain.

• 50:28Tom Holland?

  Okay, so this is again a kind of prefiguring of the Second World War.

• 50:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, it is. And they worked in the most horrendous conditions. So they didn't even get to sleep in kind of huts. They had to bury into the snow, like, sort of carve out burrows in the snow to sleep. If they faltered, they were whipped. If they fell ill, they were denied food. Basically, you know, you're finished. And some historians say the conditions in this Murmansk railway were even worse in nineteen fifteen, nineteen sixteen or whatever than in the Gulags under Stalin. It was kind of that bad.

• 50:58Tom Holland?

  And how many survived? And what happens to them?

• 51:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Thousands died. I don't think there's exact figures. So with all these casualty figures, there's no precise number. And some people ended up going home. So the most famous prisoners of wars to go back home were people called the Czech Legion. So they ended up, I mean, they basically, they became a factor in the Russian Civil War, fighting their way on these armored trains east. Because the only way they could get back to Czechoslovakia, the newly created Czechoslovakia, was to go east all the way through Russia and then round the world. And they ended up, you know, being a kind of big faction in the Russian Civil War. It's just bonkers. But let's go back to the fall of the citadel. The news of Seemichel's fall was front page news across the empire. Total shock. Franz Joseph wept for two days

• 51:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  because he knew that this was catastrophic for the image of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy. They'd pinned all their hopes on this place. It was their pride and joy. And now it had become a symbol of decay.

• 51:55Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  So this is a war that they started. They've lost, just in three months, the first three months of 1915, they've lost 800,000 men, they're running out of officers. And what is worse, when they lose Galicia in the northeast, a lot of their food came from these, this, these kind of farmlands. So this is very bad news for the, the city people in Budapest and Vienna who depend upon the food supply from the east. And what is more, hundreds of thousands of refugees, many of them Jewish, now flood into the sort of heart of the empire. And as they, they are very unpopular in other parts of the empire, in Vienna and Budapest, but also in the small towns and villages in

• 52:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  which they settle. So there are all kinds of ethnic tensions piled on top of the existing ethnic tensions within Austria-Hungary. And so as early as 1915, you can see a sort of sense of order breaking down. And the Austrians allies, the Germans, at this point start saying, well, they're finished, they're done. So the German liaison officer at the Habsburg Military Headquarters wrote to Berlin and he said, this empire is so rotten and so decayed, it can no longer be helped. You know, even if we win the war, this empire is not going to last.

• 53:13Tom Holland?

  And what about Conrad? And how does Gina take it?

• 53:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  Conrad is still going. I mean, Conrad stays in office for another couple of years, I think, unbelievably. And what Gina makes of all this-

• 53:23Tom Holland?

  Not impressed, I imagine.

• 53:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Probably not impressed, but I think there's lots of censorship, of course, so she probably doesn't know what's going on. Conrad, interesting, you know who Conrad blames for all this?

• 53:31Tom Holland?

  The Jews?

• 53:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, blames the Germans.

• 53:33Tom Holland?

  Germans? Okay, that's original.

• 53:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  He says, they, they could have given us more help. I mean, I think he's being a tiny bit ungrateful because the Germans, the Germans basically torched their own empire to help the Austrians destroy their own, yeah, monarchy. So I think he's being a little bit-

• 53:49Tom Holland?

  War, war, war.

• 53:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's what he said. So all you care about, General Conrad von Hudsonorf. Now meanwhile, I mentioned the circling vultures last time, and I think I might use the same metaphor this time. Well, I have in the notes, yeah. So a month after the fall of this fortress, which of course is news around the world, the Italians sign a deal, a secret deal, to join the entente. And in return, they will get large swathes of Austria-Hungary, especially along the Adriatic and Istria Dalmatia. And a month after that, Italy finally enters the war against Austria-Hungary. And if you thought the Carpathian Front was bad, the Italian Front's Oh, mad, absolutely mad, blowing the tops off mountains. I've walked through a great tunnel

• 54:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  that the Italians dug out at the side of a mountain. And I'm assuming that the Austrians did the same and it's all absolutely for nothing. The two worst armies in history, just killing. Yeah. There's amazing stories in this book, The White War. The one that sticks in my mind is a whole load of Italians, like thousands of Italians, advancing up this sort of limestone scree mountain. And the Austrians at the top machine gun, shouting down, saying, please stop coming, like we will kill you all. Just go back. Don't stop. Don't come. And the Italians keep going. And the Austrians just say, well, okay. And they kill them all. Wow, you keep saying it's a terrible story. I mean, we've already had terrible stories, but there are so many more to come.

• 55:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  So let's just end with the city, Sheemishul. A chance to say it again, one more time. So, a month after the city fell, Nicholas II turned up. He went first to Lviv and then he went to this fortress and he toured the defences. And all the people had been told, hang out Russian flags from your windows. And all the schools had been told to mark the day and the children instructed on how to welcome their new emperor. Nicholas, of course, is as sort of banal and pooterish as ever. He said, he's found it very interesting and very picturesque. But this trip really mattered because the authorities used it as a spur for Russification. Nicholas used the opportunity to issue a proclamation, there is no Galicia, there is rather a great Russia

• 55:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  to the Carpathians. The people of Sheemishul were told, you must stop Russian time, Russian customs, Russian festivals, the shops must have signs in Cyrillic, Polishness must be eliminated, Polish elites deported, and Ukrainian identity erased completely. Ukrainian schools must now teach in Russian. And what about the Jews? Well, they pay the heaviest price of all. Since January, the Russians have been deporting Jews eastwards. But in Shemishul, they go further than anywhere else. This is the most obvious example of deportation in the entire war. In 10 days, they rounded up 17,000 people and transported them east.

• 56:42Tom Holland?

  And why are they doing that?

• 56:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  They don't want these lands to have any Jews in them. They want to corral the Jews.

• 56:48Tom Holland?

  Is that for ideological reasons or because they see the Jews as Austro-Hungarian sympathizers who can't be won over?

• 56:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Both. They don't like Jews anyway, but they know that the Jews are loyal to the Habsburg Empire and they want to get rid for that reason. But to stress that first point, they don't like Jews anyway. And many of these, they come with antisemitism as part of their intellectual repertoire. So by May, there is not a single Jewish person left in this city.

• 57:16Tom Holland?

  And what happens to the Jews who are deported?

• 57:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Some of them, I think, do get home because there are definitely Jews in Shemishul by the 1930s, though not after the 1940s. So some of them must have got back. I don't actually know exactly how they did that. But the irony of all this, it was all for nothing. It really was all for nothing. Because less than two weeks after the Tsar's visit, the Germans under August von Mackensen, and again, a bloke with the wrong name, launched a massive offensive in Poland, smashed the Russians, scattered their armies. The Germans went deep into occupied Galicia. And on the 2nd of June, the Germans in turn marched into Shemishul.

• 58:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  One of their commanders afterwards said, "The joy of the liberated people was indescribable. Wherever we went, German soldiers were embraced and decorated with flowers and then handed gifts." And then he adds the killer line, "I didn't see any Austrian soldiers." And that tells a wider story. On paper, the Austrians are back and they've got their city back, but it's actually the Germans who've done it and the Germans who are the real masters now. And the prestige and the legitimacy of the Habsburg Empire will never, ever be rebuilt.

• 58:31Tom Holland?

  And so that means that all these various lands with all their different peoples, their different languages, their different customs, that essentially the glue that had held them together is going very, very rapidly. And that, of course, has profound implications for what happens after the war, whether the the central powers win or lose.

• 58:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Completely, I completely agree. So in this story, you've seen a lot of elements of things we associate with the Second World War, racial ideology, deportations, ethnic cleansing, pogroms and stuff. These, if you're Galician, these began in the 1910s. But as you say, since there is no rebuilding the multicultural society before the war, that means now the gloves are off and there's going to be a very, very bitter fight to see who controls it. So this is what happens when the empire collapses in Plemmshemishul and its environs. There's fighting between Poles and Ukrainians, then it's caught up in the Polish Bolshevik War, then it's occupied by the Nazis and tens of thousands of its Jewish population murdered.

• 59:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  And this is only kind of scratched the surface of all the horror that lies ahead.

• 59:37Tom Holland?

  Okay, so there are better places to live in the 20th century, basically?

• 59:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  Pretty much anywhere. I mean, that's why Timothy Snyder calls this area the Bloodlands. I think basically you want to live anywhere but here, maybe not the Congo.

• 59:48Tom Holland?

  So that's a very cheery note, Dominic, on which to end this series. But yeah, we are talking about the world going up in flames, aren't we?

• 59:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Tom Holland?

  We began this series by saying this is the great catastrophe, certainly for Europe, but you could also say for, I mean, it is authentically a world war. And I think this series has given a flavour of why it's so terrible. And of course, there is so much slaughter and misery and horror still to come.

• 1:00:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  God, you're really selling it.

• 1:00:19Tom Holland?

  Well, but having said that, having said that, we are going to be back this year with a little more First World War action and we're going to be back for our Christmas Special, we will be looking at the story of the festive truce on the Western Front, asking whether it happened, to what extent the story is true. So a little touch of light.

• 1:00:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  And actually, when we do come back to the First World War, hopefully next year, I mean, there's so much to look forward to, zeppelins, Gallipoli, sinking of the Lusitania, the arrival of the Italians, the wars fighting women, lots of fun things. And as always, members of the Rest is History Club will be able to get those episodes early, won't they?

• 1:00:56Tom Holland?

  Of course they will.

• 1:00:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  Why not sign up now at therestishistory.com?

• 1:01:00Tom Holland?

  Ready for next year, bed down. But next week, something completely different, because Dominic, we will be leaving your backyard, the mountains and bogs and plains of Eastern Europe, and heading to Chatham High Street. Long promise, long awaited, finally to be delivered. And I know the excitement has been building for that. But if you want to listen to it, that's fine. But also, if you'd like to see it, because we've done it on location, you can see Chatham High Street in all its beauty and glory.

• 1:01:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, you should watch it on YouTube, because I have to say, when we did a filming day at Chatham High Street, I think I probably haven't laughed as much as that. Not always for good reasons, since I was about 12. So definitely do watch it.

• 1:01:46Tom Holland?

  I think unmissable. So we will see you then. Bye bye.

• 1:01:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  Bye bye.

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