NBA Draft Reactions and Lots of Pelicans Jokes With Joe House and J. Kyle Mann

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House and J. Kyle Mann live after the first round of the 2025 NBA draft to break down the lottery picks and draft-night moves (3:05). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joe House and J. Kyle Mann Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by State Farm. We are also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatchables that went up on Monday. We did Die Hard with a Vengeance. It was super fun. It was me and Ben, Lathan, and Chris Ryan. And I think I had multiple big mistakes in this one. It's hard to host.

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

  Before, before you, you lump too much vitriol at me. It's hard to host. Sometimes you make mistakes. You're trying to do nine things. And I said in Die Hard 2, the airport was Chicago. It was Washington. I knew this because I did the Die Hard 2 rewatchables. Obviously, I knew it was Washington, but that's the thing. You had moving parts. So I screwed up. And then I think, what's that, that song at the beginning of Die Hard 2? I called it Hot Time, Summer in the City or something? Listen, I'm in my mid 50s now. I'm gonna have a couple doozies every episode now. It's just part of the package. Next rewatchables will be the last one for New York City Month. I'm gonna tell you the movie now, so you have a couple days to watch it. It's pretty obscure, but it's also pretty

• 1:29Bill Simmons?

  well-known and renowned. And it is the definition of an 80s cult movie. It is directed by Martin Scorsese. It's called After Hours, and there's great stories and all kinds of anecdotes about how this movie got made, why, why it didn't hit, and then how it eventually grew. So that is, and it is the ultimate nighttime New York City movie. So that's the last one. You have five days to watch it. It's, I think you gotta rent it, but it's, you can rent it anywhere. It's like four bucks. So After Hours will be the last one on Monday. Coming up on this podcast, Joe House and J. Kyle Mann are gonna come on to recap the 2025.

• 2:11Bill Simmons?

  NBA draft, which, um, which had the potential to be an A plus and be incredible and have all kinds of comedy and craziness. Pretty chalk for a while and then it got goofy and I can't wait to talk about it. So it's all next. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam and then House, Jay Kyle, man, NBA draft coming up. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years and when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist.

• 2:56Bill Simmons?

  Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 3:28Bill Simmons?

  We're live.

• 3:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Joe House is here. I'm Bill Simmons. We are, uh, live after pick 28 of the NBA draft. I waited to see who the Celtics were going to take and they took a Ugo. We're growing up, there was, Ugos were a car that we made fun of and now the Celtics have a pick that doesn't seem like he can shoot. I didn't do a lot of Ugo studying. Anyway, House, um, this was the Cooper flag draft. This was the San Antonio took Dylan Harper and I really want to know how him and De'Aaron Fox are going to coexist draft. This was the, I can't wait to see what happens at three, but I think it's going to be VJ Edgecomb draft and that's what happened. This was the where the hell is Ace Bailey going?

• 4:13Bill Simmons?

  Draft, whereas where you came in, your beloved Washington Wizards, the former Bullets. Ace Bailey seemed like he wanted to come either play for your team or Brooklyn. We're getting a little ace in your pocket and then Utah Danny Ainge, who's like ace doesn't want to play here. He's literally announced he doesn't want to go to Utah. Danny Ainge is like, I'm Danny Ainge. I do whatever the hell I want. He takes him. He grabs him from you. Were you bummed?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  God damn it, Danny Ainge. I mean, Bill Simmons, I was preparing to come on. I was gonna pop a bubble. There was, there was two scenarios under which I was gonna pop a bottle and pop a bubble. I was gonna do both. One was Malawatch. That was my preferred pick for Washington.

• 5:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  But over the course of today, I got so many incoming messages from folks in the know and around the team. And you know, this Ace Bailey thing is legit. It's not a joke. It really could be him arriving in Washington. He said, wait a minute. It's not often that Washington is on the receiving end of some, you know, whatever misjudgments or whatever was driving the potential for Ace Bailey to drop a superstar. By all regards, in terms of this draft, this draft class, yes, the way that everybody was sizing this thing up, a top three selection by every single measure, falling to six, I got so excited.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And then Danny Ainge did a Danny Ainge thing. He just did the smart thing and that was it.

• 5:51Bill Simmons?

  You've set up the right way to evaluate it, which was so often Washington is on the receiving end, dot, dot, dot. And it's the receiving end. You get it rammed right in your rectum. That's what happened.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 6:02Bill Simmons?

  Yet again, it was a rectum ramming.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  I wouldn't go that far. No, I mean, we're kind of prepared for this outcome because a lot of the chatter, Ace was never a reality until the last 24 hours or so, he became more tantalizing.

• 6:17Bill Simmons?

  I know how disappointed you are. You were more than tantalizing.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  I was tantalized. Like I said, I was ready to pop a bubble. I mean, pop a bottle, both of them. Right up until, I mean, I did have chills. I will say, sitting in the moment is like, is this potentially a franchise altering moment for me? It's just like, no, no, of course not.

• 6:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, there were five, five legit ESPN top 100 2024 recruiting class blue chippers in this draft. Plus Canipal, who I think rose up and everybody loved him too.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:50Bill Simmons?

  Ace was the wild card. I read everything. I sent you a long article that somebody wrote. I think the Newark Star Ledger had a feature. I don't know what to make. He, he's combining like 40 things. We've been following basketball for so long, 40 red flags just strewn all over the place. And yet he's just so talented. And this is, you know, that we've seen these guys over and over again. It's like the Michael Beasley syndrome, where you, you just like, ah, I know there's red flags here, but wow, is this guy talented? And he ends up going second in the draft. Danny, knowing Utah has all of these draft picks, all of these pieces, and yet doesn't have like the guy. You have to take a swing at some point.

• 7:35Bill Simmons?

  And he's, they take a swing. I think the thing with Ace, if you're taking him at five, worst case scenario, he's trade bait for a bigger trade, right? If you're, if you're trying to get somebody awesome, that's a centerpiece kind of guy. And that was why I thought, I was really surprised. I mean, we'll go into some of the stuff Brooklyn did, but you know, if, if Brooklyn, I think is one of the teams that would have a chance for Giannis down the road. I just want somebody who can be at number eight, who can be in that Giannis trade and not take the, uh, the project from BYU, who most people had in the 14 and 20 range. We'll talk about them when Kyle Mann gets here. But I liked that. I really thought that was the right pick from Utah. Take the asset.

• 8:17Bill Simmons?

  Worry about it later. What's he gonna do? Not play in the NBA? What's he gonna sit out?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  It was also draft for need. Like they need that, that dynamic playmaking. They need, you know, that, that backcourt help. Uh, and pairing him with Walter Clayton, I mean, Bobby Marks couldn't contain. He popped a bubble on TV, ready to give Utah the, you know, the, the lead position in best draft, uh, through, you know, the, the first 20 picks or so.

• 8:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was nice that Clayton went 18 because. Normally, in the history of the draft, that's the guy who usually goes 33, 34. And we're like, all right, that's stupid. Knippel's the guy who goes like 15th because they, they start talking themselves out of like his athleticism on defense. It seems like people for the most part are getting better at where these guys would go. And then the Nets are like, hold, hold my beer. And they start doing, they start doing their stuff.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Well, now I'm interested in, you know, part of the quiet, you know, things that Smart Utah does in the background is sign Will Hardy to an extension that goes through 2031. And I want to see these kids with Will Hardy in this five out offense.

• 9:27Bill Simmons?

  They gotta sign a therapist for him now, because Ace might be a handful.

• 9:33Bill Simmons?

  Ace, Ace has like, his support team, there's like the agent who's not certified to be an agent. Anytime there's a, you have an agent who's not actually certified to be the agent, I get nervous.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Is that the guy who wanted, wanted a hundred dollars to appear on television? Was it that dude?

• 9:49Bill Simmons?

  It's, there's, there's some stories.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Allegations, allegations have been made.

• 9:53Bill Simmons?

  You know, people can always change their support team as they get older and more established.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Speaking of that, very quick aside, you know who changed his support team?

• 10:03Bill Simmons?

  Who?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  You heard this, Zion Williamson.

• 10:07Bill Simmons?

  He did?

• 10:07Speaker 01

  New agent, look up his new agent.

• 10:10Bill Simmons?

  Did he hire a chef?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, he can get to, he doesn't need a chef. They, they have Ozempic out there now.

• 10:21Bill Simmons?

  I, we, we gotta save New Orleans for Kyle.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I agree, but we're just talking about representation.

• 10:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, when you and I go to dinner and there's some entree or something in the restaurant you have to try. And sometimes it'll be on the, on the table with a bunch of different plates. And you're like, I'm not going to touch that yet. I'm saving it. I'm going to have that. The potatoes au gratin, they're famous for it. I'm not going to have it yet. I'm going to wait. I'm going to eat all these other things. That's New Orleans today.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Great.

• 10:48Bill Simmons?

  New Orleans is the potatoes au gratin. It's the house specialty.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  When they're good.

• 10:51Bill Simmons?

  Don't eat it yet.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  They're so good.

• 10:52Bill Simmons?

  It's over here. I have it on the side of the table. Then we'll get a big spoonful of it later.

• 10:57Bill Simmons?

  But, uh, the Utah.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:59Bill Simmons?

  Danny getting Ace Bailey with the fifth pick, when it seemed like they had thrown their season away. Right? They're in this tank fest. Comes down to the last day and then they drop all the way to five. Your team drops all the way to six. You guys still got blue chip players like Trey Johnson. I don't know what he is. Ultimately, I was saying Russillo on Sunday. He's like the greatest version ever of like those Eddie House sharpshooter type guys. He's way better than obviously.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:25Bill Simmons?

  You know, I'm not sure he'll be finishing around the rim that much for you. And I don't know.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't know where it goes, but I do think he's one of those. You're texting your friends like, oh my God, Trey's getting hot. Trey has eight threes in the second quarter. He's one of those guys.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  I hope that's true. I hope that's true. I mean, Washington finished almost 25 points behind Oklahoma City in net rating, which really seems almost impossible. Almost impossible.

• 11:51Bill Simmons?

  25 points?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yes. And Washington was negative 12 point something and Oklahoma City was positive 12 points. A damn near 25 points behind and Washington.

• 12:03Bill Simmons?

  Congratulations. That's great.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Bottom four in, in, by almost all defensive metrics and bottom two and almost all offensive metrics. So you take the best available and Washington, you know, just bereft of any kind of threat on offense from, uh, both, both, both the two ball and the, and the three ball. So Trey, welcome. Your ability to.

• 12:25Bill Simmons?

  And CJ McCollum, welcome.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  How long is it gonna be here?

• 12:30Bill Simmons?

  Why are you laughing?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  At least a year. He'll be here a year.

• 12:32Bill Simmons?

  Professional scorer?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  I like him and he's gonna come in and be a good mentor to these kids. I mean, it's the reason that I was bummed that Valentinus got traded. He was a good mentor to the kids. CJ, you know, leader of the union guy. He'll be a very good mentor.

• 12:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, leader of the union, great CBA they pulled off there. They gave the league a hard cap. Nobody has any free agency money. Nice job. Yeah, you have Marcus Smart, too. I think it's funny that they're putting together the 2017 Celtics, the team that broke your heart in Washington's last great play.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  With Kelly Olynyk?

• 13:07Bill Simmons?

  Olynyk and Marcus Smart. Maybe we get Avery Bradley back. You might, you might have it. I like the Trey Johnson pick. So I'm gonna start in order in the top, and I'll really try to save New Orleans for when Kyle gets here. But Dallas, Cooper flag goes one. They show the war room. There are some great war room videos today. None better than Brooklyn celebrating over and over again after they took yet another point guard. Just wild celebrations. But they, they showed Nico Harrison. He looks like he's FaceTiming somebody and the whole war room, and he's just grinning like a madman. And you think like, I know we've talked about this a million times, but they trade Luka Doncic, and it's the worst, craziest sports trade.

• 13:51Bill Simmons?

  At least in this decade, it's one of the craziest NBA trades ever. And they end up with Anthony Davis and Max Christie in a 2020 first and Cooper flag. And just fundamentally, it's a trade you would make. I'm not saying it was their intention, but the way it worked out, like they showed all these Dallas fans going to watch the draft. Like, the Dallas fans are now sucked back in. The Cooper flag buzzes nuts. And it's like all the stink from that trade is gone. It's incredible. It's an incredible turn of events.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Not for me.

• 14:19Bill Simmons?

  So incredible. That you had some suspicions about.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Not for me.

• 14:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  That's not all washed away for me. You used the word sucked. I could tell you right now, I, I, well, I won't say what I really think.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're, we're live.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  We're live. We're live.

• 14:34Bill Simmons?

  Save it for texts. Save, save it for our text thread with Jacoby and Verno.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:41Bill Simmons?

  Which is, which is.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  On fire.

• 14:43Bill Simmons?

  NC 17. Um, yeah, anyway, so that, so Dallas, it all works out and they're doing great.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Congratulations.

• 14:51Bill Simmons?

  They're in a conference where there's some, some stinko teams that just seem like they're flailing. Right. Utah's not gonna be good next year. Sacramento doesn't know what the hell they are. You know, San Antonio, by taking Harper and not kind of moving all in, we'll see with Wemby, but I don't think they're a guaranteed playoff team. Phoenix, who now has two centers. We'll talk about that.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  They have more than two. They have, they still have Nick Richards. For some reason, they decided to acquire the Charlotte Hornets entire front court. Like in, in, in less than, than six months.

• 15:26Bill Simmons?

  Right. Charlotte's just trying to get rid of their centers and Phoenix is like, we'll take them. But there's, my point is the West, which I think is deep at the top. I, I do think there's some, there's some room on the bottom half, maybe to maneuver around, which might be nice for, for the Mavs. We'll see with Kyrie. They signed Kyrie to a nice little extension. They're talking about getting a point guard, like a Dennis Schroder, Chris Paul, stopgap guy until Kyrie can come back.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  I heard Malcolm Brogdon and D'Angelo Russell. Those were the names that I, that I saw hit the wire.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  I liked your guy, the guys that you said better than, than either one of Brogdon or, or Russell.

• 16:07Bill Simmons?

  D'Angelo Russell? Like really?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I don't know who wrote that.

• 16:09Bill Simmons?

  We're still gonna do this?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Somebody wrote it.

• 16:11Bill Simmons?

  No, I saw it too. I'm just like, that's, that's your stopgap? Why not just get Chris Paul? Just tell him four months, you can retire in February. Or we'll buy you out. You could be on whatever team you want.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  I'll tell you from the gambling odds perspective.

• 16:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I like the idea of where San Antonio is headed next season more than I like the idea of where Dallas is headed next season.

• 16:33Bill Simmons?

  You mean just for pure over unders for wins?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and, and positioning for, for division and all that kind of stuff. Let me have San Antonio.

• 16:44Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna see if there's ways to bet on this.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  I know that there are.

• 16:48Bill Simmons?

  Conference odds, San Antonio 17 to one, Dallas 20 to one. So your instincts were correct.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Two towel. Interesting.

• 16:55Bill Simmons?

  See, I think San Antonio, if they don't do anything else, it's, I think it's gonna be a little clumsy with all the guards.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Could be.

• 17:01Bill Simmons?

  It's a lot of, lot of guards who can't shoot. It's a team that's gonna take a little while to figure out what it is, but they also might be a trade team in January, February. I'm more bullish on Dallas than you because I think flag can be impactful immediately as a all around guy. I think he can play multiple positions, guard people, defend the rim. I think there's a gafford Anthony Davis flag frontline where they just sort of like, watch this. So that might actually be pretty interesting.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Name their best shot creator. Name their best creator.

• 17:31Bill Simmons?

  Kyrie Irving, who's, who's working out every day, hoping to get his leg back to 100%.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  By when? I mean, this is like the same enthusiasm. I'm gonna go ahead and, and, and, and take a shot. Like, it's the same enthusiasm I keep hearing for Stefan Diggs with the Patriots. When is he gonna play football? Like, you know, why are we talking about Kyrie Irving?

• 17:54Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna bring up your football team. I'm gonna bring up Terry McLaurin, holding out.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  He's got a guy, a giant contract. I mean, he deserves it.

• 18:03Bill Simmons?

  Do you know OKC is plus 130 to win the West next year? That feels like a Mahomes MVP like layaway bet.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  I, I literally had this, this conversation on East Coast Bias with the guys this week. The odds for them to win the title are plus 220 and it's, that's too far. But I am gonna bet them at plus 130 because what if this is the best value on them that you're gonna get the entire season if they come out?

• 18:26Bill Simmons?

  Corollary. Yeah. Take them home's MVP ads right now at five to one. It's the best chance, best odds you're getting.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  It's possible.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, the funny thing is Houston's five to one. So Vegas got so excited by that Durant trade that I personally would not have Houston as the number two title team.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 18:46Bill Simmons?

  They have not been through the wars yet.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Right. I understand the market and I understand why they are where they are, but I also want no part of betting on that. Let's see it. Let me see it a little bit.

• 18:57Bill Simmons?

  No, you go through and I think Minnesota, who is in the top one, probably has the second best odds. Uh, there are Cooper flag odds, by the way.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  For rookie year stuff.

• 19:08Bill Simmons?

  They have, will he record a triple double at any game in 25, 26 is minus 115. I think I would take that.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Minus? I'm not laying odds. Triple double is hard.

• 19:18Bill Simmons?

  I'll get one triple double.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Are they going to make him point forward right away?

• 19:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Like if we see that, if they, if that's what they show us, if he's the creator, if he's the playmaker, they let him be the straw, then hopefully those odds will still be there and we'll, we'll jump on them in, in, in October.

• 19:37Bill Simmons?

  All right. We tangented. So Dylan Harper goes second to San Antonio.

• 19:42Bill Simmons?

  I still feel like there's a Darren Fox. I'm not, I'm not buying, I, I hope Darren Fox is renting. I hope he's renting like Tony Parker's house. I hope he didn't buy a house in San Antonio.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:53Bill Simmons?

  I just don't, I think Dylan Harper's too good. I, I don't, we've already seen Darren Fox try to juggle ball handling stuff with another really good guard and his name was Tyrese Haliburton, who they traded after a season and a half. I don't see those two together.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  He's expiring this year. Is that right?

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, but there was always, people thought there was a wink, wink that they were going to take care of him after, but.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  And maybe, maybe so, but as, as we sit here right now, it's, it's not in, infeasible that he.

• 20:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, they should trade him to Brooklyn because Brooklyn took three point guards and Danny Wolfe was a point center. Maybe they'll want Darren Fox trying to collect him. Um, I'm fine with San Antonio saying, we don't know what we're doing yet. We're going to give, we're going to just throw these dudes out and look at it. But it was the right pick. Um, did you know, when did you find out Ron Harper was his dad?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Oh, coming into the season.

• 20:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Like, we knew, we knew ahead of time.

• 20:47Bill Simmons?

  I felt like it was underplayed. Like, Ron Harper was a massive, massive part of a couple MJ Bulls title teams. He's of, like, when, when we were in college and he was initially on the Cavs and then got, was in the Danny Ferry trade, went to the Clippers and was just a really fun two-guard. And had a really, really good career. And it's just weird. I, I felt like they could have spent two minutes on that on the draft telecast instead of all the other dumb shit they did, which we'll talk about later.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  I would have liked more of, of him with his brother, Ron Harper Jr. I didn't forget about the dad.

• 21:26Bill Simmons?

  A lot of Harper stuff. I, I was in on any of the Harper subplots.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 21:30Bill Simmons?

  All right. Number three, this is where the draft got interesting. Although, not really interesting.

• 21:35Bill Simmons?

  Not really that interesting to me because I predicted this a long time ago, VJ Edgecombe going to Philly at.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:41Bill Simmons?

  Just a classic. Checked a lot of the Daryl boxes. Maxey, Edgecombe and McCain.

• 21:49Bill Simmons?

  As a young, up and coming, arrow pointing up backcourt. It's pretty nice.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  My question to you is, I thought that we might get some inkling of what direction Philadelphia might go in, in terms of solving their identity crisis. And we did, we got nothing. We got them making the smart value pick, you know, the, the pure Daryl Morey pick. They still have an identity crisis that they, they need to solve for, right?

• 22:16Bill Simmons?

  I think they were open to every possible scenario with that pick. And didn't get an offer that they loved and didn't see a reason to trade backwards to pick somebody, didn't see a veteran, any of that stuff. I just think that it was what it was. And then you take the best guy, and I think that's the guy, he, Charlotte's taking him if he's at four, Utah's taking him if he's at five. So you gotta take him. I wonder, there's an identity thing, which I think you're alluding to with Philly, where you're on this weird Embiid timetable, where I have no idea where he's playing. You're trying to contend. You have Paul George, who's in his mid-30s now, who's at a weird point in his career. You have some veterans. And then you have this really young backcourt of guys, other than Maxey,

• 22:59Bill Simmons?

  who haven't really been in big games yet or anything. McCain was in high school, one, two, three year, two years ago, three, two and a half years ago?

• 23:10Bill Simmons?

  And then you have lumbering Joel Embiid coming off eight surgeries, walking it up, playing, not playing. I just don't know what that team is, House. And I know when we're doing over unders, that's going to be one of the hardest ones to pick. We don't know how many games Embiid's going to play. Is, does he change his name to if Joel Embiid stays healthy? Is it, we're officially at that point? Does he have to do a name change?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Well, the, the question I have, speaking of are we, uh, to this point, will the mark, will the books even offer a number for Philadelphia?

• 23:41Bill Simmons?

  Like a win total?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like you just play the under. Whatever it is, it could be 46, it could be 36, it could be 29.

• 23:52Bill Simmons?

  So what would you bet it at? All right, let me, I'll throw a couple of over unders out. So now we know who's on their team, basically. They, they, we'll see if they can bring back Grimes and I don't think they can bring back Yabasali. Um, 42 and a half. Did you go over or under?

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Under.

• 24:14Bill Simmons?

  You have to bet it.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  The problem is, they're in the East.

• 24:19Bill Simmons?

  So you'd go under 42 and a half for the Sixers?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  42 and 40.

• 24:24Bill Simmons?

  I think I'd go under two.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, it's impossible.

• 24:27Bill Simmons?

  It's a more likely scenario that Embiid has more injury problems and they decide to basically just go with the youth and, you know.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  But they, they get the benefit of-

• 24:38Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't bet it either way.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Charlotte, Brooklyn, and Washington, still in the East, none of whom did anything that's to, to push themselves into any kind of contending position by way of this draft. Uh, and I can't imagine any of those three teams doing anything, um, in free agency to tilt.

• 24:59Bill Simmons?

  You don't think Brooklyn pushed themselves? They, they got seven ball handlers.

• 25:05Bill Simmons?

  They think the league next year is going to have multiple basketballs in the same game.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  They're hoping they can play at Rucker. That's where they pushed themselves.

• 25:12Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business, it can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform, I promise.

• 25:21Bill Simmons?

  Can help you. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breeze. So you can generate more leads, close more deals and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you can see results in days, not months. Visit hubspot.com slash AI to learn more. Comment, we deliberately saved everything after pick three for you. Although we did talk about Ace Bailey going to Utah. So quickly, um, I, we were, the thing we both said was like Danny Ainge could give zero fucks. If somebody's like, yeah, I don't really want to play in Utah. He's going for the talent. You must have loved the fit of Ace Bailey going to Utah.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it, I think it makes sense. I mean, he's, he's, he's somebody, if he embraces playing, this has always been the thing for me. If he embraces life off ball in the short term, he's going to make a lot of hay in that offense. I think he makes a whole lot of sense. So yeah, I mean, once he gets out there, I mean, I think that's kind of everybody's experience with Utah. As you hear things and everything and like, I was joking with Zach about like, that place is changing. I made a whole fucking video about it, about it is different than people think. And you get out there and you hear weird things about the liquor laws. It's like, it's not that weird. It's like, it's a place that's really changing. And, uh, yeah, I mean, they needed shooting and the fact that they had access to him at that spot.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  You get the, you get the upside of the star stuff. And I think Will Hardy is going to be a great mentor for him. I think Will Hardy has gotten to the point where he's earned that credibility where you just, you think anybody's going to be better with him because he's such a good coach.

• 26:59Bill Simmons?

  They told Ace, like, Ace, if you don't think Salt Lake City is that much fun, you gotta watch the show on Hulu, The Moms of Tik Tok, whatever that show is. Watch these ladies, the Mormon wives, watch the Mormon wives. Just give this like five hours. Fun city.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Just for the record, I did not watch that.

• 27:16Bill Simmons?

  House, you're missing out. Um, Edgecombe to Philly. That was the most likely pick. It does put the team on two separate timetables and my guess is like,

• 27:28Bill Simmons?

  If McCain would be the greatest third guard possible, right? He's probably severely overqualified as his career goes up and up to be a third guard. But you could also, you can do the Indiana thing, play three guards together. I like the flexibility gives him, I just have no idea how they make sense with Embiid was the other topic we talked about.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Uh, I get the sense that there is maybe more quiet sort of shifting of, there are people who, who have quiet confidence that McCain could legitimately have a chance to be as good or better than Maxey. I know that might seem crazy, so I wouldn't be surprised if this, if in the short term, I agree with you on the, the, it makes, at, at first, when I was thinking about Edgecombe and those two guys, I was just like, that's dissonant. That kind of makes my head hurt. I don't see how that's going to work. Maybe they're a little small, but Edgecombe is 6'5". I think if you take the pressure off of him to be a highly productive handler in the short term, you can get some of the benefit of some of the things that he adds, like the spacing and that you just unleash this crazy athlete. Where was it? Was it the Clippers that unleashed like Bledsoe with that team back in like 2010?

• 28:28Speaker 02

  And you, every once in a while, he'd just do something crazy. I, I think it's going to be a low stakes role like that for him. You evaluate how it plays out. If McCain improves a whole lot, maybe you shift it. Once this immediate title conversation is kind of simmered a little bit, and then you make a decision going forward and then Edgecombe can be a big part of your thinking.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  What? Did you say immediate title conversation? What title?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Let me add a word hypothetical. Yeah.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Well, I don't even know if that does goes far enough.

• 28:57Bill Simmons?

  It was the on paper, on paper title.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  What title?

• 29:01Bill Simmons?

  It's the saber metric. If you play out a season on a computer.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I know what title. The worst contract in the NBA title.

• 29:07Bill Simmons?

  They have two of the top three.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  They have two of the top three. That's a title.

• 29:13Bill Simmons?

  Bradley Beal's like, sorry, you're not grabbing the number one spot as long as I'm here.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  It's named, the whole, the whole thing's named for him.

• 29:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we might have to do that with Waz next year is name it the, the Bradley Beal Memorial Worst Contract Draft. Cause I think it's the single worst one. Con Knippel goes to Charlotte at number four. We could see this one coming for a while. Uh, perfect offensive fit. We got to meet the five Knippel brothers. Enjoyed that. And, uh, as, as much as I am excited to watch this team on offense, there's going to be some trouble on defense, guys. This is not going to go great.

• 29:50Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. The only problem on the on offense when you're playing Charlotte is you have no idea who to hunt. There's just too many options. It's like paralyzing Kyle.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  That could work to their advantage. Yeah, they just in their excitement, they do. They get indecisive and then Charlotte scores a bunch of points. That's that's one philosophy, right? Yeah. I mean, you and I were joking earlier about, I mean, hypothetically, who would you have to have at the four and five spot to make this a defense that could keep its head above water? I think you'd have to have, you'd have to have Anthony Davis. You'd have to have, I don't know, man, it's that's tough sledding. There's gonna be a lot of

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  Who's playing center? Who plays center for Charlotte?

• 30:27Speaker 02

  They traded all of them.

• 30:28Bill Simmons?

  Oh, they're all on Phoenix now. I don't know. After Mark Williams, Charlotte was just aggressively trying to trade for him and the Lakers backed out of his physical, even though they needed a center. And now Charlotte is again shopping him in June. I would just be really nervous acquiring Mark Williams. This team's just like, hey, how about Mark Williams? Any interest? You like him? And somehow they ended up getting a first, I think they got the 29th pick and then a future first, which wasn't nearly as good as the one New Orleans gave up. We're not ready to talk about that yet. We will talk about this first New Orleans pick, though. Jeremiah Fears at number seven. Where did you

• 31:09Bill Simmons?

  have? How how high? Kyle, how much higher did you have Trey Johnson than Jeremiah Fears? Just in your head mentally from a ceiling standpoint? If Trey Johnson goes 20 floors, how high were the how many floors did the Jeremiah Fears building go?

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, this is this was one that I was off consensus on. I mean, I had fears at 20 in our final big board. But it's a tricky conversation because on the one hand, I do acknowledge and see how well to answer your question. I mean, I had Trey at four, Trey Johnson four, just because I thought the simple, like the simple propositions of him, even if his star upsides don't play out, this is a dude that you're just going to be able to throw like a freaking like, you know, pinball around an offense and just make him run. If he if he that's another guy, if he dedicates himself to just being a marathon man in offense and just setting screens and run around, it'll work. But Jeremiah Fears, um, He definitely is like arguably the most like electric like you know ball handler in

• 32:10Speaker 02

  this class like he can get in the paint. He's very smooth. He has a nice gate to his game. But the data just says, I had this written down here. Um, there are some sites that sort of compile uh statistics across all event types, going back to like the earliest stuff that they've done. And I was looking at fears and you know, from sample to sample, you can kind of argue this way or that and be like with Liam McNeely, be like, I've seen him shoot the ball in the past. I don't trust this one. With fears, it's been pretty consistent. He overall on their database is 28.4%. That goes back to 2021. I feel like that's the type of shooter he is. So if you're going to trust that that guy's going to be a load bearing decision maker, you're just already kind of encountering problems. And then you go ahead and combine that with the fact that he has a lot of defensive questions. Granted,

• 32:55Speaker 02

  he's young. He's got a lot to learn. The combination of those two things just make me really queasy. So I had a hard time going seven there. I had a hard time thinking of reaching for him there. Uh, he's one of those guys that you're like, I like him, but not at that spot. And that's kind of how I felt about him at seven.

• 33:11Bill Simmons?

  That's how I felt. Joe House did the most homework on him because he was worried the Wizards were going to take him at six.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  How worried?

• 33:17Bill Simmons?

  Is that where you landed, House?

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Um, no, no, I, I, I wouldn't even really countenance that, that outcome. Um, I uh, didn't think he, he's, he's, he's not very big and it doesn't make sense for Washington to have a, a not very big uh point guard, six, two, you know, barely, not even 180.

• 33:39Bill Simmons?

  How about six, two and not a good three point shooter? Seems like a recipe for disaster.

• 33:47Bill Simmons?

  Like I, like who, who are the dudes that the, the smaller ball handling can't hit threes guards that you can even think of at this point? And if you're going to be like that, you have to be like a really great two way player, which I don't think he is. I, you know, he's 18. He's a project. Who knows? And when you read this stuff, but he's definitely, they made a point of saying this in the draft. He's one of those. I'll remember every guy that got taken ahead of me. It's one of those guys. He played football and baseball all the way I think through high school. Like he's a great athlete. Um, but the, the shooting makes me really nervous though, for if it was the 13th pick, I get it. But seventh in a draft that I think we all thought was pretty deep. It's, it's, that's a little scary.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I um, he, to be fair to him, and that was 6'2 and a half barefooted. He'll be 6'4 functionally on the court. 6'5 and a quarter wingspan. But he just, yeah, he's a good decision maker at the, when he sees like that first read when the defense is loaded to one side or another, he's not a hog. He'll get off the ball and he did lead a competent team in the toughest, you know, if you're going to apologize for him, he did lead a team to the tournament and had a good showing in in gaming at UConn in the first round. As, as a young player. So, but the guys that I kind of pulled that statistically flagged as similar to him were, uh, Keonte George.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Hold your nose, Killian Hayes, um, Jalen Green and other his G, his G League sample was similar. And then Jaden Ivey, if you want to feel good, if you want to say, but he, you know, Jaden Ivey was different size.

• 35:26Bill Simmons?

  Those are not the same type.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's just kind of, I'm with you. It's, I'm, I'm, I'm a little concerned about him being like a heavy, heavy decision maker for me.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  I, once we got out of the top six, which I thought was pretty established. That was the tier. And then I thought fears was, was below. The guy I liked the most was Malach. I just feel like he's,

• 35:50Bill Simmons?

  just not worried about him being in a competent NBA center who might actually be a lot better than that. And that was the guy House wanted at six. If Ace Bailey didn't drop there and he ends up falling all the way to 10. And, uh, you know, I, and I'm writing down in my notes, not to skip over Brooklyn and Toronto and eight, nine, but I'm writing down in my notes. These are my notes in, as it's happening. Ishbia exclamation point. He's back.

• 36:18Bill Simmons?

  Green Brooks and Malleyage for KD isn't bad. That was my next note. Oh, wait, they're also trading for Mark Williams. Why?

• 36:28Bill Simmons?

  It all happened in like three minutes, House.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 36:30Bill Simmons?

  It's like, oh, wait, what are you guys doing? And they traded the 29th pick, which they actually needed this year because it's not like they have a shitload of depth. And then a 29 first, that is not, not their own pick. But I don't, I just don't understand why you would have Mark Williams and Malowatch. What's the point of having both of those guys, House?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I don't know. I have no idea.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  They are different. I mean, they're both lob threats. They're both limited offensive players. The scheme versatility is the one thing that you can kind of twist because for now, Malowatch is a little heavier on drop coverage and, you know, Williams will give you a little bit more of that get out, sit down, switch a little bit, and he's a little older and he'll be a little more ready in the short term because Malowatch is just so young. You know, I mean, like he's, he's a basketball.

• 37:18Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he doesn't play for two years.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  So that might be the thinking.

• 37:21Bill Simmons?

  That'd be great. Devin Booker will be 30 by that point. Makes sense.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  We got years to burn, right?

• 37:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's fine. He's not going anywhere. He's committed to the team. We had a weird thing with that pick where

• 37:35Bill Simmons?

  they just can't get this right. And I thought of a great suggestion when, because Houston trades that pick to Phoenix in the Durant trade. We all know that's the trade. They have to do the draft and then have Houston pick him because the trade can't be official until July 6th.

• 37:50Bill Simmons?

  House, why can't they just say,

• 37:54Bill Simmons?

  Houston has traded the number 10 pick to Phoenix for future considerations. Phoenix is now on the clock at 10. And just say way afterwards, here's what the trade is. Instead of doing this fucking charade with the Houston hat and, and then you're watching the draft and it's like Brooklyn's picking, but it's actually Memphis and now, now it's Memphis pick. No, this is Portland's pick, but like, what are they doing? How is this where we landed with the NBA draft? One of our favorite nights.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Well, I want to go backwards one step, which is to complain in this direction. Why is the draft tonight? What possible explanation after the season ends on Sunday night? It, why isn't it at a minimum Thursday at a minimum?

• 38:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Like as, as we go into the weekend, as folks, you know, have, have discharged their weekly obligations and are ready to focus on the sporting world.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  Scared there for a second.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Discharge. Yeah, I know.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  I was worried.

• 38:53Bill Simmons?

  Got real tired of beer. That we're going to turn a neuromassage, our first neuromassage.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  No, no, don't even. Ready for a draft party, ready for a draft party on a Thursday night. Let us catch our breath.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I'm exhausted. I mean, I'm, I'm not just, I expect, I wanted to be drunk. I told Simmons, uh, J K M, that if we got either Ace Bailey or Malawatch, that I was going to pop the bottle and be ready. Uh, but since that didn't happen, I'm honestly drunk on exhaustion because of, you know, going straight from the finals, Sunday evening into Monday, trying to process it. But you're, of course.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  The, the Halliburton injury.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Couldn't even crack open a light lager for Trey Johnson. He doesn't, what level of buzz?

• 39:39Bill Simmons?

  I agree. That's at least like a nice, heavy alcohol, high IPA.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  That's a high noon. That's a high noon at best. That's like a pineapple high noon.

• 39:49Bill Simmons?

  House, is he the best shooter you've had since you became the Wizards? Or is there a better one?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Bradley Beal is a much better shooter. Bradley Beal could, could shoot his ass off. He led the league in scoring. Is this, is, there were some early indications.

• 40:06Bill Simmons?

  I'm not talking score. I'm not talking score. I'm talking pure shooter.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Go back and look at the comps for Bradley Beal early in his career. He was on a Ray Allen arc. I'm not kidding.

• 40:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're right. 2017 playoffs, he was really good. Yeah, you're right.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Early, early. He didn't get, he didn't get to the Ray Allen. But I'm just saying, like, the comps were, were there for the quality of, of shooter that.

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  This is before he racked up a body count of murdered Suns fans? That's before he killed the fanbase of a billion, uh, billion Phoenix Suns lovers. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with the experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins

• 41:11Bill Simmons?

  on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or, if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying

• 41:56Bill Simmons?

  to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865, is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FTIC. Um, okay. The eighth and ninth pick. So the draft's going great. It's going chalk, basically. I didn't really have a problem with any pick.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  And I'm like, whoa, this is gonna be a pretty boring podcast tonight. Nobody's gonna do anything stupid. And then the dumb teams just come flying in. It's like they arrived late. It was like, wait, what's that? I hear a horn. Is that, oh, somebody's pulling the parking lot. Oh, it's the dumb teams. Hey, it's Brooklyn. Hey, New Orleans. We're here. Shot marks is like, oh, hold on, hold on.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Driving in a Ugo.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  It's definitely a trick horn of some kind, yeah.

• 43:06Bill Simmons?

  And they take the BYU kid number eight, who I thought was more likely he fell into the twenties.

• 43:16Bill Simmons?

  Kyle, like, try to make the case here why you would take him at eight.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  I'll say the positives.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  He is probably the most talented ball screen reader, like reader of reads. He and creative passer manipulation wise, like he can see, he can see the first help defender. He can see the second, the tertiary, whatever it is. He can manipulate those things really, really, really well, can make any pass with either hand, and he's big. I mean, I think he's the most creative passer in this draft. He's a smart kid. I interviewed him on our show. I was very impressed with how aware he was of his challenges, which are, he has a high center of gravity. He's very skinny. At this point, he is not a threat to hit dribble play. He back rimmed a huge percentage of his, of his threes.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's some kind of mechanical thing that they can figure out. I'm not a shot doctor. I know they work with a really smart shot doctor. We'll see. But then, I guess the other thing is that he wasn't great in the paint either, and he's gonna get attacked defensively. People are gonna play through his chest. But I mean, the Nets are interesting.

• 44:24Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying can't really shoot, he's gonna get attacked defensively, and also not really that good in the paint?

• 44:32Bill Simmons?

  That's and too skinny?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  He is skinny. I don't know how much stronger he'll get.

• 44:36Bill Simmons?

  Sounds like a win.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  But look, here's the thing. The comps and J K M. You did the write up for the Ringer draft. These, these comps belong in the top 10 of a draft, of a draft. Shaun Livingston and Josh Giddy, those are, those are like, those are competent basketball players.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Shades of those guys.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  The biggest bubble is Shaun Livingston.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Denny Abia was drafted by Washington. You put Denny in this mix. Denny was a top 10 pick.

• 45:10Bill Simmons?

  Bite your tongue on Shaun Livingston. Pre-injury Shaun Livingston was awesome.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  He's outrageous. It's more late stage, like reform point guard. I can't be the primary guy.

• 45:20Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Can I give you my comp? I didn't release my player comps, but mine was Jaroslav Korolev, the Clippers 2012 first rounder. Had to watch him for a couple of years. And see, you guys didn't remember who it was. Number 12 pick in the draft. Yeah. It's like, oh, he does all that. It's like, what does he do?

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:39Bill Simmons?

  I didn't like the pick at all. Listen, I'm happy to be wrong. I'm happy to, I'm sure if he's awesome, this clip will get cut out and be like, oh, you got one wrong. I just, I, number eight, I just know it's a pure no.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  It was high. I mean, it's an interesting theme. I wrote about this in our grades that we put up that the Nets clearly were following a theme of rolling the dice on creators. I don't think they expected Wolf to be there where he was, but they took Seraph, who has a similar profile, you know, a big, but he's a little different. He's a different side of the coin there where he's very, I, I put this in, in the grades also. He's, he's one of the main guys in the, in this class that fall under the, one of my favorite distinctions, which is he has some shit to him. Um, he is, he's just an aggressive player. Um, that might make, give him a better chance to succeed than Jaeger. I don't know. I doubt it. I, I just think if you shift Jaeger to an off, cause

• 46:30Speaker 02

  46% of his touches were, were pick and rolls this past year. That is insanely high. He had a huge demand on him to, to create for BYU. And I think if you put him with other creators and he's shooting off the catch a little more roaming in the seams of an offense with that passing ability, there are paths for it to work, I think.

• 46:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but it's an identity team. They took three guards because we didn't talk about the French kid at number 19. But they took three guards plus Danny Wolf, who everybody's like, he's a point center. He needs the ball to, he needs the ball to thrive. So it's like, cool. You took a bunch of guys who need the ball to have any sort of success at all. Sounds like you did a, I just, I don't get the Nets and I don't get the Sean Marks thing at all. And I think he's probably a nice guy. But he's kept that job for a long time and I just don't, I don't get it. I don't see it. I don't understand why you would want five first round picks in the same draft. We see teams do this all the, how many, how, we're fucking old now. How many times have we've seen a team put too many young guys together? And then a year later, they're like, hey, last year we had too many young guys. We gotta get some vets. It was so stupid to have all those young guys.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, I'm living through it right now. We, we drafted three uh in the, in the 2024 draft.

• 47:41Bill Simmons?

  You went and got Marcus Smart and Chris Middleton. You've got some adults to be near them.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Okay. All right. Well, and, and crucially, um, bid adieu to Jordan Poole. Wish, I wish the best of luck to Jordan Poole. Who actually had a fine season last year.

• 47:55Bill Simmons?

  You like Jordan Poole, don't you?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I, well, I.

• 47:58Bill Simmons?

  The guy in college is pretending he doesn't like the girl at the party that he keeps leaving. You like Jordan Poole.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  I intensely disliked him when he arrived and, and in the manner.

• 48:06Bill Simmons?

  But you ended up liking him.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  He, he found, they found a role for him. He found a role for himself, but we're not here to talk about the Washington.

• 48:15Bill Simmons?

  I didn't like what the Nets did at all. Uh, Toronto took Colin Murray-Boyle's. Leading Kendrick Perkins. I didn't know which telecast to watch. It was like, do I take the samurai sword and jam it into my temple? Or do I take this chainsaw and saw my leg off? I just, I just, I couldn't figure it out. Perk, they took Colin Murray-Boyle's and Perk said they have the pieces. And they're, they're a top six team in the East. And at that point I started looking for a third ESPN channel, but there were only two covering the draft. There wasn't a third one, at least one that I couldn't find.

• 48:52Bill Simmons?

  But I didn't mind that pick. And then Malawatch at 10. And then we had a trade and then the draft started getting really weird.

• 49:01Bill Simmons?

  Said for coward Memphis moves up with Portland. Malika calls him Colin Coward, which was exciting. I thought Colin Coward got drafted for a second. They basically traded the 16 and Orlando's 28 first to move up five spots. Kyle, I didn't like this guy. This was one of my guys that I was kind of out on.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 49:19Bill Simmons?

  Cause I felt like I had to zag. I have to, I can't go through the draft and just like every guy there's. This one I just didn't get, but now Memphis traded up to get him. And now I'm just gonna assume I'm wrong because Memphis is usually right with these guys and that with these, these dudes they find, they just have too high of a success rate. So I'm going to take the loss. He hasn't even put an NBA game left and I think I'm wrong.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Don't, uh, don't give up that easily. Dig in a little bit at least.

• 49:45Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm not digging in. Memphis has the way better track record. They like something. I don't see it, but they see something.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  What don't you, what are you worried about? I mean, can we just go itemized line by line here? What do you, what's your concern?

• 50:00Bill Simmons?

  The, so first of all, he's, well, starts out, well, we see, where did he go freshman year? I'm trying, I'm blanking. I'm trying.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  D3 Willamette.

• 50:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And kind of worked his way up, right? And peaked this year. I just didn't feel like the athleticism was there in a way that would translate to the NBA, even though in college it looked fine. The stuff that like those type of guys who succeed, I still feel like there, you have to be at a certain really high level athletically to do all that stuff. And he was like, you could even see in college, it felt like he was pushing it. So I don't know, I might be wrong. Maybe Memphis sees some things that I didn't see. What did you see?

• 50:41Speaker 02

  The positivity that I would mix in is that I, I think his frame, which is like six, five and a half. You know, we've said this over and over again, cause it's so damn impressive, but 72 wingspan, huge hands. He's built like a, like he's built, he's got a just capital T frame. He's got enormous shoulders. But I think that can lead people to think that he is, he's some kind of nuclear incendiary fly around pogo stick kind of athlete. When really he's more of a, he is. A good athlete, you know, I think he had like a 38 inch vert. But he has more like punish you with with physicality in his game.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  He's not as much of a he's I wouldn't worry about that because I think he's going to be a lot more of a punish you with technique and physique. Type player because if you watch the way he developed. He's not like an on like he's not an off the dribble creator quite yet, but he's a pretty decent passer. But he would just punish dudes.

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  There was some back to the basket like put the shoulder into the guy. I don't know if that works in the same way in the pros.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  I don't think it works full time, but I think you're just kind of looking for creases and wrinkles in your game that you can exploit in different situations. I think he has a lot of them. I mean, he was a catch and shoot player. I have this my ledger here. He shot. We'll just say a gigantic amount of catch and shoot threes across. He was getting ready to ramp up and take a ton during this past year before he got hurt. But he shot about 40% catch and shoot. So if he punishes mismatches, don't put a smaller guard on him. He's got a great mid range game. He's long and athletic around the rim. I don't know. I like him. I think he's going to be great with Jalen Wells there in that offense.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  I want to take all those things and put them on Trey Johnson. Then I would be so psyched with with that those attributes on Trey Johnson at the sixth pick. That's I mean, the the combination, first of all, Will Lamont, amazing Pino. But going from from from there. To him landing in Memphis.

• 52:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying, BS?

• 52:44Speaker 01

  It it shows that he's going to be competent on both ends because they don't they don't typically draft, you know.

• 52:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they have Memphis has a type.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Yep, and and he's their type and that three point shooting plus the physicality. That's that's the recipe for for a top 10 guy. So where you see him, you know, going 11 here. That's why he gets the nice B plus grade from J K M.

• 53:09Bill Simmons?

  I won't say what Joe House's type was back in the day, pre marriage, but Joe House had a type too. He's much like Memphis.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Lot of Joe House dating and drinking.

• 53:20Bill Simmons?

  Somebody breaks to the table.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  We're live late night.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  I'm admitting defeat. I think how about this? I think Cedric Howard is going to be great on Memphis. I don't want to take the loss on this.

• 53:31Bill Simmons?

  This next pick, the bull, the. Bulls took the 18 year old. Say his name. I'm going to mess it up. I'm not even going to attempt it.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  It rhymes with Dengue.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Asingay is what I've heard.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  I was cracking up. Dengue fever.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  Frashilla was like dumping on him right before he got picked and he walked out of his team.

• 53:51Bill Simmons?

  Was killing him. He said he quit on his, on his Euro team, but uh, Chicago. It's a weird one. They, this is the kind of draft pick like Sam Presti is allowed to do. It's like, we're, we're taking this kid. He's 18. He's a million years away from being anything. He's two years away from being two years away. And I'm going to be here as the GM still when this happens. I can't say the Chicago Bulls GM has been like crushing it. So by the time, even if this pick hits, I don't even know if he'll be the GM at that point, but uh, I thought this was really weird because we officially hit the point in this draft when I couldn't believe nobody had taken Derek Queen. It just felt like, okay. He shouldn't have fallen out of the top.

• 54:34Bill Simmons?

  11, like he's not going to go 12. Now we're going to fall to 13. Hold that thought on Derek Queen, but I just like, I, I just would have taken Derek Queen if I'm Chicago. I kind of like their team. Like they, like they have Vucevic on an expiring. They don't really have any other big guy centers. Like he's this gifted offensive player that kind of fits in with the weird offense they have. I think they need somebody like him. I just would have taken it, but what'd you think about that pick Kyle?

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Well, speaking to what you're talking about there, when you think of like an OKC, I mean, I think you, you're kind of implying that, and OKC's been great at this with their success. They've been able to slow roll these guys in a way that makes sense. It's sort of like, um, this comes to mind just because my son is doing it right now, like swimming lessons. There are a lot of ways to approach this. It's like, you could take it slow and get an instructor and you know, move at their pace. Or you can just be one of those people that's just like throws your kid in the pool and says, fuck and figure it out, buddy. And that's kind of what I feel like is going to happen here. Um, but he's, he's somebody that I, I had a hard time grading that one just because I'm like, mock boards always inform grades. And I'm like, I've been skeptical of Asingay, you know? I, I feel like he's an energy big who is sort of wearing.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  A I'm a big unrefined wing mask and I'm like, I don't really know that he's ever going to be efficient enough to justify being that type of player. I would be a lot. I would feel a lot better if he were like, I'm dedicated to course, then you'd flip it and I'd say, oh, he can't shoot. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a catch 22, but I don't know, man, that that was one that I'd I'm with you. I didn't really understand. I would have, I would probably reach for Queen there.

• 56:07Bill Simmons?

  That was a look how smart we are. This 12 pick who might, might not make it. He has Queen is a DMV guy.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  So the only thing, and we'll get to Queen soon enough that I guess I could see if I'm looking at it, trying to be glass half full for Chicago. If they are going to be a rim running team, right? If Bozalas and Giddy and Giddy is playmaking.

• 56:34Bill Simmons?

  And Kobe.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this kid's just singularly good. Get to the rim, get to the rim, get to the rim. Then there's a kind of logic to it.

• 56:42Bill Simmons?

  Okay, I'll accept that. He fits in with their identity. I just don't like the pick.

• 56:49Bill Simmons?

  So I did like Derek Queen going to New Orleans in a trade at number 13.

• 56:55Bill Simmons?

  And then we found out what the trade was.

• 56:59Bill Simmons?

  This was when I lost my mind. I think I blacked out. I'm so glad the NBA can still give us these. New Orleans trades up 10 spots so they can take Derek Queen and they give up their unprotected 2026 first round pick swap that they have with Milwaukee, where they have the favorable, whatever the better pick is they keep. They send that to Atlanta, who had to be deliriously happy. Like, we only have to move down 10 spots and we get an unprotected. This was one of the five dumbest trades of this decade. I, I was speechless. I just can't believe it. And who is it? It's our guy, Joe Dumars, who was so bad in the first half of the 2010s. He, I got so much column mileage from

• 57:42Bill Simmons?

  him. He finally got bounced from the Pistons, never got another job and then moved into the NBA and everybody in the NBA loved him and he's a great guy by all accounts. And enough time passed that everybody forgot how bad of a GM he was down in it. And now he just traded away their unprotected 2026 pick house. They're in the West. What the fuck does he think's gonna happen next year? Do you think they're gonna be a five seed? What is he doing?

• 58:07Speaker 01

  The hilarious thing, and this is what, what? We get to to relish coming going forward is there he they they're doing some kind of their version of 3D chess here because I think Zion is moving on. I think the point of Zion leaving CAA going over to Bill Duffy. There's a trade demand coming. Derek Queen is fits a specific needs plays a specific role for them. And they were just like this is this is our plan. We have a plan. We're going to acquire him and we can't, you know, let let the possibility they go that that we don't get him for this for this role.

• 58:48Bill Simmons?

  Okay, so you're saying they're trading their best player, which will inevitably make next year's team worse. And they're not going to have a pick after they trade that player. That makes sense to you?

• 58:57Speaker 02

  And a perceivably better drafts from what we understand.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  I would anticipate that any kind of Zion trade would include picks. I mean, is that reasonable?

• 59:06Bill Simmons?

  So your only defense of that trade is the hypothetical that Zion might get traded, which by the way, would also then make them worse and they wouldn't have their pick.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  I said it's their version of 3D chess. It doesn't make any sense. It's it's just the Dumar's world.

• 59:19Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, this is one of those that Adam Silver, like you could have talked me into him vetoing like they vetoed the Chris Paul trade. That's how bad that trade was. Kyle, would Atlanta have done that trade if it was a top four protected pick? I'm gonna say yes. Top four protected. Atlanta is like, we're still doing it. Top seven protected? I think they do that.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Probably, probably.

• 59:42Bill Simmons?

  unprotected. They but they I can't even imagine they're showing all these war rooms. They should have shown the Hawks war room as guys are taking their shirts off and doing this and fucking popping champagne on each other. It was it was probably like the this is the end.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  City on the bus.

• 59:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was like the mushroom scene and this is the end where they're just like going nuts. And I can't even imagine how deliriously happy they were. And I really like where Atlanta was sitting before tonight. And now they have this New Orleans pick. They have a $25 million trade exception. They added Porzingis. Jalen Johnson's coming back. They got Dyson Daniels and Trey Young and Reese Shea and Akongwu. House. It's it's time to look at the conference odds.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Don't think that I haven't already, but please.

• 1:00:27Bill Simmons?

  You already did? You cheated on me.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:00:30Bill Simmons?

  What the hell, House? They're not in the top six. Thirty-three to one to win the East.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yes, that's a ticket. That's in my portfolio.

• 1:00:41Bill Simmons?

  We might be doing that later.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Bandol Sportsbook. Yes, sir.

• 1:00:44Bill Simmons?

  Thirty-three to one. What if they get DeMar DeRozan with that trade exception?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  All they have to do is make it to the Eastern Conference. They don't have to win for that ticket to have value. You have an amazing hedge with that thirty-three to one sitting in your pocket. That team, that's the, I still can't imagine one stop that they make in like, Dyson Daniels is incredible. I can't name one other player. I mean, Johnson's plays both ways for sure as well, but.

• 1:01:12Bill Simmons?

  No, Johnson and Daniels is their two defenders. And then they'll, they'll be able to do some other stuff. Kyle, we, we were texting a lot about Derek Green during the season. Cause he bring, he brings some things to the table that I love. There's some defensive stuff with him that is about as bad as it gets. And it's gonna be, he's gonna be one of those guys where I, I, I do think it's a, he's a ceiling basement guy. But there's some really good offensive stuff. The problem is, some of the ways you would use him on offense are very similar to how, like, you would use, say, a Zion Williamson, who's also on the team.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Just hypothetically, yeah.

• 1:01:46Bill Simmons?

  I have no idea how those two guys would play together. Makes no sense at all.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  No, they don't. They, they are, they have mirroring issues for sure, but he's, he's, he, you're right. I mean, he's got a lot of things that you like. I mean, the connectivity of his passing. I was saying on our, on the draft show that in that eighteen feet to the rim area. He, he roasts other bigs with his foot speed, with his balance. He can contort. He just does some things that are odd for a player of his body type. He's not super explosive. But you mentioned the defensive stuff. I think a lot of that's controllable for him. I mean, if you're banking on him ever being, if you're banking on him being your rim protector, then you, you should just have to take a breathalyzer before you even are qualified to, to, to run a team.

• 1:02:33Speaker 02

  Because I, that was so obvious. He doesn't have the size to be a rim protector. He's more of a help defender. And the big thing for him too is he has great hands. He does have mobile hips, even though he's not super fast. And he's a great. Great defensive rebounder. It's more of a play to play. Is he going to mature to the point where he starts taking that personally? Because people have just said this about him relentlessly. And I know this stuff's gotten back to him about on the defensive glass or just on the glass period. It's like, oh, where's my man? Oh, he just ran by me because I didn't touch him and he got an easy basket. That happened over and over again. And just consistency of effort because he can be, I think, at least a neutral defender. It's just, it's going to be up to him whether or not he takes that personally and cuts out the taking plays off and stuff like that.

• 1:03:18Bill Simmons?

  He triggers a lot of my boxes because I like the creativity in offense is really special. I don't like the work ethic part and the taking plays off and the defensive liability part. Sam Cassini said something on Russell's pod about how he's just been playing against men for the last couple of years as a big guy and just is seasoned with and that he thought he was actually a pretty good bet to be able to play faster than you think. To me, it's amazing. The Hawks fleeced them two summers in a row. Two different front offices. The Dejounte Murray trade was was

• 1:03:56Bill Simmons?

  a fleecing. And then this happens that is how they might have the championship belt now. A biggest mess of a team.

• 1:04:10Bill Simmons?

  I think this is it. I think giving away next year's first round pick and making it unprotected. I think they grabbed the belt. Wow. I think Sacramento was like, we just got it back. What do you mean? We just and they just took it back.

• 1:04:27Bill Simmons?

  Like without blinking.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  It's very Not to mention they're putting Jeremiah Fears and Jordan Poole together.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. I thought that the Wizards traded Jeremiah Poole away so that Fears would fit better. And then when they picked Fears, I was like, oh, I'm way off with my logic with this guy. I thought that's what they were doing, Al.

• 1:04:46Bill Simmons?

  And Trey Murphy's got to be like, why am I here? What is this team?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. This is the most confounding team. I was trying to come up with, I mean, even Charlotte feels like it has a point. It feels like it has a direction. Phoenix is like in this conversation, got to keep Phoenix, you know, they're still

• 1:05:06Bill Simmons?

  I guess Phoenix does have Phoenix. So I thought Sacramento took it back. From Phoenix, but you're right. Phoenix still has it.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Sacramento made a good pick tonight when we get to it.

• 1:05:16Bill Simmons?

  They did. Maybe Sacramento is right in the ship a little bit. But I mean, Sacramento turning Fox and Halliburton into Zach Levine. That's like an all-timer. Not to mention the Sabonis extension on that stuff. But yeah, you're right. I think so. Phoenix probably had it. And then New Orleans just took it. And New Orleans has had this belt. I mean, they're they're basically like the Russell Celtics with this belt. They've had it nine different times over the course of since the mid 70s.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  You have to remember how close the Pelicans were though to turning the corner. They've been close a couple of times.

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  It was like for five seconds.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but but I mean.

• 1:05:54Bill Simmons?

  They had a playing game against LeBron and then that and then the moment was over.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  They they were on a pace for over 50 wins just a year ago.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  They got 40 first round picks for Anthony Davis.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  I I get it. I'm just saying they were.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  They won the lottery.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  The problem I have with with Derek, with with with my with my guy.

• 1:06:13Bill Simmons?

  Is this a D M B thing?

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just it's it's this.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Maturity is is still under development. And you can eyeball, you can use your own eyeballs. And look at his body type and reach a conclusion that maybe he hasn't maximized all that's available to him to turn himself into the kind of beast that that he might be in terms of a physical specimen.

• 1:06:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, but the good news is he's gone to New Orleans where.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  This is the point. That's the point.

• 1:06:51Bill Simmons?

  There's so much healthy food there and clean living.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  We just we they just lived through a guy who had a maturity issue. And maybe an issue where he didn't maximize. Yeah. So and Derek is not 18 years old. This is like, it would be one thing to say, yeah, he's pudgy. He's 18 or he's 19 or whatever. He's pushing up. He's closer to 21 than he is to to 18. So.

• 1:07:14Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think he's on the versor climber at 5:00 in the morning like LeBron?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, he can do that. It's there. They have versa climbers. They can get one down to New Orleans and he could become the beast that we're talking about. He could make that commitment. You know, he can get that challenge on the defensive end and become that guy. I hope he does. He was, it was great to have Maryland viable for, for, for a basketball season here most recently and to make some noise in the tournament. I want the kid to succeed. It feels like it's up to the kid.

• 1:07:49Bill Simmons?

  Joe Dumars was so bad in Detroit that I once wrote in a column that I wanted to sell Joe Dumars cap space cologne. You only have to spray it once and then you can't get away from the smell for three to five years. Remember when he was handing out all those terrible contracts? Everyone forgets how bad Joe Dumars was.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  It's been 11 years, right?

• 1:08:09Bill Simmons?

  Fortunately, he has, he has Sean Marks and some others. I feel like we're, we're almost like atrocious GM summit territory.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  Oh, you're gonna fire it back up.

• 1:08:19Bill Simmons?

  We're getting close. Yeah, we, we're, we almost have enough teams again. House is giddy.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm trying to think of all the teams.

• 1:08:28Bill Simmons?

  We got Vivek, we got, we got Ishbia, we have New Orleans.

• 1:08:32Speaker 02

  You got a lot of character voices to write to as well. I think this is prime for.

• 1:08:36Bill Simmons?

  I feel like.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  It could be, Chicago could be in the running.

• 1:08:39Bill Simmons?

  Chicago, Jerry Reinsdorf, never paid the luxury tax.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  I will say, I will say on Queen, one thing, he, one apologetic thing I would say is that he, considering where he was like a couple of years ago, he has made progress.

• 1:08:53Bill Simmons?

  Sure.

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  He has worked on his body. So I, I, I hope he continues that.

• 1:08:57Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I liked the value at 13.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:00Bill Simmons?

  That pick was top 10, that pick was top 10 protected. I would have liked the trade, but it's unprotected in a draft that everybody is saying is awesome. It's insane. There's no counter argument. That is an insane thing to do, to do that. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk

• 1:09:44Bill Simmons?

  full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. So then, of course, the smart teams come up. San Antonio and OKC at 14 and 15. It's like, all right, here we go. San Antonio's gonna take Carter Bryant. He's supposed to go like in the nine, 10 range. He'll go 14. Nice pick. They just hang out as everybody else fucks up. OKC, they take Sorber from Georgetown. Cool. He won't play for a year. They'll let Hartenstein go. All of a sudden, he'll be playing 20 minutes a game. Know how that's gonna go. Did you let you watch him at Georgetown House?

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  Decent amount. He's big. He moves fine.

• 1:10:30Bill Simmons?

  Arms are up?

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  Yep, exactly.

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  He's an arms up guy. Decent footwork. He'll play for them.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:10:35Bill Simmons?

  And then Portland takes Russillo's guy.

• 1:10:40Bill Simmons?

  Yang Hansen.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  That's Russillo's guy?

• 1:10:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Russillo loved him at the Combine. That was his guy.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10:47Bill Simmons?

  And he was our first guy from the stands. And then just a couple more really quick. Utah taking multiple.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Hold on, are we not gonna acknowledge that they massively reached for Hanson Yang?

• 1:10:58Bill Simmons?

  Did they massively reach or was it the steal of the draft?

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Time will tell, right? I may live to be the fool on that.

• 1:11:04Bill Simmons?

  7'2 Chinese guy who can throw backdoor cuts and doesn't speak English. I loved it.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Did he, did he work out against a chair?

• 1:11:11Bill Simmons?

  No, he was, he went to the NBA Combine and played everybody and really impressed everybody and actually increased his stock. Who knows? We're at the point of the draft where it's done, but.

• 1:11:24Bill Simmons?

  Yakushunus. Who's just dropping now.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  You're so pissed about this.

• 1:11:29Bill Simmons?

  And I'm watching going like, I'm rooting for the Celtics maybe to trade up because he was one of my favorite guys. And I know he can't go by anybody, but as a pick and roll, using the pick and roll and I just, that guy's an NBA player.

• 1:11:43Bill Simmons?

  And you think the Nets are going to take him because they took Jaeger and it's like, well, may as well take that guy too. And maybe you'll go one for two. But they take Traore?

• 1:11:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't like the French guys in this draft. I think we had a nice little French run and that we're due for one of those like off years for French guys. And then Miami, as usual, classic, just like Danny Granger, Caron Butler, Tyler Herro. You just go on through all the.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Clear where?

• 1:12:08Bill Simmons?

  Clear where? It just, it just always happens for them and it happens again. And Yakushunus falls to them. And I tweeted that I thought Sean Marks should be arrested and which I still kind of feel. Um, it's just bother. I think you shouldn't get that guy at 20. How did they do it, Kyle?

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Honestly, I don't have the intel on that yet, but I mean, it is crazy that he fell. I mean, I think our final ranking was seven, just because he's somebody that I think.

• 1:12:36Bill Simmons?

  Seven?

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  He's a very smart player. He's very young. He's got great size. He's got a frame. He's going to be big and strong. I don't, I don't think that he doesn't, he played a lot of on, a lot on ball at Illinois and it got a little yakity sacks at times because he had a wrist injury and people started blitzing him and he was on like not a super physical team. So you just, you started to see him get a little wasteful, but I think when you compress him and scale him down, which I think is what's going to happen, he's not going to scale up. I think if you put him in that supportive role, he shoots it pretty decently well off the catch. And then he's one of those guys that I always say are just like a comma in a sentence on offense. It's just like, he's, he's not a stopper. He's not a period. He's just like, here's, here's a comma that we keep moving. Like we're going towards getting

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  a basket. And I think that he's, he's just going to be a nice bolstering secondary creator for them. Yeah, it's a great pick.

• 1:13:30Bill Simmons?

  He's a Daryl Morey motto guy. I figured out Daryl Morey's motto in like the early 2010s. And he's a model guy. He just put, he fills the box score. He'll play for Miami. He'll play 23 minutes a game next year and he'll get like 12 points, five assists, five rebounds, one steal. Like he just, he's just gonna be good. It really is annoying to me. And they're gonna sign Kaminga or do some sort of sign and trade with him. And guess what? He'll be good for them too. And then all of a sudden I'll be like, Jesus Christ, we're back with the Heat. We thought we killed them. We thought they were dead. We thought we cut their head off house. They're back?

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  I took a look at their odds for the Eastern Conference. Just because we're, we're sleeping. Don't sleep. It's an insane number in view of, you know,

• 1:14:18Bill Simmons?

  They don't have a lot of talent.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  They don't. They don't at the moment, but

• 1:14:22Bill Simmons?

  Wow, 50 to one.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  That's, that's all. That's what I'm saying, right? It's Miami. Somehow they keep showing up in the Eastern Conference Finals once every three years over the last, you know, 12 years or so.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

  I was wondering if, uh, cause they have Duncan Robinson. He makes 19 million next year, but you can waive it and it only paid nine. And I was wondering if there was some sort of Celtics, Anthony Simons, Robinson coming back and then they waived the thing and that enables them to create more cash and then they could pay Horford and Cornet. But I feel like that Robinson contract is tradable and they could actually get somebody for him

• 1:15:03Bill Simmons?

  from a team that needs to cut money. I had my, um, that really made me mad. Kyle, give me your favorite pick in the last 15.

• 1:15:14Speaker 02

  Oh, honestly, it probably is Clifford. Honest, like, uh, yes, he's, I like, I like the fit with Jace Richardson in, in Orlando as well. Um, he's, he was lower on my board because of the issues, the, the size issues and things like that. But in that spot,

• 1:15:30Bill Simmons?

  Clifford went to Sacramento, who lost the championship belt and made a good pick.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  I had a Clifford stat that I really liked. Hold on, I pulled this up because I was charting out. He's a guy who was in college. Some of these guys, it's a newer phenomenon, but they stay, they're staying, they're getting the opportunity to stay around and make money and get better. And then it's that same Concept again of scaling down. Um, this is a dude who I always just kind of keep an eye out on guys who see a huge uptick in responsibility and keep the, the boat steady. Not only did he do that, pick and roll reps from his first senior year to his second senior year. Uh, he had 48 in the first year and 139 in the following year. And he upped his efficiency from point 56 to 1.086. So

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  huge uptick and he like vastly improved his efficiency, which says to me that, um, this is a guy who can, he, he just has a skill building skill and, and he's somebody that shoots the ball really well. He added a little bit of post game. Uh, he's not going to be used to the extent that he was at Colorado State on some good teams, but he's going to be a very capable catch and shoot spacer for them. I love that pick. I think, I think it's going to work.

• 1:16:40Bill Simmons?

  I didn't allow myself to root for him to fall to the Celtics because I knew it wasn't realistic. It was like Yakushunis. But, uh, it was like in the back of my head as we went to the twenties and some of the teams did some stupid stuff. I was like, could that, and then it was just not going to happen. Um, I like that one as well. Um, Danny Wolf.

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  House, did you crunch any Danny Wolf tape getting ready for the draft or not really? This is somebody who became a, who became a, a cult figure of this draft.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Jay Kyle recommended that I get, uh, into some, some Danny. Um, I, I didn't do it. I can assure you that, that a guy that I did not have on my radar or paying any attention to was Riley. I, I certainly didn't spend any time looking into Will Riley, uh, as a, as a potential guy that was going to land in Washington.

• 1:17:30Bill Simmons?

  Ended up with him at 21.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  I know. I'm, I'm, I'm aware. Um, but, uh, I, I, I honestly don't think that's a terrible pick again, um, by, by the, the Nets. I, I actually think, um, for six, 10 to 50, the, the, the playmaking capacity.

• 1:17:52Bill Simmons?

  Late twenties, who cares?

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:17:54Bill Simmons?

  I'm starting the late twenties.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  I don't think it's a that bad of a pick.

• 1:17:57Bill Simmons?

  I, I'm, uh, I'm glass half, half empty on him.

• 1:18:04Bill Simmons?

  I just don't see it because I can't see the comp. Like when we get into the twenties, I need you to have one elite skill. That's even why like Newell going to, um, the Hawks. Newell can't shoot.

• 1:18:17Bill Simmons?

  But he tries really hard and we've seen versions of him succeed. He's six foot eight, long. My whole life depends on this quarter. The coach put me in for five minutes. I'm just gonna lose my mind. I've seen that work, right? And sometimes it doesn't work. Like Jordan Walsh on the Celtics, it hasn't worked. There's guys where it doesn't work, but there's a prototype for him.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  And I sold Walsh to you, so I regret that. I'm still pulling, I'm crossing my fingers that that one's gonna come through.

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  He can't.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Shoot at all.

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  He takes a thousand corner threes a day and they're still not going in. So I guess the Danny Wolf thing, if you're gonna say that's gonna work, that would be, okay, it's, it's a tall, he's a little Lori Markkinen-ish, Markkinen-ish with the ball and he, he's good. He can, send him some picks and he can be a mismatch, but I just, I don't, I don't see how on a winning team that is somebody who could be out there.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  He's a role player on a winning team. I mean.

• 1:19:10Bill Simmons?

  Right. Could he be like the ninth, 10th man maybe? I don't know. Is there anybody that didn't get drafted that you were shocked by, Kyle?

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  Oh geez, in the first round.

• 1:19:19Bill Simmons?

  Cause I really liked the St. Joe's kid and he didn't get drafted.

• 1:19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, I'm, I'm under consensus on him, uh, just cause I don't totally trust the shooting to translate. Um, he had a pretty good year this past year with prior years that didn't, that, that I thought more reflected on who he, who he is as a shooter. He kind of, he shoots on the way down in a way that's, in a really flat ball that I just worry about it going in. And then you combine that with the fact that, um, he is very Yakety Sax attacking closeouts. Like the dribble is high. Um, I don't trust in that, you know, it's gonna limit him as a division. Yeah, it just, I don't have to give the full report, but I, I'm not big on him.

• 1:19:57Bill Simmons?

  All right. So House, how will you remember this draft?

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  Um, so close once again for the Washington team. I will say my favorite pick of all, not even, uh, no joke.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  Was Walter Clayton Jr. Going to Utah at that 18 pick because I think the combination of Ace Bailey and Walter Clayton Jr. I might let me ask if I can have permission to do this. I'm not going to pay attention to my team this this upcoming season, other than to check in sometimes to see how some of the rotations with the kids work out. They're not going to win at all. Utah might be on a different trajectory. They might actually try a little bit this upcoming season because those two kids they acquired are so dynamic. Am I permitted to to like have a Western Conference team that I pay attention to? And kind of invest in it's no, no, no, I only have one team. It's these guys.

• 1:20:50Bill Simmons?

  No, but I mean, you're late, you're league pass.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, my league pass. Yeah. Do I have permission for that Utah?

• 1:20:57Bill Simmons?

  Listen, both Russell and I jumped on the Portland situation last year. It was fun.

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Bill Simmons?

  It's like having an affair.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  They were good, too.

• 1:21:05Bill Simmons?

  Just you just in a hotel in a CD hotel room. You're in a motel six with a West Coast league.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  What did what did?

• 1:21:13Bill Simmons?

  It's a West Coast league pass team. But we league pass affair.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  Camera and scoop.

• 1:21:19Bill Simmons?

  It was fun. And then now they have Drew Holiday. Now they have some better leadership.

• 1:21:24Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what I mean, Utah has so many guys. I can't figure out what that team is like they. They're going to have Ace Bailey and marketing and Sexton and Clarkson and Keanu. They're you go through it's like all of these dudes want to take some shots and have the ball and you know.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Asset, asset, asset.

• 1:21:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's all these assets that they're collecting, but for what? For Zion Williamson, like what like what what's the end game? I don't. I don't think they know either, but I think they're just collecting assets. Uh, I think my favorite thing was Danny age taking Ace Bailey and just just showing everybody that guess what? It's called the draft. You don't get to decide where to go. If you don't like it, go back in college. Right? And that's it. Uh, what was your favorite thing, Kyle?

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  My favorite pick?

• 1:22:12Bill Simmons?

  Your favorite, anything from this draft?

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  Um, I enjoy that there was somebody close enough to one of the broadcast cameras to very audibly yell rigged as the night started. I thought that was pretty funny.

• 1:22:24Speaker 01

  I wish it had been me.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Ace, Ace, well, it might've been House, right? Uh, Ace, I'm not laughing at this, but I mean, he looked like he wanted to cry when, when they were talking to him like a normally, you saw him earlier in the broadcast and he's, uh, he's laughing and cutting up and you know, funny kid. And then he's very obvious somber shift, uh, to him. And I, you kept waiting for maybe the other, the other shoe to drop on that, but, um, yeah.

• 1:22:52Bill Simmons?

  The best one ever for that was Steve Francis. That was when we peaked.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  I don't remember that broadcast.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  I was at that draft. That was in Washington.

• 1:23:02Bill Simmons?

  The Vancouver took him and he was so upset and he walked up on the stage and he did the handshake. And then at one point he just like looked up like just completely devastated. And then I think he, he never played a game for them. I think he forced a trade out of there. Like he was that, then they did the interview and he was just, could not have been less happy.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  Well, Steph made the, made a face when the Warriors took him. People forget about that. He wanted to go to the Knicks. Steph made a, like, he looked down and grimaced because he did not want to go to Golden State, but not quite on that level of drama, but yeah.

• 1:23:37Bill Simmons?

  House, did anything in this draft change from a gambling standpoint? Any decisions you're going to make when you're bored this summer? Now that we don't have basketball and we don't have football for two more months?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, we just went through a couple of the ones where there's sort of interesting futures where you might want to just have a ticket in your pocket.

• 1:23:53Bill Simmons?

  So Atlanta 33 to one and then the Thunder plus 130. I guess the last thing I'll say is I was worried all day that there was going to be like a blockbuster mega self-extraint. And all the people that cover the draft and you follow on Twitter, people do this every year. It's like when, uh, when there's like some sort of big weather event coming and all the weather people on the TV are like, don't leave your house. This is going to be one of the worst hurricanes we've, and then it turns out it's fine. We do this with the NBA draft every year. It was like, it's going to be crazy. So many trades. Oh my God, buckle up. It's going to be, and it never is. And I did feel like, uh, I did, I did feel deep down that that's how it was going to play out, but I was worried with

• 1:24:38Bill Simmons?

  the Celtics that there's going to be some Jaylen Brown trade out of nowhere.

• 1:24:44Bill Simmons?

  There was enough smoke coming from different corners that I was, I was on guard. Like I didn't do a, I didn't do like a long power walk to the house. I stayed around the house. I just didn't know it was going to happen. I was on call.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  You had to be tethered.

• 1:24:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just kind of walked around my living rooms. My dog stared at me. Yeah, I don't think they're doing anything. So I don't know. I don't know. For getting another mega trade unless you're right about Zion.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Zion Jazz thing, you really put something in my mind spinning with that one. I mean, of course they're taking, going for Zion and, and, and adding an unhappy ace. I don't think that works. So I don't, I don't know that one.

• 1:25:25Bill Simmons?

  With ace. Yeah, we'll see what happens. All right. We're going to wrap it up here unless, uh, House, you have any last thoughts?

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  I do not. No, no.

• 1:25:32Bill Simmons?

  House seems, you seem tired. You seem emotionally.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  I told you, I'm, I'm drunk on exhaustion because the NBA just won't stop. Let me have a break NBA.

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  Enjoy yourself a little, House. Your team is making good picks. I think Trey Johnson's a good pick. You seem resigned in a way that you should be happy.

• 1:25:49Bill Simmons?

  I like it too. I like where the Wizards are.

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:25:51Bill Simmons?

  You haven't messed up in like two years.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Put that on a banner. Put that, hang that over my shoulder. The Wizards haven't messed up in two years.

• 1:26:02Bill Simmons?

  Listen, if I told you two years ago, two years from now, the Wizards will not have messed up for two years, you would have taken that.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  There's a giant chalkboard in the arena that says this many days since we screwed up.

• 1:26:14Bill Simmons?

  They should have like a scoreboard, like a thing on the clock. 867 days since our last stupid move.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Bill Simmons?

  New Orleans would be zero days. Um, all right. Comment. Great to see you. House. Great to see you. Thanks to Gahan as well. Thanks to everybody who's on our YouTube stream. I'm going to be back Sunday with, uh, Rucello. Enjoy the rest of the week, everybody.

• 1:26:50Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner,

• 1:27:35Bill Simmons?

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• 1:28:19Bill Simmons?

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