3 Ways to Find Closure from Childhood Pain & How to Develop Healthy Coping Mechanisms For Everything Life Throws at You

Today, I'm joined by Haesue Jo, Licensed Therapist & Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp, with years of experience providing individual and family therapy in community mental health. Her current clinical focus includes working with individuals with a variety of presenting problems, including anxiety, relationship and family issues, trauma, community violence, gender identity, and depression. It’s going to be a little different today as I take the client seat and get a first hand experience of what it’s like to be in a therapy session. This is Part 1 of a 2-Part special episode and we open the conversation by talking about my childhood experiences - how it affects my adulthood, the memories that may seem as passing but are actually traumatic, and how these can possibly lead to repression of painful memories. Haesue also helps uncover the challenges surrounding racism, bullying, identity crisis, teenage struggles, and finding your safe space and security. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What We Discuss: 00:00:00 Intro 00:03:36 Why therapists start with talking about childhood 00:10:22 How did you feel about school in general? 00:16:26 Repression of painful memories 00:25:16 How do you feel about being othered? 00:31:29 What I remember as a teenager 00:35:04 Choosing to be understood than be liked 00:42:59 Dealing with racism 00:50:12 Did you want to understand bullies? 01:00:02 Can you change your identity? 01:02:55 When you have some form of security Episode Resources BetterHelp Do you want to meditate daily with me? Go to go.calm.com/onpurpose to get 40% off a Calm Premium Membership. Experience the Daily Jay. Only on Calm Want to be a Jay Shetty Certified Life Coach? Get the Digital Guide and Workbook from Jay Shetty https://jayshettypurpose.com/fb-getting-started-as-a-life-coach-podcast/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

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• 3:00Jay Shetty?

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• 3:20Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose. Thanks to our partners at BetterHelp for this episode. Today, I'm joined with Hei Su-Jo, Licensed Therapist and Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. BetterHelp would like me to mention the following trigger warnings: racism, bullying, and relationships with food. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, you're in the right place because I know you want to be happy, I know you want to be healthy, and I know you want to heal. And we have an incredible partner here at On Purpose and BetterHelp.

• 4:03Jay Shetty?

  And if you were listening closely, you heard some of the incredible live therapy sessions we did on the podcast with two incredible guests who were so happy and open to be really vulnerable and share their truth and share their story. And I want to repeat how grateful and honored I am to have had that opportunity. But today, I'm going to put myself in the hot So I thought, what better way to talk about therapy? What better way to discuss the power of therapy than to put myself in that position? I recommend therapy to so much family, so many friends, so many people in my life, so many clients that I work with as well. And I wanted to show you that no matter how much you think you know,

• 4:46Jay Shetty?

  how much you have gained, how much learning and self-work you have done, sitting down with someone who's non-judgmental, sitting down with someone who has expertise in this area, and sitting down with someone where, in one sense, they don't have a response to the outcome. They have a response to how you feel, they have a response to what you're going through, can really be powerful and beneficial for anyone's life. And today I'm joined by the wonderful Hezu again, who is here last time with our incredible guests. And so, Hezu, thank you for being here. Thank you for doing this again with me. Thank you for the opportunity. A big thanks to BetterHelp for making this happen. So I guess I now have to officially hand over to you again.

• 5:30Jay Shetty?

  I have to stop being Jay Shetty, the host and interviewer on this podcast, which I never do. This is a monumental, historic moment for me on the show where I'm going, okay, I'm no longer a host, but I'm a client and patient.

• 5:44Haesue Jo?

  That's exciting. I'm honored. I'm trying to tell myself now the pressure's not on. I'm really grateful that you're opening up in this way and inviting people into who you are, because I think that's going to be such a powerful way for people to get to witness what they might experience in a session themselves.

• 6:02Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. Yes, that's my hope. My hope is twofold. My external reason for doing this is that people will get a sense of what therapy looks like, because I think we keep hearing about, oh, I went to therapy, or my therapist said this, and people don't know what that means. And the internal reason for doing this is because I think... I just genuinely love getting the opportunity to self-reflect and try and find if there's anything else that I've missed or something that I haven't worked on. And so I think there's, there's two reasons for doing this. It's not just, I don't want anyone to think this is performative or the idea of just showing you what it looks like. I'm, I'm genuinely doing it as I'm in this seat and I'm going to open up and be honest, based on the questions that you have, as I would in a therapy session.

• 6:43Haesue Jo?

  All right. Well, I'm glad we're here talking today about whatever it is that you'd like to get into. So a lot of times I do start exploring with new clients, things from childhood, things from early life experiences. And a lot of people might wonder why therapists do that. So I think it's important for therapists to remember to explain these things. And that's called rationale, providing rationale as to why we're about to go into something. Even though some people might want to deny it, or some people may not realize, so much of our childhood ends up manifesting in the way that we communicate with other people in our adulthood, the ways that we connect with folks. And so it's really important for me as a therapist to start painting this picture of who you were then, because

• 7:25Haesue Jo?

  that little kid is still inside of you now. And that little kid whose needs are not being met now, is going to start acting out in different ways, starting having different behaviors, different feelings that sometimes don't make any sense, really hard to understand. If you would like to, like whatever way that feels comfortable, could you tell me a little bit about your childhood to start off?

• 7:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Even when I think about my childhood, I'm like, what do I remember? And what do I not remember? What, I guess, have I chosen to block out or think about less versus what has kind of naturally been let go of? And then what's very clear? And so I think when I think about my childhood, I think about childhood, starting when I went to nursery, went to school. So like four years old, I think I was when I started going to school. I think my most common memories are of being bullied at that age. And so bullying would include everything from being called names. I was one of the few Indian people in the school I went to. So people

• 8:33Jay Shetty?

  had hurtful names.

• 8:36Jay Shetty?

  I was quite overweight as a child and so I'd always be teased about my weight and, you know, jokes of the, of such. And then I was also trained by my parents to do well at school. So at home, it was all about grades and exams and about doing well. But then I went to a school where that wasn't the number one priority in elementary school. We call it primary school in England. I think I was bullied for that too. I was bullied for the fact that I tried. I was bullied for the fact that I would work hard or my homework would be done on time and things like that. And so there were so many different things I was getting bullied for.

• 9:17Jay Shetty?

  And the bullying started with words and names and things like that, but then it kind of evolved. As we grew older into, I remember being like, we have, I don't know what you call them here and maybe it's the same thing, but we had like big bushes of stinging nettles. Basically, it's a plant where if you touch it, you'd, you'd feel like a sense, a, a negative reaction to it. I remember being pushed into this bush like repeatedly. And for no other reason apart from the color of my skin and for my weight or size. And then I remember being beaten up multiple times as well. So I'd be at school, I'd be in the playground, I'd get beaten up at lunchtime, I'd get, you know. And that was, that was a recurring thing. Like, I don't remember that happening just once.

• 10:00Jay Shetty?

  I remember it happening again and again and again. And I've probably never talked about it this openly or this much before. And my mom would have to come into school and kind of like talk to the teachers and explain and try and, you know, she'd get upset with the way the teachers had handled it because we always felt like that kid would just be back in school the next day. And my mom didn't feel happy with the justice system, I guess, in the school of how, how this was being taken care of. And, you know, I'm talking about being like seven, eight years old. Uh, while this is going on nine, 10 years old, all the way through till about probably like 10 years old, I think this was going on. I'm sure there's more and I'm happy to unpack more, but I'm like, that's what I think of

• 10:45Jay Shetty?

  when I think of being a child, if that makes sense.

• 10:48Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, and, and it's interesting when somebody's asked, I think, to tell somebody else about their childhood, initially, the first things that come to mind are often very defining things that create some part of your identity. You mentioned something about like, there's things I remember, there's probably things I don't remember, things that maybe I've pushed away. And for this to be the first thing that comes to your mind makes me very sad. It makes me very sad for little Jay. You know, that's trauma. It's to experience trauma repeatedly, over and over again. Little kids, school is their world, school is shaping their worldview. And to live day in and day out, being afraid of going into the place that's supposed to

• 11:31Haesue Jo?

  be one of the safest places for school. I can, I can see that turning into becoming an adult that feels like the world is unsafe, that people are untrustworthy, I cannot let other people in. I have to be very, very discerning about who I connect with, because it sounds like folks that maybe you had attempted to connect with turned around and pushed you into stinging nettles.

• 11:53Jay Shetty?

  I think at that time, I just felt quite alienated in school. I, I wouldn't say it was people I was, I didn't feel a sense of betrayal at that age. It was more just kids that I knew or didn't know. It was more neutral, I'd say. But it kind of changed when somehow, like, I was like, considered the dorkiest overweight kid in school, like, that's how I was referred to. And then I became friends somehow with the toughest kid in school, who no one would argue with. And I don't know why he became my friend till this day. I'd love to ask him. His name's Ian and uh, Ian and I became best friends and we bonded over football, soccer, and we bonded over just, I don't know what, I think that was it.

• 12:36Jay Shetty?

  I think it was as simple as like, what football team do you support? And then we supported the same team. And so then that became our like, and I guess when you're that age, there's not much more to your personality. And so, but me and him became best friends. And then all of a sudden, no one would wanna fight with me because he was my best friend. And he was really tough. And when I said tougher, being like, he was short and not like, you wouldn't consider him to be strong. But he was someone who just was extremely powerful. You would not wanna get into a fight with him. And we became friends. And then from that day, I felt far more protected and kind of safer because he was around and that he'd get involved if anyone was to cross the line.

• 13:17Haesue Jo?

  I'm glad that you had that moment of meeting someone so that it sounds like the next years were not as brutal.

• 13:24Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 13:25Haesue Jo?

  I mean, what do you, what do you remember about coming home after these days that you were just ostracized or picked on and even beat up? Like you said, did you wanna go back to school the next day? Or like, how did you feel about school in general?

• 13:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it's really interesting, you know? And when you were saying you were sad earlier, I was like, I don't genuinely have sad memories in the sense of, I think my mom, I felt so loved by my mom. And her values or my parents' values of me doing well at school were so ingrained that I actually remember, I remember being scared of going to school for sure. And I remember not wanting to go to school every day because of this, for sure. That, that is definitely there. And I never missed a day, I would go back. So it wasn't that I actually took days off. I would go back the next day, even when I was scared. I think my parents were very much like, school's about doing well. We'll take care of this, this doesn't, not that it doesn't matter in the sense that it's not important. It's that.

• 14:24Jay Shetty?

  This isn't why you're there. You're not going there for those people. You're going there for your future. I think there was a lot of love from my parents. My home with my mom especially felt extremely safe. Like I, I feel like she created like this really beautiful, loving environment where I felt protected. And even when I felt embarrassed, there were times I felt embarrassed when your mom comes in, saves the day at school. Like that's massively embarrassing as a kid.

• 14:47Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:47Jay Shetty?

  But now, when I look back, I think I look back in that in a healthy way where I'm like, oh no, my mom had my back. She always turned up. She never made me feel unloved. She never let me feel that me being overweight or a color of my skin was a disadvantage. And I think that's what was interesting is that when I think about my parents, they never made me feel that the color of my skin was a disadvantage. They were just like, this is just who you are. So it wasn't a good thing or a bad thing. It's just this is who you are. And I think that at least helped me is what I can say. That helped me because I don't think that I ever saw myself as better or worse than people. I just saw myself as I am. And so I think there were a lot of good values in there.

• 15:32Jay Shetty?

  Maybe not even consciously from my parents, but at least ones that I feel I've extrapolated by reflection where I'm like, oh yeah, like, you know, my parents never said, oh yeah, they do that because we're Indian. And they didn't tell me stories like that. Like my parents, I don't think my parents ever told me what they went through until I got older and I asked them. Like my mom and dad were both bullied for being Indian. And my mom moved to London when she was 16. And so, you know, she went, she went through a lot when she moved to London. And so I don't even think they ever told me those stories. So they didn't, for me at least, I feel they didn't reinforce what was going on. Not that they thought what was going on was okay, but they were trying to defend me, the human, not me.

• 16:16Jay Shetty?

  Because I was overweight because of what color of my skin. So it wasn't like, oh, well, you need to lose weight. Or, you know, it wasn't, those weren't the topics of conversation, if that makes sense.

• 16:24Haesue Jo?

  Resilience was being built for you at home with love, with presence, with support from your family. You even said that there's things that you were probably learning out of this that they weren't making very explicit. And, and something I was thinking of is even like this thing of you're going back to school because even though this difficult thing is happening, there's a reason and there's a bigger purpose. And there's something about your future that's important. And that's why you're going to keep going back. There's a big lesson in that for all of us. It's even when something is very difficult, something doesn't feel good, something is scary. When there's this other meaning or this other reason to keep doing it, you muster up something inside of you to continue, to keep going. That is resilience and that's persistence.

• 17:10Haesue Jo?

  That's something that everybody needs, I think, to achieve whatever they want to. So it sounds like you were both struggling with something in a social sense with a lot of other kids, but also building something inside outwardly that a lot of people don't have the opportunity to really encounter.

• 17:28Jay Shetty?

  That feels right now. And of course you can't, I wish I could go back and put myself in the mindset of that day and be like, how did I feel that day? And I'm sure I felt scared and I'm sure I felt embarrassed. I'm sure I didn't feel like I do now where I'm like, I was developing resilience. You know, like I'm sure I don't now I feel like that. But I'm sure when I was there that day, I just felt like this is the worst thing ever. I'm sure there were days like that. They just, they just don't seem to be the thoughts that have stayed with me. I think the thoughts that I took away were just, you know, kids were mean. It was a tough time. Definitely there were some really tough days. I remember, this was a bit later on. I think we were in sixth grade, just before you go to high school. And so I remember, this is by the time I felt that.

• 18:14Jay Shetty?

  I wasn't getting beaten up anymore. So at least the violence had stopped, right? Like the, the, the physical abuse had stopped. You know, coming home with a black eye and like having your clothes ripped and stuff like that. Like that definitely can't have been fun. I just, I almost can't even access how I felt at that time, if I'm completely honest. Like it feels like I'm talking about someone else.

• 18:32Haesue Jo?

  So does it bring up feelings for you now?

• 18:35Jay Shetty?

  No, it's so distant. This is why I wanted to do this. It's like, it's so, I've always wanted to know, like, am I not excavating enough? Or like, it's so distant that it almost feels like I'm watching my own life. Like, I don't, I'm like, I don't even remember that happening to me, but I know it happened. Like, if that makes sense, like, I remember it happening. I can talk about it. I can, I remember even, I can visualize it. Like, while I'm talking to you, I can visualize exactly what my school uniform looked like, exactly what I looked like that day. Like, I can remember that, but I don't have a strong sense of emotion attached to it. And I don't know how that happens. Like, how does that exist where I can remember the event? I can remember who beat me up. I can remember what it looked like. I remember most of how, you know, how it ended up.

• 19:18Jay Shetty?

  I remember telling my mom about it, but I can do it almost without any sense of pain. And I don't know how that exists.

• 19:28Haesue Jo?

  Do you think that someone is supposed to feel a certain way with that kind of stuff? And how, how are you supposed to feel?

• 19:34Jay Shetty?

  That's a great question. And I think I often struggle with that, where when I look at previous struggles in my life, and I think I look at most of them the way I just explained to you now. I think sometimes I feel guilty that I don't feel bad about bad stuff that happened to me. But I don't, I just, not that I'm not saying it's okay or that I condone it or that. I definitely don't reflect this onto other people. And I think that's where I've, I, I don't look at it. I never think, oh, I went through hard times and I'm fine, so everyone should be fine. Obviously, I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing today if I felt that way. I sometimes wonder, I'm like, why don't I feel bad? And me and my best friend will often talk about this because he has a similar take on it. And we always ask ourselves that question. It's like, what's wrong with us? Like, why do we not feel worse about what we went through?

• 20:18Jay Shetty?

  Because a lot of people might feel worse. So I think, yeah, you're right. I feel, I feel guilty sometimes. I'm like, well, maybe I should feel more pain because of what happened. Or sometimes I question, I'm like, Am I just, am I closing myself off from it? Am I defending myself from a really bad trauma? Am I protecting myself from something I don't know? Like, I'll ask those questions sometimes. And the answer doesn't go anywhere. And I'll like sit there and I'll be like, no, I'm good. I'm fine.

• 20:45Haesue Jo?

  I mean, some part of you seems to think that you are supposed to feel something different than you feel now. And I think the reality is like, you feel what you feel and sometimes you don't. And sometimes you did feel something and you don't remember. And I'm understanding you're like, kind of wondering, did I feel something and I just pushed it away? If that's the reality, if that's the reality, we may never know, right? Like, I don't know of the technology yet to be able to access something like that in a mental time travel type of thing. But I think even now, like, when we think about repression of memories or like the avoidance of painful past, these things are coping mechanisms. And even if we're not consciously aware of this stuff happening,

• 21:27Haesue Jo?

  it makes sense for a very powerful psyche to try to protect us from something. And, you know, if you and your best friend, example, for, as an example, are now reliving a painful memory and those feelings on a constant basis, would you be able to do anything, accomplish anything? Like, those that are sulking in the pain of yesterday are often the ones that are unable to propel themselves towards something better for today and tomorrow. It's very evident that you're doing very well for today and tomorrow all the time, not just for you, but for so many other people. If anything, it seems like a protective factor, maybe that you're not really aware of, to separate yourself from the feelings that you probably may have experienced at that time.

• 22:09Haesue Jo?

  We, as people, are so interesting in that way because, you know, we remember some stuff and don't. And some things, we think we don't remember, but then something triggers a memory, right? Like, somebody mentions something, and I'm sure we've all had that experience, like, oh, my God, I haven't thought about this thing in so long. But you just unlocked something.

• 22:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 22:26Haesue Jo?

  So I don't think we necessarily need to live our lives like searching for all the things to unlock the past.

• 22:32Jay Shetty?

  That's helpful, yeah.

• 22:33Haesue Jo?

  Especially if our present moment is still something that we're thriving in, something that we're able to share good things with other people with. So.

• 22:41Jay Shetty?

  That's helpful. That's very helpful. That's very reassuring. I think a lot of people, I often talk to people about the difference between thinking and overthinking. And. I think there is something to be said for like that over analysis, the overthinking of trying to find something. And it's like, well, I can't. I can see connections in how being bullied led to me definitely at an early age becoming more empathetic. Like, I saw myself wanting, I really got upset or would feel other people's pain early on if someone was being bullied around me. Mm hmm. So I could deal with it, but it's if, if, if we were sitting in a group and someone was bullying you. Mm hmm.

• 23:23Jay Shetty?

  I would be very protective of you and I would sense that very early because I could tell how this person felt towards you. And then I would be like, oh, I wouldn't want to go through that. And then I would stand up for the person or I would try and get involved in some way because I think I just, I know what it felt like to be called names. I know what it felt like to be beaten up. I know what it felt like to have the hurt at that time. And I realized just how sad it was. Mm hmm. Because, yeah, the story I was about to tell you was, so I remember in, in sixth grade, or fifth or sixth grade, I came in late to school. Maybe I had a doctor's appointment or maybe we were running late with my mom. I can't remember. And I was late. And there

• 24:05Jay Shetty?

  was this one girl in our class that everyone had a crush on, right? Sixth grade crush. Everyone, I still remember her name. I still, I, I, I remember. So I even remember how she looked. Like, it's just so clear. It's crazy. That's the kind of stuff I can remember. And so we all had a crush on her in sixth grade. And all the guys had a crush on her. And we would talk about how we all had a crush on her, but I would never talk about it too much because I knew she was out of my league, right? Like, it was that kind of like feeling as a kid. Oh, anyone who's listening, by the way, if you're not watching, I was doing quotation marks around outside of my league. So I would never talk about that, but all the guys knew. And then this day I came in late to school, everyone was like

• 24:47Jay Shetty?

  looking at me weird. The girls were laughing. The guys were laughing. And then I was wondering what was going on. And obviously, the teacher's speaking, so I can't ask friends. I can't talk in class. And then my friend writes me a note. And and he's on the note, it said, oh, um, we told her that you like her.

• 25:06Haesue Jo?

  Oh.

• 25:06Jay Shetty?

  And so like, not only was she told that I liked her, she was told that I was the only guy who liked her in school. And so none of the other guys owned up to this crush. It was only that I was put out there. And I remember, and this was, this was painful for sure. Uh, and I often look to this moment for so much courage. And I think I, I almost use these events as like, I went through that when I was that age. I can do a lot of stuff today. Uh, I remember like I played, I was playing football again and football was, I think football was my first love. So it kind of turns up in so many of my stories and I used to play in goal. I was never allowed to play on the field because I wasn't mobile or agile enough.

• 25:44Jay Shetty?

  Compared to all the other kids as they thought. So I'd be in goal and the girl stood behind the goal that day and just called me names for like an hour of lunchtime. And I remember them saying things like, oh, you're so overweight. I can't believe you think that, not she's in your league, but that kind of thing like, can't believe you think you could have got her and that kind of, and, and that, when I talk about that, that definitely makes me feel sad. I'm like, yeah, that was, that was painful. Like that's a memory that I do have emotion attached to. I'm like, yeah, that felt really, really tough because, phew, like it's your first crush. I think she's the first girl I've ever had a crush on in my life at the time. And then it, and then to be feeling like you, I didn't even want her to know. I knew she wasn't in my league. I knew she wasn't.

• 26:28Haesue Jo?

  You were trying to prevent this thing.

• 26:30Jay Shetty?

  Happening. Yeah. I was like, I know that she's far more prettier than I am and cuter than I am and all that stuff. I'm already aware of that. And the last thing I needed is to be caught out for that. So that, that definitely telling that story actually has more pain in, in it than talking about getting beaten up or the racism actually. So.

• 26:47Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, I was experiencing the secondhand embarrassment for you. Like, oh God, like that's what you didn't want happening. This, this experience is like out of your league thing. I think it's like, you quoted one of these kids behind you, like you think you had a chance. It's like, no, I didn't. That's why I didn't want to say anything.

• 27:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I didn't. I knew I didn't have a chance.

• 27:06Haesue Jo?

  Right, right.

• 27:06Jay Shetty?

  I knew I didn't have a chance. And I would say I actually felt pretty confident about who I was before teenage, before becoming a teenager. And I'd say actually, when I got into my teens, that's where I became less confident. I think up until my teenage years, it was like, I was a good student. I worked hard. I was a good son, you know, I can not check all those things off. And I was like, yeah, my identity is very secure.

• 27:30Haesue Jo?

  You're sure of those things.

• 27:31Jay Shetty?

  I was sure of those things. So regardless of all this other stuff, I was like, but that doesn't matter. Like, the goal of life at that age was not to get this girl to like me. Like, that wasn't the goal of life. The goal was to get into a good high school. Like, I guess the training of, the conditioning of my parents was, you're only here to get into a good high school, to do well in school. And so I think I was so busy with exams and homework and studying really, really hard that I didn't really think anything else was important at the time. I had enough good friends as time has gone on, like, a small group, but I had enough

• 28:03Jay Shetty?

  friends that I think got me through it now when I look back then. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. I know how important every hire is for a business. If you need to make the right hire, this is a job for sponsored jobs. Indeed sponsored jobs helps find quality candidates when you need the most. You can reach who you need based on whatever criteria you're looking for, like skills, certifications, or location. In fact, people are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes.

• 28:45Jay Shetty?

  Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are, but it can be challenging to balance style, budget, and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated, calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favorite place to anchor my day.

• 29:28Jay Shetty?

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• 30:11Jay Shetty?

  who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

• 30:38Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, you had a support system. You had these factors in your life to kind of outweigh any of the negative stuff you had been going through. I keep thinking of this like, this overarching theme of being othered. This is like a term a lot of people are talking about these days. So what does that mean to you? What is it to be othered?

• 30:56Jay Shetty?

  What does it mean to me now or what did it mean to me then?

• 30:58Haesue Jo?

  Now.

• 30:59Jay Shetty?

  Now, when you said that, the first thing that came to my mind, I was like, yeah, of course. Like, that's my strength, that I'm othered. Like, I, when I heard, the first thing that came to my mind when you said that, I was like, yeah, that's why I love being, I love being othered. Like, now, like, I love being different and I love being unique. I, I've realised very much in the past few years that I, I've sat with this idea for a long time, I think. That root of that is I've always wanted to be understood. More than even liked or more than validated, which I think, and we can talk about that maybe another term or whenever. But I think that I worked on when I became a monk in terms of being liked and validated.

• 31:41Jay Shetty?

  But I think I've always craved to be understood because I've had, I consider myself to be someone of, I always say to everyone, like, the only credit I will give myself is that I consider myself to have pure intentions. Like, that I will hold with my hand on my heart. I'm a good person. I want good things for good, for people. I, I think about good things. I, I don't have any agendas. I'm not trying to manipulate. So it's not, it's not who I am because of how my mom raised me. So I'm, I have pure intentions. And so because of that, I really have found it for years very hard to be misunderstood by people. Because I'm like, I wanted you to win. Like, I only want good things. So if someone thinks otherwise.

• 32:21Jay Shetty?

  I had an episode the other day where someone who I don't know very well, but again, I made the false assumption that they should know me because of people we both know and how much those people respect me or, or have a connection with me. I assumed that they would understand that too. And they were feeling a bit of uneasiness about trusting me on something and that really upset me. I said to them that my trust and my integrity is all I have. Like, that's, that's what I, you know, like, carry myself on. And so for you to think otherwise, upset me. So I guess when I hear othered, now I'm like, I feel to me it means to be misunderstood

• 33:06Jay Shetty?

  and not even given a chance to be understood. And now when I reflect on it, I actually realize, I don't think anyone will, I'm not sure. I haven't yet come to an understanding of whether anyone has the power to fully understand anyone. It's so hard to understand ourselves. And I think often I hoped.

• 33:28Jay Shetty?

  People would understand me, but even if I walk into this conversation, I'm like, you're a therapist. You should understand me fully. I think that's a lot of pressure on another human being. And I think even if I told you every detail of my story, point by point, I still don't think someone could fully understand me because it's so big. And so to me today, I see being othered, or the word other is like a strength.

• 33:55Jay Shetty?

  Because I go, yeah, I am different. And yeah, othered is what led me on this unique path. And othered is what led me to take risks. Maybe if I felt a part of the crew always, I wouldn't have become a monk. And then I wouldn't have quit being a monk to work in the corporate world. And then I wouldn't have quit being in the corporate world to follow my passion and pursue my purpose to share wisdom with others. Like I've just constantly taken so many risks in my life and I've constantly felt othered every time I took the risk. Because how many 22 year olds were becoming monks? And how many 29 year olds were quitting their safe job to pursue their passion? And so othered, becoming othered has become my strength now.

• 34:31Haesue Jo?

  Now.

• 34:32Jay Shetty?

  That's how, now, yeah, that's how it feels now, today, yeah.

• 34:35Haesue Jo?

  You had asked me, am I asking you about how I feel about it now or back then? So tell me, how did you feel about it back then?

• 34:42Jay Shetty?

  Completely the opposite, right?

• 34:43Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, what's the difference?

• 34:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, like back then, if I talk about being othered, it's like you feel left out. You feel like the loser in school. You feel like the loner. I felt, you know, I remember now this, I probably never barely think about this, but my mom would often make me pack lunch. And all my friends would eat school dinners. And if you ate packed lunch, you'd sit separately to the kids who ate school dinners. You weren't allowed to sit together.

• 35:05Haesue Jo?

  Wow, great school idea.

• 35:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And not many people ate packed lunches in my school. Most people ate school dinners. And so I would sit alone during lunch. And then my food would smell different because it was often Indian. People would look at it and point fingers and be like, what's that? That smells weird.

• 35:21Haesue Jo?

  Ew, like that kind of stuff.

• 35:22Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I used to hide my food and eat it. And I actually think it's so far, I've never drawn this thing, but I think I still have it today. I used to eat my food really quickly.

• 35:31Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:31Jay Shetty?

  And that's been a habit I've had to untrain so hard because even in my adult life, I've always eaten really quickly.

• 35:38Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:38Jay Shetty?

  And when my wife sees me and she's massively into diet and Ayurveda and, you know, nutrition. And so she's eating slowly and being present and mindful in food. When I was a monk as well, it was, it was one of the tough things because mindful eating was such a big practice. But I've noticed that I've always been a fast eater and I wonder whether I actually developed that back then. Whereas like, I didn't want anyone to see what I was eating.

• 35:58Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Jay Shetty?

  And so I almost have, like, my wife would sometimes see me eat and she'd be like, what is wrong with you? Like, you, you eat as if like, you know, you're not gonna get another meal. Like, you, you eat so fast. And that's my earliest memory of eating fast because I didn't want people to see what I was eating. And that's like, the quicker I eat it, the less I'll get judged for it. And so that othering was not, I didn't look at that and go, oh, that's cool.

• 36:19Haesue Jo?

  Right, especially at that age, for whatever reason, I think like so much of us feel hardwired to wanna belong, to be part of the group, to find acceptance with others. And it's, it's almost sounding like this whole kind of childhood experience may have impacted your relationship with food. You mentioned being overweight and I imagine there's just like so much going on with that. Especially with kids, like you're eating certain amounts of food at school. It's a little bit controlled. It's outside of school that's affecting all of that.

• 36:52Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Haesue Jo?

  So there is a stark difference here of your experience with other at that time and your experience now.

• 36:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:59Haesue Jo?

  Do you recall like when that shift happened and?

• 37:01Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 37:02Haesue Jo?

  What contributed to that?

• 37:03Jay Shetty?

  I think also for a long time in my physical health.

• 37:07Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:08Jay Shetty?

  I felt that if I was skinny, I was healthy.

• 37:10Haesue Jo?

  I think a lot of people believe that.

• 37:12Jay Shetty?

  Idea, which was a terrible idea, right? Like, that doesn't make, that's not true at all.

• 37:16Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:17Jay Shetty?

  And so, yeah, I would think as long as I'm skinny, I'm healthy. And then when I went through some health issues.

• 37:22Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 37:23Jay Shetty?

  I was like, oh, like that, that wasn't the right metric to be looking at. But for so long in my teens, that was the metric that I held on to because that's the only metric that I had for health. My parents always wanted me to be healthy, but I don't think we talked about health in a healthy way necessarily. When I married my wife, that was far more the transition from the food point of view, where I think food became healing and healthier when I married her, which is only six years ago. Up until that point, I don't think I had the healthiest ideas about food and, and how it can be healing. But, but when you were saying, when did that shift happen? I think what's really interesting is that even though I sound very confident in being a kid, when I became a teenager, it kind of flipped the other way where it was like, now all that mattered was validation.

• 38:09Jay Shetty?

  Now all that mattered was fitting in. Now all that matters. So that's what I was saying that I almost went from being confident in who I was, even through all this hardship, then to almost throw it out the window. When I became a teenager to be like, I wasn't confident in who I was. What I remember of being a teenager was I wanted to be liked. I wanted to be approved of. I wanted to be validated. I didn't like being othered. I, I hoped that people would see me as a part of the group. And I think that's what led me towards getting involved in a lot of the wrong circles because that was more considered cool and interesting. And now you weren't being left out. It was almost like you were the one to keep up with because you were doing the risky stuff

• 38:54Jay Shetty?

  or the, the stuff you're not allowed to do.

• 38:56Haesue Jo?

  That's still socially acceptable.

• 38:58Jay Shetty?

  That's still socially acceptable. Yeah, it's like the mystery was what made you more interesting. And so even though I felt so uncomfortable with drugs or smoking weed or getting into fights or any of that stuff, I would hang around those circles because I felt that validated me or made me more interesting at the time. If that makes sense. And so now I didn't want to be left out for being the loser. I was so scared of that, that I was willing to do things that were completely out of alignment with my values in order to be liked.

• 39:32Haesue Jo?

  Right.

• 39:33Jay Shetty?

  And, and that was very uncomfortable, I think. That was, that was really tough because you're then constantly living in a state of fear of, what if they figure out this isn't me? So you're scared of the group you're in. And then you're also scared because you're not living a life that's authentic to you. So you've almost got two fears of what if I get found out by all these cool kids that I'm not that cool?

• 39:58Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:59Jay Shetty?

  And I'm scared because I actually don't want to have a fight today, but I have to because that makes me more interesting somehow.

• 40:07Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:08Jay Shetty?

  Which sounds ridiculous, but.

• 40:09Haesue Jo?

  Makes sense to a seventeen year old, I'm sure.

• 40:11Jay Shetty?

  Exactly, yeah, yeah.

• 40:12Haesue Jo?

  This feeling of being scared, this is like, kind of the first time you're recalling a feeling, right? You even said that a lot of your childhood experiences, you can't remember feeling anything. And even when you recall them, you don't feel much about it. But this thing, you remember feeling scared and you say now with good reflection, these are the things I think I was scared of. Do you think sixteen, seventeen year old, you understood what you were scared of? And if so, like, what was it that you were scared of?

• 40:40Jay Shetty?

  No, definitely not. I think at that time, I was just scared of being left out. I was scared of being seen as a loser, like I was at primary school, I guess. Like, you know, I think that was it. It was like, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be that kid anymore.

• 40:53Haesue Jo?

  Because what happens to kids like that? What happens to losers?

• 40:56Jay Shetty?

  You get bullied more, you get, you know, and I did in the earlier stages. So I lost weight around fifteen years old. And so I'd say even in high school, like eleven to fifteen, I was still bullied for the same reasons. I remember like in high school, we started swimming. I went to all boys school, which everyone has their own views about that stuff. I personally loved the school I went to for high school, in hindsight. When I was there, I'm not sure, but I'm very grateful I went there. It's a fantastic school and I definitely have such a great relationship with this school. I remember a few memories quite vividly of like not being able to, we weren't allowed to use the steps to get out the swimming pool.

• 41:31Haesue Jo?

  Huh.

• 41:32Jay Shetty?

  At school and I, and I couldn't get out.

• 41:34Haesue Jo?

  Oh, like pushing yourself?

• 41:36Jay Shetty?

  Push myself out of a pool. And I remember like being bullied for that when I was like eleven or twelve years old, again, because of my size and weight. And then I remembered, you know, you're in a changing room now with a bunch of dudes and you're playing rugby, which was our, our school sport. And like, you're taking your top off and people are laughing at you for how you look and all of that kind of stuff. And so I think to me, I'd actually started high school where I left off. And I think when I naturally started to lose weight, when the bullying stopped, I was like, oh, I need to hold on to this now. It's almost like, things are turning in our favor, if that makes sense. So I started to feel like, oh, now I could be one of the cool kids and that would save me from.

• 42:19Jay Shetty?

  The pain and the stress that I went through as being a loser or being, you know, loser. Again, quotation marks, because I didn't want to be that anymore. I think I'd suffered for so long. It's almost like that's what I felt then was I was like, we've been through this for enough time. Like it's now time to not be that and we're going to do whatever it takes to to not be treated that way.

• 42:40Haesue Jo?

  Because you used so much of whatever it was that got you through it the first time. It's like, no, thank you. Don't need to do that again.

• 42:47Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, don't want to go through it again. And it was harder when you're older and it was harder with kids who had more than a couple of mean words. And it was harder when, I wasn't getting beaten up at this time, but it was, it was harder when I guess you were older and you could process it more, I guess. Like almost like being a kid. Maybe I wasn't processing it as as long.

• 43:06Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, processing it differently. Sounds like it's it's always been very valuable to you for people to understand you. And now in your, like later in your life, I'm I'm I'm hearing that like, being understood is more important than being liked. So in that, I'm I'm guessing for you, you'd rather that somebody seeks to understand you and then they can decide whether they like you or not.

• 43:29Jay Shetty?

  That's now, that's today. I think, well, now I've realized people, I don't think most people have the time to understand anyone. But I think at that time I wanted to be liked, like that time I wanted to be liked. I wanted to be popular. I wanted to be validated at the time at school because I just dealt with the opposite for so long. Right? I think I was exhausted. My resilience almost, if if I had any resilience at that age, my resilience was exhausted. I was done being resilient. I was like, this is too hard now.

• 43:57Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 43:57Jay Shetty?

  Like this can't be the next, you know, seven years or whatever it is. So I think that led me to a lot of bad decisions because I was just craving people's approval during my teens. And you become someone you don't want to be when you're craving approval from people that. Aren't aligned with your values and that's all I did.

• 44:18Haesue Jo?

  Damn it.

• 44:19Jay Shetty?

  It was almost like I didn't want to be seen as the good kid anymore. I didn't want to be seen as the kid who did well at school. I didn't want to be seen as the kid who performed perfectly. Like, I remember when I went to school at eleven, my goal was to be head boy. Head boy was this role. I don't know what you have in the US.

• 44:36Haesue Jo?

  Not that, but I learned of head boy in Harry Potter.

• 44:39Jay Shetty?

  Right, yeah, exactly. There we go. Harry Potter is the British reference to American. Okay, that makes sense. I should, I love Harry Potter, so that makes sense. But yeah, that was the idea. Like, my goal at age eleven, this is how much of a quotation mark dork I was at the time. Like, the idea was, I wanted to be head boy when I went to school. And when I was sixteen years old at school, the last thing I would have wanted to be was head boy, because I thought it was the most uncool thing to be. And so it's like, that's how much I'd switched my values. And I, I lived out the latter of that, where we had multiple roles, where, again, I think Harry Potter has this, but we had multiple roles in school, where you had head boy, you had prefects, who were like these, right? Like, you have all this kind of like, you know, and I didn't even,

• 45:23Jay Shetty?

  like, pretty much everyone in my year made it to like some level. And I, I was one of three kids out of one hundred and eighty that had no standing in that structure.

• 45:33Haesue Jo?

  I mean, you were avoiding it.

• 45:34Jay Shetty?

  I was avoiding it. I was avoiding it so hard that it had completely gone the other way. And now, when I'm reflecting on that, it was exactly that, that I completely traded. I guess I, now when I'm looking at it, it was like, to me, I was like pivoting my values to figure out what they were. And they definitely, I wasn't, now I wasn't happy with the values that I got through primary school with. I wasn't. I was like, I don't want to be the good kid who always behaves, who always gets good grades, who then gets bullied for getting those good grades, who then experiences racism for getting those good grades. Like, that can't be life. And so let's do the opposite. Let's, let's do everything wrong, because there are only two options and that must be the way.

• 46:11Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, like, why would somebody keep doing this thing that they're thinking is the reason behind being ostracized or punished?

• 46:18Jay Shetty?

  Correct, exactly. So when you asked, what do you feel about being othered? I'd actually say that I didn't feel comfortable being othered. And so I traded everything that made me feel othered, only to feel othered the other way, where now that I was breaking rules, there were also lots of kids going like, why are you doing this? Like, what's wrong with you? Like, why do you need to always, you know? Do something extreme to to stand out. And I was like, oh, this doesn't work either.

• 46:43Haesue Jo?

  Extreme efforts to calibrate, try to figure out where you fit in this world.

• 46:48Jay Shetty?

  Totally, yeah. I definitely wasn't happy as a teen in that sense. I think it was hard for me to make real friends because the kids that I wanted to be friends with, who'd be considered good kids, their parents didn't want them spending time with me because I was the bad influence. The kids that I did spend time with, that my parents wouldn't want me spending time with, they never respected you because you were always having to do something more stupid or more ridiculous to gain everyone's respect. So that wasn't friendship either. Like, you didn't feel you didn't feel safe around those kids because those kids always made you feel inferior unless you were gonna do the next difficult thing.

• 47:24Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. It's like you're their show performance little monkey.

• 47:28Jay Shetty?

  Totally. And then you don't feel safe around the kids who are well behaved or whatever, because they somehow doubt that you're the person their parents wanted to be around.

• 47:36Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 47:37Jay Shetty?

  So it's kind of like you don't feel, again, you feel other, even at the other extreme. So it's like, I'm not cool enough to be with the the bad kids. And again, I don't want to put labels on bad kids and good kids, but I'm just using it as overarching terminology. But, you know, you're not you're not cool enough to be around kids who break the rules. But you're not enjoying being well behaved enough around the kids who do well, if that makes sense, at school.

• 48:00Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. And and a lot of what you're describing, I think, is like universally relatable to lots of youths. It doesn't matter what country you grew up in, but a lot of these dynamics end up showing up in school. On top of that, you've mentioned this a couple of times, and we haven't really gotten into it, is racism. Experiencing racism as such a small child, not really probably being able to process what's even happening or understanding what that's like. So as you reflect on it now as an adult, can you tell me a bit about that experience?

• 48:31Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think there were days growing up where, and this was very subconscious. I can only probably think about this now, but I think I grew up, and there were definitely, if I'm completely honest, there were probably days where I wished I was an Indian, because. People made fun of people with Indian accents. I was born and raised in London, so and obviously I've lived in the States for the last six years. So I have somewhat of a British, New York, LA, like mix of whatever my accent sounds like now. But yeah, I just didn't think people thought Indian people had a identity or a Like reduced to something. Totally, yeah. And so I've spoken to my American friends about this, but it's like, almost like when you watch The Simpsons, you see Apu. And then I remember the first time I went to a barber shop when I came to LA and I wanted to get my hair cut.

• 49:16Jay Shetty?

  And the lady at the barber shop was really confused by my accent and how I spoke based on how I looked. And she was like, well, where are you from? And I was like, I'm from London. And she was like, oh, like, I literally thought everyone who looked Indian like spoke like Apu. Like, that was her literal statement to me. That's in LA, like, and I moved to LA four years ago. This isn't like Very recently. Yeah, this isn't like decades ago. And I was like, wow, like, you know, and there was a part of me that had that feeling growing up where I didn't think being Indian, these are again, my teens, I didn't think being Indian was a strength or was, I saw as a weakness. I don't have a very confident answer on that, but yeah, there were parts of that. And it's, it's, it's so fascinating to me now when I look at it, I'm like,

• 50:01Jay Shetty?

  you know, India's wisdom became like my heart and soul and, you know, spending time in India and my monkhood. And it's, it's so fascinating to think that there were so many, there's so many contradictions in my life. And I almost go in the direction that contradicts what I'm feeling at the time, only to discover more depth in that, in that pursuit. You know, where now I consider the wisdom I gained from the eastern literatures to be one of the greatest gifts in my entire life. Yeah, it's just interesting connecting the dots. I've always found connecting the dots at multiple stages in my life very interesting and Yeah, connected. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too.

• 50:46Jay Shetty?

  Like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

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• 52:10Haesue Jo?

  I think Dots, like, fully embracing something that you previously rejected as part of, you know, understanding of yourself, it sounds like. I'm feeling like it wasn't like when you were a kid that you were overtly thinking and absorbing it as like, these people don't like me because I'm Indian. It's more just, they have an idea of what an Indian is supposed to be, and I don't want to be that.

• 52:36Jay Shetty?

  Correct. I guess that in them teenage ages, it's just like, what can I mold myself to that everyone will like? I think it was as simple as that, right? It was like, what will everyone applaud? And like, I remember being a class clown and doing stupid stuff as a class clown because that got the approval of my peers. And now when I look back, I would never do something like that. Yeah, and I think that all started to change definitely when I became a monk. Because when I started spending time with monks, because I went from almost being confident in my parents' identity, up till 10 years old, to then rejecting my parents' identity and trying to be everything everyone wanted to be, to then choosing to become a monk, which was the most random thing to become.

• 53:20Jay Shetty?

  Purely because the most inspirational and interesting person I'd met by the time I was twenty one, twenty two was a monk. And that was the reason, it was like, this person's figured out life, they're confident, they are happy, they are content, and they found it through being a monk. And they're helping other people, those all seem like good values, right? Like, when I talk about why I became a monk, it was, I loved meeting someone who had focused on mastering envy and ego and jealousy and comparison and like, he was a person who was talking about how that's what you learned, being a monk. And I was like, well, that makes sense, because none of those things have served me.

• 54:03Jay Shetty?

  And I remember thinking that at eighteen, where I was like, when I first met him, I was like, yeah, like, comparing myself to others, feeling envious, having an ego, like, none of those things have helped me, and they don't seem like useful things. And then he was talking about how talent and skills and gifts were to help people, and that life was about serving people, and life was about improving other people's lives. And I was like, I think that resonated with me too, because I guess I'd seen people have painful lives. That made sense, and so I was like, all right, I want that. And I think when I first started my monkhood, I even redirected the validation to the monks. So it was almost like I went from wanting my parents' validation, to wanting all my friends' validation, to then wanting the monks' validation.

• 54:46Haesue Jo?

  Which I imagine monks would say, like, this is not what you're here for.

• 54:48Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, yeah, and that's why I was the best shutdown, because your parents will validate you for doing what they said, right? They pretty much will, parents will generally say, yeah, good, well done. Your friends never validate you and make you feel inferior.

• 55:02Jay Shetty?

  And then it's like the monks teach you how to validate yourself, and what that means. And so I think that those three years, I learned the habits and the steps to like, what does it mean to validate myself? And I think when I had to leave, that's when I really learned to validate myself, because now I couldn't seek anyone's validation, because I'd just lived the randomest life, and no one could say to me, yeah, you're on the right path, because it was such a random path to go from... University to the monkhood, then back to reality. And so I think that was the moment where it clicked for me that the only person who could reassure me was me.

• 55:45Jay Shetty?

  And I think that was really tough, being othered again. Because the othering then was, before I became a monk, it was, you're never gonna get a job again, you're never gonna make money again. No one's ever gonna marry you. This is the worst decision. You're letting your parents down. You wasted their investment in your education. To then coming back to, we told you so. We knew you wouldn't make it as a monk. You wasted your life. You're now three years older. Didn't you see that friend of yours? They just bought a new car. They, they're getting a mortgage on a house, like, you know? And you come back to that and you're like, oh, wow, I'm out of place again. And so I think now I've just got so used to being out of place that it's become my place. And I enjoy it now. I, I, I love being out of place.

• 56:30Haesue Jo?

  This journey to monkhood, you, you listed some things about like, this inspirational, influential person that you met as a young person. And it's like, that's what I wanna be.

• 56:43Haesue Jo?

  Or at least it's like, I don't wanna be him, but I just wanna be someone.

• 56:45Jay Shetty?

  I did wanna be him, and I, and I failed. I can't. He's so amazing. He's incredible.

• 56:49Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, it's, it sounds like that journey turned into, from, I wanna be him, to, I wanna be someone that I, I wanna be.

• 56:56Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 56:58Haesue Jo?

  And, and those things you listed, like, somebody that is not comparing themselves to others, like, all these things. That stuff, I think, often is what leads people to bully other people. So I wonder if there's like some piece of you that wanted to understand the bullies?

• 57:12Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I, I definitely, I've never been a bully in my life, for sure. Like, that is never something I became. And even when I'm talking about being a class clown or things like that, it was never, oh, maybe I bullied teachers a bit. So, yeah, so I was a bully, but not bully to kids, which is even worse. I feel so terrible. Uh, I feel terrible saying that. Yeah, I, I bullied, yeah, we, we used to be, yeah, a class clown is a bully of teachers, but I didn't bully the kids. That doesn't make it any better, but. And then now I have good relationships with all those teachers, which is their kindness to me. I went back and apologized to everyone when I learned that I'd messed up. And thankfully, I think most of those teachers have forgiven me and kind of didn't take it. They didn't take it as seriously as I made it out to be, which was really kind of them and nice to them as well. Like they were just like, Jay, you were a kid, like it's fine.

• 57:56Jay Shetty?

  But I think I definitely felt at one point that I had to go back and apologize and just not feel like my actions were justified just because I was a kid.

• 58:04Haesue Jo?

  You had just mentioned that this inspirational person

• 58:08Jay Shetty?

  Right.

• 58:08Haesue Jo?

  Had all these qualities, right? And it's like, I was thinking while you were saying that, it's like, oh, those are some of the things that lead people to bully others, right? It's like their comparison stuff and just like the feelings that they have about themselves or not about themselves. And it's like, what do you think of the bullies, I guess, now that you've reflected so much on yourself? What about these people that caused your suffering? Do you think about them?

• 58:29Jay Shetty?

  And this is one of those things I feel bad about as well. Like it is something that I don't talk about it because I feel bad about it. It's like, I have just always been a very naturally forgiving person since I was a kid. Like I don't find forgiveness hard. And that's annoying sometimes because it can annoy people I love too. Because I can kind of move on and get on with stuff and understand that people didn't have. I kind of contextually will figure out what they didn't have. Again, forgiveness doesn't mean I allow bad things to happen around me or to people I love. I don't mean in that way. I mean that I've never been one to hold grudges. It's just not how I'm built and not how I'm wired. And so I don't think I wanted to understand the bullies.

• 59:13Jay Shetty?

  I think I wanted to help heal the bullies. Like, or just, I wanted to help heal myself and I wanted to help heal others. And I wanted the skills to do that because I just saw so much pain for no reason. I think that's how I've always felt. I feel like most conflict and most pain is based on such insignificant, irrelevant desires and emotions. In the sense of, you think about why people fight with each other or even at a grand scale, like why people do bad things. It's deep trauma, it's deep issue for them for sure, but it's, it's something that could have been helped if given the right support. And so there's a part of me that just believes that I just didn't want people to have to make bad decisions, just because they didn't, I made bad decisions in my life, not because I was a

• 59:58Jay Shetty?

  bad person, but because I didn't have good information. So I was like, if we gave people with bad experiences and bad parenting and bad childhoods, good tools and good skills and good experiences, then maybe they could avoid repeating that. And I think that's what I saw in the monks, where it almost felt like they'd renewed, or they'd regenerated, where they weren't carrying the weight of their past either. And I'm not saying that about every monk in the world, I'm just saying the ones that, the couple of people that I, you know, everyone in the monk who is also in hospital, in the sense that they're also all improving, it's not that you're

• 1:00:39Jay Shetty?

  perfect if you're there, but the few people that I'd seen had gone the distance, gave me faith that they were happier and more content than the person who's got the fancy job in my city and still feels insecure.

• 1:00:52Haesue Jo?

  Right.

• 1:00:53Jay Shetty?

  It was almost like seeing, I think it was more that I was seeing that the method of, I think by eighteen, I had seen people perfectly follow the academic system to get into a school to do a degree they didn't want to do. And I'd seen friends be extreme, take risks, make mistakes, get into trouble, potentially end up in jail or, you know, something of that. And so it's like, I'd seen the polar opposites of like, here's a kid who does everything wrong, who's ended up here, and here's a kid who does everything right, and they're not happy either. So then how does that make any sense? Like, the person who's ended up in prison or in trouble, or got kicked

• 1:01:38Jay Shetty?

  out of school, is not happy. And the person who's just got access to the best college in the country is not happy. Like, how does that make sense? And I think that's where I was like, and this guy's happy. Like, what has he figured out? And he's done something completely different, right? He's, he's not followed the status quo, and he's not, he's broken the status quo, but in a interesting way. And I don't think that that is only gained by being a monk, but it's an interesting idea that

• 1:02:10Jay Shetty?

  Fascinated me was I didn't want to follow the rules and I didn't want to break the rules. I wanted to find a way to not have rules or find better rules or create my own rules.

• 1:02:20Haesue Jo?

  Right, just like look for freedom of authenticity. You mentioned something about like, I wasn't able to live authentically and something deep inside of you wanted that. It sounds like really your whole life is about or has been about like identifying something that's desirable or undesirable and either fully embracing or fully rejecting it in order to get closer to this place of just feeling at peace. While, this seems very important to you, while being able to help other people and prevent any pain and suffering for them in whatever ways that I can. And it seems like the bullying, the racism, the ostracizing, all these things that you experienced as a child,

• 1:03:01Haesue Jo?

  like it's still with you now, you know, you don't want others to suffer because suffering doesn't feel good. And it seems like you took your suffering and turned it into something that's like really impactful.

• 1:03:14Jay Shetty?

  I would, I would hope so. And I think I did that since I was young with my parents. I'd listen to my parents about their challenges and their issues. And I'd sit with pretty much everyone since I was a kid and hear them out and, you know, walk them through it. And I think for a long time until I became a monk, I never had time for my own problems in one sense because you're already always dealing with other peoples and that's not smart. But yeah, I think you're right. I think there was a long time in my life where I definitely want to end optional pain.

• 1:03:41Haesue Jo?

  Mm hmm, optional pain.

• 1:03:43Jay Shetty?

  It's what you talk about, like there's, there's stuff that you want to end that you can control or help people end it so that they can stop that pattern in their family or that generational challenge or whatever it may be. So yeah, I think that was definitely a big part of why I followed this road. Yeah, definitely have put my pain into purpose and that sounds like a cliche and it sounds like a, you know, an over said thing maybe now. But when I was doing everything right or being the good kid, life wasn't fun. And I knew I wanted life to be a thrill. And then I thought being the bad kid was what gave me a thrill. But I actually didn't enjoy that thrill.

• 1:04:23Jay Shetty?

  It was very uncomfortable because none of what I was doing was aligned with my values. And I think the life I have today is a life that perfectly. My life is massively thrilling. It's so fun and it's purposeful and it's impactful. And so today I have that mix, but it took me going from one end of the spectrum to the other end of the spectrum to figure out. And I'm not saying it's a balance. I'm not saying it's in the middle. I don't think it is. I think it's just creation and invention and, and building of, yeah, who do I want to be? And am I okay being that? And am I okay being that? Even if I have pure intentions and even if I care and even if I'm trying to do the right thing, there will still be people who don't understand me and don't agree with me.

• 1:05:03Jay Shetty?

  And becoming okay with that has been really the goal of my life, like of recent of like, that's been what I've been focused on, at least for the last few years. Is how do I get acceptance of who I am genuinely?

• 1:05:16Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:17Jay Shetty?

  And, and being okay with that. Like I am someone who enjoys. I talk about this, like, I love being a monk and I, there's so much in my life where I still think like a monk. But I love being an entrepreneur. I get so much out of growing something and building something and scaling it. I love being a podcast host and at the same time, I love being an author and I like, I love all aspects of me and I'm okay being them, even if they're contradictory.

• 1:05:39Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:39Jay Shetty?

  Because I don't want to limit myself anymore. I think I limited myself in the beginning.

• 1:05:44Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:45Jay Shetty?

  Based on what society kind of put out. And then I limited by being with the bad kids and what that meant. And I was like, I don't want to limit myself because of what people think anymore. Because that never made me happy.

• 1:05:56Haesue Jo?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Jay Shetty?

  And of course that has limits to it. Like, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do anything painful or hurtful and I'm not going that far. I'm just saying that, yeah, I want to allow myself to be every part of me that's authentic and real and true, even if it's contradictory or paradoxical to other people.

• 1:06:13Haesue Jo?

  Getting to a place in life where you can let go of all the shoulda, coulda, wouldas and like, even when you say, I'm doing things that might be contradictory. I'm glad you added to other people. Um, it, it, it sounds like something important to you has been and you're achieving this now is like being able to do stuff and move through your life. And just not really place a lot of value in what other people think of it, how people perceive it or accept it and whatever. And in that journey, like when people are like that and they exude this thing about them where they get the validation from themselves, a side effect often is that people begin to like you. People want to be around you because it's that thing that someone did for you. It's like, I want to be him, or at least I want to be around him.

• 1:06:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and that comes with its own pain points where it's like you don't want anyone to become like you because you know that it wasn't smart when you wanted to be like someone. And so you're like, please don't become like me because again, you go on that journey. But sometimes you have to go on that journey of wanting to be like someone to figure out who you are. And it also becomes hard because you also realize that people like a facet of you or a part of you that they experience. And yeah, it's hard not to want to be liked. And it's, and I would, I enjoy being liked. I don't think, I don't, I'd be lying if I was like, oh, I don't want to be liked. That's not true. I like being liked. It's a wonderful feeling to be liked. You just don't want to, you've now stopped yourself becoming moldable and malleable to be liked. I think that's what it is. It's like you're not willing

• 1:07:42Jay Shetty?

  to break yourself in order to be liked is what has changed.

• 1:07:47Haesue Jo?

  Yeah. And how much better does it feel to be liked for just being who you are and for accepting who you are? That's much better. And the satisfaction, I think, is much greater than being liked for try so hard to be what you think that they will like.

• 1:08:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Yeah. I remember like the peer pressure of drinking alcohol and when I quit drinking alcohol because I started spending too much time with monks and they weren't really into drinking alcohol. And so that was like a big moment of starting to do something. So I was, I was someone who was always the life of the party by that age and like fun to be around and would, I love playing drinking games and I was a competitive drinker. And I've always been a competitive person. So that I would apply to any area of my life. And then I went from like that to after one summer holidays, coming back. And being like, hey, I don't drink anymore. And all my friends were like, what is wrong with you? Like, that was such a big identity shift for people.

• 1:08:43Jay Shetty?

  And when I got through that, I was like, oh, you can change your identity. Like, you can, you can change and people come with you. And those same people who thought I was cool for drinking were still my friends. And I was like, oh, like, I thought I was gonna lose all those people because I didn't drink anymore, because I wasn't going out to parties anymore and doing this and that. But I didn't, like, there was more to me than that.

• 1:09:07Haesue Jo?

  More to me than my preferences and my interests.

• 1:09:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and so I think credit to those friends who stuck around too. When I got into spirituality and wisdom based stuff, like, not everyone, there are certain friends who are like, that's too much. And there are certain friends who come with you on the journey too. And so I think that was another thing. I think there have been lots of pivots in my life where I've made tough choices about what identity I have and how I portray that to people and being okay with the risk that that may mean that I may become irrelevant to some people. And I think that's what's now built that strength and confidence because it's just been so long of having done that.

• 1:09:42Haesue Jo?

  Yeah, a long journey to kind of integrate, reconcile so much of your childhood and what's important to you now. How did you get through all of this? I mean, I know you're sitting in front of me right now, but it's like, I guess like a final thing I'd like to kind of reflect on with you is just like, what do you think the small child Jay had to get through all of this? Like, we talked about some stuff that maybe we think it is now, but.

• 1:10:08Jay Shetty?

  The only thing that ever comes down to it is like this, and it's a beautiful feeling is like, I know my mom loves me. And it's almost like that's like the, I know that if, if anything was to fall apart, my mom would turn up, like, and obviously she's still alive. And obviously, when she, she won't be here anymore one day, it's like, you know, I guess I'll still feel it internally. I don't, obviously, I haven't lived with my mom for years, so I've still felt that. But I think it's always been that confidence of like.

• 1:10:37Jay Shetty?

  My mom loves me and that's, that's kind of the only thing I can go to. I'm like, when you've been, and that's not to say that my mom and you know, me are perfect, but I feel like when you've received like that kind of pure love from someone, it's hard to think you need anything else.

• 1:10:52Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:52Jay Shetty?

  So that's the only answer I can actually come up with is that's all I ever had was, I knew that, so even when I took risks, or even when I have taken risks and whether they failed or they went right, my mom was always there to catch me.

• 1:11:04Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:05Jay Shetty?

  And so when I was doing badly at school, it's like, as in in terms of getting involved in the wrong circles, my mom was upset with me, but she still caught me with love. And so my parents would discipline me, but they still caught me with love. And I think that balance was really interesting where it's like, I mean, there was, there was months where I was suspended from school and my mom had to go pick up homework and then bring it back and I'd do it from home and like, there were so many reasons my parents could have been so upset with me and they were, they didn't just drop me in that sense, like they weren't just like, you're a failure and you messed up and you're, you know, it was, and, and they were strict and they were disciplining and they were, you know, they were tough on me when I was growing up, but I think they also had, had love behind that for me.

• 1:11:47Jay Shetty?

  There was a good balance between discipline, making you know you made a mistake.

• 1:11:51Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:52Jay Shetty?

  Making sure that you are remorseful and regretful and that you've trying to get better. But that there was a forgiveness and an acceptance that you made a mistake and you can change. So even when I came back from the monastery or they've, they've just, they just caught me every time.

• 1:12:07Haesue Jo?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:07Jay Shetty?

  And so I think that gives you a sense of security that you'll always be loved no matter what.

• 1:12:12Haesue Jo?

  Love is very powerful and, and it's clear that you radiate love for yourself and, and love for existence, wherever we have all that. So I do sense that love will carry you through so much in your entire life. So I'm, I'm really glad that you had that because not all people do.

• 1:12:29Jay Shetty?

  That's what it is, right? That's, that's what I find so hard is that a lot of this stuff becomes easier when you've had kind of like a, a very loving relationship with a parent. And then my monk teachers who also love me in the same way. And so it's having those people, I think having pillars of, of love in your life. Phew, it's like, you know, and that's what I'm trying to be for anyone I meet. Like I, I try and be there with everyone I meet. I, I, I wanna have, I wanna be a vessel of so much love that. I could help everyone feel that way. They don't have to be my child or they don't have to be my best friend in the world to feel that. I'd want everyone who comes into my world to feel that way if I could. And so I kind of walk around wanting to have that energy always.

• 1:13:13Jay Shetty?

  And that's hard because it comes with a lot of challenges of your own. And yeah, thank you so much for this, uh, this conversation. This is beautiful and it's, um, you know, when you're doing this, I consider myself someone who's done a lot of this reflection. I'm speaking to everyone who's back at home now, whether you're walking a dog or whether you're cooking or, you know, whatever you're up to right now as you're listening and watching this. I feel like I've done so much self-reflection that if I'm sitting down like this, the question can be like, what do you gain or what do you learn? I find conversations like this useful regardless of whether I discover something new. Because I think we've placed such an emphasis on what's new, what's new, what's new. And to me, it's not always what's new.

• 1:13:56Jay Shetty?

  To me, it's like, well, what kind of sat deeper? Like what, what kind of like went deeper for me? What was an idea that I shared with you that even if it wasn't a new dot that was connected for me, it's like, but that dot was strengthened. And I think of strength and depth more important than new. Again, like I feel like so many ideas I have today got strengthened. So many ideas that I already have today gained more depth by talking to you and the questions you asked. I also felt that I was able to be vulnerable and open up with you and, and on my platform. And I was trying all the time to not really filter what I was saying. And I think that's a habit that I find very therapeutic to water, which is why we're doing this.

• 1:14:40Jay Shetty?

  And I was definitely, I brought up some old memories that I hadn't visited for a while. And even though they didn't, those memories may not be ones that I have huge emotion attached to, but they were useful in. Pinpointing some of the beginnings of some ideas and beginning of some good and bad habits. And I think I find that very interesting. So looking back and going, where did this start? Where did this start? And sometimes it's just happy. Like, I'm like, oh, right. I realized that I started helping people at that age, or I decided to eat too, I started eating too fast at that age. And that stayed with me. And, and I enjoy finding that connection. So I find conversation, like, I'm walking away feeling very happy,

• 1:15:22Jay Shetty?

  reassured, and, you know, a sense of definitely love, like, ending with that was really beautiful. Like, to just think about my mom in that way. And, and when you ask, like, what have you, what, what got you through? And that's the only thing that I could think of. It's also nice when you realize what got you through is something that someone gave you, and then you live in gratitude because of that. So, yeah, I think lots of wonderful reminders, lots of wonderful reassurances, very therapeutic. I feel very heart open, very healed, which is always, you know, it's beautiful. And so I think when you're sitting with your therapist, if you already go to therapy, new is good, but, but look for strength and depth as well in ideas that you are trying to gain clarity over. If you don't already go to therapy, I hope this helps show you that it was just a genuine conversation. It wasn't, I wasn't

• 1:16:07Jay Shetty?

  forced to go anywhere I don't want to. It's very self reflective for me to see whether I found support in it or help in it, or, you know. And I also loved how you explained why you were asking certain questions. I found that very useful. And so I encourage you, if you have a therapist right now who doesn't do that, they may not know that you like that. And if you're like me, and you like that, feel free to ask your therapist that as well. And say, hey, by the way, like, when you asked me a question, could you explain to me why you're asking it? And like, where it sits? And sometimes they may say no, because that may defeat the purpose of the question. And sometimes they may say yes, and they'll explain it. And so I, I think it's important that you see as that relationship too, where you're able to, you know, ask for those explanations. And I wouldn't have asked for them. But now that you've done it, I'm like, oh, they, they really helped me. Like, those

• 1:16:51Jay Shetty?

  were great explanations. So. Any last words for anyone who's been listening or watching?

• 1:16:56Haesue Jo?

  I didn't have any until that last comment. Like, I would also encourage anybody to bring up their questions, challenge their therapist. A lot of people are unwilling to do that because they don't want to cross the therapist. They want the therapist to like them. They don't want to do something that they think will rupture their relationship. But this is one of the safest places to practice bringing up uncomfortable questions. This is something we all struggle with, especially in our significant relationships with our family. But it's like, that's what the therapist is there to help you practice and get through, is asking hard questions, being challenged as another person.

• 1:17:39Haesue Jo?

  You know, if your therapist says or does something that you don't like, bring it up. Otherwise, it's gonna be inside of you and more than likely, your therapist is gonna be able to feel that something is weird. And if you don't bring it up, they're probably gonna ask you about it. So that's a great opportunity to then bring it up.

• 1:17:56Jay Shetty?

  And I think there were parts where, it's not that I disagreed, but that I was like, "Oh, I'm not sure about that. I actually feel this." And I felt very comfortable to do that. I didn't feel like judged by you or that you were upset that I did that. You would make an observation. I'd be like, "Well, no, it was more like this." And I think it doesn't have to become a, yeah, it doesn't have to become an agreeing, disagreeing thing. It's just a flowing, evolving thing. And then actually, something new, I think for me, was to admit to someone that I do feel bad sometimes about not feeling bad about something. Like, that was big for me. Because, yeah, it's hard when you're wired a certain way and you don't know why, and it's beneficial. And I think being able to get that off my chest is actually quite nice.

• 1:18:41Jay Shetty?

  And to all of you as well who've been listening and watching, where it's like, yeah, some things do come naturally to me and easily to me, and I can't help that. I didn't pay for that, I didn't ask for that, I didn't get that subscription when I came into life, right? It wasn't, to some people, it would be like, "Well, you didn't even achieve that or earn that." But I'm hoping that that's what helps me help other people is that there are certain things that, not that I haven't had to figure out, but that have come in a helpful healed way. So yeah, thank you, Hey Su.

• 1:19:09Haesue Jo?

  Thank you.

• 1:19:09Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. Everyone who's been listening and watching at home, please do share the things that stood out to you. Please do pass on if this episode helped you. I really hope it will encourage yourself, people in your family, friends to have these conversations, even if it is with your friend, and then encourage them to go to therapy as well and hopefully show you, or hopefully gives an example of me going to therapy in this session and making it easier and accessible for people to think and understand how normal and how okay all of these things are. And of course, I want to give a big thank you to our partner, BetterHelp, who's encouraging these conversations and giving affordable access to therapy online from the comfort of your home. So thank you very much again. Really appreciate you all.

• 1:19:53Jay Shetty?

  This episode was sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy. Big thanks again to Hey Su Zhou, Head of Clinical Operations at BetterHelp. So just so you know, this was a therapy session that you got to get a look inside of, but Hey Su Zhou is not my therapist. We do not have a therapist-client relationship, but I wanted to show you what a therapy session could look like. Also, just because you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, beware of self-diagnosis. You'll want to find a qualified professional to assess and explore diagnoses, if that's important to you.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:20:54Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:21:01Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17 and under 17 without parent.