The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Mannix to discuss the Celtics trading away Jrue Holiday and Kristaps Porzingis early in the offseason (2:36). Then, they talk about the Atlanta Hawks’ future, Achilles injuries, and the Kevin Durant trade (29:51). Finally, they discuss Sam Presti, Jake Paul vs. Julio César Chávez Jr., and more (01:03:02). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Chris Mannix Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FTIC. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm.

• 0:43Bill Simmons?

  We are also presented by The Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find a new episode of the rewatchables. Die Hard with a Vengeance, as part of New York City Month. It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. It was a lot of fun. Lot of time talking about this movie trope, especially with John McClane, where somebody saves a lot of people twice and yet nobody believes in them and they're still disparaged by their bosses and they don't get like a movie made about their life. They don't get to be on a TV show, none of that stuff. It's just, it's like it never happened. John McClane, probably the best example of that. Anyway, we dove into that and a lot of subplots with the movie as well.

• 1:26Bill Simmons?

  We got one more New York City movie coming next Monday and you can watch all those on Spotify as a video podcast. You can watch on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel, however you want them. On this podcast, Chris Mannix and I are going to break down the funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading into the NBA draft on Wednesday night. After the NBA draft, after round one, I am going to be there. With J. Kyle Mann and Joe House and we're going to be reacting and Joe House, he has got the sixth pick in the draft. I don't know if we're getting drunk house, but we're definitely getting at least buzzed house. We'll see what happens. But we'll be ready to go on a right after the draft. Can't wait. One of my favorite days

• 2:08Bill Simmons?

  of the year. I don't know why they moved it from Thursday to Wednesday, but it's fine. We adjust. Now we got round two on Thursdays. It'll be fun. Anyway, Chris Mannix next. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in our friends from Pearl Jam and then we're off. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years and when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 3:16Bill Simmons?

  All right. It's been a while. Chris Mannix is here. We're taping this a little after 4:30 Pacific time in the afternoon. Was kind of waiting for stuff to happen today. We had the Drew Holiday trade last night and then Chris Taps Porzingis sent to Atlanta today. Chris Mannix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here. They lopped off miraculously $28 million in two trades. They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost 200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits. There still might be another trade because I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Hauser, something. They want to bring back Luke Cornet. They want to potentially

• 3:59Bill Simmons?

  bring back Al Horford. So there's some other stuff happening, but did you think it was going to be this simple? For the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades and somehow Simons $5 million less than Drew Holiday and then Niang is 22 million less than Porzingis. This was a borderline miracle.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  I thought they made some great deals and I thought they found the exact right partners to deal with. Like you might think like, hey, what is Portland need Drew Holiday for? Like they're not good, but Portland is trying to build this defensive identity and Portland clearly had no interest in giving Anthony Simons any kind of money after this season. They did that once, they weren't going to do it again. So really what the Blazers are doing with Holiday is taking the two years left on his deal, getting him on a basically a three-year deal for a guy like that. They can live with that. And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 500 threes next year and walk away

• 5:08Speaker 01

  from him. Maybe he shows them something, maybe he wants to be there, maybe it clicks, but they can just walk away from that. Atlanta, they're another perfect partner. Like they were looking to do, they didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing. They didn't, I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks. You know, Porzingis at his best, looks like a really good fit, playing opposite Trey Young and like contract year Chris S. Porzingis is going to ball out. Like the last time we saw contract year-ish Porzingis was in Washington and he put up huge numbers there. I think you're going to get the very best of Chris S. Porzingis. So I, look, the circumstances suck. The Celtics

• 5:52Speaker 01

  are not going to be good next year. You know, probably be lucky to fight for, I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference, anything is possible, but they're probably a play-in type of team. But I thought they did really well, given the circumstances, because they found the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had.

• 6:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag. I have multiple zags for everything you just said.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:16Bill Simmons?

  First of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern Conference. Is it, am I just, is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in? I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man.

• 6:30Bill Simmons?

  Holiday in the playoffs and in the Knicks series, I thought looked pretty rough. That was a team that I think four years ago, I was talking to my dad about this yesterday because my dad was visiting. We were like, four years ago, Holiday against Brunson, Holiday guarding Towns. You could have thrown Holiday on basically any Nick and he would have been hugely impactful. And he just wasn't in the Knicks series. I was a little nervous about him going, going forward. You flip him into Simons, who fills this scoring void that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year and he wasn't not a piece of that, you know? So I just, I'm not willing to go play in yet with them. I don't

• 7:15Bill Simmons?

  think they're wired that way. You have a new owner. I don't think he's gonna be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47. Like, you don't think Jalen Brown is gonna be going, hey, look at, look at the East. Indiana is now with this Halliburton situation. Knicks, new coach, who knows? Like, you go on through and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now. I can carry us. I don't know. I'm not, I'm, I think all bets are off with the 2025-26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  So what, let's dig into that a little bit. Like, I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through. Like, you might be right. Like, Jalen Brown is probably a lock for an all NBA team, assuming he meets the criteria next year. I think he's gonna be great. Simons is gonna score. Like, they've got, Derrick White's gonna be Derrick White. They've got pieces there. But they're not a championship team. Like, we can both get on board. Like, so I think what the Celtics probably look at and are saying, like, all right, we can, you know, bring the band back,

• 8:17Speaker 01

  pay the luxury tax penalties, maybe, maybe slide under the second apron, who knows? Whatever they may do. And are we gonna be happy with like this second round playoff exit? Like, is that a victory for them? Like, to me, this is all setting up an aggressive summer and summer of the 2026, when they can lose these repeater tax penalties, they can be under the second apron, maybe even under the first apron if they make a few deals. I think they're setting themselves up for that 26-27 season.

• 8:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, you can't hit that, you can't hit that point hard enough, though, because it's not just the money. It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater. Like, it actually really does hurt your roster for multiple years.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Kills it.

• 8:59Bill Simmons?

  You have to get under it. So they did.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  They did. I applaud them for that. Like, I don't, I don't care about a second, like, making the playoffs as a four seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round. I don't care about that. I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either. Like, this, this, to me, all these deals scream, like, let's just get through next year. Let's take the gap year, and then let's have flexibility. Like, we can go into 26, 27 with still arguably one of the top five two-man duos in the NBA, in Tatum and Brown. Like, that can be the core. Derrick White is still under contract. He can be part of the core. Like, they, they're giving themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026. And all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know, whatever next year is gonna look like.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him, to him to be the first guy, or one of the first guys you move off, because he loves it in Boston. He loves his role in Boston. He loves playing there, everything about being a Celtic. Like, could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number? Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there. Maybe you could have convinced him. Hell, maybe you can still convince him to do that if you have some room to operate.

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  Thank you. How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta for nine months and coming back?

• 10:14Speaker 01

  He might, or he can sign with the Wizards again for the gargantuan amount of cap space.

• 10:18Bill Simmons?

  For a hundred million dollars a year.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Exactly. So that was kind of interesting to me that they, that they moved off him as quickly as they did. But everything else, like, I get it. Like, this, they'll be a feisty, fun team next year. I think Simon's gonna have some great moments at team. Like, he's, he's gonna put up, like, 40-point games at some point with them. But they're not gonna be good.

• 10:39Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait to talk about Simons. But there's, so you said something interesting there. You said, "This allows them to be really aggressive in the summer of 2026." I don't disagree.

• 10:51Bill Simmons?

  What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026? Because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang, who's, I think he's expiring after this year, right? And then Simons, same thing. You put those together, I'm at 35 million with those two guys, right? I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now, right? What if the Celtics are better than they thought? What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead and they feel like he can come back and like, I just think they wanted malleability with the roster. And with Drew, which, you know, I, if you do the on paper thing with the Drew Simons trade, you'd be like, whoa, Boston got a younger player and an expiring,

• 11:35Bill Simmons?

  whose arrows still may be pointing up a tiny bit, Drew's arrow pointing down. That's not why Portland did the deal. I mean, Drew is like, you saw it. And you were, you were covering the Celtics a little bit last year, like the, Drew is like one of the most beloved behind the scenes teammates in Milwaukee, in, in, in Boston, like just, he was in Boston for two years and I think he goes down. Him and Horford, I think are going to go down as Hall of Fame, just everybody in the organization raving about people as people. If you're Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in like an adult, an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team.

• 12:17Bill Simmons?

  And you have to factor that in with the trade, even if he was slipping a little bit last year. The stuff he brings, like, think about Horford, just the last few years of his career where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40, still doing it, like Holiday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years. But it's the off the court stuff that I think, you know, they, that's just, you need that shit. Nobody's signing to go play in Portland. So anyway, I really liked that trade for both teams. You mentioned the Simons piece, like, and obviously the West Coast League pass. I've watched, I share Portland, I have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock. Simons will just go nuts.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  You have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock?

• 12:56Bill Simmons?

  Me and Russillo, we have most of it. We cornered the market.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I respected, I respected your Neesmith Island stock. I don't know.

• 13:02Bill Simmons?

  We have that. We bought, we just invested in Cam Whitmore, Alan.

• 13:07Bill Simmons?

  But Simons will just get super hot. And you look at this, this is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are going to be that bad. You, Pritchard and Simons out there, those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league. You have Jalen, who's still a top 20 guy. You might have rebounding, you're gonna have a good coach, you have this philosophy of just gunning up threes. They're gonna be way worse defensively. Porzingis played half the year last year and then was a, you know, a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy. I don't know, like, I don't know how much worse. The Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster, but if you're talking about the rest of it, like, they might be all right. They might be an overachiever. I don't know. I'm prepared for anything.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I'm prepared for a top five team potentially, if everybody stays healthy and everything goes right for them. But again, that doesn't, it doesn't get you anywhere. Like, what I like to

• 13:58Bill Simmons?

  The thing is, can they be fun, though? I think is what matters. Because if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it, you can't, you have the Celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row. You can't just like, yeah, we don't care about this year. Like, I still feel like they care a little bit about this year. Right?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:18Bill Simmons?

  Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  I think we're looking at, we're kind of, we kind of, you and I care about two different things. One, well, you care more than I do about them being fun next year. Like, I don't care.

• 14:29Bill Simmons?

  Fun and malleable are the two words I would use. I want them to have a malleable roster and actually not be a disaster.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Malleable is fine. I mean, they're not, with Jalen Brown and the talent they have, they're never gonna be a disaster. And the conference that they're in that gets weaker by literally the day with the Halliburton injury, like, it's gonna be impossible for them not to compete. Although, you know, God knows what the Wizards look like. They might be, actually be better next year.

• 14:52Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  I just, I just don't, I don't care. Like, I, I think what, I know what Brad's doing is saying like, look, Tatum, put whatever timeline you want on him, but I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all. Like, I don't see the point to it. Like, there's no way. People saying like eight, nine months, like, in what world? Like, why, why would you drop him back into the lineup post All-Star break when you might be in a playoff race? That's just a recipe for disaster. That makes no sense. Like, they, they have their pick in 2026. Like, that has to be factored in.

• 15:21Bill Simmons?

  Chris, don't ruin this for me.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, man. Like, they've got their pick in 2026. Let them, I mean, Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joint, maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they're really, if they go the other way and are really bad. And all of a sudden in the summer of 2026, you got Tatum coming back, you've got Brown still there, you've got White still there, you've got the genius of Brad Stevens and I, we, I think he's, he's really good at this job. He was a really good coach and he's also a really good general manager. You got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026? I, I, I'm fine with that. I, I don't care if they win 30 games next year. I really don't. I, I, I think that's certainly-

• 16:01Bill Simmons?

  All right, let's do this exercise then, Chris Mannix. Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derrick White, Peyton Pritchard, Anthony Simons, Niang. I'm gonna throw in Horford and Cornet. Little, little Kada-

• 16:16Speaker 01

  You think, hold on, hold on. You, you think Horford's back?

• 16:19Bill Simmons?

  I do. I think he finishes his career in Boston. I think it's hit that point with him. Why, are you just got to go?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I think, I think the market could be really interesting for Horford. If he, look, maybe he wants to stay. I don't know.

• 16:29Bill Simmons?

  He's made 300 million dollars.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  I'm with you, but when I, you know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have offseason conversations with, with GMs, like, a lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there. Like, the Knicks get bounced out. Well, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York. San Antonio, sitting down there with Wemba Yama. Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Horford in your rotation as well? This is probably like a third of the league, given what Al still has left and what Al's salary demands are gonna be, that theoretically would be interested-

• 16:57Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying like the mid-level, like the 7 million or even higher?

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Higher, maybe. 10, 12? I don't know. Like, what'd he make? 10 last year? Two years, 20 was his last contract? I could see him in play, like-

• 17:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I, I am deep, deep down, you're triggering me now, because I'm, deep down, I am a little worried about this, because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers. That's like-

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Another one, yeah.

• 17:18Bill Simmons?

  -an obvious, obvious Al Horford fit, where they could just kind of grab him. I mean, there's some other ones, but I don't know. He won a title in Boston. He's beloved in Boston. And it's like, you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he want a ring, right? And if you're talking about difference between they could pay him two and a half million versus seven, whatever it is, like, you know, uproot, I don't know, we'll see. But um, I don't think the team's going to be, I don't know, like, let's go through. I'm going to read you everybody in the East and you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year. Let's say there are no more trades and they keep Hauser. So we would say Cleveland, yes.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:59Bill Simmons?

  We would say the Knicks, yes.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:03Bill Simmons?

  And Orlando, yes.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Love the Orlando trade, yeah.

• 18:07Bill Simmons?

  Those three, I think we can both agree.

• 18:11Bill Simmons?

  Have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  I would agree, yeah.

• 18:18Bill Simmons?

  Detroit.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  I think I would agree. All right. So there's four.

• 18:26Bill Simmons?

  Then you, you, all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Halliburton, Giannis with no teammates. Miami, I don't even know what they're trying to do. The Hawks might be the biggest threat for the five seed out of anybody we're listing. Toronto, give me a break. Philadelphia, I have no idea how many Embiid games I'm getting. Um, I feel like the five seed is, is wide open in the East, which is more a reflection of how, how gutted the East is.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I look at Philly and we'll see what happens on draft night. I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia. Um, if Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Um, Atlanta, if Porzingis can give you-

• 19:10Bill Simmons?

  Just give me an if Embiid's healthy?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, I'm giving-

• 19:13Bill Simmons?

  What are you doing?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I'm giving, I'm giving, I'm giving them better for the doubt here on this one. If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston. Right. Atlanta, if Porzingis gives you 65 plus games, they're better than Boston. So we're kind of in that same range there where I could see them anywhere from like eight to five.

• 19:31Bill Simmons?

  So they're getting Porzingis and Jalen Johnson back.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I love Jalen Johnson. I want all the stock on Jalen Johnson.

• 19:39Bill Simmons?

  If you and I were the Atlanta conciliaries. I would be like, fucking go for it, man. You, you still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th. Like, go for it. Go get Norman Powell from the Clippers. Like, let's go. Like, go get, go get a real player who can play in a playoff series. You got Jalen Johnson coming back, so it's almost like you're signing a free agent. Reese Shays a year older. You have Porzingis basically replacing Capella, but you also have a Kangu. I like their team. I liked their team last year. I, I felt like if Jalen Johnson did get hurt last year, I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  I think Jalen Johnson, Jalen Johnson to me is one of, amongst NBA people, he's not underrated, but like publicly, he's criminally underrated. Like every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding. And, you know, if he's healthy, he's going to be an all-star next year.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, Porzingis, Johnson, Trey, not a ton of defense with that group. But I, with that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play. And I think that's their mindset, too. Like, the Porzingis trade, to me, signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference. It's the right thing to do, given what's sitting up at the top.

• 20:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento. So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran. I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to Hauser in the 28th for the number 13th, but I don't think that's enough. But I love Sam Hauser, and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta. So maybe consider that one, Atlanta.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  The market is robust right now for Sam Hauser, from what I've heard. I mean, he's starting that four-year, 45 million, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's, he's, he's a 40-plus percent three-point shooter who's been on a championship team, who's got a very manageable contract. Like, there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that. And I don't know if Baylor Shireman is Sam Hauser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does, but I know he's a lot cheaper. And I think that's going to be the priority for the Celtics with that particular spot in the lineup.

• 21:47Bill Simmons?

  I feel like you might get aggregated on HoopSite now. Mannix, Hauser Trademarket, robust.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Doesn't even feel like a hot take though. It feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26 year old elite three point shooter, maybe can't guard that many guys, but can make a shot at 40% from three. That's.

• 22:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, and as Masilo always says, like the sneakiest, wait, haven't you watched tapes? Stop thinking you can challenge him and post up dudes because he's actually like a half decent defender and 101 on an island. He's actually okay. I think the Pistons make a lot of sense for him and I'm interested to see what they do because that's, you know, where we talk about the wide open East. If I'm the Pistons, I'm really looking at, hey, we might be one move. I would have, I would have kicked the tires hard on Durant. We talked about that the other day on this podcast. Like I just would have, I have Cade, who's one of the best 15 guys in the league. I have a young team. I have an identity. Like what can I improve that Tobias

• 22:49Bill Simmons?

  Harris spot and go up a level? Um, yeah, from a Celtics standpoint, the Jalen part will be really fun. Um, the, the Richard Simons together as a, like the Richard Simons, Derrick White? I don't know. I'm in on it. I can't believe they're able to pull off those two trades. I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible. Just, I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back because he's making 30. Like they needed, they basically needed the Nets to be involved somehow. And then the Nets were like, whoa, Terrence Mann and another pick? We already have four. All right, cool. And they did it. Like, what are they doing?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. What do you think the Nets are up to here? Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys. Like that's when, when, when I was at the draft lottery, talking to people in Brooklyn and people that talked to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets because the Brooklyn Nets believed that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there. Obviously, Giannis was at the very top of their list. No idea if Giannis, what's going to happen or how that's going to play out the next few weeks, but. All I know is that the Nets acquiring one-sixth of Thursday's draft is not so they can draft

• 24:08Speaker 01

  five guys like that's just not that's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here. I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn if they if they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to to use these picks for.

• 24:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, we think San Antonio is staying it too with Harper.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:25Bill Simmons?

  I think that's locked in. Philly, I'm prepared for literally anything. You could give me any scenario and I would sign up for it. So if you told me Daryl feels like I have my model says we should take Ace Bailey. We don't even need to take him at three. He's going to be there at seven. We'll trade back with Brooklyn or trade back to eight. He's still going to be there at eight and we'll pick up all these other picks and then I'll do weird Daryl stuff with them. You can talk me into that. You could talk me into anything with Charlotte because I don't think.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Can I throw something about Charlotte? So Charlotte, so this Ace Bailey thing is wild like Ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience, not working out for anybody. Like I think my my theory on this on Ace Bailey is that right or wrong, here here is team believe there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte. Like he's not working out for Philadelphia. There's got to be a reason for that. He's not, he's not going to Utah. I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte. I think that Ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's going to leap up, get that Charlotte pick and he wants to play there. That's my theory on Ace Bailey.

• 25:37Bill Simmons?

  You mean a team like the Brooklyn Nets?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe.

• 25:41Bill Simmons?

  So Charlotte moves back four spots. They pick up a bunch of extra assets.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue.

• 25:50Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 25:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because especially if Edgecombe goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants. Trying to decode all the what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want. And maybe they they're like, fuck it, then we'll move back.

• 26:09Bill Simmons?

  For Brooklyn, I feel like Ace Bailey is going to drop to eight and I wouldn't trade up to get him. Because I think, I think when you put the stink out like that, we saw it work with Sar last year. Like Sar did this to Atlanta. It's like, nope, not even going. If you take me buyer beware. This does work. When you have a pick that high and you have, usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with, right? And it's like, oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick? We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come work out with us, who refuses to take our calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to. That's our first pick. High fives, everybody. Like, nobody wants to do that.

• 26:54Bill Simmons?

  So this actually works. I think it's, it's smart. But on the other hand, it's possible that Ace Bailey is just a train wreck. The stuff of the representation is pretty alarming. Like there's, and there's a lot of stories that have been, I think, being passed around and people aren't really talking about them publicly. But there's just, it just seems like a train wreck.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  It, it, it's not like this is being, it's not like this is being orchestrated by like a Bill Duffy. Or somebody that's been around.

• 27:24Bill Simmons?

  Rich Paul, like, yeah, here, I'm doing the chessboard here.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  It, it doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff.

• 27:31Bill Simmons?

  You go to checkers? What board game would you do?

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Chutes and Ladders? I don't know, like, whatever. I mean, it just.

• 27:37Bill Simmons?

  They're playing Chutes and Ladders.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  It just feels very, very, very uneasy. The only thing I can think of, though, is that they, somebody's trying to get to four and they like the team that's trying to get to four that goes against him. I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's going to take him. Like, all the stuff that's going on. With Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker. Like, I don't know if he flames out, he doesn't have the mindset for it, or the complete skill set to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket. Like, that's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it, I can kind of see shades of it. And if he's sitting there at eight, I think Brooklyn's gonna take him. I also don't think he gets past Washington. I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that with a high upside at number six. So, I think if at four

• 28:22Speaker 01

  is when this, well, three, it's gonna get interesting, because I don't know what Philadelphia's gonna do either. But I think at four, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey.

• 28:30Bill Simmons?

  If Washington doesn't take him at six, I'm gonna be disappointed.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:35Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if it's the right pick for them, and it seems like the kind of guy they've, the type of, of, of kind of polarizing player they've had in the past, where it's usually like, oh, man, that didn't work out. Brooklyn makes the most sense. If, that's his endgame. But I think this is a great draft. I've really enjoyed it. I've enjoyed doing the research for it. I think it's really unpredictable. You have Cooper at the top. It's so funny, like, he goes and works out for Dallas, and, and then the stories are going, Cooper Flag, he knocked everyone's socks off. People were blown away. It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper Flag workouts. We get it. He blows everyone away. He's amazing.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills. Like, we get it. He's amazing. And then two Harper is locked in, but then we get to three, and it's like, I'm prepared for anything. Tradebacks, I did, there's three guys I wouldn't be surprised if they took. I wouldn't be surprised if, if Daryl took Ace. I know you wouldn't either. If he was just like, yeah, Ace has the highest upside. I think he'd be a superstar. Edge Cone, we think he's Dwyane Wade. He just needs to figure out how to finish a layup. Knipple, perfect for the team we have. We think Embiid's gonna play 70 games. He fits in. He does this, this, and this. It's a, it's an awesome draft. Let's take a, a quick break and I have some more, uh, some more trade stuff to throw you. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats.

• 30:01Bill Simmons?

  Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmigiana delivered. I love chicken parm. A day in the sun? No. A bottle of rum? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. So if you were the Atlanta Hawks,

• 30:37Bill Simmons?

  are you building this around Trey Young? You feel good about that?

• 30:41Speaker 01

  I don't feel good about it. Um, I don't think that Trey Young can be the number one guy on a championship team. Um, I do think Trey Young as the number one guy in a conference that stinks can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference championship team. I think they're in play next year. Um, so I, I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has going into this season because it's not a, look, they, they, if they want to blow this whole thing up, they can do it next summer. You know, Porzingis is coming off the books. Yeah. Young will have one less year left in his contract. You'll still have Jalen Johnson to build around long-term. Like this is kind of

• 31:25Speaker 01

  the perfect year to sort of go for it. See what you can get with that $25 million trade exception. See if there's some guy that fits, you know, either in the backcourt alongside Trey, four spot, I don't know, wherever they think is the right fit and go for it this year. Um, and if it doesn't work, screw it. Then next year, there'll be, there'll be a market for Trey Young next year. Somebody's gonna want to get him. Like, I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington. Maybe they take him on. Like, they, they absorb his contract into, into their books. Like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season. Like this, no matter what, they're not gonna win a title. Like, I think we both can agree on that with, with this group.

• 32:01Bill Simmons?

  But you can- After Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything. They're, they're by Indiana winning 15 playoff games.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  I know. Indiana plays with just a- I don't know. If you get guys around Trey Young that are tough like that, Neesmith, Siakam, Nemhard, I don't see those guys in Atlanta. I don't see them. Look at their depth chart. I don't see a ton of those guys. But I think in this landscape, I mean, you can do it. You can make a run with this group. But if you can, great. Maybe you see like, hey, we're just one piece away, and then we'll add that guy in the offseason. Or you go into next summer and you blow the whole damn thing up. You trade Trey Young and you rebuild around a really good player, an All-Star in Jalen Johnson. I think it's all upside for the Hawks.

• 32:41Bill Simmons?

  We see it the same way. I think this is the official Trey Young audition year. What do you got?

• 32:49Bill Simmons?

  Here, we put a bunch of guys with length who can protect you on defense. We have a little pick and pop threat now with Porzingis. We also have a real center who can protect the rim. I don't know what they're gonna do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming. And it's like, let's see. We've created the type of team. I think what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do with Halliburton, where they built a roster around a guy's specific skillset. In Trey's case, they can protect him on defense and they're surrounding him with shooters and length, which is kind of what you'd have to do. And Indiana, I'm still, you didn't go to game seven, did you?

• 33:35Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 33:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. I'm still reeling from just that whole thing. And then also, to come that close to winning a title, to have the first five minutes the way it went, and then to realize, much like Celtic fans last month, where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year's now gone too. It was just so much. I'm still digesting it. I can't even imagine what it was like to be there.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  I've, I think that Oklahoma City has emerged as a top three crowd in the NBA. I think Boston's better. I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City's right there. You make an argument for somebody else, fine, but I think Oklahoma City is right there. In that three spot. I've never experienced a crowd that amped up, just cut it, go completely silent, the way that it did. Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how he moved, how he responded. I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody do. I've never seen a, a reaction quite like that. When you had a crowd amped up to an 11, just going nuts.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  And then have that happen and everything just go completely silent. It was, it was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that. And then his reaction banging his hand on the floor. And then you watched the replay on the monitor and you could see the, the calf buckles. You know, right away exactly what it is. That was tough. That was real tough to watch in, in real time.

• 35:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night and I was thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live. Cause I, I was still like kind of gathering. I, I was just so incredible of a basketball situation or a life situation. It was hard to wrap your head around. I was thinking about, um, I think it was two, it was my first year I was writing for ESPN or the second year. So it was maybe 2002 playoffs when Dirk got hurt. And everybody was like, he's got to suck it. He was hurt in the playoffs. I think it was against Sacramento. And it was so long ago, I can't remember, but he was hurt and Cuban didn't want to bring him back in. He wanted him to play hurt and his whole thing was like Dirk's going to be our guy for a long time.

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  It's not worth it to play him in this playoff series. And I remember writing, I think I wrote in my piece, like, that's crazy. If you have a chance for the title, you have to go it. And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it. Like, you know, obviously he was hurt. Obviously they shot him up so he could play, right? And then you go out and you tell the, you tell the person. Hey, man, you know, be careful. You're injured. Just be careful how you do this. But what happens? You hit a couple of threes. The adrenaline's rising. You know, he's going in a timeout and you just kind of forget you're hurt. But he was hurt. And then he made it worse. And now they really screwed up their team. And I don't know.

• 36:30Bill Simmons?

  Just that Cuban Dirk decision. I was, I was thinking about that, about, do you play him? If you play him, are you more careful? Like, and Halliburton's like, I have no regrets. It was game seven, we had a chance to win the title. But I don't know. Something still doesn't sit right with it, with me.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  I agree. It's like that old, that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for,

• 36:56Speaker 01

  you know, for not saving him. It's like, we have, we have, we have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury like an Achilles tear. The Durant situation. I think Dame's injury was kind of some of that. Him coming back from, you know, deep vein thrombosis and being thrust right back into a high pressure, high octane situation. Like, we've got the evidence. It's out there. It's, you could just point to it and say, this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen, but, but does happen at a frequently alarming weight rate. And I don't know what you tell, like, like Rick Carlisle, you know, I was at all those games and all the pregame stuff. And Rick Carlisle, every single pregame was like, we're watching him. We're watching him. We're watching him.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  So obviously they're probably, and even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe like somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injury? He's like, no, I have not been told that. He knew that something was possible, you know, there. But I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA Finals, whether or not he made three of the first five shots that he took, three threes. I don't know how you tell a guy going in, like, go at 80%. Like, it's impossible to tell a guy.

• 38:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just be careful, be careful, be careful. You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six. He wasn't that good.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Unless you're gonna, you know, camp him out in the corner and have him be a decoy, then this, this was always a potential.

• 38:22Bill Simmons?

  Maybe that's what they should have done.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  I mean, they kind of did that. They kind of did that for, what was it? Game six, for a lot of game six.

• 38:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I think it was, he was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe they should have gone that route, but like you're never going to be able to tell a guy of that caliber like, hey, man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard. Don't break to the basket. We see an opening like it's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize that stuff.

• 38:50Bill Simmons?

  I'm still wrapping my head around it. I've never seen.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  But who do you blame? Do you like, like?

• 38:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it sounds like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice. He wants to play. It's no different than like, we both love boxing and we love UFC and people make decisions with their bodies and their heads. And we watch it over and over again. And you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played. Obviously he wanted to play. It was super risky. But I've never, I mean, to come that quote, when you think of like the two sliding doors of this guy was on pace to be the hero of that game.

• 39:25Bill Simmons?

  And then in at the seven, six minute mark, whenever it was, all of a sudden he's done for a year. Like I, I've never seen anything like that. And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened. I mean, that was one of the more traumatic. We had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had in the span of a month, and nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing. I was texting with Doc about it. And I was like, nobody had these, oh, these were old guys injuries. These are injuries like my uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles. Like these don't happen to people in their primes. And Doc, we were saying, I was like, when, when you were playing, I was saying this to Doc, like, you know, you just play pickup in the summer, right?

• 40:08Bill Simmons?

  And it's, you weren't doing these like 365 days a year, all this training and practicing Euro steps and footwork. And maybe it's too much. Like, maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing. Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete, 100 degree weather, and then our knees went. So in the old days, the knees went, and now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go. And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys who still were arrow pointing up for their careers had this injury that nobody had before recently.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Is, is there, so I've texted a few medical people, you know, team trainers, whatnot for theories, all theory at this point, but.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players? Like they're, they're not, they're not.

• 40:58Bill Simmons?

  The specialists.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you grow up, you know, a lot of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players, they were, you know, hockey players, if they grew up in the Northeast, like they were playing other sports. Nowadays, it's, it's straight basketball. Like Cooper Flag is, is actually an example. I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him.

• 41:18Bill Simmons?

  Did he blow you away?

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Him personally? No, no.

• 41:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, the, the greatest, like he was on the cover of the magazine, the greatest Cooper Flag supporter is Scal. Like he's out of his mind in support of this guy. He thinks he's like LeBron. Like this is, you know.

• 41:33Bill Simmons?

  He might have to settle down a tad, but.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  You do, you, you put, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like in, or day one of the season, Scal's gonna have Cooper Flag on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore. But he's like, to this point, like, he grew up, uh, you know, in first grade, second grade, he was a great football player. You know, this is why they consider a prodigy. Great at everything. Football, uh, played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after I think second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball. That's what a lot of these guys, Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, you know, got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills, just this. I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus on the game where you're not kind of, you know, doing other things that might protect your, your, your body from these types of,

• 42:18Speaker 01

  of injuries. Again, it's all theoretical, but this kind of came up with a couple of, of training people that, that I've talked to. But it's worth looking into more if you're the NBA. Like having, having Kobe tear his Achilles in the back end of his career is one thing. Having, you know, an alpha, an MVP candidate like Tatum, a star of the postseason, like Halliburton, like this is something that, that they need to look at.

• 42:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Kobe, who is playing those 48 minute games during that stretch, right? And he's at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it made sense. It doesn't, these, the equipment's too good, the training stuff's too good, the medicines, everything's too good for, to have this injury. I don't really fully understand it. And I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports. Right? Like it's not happening in tennis. You know, it's not, I think Tiger tore his Achilles in golf, but it's just, anyway, that was, that was quite a tangent we just did. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off.

• 43:23Bill Simmons?

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• 44:07Bill Simmons?

  coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead. But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. What players? So you're, you're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit, not knowing what's real and not real.

• 44:51Bill Simmons?

  And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade. Like I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix. I really did. And I would have bet on Dallas. I would have bet, I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for Drew home. I thought it was going to be two pieces. One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever, and they're trade exception. Boston keeps the other piece and Dallas gets Drew. Portland comes and then it's like, oh yeah, they've loved him the whole time. It's like, really? I didn't hear that once. Is there a player that you're hearing floated around? A name that has surprised you as we are now 24 hours away from the draft? Is there somebody you're like, whoa, that guy?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's a, well, New Orleans is very much open for business that Zion not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up. Like, could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans? I mean, that's a small name, but I think that's something interesting. Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here. Are they, do they just sit on that draft pick and take it? Do they try to package it? Is Paul George in play? You know, I've heard some of that over the last 24 hours or so that they could be looking to-

• 46:12Bill Simmons?

  To trade back with Paul George.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, to do something there.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, those, the Philly stuff is what I've been most looking at. I think the Charlotte thing is the next one. I think Charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down. And I think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and, and take, uh, take that Charlotte spot.

• 46:35Bill Simmons?

  I'm intrigued by the Clippers who don't seem like they have a lot going on, but also don't seem to be super happy with their roster. Just like, what, where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than, or this coming year than they were? And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year. Um, I, I'm just, they've been quiet, which makes me suspicious. And then the, the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami. Cause I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant. If you talk to some different, like NBA team people, they're like, we heard the Miami thing was like, close to being done and something happened. I don't know what to believe

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  anymore. And I don't know what Miami's up to. And, and, you know, usually they're star hunting right around now. And they've been quiet too. And I don't know.

• 47:30Bill Simmons?

  Are they gonna zag and go the other way? I don't know.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  The Miami part of it, from what I heard after the deal got done was, you know, Khalil Ware was off the table and really the only thing that was on the table was Wiggins, some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital, nothing at all substantial.

• 47:50Bill Simmons?

  Nothing, which means they didn't really want him.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  But Bill, I don't know who, besides Houston, who really wanted him this offseason? I think the Clippers, you mentioned them, I think they were interested. They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  San Antonio, San Antonio was clear.

• 48:09Bill Simmons?

  There was some, I don't know if the Harden tires were kicked.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  That, that wouldn't be, that would be bad.

• 48:22Bill Simmons?

  It, it didn't work, but I'll, I'll put it this way.

• 48:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Harden's game seven went over great.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  You think?

• 48:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the, on the Clippers. So, and but I also don't think there's a market for him. But if we were talking about like most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week, that isn't actually shocking, he would be on my list. I just don't know who would be trading for.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  I mean, there was no market for him last offseason and the Clippers gave him a deal that he, he never would have gotten anywhere else. Like that was, I never understood that deal at the time. I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long-term either. Had a, had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player? Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying to get off of? In two years, I think they, they have that mindset. Just the Durant stuff, like I, I, I've been riding Houston since last February because I knew from being around the Rockets, how much Ime liked him and how much Durant respected Ime from the Brooklyn days and USA Basketball days, and how well the fit worked.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Like I, I went down there in, in February, March to do something on, on Amen. And like even then, like Rafael Stone. You know, on and off the record was like, we're not doing anything like we're, we're trying to see what this team looks like in the playoffs and they got, they got their look, they got the look. Jalen Green's not the guy. Jalen Green is never going to be the guy. So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg, round hole type of fit in the age of Durant, but I believe that Kevin Durant is still capable of being like one of the best scorers in the NBA for 65 plus games in a season. And I think given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year.

• 50:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  That's exactly who they need.

• 50:09Bill Simmons?

  Especially in the playoffs themselves. A hundred percent. That's what they need.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  You replace, you replace Kevin Durant, healthy Kevin Durant with, you swap out Jalen Green. They beat Golden State in the first round. Like I, I don't know how, what the ceiling is after that, but they beat Golden State in the first round. I think, I think the Rockets who are going to get real organic growth from their young guys next year. Starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to, to, to break out. I, I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference. And if I was looking at the biggest, biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year, uh, without knowing exactly what Denver's going to look like, uh, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.

• 50:50Bill Simmons?

  We agree. And I also, what, what's so interesting about that trade, I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about it. It feels like they still have a trade left. They were able to keep enough assets to do another move. Like I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen and I hope they don't. But if they did trade Jalen, weirdly Houston is still the best home for him. They'd have to put the Van Vliet thing in it to make it work. But, and I think Tari Eason would have to be in it, but that with all the picks they have. There's a move now, a little reminiscent, we've seen this in years, like the 07 to 08 Celtics was the best example of like, you do this one move and then that opens the door for the second move makes more sense, right?

• 51:30Bill Simmons?

  Do the Ray Allen trade. Now KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul.

• 51:38Bill Simmons?

  I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston, even though I don't want Boston to trade Jalen. I don't think they're going to.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  I don't know that Houston has enough to get Boston's attention there. Like the Van Vliet contract and what else? Like you want to take on the Suns picks in 27, 29? Like you want, I mean, that, I don't know that how, Jalen's gotta be worth more than that.

• 52:01Bill Simmons?

  It could be all the, basically all the picks and Eason and Van Vliet's contract. You're right, it probably isn't enough, but it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the Yanis, Yanis area too, in January, February, if that goes bad.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  I thought San Antonio was the most, and I said this at the, you know, a couple of weeks ago. I thought San Antonio is the most interesting team for Jalen. If they decided to go that direction.

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  And still are.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Still are, but like I think the Spurs maybe just keeping their powder dry in case the Yanis thing just bursts and like they can make a play there. But if that's not on the table, they can very easily put together a package that makes a lot of sense for both sides. I, to bring it full circle to Boston though, like I like that it sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here. Like that, that I think was a thought, you know, as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward. But I like that they're not dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown. Like it's hard to get two guys that you know can win together on a championship level.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  And I like that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there and presumably going to keep him as part of a two or three person core that they're going to build around in the summer of 2026. I just think that's the right move for them to make. And look, teams were calling about Jalen, several of them calling to see the availability.

• 53:26Bill Simmons?

  It was a hot market for him in white, there's no question.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  No question, but the Celtics were pretty firm that, that, you know, yeah, next year may suck for them. You know, it may, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people, given that they have their pick. It may be bad, but 2026, we're back. Like, you know, y'all must have forgot with, with, with us in the, in the fall of 2026, when Tatum comes back from that injury. That's, that to me is what their, their mindset is.

• 53:55Bill Simmons?

  You know who's not tanking Joe Missoula, who's this absolute psycho?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Oh, isn't this fascinating?

• 54:00Bill Simmons?

  There's no way.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  I'm glad you brought that up.

• 54:02Bill Simmons?

  This would be an absolute psychology experiment, watching him intentionally lose games and play lineups. That would, uh, there's just no way. I don't see it. That's why I think that, I think it's more likely they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  But it may be inescapable that they're, they're not that good. That there may be a 500 type of team. I'm fascinated to see how Joe Missoula handles mediocrity. Like, does he like start plucking his eyebrows like after like a three game losing streak?

• 54:31Bill Simmons?

  No, they're gonna have to put him on like meds. I think he's gonna have to be sedated. Like when, like, like with, uh, with, when you have little kids and you, you put them on an airplane and you just have to make sure like that, yeah, will you take this Benadryl? I need you, I need to, I need to knock you out for a second. I don't think he'll be able to handle it.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  I mean, he takes losses so hard. We saw that during the last couple of seasons.

• 54:55Bill Simmons?

  He might have taken a leave of absence. Maybe he just leaves the team in January. It's like Joe's gonna go learn, learn a next level of Muay Thai in Thailand for the next four months and we'll bring him back in June.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Just walking around challenging guys to Muay Thai fights across Europe and Africa. Like, I could, I could see that. I could see that. It will be, it'll be interesting to see how he, he deals with it because this will be new.

• 55:17Bill Simmons?

  Can we say one thing on Jalen Brown?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like for 200 cents on the dollar. And especially after like what the Red Sox did, not to compare the same situation with Mookie, because that was different. They just didn't want to pay him and they're fucking assholes.

• 55:35Bill Simmons?

  I just, I want to see Brown and Tatum together. And I think Jalen's like really important in this city. Like, he really gives a shit about the right things. And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to. Like that, nobody expects them to win the title next year. The salaries are gonna be nuts, but they're gonna be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three year run. And I just don't see it. I was actually looking at the OKC. Trying to figure out when they get screwed because this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run. And then you think like, okay, see, but oh, they're so positioned and they are in a lot of ways, right? They're young, they have draft picks, they have flexibility. But then they really don't. When we get to the 27, 28 season, I was trying to map out if they give Chet and Jalen

• 56:17Bill Simmons?

  Williams to, you know, the contract extensions, which would be five for 247, right? And nobody takes less anymore. Like Chet's like, I want to help the team. I'll do five for 200. Like, he's going to take the 247. So that would kick in in the 26, 27 season and Shay's super max really kicks in for the 27, 28 season. All of a sudden, he'd be making 65.5 million a year. And Chet and J Dub would, uh, would be making 46 and 46. So just for those three guys, you're looking at $158 million for three guys. And the second apron for that year would be around

• 57:02Bill Simmons?

  230.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, cap will go up. It'll, yeah, those numbers.

• 57:05Bill Simmons?

  I was, I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the apron's tied to that. So they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys. And the point is, the NBA has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly, you make all the right trades, all the right draft picks, you just fucking nail every step. You're still fucked like three years later. And the Celtics are the latest example. We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around you. I want to talk about that in a second. But I just think when, I wish I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, oh, they're going to own the rest of the decade. It's like, I think we're talking three, four year windows for anybody because it's too hard after that.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success. I mean, Milwaukee, they didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holiday and cost themselves some picks. Then they missed.

• 58:06Bill Simmons?

  And they, and they traded Drew assets too.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, they they missed like on these picks, though, like that's a big part of it, too. Like the guys they drafted can't play. Denver, kind of the same thing, not as far as giving away draft capital. But when the veterans got too expensive for that team, and maybe they should have spent a little more money, especially on a guy like KCP. Their young players were not ready to step in and and play.

• 58:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then they did the Zeke Najee extension. They extended Porter to the point that he's untradeable, making 40 million a year.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Like, that was like a Walmart deal there. That was a

• 58:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  That was a just a deal for, that was a bad one. Oklahoma City, to me, though, is a little bit different, and you know this, but like, the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years, help them navigate the books. And I'm talking about the team options. Like, there are a lot of team options that you look at that those books, Bill. That those

• 58:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like Hardenstein could be gone in a year.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Hardenstein's got a team option next summer. Isaiah Joe, I think, has a team option.

• 59:06Bill Simmons?

  He does.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  The year after that. Lou Dort.

• 59:08Bill Simmons?

  Lou Dort does as well.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Another one there. Like, you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hardenstein to, you know, take a little bit less to stick around and be part of maybe something he likes being a part of. Dort, Dort, I think, might be different. I think there's going to be a big market for Dort next summer if he's a free agent. I think he's a great player, but you've got Kason Wallace looking to step in. And look, even next year, like I did a little I did a little reporting, Bill, around young Nikola Topich during the finals. Lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nikola Topich. Lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him. You know, Kenrich Williams talked to me for a while about him. Dagnall, big fan of Nikola Topich.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Like, it's not, it's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topich to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get Kason Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace Lou Dort down the line. If they can hit on one or or two of these next, what are they, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft? They can just hit on these guys. They got, they got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done. So I'm, I'm a little more optimistic.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Who's mundane. Yes, that's another guy that, you know, they're, they have guys, they have guys that, you know, they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that. They need guys between four and eight to, to be consistent. I think they've got more potential than any team of the last, in the last five, six years to have that.

• 1:00:42Bill Simmons?

  We 100% agree. If any team is going to pull it off.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Kind of the way I'm says on your show, I want all the real estate on top of China.

• 1:00:49Bill Simmons?

  I'm in too. I'm, I'll go on Redfin right after. Look it up.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  You get a condo.

• 1:00:54Bill Simmons?

  So I'm, I agree with everything you just said. I'm talking three years from now. Here's, here's the counter. And did you, I didn't, you didn't go to Indiana, right? For three and four?

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 1:01:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I didn't. Somehow I didn't see you.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  Dort and Caruso won game four and that was the game they needed to win this series. And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that. So it's like, oh yeah, Wallace will praise Lou Dort. It's like, Willie? Lou Dort was fucking awesome in that game four. And so was Caruso. And it's like, and you think about like the Celtics in 24, like Drew Holiday in the Indiana series, like some of the stuff he was doing, the Porzingis, the boost he was, you just lose that and the series can tilt in the wrong way. And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six. I really believe it. I think Indy would have finished the series. I think there was this moment in time in that second half where they

• 1:01:55Bill Simmons?

  had the series and they just couldn't close it. So we'll see if they can do it. They have to keep hitting on the top of types of like whoever like they had, they take like, they can keep replenishing that Dort Caruso spot, maybe. What did you think of?

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  The Cronkite thing today, that I got a lot of texts about that one today. Cronkite just, he's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for, we might have to trade Jokic if he doesn't want to sign an extension. It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it think, makes me think it was intentional. I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words, say things carefully. I don't think it was an accident. I really don't.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  I haven't, I've read the quote. I haven't watched the quote and I always want to watch it first just to make sure, to understand fully the context. But the right answer for any question about Nikola Jokic is we're building around him forever. We want a statue of him in front of the building. That's it.

• 1:02:59Bill Simmons?

  That's it. He's never playing anywhere else. He's our guy. Him saying it the way he's-

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  The word trade, the word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences, within three sentences of Nikola Jokic. Ever.

• 1:03:09Bill Simmons?

  The way he framed it was like, it made me think, and this, there's always been this stuff floating around. Who knows if it's true, but it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not. The way it was, there was something weird about the way he said it that made me think they're nervous that if anybody's just going to be like, I'll see you guys later. I'm going to go over here now. Like, who knows? Who knows with that dude? Um, I don't know. I thought, I just thought it was a notable moment. Sometimes in the NBA, there'll be these little press conference moments or something said in a locker room or just some sort of tidbit where you go, huh? That kind of came out of nowhere. What did that mean? So I'm just, I'm noting it.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Don't you think that, don't you think that like Jokic to me is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not going to play anymore? Like, I'm just going to go back to Serbia and- Racehorses and I've made enough money. I don't want to train like this anymore like that that to me, that's always been like something you should be people should be wary about with yoga. It's like everybody says, like, he's got the kind of game that could that's going to age really well. And it probably will. But I don't see him at like age 39, like pulling like an RV to Sabonis. Like, I don't see him. I just don't see him play until the wheels come off. I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play. But regardless.

• 1:04:38Bill Simmons?

  So I've heard I've heard this theory that he's really likely this was going around like a year ago. If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later. Thanks for everything. It's him. I don't believe it. That dude's too competitive. And you you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in and he's a maniac. I don't think you're gonna be like, all right, I'm just gonna play in a shitty league now. I think that guy wants to, you know, that what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had, especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team. Pretty, pretty crazy. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who

• 1:05:20Bill Simmons?

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• 1:06:03Bill Simmons?

  boxing in detail, but any other NBA storylines you're excited about or no?

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Uh, I think that's, yeah, that's, here's, let me only throw at you the, the NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now, because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there. Sam Presti in Oklahoma City. Like, we're gonna get two expansion teams, probably the next three years. I think the NBA is gonna step on the gas with the expansion now that the Lakers sold for $10 billion.

• 1:06:34Bill Simmons?

  You know who's road blocking them right now? James Dolan.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Bill Simmons?

  He's got, he's got a little cabal of anti-expansion owners that he's trying to just, just to, uh, cause he doesn't want it. He doesn't want to share the media rights.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but James Dolan doesn't want to share anything. And he doesn't, he votes no at every single Board of Governors meeting.

• 1:06:52Bill Simmons?

  Yes, he does.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Go back and look at some of these meetings, like, how many of them are 29 to 1? Like, he sends his consigliere in, because he doesn't really go to vote.

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  I think he has a couple of people this time, though.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  I don't want expansion?

• 1:07:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think this expansion thing's a little

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Not enough.

• 1:07:07Bill Simmons?

  Little more complicated than people are giving it credit for, including myself.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  It might be, but it's not, it's not enough. Like, well, how many do you need to expand? Is it 2/3 that?

• 1:07:14Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was 3/4, but it's somewhere in there.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  3/4, maybe. Either, either way, I don't think that Dolan has enough to block. I, as many as that maybe out there that quietly don't want it, I think there's a lot that very publicly do want it.

• 1:07:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, can you imagine? People are like, "Yeah, I'm in the Dolan block. Dolan's leading the way. I'm on his side with the..." Can you imagine, like, aligning with that?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Bill Simmons?

  I'm taking the expansion fee, anyway.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  But like, on the expansion side, like, let's just assume Vegas and Seattle, everybody believes that's how it's gonna play out. Like, if you're the new Sonics, what's Sam Presti worth to you?

• 1:07:48Bill Simmons?

  Piece of the team.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  If you're a piece of the team.

• 1:07:50Bill Simmons?

  Like, 2% of the team, 1%, whatever.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Same thing with the Vegas Gambler, whatever the hell they're gonna be called. Worth the exact same to me, I think. Like, Sam Presti-

• 1:07:59Bill Simmons?

  I think, but Seattle's better, though, because

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:08:02Bill Simmons?

  That's the, "We lost this guy to Oklahoma City, now we brought him back to be our architect."

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  He, he was 29 when he came here, he's 49 when he's coming back, and he's gonna build this team the way, you know, it's, it's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff. Um, I, I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma, but he's been there a very long time. And- He's not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he set them up and presumably a Rob Henigan who would replace him, who hasn't been seen much in the last 10 years, but is his lieutenant there. He's got it set up. So there's a ascension there. And look, I've been saying at the time, and I know you knew it too, like Sam, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like Sam was interested. Sam was interested in that job.

• 1:08:46Bill Simmons?

  But the funny thing was Boston really wasn't open. I mean, that was one of the things is like, we went from Danny to Brad. They had a Brad coaching situation and a big contract for him. They had Danny ready to, and it just, I don't think Presti, did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring?

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  No, but externally, nobody, I don't think externally, people knew it was going to be that clean an ascension. I think people on the outside thought there might be, it might be an open job. And I think when it was thought that way, there was some, I think there was.

• 1:09:17Bill Simmons?

  Background, Presti, Massachusetts, went to Emerson, like dream was to work for the Celtics and just never happened.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family, like still does all that. I'm just saying, like, he wouldn't have any reason to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma City. He helped win them a championship and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years. The chance to do something like build a team from scratch for a guy like Sam Presti, who has built two, you know, a title contender back in 2012 with the, with the peak of the Durant Harden Westbrook years and a title winner that may have won multiple championships by the time his quote free agency comes up. I just think that's something to watch. I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  someone that's on their radar. And I don't think there's any price probably too high for getting a guy like Sam Presti to run your team.

• 1:10:15Bill Simmons?

  Mannix, he's done it again. It's a great call. He's accomplished his job. He won the action movie. He saved everybody in the burning building. Now, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it. There's also like if you left like, I don't think Spain should be a couple of years from now. That's right around the time. Maybe you'd want to get away from this OKC thing, but he had an incredible run. If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedence would be like Pat Riley in Miami 30 years ago. And they brought him in. He got a little taste of the team and the whole thing. All right. Well, we'll see what happens in the draft. Let's do boxing really quick, though. Casual boxing fan Bill is here.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Love it. Big fight, Bill.

• 1:10:56Bill Simmons?

  Big fight, Bill, who didn't even know that you were announcing one of the Paul brothers this weekend in Anaheim. But who's he? It's Jake Paul. Who's he fighting this weekend?

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  He is fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., who a lifetime ago was the middleweight champion of the world, has fallen on some hard times as of late. Young Chavez Jr. Has had some documented drug and alcohol problems. He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago, but he's got a big name and he's got a decent following and there's a lot of Mexicans on the undercard. So this is going to be a interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Okay. What's our big fight of the summer? What are we looking forward to?

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Usyk Dubois, too, is the most interesting right now. Dubois knocked out by Usyk 2023, like almost it'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by Usyk. He's back in with him. But Dubois has changed a lot over the last two years. I mean, he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant. Like he gets with a new trainer and Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy and as much about, you know, motivation, kind of Mickey-esque as he is about tactics and he's helped him. Put together a run that includes Jarell Miller, Filip Perkovic, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout. Like, that was the crowning achievement and the title-winning win for Dubois.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Now, he gets another crack at Usyk, who just continues to be an all-time great, doesn't show any signs of slowing down. But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all. The fact that it's happening now after the AJ win, I think is really interesting. It's gonna be like 80,000 fans in Wembley Stadium for that fight. And I think it's, it's an interesting fight now that Dubois has been on this run.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait because nothing is more fun than throwing Usyk in a parlay with other sports, and he's just the most reliable leg every time. Just keep betting on him till he loses. I'm already, I'm already so in the positive on Usyk fights. Like, it's, everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm gonna keep throwing him in there.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  And also, Deontay Wilder's back, Bill, on Friday in Kansas. Places. He has, he has come back and he's looking to make one more run at 39 years old. Ready to go.

• 1:13:24Bill Simmons?

  Here's a good, here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner, Sergio Amora, wouldn't set you up with an alley-oop like this. Who has a chance to be Boxing's Kaitlyn Clark?

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:13:39Bill Simmons?

  The out-of-nowhere person that would get everybody excited about, the casual fans. Is there anybody? Because I've given up on Bacoli. I sold my stock at a loss.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  That's a good idea.

• 1:13:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Boxing's Kaitlyn Clark.

• 1:13:54Bill Simmons?

  Just that, the, the, the out-of-nowhere, somebody that, uh,

• 1:14:02Bill Simmons?

  could kind of train, even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  It's hard to, to. Like I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago. That's

• 1:14:15Bill Simmons?

  That stock is done.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  That stock's gone. That stock is sold. And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage. Like, nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore. Like, Oscar used that gold medal as a springboard, you know, even Wilder, even Wilder. Oh, wait, you want to get even more recent, won a bronze medal, bronze bomber, use that as a springboard. Like, men's US Olympians have not had a good run for decades now. So I don't know, you know, there's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks, you know, here's one, in the heavyweight division. Moses Atalma, I don't know if you've heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of like B-level guys and has knocked them all out. He has that, he's 20 years old

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  and has a little Mike Tyson vibe to him, a little bit of a, a little bit of a Mike Tyson. He's knocking guys out early, like, very early. He's not super big either. He's like 6'3", but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with. He's fighting in August against Dillian White. And Dillian White used to be a pretty good fighter in the UK, but has long since passed his prime. That is going to be another spectacular knockout for Moses Atalma. That's a guy I would watch. He's, I don't know about the Katelyn Clark potential because he's a Brit and, but like, does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity? He might, he might. And if he fights over in the US more, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis-type followings that made Lennox a star.

• 1:15:44Bill Simmons?

  That's a good one. Good name. All right, Mannix, good luck in Anaheim. I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finished this podcast, leading with Celtics trades, but.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  I would, I would just, you know, the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there.

• 1:16:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Might be, might be a collector's item. Not even before the draft, but at some point this offseason could be a collector's item.

• 1:16:06Bill Simmons?

  All right. Thanks, Mannix. Good to see you.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  You got it.

• 1:16:10Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Mannix. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal as always. And don't forget, I'm coming right back after round one of the NBA draft on Wednesday night. Be ready for that. Don't forget about Die Hard with a Vengeance, the rewatchables. It's up and I will see you in 24 hours.

• 1:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

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