The Pacers Survive (Again!), Game 7 Thoughts, the Lakers Sale and KD Rumors 9.0 With Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney to react to the Pacers pushing OKC to a Game 7 in the NBA Finals (2:01). Then, they preview Game 7 and discuss what the Thunder needs to do to win the championship before looking back at previous Game 7 Finals (23:31). Finally, they catch up on the Buss family selling the majority of their stake in the Lakers, the Kevin Durant trade rumors, and much more (56:22). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+ Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details. The Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm.

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  We are also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchable. It's actually on Tuesday night. We did Marathon Man because we're doing New York City Month. Marathon Man, awesome movie with Dustin Hoffman and Sir Laurence Olivier. That is up. You can watch that on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. Monday, we're doing Die Hard with a Vengeance, the third Die Hard movie in 1995. Bruce Willis, Sam Jackson. Also a New York movie. It is the 30th anniversary of that movie too, this summer. So that's gonna be a really fun one. It's gonna be me and Ben Lathan and Chris Ryan. And you can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify as well. You can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify. You can also watch us on YouTube where tonight,

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  we went live right after game six of the 2025 NBA Finals with me and Rob Mahoney and Zach Lowe. That was on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, but you can get it anywhere you get podcasts. And we're gonna run it right now after we take this break and we hear from our friends from Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car and more. Whether you need an in-person or a digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full-court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist.

• 2:11Bill Simmons?

  Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 2:42Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're live on YouTube. It's Bill Simmons Podcast. Zach Lowe is here. Rob Mahoney is there. It's the first time for the three of us together. It's a little, it's a little new, almost like OKC playing defense today, where it looked like they'd never played defense before. Zach, what was your big takeaway? Because I don't understand what OKC was doing in this game with the tournament, the trophy, everything, sitting two and a half hours away, and it was a no-show.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Uh, two big takeaways. Number one, the Pacers are awesome. I didn't see this coming. I thought OKC was going to clinch it today. It wouldn't have surprised me if OKC won rather easily. And Indiana's like, no, we don't go out like that. Cal strain, whatever, Tyrese Halliburton, perfect balance between kind of being an off-ball decoy and then taking the reins when it made sense and just TJ McConnell doing T. Got a McConnell, another McConnell, uh, and they're, they're just awesome. Second takeaway, OKC played like a team that knew what was at stake and was a little bit nervous. And I thought Shay forced it really, like forced it early, some bad turnovers, some bad shots. They just weren't, they were just skittish and not in a rhythm. And you know what? It is the biggest game

• 3:54Speaker 01

  that any of them have ever played, and it looked like the biggest game that any of them ever played. They're, they lost this game because their offense was miserable and Indiana won the turnover battle and they had no assists and no threes. Same formula for losing a lot of these games for them.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. If their offense was terrible, it's because the Pacers made it terrible. And if Oklahoma City didn't show up, it's because the Pacers frankly like rescinded their invitation in this game. Like, I think we talk a lot about the connectivity of the Pacers on offense, but I think this is just one of the most connected teams, period, that we've seen, certainly this season, even relative to the Thunder, which is really saying something. But even in recent memory, like other teams have had more talent that have been incredibly connected. The Pacers are really talented, they're really capable, they're really smart, and they just figure out how to dominate a game like this on defense of all things.

• 4:40Bill Simmons?

  End of the first half, Indy's up 22. OKC is 1 for 11 from three. They have three assists. They have zero steals.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:50Bill Simmons?

  And that's where I bring up the why didn't they show up thing because Zach, we were at game four and Dort and Caruso just put their imprint all over that game from the get go and especially in the second half and Dort was such a beast and neither of those guys were there at all in the game today. And when you take that out and Indy, Indy had some room to run. I guess the bigger question for me is where they rope adoped a little bit by this Halliburton injury situation. It almost seemed like they were surprised that he had that in them, which I, which I didn't really understand. They weren't, they weren't attacking him. Like the game we went to game four, Zach, where they were picking him up full court, really trying to like, you know, bully him around, take him out of the game. It was almost like they didn't understand how

• 5:32Bill Simmons?

  he was doing, what he was doing, which was kind of how I felt because by the time we got to this game, it seemed like he was going to be rolled out in a wheelchair and, uh, and was just going to limp around. It wasn't like that at all.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Weird game across the board, right? Like the stakes, the pressure, the championship on the line for you and not necessarily on the line. You have another chance, but it's there. It's sitting there. You know, they're, you know, they're bringing in the champagne and they're going to have the plastic wrap over the locker. And you also know the best player on their team is injured to some degree and is he going to play? Is he not going to play? How well is he going to play? Is he going to change the way that he plays? I thought they went at him a little bit, uh, when Indiana was on defense in the first half, had a couple of successful possessions. I, I would just do it every single time. Um, I, I, I thought they, they, you know, they poked around here and there with some interesting matchups and poked at different places, but I don't think they poked at him enough. But look, I mean, Indiana played awesome. This was an awesome

• 6:26Speaker 01

  defensive performance from a team that has gelled in to a really good defensive team. And look, Oklahoma City got its blowout win in game two. This is the first real Pacers blowout win. The first, their biggest lead of the series was 12. They announced that on the first half of the broadcast and the series is now like, uh, pretty even. I think the final margin going into game seven is Oklahoma City plus five over six games. Like it's a pretty, it's, they were up, they was plus 24 coming into tonight. They won by 19. So if my math is right, it's plus five. Like it, it's a pretty even series. And again, my takeaway, just as it was after game one is. Indiana is just awesome. Something about the way they play, like the on paper gap might be,

• 7:09Speaker 01

  oh, they're, you know, plus four net rating versus plus 13 net rating versus plus eight net rating. Whatever that gap is, their style of play shrinks it down to a minimal amount. They're just an awesome, awesome team.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  I think part of the reason for that, I was thinking about it during this game is who would I want to coach a game like this more than Rick Carlisle? And it's, it's the combination of when your star is injured, we've seen him coach incredible runs with other teams, with guys in and out of the lineup. It's operating at a perceived talent deficit. It's operating against the best defense we've seen in modern NBA history. I just think Rick Carlisle like modulates better than any other coach out there. And he understands all of the trade-offs in the game better than almost anyone else. We saw it like with Andrew Nemhard in this one, kind of scaling back his defensive pressure.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Huge on offense.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  And he had to be, like, he had to be that big for them to be great. And they were able to pull that off because like, I think Carlisle coaches everything on a sliding scale. Like, nothing is too precious to change. And at the same time, they're able to adjust things in very controlled ways without giving up who they are and giving up what the identity of the Pacers has been.

• 8:15Bill Simmons?

  With all that said, be honest, when OKC went up 8-2.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  10-2.

• 8:19Bill Simmons?

  And Indy called timeout. And it was like, oh, man, this is going to be sad. I really like this Indy team. And then all of a sudden Nemhard had eight straight. TJ McConnell came in and had, did he have a full McConnell, Zach?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  If like, if McConnell were a free agent coming off this series, like $30 million?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Like, you could see, or some team like Brooklyn would be like, you know what?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Forget Giannis, we're throwing the max at TJ McConnell. This is crazy what he's doing.

• 8:49Bill Simmons?

  So NBA University, which is a very good Twitter account, he tweeted this, and I have no idea if it was a joke or not. He asked if Brunson was used like Jalen Brunson and an offense revolved around him, the same way the Knicks do, you did the Jalen Brunson offense. Would it be a good offense? And I was like, I don't know if you're joking or not, but I'm going down the road and thinking about this.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  He, the TJ McConnell shot diet is unlike anything in the NBA. Nobody takes these shots where it's like you go under a screen because that's what you're supposed to do. And he just dribbles and meanders and he takes eight foot, like full on jump shots, like eight feet from the rim, two hands on the ball, two feet off the ground. Like with every burst of energy I can see, and he gets it and goes in like every time.

• 9:34Bill Simmons?

  Followaways, he has those. He has the three point shot that takes two seconds to unleash. What a breakout star, but I mean, we've, anyone who watches League Pass and watches basketball, we've all liked him.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 9:46Bill Simmons?

  There's, it's always a question of, it felt like he was another guy on this Pacers team who was available for like three years, but not totally. And nobody went and got him. I remember arguing two years ago that the Spurs should have gotten him for the first year of Wemby. And then it was like combo of, oh, Indy would never trade him. And then it's like San Antonio could do better than, like, nobody was happy with the trade idea.

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  Him and then Nemhard, Rob. There's no other player in the league like Nemhard at this point that I can think of.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Unbelievable. Yeah, like his ability to raise his game in exactly these moments. Obviously throughout the playoffs, we've seen him just be a totally different player every time he gets to the postseason. But they needed both of those guys to do a lot of ball handling, a lot of creation. Like TJ McConnell has to not just take those crazy improbable, like high vaulting shots, but he had just stir shit up constantly on offense so that Halliburton could be a decoy, so that Halliburton could be at some points like more of a catch and shoot player. And I think the only reason any of that works, because you have these other two ball handling guards just sitting there and you can scale up their minutes, you can scale up their responsibility. And I think Nemhard in particular, one thing he never gets enough credit for, he's such a great, low risk ball handler. Like he just does not make a lot of stupid mistakes.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  He does not make a lot of crazy audacious passes, although he did throw a beauty, no look and transition to Myles Turner in this game, which is about as flashy as Andrew Nemhard gets, and I salute it.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Those guys are absolutely essential in a game like this and they're going to be absolutely essential again in game seven, even with Tyrese Halliburton having a couple of days and a couple of icy hot patches and however many, you know, Advil he can take between now and then.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  I gotta do my thing right now. I gotta do the thing that I do every Pacers game, every Pacers podcast. How many minutes are we in now? We haven't said his name yet. We haven't said his name yet. Nine minutes in Pascal Siakam. Just doing everything for this team. 16, 13, three assists, defended J double a little bit, which we hadn't seen much in the series, defends anybody you need him to defend, got out in transition early in the game and kind of forced his way into the game and forced the Pacers into the league. This is what we do after every game. It's like Halliburton, McConnell, the best one game, it's Matherin, then it were 25 minutes. It's like, oh yeah, was he the best player on the Pacers again today? Maybe arguably, I don't know, but we just, we never lead with him and he's just always there humming in the background, doing stuff.

• 12:04Bill Simmons?

  And especially in the first quarter, there was a couple of moments in that first quarter that looked a little rocky for them. And he was like, I got this guys. It's funny. You mentioned Matherin. I'm not positive he played in the first half.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  He did. He, he came in, I think.

• 12:19Bill Simmons?

  Did he come in for like a split second? Cause in the fourth quarter, when he came back in, I checked the stats and he had played six minutes.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  I thought you meant spiritually, you weren't sure if he had played in the first half.

• 12:28Bill Simmons?

  No, no, he literally like played, I don't know, less than 10 minutes, but this was a guy who was the star of the game in game three, but this is like a classic example, Rob, of how fucking weird this Pacers team is. This Pacers team has 15 playoff wins. This will be the 20th game seven that we've ever had and only four road teams have ever won a game seven. And they now have a chance to be the fifth.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. If there was going to be a fifth, I would think it would probably look a lot like these Indiana Pacers and they would do similarly improbable shit and they would do things like, for example, dominate a game in which they shoot 41% from the field and they just kind of hummed along and they wrecked this thing on defense. They have every single thing that they need somehow. And I think one of, one of the joys for me in watching this team grow and evolve and become who they are is like seeing the situational awareness of guys like Ben Matherin, like Aaron Neesmith, like Myles Turner, just like tick up and up and up and up. And it's not that they don't make mistakes, but like Aaron Neesmith and Myles Turner are not. Huge passers. They're not pass first players. They certainly were not profiled that way for

• 13:38Speaker 02

  previous teams, whether in Indiana or otherwise. And yet you put them in this system for long enough and they just become a part of that DNA and they just start making really smart decisions. And the Pacers are a team that like does not make sense in so many different ways, including the fact that their offense, it's so many players running into the same spaces on the floor in a way that should not work for anybody else. And yet it's Pascal Siakam making a dump off pass to Neesmith at just the right time that it becomes an and one. Like, I don't know how else to explain them, other than you have to see it to believe it.

• 14:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then you're getting, I mean, a pretty abominable shooting series from Turner, Zach. I don't know if, I don't know, he was one for nine today in the two Indiana games, games three and four. I think he was five for 20. So that means he was six for 29 in the three home games. That makes no sense at all. I felt like all his shots were open for the most part. OK, so he was happy to take them. And yet, I thought he had some really big defensive moments in this game and was weirdly impactful, even though he couldn't shoot.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  We blocked Chet on the three. And I just thought Indiana's scramble rotations, when they needed to get out in rotation, were just on the money. They did not miss rotations. They were on time. They closed out, they closed out like to the level of the feet when they needed to. They closed out short when they needed to. They ran guys off the line when they needed to, just a dialed in performance. And like, Myles Turner and Obi Toppin are like on the seesaw. Like one, it's like even Steven, one plays bad, the other goes like five of seven from three or whatever. Obi Toppin, second leading scorer in the game today, Obi Toppin. First leading scorer in the game, MVP, Shay Gildes Alexander led all scorers with 21 points. Did not feel like it. I mean, he got a couple little bursts of momentum when they got him the ball at the nail. Eight turnovers for SGA. If you

• 15:23Speaker 01

  watched them back, a couple of them were passes that you could assign like 60% of the turnover to him and 40% of the turnover to the guy on the other end of the pass. But just, I just didn't like his game for the most part today. I don't feel like he played a controlled, like,

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Championship level guy. I thought JDub outplayed him in the first half and looked like the steadier of the two, frankly.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought.

• 15:47Bill Simmons?

  Two assists, too.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I thought I thought JDub was okay. Shay, as you said, like, it just didn't feel like that kind of Shay game that you would want in the moment like this. And then there just wasn't any connective tissue, like all the stuff that rounds out the Thunder offense, whether it's like a great Chet game, or a good bench game, or a good three-point shooting game, or any of that transition offense. None of it was there. But yeah, credit to Myles Turner, who I thought like just had Chet straight up in hell on some of these possessions. And then also the Pacer Smalls, who Chet just could not exploit really at all in this game. He was missing, missing jumpers. He was missing dunks. Could not make an imprint on it really in any, in any fashion at all. He's got to find some way. Doesn't have to be with scoring, but he has to be more of a force than this.

• 16:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know if his contract run has been helped or hurt. Probably like slightly hurt. But on the other hand, like, I think he's been a winning basketball player for a lot of stretches.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Unbelievable defensive player. Even, even the baskets they got on him on switches today were like, he made those pretty tough looks like Nemhard had the one where he had to take the ball to the other side of the rim and loft it high off the glass. He's a great defensive player, didn't have it on offense today.

• 16:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, I don't know what relative of conspiracy build this is.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 16:58Bill Simmons?

  And I gotta come up with a name for it. There's, there was two kind of non-basketball things going on with this three-day rest between game five and game six. One was just a lot of smoke being blown toward OKC, which sometimes over 72 hours, and then you're up, you got one more game, the best guy on the other team's hurt, you can get, you can get a little comfortable, right? I almost feel like they would have been better off if this game was just Wednesday, the three-day break, and just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Ty's hurt. But like, we just, we just played defense. It's, we'll be fine. There's that one thing. And then,

• 17:34Bill Simmons?

  I remember somebody with the Celtics mentioned this to me last year. By the way, it was 15 minutes before I brought up the Celtics.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Siakam beat the Celtics into the podcast.

• 17:43Bill Simmons?

  Celtics. They were up 3-0 in Dallas.

• 17:48Bill Simmons?

  Game four, if they win, like, what are we doing if we win? Where's the party gonna be? And you start like planning stuff.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:54Bill Simmons?

  And it's not just the players, but it's the organization. And teams can deny it. They can say it's not a real thing, but I'm positive it's a thing. Cause I was in Dallas watching it happen. Your brain just like, I think with the Celtics last year, their plan was to go to Miami after the game. To do all the trophy stuff and then jet to Miami and they had a setup. And it's like, your mind drifts like a tiny bit and all of a sudden your focus is off. And I don't know, the OKC seemed to me like a team today that the focus was off from this team. That was just a team of piranha. They were not piranha today.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 18:30Bill Simmons?

  And I don't think, I mean, honestly, Indiana can win game seven in OKC. If OKC plays defense like that again, they can.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Again, I thought the offense was, and the pain inflicted by the Pacers defense was almost as big, if not bigger of a story to me than Oklahoma City's shortcomings on defense. But the question I would ask you to is, as we dig into that very thing is like, if you, if you look back at this game, before you watch this game, the how of like, how did, in the actual non-garp, the first three quarters, the non-garbage quarters. I think the Pacers had like five turnovers or six turnovers total. So as you watch that game, it's now.

• 19:09Bill Simmons?

  Two at halftime.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  It's now 20 minutes into the rearview. How did they manage to protect the ball so well against this defense? Like, what were they doing or not doing to, to, to like, it's not like Oklahoma City's not trying to get turnovers, not swarming at the rim. Like, what did they do to do that?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  I think, so it was almost, I think 30 minutes of game time before the Thunder had their first steal. Like it, even those minimal turnovers were all dead ball side out, like taking all the momentum out of the possession. I think a big part of it and some of Indiana's like most successful stretches in this series have been, obviously the kind of freewheeling way that they like to execute wears down all kinds of teams, mixes things up for all kinds of teams. The moments where they've kind of simplified and attacked in some straighter lines, and they are one of the most dedicated teams in terms of like feeding their bigs against smalls. For example, when Pascal or Turner get that seal inside, they are looking for those guys. But it applies in lots of different ways to attack. I think there's, there's a way in which making Tyrese Halliburton the decoy and running some more

• 20:08Speaker 02

  traditional kind of basic action, weird as that sounds against a defense as ferocious as Oklahoma City, kind of simplified things in a way that simplified the reads that they were making and, and led to fewer of those like, I'm just caught and don't have anywhere to pass possessions that they were so guilty of in game five.

• 20:24Bill Simmons?

  So I agree with everything Rob just said, and I was writing this down over and over again in my notes as the game was going along. OKC just wasn't pressuring them the same way. They weren't meeting them up at half court like they were, especially in the second half of game four. And then I thought the first half of game five where they were basically making them start the offense 35 feet from the basket. That's just, Indiana was starting the offense wherever they wanted in this game. It never, ever, the pressure was never an issue in this game.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  I wonder how much of that was, they got called for a lot of early fouls. And I wonder how much of that was like, they just started kind of pulling back a little bit, whether it was to avoid foul trouble or whatever, you had to.

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  And ultimately it just kind of facilitated the flow of the game for the Pacers.

• 21:06Bill Simmons?

  We said that after game four, right? When we were talking about, once Dort and Caruso were getting away with the physicality, the game flipped once they realized that it was basically a football game. It was not a football game today.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Caruso, by the way, an improbable minus 33 while he was on the floor. J. Dub, minus 40. Like the Thunder just don't ever have that happen to them. My answer to answer my own question, I thought they were like very smartly selective on throwing entry passes. Like, oh, Kason Wallace is fronting Pascal Siakam. You know what? We're like, let's pull it back out. They threw a few, but I thought that like they were like much more cautious and just saying, this is like a 50 50 chance they're going to steal this. Let's just reset the offense, do something different.

• 21:50Bill Simmons?

  Yep. That's a really good point because we talked about this a couple of games ago. When SGA or Wallace was on somebody in the paint, like a bigger guy, and they would rope Indiana and throw in the entry pass. And every time they would tip it or jump around. And, uh, and today we didn't see those passes. So that might've been part of it. I still feel like. I promise you, Dagnall, who's a pretty quiet guy. I don't know if either of you have a feel for him. But I, he, he, he'll go nuts when he watches the defense tomorrow. It's like, this is just not who we are, guys. If we're gonna win the title, we gotta take it. Um, what do you, why, why are you making a face, Ryan?

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I, I really think it was the offense more. Like, this was, this was the worst Thunder offensive game by the, like, that's not me hyperbolizing. That is the by-

• 22:37Bill Simmons?

  Three-point shooting, everything.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  By the numbers, their worst offensive game of the entire season. Like, that is, that's what the data says in terms of their efficiency in this game. And now, some of that is coming from the other side of the ball. They're obviously bleeding into one another. And, and like, you, you're not getting the free points if you're not forcing turnovers in exactly the way we've been talking about. But they have to be better in the half-court, too. Like, they have to find ways ultimately to score against this Pacers defense. And it like, you gotta give Andrew Nemhard a ton of credit for that. You have to give the rotations, as Zach was talking about, pinpoint really precise execution. Like, that is, that's what it takes to win finals games like this. And I thought they were just more on that level than the Thunder were.

• 23:14Bill Simmons?

  You know what the answer might be? It might have been their offense and their defense, because they were down by 30 after three quarters.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  You get down by 30, it's, it's, it's your offense, your defense, the other team playing awesome. That's how you get a 30-point blowout in the NBA Finals.

• 23:27Bill Simmons?

  But they're, you, they're getting, what, 20 extra points a game off steals and, you know, all that. That, I do feel like that would get them going.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 23:36Bill Simmons?

  I feel like Dort, Dort and Caruso, to me, are the engines of this team, because they always know, for the most part, in the vicinity of what they're gonna get from SGA. And then Jalen Williams has just gotten better as the playoffs went along. His minus 40 today, uh, notwithstanding, not to mention three days of Scottie Pippen comparisons, including on this podcast after game five. Scotty's like, "Hey, guys, settle down. Let's have them, uh, let's have them win one first." But, uh, as we head to, uh, game seven, I'm trying to figure out- What OKC would have learned from this game from an off, from how do we fix the offensive side standpoint, Zach? Cause SGA had a couple where he drove left and he kind of got swallowed

• 24:17Bill Simmons?

  up, which I haven't seen many times this year where he, you know, he didn't get the push off stuff. He didn't get his at the rim stuff. It was weird.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Oh, that, so that's going to be a little mini battle is that the Pacers have toggled on and off throughout the series. We are going to double Shay when he gets to that spot on the left side of the floor. Today they toggled it on and Oklahoma City, with the exception of like one decent Aaron Wiggins kick out three, uh, which he missed, did not look ready for it. They threw like Shay threw passes late to like that got stolen. They just did not look prepared for it. And knowing Rick Carlisle, he might toggle it to like half off to start game seven, knowing that they're going to be looking for it. But just like more broadly, Bill, you and I have talked about this throughout the season. It does make me a little nervous that we're in game seven of the NBA finals and it still doesn't

• 25:10Speaker 01

  feel like Mark Dagnall and through all fault of his own, through fault of injuries and personnel choices, doesn't quite have a feel for like who should play with whom and for how long. So we start the series with Wallace for Hartenstein. We go back to Hartenstein and Holmgren. We start the second half today again with Caruso for Hartenstein. We get little dollops of like no big men at all, but only when we're down by 20 and the game is hopeless. The Wallace plus, uh, the Wallace version of the starting lineup, which is plus like a lot for the playoffs. I don't know if they even saw the floor at all today. It just, it makes me a little uneasy that the Pacers are like, it's a little Matherin here, Shepard here, but for the most part, the Pacers know exactly who they're going to play and when. And we've been talking about it all year and it hasn't mattered because

• 25:55Speaker 01

  they're just so goddamn good and their defense is so goddamn good. I just, I'm fast, like I don't, who's going to start for them in game seven? Who's going to start second half for them in game seven? Who's going to be like Isaiah Joe got unearthed again today, but only because they were down by 30. It just makes me a little uneasy. That's all.

• 26:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they did a little zone with an Isaiah Joe lineup. What was that in the third quarter? Which it's like, I just feel like, okay, so you should never have to play zone. It's one of the better defensive teams we've seen, but that it felt like they were a. I don't know, whiff desperate. It's a good point, though. I, I, you know, we didn't understand why they went away from the two bigs. Uh oh, we lost, we lost Rob.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  We're live. We can do it. We can carry without Rob.

• 26:37Bill Simmons?

  Rob has a castrated.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Rob's back. That was Rob, that was Rob's impression of Oklahoma City's zone defense tonight. It popped up for one, popped up for one possession, gone after that.

• 26:47Bill Simmons?

  Rob got hit by James Johnson.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  I heard one negative thing about Kason Wallace. I'm like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. I cannot stand this.

• 26:54Bill Simmons?

  So I'm with you that that lineup, that pit bull lineup they would play with Kason Wallace, like the numbers were actually pretty good for them. But we also didn't understand why they didn't start the two bigs when that had worked all year. They went back to that. But now they suddenly went away from that lineup that was plus a lot. So I don't know. I wonder if you had to guess, would they start two bigs in this game seven, Rob, or would they go with the smaller lineup that they started with in a couple of the other games?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  I'm tempted to say if the Crusoe stint had gone better in the second half today, they would have gone to it. But the fact that it came out with no real impact on the game at all, I think might, might give Mark Dagnall some pause. Ultimately, that is, I think, functionally their best lineup. Like we've seen when Alex Caruso is having a maximize effect on these games. That's the Thunder really at their best. That's their best style.

• 27:44Bill Simmons?

  Caruso, Dort, J Will, SGA and one big?

• 27:48Speaker 02

  I think they might do it. One big.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  I think that's, I call that their A lineup, although the numbers are not spectacular.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. All right. We're taking a break for the podcast. We're going to keep going on YouTube. This episode is brought to you by HubSpot. Growing a business, it can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform, I promise, can help you. It's powered by a suite of AI tools called Breeze. So you can generate more leads, close more deals, and scale your service fast. With Breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you can see results in days, not months. Visit hubspot.com/ai to learn more. I'm just gonna say this, and I didn't bet on the, I have OKC series bets, so I didn't really, I stayed

• 28:38Bill Simmons?

  away from the game today for the most part. I thought OKC had solved Indiana. And I thought they were going to win tonight pretty convincingly. And I'm really surprised how that game turned out. And I guess I shouldn't be. The legacy of this Indiana team is don't ever be surprised. Don't ever count us out. Don't ever assume it's over. And yet I just felt like the Halliburton thing, it felt like he was going to try to play limp around. It wasn't going to go well. And more importantly, I just felt like OKC had unlocked something from the second half of game four on. And then they lost it. And I don't, I, the only thing I can think of Zach is the rhythm of this finals with this,

• 29:22Bill Simmons?

  the fact that we're playing this over the course of 17 days with all these breaks. Maybe it's really hard to get a rhythm in this new 2-2, 1-1, 1-1 where that we have with all of these breaks. I don't know, like, what is the explanation?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Well, I'd like to look back. Rob makes a great point about the early fouls. I, I was aware of it, but I didn't maybe zero in on it as carefully as I thought because you know, there, there were two ways the Thunder could come out in this game. Way number one was what happened when they were just a little bit skittish and just sort of out of rhythm on offense. Way number two was just like, let's just pedal to the metal, fly on defense, take some risks. Just take the force to them to a point that might almost be dangerous for us on some possessions. If a gamble goes wrong or whenever we fly, we hit somebody and there's a foul. I, I thought they would just, let's just come out and overwhelm them with speed and force. And they didn't, they did not do that. They just, I mean, I, I don't know why, but again, credit to the Pacers.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  They played awesome and they took this game. And I was with you. I thought with the Halliburton situation, I, I didn't think Indiana was going to win the game.

• 30:29Bill Simmons?

  What about you, Rob?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  I, I thought the same. I, you know, I think frankly, the difference in what we saw from Halliburton was meaningful, not just in terms of how they managed his minutes, but how he managed those minutes. Like there was the possession where he gets Chet on a pump fake on a three, does a jump pass to Neesmith in the corner. And in game five, that's like end of story for Tyrese Halliburton. He was not moving well enough. He would have stopped right there. In this game, it turns into a give and go for a layup. And there were so many possessions like that for him where it's like, he's continuing to play through whatever consecutive action Indiana is running. And now all of a sudden, he isn't a decoy. He's not just a standstill shooter. He's someone who's actually changing the flow of play. And if he's able to do that, that's a meaningful thing. But now that the Thunder are prepared for that,

• 31:12Speaker 02

  how do they come into a potential game seven? I, I think there's so many weird little psychological elements of this, like all the skittishness we're talking about for the Thunder. How skittish are they going to be when their season is on the line too? Like, how is that going to change the way that they play? Are they going to have that force?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I expect Indiana, Indiana just plays its game. Like, I, I, I just expected Indiana to come out and play like Indiana in game seven. And just like, the stage is the stage. They just play and it's, they just keep playing. It's why they win these crunch time games. I don't expect them to look any different or any, any. Oklahoma City's going to have to win the game at home.

• 31:45Bill Simmons?

  Halliburton had a really nice quick trigger three in the second quarter. That was a shot he wasn't taking a lot in these finals where he just had a pick. He had a split second opening to shoot one and he just shot it. And I remember thinking like, it's a pretty good sign. Like, if, if he can at least do that. Couple threes, he got into the paint. Like the Indiana people always talk about the paint touches with him. Watch the paint touches. Can he get in the paint? So he did that. Um. So, OKC, big picture. This will be the second game seven out of four series. They are now 68 and 14 in the, in the regular season, 15 and 7 in the playoffs. 83 and 21. So Rob, I know this is sad for you.

• 32:30Bill Simmons?

  They're now out of the 20 losses or less club. One of my favorite clubs that I created.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  I'm heartbroken. Do you have a different arbitrary line you would like to create for them?

• 32:39Bill Simmons?

  No, I think this is the right line because this includes the 96 Bulls, 87 and 13. 17 Warriors, 83 and 16. 97 Bulls, 84 and 17. 86 Celts and 87 Lakers, both 82 and 18.

• 32:54Bill Simmons?

  The 2015 Warriors, 83 and 20, and the 2013 Heat. Oh, no, they're not in there. Actually, they're out. Sorry. That's the whole list. And then it goes into the like, the under 80 win teams, like the 83 Sixters, 71 Bucks, etc. But they are now off that list, much like the Celtics last year got bounced with that game four loss in Dallas. So historically, I think we were all struggling to wrap our heads around OKC wins in six. What was this team? Was this a great season? Was it something more? Was it the beginning of something? But now, you know, I get taken as seven by Denver and by Indiana, where their best guys basically on one leg in the deciding.

• 33:38Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Not great for their for their legacy, Zach.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Look, I did the same basketball reference, deep dives. I got it all written out on paper right here. All this list of teams, the great teams of all time, just to have it, just to have it ready. And you know what? I don't care. It's in the garbage now. The only thing I care about, the only record, 20 losses, 80 wins, whatever. The only record I care about for the next 72 hours is 3-3. That's all that stuff is gone now. You got to win one game or your season is officially a disappointment. That's where we are and you lose the championship at home. That's it.

• 34:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's a little more at stake for OKC, Rob.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:18Bill Simmons?

  I mean, the 3-2 lead, blowing the 68-14 season and losing at home, becoming the fifth team ever to lose at home in a game seven. It's almost like there's more pressure on them, even though they're the home team.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  I think you could read it both ways, and I think all of that is true. I also think if you were to bet which of these teams is more likely to be back in the NBA Finals in the near future. I think the Thunder are probably the safer bet. That's no disrespect to the Pacers, but just like the reality of what the Thunder have built and the way it is constructed to last. It's incredible. They're gonna be good for a long time. We have every expectation of that. I just think in terms of what is actually at stake, all this legacy talk, how we're gonna contextualize them. It's really cool if you can wrap up the finals in five or six games. Winning a game seven in the NBA Finals is pretty fucking cool. And that's, that can submit you in a different kind of immortality than basically anything else can.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  And so when you're talking about consummate winners and we're talking about what stars do we compare Shay to if the Thunder were to go on to win? Or Tyrese Halliburton or Pascal Siakam, whoever goes on to win, like there just is no bigger feather in a cap than this.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  All that matters is that you win in the end. Like all these discussions, it's like you either win or you don't. And all that matters is you win. It doesn't matter how you do it. It doesn't matter what the margin is. Cause it's hard to get one. I mean, it's hard. It's like the, by, by any measure, this team is incredibly well positioned to get multiple titles. I just think people are writing that even with this team as well set up as they are too casually. Like it's hard to win a lot of NBA chip. Like people are like, well, they could win three, four, five. Like, whoa. Like it's hard to win that many NBA championships. You gotta get one. Think about what the 2021 title means to the Bucks. Like everything's kind of been disarrayed since then.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  First round losses, trade rumors, all that. They got one and that validates everything that came before. And it really lessens the pain of everything that comes after, no matter what it is. You gotta get one before we start having these historical, Boston, you know, I was the best.

• 36:24Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for bringing them up.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  The best shot at, at, you know, breaking the, breaking the no repeat streak was gonna be, I think, a goal of theirs to really cement their, to, to your point about historical context and not knowing how to place the 60 whatever win Boston team from last year that had this margin. But they didn't feel like the 86 Celtics or whatever. One way to elevate yourself and to stamp that first championship is to repeat. And they talked about how much they wanted to do that. They didn't get out of the second round of the playoffs and their best player got injured. Like it's really, really hard. You just gotta win. Everything has to stop until you win one because one is still really hard to get.

• 37:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, one thing about game sevens, at least recent history, and we're going back.

• 37:10Bill Simmons?

  If you go post ABA merger, we've had 1978, 84, 88, 94, oh five, 2010, 13 and 16. They're usually pretty close games. They're usually really tense. They're ugly.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:26Bill Simmons?

  They're not like exceptionally well played.

• 37:30Bill Simmons?

  You look up and you're like, oh my God, is it the fourth quarter yet? And it's like two minutes into the second quarter. There's a weightiness to it. I was lucky enough to go to the 2010 one and the 2013 one.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Were you lucky to be at that one? That's, that's a lucky, I guess you were lucky.

• 37:46Bill Simmons?

  Lucky from a like loving basketball.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:48Bill Simmons?

  I was absolutely miserable afterwards as the confetti dropped. Laker fans are going nuts. That was miserable.

• 37:58Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, there's, there's a weight that you can feel in those that I can't really describe.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:03Bill Simmons?

  Everybody kind of, everybody who's in their seats, everybody who's on, on the benches, everybody who's on the court. They understand like this is like life altering stuff now. That if you win this, this is the rest of your life. If you lose it, you'll be thinking about it the rest of your life. They usually come down to one or two plays. They usually come down to one random dude on one of the teams just getting hot or making some shot. Like in 2010, Artest just hit that three and that kind of decided the game. Nobody in the arena wanted to take him. He took it in 2013. Did you go to that one, Zach? The game seven?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  I was there.

• 38:41Bill Simmons?

  Which was an awesome game. Everybody remembers the Ray Allen shot, but the next game was, was really great. And Duncan had a little bunny from like five feet.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:52Bill Simmons?

  To tie the game with like 50 seconds left that he's made his entire life. And it didn't go in and he couldn't believe it. And they had to foul and he like sunk to the, I'll never forget.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  You smacked the floor, I think.

• 39:03Bill Simmons?

  Sunk to the ground, punched the ground. Like he just couldn't believe it didn't go in. But a lot of times these games come down to that, these, you know, so I feel like this will be a good game. I don't think this will be, usually in the earlier rounds, it's so and so wins by 30. I don't, I don't see that happening in this game. What do you think, Rob?

• 39:20Speaker 02

  I, I'm in line with that. And to your point about the random role player, the random guy, like this is a Lou Dort, Aaron Neesmith, Alex Caruso, Andrew Nemhard kind of moment.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  Wiggins.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  This is a Wiggins six out of seven from three.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I think by extension, like in games that are that tense with that kind of physicality, that get that ugly, that's also like a Pascal Siakam kind of moment. Like who is the most adaptable piece on the floor? Who is the guy who can do a little bit of everything?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  He's been in the finals before.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Been in the finals before. Who, who's the guy you trust with three seconds left on the shot clock to hit a crazy turnaround that he has no business hitting, just by the, the nature and the context of the possession? That's Pascal Siakam to me. Like those are the possessions that he manages to turn out through sheer versatility that almost no one else in this series can. Like J Dub has some of that, obviously Shay is like an incredible shot maker. Like there are guys who can hit great shots, but I, I will be incredibly shocked if Pascal Siakam does not have exactly that kind of Swiss Army knife effect on game seven. Like that's just, that's just who he is, is the impact he's had on these games.

• 40:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to throw out Matherin again, too, who did nothing today and really hasn't done anything since that game three. But I, my guess is Carlisle, who's been in situations like this. He'll just, he'll just have like multiple grills on the oven going and he'll be like, I'm going to throw Matherin in the pan for two minutes here and just kind of see what happens. And what, what does Ben Shepard have going? Anything? And he'll sprinkle guys around until he sees somebody that he likes. Whereas OKC, I think Wiggins would be the, uh, you know, especially at home. And then the defense of Dort and Caruso, I would say would be the other two. But you know, this could also be a situation where

• 41:04Bill Simmons?

  like Shay is just awesome. Jalen Williams is just awesome. Uh, I love game sevens. It's crazy to me. Can you name the four teams that have won one?

• 41:12Speaker 02

  On the road?

• 41:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Cavs, right?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Cavs is the most recent one.

• 41:17Bill Simmons?

  2016 Cavs, the Festus Ezeli classic.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Oh, come on.

• 41:21Bill Simmons?

  Six straight points, trapped, trapped 25 feet from the basket against one of the greatest players of all time.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Your 1969 Boston Celtics is one.

• 41:30Bill Simmons?

  The 74 Celtics in Milwaukee. Coming off Kareem's skyhook in game six, where it seems like they blew the series. And then the fourth one.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  I'm really trying to get it.

• 41:42Bill Simmons?

  Not a lot of buzz for this series. Might even been taped delayed. The 1978 Bullets Sonics.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Wasn't gonna get it.

• 41:49Bill Simmons?

  Classic. Bullets went on the road. Dennis Johnson, 0 for 14.

• 41:56Bill Simmons?

  Pre Twitter. So, you know, I don't think he took a huge beating. Seattle comes back the next year, wins the title. And that's it. Those are the four. We've had some close ones, like 2013 Spurs came damn close. 2010 Celtics, that was down to the last minute. That 05 Spurs Pistons game was, was a rock fight, but was still pretty close with two minutes left.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Serious. We should make an, we should do an off-season project of like rewatching 2005 Piston Spurs. No, everyone hated it. It went seven. It was super intense. There's a huge Ori shot in there somewhere, I think.

• 42:31Bill Simmons?

  Game five. No, the wrong teams are in this series, because, I mean, Indiana was the best. Ironically, Artest was in the arena tonight, because the Pacers had everyone back, including Artest. And I guess there's no line anymore for who gets invited back, because facts are facts. Like, he started a huge riot in a game, got suspended for the season and cost them the title. And they're like, Ron, welcome back. Here's Pacers jersey. But I thought the 05 Pacers were the, I thought they were probably the best team that year. And then Miami was really good too. And Wade got hurt.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:05Bill Simmons?

  And we just kind of ended up with this Piston Spurs. Duncan was hurt, like it was a weird one. It was just one of those years.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Zach, your idea is both a great editorial idea and also Spotify insurance does not cover the mental.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Rewatchables 2005 finals is not, is not gonna happen.

• 43:22Bill Simmons?

  No, it was a rock fight. The horror game was really good, though. No, but I think that was, that was one of those years where we were like, thank God for the Suns. At least we get to watch one team run a fast break and do some stuff. The 94 Rockets next game was another one that was a rock fight. 88 Lakers Pistons was really fun. 84 Lakers Celtics was, you know, a pretty famous game.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  88 Lakers Pistons, game seven in LA. Is that the controversial Lambert foul on Kareem at the end of the game? Is that that game?

• 43:53Bill Simmons?

  By controversial, do you, do you mean?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Okay, I was just so easy. I was just, I was teeing you up. Okay?

• 43:59Bill Simmons?

  Like an absolute abomination? A slight touch foul on a Kareem skyhook to decide the title?

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, because I've done it. If you bring that up to Joe Dumars, it's like you just be prepared for like 12 minutes of, of commentary.

• 44:14Bill Simmons?

  There's two terrible calls because there's that and then they have the ball with three, like five seconds left. They inbound it after two free throws. The fans stormed the court as the final play is going on where they have a chance to get a three off. And Magic decks Isaiah and they just, they're like, let's get out of here. And they just kind of end the game. It's unprecedented. It's unbelievable to watch. Anyway. So 16 Cleveland was the last one. That was the last one in almost 50 years. And that had, you know, LeBron, one of the two best players of all time. That had Curry who was hurt. That had Andrew Bogut was out. It was an absolute rock fight.

• 44:55Bill Simmons?

  And it had Kyrie make one of the great final shots in the last minute. And the Warriors still almost won that game.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  And what was the game? It was a rock fight for everybody but Draymond Green somehow made like a million threes.

• 45:06Bill Simmons?

  34, yeah. Forgot about that. So, yeah, could Indiana be the fifth team ever? I guess what we've learned in the playoffs this year is do not count them out. I just, I'm done counting them out. What do you think the line is, Rob?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  I think it's.

• 45:22Bill Simmons?

  You're not a huge gambling guy.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  I think the Thunder are favored for sure. I mean, one thing we have not said, the Thunder at home is a very different enterprise. And that is a home court advantage. I do genuinely believe in that it actually does make a tangible difference on the flow of the game. I think they are probably favored by four and a half points. That would be my guess.

• 45:42Bill Simmons?

  It's minus eight and a half.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  I was gonna go higher. I was gonna go higher than four and a half.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  See, no one respects the Pacers, even Vegas.

• 45:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Eight and a half, that's probably the lowest they've been favored at home. All right. So let's do, um, let's do a morning TV segment. Zach.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 46:00Bill Simmons?

  Who has the most at stake in game seven?

• 46:05Speaker 01

  The most at stake?

• 46:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Uh, okay. Okay. I'll take the bait. I'll take the bait.

• 46:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Most at stake in game seven.

• 46:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  It's Shay Gildes Alexander. It's capping an MVP season with a championship and I, I think he's probably still the favorite to win finals MVP. And yeah, he'll have other chances, right? But nothing is guaranteed in this life. Nothing is guaranteed in the NBA. No one on the Pacers, other than like Rick Carlisle, maybe has this sort of like what, what would it like? They're all so young in their careers. I guess you could say Halliburton immediately elevates himself.

• 46:44Bill Simmons?

  Sure.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  Into, into, or sets himself up to be elevated into different kinds of conversations. Uh, it's gotta be Shay, right? Was there any other answer to this?

• 46:52Speaker 02

  I think Shay makes sense. I mean, he's, he's in a position if they do win. As far as guys who have won a title and an MVP before they turned 27, that's like a very, very select group of players. That's Bill Walt, since the merger, Bill Walton.

• 47:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Tim Duncan, Steph.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  The underachieving Giannis Antetokounmpo. And potentially Shay. Like that's, that is a, a rare class of player that he could thrust himself in with an achievement like that. It's.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Any, any nominee, any, uh, anyone wanting to, wanting to make Paul George or the Clippers, Clippers front office?

• 47:28Bill Simmons?

  Paul George reading, reading for Indiana, right?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Paul George's legacy is all, is all over this series.

• 47:34Bill Simmons?

  So I, I have one more name for a what's at stake.

• 47:39Bill Simmons?

  Sam Presti.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Sure. And it's a good one. It's a good one.

• 47:43Bill Simmons?

  Do that mean related to what I just said? Best GM in the last 20 years. Up 3-2. He's been, you know, he's been knocking at the door really since 2012 in a bunch of different ways. And this seemed like the year it was going to happen. And I do not think he's sleeping tonight, would be my guess.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  But if they lose, it's more that what does he have to gain? Like clinching, clinching his place in history. Like it's like if they lose game seven, you'd be like, man, he really messed up this team.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  No, yeah, it wouldn't be that, but it would be more like, wow. Who's done a better job in basketball over a longer stretch without actually having a payoff with the title? Although we learned from LeBron last week, rings don't matter anymore. Ring culture.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Is that what he said?

• 48:30Bill Simmons?

  What did he say? Ring culture stupid?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  I'm not letting you suck me into any of this.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  I don't think that's what happened.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  So SGA right now is in this. If he wins the title. People who average at least 30 a game.

• 48:45Bill Simmons?

  And won the title. And it's not a long list and it includes Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kareem, Shaq, Kawhi Leonard, LeBron James, Giannis, Kobe and Jokic.

• 48:58Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Pretty good. Yeah.

• 48:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So yeah, I would say he is.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Thirty a game in the playoffs, right?

• 49:04Bill Simmons?

  Thirty a game in the playoffs.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Okay, because I was like, Hakeem, 30 points a game and I had that.

• 49:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, 30 a game in the playoffs. So that's it. There's a slight, Jalen Williams could do a big game James Worthy in the seventh game.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 49:18Bill Simmons?

  And have that kind of, you know?

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Why is that just slight? He just had 40 points.

• 49:24Bill Simmons?

  It's a game seven. It's, you know, I'm saying like James Worthy had an iconic game, game seven, right? He won the, uh, did he win finals? I can't remember. But that's always been the James Worthy game. Although I remember it the way Zach did is the, I can't believe they called that foul on Liam Beer game. And why don't, and it, why doesn't anyone care that people are jumping on the court? So we'll see what happens. Zach, did you care about the Lakers selling for a valuation of $10 billion? Not actually $10 billion?

• 49:50Speaker 01

  I cared about the Lakers selling. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of tentacles to that and how it could go going forward and the gradual exiting of the bus family from, you know, total control of the team. I think that's, that's very interesting. I don't want to talk about it yet. Can we, can we talk about the finals for two more minutes?

• 50:08Bill Simmons?

  Okay. What else do you have?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Well, I just wanted, they, they just updated the stats.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  On NBA.com. And I just want to read the offensive ratings for the series. Indiana, 109.5, Oklahoma City, 110.5.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  That is about the equivalent of the Utah offense against the New Orleans offense in the regular season. I just want to tip my cap to both defenses because this has been a defensive series and both of them have stepped up to the plate, including Indiana. Like, those are pretty stark. Like, these offenses have kind of been ground into nubs in this series. Like, that's pretty impressive stuff. That's all I wanted. I just saw the numbers. I wanted to say that before we talked about the Lakers.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Who, Rob? Who do you think we, I don't want to say underestimate in terms of the Pacers' defense, but like, maybe you weren't categorizing correctly because you look at the Thunder defense, obviously in the regular season, the numbers were what they were, their success was what it was. It drove a 68-win juggernaut season, that defense. And you could look up and down, you know, J. Dubb, second-team All-Defense, Lou Dort, first-team All-Defense, or at least Worthy, and, you know, that's not, say nothing about guys like Caruso and Hartenstein, who might have made it if they had been healthier. You never really hear any of that with the Pacers. You never really hear it about Andrew Nemhard, or Aaron Neesmith, or Myles Turner, or Pascal Siakam. And I'm wondering, like, what is it that we are missing? If it's in terms of individual talent, or is it just the kind of collective play and

• 51:34Speaker 02

  the way those guys are able to work off of each other? Like, what is it that it's been able to elevate their defense in the way that it has?

• 51:40Bill Simmons?

  I guess my thought on that would be they try so freaking hard consistently, which I think is like, it was, JJ had that quote during the season when they asked him, what did he learn coaching a team? And he's like, the number one thing I've learned is that you have to try really hard, and when you don't, it gets really hard. Like, he had one of those quotes like that. It was like, I've learned that over everything else, how important effort is. It sounds stupid, but effort matters the most. And Indiana, for whatever reason, those guys play really, really hard all the time. So, you know, you look at the guys individually, Nemhard's not, he doesn't have a ton of size. Right, but he's able to stay with SGA, like TJ McConnell, you would never think of him as like a lockdown defender. Toppin certainly has never been accused of being an awesome defensive

• 52:23Bill Simmons?

  player. You're going down the line and it doesn't really make sense. I do think Neesmith feels like he's finally moving the way he did before he hurt his ankle in that Knicks series. Cause he had a couple of those threes, when you know, and Zach and I know this, cause we've watched the highlights on Neesmith Island together. Those threes he hit when he's running full speed, stops in the corner with, and just puts so much torque on his lower body, but then could still get off these threes. And I didn't feel like he was doing that for about two weeks there with his, with his ankle. And he seems healthy to me now.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  There's a statue of that on Neesmith Island, a contested like, like three leaning three.

• 53:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Was, was there power on Neesmith Island? Or were these highlights like shadows on the cave wall? Like, how were you watching them?

• 53:08Bill Simmons?

  Generator.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a drive-in theater right in the middle of the island now. You could drive your car up, sit and have a couple of drinks and just watch highlights of Aaron Neesmith.

• 53:17Bill Simmons?

  Is there another island we need to start after the success at Neesmith Island? Is there anybody you had your eye on, Zach?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  How long do you want this podcast to be? I mean,

• 53:25Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Was there a number one draft pick for you?

• 53:28Speaker 01

  I don't know. I have to, I wasn't prepared for that question. Think hard about it. I want, like Pacers defense, two, three, four of their starting lineup, just rock solid across the board. Maybe not an all defense level player among them, although maybe, but just like rock solid. Halliburton has just amped up his effort to a new level throughout the entire playoffs. Like, he's always going to be the liability, the weak link, but he has just, the way he rotates around the floor and contest shots, he's a, he's a different guy than he was last season. And I would love to go and look at schematically exactly what Indiana is doing. Because if you look at like, people have stopped kind of talking about, because the Thunder have been winning games, how low their passes per game numbers are in the

• 54:13Speaker 01

  series, they've stayed super low, even as the Thunder appear to have taken control of the series. And over and over again, we see these games where they don't move the ball, they don't get assists, they don't generate threes. And it's like, what, what is, what is their team and their coaching staff doing? And what are they not doing to continue to coax the Thunder into this like trap of mud where they just get nothing easy? And I don't know the answer to that. I do know that this is probably the reason why after all of the talk before the series was, well, Indiana, you know, they, they'll spring a zone here and there. This is, they've played no zone at all, because I think they're just like, all his own is going to do is give them easy passes all over the floor

• 54:57Speaker 01

  and space all over the floor. And as long as they're not doing that against Armand Abell, like, we're just not going to it. But it's much more complicated than that. But they have gummed up Oklahoma City in the same way, every game, to the point that Oklahoma City doesn't get the 20 points in transition off of turnovers. Like, this is the kind of results you're going to get. And I would love to go deeper into, I, I would love to know more about what they're doing, basically.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Well, I think some of it is what you mentioned earlier, Zach, about the fact that Rick Carlisle can, for example, toggle how much they're doubling Shea, game to game, moment to moment, quarter to quarter, stretch to stretch, whatever it may end up being. They're just one of those defenses that is not any one thing. And I say that even to mean like, who is their go to stopper? One series is Aaron Neesmith, because Nemhard doesn't really have as much of a shot guarding Jalen Brunson. In this series, even despite what you may think of, like, who Shea is physically and the defenders who profile well against him, Nemhard's been great. And in some series, it's Siakam. And in some series, like, you're just really relying on the help and the rotation of all those guys. And so I think there is an element of, you're never quite sure what to expect from them. You're never quite sure, coming into a series between games, do we have it

• 56:03Speaker 02

  nailed down, the way that they are going to guard this exact action? I don't think anyone does. And I think that's a huge part of what makes a bunch of really smart, physical, intuitive defenders be wildly successful in a run like this.

• 56:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Zach's toggle thing. It's actually a football. It's like a cornerback blitz or like a safety, but like where you kind of know a blitz is coming. Maybe, maybe it's not coming. Oh no, it's going to come a lot. Nope, it's not coming anymore. And that seems like what they're trying to do to SGA and they're sending those late blitzes at them. It's pretty cool to watch.

• 56:37Bill Simmons?

  Zach, my broker, I'll call you tomorrow. There's some opportunity on Cam Whitmore Island if he's in the Phoenix trade. I don't know if you're interested. Maybe a, maybe a cabin.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I mean, he could average 20 points a game and a snap. He might not win.

• 56:52Bill Simmons?

  Rob, let us know if you want.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  I'm in. He was a, I want to say the first or second overall pick in our group chat expansion draft exercise this year. Lot, a lot of Cam Whitmore fans over on group chat. We believe.

• 57:04Bill Simmons?

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• 57:49Bill Simmons?

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• 58:32Bill Simmons?

  PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Did you want to talk about the Lakers? I rudely swayed the discussion away from the Lakers. It seemed like you wanted to talk about the Lakers.

• 58:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was the most interesting thing that's happened since the last time I've talked to you. And I haven't talked to Rob this whole finals. Just something that had been rumored for a while. And especially after Mark Walter bought the 27% in 2021. And he had the hammer if they ever tried to sell. And I was like, well, if they ever sell, it's going to be to this guy. And then the Celtics sale sale happens and it's like, hmm. And there had been some buzz.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  And then out of nowhere, it happened. And I don't, I'm not positive it was out of nowhere because there had been some, some rumblings. But, you know, for what, given the fact that he had the big stake already. And then the bus family kept 18%. So he only had to buy another 48% to get that majority stake. So he slapped down the 4.8 billion. It seems like it's 10, but it's half that. It's still like a crazy amount of money for a team that doesn't own an arena. And I had the same reaction with the Celtics. Like, even though I knew the number was going to be the number, I'm still like, kind of staggered. They have a lease that goes through Staples Center until 2041. I think the rest of the league, and you're already seeing stuff that being mentioned and written about.

• 59:48Bill Simmons?

  The Lakers notoriously really frugal for a team that was the signature franchise in the league. There were millions of stories.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  They are but a mom and pop franchise, Bill.

• 59:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're being run like the local drugstore in Pasadena. And meanwhile, they're the biggest drugstore in America. And, and people are wondering, well, what if that changes? What does that mean? I still feel like they were spending a lot of money, Rob. It's not like they were cheaping out on luxury tax. But it will be interesting to see if what, what this group was able to do with the Dodgers. Professionalizes the Lakers in the same way, what that's going to mean. I think it's pretty scary.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they're spending a lot of money. And then there's caution to the wind level money. There is, we're just going to try to blow this thing over the top. And that can get you, as the Phoenix Suns can attest, into some really deep water sometimes. Take you to some really dark places as a franchise. I think there is the Lakers element of the story. And then there's the larger, like, there is a whole class of NBA owners and governors who are now selling and migrating out of that business. I think some of that is just those valuation numbers going up and up and up to a point where you just can't say no anymore realistically to something like that. But. Is this something that a lot of people are getting out of the NBA owning business? That this is the time that they have selected to say Lakers, Celtics, Mavericks, Hornets? Who else? Who else has sold recently? There's, I mean, the Wolves has given a kind of a protracted process.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  The Suns, of course.

• 1:01:11Bill Simmons?

  So I've heard this argument, and I think if you go case by case, each one actually makes sense individually and doesn't seem like part of a larger trend. Like the Celtics one, Wicks dad wanted to sell and he owned the biggest chunk of the team and he's hitting his 90s and he wanted to get his estate in order and that was it. They won the title, he wanted out. The Mavericks thing was super weird for a bunch of reasons. They had a bunch of organizational stuff going on. Mark Cuban might want to run for president.

• 1:01:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if that was, and I want to get ahead of this whole media rights thing. This is the perfect time. I actually think he probably would have been better off holding on for a year or two more. Timberwolves thing, the guy regretted it the moment he agreed to the deal. He was trying to get out of it for three years.

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Bill Simmons?

  The Suns, they made Sarver sell. So this is the first one where.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  I guess Portland's in that group too, although that's been another kind of long gestating process.

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was like a family. The guy was, the guy died and left it to the family. I think with, when you have these, a lot of siblings in a family and siblings getting older and they start thinking about the estate tax stuff. I think it does change, like they look at him like, hey, we can cash in now. We split all the money and there's ways to do it. But Zach, you think going forward with the Dodgers owning the Lakers, basically, and Luka Doncic in there? This is a pretty safe bet to be a dominant franchise now, I would say, for the next 10 years, because they've proven they can do this with the Dodgers.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, people are going to laugh at the idea that, you know, what, what did the, what is, do the Lakers need more? I mean, they're the Lakers. There's a reason Laker exceptionalism. Stars just fall into their lap all the time. Like they already had this baked in advantage and. If the NBA is not baseball, you can't spend on payroll infinitely. There's, there's a cap and a hardish cap and it's not baseball.

• 1:03:02Bill Simmons?

  But you can spend on all the other stuff, which is like something Bombers doing.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  So that's the point. That's the point is all of this stuff that the Lakers have not spent on commensurate with their place in the market, whether it's analytics, scouting, video, all the fancy stuff. Like it's, it's kind of cute to make fun of that. Like, oh, is that really going to help the Lakers? Like the Lakers need help. Is it really going to help on the, on the fringes of the roster? Cause they'll miss on a lot of those moves on the fringes of the roster. But the point is like over time, if you set yourself up to just make better decisions on roster spots, five to 15, over 10, 20, 30 years, you will in the aggregate make better decisions on roster spots, five to 15. And that is where all the spending, uh, I think will matter. There's just, I think it's super, I think it's super interesting.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  I just think the bus family game of thrones thing is really interesting. I think the bus like, like Jerry Buss, obviously he's been passed away for a while, but that class of owner is, is leaving. And you talked about people getting out of the NBA business. These prices are like, there's only so many people that can even get into the NBA business right now. Even to buy like 5% of these teams is an enormous amount of money. And it just is going to open the door for like, what kind of funds are going to get more involved? Are we moving more in that direction? Because we're just running, you can only go to Larry Ellison so many times. And be like, hey, you want eight billion? You want a team? Like, there's just not many of those people.

• 1:04:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And it seemed, oh, go ahead, Rob.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, it feels telling, you know, like the Lakers are in their own class as we've decided or discussed in terms of what their appeal is to players and what their place is in the league. Like they are a unique case. But we're coming off a week in which Desmond Bain showed up at the, at the practice facility in Orlando was like, This isn't what it's like in Memphis and coming off a week in which there was a clip of Dejounte Murray going around, talking about how he couldn't even get time on the training table in New Orleans.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  The Pelicans are, the Pelicans are like a whole, a whole separate thing.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Totally, totally separate thing. But all of which is to say, there is lots of room on the margins to do things that are meaningful to your bottom line as an organization, are meaningful to players, are meaningful to your success as a franchise that are right there. Like spending on training facilities, spending on a practice facility, spending on assistant coaches, spending on analytics, like all of that stuff is within any owner's theoretical grasp if they would care to do it. And everyone pinches pennies somewhere and tightens the bell buckle somewhere else, but like that stuff is right there for the taking for any owner who wants to do it.

• 1:05:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I think, I feel comfortable saying this. I, I think they succeeded the last 20 years despite the ownership situation, the Lakers.

• 1:05:40Speaker 01

  I also think.

• 1:05:41Bill Simmons?

  I really do. I, I feel like.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Well, was it all the litigation and like?

• 1:05:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, if LeBron doesn't decide in 2008, you know, 2017 range, I'm going to go to the Lakers, I want to move all my operations there. They're just a mess like any other team. They would have had all these weird lottery picks. They would have had to try to figure out how, you know, they picked second three years in a row. Then they traded all the rest of their picks for Anthony Davis. Like, I feel like they succeeded despite the ownership situation. Now, granted, they just made one of the best trades in the history of professional sports. So you can't criticize it too much, but I'm just saying like, what the Dodgers have done and what that ownership group has done for that team, if they can figure out how to do something similar in basketball and the same kind of advantages, Zach, I just feel like this is going to be different.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Not only, a couple of things on what you just said. I think because LeBron went there and then LeBron's agents basically got Anthony Davis to join him there.

• 1:06:43Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  The whole like five or six straight years when they were out of the playoffs and a total disaster and the Nick Young, DeMar, D'Angelo Russell like thing happened and all of that.

• 1:06:55Bill Simmons?

  The Kobe extension.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  That was a long time. That was like a Charlotte Hornets Sacramento Kings stretch of like, what the hell is going on here? This is like 27, 35 win seasons like, and there was no guarantee it would end. And then LeBron came and then AD came and to my earlier point, they got one. And that's a big deal to get one. They got one and now they've been handed this life raft to the post LeBron era in, in Luca, but like they're gonna have to, it's not like the West is no joke. It's there's not like they're guaranteed a title any, in the next five years, just because they got Luca, they're gonna have to work to get it.

• 1:07:32Bill Simmons?

  The other big thing that happened this week, since the last time I saw you Zach, and we haven't talked about this at all, Rob, is we thought a Kevin Durant trade would happen by now. By all accounts, the offers are not good.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  I'm checking my phone just in case. Every, when you see me looking down, I'm just looking for just, just in case.

• 1:07:46Bill Simmons?

  The word on the street is the offers have sucked. And they made the classic mistake of basically what happened with David Griffin last year in New Orleans, right? It's like, can't have this roster anymore. We've got to make some moves. And the rest of the league is like, oh, you gotta make some moves, huh? Heard you had to make some moves. Yeah. Oh, here's my crappy offer. I don't know how this KD thing plays out anymore, Rob. I would assume it's going to be Houston and I would assume it's maybe it's going to be a shortened version of the, the trades Russell and I were talking about on Sunday. And maybe it's just Jabari Smith and, and Jalen Green and Jalen Green gets rerouted somewhere and maybe that's the entire

• 1:08:25Bill Simmons?

  trade. But at some point, the price becomes low enough that if you're Phoenix, you might have to go, look, KD, we, we tried to trade you. There were no good deals. We're keeping you.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  I think that's easier said than done, though, with the Jalen Green aspect of that. Like nesting doll, nesting doling the Jalen Green trade saga within the Kevin Durant trade saga and trying to find the 13 that's like super high on Jalen Green.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Very hard.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  I think it's quite challenging and like I can understand like Houston for, for Kevin Durant. I would love to see it. I think it makes a ton of basketball sense. Granted, you know, the, the varying levels of agreement within that organization as far as like who is gung ho about that move and who is more patient about it. I, I get all of it. I think they have proven defensively and in terms of the core of that team, that they are ready to take a step forward, that they're ready to consolidate some of that talent with exactly a player like Kevin Durant. And so there should be, I think there should be a lot of will on Houston's side to get it done. I understand why they might be like slow playing that market and why Phoenix would be kicking the tires on everyone to the point that like, have we already rounded the corner to Detroit being in this conversation? Is that a thing yet? Cause I feel like they could be in this conversation if they.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  I've been, I've been banging this drum for two weeks, three weeks.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  They definitely should be.

• 1:09:37Bill Simmons?

  Come on. Well, there have to be some prize in there other than the Tobias contract.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Of course. Yeah. Like just a matter of who you like. Are you a Ron Holland, Jaden Ivey?

• 1:09:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I still like Jabari.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  It feels like a great ending. It feels like a great ending for Kevin Durant's sort of strange, meandering career post OKC is like this random franchise that's been kind of in purgatory to bad for quite a long time in this market that doesn't draw free agents. What if Kevin Durant and Cade Cunningham and Asar Thompson and Jalen Duren made the finals one year for the Detroit Pistons? It's a perfect ending.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  What if he saves the American auto industry? You know, like I think there's lots of options on the board for us that could be very exciting.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  The Chrysler Durantula coming to his crisis.

• 1:10:24Bill Simmons?

  I'll tell you this, if I'd want to be in the East, if I was anybody who's. I guess Durant's already won some rings. So maybe he's looking for basketball.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  You guess he's already won some rings?

• 1:10:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, no, I'm just saying he doesn't have to chase like some other guys.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  A burner account is going to tweet something just because you said that.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  I know he's won some rings. Sorry, Kevin Durant. Please don't at me. No, but I think he would, he's probably looking for basketball happiness more than I have one more chance. I need my third ring because so and so only has two. I don't think he thinks.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  The most interesting part of the Houston Phoenix negotiations to me, which I assume just comes down to Phoenix identifying two or three things they'd like thrown in and Houston trying to hold on to two of those three things or whatever it is, is the 2027 Suns draft pick because in trading for Kevin Durant, I'm probably making your team worse in the short term, you know, for the next couple of seasons at least, and giving you a puzzle that you've got to build your way out of before that 2027 draft pick comes due. And I'd like to keep it. Like, I'd like to keep that pick and, you know, I assume Phoenix is absolutely dead set on getting it back. And I just think that's a, that's a really delicious little piece of like, I don't, I would love to be on those phone calls.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, we're at the point now where it seemed like there were three teams, like, like leaving Indiana this weekend. It seemed like it was a three team race. He said he picked his teams. All right, here we go. We're gonna, now it feels like eight teams might be involved. I'm prepared for anybody. Like you threw Detroit out. I don't think that's, that's crazy.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  I think they should be.

• 1:11:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it's.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  The Toronto Lakers lurking around. They're still lurking. Loiterers, the Toronto Loiterers.

• 1:12:04Bill Simmons?

  Zach, I wish you cared about the draft because the Ace Bailey saga is the other really fun thing.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  I care. I've been on the phone for the, all of the last two days.

• 1:12:11Bill Simmons?

  Bailey saga, this has not really happened since like Amar'e Stoudemire 20 years ago where somebody's just refusing to work out for teams.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. What, what level of no show are we talking about? Are the restaurant reservations made? And he is just like not going on the trip and they have to cancel everything? Like how far in the process is he getting?

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Daryl Morey's just sitting by himself at a table.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Sir, it's been, it's been two hours. I don't think your party's, I don't think your party's showing up.

• 1:12:36Bill Simmons?

  I think Darryl loves this. This is like, oh, this is, you're challenging me to draft you now? I'm gonna do this. You think I'm afraid? You think you're scaring me, Spilly? I, listen, it seems like he has a pretty shaky

• 1:12:51Bill Simmons?

  representation around him. I'll say that. Seems to be the word in the street. They're doing things a little unconventionally, maybe in the wrong way. Conspiracy Bill's wondering if he's just trying to push himself to Brooklyn at number eight.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  I don't think he's getting there.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Number eight?

• 1:13:05Bill Simmons?

  You don't think he's getting there?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  I don't think he's, I don't think, no, you know what? Look, I can spirit, there's a lot of-

• 1:13:10Bill Simmons?

  Kostadomar fell to nine.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Conspiracy Bill should be just having a blast with the Ace Bailey thing. Cause there's like seven different Ace Bailey conspiracies floating around the league and the top 10 teams in the draft. And my net conclusion to putting all the conspiracy theories together and meshing them into a ball is, I don't think you would get to eight, but maybe I wouldn't be surprised.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would guess.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Someone in that Pelicans Wizards-

• 1:13:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like the Wizards have to take him. They just have to. But, you know, on the other hand, that's the kind of selection that has ruined the Wizards slash Bullets for the last 40 plus years. But it's interesting. It's, it's a really fun, old school, completely hit or completely miss prospect where you could see all these different scenarios for it. But yeah, that's been a talk of the league as well. And it'll also be interesting to see if, I think people are expecting maybe Philly will move backwards a spot or two spots.

• 1:14:07Bill Simmons?

  To try to pick up some extra assets, dump a contract. You know, that Utah, the, who knows with this stuff on, on social media, what's true and not true. But that whole moving back two spots with Utah, giving them Paul George.

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  Utah moves up two spots. I just don't know why Utah would want to even move up two spots.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  So there's the thing. If Ace Bailey is now, has gone from number three pick to where is he gonna get picked? What is you, and so now the whole three to eight is just shuffle it up. You know, some guys will go higher. I think Trey Johnson's probably climbed a little higher or whatever, but like,

• 1:14:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  If I'm Utah, why am I-

• 1:14:44Bill Simmons?

  Look at Zach knowing the draft this year. Jesus.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, look at that. If it's-

• 1:14:47Bill Simmons?

  Who are you?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  If it's unpredictable. If it's unpredictable and I don't have a grip on it as a GM, why am I paying a premium to move up if I don't know if the guy I'm paying a premium for might? Maybe I do it on the clock. I, you know, it could just be an on the clock kind of thing and that it has to happen that way.

• 1:15:04Bill Simmons?

  You're doing it if you love edge cone. That's the thing. If you feel like we have to leapfrog somebody to get edge cone, that's when you would do it. But I still think three years of Paul George. Also, putting Paul George in Utah.

• 1:15:18Bill Simmons?

  What if he doesn't want to go?

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Do you think he would?

• 1:15:21Bill Simmons?

  That way? Well.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  I'm kidding. How many times can you relocate the podcast piece studios? It's a, it's like two U halls. Like.

• 1:15:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. We'll see. We'll see what happens. All right. Quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:16:15Bill Simmons?

  All right, fellas. Prediction for game seven. Do you have one yet? OK, see by a ladder or by a little or something else?

• 1:16:22Bill Simmons?

  What do you got, Rob?

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  OKC by a little.

• 1:16:25Bill Simmons?

  I'm going to go OKC rock fight.

• 1:16:29Bill Simmons?

  Close game for three plus quarters and then maybe they pull away and win by the seven to nine range. Zach?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  OKC's up two with 10 seconds to go. Halliburton takes a jump shot and the screen goes to black like the ending of The Sopranos. And I don't know what happens for like the rest of our lives. Just I don't like another, some cataclysmic event occurs and the finals are over.

• 1:16:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, I'll tell you this. If Indiana wins game seven. It will be the first team mentioned when we talk about like the Hickory High type craziest sports movie type teams that actually won the NBA title.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  I'm telling you right now, if they win game seven, I'm drinking on the podcast after the game. I will do the podcast with a drink because it'll just be such an incredible start to finish run of crazy finishes and you counted us out and shots that go up to the ceiling and go in. I'm drinking on the podcast if they win.

• 1:17:26Bill Simmons?

  Indiana wins and then they go, ratings were the lowest it's ever been for a game seven. And we have to do that whole thing. It's like, yeah, this was a fucking awesome basketball series. Fuck everybody.

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  I think they, if they do win, they would be probably like the team of my lifetime. To be honest with you, in terms of the run that they've been on, like I, there's nothing like it. There is, there is no comparison point.

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  It only happens in baseball. We see it happen in baseball where an offense can just get hot for, you know, three weeks and one pitcher is pitching well. And they're like, oh my God, we just won the world series. Like the 2013 Red Sox were a little bit like that.

• 1:18:02Bill Simmons?

  It never happens in basketball.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Nope. I didn't make a real prediction. I guess you guys did, so I should make one. I'll just, I'll cop out and go, OKC wins a very close game. That would, that seems to be the most likely of many, many different scenarios. But I'm officially at the stage where like, almost nothing would surprise me about this series. Nothing, no outcome.

• 1:18:21Bill Simmons?

  Do you like my revised final schedule of going Thursday, Saturday, three days off, game three, Tuesday, game four, Thursday.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  You had three days off in there somewhere?

• 1:18:34Bill Simmons?

  Just between game two and game three for the travel.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  So Sunday, Monday, and then part of Tuesday off, and then you're playing Tuesday night.

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  No, Thursday, Saturday.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  And then we go Tuesday, Thursday. And then we just go Sunday, game five, Tuesday, game six, Thursday, game seven. Let's go.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Unless I'm wrong, that's only two days off between games two and three, not three. Sunday, Thursday, Saturday, and then Tuesday, so Sunday, Monday off.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  Right. What I'm hearing is this sounds a lot like your podcast schedule.

• 1:21:05Bill Simmons?

  I like cards for Rita. All right. Zach Lowe, Rob Mahoney, glad we finally did one of all three of us together. Thanks to Gahout and Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Sunday with another podcast. Zach, do you know your schedule yet or no?

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's just gonna happen.

• 1:21:20Bill Simmons?

  Your schedule's up in the air, plus TV's a mess with the prestige TV.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Well, we got group chat coming tomorrow morning. I'm gonna go second watch this game, and then we're going right back to it, right back to it with more takes.

• 1:21:31Bill Simmons?

  You're the best. Thanks to everybody for listening here and watching on YouTube, and we'll see you over the weekend.

• 1:21:51Bill Simmons?

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• 1:22:34Bill Simmons?

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