232: Why Men Won’t Open Up to Their Partners W/ Tom Stroud

Love Is Blind UK star ⁠Tom Stroud⁠ sets the record straight on his reality TV villain edit, including why Netflix made him reshoot the altar scene. He shares how therapy after the show led him to build ⁠Shoulder to Shoulder⁠, a men’s community tackling the male loneliness epidemic, and he and Sabrina get honest about men’s mental health, why so many men avoid therapy, and why shaming men for their feelings only pushes them further away. Tom also opens up about his father wound, losing his dad before they could reconcile, and what his relationship has taught him about conflict, anger, and emotional safety. Plus: why men need male friendships, red flags that look like green flags, scheduling sex in a busy relationship, and what women and men need to understand about each other. Come see me on tour! ⁠https://sabrinazohar.com/tour⁠Order Sabrina's book,⁠⁠⁠ "Why Am I Like This?"⁠⁠Take the new and improved dating quiz! ⁠⁠sabrinazohar.com/quiz⁠⁠If you’re ready to slow down, trust your instincts, and break your old dating patterns, the Healthy Relationship Foundations Course walks you through it step-by-step ⁠⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠⁠Product of the week! ⁠https://amzn.to/4v1eHW⁠jGet Ad free ⁠⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠⁠ Watch on Spotify. Spotify subscribers get fewer ads on my video. Want to work with Sabrina? ⁠⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠⁠ Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show ⁠⁠⁠HERE!⁠⁠⁠ Don't forget to follow ⁠⁠⁠Sabrina⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠The Sabrina Zohar Show⁠⁠⁠ on Instagram and ⁠⁠⁠Sabrina ⁠⁠⁠on TikTok! Video now available on ⁠⁠⁠YOUTUBE!⁠⁠⁠ Support the show by supporting our sponsors: Our listeners get a FREE MONTH of Primal Queen plus FOUR FREE GIFTS at ⁠https://primalqueen.com/SABRINA⁠ Thanks to Strawberry.me for sponsoring this video. Get matched with a professional career coach and get 50%off your first coaching session: ⁠https://www.strawberry.me/sabrina⁠ Chapters: 00:00 Love Is Blind UK Altar Truth 05:28 Reality TV Hate and Mental Health 11:08 Equal Partnership in Relationships 16:00 Fear of Rejection and People Pleasing 21:09 Why Men Won’t Go to Therapy 27:26 Male Loneliness Epidemic Explained 34:22 Father Wound and Unspoken Regret 39:15 Why Men Hide Their Emotions 43:19 How to Make Men Feel Emotionally Safe 48:59 Red Flags That Look Like Green Flags Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 0:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Reality TV might not always be the reality. And I think we see that in what people are struggling with these days. And I think specifically, men are going through it right now. And I am so excited today because I have a very good friend, Tom Stroud, who was on Love is Blind, who understands the lay of the land and who's also working with so many men in his new community, shoulder to shoulder. And I am so excited to welcome him to the show.

• 0:53Speaker 02

  Thank you, Sabrina.

• 0:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the fucking podcast.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Hey, I just asked you how you are. And I know how you are because I've spent the last week with you.

• 1:03Sabrina Zohar?

  We have been on book tour. So if you have, by the time you're watching this, if you haven't gotten my book, let this be the sign. But Tom, could you please introduce yourself to anyone who might not know who you are?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. I mean, I was on a show called Love is Blind UK, season one, OG series. That was about three years ago now, crazy.

• 1:22Sabrina Zohar?

  It's been that long?

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I know, it's mad. Season three's come out, so we shot it three years ago, came out two years ago. And since the show, my life has changed a lot. You know, my storyline on the show was, and I say storyline because there is quite a bit of editing involved in these shows.

• 1:37Sabrina Zohar?

  You got to get the villain in it, didn't you?

• 1:38Speaker 02

  I got a bit of villain, a bit of villain, I think it's fair to say. And my storyline was all about things like gender roles in relationships and how you're meant to show up as a man. And the kind of the narrative arc, which the producers focused on, was very much like Tom's a sort of 50/50 progressive guy. And Maria, my fiance at the time, was a very traditional Muslim woman. Incredibly polarizing. And I guess this is the thing about reality, right? Is that the further along those sort of series you go, the more polarizing the story's storylines become. It's kind of like social media. You get more of a reaction out of, you know, difficult moments between those couples. And it was difficult for me.

• 2:16Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm curious. I mean, this is a spoiler alert if you haven't watched the season. And if you have, come along the ride. Did saying no at the altar feel like courage or avoidance to you?

• 2:24Speaker 02

  That's a great question. I mean, so this was my main issue with the edit was that we'd both agreed it was going to be a no weeks before. But to create a good story, they were like this sort of very modern, yeah, progressive man's going to say no to the sort of poor Muslim girl ultimately. And that's hard. It was hard for both of us because it wasn't accurate. And I think Maria certainly felt that she'd been, you know, made out to be the victim in that storyline, which is really difficult for anyone. And I mean, she wasn't the victim, but it's how it played out.

• 2:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Did you guys talk after?

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 2:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, be really honest. After we shot it, we were on really good terms. But when the show started coming out, because of kind of a lot of what had been shown and the way that they'd shot it, she was, I guess understandably, like quite frustrated, angry at me. And, and I was also frustrated, not necessarily at her, but at the way it had been edited. And we still haven't reconciled.

• 3:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh shit. Okay, so the whole thing happens. You guys agreed to this, then you get to the altar and you're like, did she just say yes? Or do I like, what, this dynamic? And then that's it, you leave and you're like, okay, run off into the sunset. That's done.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:33Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's it. And then you didn't even see anything until a year later.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  A year later. So, but here's the thing, I mean, I don't mind talking about this now because I'm not sure that Netflix are my biggest fans. But.

• 3:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Tell me everything.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  But when we shot the scenes at the altar, you know, I gave a lot of words during my, my sort of my vows and all that kind of thing. And effectively said, you know, we've come to this decision together. We know it's not right. You know, said some lovely words about her family and her friends. And then we both sort of walked off together. And then Netflix made me reshoot it.

• 4:04Sabrina Zohar?

  I was going to say, what did they not show?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So they were like, can you come back, please? And use I statements. I believe we're not right together. I believe we need more time. And then when the edit came out, it looked like I'd jilted her at the altar.

• 4:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Honestly, I'd always wondered that because when I like, I, this is actually, there's a question I have. Is it predetermined? Like, do the couples actually get to go, hey, I don't think this is right? Or is it like, hey, guys, so we need you to stay till the end? Because sometimes I see them go to the altar and I'm like, there's no way you didn't know that this wasn't going to work out prior to getting here.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you know what? I mean, this is the one thing that I'll say to the credit of that show. I can't say it for all Netflix shows, but you have free will.

• 4:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Throughout that whole process. But let's be honest here. I mean, I think Maria and I felt it was going to be a no pretty early on. But we were like, well, let's go along for the ride. This is an incredible experience. You know, we don't just want to walk away from this. We knew it was going to be a no. Little did we know that, you know, that kind of is quite a boring storyline for me and Maria to be like, oh, it never really worked out, but you know, we're kind of cool. And that's okay with it. So they have to create a bit drum with it.

• 5:03Sabrina Zohar?

  What was the most fake thing about reality TV that people don't realize is not actually real?

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Gosh, I had genuinely had a really good experience with that. I've got to say that. And I think that the way that they look after the welfare of the cast members is incredible.

• 5:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  You know, and, and that's so important. I don't know about you guys in the States, but in the UK, we've had a couple of suicides through reality TV, you know? This is serious stuff. The faintness comes from them in the edit directing a narrative to allow it to suit them. And then that's frustrating because I know who I am and I know what my values are. And to see that play out differently on TV is really hard. I mean, I'm, I'm going to be honest with you. Like I, I had therapy after the show, quite a lot of therapy. Because it really hurt, you know? And there's one thing, being accountable for your actions. And another thing entirely, being misrepresented and getting a load of shit on social media for something that you didn't do.

• 5:58Sabrina Zohar?

  I was going to say, how did it feel when you got out after? And you had all of these people that you're like, suddenly you hate me, but yet you have no idea what the fuck I just went through.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  And I still get it now, subs. When we were doing the, the book tour launch, like it was a couple of people on Instagram. I was like, is that Tom from Love is Blind UK? I wouldn't listen to a word that he says. It's based off like one moment, three years ago. And I'm like, this is crazy. But that's kind of how social media works, you know?

• 6:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I do. And trust me, I've had to even, whether it be my own villain, like people that just don't like me because they've heard three seconds of something I said. And you're like, if only you knew. Or yeah, people have been like, what? And I've had to explain, I'm like, you don't know him personally. And then they're like, oh, thank you for explaining. You're right, I don't.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35Sabrina Zohar?

  And it feels like, truth be told, that's why I wanted to have you on today. Because I wanted to set the record straight.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 6:41Sabrina Zohar?

  I want people to know the real Tom, the person that is behind the edit, the person that is not this fucking villain that the TV tried to create you as. And like, listen, my heart goes out to Maria, of course. But it, there's two people that are involved in a dynamic and then an entire team behind it that doesn't get, let you get to create your own story. And I am curious, like, we talked a little bit off about this offline, but what happened when you got back? Once the edit was out and you're put out there into the world? Because the Tom that's now is not the Tom that was then. You were working in.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I was working in PR.

• 7:13Sabrina Zohar?

  You were working in PR. That's how, that's how you're helping with my tour. You're working with PR, you're doing all that. But what happened after? How did we get from where you were to where we are now? Because I'm excited for people to know what you're doing.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Ah, thank you. It's, it's actually a really amazing story and I'm really proud of myself for it. Because I did a lot of therapy after the show with a therapist that Netflix set me up with. And her name was Louise Whitnall.

• 7:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Was she good?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 7:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, fuck, yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, like.

• 7:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Shout out Louise.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  She is amazing. And she, after a few very, very intensive sessions, which were basically very immediate in the here and now around kind of qual of the trauma, I guess, that I'd experienced off the back of it. And I don't, I mean, you'll know this, it's not natural having millions of people looking at you every day. Like, it's just weird. It's intense. And after about five or six sessions, Louise was like, you seem like a man who really knows himself, who's maybe been to therapy before. He's able to interrogate his own behavior and also like, understand where this hurt is coming from. Because a lot of it was about, I guess, my ego and also just the desire to be liked. Because that's not how I felt as a kid, right? And she said to me, have you ever considered doing any work with other men? Like, and maybe supporting or helping other men or bringing them into this world of therapy or starting to understand themselves a bit better?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  And my response at the time was absolutely not. Like, I don't feel like I've got the minerals to do that. And then just something crazy happened where. A couple of weeks after we had that conversation, a clip from the show came out. And it was a clip about a journalist asked me, Tom, you've been described as having feminine traits. How does that make you feel? And it was intended to get a rise out of me. But my response to that was, I mean, I use inverted commas, my feminine traits, things like, yeah, having compassion, empathy, being able to communicate my needs, you know, showing that I care for other people, being tactile and not thinking it's like unmasculine. They're the traits that I'm the most proud of as a man.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  And this clip kind of went viral and a guy called Dan Shrigley got sent it, slid into my DMs.

• 9:13Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, he did.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Was like, it was my DMs were dusty as fuck. Do you know what I mean? I saw it immediately. And he was like, this really resonates with me. Would you like to go and grab a coffee? And so we went for a coffee and the rest is history.

• 9:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I love that. I wish more people understood, as somebody who, both of us have put ourselves out there, especially when you're on a show or you're just creating content, the world doesn't understand how vulnerable and hard that is and the vulnerability hangover that you can have after you put your shit and your dick on the table and you are allowing other people to rip you apart. And it's, it's something that I've been wanting and itching to talk about more, not from a place of like, feel bad for us. Like, oh my God, poor thing, people are mean to them on the internet. It's like, we show up every day helping people, doing things that are vulnerable, sharing stories and intimate moments and details of life so that people feel less alone, to have someone just shit on it or put their negativity. First of all, you would never fucking say that to my face.

• 10:09Sabrina Zohar?

  If you saw me in person, you would never be like, oh, by the way, like, I can't stand the way you speak and you speak too fast and like, you've been through too much pain. Because my response to you would be, go fuck yourself and maybe learn some goddamn manners. Instead, it's, mm, yeah, okay, but I wish people understood the mental health that creators have to go through or anybody that's on a show or puts themselves out there when you have constant people judging you for three seconds of the life that they have no idea that you've lived. And then all of a sudden coming out the other side and being like, well, but I'm the judge, juror and executioner. And leaving things on the internet, they're so painful that they attack every, it's funny, I told Ryan today, I said, I'm really, you know, I've been on this book tour and it's been challenging every core belief I've ever had, that am I good enough? Am I worthy? And you can have a hundred people say you are, and then there's the one.

• 10:54Sabrina Zohar?

  There's the one that has to hate the way you talk or hate who you are or hate everything about you. And I laughed, I said, I don't build that community. I don't have anyone in my community personally that would ever speak to someone like that because they fucking know better, because they would get kicked out of the community. But more so, I said, man, I'm really challenging my little. And Ryan reframed, he goes, no, I think you're challenging your big. And he was like, I think you're actually challenging the part of you that needs to be there for the adult, the kid for you, because that's the part that's wavering right now. The kid knows all of this, but the adult version of us now has to come out. And I think it's such a beautiful thing that you were able to turn so much bullshit and negativity and all of this into an empowering space. Because I wanted to ask, we've talked about what the internet got wrong about you, but what do you think they got right about you?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  I think there were some accurate things around my values and particularly my views around relationships and potentially slightly misinterpreted, but I still believe passionately that relationships are about equity and about two partners that come together and we both provide value in our own way. It doesn't need to be financially, but you need to have two equals in a relationship, two people that are prepared to create value together. Some days I'm at 90% and my partner's at 10%, but some days it's the other way around. You know? And that's how I've always been brought up to believe and I still believe now. So that was, that was wonderful, you know? And the interesting thing about doing a show like that is it really makes you interrogate. You know, you talk about this in your book, your core beliefs, and that is still a core belief of mine.

• 12:22Sabrina Zohar?

  And when did you meet your partner? How long after the show?

• 12:25Speaker 02

  So I met Sonia 14 months ago. So it was about a year after the show.

• 12:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. So yeah, I was gonna say it was after you were on the show the first time. And I'm curious, like, what did you learn from this relationship that you didn't have going into the show?

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Oh my God. I mean, so many things. It's, I mean, this in the best way possible, this relationship is the most challenging relationship I've ever had. And it's not because of how she shows up, it's because of what it's forced me to realize about myself. And it is so difficult, like the conflict is the number one thing that we struggle with. Because for me, as someone whose dad wasn't around as a kid, you know, who thought that anger was just something which she just ran away from, heard a lot of shame around showing anger. When she gets mad at me, I'm like, we're breaking up, you know? And it's like, and she's like, I just got mad at you. And 10 minutes later, she's absolutely fine. And it sits for me for days.

• 13:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  And it's taken me so much time to understand that that's not like, alarm bells shouldn't be ringing with that, she's just expressing a need. Sometimes she doesn't express a need very well, and that's something that she's working on too. But yeah, it's the most challenging and most beautiful relationship I've ever been in.

• 13:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Relationships, especially healthy ones, will be a mirror in a way that you never imagined possible. Even to this day, am I super secure in my relationship a thousand percent? But Ryan can say something, I'm like, oh, he hates me.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:42Sabrina Zohar?

  And he'll look at me, he's like, oh my God, I don't hate you. And sometimes, like you said, like, sometimes there are moments where even with me, like, I'll give you an example, last night, I'm on my like, oh my God, I'm scared and I'm nervous and what am I doing? And I'm scared and I'm nervous. And it's like, I'm also conscious and aware that I feel insecure, I feel like there's something wrong with me and that no one's gonna love me. So then when my partner just goes, yeah, and you're like, oh wow, he exhaled really loud just now. Or then I'll be like, do you want some alone time? And he's like, no, I'm fine. I just went to grab something. I'm like, okay, well, you've been giving me one word answers this whole time. And he's like, no, babe, I'm fine. It's just, we've had a long day. And I literally had to stop myself and talk to myself and go, hey, Sam, you know, he's allowed to do that, right? He's allowed to go, I'm really tired right now and no, I don't want to deal with this. And then there are moments where I'll go, hey, I'm not asking you to fix this, but man,

• 14:27Sabrina Zohar?

  could you just listen and validate the emotion that I'm having? Could you hug me and just tell me, even if you don't know everything's gonna be okay, that you're there no matter what? And that is the point of this, because otherwise, my knee jerk reaction would always be into like, oh, well, you hate me and you don't like me and I need this and I need this and why aren't you reassuring me? Instead, it's like finding that dance of going, okay, well, maybe if I sit with this for five minutes and my partner, if it still annoys me, I can talk to them about it. But if not, and it's incredible, if you haven't gotten why am I like this, now you'll see why. It's incredible to realize that how much of our childhood has created these narratives and core beliefs. And it's not in a negative of like, oh, we have to villainize our parents. But like you just said, you're like, my dad growing up did this, so I equated this.

• 15:09Sabrina Zohar?

  And now you get to have a corrective experience with your partner to push through it and be like, oh shit, that's not what this means.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Oh my God. And you know what this desire to be liked or validated? This isn't just about romantic relationships. Again, sorry to plug your book, but it's all of, it's about every type of relationship, including your relationship with yourself. And like, we had a moment today where there was a mix up with one of the, one of the addresses that you were gonna go to, to shoot some content. And I was like, I'm gonna need to take responsibility for that. And immediately, my little childlike self went to, oh my God, Sabrina's gonna dump me. Like, she's not gonna like me anymore. You know? Because that was, when I was younger, I was so vigilant, because every little thing I did, right, I'm like, that means my, I did that, that's bad, that's the reason my dad's not here. And so I was like, God, I need to give myself a talking to, because I'm like, right, we have a great relationship, I adore you, you know, this week's been amazing. One little moment doesn't change that.

• 15:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Do you wanna know the funny thing?

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Go on.

• 16:01Sabrina Zohar?

  On the other side of it, I got upset and then I went in the car and I went, oh God, no, I should, I should tell him, I'm so sorry, I shouldn't have yelled at him. And Ryan's like, you're allowed to be upset.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  You're allowed to.

• 16:10Sabrina Zohar?

  And so isn't that, look at both sides of the coin.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  This is why communication works. It's, you know, it's a shame we've had to have the conversation on the podcast, it's been a busy day, but I adore you.

• 16:19Sabrina Zohar?

  And I adore you.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 16:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Life happens. And that's the thing about having human experiences, is that you're allowed to have someone and go, oh, okay, they're allowed to be mad, they're allowed to be angry, it doesn't mean I'm a terrible person. And that's where I see a lot too, because like, we're gonna get into so much more. But I see so much about this personalization of everything is like, oh, it's me, it's me, it's me, it's me. And it's like, yeah, sometimes we do have to take ownership and go, yeah, okay, I fucked up, right? Like, that is me. And other times we have to say, you know what, but that person's going through something, that person's having an experience. Like, even when I'll get like attacked on the internet, I have to remember like, Sab, they don't know you, this can't be about you, you triggered something in them, or an experience happened, they had a shitty day, and it's okay for that to happen. But how often it happens is, becomes the issue and then the, you know, that's where, if you and I were having this every other day, we'd be like, hey, maybe we shouldn't be friends.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 17:07Sabrina Zohar?

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• 17:50Sabrina Zohar?

  working together for energy, healthy blood cells, cognitive function, immune health, and muscle recovery. Baby, for a limited time only, our listeners are getting a free month, yes, you heard that right, a free month of Primal Queen, plus four free gifts at primalqueen.com/sabrina. That's primalqueen.com/sabrina to get a free month and four free gifts today. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show, The Sabrina Zohar Show, and let them know we sent you.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. Burst the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 18:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so I wanted to ask, so now that you're in this community, right? So you went through this experience, you learned so much about yourself. Could you share a little bit more about what you're doing with men? Because I think more than ever, and I'd be curious your thoughts on this. I think more than ever, we're seeing this polarization. We're talking heterosexual norms here. That's a basis of it, but we can also include the gay community and the queer community into this. But we see this like, men are trash and men eat shit and all of this. And I will read you some of the audience questions that we got because I think it's showcasing a really big issue. But what have you been seeing now, working with men and being in this community? What are you seeing about men and the loneliness and what they're going through in their mental health?

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Okay, big question. I mean, we have in Charlotte, Charlotte, we have 2,100 members at the moment. You know, we're doing 30 events a month, like bringing together men. Sometimes we have hundreds of guys that will show up to our events, you know? And there are a couple of big trends. So, so the first one is, and your audience will be familiar with this. I'm gonna start with a bit of history, like feminism has been incredible for women because it's, we're not at parity yet, but women don't need men in the same way that they used to. You don't need bank accounts, you don't need a roof over your head. Women have always been spectacular at being able to connect with each other emotionally and express themselves. Massive generalization. And what I've seen more and more and more is this idea that like, men are just kind of stuck.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  They're like, well, so if I'm not needed for those very traditional, sort of almost patriarchal things, you know, like, you know, stepping up and paying for my wife's hairdo or whatever, like, what am I needed for now? And, and so, you know, if men that are slightly more progressive will often be good at catering for a woman's emotional needs, or even their social needs, but there are a lot of men that are still stuck in this kind of idea from two generations ago, where they're like, that's my role and that's all I need to do. And as long as I do that, I'm a good husband.

• 20:50Sabrina Zohar?

  And they were probably taught that somewhere along the way.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Exactly. But, and, and women rightly so, demanding more from men now. You know, they want men who are able to say how they feel and hold space for them and make them feel secure. And I just think we, society's expected a lot of change very quickly with men. And I, I think it's going to take a little bit of time to catch up. But the whole ethos of the community is creating a space where men can be vulnerable, where men can share some really deep stuff with other men and almost often reduce the burden on their partners. Because this is something we see time and time again. Our main referral route for the community, it's not our marketing, it's wives, it's girlfriends.

• 21:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And that was the one thing you told me, what, you have 70% of men roughly are in relationships and 30 are single. And I think that is the biggest issue. I'm curious, well, actually, no, you just answered it. I'm not actually that curious because you just said the reason. And I think that's why so many women are so frustrated is because we see these men that are incredible. Like, I don't think we need to villainize everybody. I think people, listen, are people assholes? Of course, right? Like, that's not it, then I'm not telling you anything you don't know. But I think that it's, it feels so difficult. And that was a lot of the questions I got is like, I don't understand, why won't men just go and do this work? Why won't they just go and work on themselves? What do you see being the reason that they just won't do the work on themselves to get into the relationship? That would actually help them more than hurt them?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  What is the work? The work is different for different men, you know? And I think, I mean, I have a perspective around traditional therapeutic practices. You know, this idea of saying one on one, like we are right now, normally with female therapists, 75% of therapists are women. And being expected as a man to immediately talk about some really vulnerable stuff. Talk about the fact that, you know, I struggle to maintain an erection with my partner, or my dad died last week and I feel completely lost. And women are incredible, I think, at volunteering this information because they know that the way it's going to be received will be this beautiful groundswell of support. Men, not so much. And, and I think it's okay to acknowledge that.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  The environment that we've created is very different to a clinical setting, you know? It's peer to peer. It's basically, in very simple terms, you come with a problem and another guy in the community would have experienced that same thing. And you can just connect about it together. And when we set this thing up, I mean, I didn't know much about this sort of men's landscape at the time. There's nothing like it out there. And I'm not saying that in a salesy way, but I'm either saying, you know, support for men, when we think about mental health support in particular, it's either for men that are very low EBIT, and that'll be a crisis point, and there are resources out there for those men. Or there'll be super evolved men that, and you'll get this kind of like spiritual, like barley, eat bananas for a week in a jungle somewhere. What's for the middle 80%?

• 23:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Or I see a lot of the like, this is gonna be so rude to say, but like cuck energy.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Where it's just like very, where you're like, this isn't, and not toxic masculinity, but this feels very too woo and into the emotions and the feeling. You're like, I don't necessarily think that men really want to talk in the way and the verbiage that women do.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  I know, I know, I agree.

• 23:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Because I think we've over-therapized. I do, I genuinely believe. Now, Lord knows, I love therapy and I, please know, I want everyone to find what works for them. Whether that be a coach or a community or a group, it doesn't matter. Just like, find other people you could speak to. But I think we've tried so hard to fit the like, you know, and you're really triggering right now? And this doesn't feel like you're taking any ownership and accountability. And after a while, you're like, I shut off, I don't really want to hear that.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Do you see that often with the men in your group?

• 24:20Speaker 02

  I think it's a really interesting point. And, I mean, I'd almost extend that point. A lot of the feedback that you got when you asked your audience for the questions was around like, well, why aren't men stepping up? Why aren't men talking about this stuff more? The language that is used around a lot of these really kind of difficult, like areas to interrogate in your own mental health, for example, it's just not relevant to men.

• 24:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm gonna read you this question because I wanted to hear your reaction just straight up. I had asked the audience about like the male loneliness epidemic, and we've been hearing a lot about it. And someone said, I want to hear what you hear, what you hear with this.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:55Sabrina Zohar?

  They're lonely because they take no accountability and are allergic to the word therapy.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  But that's it, right? Let, let us have it out. If I was to show that to 2,000 of the men in my community, right? It's just, what is that gonna do? It's gonna vilify them. It's gonna push them further down. I get asked to talk about things like the Cornell 7 stuff, right? And my approach to it, my perspective, and I want to get this right, is that firstly, violence of any kind is absolutely abhorrent. I think violence is the most unevolved, unattractive behavior that you can take as a man. But I'm never gonna make a video about it. Because all I do, if I'm gonna make a video condemning men that are, you know, acting in that way is, I'm gonna alienate the ones that are most likely to be the perpetrators. And they're gonna turn off the stuff that I put out. And the guys that aren't gonna be the perpetrators, the supporters, they're just gonna be like, well, yeah, we know.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  So, and I get asked to put out this stuff all the time. And I'm like, no, the solution isn't to fucking fuel the content ecosystem on social media. It's to go out into the real world. It's to literally have these conversations because that's how you change someone's brain.

• 26:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, it's to have it at your community events and talking about like, we don't do this, we don't behave like this. It's the same as if I were to go and like really give it to like my anxious folk where I'm like, you don't want to hear this. You're not, if you're so into the like sparkle, sparkle, like man needs to pay for everything and like, I get my hair and makeup done and so you need to do all of this and you owe me this and this entitlement. And arrogance of like, well, I'm the main character, baby, you ain't the main character in anybody else's movie. You're the only main character in yours. If I do that, I have the people that are like, yes, I agree. And then I'm gonna alienate the people that legitimately want and need to hear this. Now, set the record straight, what happened isn't okay. What, that we know. And we can have different conversations about how do you actually help people without it just being?

• 26:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Because I think what people forget, especially specifically about the situation, the Cornell 7, is a good portion of the content you're seeing is for fucking views. It's so that they can get people to be like, look how cool, look, see, I condemned it and I spoke out about it. But where you make the most progress is when you're having real conversations and allowing real people to connect. And I wish that women understood, when you come at men like that, what you're doing is this highfalutin, well, like, I'm in therapy and I do the work. I had that once, I did a clip on avoidance, saying, I genuinely, my heart goes out to avoidance, that struggle to receive love, that, right? I didn't say that like, it's okay to treat people poorly. I'm saying I can have empathy for that. And there was the part of the, of the audience that was like, I, you know, thank you for holding the space and the compassion.

• 27:28Sabrina Zohar?

  I think like everyone's struggling and I think that's valid. And then there was the other side of the people that think that they are so evolved and healed of like, well, I feel worse for the anxious person that they hurt and fuck them. And it's like, do you realize that you are perpetuating the same behavior? That, that, what do you think the avoidant person here is? Not safe, right? This isn't the place for me because all I'm doing is being attacked for having a really human experience. But yet I have to let you do everything that you want? And it's okay that you're screaming right now and having a temper tantrum? But we have to be okay with that? And I think that if people understood, you don't get men to change, to evolve and to grow by attacking them more. You try to understand, again, we're not talking about the Cornell 7 men anymore.

• 28:11Sabrina Zohar?

  We're gonna put that aside now and go back to the men that are actually trying to evolve and grow. But do you think, when you hear about this male, like the male epidemic, the loneliness epidemic, what do you think attributes to it? And then do you think it's valid or do you think it's an excuse?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Great question. I mean, I've had to learn a lot about the kind of, the, the history and the significant moments in which have kind of created this culture, right? That men feel a lot of fear or a lot of shame around admitting that they would like to connect with other men. And, and a lot of this stuff, when we really break it down, it comes down to, A couple of big things. So the first one, weirdly, American audience will understand this, war, right? So there is this, since the First World War, there's been this culture for a lot of men where it's like, right, to show emotion is weakness, because when you're on a battlefield, right, that's going to do you no good at all. The only strength that you can show is a physical strength and the fact that you can show you're resilient, right? And this has gone through generations and generations. Paired with that is this

• 29:11Speaker 02

  idea that to be tactile with another man, or to show vulnerability is homosexual, right? It's a massive thing. And that's why, you know, for generations, playground insults would be like gay, you know? And sadly, the world hasn't caught up with this sort of progressive mentality. So a lot of men, even when they don't realise it, they're stuck in these strange kind of loops where to show a bit of vulnerability to another man, to touch a man, even to kiss a man, is looked at as either gay or weak. And so that's the kind of context of what we're trying to deal with here. Couple that with the fact that, yeah, for a lot of men, they're sitting in this idea that like, to admit that they need something is embarrassing, right? And every single person that listens to your podcast that has a partner will identify with that. So imagine going from,

• 29:56Speaker 02

  with all this context, coming to a point where you are trying to encourage men to say, yeah, I want more friends. Like, it's a really, really big journey. And that's why we often attract men that have gone quite a long way through that journey, and dare I say it, are slightly more in tune with exactly what they need. It's why, you know, that alongside our values is we get this same type of man. Like, we never really kind of deviate from these men that are often very, very urban, work in creative industries or finance or tech, like they are, I don't want to use the term evolved men, because that sort of demonises men that maybe haven't done that work. But what I would love to get to with it is just to come to a point where men can openly say, I think you're fucking awesome, bro, and I want to hang out with you.

• 30:41Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. I know Ryan's done that to before. He's like, I really like that guy, and I really want to hang out with him. And I'm like, you're having a little bromance right now? Like, even somebody that works with us, like, they were on the phone for two and a half hours, and I was like, hey, should I be worried? I was like, you guys have like, really been on, and like, I love it. I love nothing more. Because for me, my partner tapping into his emotions, you know who's also responsible for that? Me. And the reason I am also responsible for that is because I need to create a space where that's safe. I see this all the time, where it's like, the men aren't communicating and they're not open. But then when they do, you call them pussies, and little bitch, and the simp, right? Like, I've had somebody say that to me about Ryan, and I'm like, you wish you would have a fucking guy like him. You want to sit here and call him a simp because he's emotionally available, he's attuned, he supports me, he loves me

• 31:24Sabrina Zohar?

  for who I am. I'm like, you are just so used to having to earn it, and that men are this machismo, like toxic masculinity, fucking red pill ideology, but you don't actually understand that it's like, you would give anything to have a man see you in the way that you and my partner see your partners. But yet, it's easier to just deflect and say that than it is to go, I wish I had that too.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, Sabrina. So we're starting, because we're creating a lot of noise on social media and through press at the moment. We're getting a lot of these negative comments. A hundred percent of them are from men.

• 31:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  And 95% of our positive comments, when we go viral, when we get a big bit of press coverage, from women. And they're, because women understand the benefit of what I do more than men do. And you do, you get these, I'm going to call it out, you get these very repressed, isolated men who are sitting in their front rooms, probably just got off an eight hour session on Fortnite, angry that they can't find a partner. And what do they do? They lash out, and they blame things which are genuinely the solution. So we'll get men saying, oh, this is simp behaviour, this is gay. And I'm like, I promise you, right, this is what women want. They want us to connect with each other. They want us to be able to express ourselves to them. And it's crazy. But I don't think there's any change in those men.

• 32:39Sabrina Zohar?

  No. And it's, I mean, it's the same, like, when I have the two schools of thought. I'll do my single guy alerts. And there's some women that are so stoked, and they're like, I love this, thank you for doing this. And then I get the women that are really mad at me. Of like, well, why are you doing this? And why aren't you showcasing women? I'm like, so first of all, it's 80% women here. So I'm like, unless you're a lesbian, and most of you guys are not, this is a moot point. But it's also, I'm like, why, what's a shame is, we can't just be happy that these people exist. Instead, we have to villainise or put them down, instead of going, wow, that person's emotionally available, doing the work, whatever that looks like, right? Just trying to better themselves, even if that just means having different conversations. That person is doing all of this. And what's

• 33:20Sabrina Zohar?

  always shitty is, it's really hard for me, because when I get people that are like, well, this guy just broke up with me, or ghosted me, and he follows you. And it's like, that's where I have to be like, I, both of us can only do so much. You can only do so much, because there's actually, oh my God, I don't think she listens to it, but there's this one reality TV star, and Ryan and I always laugh about it, she follows me. And she's a fucking tyrant. Oh, my God, no. And she thinks that everything I say is, is that she's in the, in no wrong. I can't own that. That is someone's perception. And what we have to remember is, people can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves. And if somebody is limited, it's not about getting angry that they won't let you in, because I used to be that girl. It's about accepting people for who they are, and then

• 34:04Sabrina Zohar?

  determining if they have a part in your life, or if they don't deserve one.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:09Sabrina Zohar?

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• 34:51Sabrina Zohar?

  the decision, build a strategy, and actually follow through. The smartest move might be talking it through first. I know that's what helps me, babies. I don't just run into a decision, I gotta vet it out, I gotta talk about it, I gotta feel good about it, especially when you're making a career leap. So, go to strawberry.me/sabrina to get matched with a professional career coach and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's strawberry.me backslash Sabrina.

• 35:24Speaker 00

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• 35:52Sabrina Zohar?

  If you died tomorrow, what would you regret not saying?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, where is that question? It's been a long week.

• 35:58Sabrina Zohar?

  It's been a long week, so let's go for the goddamn jugular.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  What would I regret not saying? Jesus Christ.

• 36:05Sabrina Zohar?

  And maybe it's to your male community. Maybe it's to the men out there. Like, what do you think they need to hear?

• 36:09Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 36:11Sabrina Zohar?

  That maybe no one is saying.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  I mean, I have a personal one, which is, my dad passed away two summers ago. And I spent my whole life seeking his validation, his approval, and I never got it. I mean, there was a chance that we had to reconcile about three months before he died, where his sister expressed a desire from him to basically see his kids. And I hadn't seen him since I was 14, so it was, you know, a good, a long time, 25 years. And I was like, absolutely no way, I'm not going to see him. Like, why would I? And then I changed my mind, and I thought, I want to live a life of forgiveness and understanding, you know, not one of anger. And so I said to him, yeah, we'd like to come and see you.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  And we booked a card to go and see him that morning. And that morning, we got another call, and he changed his mind. And that was my shot, or rather, his shot. And my dad had five people at his funeral, four of them were the kids that he never knew. So, yeah, to go back to your question, sorry, that was a bit of a tangent, but I just see this all the time, that men who live lives where they're very closed off, where they live with a lot of shame, where they're not able to, he really wanted to reconcile with his kids, but he couldn't find the words or the tools to admit it. He thought it was weak. The world that I want to create is one where men are able to own up to mistakes they've made, you know? And so I never want what my dad went through, because I can come at

• 37:42Speaker 02

  this from a place of understanding now, to happen to other men, you know? I want men to be able to willingly say to their sons, their friends, you know, their bosses, like, hey, you know, I think you're great, or I love ye, or I'm sorry I fucked up, here's what I'm going to do differently. That is my desire.

• 37:59Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm getting emotional as you're talking, because I have been waiting for the day for my dad to die. And I keep saying I'm not going to care. And as you're talking, I was thinking about, what would I do if I got that call? And I know it's never coming. Now, can't say never, right? But I know that there's a pretty slim chance. Or if he did, it would be that exact same thing, that he'd go, actually, never mind. Or it would be, well, I just needed to get this off my chest so that I can move on. And it's interesting, because when my dad's brother passed away, they didn't speak for like, 20 years. And my dad was so flippant about it. He was just like, ah, yeah, he called me in the hospital. Oh, rest in peace to his soul. And I was like, you didn't? He was like, ah, yeah, well,

• 38:41Sabrina Zohar?

  you know, he said he was sorry, and yeah, we had a moment, but yeah, he's gone now. And it, what made me sad was exactly what you're describing. It was like, wow, you can't even allow yourself to feel the weight of that. And the thought that one day he's going to go and I might never speak to him again. Now, could I? What's the point? Right? Sometimes you really do have to look and say, this would be for me, not for him. And for somebody that's never going to take ownership and Academy are just like, okay, so what to literally just say, all right, thanks so much, Pat. I don't know what I'm saying thank you for, but like, thanks for what you've done. I appreciate it. This has been, it's been real. It's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun. Or is it just accepting people for who they are and just letting the chips fall where they may? How do you, like, if you actually look in hindsight, did you want that moment? Or are you okay now that you didn't get it?

• 39:25Speaker 02

  I was desperate for it the whole of my childhood and in my teenage years. But when I look back on it now, no, that's, you know, you talk about it all the time. It's like these different versions of yourself. That's what my little wanted. Been the most, sadly, the most liberating experience of my life, my dad dying. Cause I don't have his specter hanging over me, you know, constantly seeking his validation or the validation of other people. It changed my life, my dad dying and in the most horrific way possible, but.

• 39:54Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't want my dad to die because I hate him. I want him to die. So his reign of terror ends.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's how I felt too.

• 39:59Sabrina Zohar?

  That just, the moment of being like, wow, so you won't triangulate us anymore? And you're not going to talk shit? And you're not going to, you're not going to live rent free in my head all the time. And I know that it will be a mixed bag of emotions. I'm not stupid to believe that. But I'm hoping that I can be on the other side with you in that same way of like, no, no, this, this is what needed, this is how it needed to play out. Because now we're adults and we get to make choices that align with who we're becoming and not just the bullshit that we were taught.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean, my one thing is with all this work that I'm doing now, and I would have just liked to have known that he was proud of me, you know? And which is like pretty big.

• 40:41Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm proud of you.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 40:42Sabrina Zohar?

  I know. It's not even close to this.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  No, it's, it means a lot. It means a lot.

• 40:45Sabrina Zohar?

  But I understand that, right? It's like, that's the big bad wolf. That's the big shadow that always takes up space that you're like, okay, well, I have to learn to be okay with this. It's, I thank you for sharing this because I think that a lot of people forget that men are going through emotions and things and they just, some of them don't know how to express this. Especially to your point of like, when you have the fathers that were really strict and it was very much on how strong can you be without, like, because emotions are weak, right? Don't be a little girl. Don't come on, come on, man up. But then girls, we're also shamed for having them of like, oh, here she goes again, having this. There really is no winning. And I actually don't even think that even for women, we're necessarily in a time where it feels safe to express ourselves without then getting

• 41:28Sabrina Zohar?

  attacked or getting this. Or like even today, somebody had commented on my Jay Shetty episode, like, she says a lot of valuable information and it's good, but she very clearly comes from a place of pain. And it's like, are you fucking with me right now? So I'm not allowed to be honest and real because, oh, because you're right, I have to come from this place of like, no, I've never experienced pain. I just know all of this. It doesn't feel like it's safe, no matter what the gender is right now, to authentically be yourself. But yet that's what we're craving more than anything.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  But I mean, isn't coming from pain like more of a redeeming quality, you know? It's, I mean, one of my toxic beliefs, said Bruna, is that I am incredibly resilient. And that's because I've had a lot of shit in my life.

• 42:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Right?

• 42:07Speaker 02

  You know, and I know people, I'm naming no names, who have come from very, very secure, sheltered upbringings. The minute the shit hits the fan that I don't know how to deal with this. So it's like, my mom always says, and it's beautiful. She says, your trauma is your greatest gift. And I agree with that wholeheartedly.

• 42:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I love that. Mom is a legend, isn't she?

• 42:24Speaker 02

  She's a fucking legend. I love her dearly.

• 42:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Love.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Very flawed, just like your mom, you know?

• 42:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Humans.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:30Sabrina Zohar?

  But like, it's a beautiful place that you can get to, accepting them for who they are. That was interesting when we did the talk the other night, the second night, when somebody asked about their family and saying like, how do I handle this? Like, I spoke to my family, they didn't receive it well. And I think the underlying is like, it's okay to accept people for who they are and then manage your expectations along with it. Right? Like you did with your dad and I do with mine. But same with men, same with dealing. Like, I understand that you might be in a relationship with somebody and it's frustrating that they are not willing to go deeper. But then that's really on you then to go, does this work for me?

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 43:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Does this work? Like, if they're not willing to, right? Like, my partner, you willing to do this work in whatever capacity, right? I've told Ryan, I'm like, it doesn't matter how you do it. I just want you to do something. And he was going to men's groups. Realize that wasn't for him, the specific one that he went to. And so then he ended up transitioning to therapy, found a fabulous therapist that understands how his brain works beautifully. What matters is that the person has the willingness and the capacity to do that. And I feel like so many people in dating, whether it be women that want to play it cool and not show any emotions, right? So I've been seeing this rhetoric online of like, how to lose a guy? Show him you're interested and be honest and be transparent and it'll send him running. And I'm like, please stop this. Cause you're just perpetuating

• 43:47Sabrina Zohar?

  then the behavior of guys going, oh yeah, that's gross. No, I don't want that. Versus, how sexy is it to have someone that's like, hey, I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life. And here's what I need. And you're like.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Oh my God. I, you know, Sony and I have had to really get used to this stuff with each other. And because there's a thing about what you're saying, there's also a thing about how you say it. And we are very, very good at communicating what we need. But one of the things that I've learned, or one of the things I've communicated to her was like, she can be very reactive sometimes. And it's really hard for her to take a beat and be like, okay, I just saw you interact with this other woman and it made me feel uncomfortable. And this is the reason why it made me feel uncomfortable, because it relates to this core belief. And then I'm going to come to you and say that I felt uncomfortable about that. That rational thinking is so hard for a lot of people, you know? It's, it is really challenging. And that's what we're trying to work through at the moment, because I find it really threatening when it comes at me.

• 44:38Sabrina Zohar?

  In your community, especially with just men that you're dealing with, what do you think women need to know about allowing, like, because we hear this all the time, like, what do I need to do? How can I help? What do you think they need to hear?

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, great. Um, right. I want to talk about safety because people assume that safety is only something which women need, and it's not. It's different for men. We don't need to be protected. Some of us might do. Safety is about creating an environment where regardless of what your partner says, if he's a man, you're not gonna jump on it and react to it. It's like, you have to create an environment where you can say anything you want, even if I hurt your feelings. Because like, without that, that's what vulnerability is, right? It's, it's about being willing to share everything about yourself, even if it's something which makes you feel ashamed, you know? Like, I, terrible example, but like, I mistreated

• 45:32Speaker 02

  a girl in Bali when I was 18 and it's been sat with me ever since. You know, it's that sort of thing. And I don't want to tell that to my partner and that to be met with judgment. I want it to be met with curiosity. But this is, this is like the Premier League. This is elite level stuff. It's so hard. It is. And, and so I, I mean, I'm not great at it. I think a lot of men would find that very challenging. So it's kind of the building the blocks, you know?

• 45:56Sabrina Zohar?

  It's funny, I did a podcast years ago and it was a guy, he's like in the mental health space, but he's a little bit of the macho, like the, you could see where I was like, all right, like, you know, he's a very good looking man, like on paper, there's no reason this guy should be single, but you just can't seem to find a girl. And I said that, I said, you know, it's about someone making you feel safe. And he's like, oh, come on, what, what kind of bullshit is that? What do you mean, safe? And I was like, okay, let me explain what that means. I said an example, what you just said, instead of me jumping down your throat, I said, okay, what makes you feel uncomfortable about what I just said? I was like, do you know, and he like disarmed. He was like, oh, that's what you mean? And I was like, yeah. It's about me, what makes me feel safe is when somebody tries to understand me. Is when somebody doesn't like, when my partner tells me that

• 46:39Sabrina Zohar?

  he's feeling something, me going, okay, while I understand that, like, could you explain it a little bit more? Cause maybe I'm just not getting it. Or then what do you need from me in this moment? Right? Like the example I've been giving is like, when Ryan and I first met, he would freak out if I did not leave the house at 12 o'clock. It like would freak out. It was so uncomfortable for him. And I know that they'd be like, well, he's avoided. And it's like, okay, guru, you want to know how you actually work with somebody that has true avoidance? That's not a bad fucking person? Instead of it being my way or the highway, I was like, okay. And so then the next time we hung out, he said, do you want to stay over again? And I said, can I share something with you? It makes me feel like you're done with me, when at 12 o'clock, you need me out of the house. Can I understand what's going on with you? And he explained, he was like, football Sunday

• 47:22Sabrina Zohar?

  is my thing. And I feel like I'm losing myself if I don't just have the time. And I was like, okay, I think that's valid. I said, but you keep telling me you want to build this relationship with me. How are we going to bridge this gap if we don't spend more time together? He was like, okay, I see what you mean. I said, how about we cut the difference? How about we add an hour every single weekend we're together? And then eventually we'll get to a full weekend. And it worked so well. We added, and then I remember even the hour came and I was looking and he didn't say anything. And it was one o'clock and it just went by and all of a sudden, then at two o'clock, he was like, all right, it's been time. And I was like, okay, we reached our capacity and that's okay. Capacity and bandwidth needs to be built over time. Again, I'm not saying excuse bad behavior for the men that are like flippant or dismissive or like, we're not talking about those people. But what I

• 48:04Sabrina Zohar?

  am saying is if you're with somebody that maybe off the bat, they're not exactly what you want, that doesn't mean that you cannot create a safe space for them to maybe express that. And then you guys can figure this out and maybe figuring it out means you're not right for each other.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  I agree. The only thing I'd add to that.

• 48:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Please.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  The idea that doing this stuff, doing this work is cringe-worthy is one of the most damaging ideas that you can have as a couple. You have to be proactive about this. I wanted to talk about sex because sex, right? Sonia and I, I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, but we've been together for 14 months and we have very, very busy lives. And we'll have weeks where we'll see each other two or three times and every single night we're out and then we'll get back late. We don't have time to have sex. And so like, one of the discussions that we've had is like, we need to schedule time, intimacy time.

• 48:52Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm big on scheduling.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 48:53Sabrina Zohar?

  We do that because I'm like, life happens.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And she, and initially, she won't mind me saying this, she was like, that's so cringe. Like, what about spontaneity? And I was like, Sonia, if spontaneity means we're not having sex, then we probably need to schedule this. And that's what we're doing. She's moving in with me in a couple of weeks and we're like, right, Thursday night, five till 10, that is our intimacy time. We do nothing else. Even if we don't have sex, we're just gonna lie in bed and be naked together and just enjoy it. And it's those kind of things. There's a whole process in your book around this core belief stuff, which I love, which I did when we did our talk on Tuesday, because it's literally a process, which says like, this is what my reaction was, this is how it attaches to a core belief that I have from when I was a child, this is the rational version of that.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  I have to do stuff like that to help me through these situations.

• 49:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Sonia and Ryan are the same, because he said the same thing. He's like, but what about spontaneity? And I was like, we can incorporate that. I was like, but if spontaneity, to your point, I was like, then that means you're not gonna get laid, then that's something that you need to know. And we will schedule it, like, hey, I'm getting my period in a week, we don't do, like, it's just not our thing, and sometimes, but like, I'm in a cranky mood. And so we'll do, okay, make sure the day before and then the week after, we make sure that we, because my priority is also making sure that my relationship is still in a healthy space. If that's starting to feel too much, then I think we need to have a conversation about that. Also being that from what I've been told from a lot of intimacy doctors and things, there is a difference in sex drive. Almost every couple has it, that doesn't mean that there's a problem, but communicating through it is really important. Ready for a couple of questions?

• 50:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go.

• 50:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Doesn't have to be rapid fire, but.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  No, no, no, let's go.

• 50:30Sabrina Zohar?

  What's the biggest red flag in men that women think is a green flag?

• 50:33Speaker 02

  I think women will attach a lot of value towards a man's job, his job title. And, you know, I'm a fucking feminist, right? Like, I think there is a thing, there is a scenario whereby a man can earn 30 grand a year because he does incredible work for a charity or he's a special needs teacher, and that means he's aligned with his purpose. And I think having purpose and drive is far more important than what's on your pay slip at the end of the day.

• 50:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. Yeah, I was gonna say, for me, like, we know it's a texting, but also intensity, right? Like, people think that, like, oh, you know, and he knew off the first night he wanted to be with me and all this, it's like, that's not a green flag, by the way, that's actually a glaring red one. Now, I'm gonna flip the question. What is a red flag in women that men think is a green flag?

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Okay, great one. People misinterpret the idea of trauma dumping being a green flag, but I think often, for both genders, people are very aware that they can use that as a way to present themselves as very sort of inward looking and, you know, often that can be a little bit manipulative. Like, my view is that you should probably leave that stuff until a few dates, because otherwise you're like, oh my god, this person's amazing, both of our dads left us, and it creates this false sense of intimacy.

• 51:42Sabrina Zohar?

  You bond over trauma.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:45Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't wanna say trauma bond, because it's like, nah, it's not the clinical term, but you bond over shared trauma. And that's why I talked about the biggie breakup in the book, like, that was a very dangerous place with me and my ex, because exactly, your dad did that, my dad did that, and all of a sudden, you're like, wait a minute, what did we actually connect over? The fact that we're both sad kids? That's not a great thing. Okay, last question. Are men lonelier now than they've ever been?

• 52:07Speaker 02

  No. I believe that men are becoming more in tune with what they actually need, and that gives them a bigger sense of lack. Before, I felt like men would just paper over it or just accept it. I feel like one of the positive byproducts of having a society which is a lot more attuned to mental health, there are some negatives as well, is that we are more aware of this stuff now, and I think it's only gonna go in the right direction.

• 52:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Is there anything that you think women listening right now need to understand about men that maybe they just don't?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, we need other men. Men need other men. And if you are in a relationship with a man where you are his secretary, his therapist, his mother, you can change that by pushing him to create his own community and his own connection with other men. I promise you, it will be hugely beneficial to your relationship.

• 52:54Sabrina Zohar?

  And on the flip side, is there anything the men listening, because we've got some men in here.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 52:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Anything the men listening that they need to understand about women?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  That they're not your therapist or your mum.

• 53:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Valid.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:04Sabrina Zohar?

  They can't be. And you know what's interesting? I saw this recent study that the number one, what do you think the number one age bracket and gender that wants to get married currently is?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Okay, well, I, I think it's gonna be men, and I think it's probably men, younger men.

• 53:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, do you know why?

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Well, I know that marriage makes men a lot more happier than it does women.

• 53:27Sabrina Zohar?

  They're looking for a mom, because they don't know how to take care of themselves.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  Come on, boys.

• 53:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Because like, truly, like, 18 to 25, that Gen Z, that really young age, their mommies did everything, right? Like, look at right now, is people are so, everything's vibes and feelings, and like, well, I don't wanna work, so I just like, don't have to. And living at home until you're fucking 30, and again, like, no shade if you're doing that financially, because like, you're saving up for something, that's fine, but if you're just like, well, I just don't wanna work. Like, did you see somebody sued their parents because they said, I didn't wanna be brought into this world and I don't feel like working? Just, that's what I mean by, like, we've lost the plot. And I'm not saying that you have to kick your kids out at 18 and be like, I'm never gonna help you again, but I do think teaching your children how to be independent and autonomous, how to be disappointed, is the most beautiful thing you could do. And man, I wish more than anything that in schools, we stopped just teaching geometry

• 54:15Sabrina Zohar?

  and algebra, because half the time, we're not gonna fucking use it, and we started teaching emotional availability. How do you do your taxes? How do you do your fucking laundry? How do you cook a meal? How do you actually do things? Because my partner is the cook and the cleaner of the house, and I'm the one that's the breadwinner working all the time and doing all of this, and that works beautifully for us, because both of us were taught different things and it's not a one-size-fits-all.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that. And that is what I call an equitable relationship. You are both creating value in different ways and using that together.

• 54:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Don't forget, equitable can mean a lot more than just a man provides financially.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 54:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Ah, Tom, I know you and I could talk forever. Thank you for being on. Could you plug a little bit more about the community? Anyone's listening that would like to join, even if they're not in the UK, can they?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we have an online platform, but we are solely, like, so focused on in real life, because that's where the magic happens. It's called shoulder to shoulder, we've had loads of press, The Independent called us the anti-manosphere community, The Times called us the modern men's club fighting loneliness. It's amazing, we're only gonna grow it, so keep an eye out for it in the US, because we're gonna be conquering the US soon.

• 55:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, no, come and stay with us.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I'd love to.

• 55:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Yay. And if you're in the UK, because we do have our babes here, please tell all of your guy friends, anybody you know that you think could benefit, that this exists, because it's only as good as the word of mouth that spreads it around.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Thank you very much.

• 55:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks for being here.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Hey, you're a legend.

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  Yeah, I don't got this.

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