The Truth About the MAHA Movement — with Dr. Jessica Knurick

Scott speaks with Dr. Jessica Knurick, nutrition scientist and registered dietitian, about the rise of the Make America Healthy Again movement. They discuss why MAHA resonates with so many Americans, what it gets wrong about health and wellness, and how systems built for profit – from food to healthcare – are failing us. Jessica also explains the role of social media in spreading health misinformation, the promise of new science like mRNA technology, and why she believes “health is bipartisan.” Follow Jessica, @drjessicaknurick. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:01Speaker 02

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• 1:33Scott Galloway?

  Episode 364. 364 is the area code covering western Kentucky. 1964, Keanu Reeves, Stephen Colbert, Jeff Bezos, and that's right, the dog were all born. True story. We're starting a boy band, and before each concert, we're going to give everyone a Viagra, and we're calling the band One Erection.

• 1:54Scott Galloway?

  That's good.

• 1:57Scott Galloway?

  Go, go, go!

• 2:06Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 364th episode of the Prop G Pod. What's happening? I am officially back from scot-free August. I know. You're welcome. You're welcome. You've been deprived. You needed a little scot in your, you need a little rhythm. You need a little no mercy, no malice content. And here we are to deliver. Back in London, it's absolutely beautiful here. It feels sort of alien. You're supposed to get sunshine. You're supposed to go out. And by the way, I think we need to do something to convince young people that life is messy, difficult and really wonderful when it's experienced offline. In my no mercy, no malice column, last week, we did a post called Lonely Fans. I really like that title, Lonely Fans. Anyways, the Lonely Fans economy is booming.

• 2:51Scott Galloway?

  There's some, just some crazy stats about OnlyFans. It has a customer base, the population of the United States, about 350 million people. About 80, 85% of the creators are female, as you might imagine. I did the math and if you take out college grads and people in big cities, essentially, if you're in a smaller town or a smaller city and you pass an attractive woman between the ages of 18 and 25, there's like somewhere between a one in three and a one in five chance that she's on OnlyFans. And I don't think you can tell people they should have bodily autonomy around family planning and not tell them or not let them have bodily autonomy around how they decide to make money or not make money. So I don't, I don't have a moral issue or problem with it. I just wonder if it's essentially creating a new species of a social, a sexual male

• 3:36Scott Galloway?

  and that we're kind of planning our own extinction here, that people aren't finding places to, to connect, spend time and demonstrate greatness or demonstrate excellence. And if you talk to married couples who've been together longer than 30 years, 80% of them will say that one was more interested than the other in the beginning. And it was usually the man that was more interested in the woman, but over time. You know, we went to temple together and I liked the way he treated his parents. I hung out with him and found out he was really funny. We worked together and I was impressed by how good he was at what he did. And men have a chance to demonstrate excellence. And hopefully the woman decides to let that, you know, let that person into her much finer filter, if you will. But the problem is now, where do men demonstrate excellence? Or where do people get together to demonstrate excellence to one another?

• 4:21Scott Galloway?

  They're not going to work or into work. They're not going to religious institutions. That attendance is off 20 to 40% in the last 20 years. They're not going to third spaces. It's too expensive to go out and go to bars. It's just, we don't have an apprenticeship culture. It's where are young people supposed to, supposed to meet? Especially when they've decided, okay, it's just much easier to go home and watch Netflix or scroll on my phone and engage in sort of this bed rot. Anyways, I worry that we're turning into like an orca in an isolation tank. And what happens to orcas in isolation tanks? They go fucking crazy. And if you look at the natural state of being for dogs, and I am equating humans to dogs because they're mammals, they want to lie on top of each other.

• 5:04Scott Galloway?

  They want to be around each other, even if they're not romantic partners. They want to be in packs. We are pack animals. Where am I going with all of this? I think public policy needs to provide tax subsidies for third places, sports leagues, parks, Christ, even bars. To a certain extent, London does that. There's certain retail establishments or spaces that are only zoned for pubs. You can, you can buy a nice pub in a good part of town in London for a lot less than you could buy that real estate because it is zoned strictly for pubs. And I think pub culture and the chance for people to get together is a real key component of our society. And I wonder if we could do the same thing. Mandatory national service, figuring out, something I'm really encouraged by is that

• 5:46Scott Galloway?

  Tinder and dating apps are collapsing and in-person meetups and are, are starting to take off. Run clubs, sports leagues, dining clubs. And I think that's wonderful. I think we have to figure out a way to convince our kids and our species, if you will, once again, that life is hard, people are hard, people are messy, and that's what makes them so incredibly wonderful, that trying to develop a relationship. With an online character AI that is frictionless and easy, you end up in a frictionless, seamless, slippery slope towards loneliness and depression that all of us need to bump off of each other in person. And you'll get bruises, but you heal and it's stronger.

• 6:28Scott Galloway?

  And that full body contact, interaction with people is kind of what makes us human.

• 6:35Scott Galloway?

  Okay, moving on, in today's episode, we'd speak with Dr. Jessica Nurek, a nutrition scientist, registered dietitian, and nationally recognized science communicator, who works in nutrition, public health, and food policy. We discussed with Jessica the state of public health in America, how misinformation and the Maha movement are reshaping conversations about wellness and what real policy solutions could actually improve our health. Anyways, with that, here's our conversation with Dr. Jessica Nurek.

• 7:09Scott Galloway?

  Dr. Nurek, where does this podcast find you?

• 7:11Speaker 04

  Denver, Colorado.

• 7:13Scott Galloway?

  Let's bust into our first question, and it's a big one. What in your view is the state of public health in America?

• 7:20Speaker 04

  I would say the state of public health in America. So I think, and this is, I'm sure we'll talk about, you know, the Maha movement and how that's kind of like defined the conversation around public health right now. I got into this field about 15 years ago, and my main goal and my research focus was really chronic disease prevention, because even at that time, we, you could look around and look at the data, and it was very clear that we, you know, we had done a really wonderful job at tackling infectious disease and getting a public health infrastructure in place that undoubtedly impacted our health in wonderful ways, right?

• 8:00Speaker 04

  We saw a huge increase in life expectancy because of a lot of our public health infrastructure. But as we were living longer, we were also seeing higher rates of chronic disease. And so we were particularly lifestyle-related chronic diseases, which is what I started my research focus in. And so what I would say is, right now, what we're looking at is a situation where About half of Americans are living with at least one chronic health condition. And many Americans, thirty percent of Americans are living with, you know, more than one. So many, many different health chronic or chronic health conditions. And a lot of those are lifestyle related chronic diseases, right? And what that means is our diet, our, um, our physical activity, our behaviors are impacting our disease risk.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  Um, and so I think that what a lot of people in public health right now or, or in kind of this Maha movement right now are really getting right is that we do have um, a big issue with these lifestyle related chronic diseases. And so, so what I would say is when we're thinking about public health, public health are really these systems that are looking at the health of all Americans. And when you're looking at the health of all Americans, the health, uh, the health of Americans is struggling. It's not struggling, um, evenly across the board. What we see are pretty large health disparities in America. Um, and, and we can kind of talk about that, but a lot of our health issues are really disproportionately affecting particular groups in America. But we are seeing these big health, um, these, these big health issues in our country

• 9:28Speaker 04

  that I think that people are rightfully concerned about.

• 9:31Scott Galloway?

  You said that behaviors are important, but behaviors basically influence outcomes within the system. Talk about some of those systems in the U S that make bad behaviors even worse in terms of their outcomes.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, what I would say is individual behaviors. So we, we make individual choices within systems. And so those systems can either be set up for the most people to succeed or for the most people to fail. And what we have done in our country is really built systems, um, for the most people to fail from, from a health perspective. And there's a reason for that because we, um, have really built our systems for profitability. So if you think about, you know, if, if I'm working with you one on one on your health, some of the things that we're going to discuss, we're going to talk about your diet, right? What foods are you eating? Your physical activity, are you, are you moving around? Your healthcare access, your stress levels, your sleep levels. Those are all things we would work or work on, on an individual level.

• 10:25Speaker 04

  Where the, where, where, um, public health plays a role is there's systems that are impacting each of those. Kind of individual choices you're making. So just from the food system, for example, which is kind of my bread and butter. The the food system in our country by some estimates is about seventy percent ultra-processed food right now. And so we are heavily reliant in the United States on these prepackaged ultra-processed foods. And the reason for that is, well, there's a lot of reasons for that, but it's really because our food system has been built over the course of several decades. Um, for profitability. So from our agricultural system, which is where the food system starts, what we grow. To what we end up marketing and putting on shelves and marketing to people. Has all been kind of designed for maximum profitability, profitability and growth.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  So, you know, in the seventies, we kind of changed our agricultural policies to start really focusing in on these commodity crops. And so, um, Secretary of Agriculture at that time, he had this go big or go home. Um, kind of like model. And the idea was we wanted to start growing in in mass. Um, these commodity crops, mostly corn, wheat and soy, because we grow corn, wheat and soy very well in this country. And they're really good exports for us. And so we make a lot of money from them. Um, and so that's what started happening. And so we started kind of get coming away from small local farms. Um, small family-owned farms to large agribusiness and and that really dominates our agricultural system now.

• 11:50Speaker 04

  And so we subsidize that as a government too. So we we really incentivize farmers to be growing these commodity crops. And and that's kind of decimated local food systems. And so when we did that. You know, then we kind of came into the nineteen eighties and the era of deregulation under Reagan and then, you know, Clinton as well. Um, and and the idea was, you know, we're going to, you had the shareholder value movement, which was kind of like, let's maximize profitability and growth at the expense of all other values. And so one of those values is the health of the food that you're creating, right? And so when you do that, when you have all these like confluence of factors, you create a food system that is really built for corporate profits. So you are heavily reliant on these prepackaged ultra-processed foods that can travel far because you don't have good local food systems.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  You know, you said, my, my husband's from Romania, so I'm very familiar. We we go back most summers. familiar with kind of like the food systems in a lot of countries in Europe. And it's just very different than what we have here, you know. I will, I'll walk down the street with my mother in law and go to the local farmer's market, which is not what we consider farmer's markets in the United States. It's just the market, which is like where everybody goes for their produce from like local farms that are around there. I mean, it's much cheaper actually than to go to the actual grocery store, which is very different than here. We have, I, I live in Denver, so we have farmer's markets, but they're, they're incredibly expensive. Um, and, and they kind of, you know, they sell like goods and things like that. So we kind of did, did away from these local food systems. And so when you do that, you are heavily reliant on these prepackaged foods,

• 13:19Speaker 04

  which require, by the way, food additives to keep them shelf stable. Um, and for corporations, food corporations that are trying to maximize profit under this kind of system, um, they're going to swap and use cheap ingredients. So, you know, for example, we subsidize corn in this country. Now, a lot of that corn doesn't actually end up in our, in our food system. A lot of it goes towards animal agriculture and then, um, fuel. But because we subsidize corn, high fructose corn syrup is quite cheap for us as a sugar source. This is just one example versus cane sugar. So what these food corporations did was they started using high fructose corn syrup as their sugar source. For the only, the only reason for that was because it was cheaper, not because of any other reason. Um, but they were trying to maximize profits.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  And so you do that by cutting costs of, of ingredients. Um, and so what we have designed kind of intentionally with policy has been this food system that is not really conducive for our health, but it's conducive for corporate profits. And then you can go across the board, Scott, and you can look at, you know, you can look at physical activity. You can look at stress, you can look at sleep and all of the systems that have been designed. You know, just, just thinking of like physical activity. If you think of the built environment, I mean, in our country, we really designed roads and systems for the profitability of the automobile industry. And, and so we don't have, we have lots of towns and cities that aren't walkable and bikeable, which is very different than a lot of European countries, for example.

• 14:44Speaker 04

  And so, um, that, that's kind of through a public health lens is looking at those systems that are really impacting our individual choices.

• 14:51Scott Galloway?

  I want to put forward a couple of theses that beg, uh, potential solutions and just have you respond to them. And I'm very comfortable with pushback, recognizing that you're the expert here. And I do think that we need to bring expertise back in vogue. One. This is really just about money. China's run for control. Chinese companies are run for control. US companies are run for profits. European companies, sort of a hybrid between profits and what they think is potentially good for people. And there's downsides. We grow faster. We grow shareholder value faster. There's real benefits to having a robust economy. But at the end of the day, isn't the primary, if you were to look at people's health outcomes, doesn't it mostly, if you were to try and find something it's correlated to, doesn't it mostly come down to money?

• 15:35Scott Galloway?

  And because I'm wealthy, am I not going to live 10 years longer than someone who is in the lowest decile? Which begs the question. It's not romantic, it's not sexy, it's expensive. But would we move the needle a lot more than, say, Maha or subsidies if we said $25 an hour minimum wage? If we just gave poor people who have the worst health outcomes the money such they didn't have to have two jobs, they didn't have to find the cheapest calories available, which is usually at a Wendy's or a McDonald's? Doesn't at the end of the day, like everything else, this come down to money?

• 16:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, the main predictor of health in this country is wealth. So you're absolutely spot on. There's evidence to show, there's research to show that there's a 15-year life expectancy age gap for men and a 10-year life expectancy age gap for women between the highest and lowest income brackets. And you can look at more, sometimes more than 15, if you look at some of the research that looks at zip codes in the same state, and you'll see an even bigger disparity in terms of life expectancy. And so, yeah, 100% when we're thinking of like, how can we help the people who are struggling most? I mean, not just life expectancy. If you think of all of the lifestyle-related chronic diseases, they are disproportionately impacting the lowest-income people in this country. You know, diabetes rates are over twice as high, five times more likely to report poor

• 16:56Speaker 04

  or fair health than higher-income groups. And so, if you're trying to design systems to help improve the health of all Americans, you look at the people who are struggling most, and it's lowing some people in this country who don't have good access to fruits, vegetables, healthful foods, who don't have access to walkable towns. Parks for their children to run around and play, educational access, those things. And so getting those people just kind of like baseline access, right? Housing access for safe housing. So I don't know exactly if a $25 minimum wage would do it. I'd have to see data on that, but it's definitely getting resources to people so that they can at least have a baseline kind of, they can have baseline health insurance. They can have baseline food access.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  They can have baseline safe housing so that they can experience health as well.

• 17:46Scott Galloway?

  It strikes me though, I've read somewhere that we spent a trillion and a half dollars on obesity-related illnesses or obesity-related conditions. This is just, I used to think we're an addiction economy or we're an attention economy. Now I'm convinced we're an addiction economy and one of those addictions is to food because there's so much money in it. But what do you think of the idea or like, well, first off, thoughts on public policy to address it and a simple idea that probably doesn't, probably doesn't work? What if we just massively increase the availability and penetration of GLP-1 drugs?

• 18:19Speaker 04

  I think, first of all, let me address just like the food environment aspect in terms of policy. I think that if we're looking at what, like why we have this abundance of food, I mean, we have way more calories available to us than, than, you know, our ancestors did, even like a generation ago, two generations ago. We have about 4,000 calories available for each person that, that is alive today in the US and that's, you know, that, that's a lot of calories per person. We don't need that many calories and the, and the reasons for that are these food corporations are, you know, they're trying to stand out in a, in a system that where we already have too many calories available per person, right? And so they do that by innovating and coming up with, you know, a different color product or a different, you know, whatever it is.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  And so, you know, you go into one of these supermarkets and there's just thousands of products. I mean, it's really unnecessary, right? We don't need that many food products on our shelves, but they're doing it because they're, they're trying to maximize profits. And so, you know, some of the ways that you can counteract some of that is through regulation and which is funny enough, like right now we're going through, again, we have an administration that's quite deregulatory in their approach, which. Is interesting for people who want a better food environment. But you know, you would regulate marketing, particularly to children and low income populations who are most impacted by some of this, some of this stuff, but just in general, you would regulate marketing. And you know, one of the reasons we also have it is because we have very few corporations that own the majority of the food supply.

• 19:48Speaker 04

  And so they kind of get to, and that was because, you know, a kind of this deregulatory era where there were a lot of mergers and acquisitions. And now, you know, you think that you're getting a product that's a different brand, but it's a brand that's owned by the same company and you wouldn't even know it. Right? So I think that some of the, some of the ways we do this is kind of we, we regulate marketing, we regulate, you know, the amount of food that, or the, the types of foods that are allowed to be put on the shelves or those types of things. And then, but it's, it's also just like deeper. You, you have to change the entire food system because again, we have a food environment that's about 70% ultra processed foods. You have to incentivize it, starting agricultural policies, incentivizing smaller farmers, incentivizing,

• 20:30Speaker 04

  you know, through, we have the supplemental nutrition assistance program, which helps low income people get access to foods. And we have some really cool programs with that, that are called like double up bucks, which a lot of states have, which is basically like if you spend your money on fruits and vegetables, you get twice as much. So you, you basically like double the amount of money that you have. And so we have these cool incentive programs that kind of incentivize people to eat more like, you know, nutrient dense, health promoting foods. So, so those are some of the strategies to be able to expand access. You know, you have to address food deserts to expand access to kind of low income populations. And then on the other side of it, when, if you're just thinking of the obesity side and

• 21:12Speaker 04

  increasing GLP-1 drugs, I think that GLP-1 drugs, you know, I think they are amazing in terms of what they have been able to do and what they, the potential that they can have in terms of improving people's health. I don't, I am somebody who likes to think of more like root cause and fix the underlying systems before thinking of treating with a pharmaceutical med. I think there's definitely a place for pharmaceutical meds, but I would like to spend more of my time focused on like, how can we fix the systems that are putting people in these positions versus just treating on the back end?

• 21:42Scott Galloway?

  You said the make America healthy again movement gets the problems right, but the solutions wrong. What do you mean by that?

• 21:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so when I talk about the Make America Healthy Again movement, I mean, we sound like I sound very similar to them when I when I'll speak about kind of the problem, you know, they get they do get those problems largely correct, right? We do have a lifestyle-related chronic disease issue in this country. We do have a food environment that's built for profitability and not people's health. And, you know, we have we have systems in this country that are not designed for us to succeed. Where we kind of diverge is in the causes of those problems. So their causes largely kind of play into this rhetoric of it's a very conspiratorial, anti-science, anti-regulatory agency rhetoric, which is you can't trust,

• 22:29Speaker 04

  you know, our regulatory agencies. You can't trust scientists because apparently scientists are the ones who have gotten us here. And they kind of like distract from all of the issues that I'm talking about right now. They distract from, you know, the the the idea that all of the the reason that we're here is kind of the logical conclusion of the system that we've built, which is are these systems that have been designed, again, for profitability at the expense of people's health. And I think there when when you do that, when you kind of just focus on like, the problem is toxins in our food supply, and you just choose random ones that don't have like, it's not as if we have strong evidence behind some of these that they're choosing. You know, you get solutions like

• 23:11Speaker 04

  swapping the color of Fruit Loops, right? And or or swapping high fructose corn syrup for cane sugar in Coca-Cola. And those just aren't going to move the needle on health since they're very distracting from the policies that actually could be moving the needle on health, right? If you swap Red Dye 40 out of Skittles, and you add in carmine or beet juice instead, like a natural food color additive, and it's still Skittles, right? It's still a very low nutrient, high sugar, ultra-processed food that we should probably be consuming less of, not not necessarily none of, but less of. Same with Coca-Cola, same with swapping beef tallow out and putting in, you know, seed oils in fast food french fries. Like, none of these things are going to actually change our food environment and

• 23:56Speaker 04

  actually make a meaningful difference on public health. And so it's very much a distraction. And what I'll say is that if you get the problems wrong, you're going to get the solutions wrong. And so some of those solutions I just highlighted, which is what Maha is really talking about, some of the other solutions that you'll do is say, Things like fluoride in the water is the problem and that's causing all of our chronic disease issues. And so we're going to remove fluoride. Well, at the same time, dental cavities or dental caries are the number one chronic disease in children. So if you're trying to improve chronic disease in children and you remove fluoride, which is directly going to increase the number of dental caries, that is a solution that is going to actually cause more harm than good in terms of what our evidence actually shows. And so that's the

• 24:39Speaker 04

  danger in kind of misdiagnosing the problem and then your solutions that follow are going to be problematic.

• 24:47Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back after a quick break.

• 24:56Scott Galloway?

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• 25:41Scott Galloway?

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• 26:13Scott Galloway?

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• 26:58Scott Galloway?

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• 27:42Scott Galloway?

  The Regentic Trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof? Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Ryder, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/profg and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash prof G for $1,000 off.

• 28:30Scott Galloway?

  Forty percent of American households have some form of medical or dental debt. And I can't imagine the amount of stress that puts on households and shame, quite frankly. You know, me and my partner are working really hard and we can't afford to get our 19-year-old the root canal she needs, and we have to take on debt. And that amount of stress, which I imagine leads to worse health outcomes, and then you have a kind of a downward spiral. Do you believe that we should nationalize medicine?

• 28:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, medical debt is also the number one reason for personal bankruptcy in the United States. Yeah, I'm a big advocate for some kind of universal healthcare system, some kind of system that gets everybody basic access to healthcare. And then we can have private insurance on top of that. If we, you know, like, companies can offer private insurance on top of that. But everybody should have basic access to healthcare, which is what every other industrialized country in the world does. And let me explain the reason for that. It's not just because I'm, you know, altruistic and just want everybody to have free things. If you give people access to healthcare, they're going to go to preventive visits. And when that happens, they're going to be able to catch things early on.

• 29:41Speaker 04

  And so, access to healthcare is one of our main determinants of health. There's incredible amount of data on this. You give people access to healthcare, they get healthier. Not everybody, but on a mass scale, when you look at kind of the population as a whole, because they're going to go to preventive visits, they're going to go to screenings, and they're going to catch things before they get to down the line. When people don't have healthcare, what happens is, or they have healthcare that doesn't cover, you know, these types of visits, or they have really high deductibles, and so they, maybe they have healthcare, but they would have to pay out of pocket anyway for some of these visits, they're not going to go to the doctor. And but the problem is, is that they're still going to get sick. It's not as if they're just not going to get sick because they don't have healthcare. And when they get sick, they're still going to go to the hospital. They're going to end up in the emergency room.

• 30:26Speaker 04

  And what we have is a lot of Americans using the emergency room as their primary care physician. And so they're go ending up at the emergency room. And if you're in front of an emergency room having a heart attack, that hospital is going to accept you and they're going to give you care. And when you can't pay those medical bills, that that cost is going to come on to us as taxpayers. So it's not like that cost just goes away. So and and it comes on to us with increased premiums in our health insurance, with increased hospital costs, with increased uncompensated care. So our tax dollars go to something called uncompensated care, which goes directly to these hospitals to compensate them for this uncompensated care. And so, you know, not only is it problematic from a, you know, money money standpoint, but it's also problematic from a health standpoint.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  So if we can get more people access to healthcare, we're going to improve the health of those Americans and also decrease costs. Because there's some good evidence to show that, you know, I mean, in this country, we pay twice as much for healthcare and we have worse health outcomes. You know, we we've created a healthcare system that's very profitable for healthcare corporations at the expense of, again, people's health and people getting access to healthcare. And so you're going to improve people's health and you're going to lower costs.

• 31:39Scott Galloway?

  So that's obviously a big solution, universal healthcare. And then may, you know, if if everyone else has done it, I'd like to think we could do it, but most people will say it's it's it would be very difficult to accomplish. Are there two or three policy solutions or private sector solutions that you think would move the needle?

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I I think if you think of the main determinants of health, they are healthcare access, food access, income inequality, right? And probably income inequality is even above the the other two. And so, you know, when you think of policies that could actually help improve health, you have to look at, well, what are the main determinants of health? And then what are policies that could impact those? And so if you're thinking of income inequality, it's it's some kind of solution that decreases. Income inequality, right? Which is the exact opposite that we're seeing right now, obviously, with the big beautiful bill. You know, the big beautiful bill, I'm gonna like tangentially talk about this because it kind of counteracts everything I just said. If you think about

• 32:39Speaker 04

  income inequality and decreasing income inequality, it's exacerbating income inequality. If you think about expanding healthcare access, it's cutting nearly a trillion dollars from healthcare access from Medicaid specifically, which, you know, the Congressional Budget Office estimates 10 million people are going to lose access to healthcare. Now, they will argue that that's, that those people that are losing access to healthcare are, you know, able-bodied people who should be working. There's just no evidence that 10 million people are able-bodied people who should be working. The vast majority of people on Medicaid who can work and don't have an exemption are working. And, you know, we, again, I just kind of explained why we want to get more people access to healthcare regardless. And the last one is food accessibility. And so,

• 33:21Speaker 04

  you know, getting people more access to food, food is, is a big social determinant of health, and this cuts hundreds of billions of dollars from, from SNAP and the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. So, um, that, that's really problematic. Right now, what we're seeing is kind of like the, it's antithetical to what we would want to see in public health. What I will say in terms of like policy-based solutions, it starts with overturning Citizens United and getting money out of politics. Because that, and, and a lot of people don't kind of like put that together with, with the policies that are impacting their health. But the reason that we can't pass a lot of policy that are health-promoting policies is because of, of kind of corporate capture of

• 34:05Speaker 04

  some of these politicians. And, and, you know, there's not a lot of money on the front end in public health. And so in order to get something like universal healthcare passed, or expanding access to some of these programs, the infrastructure bill that, you know, Biden passed was, was really a, a great thing because it was looking at kind of the built environment and improving some of those systems. But it would be a lot easier if we could decrease the amount of corporate lobbying that was allowed at our political level.

• 34:32Scott Galloway?

  What role do you think that, uh, social media has played specifically around the Maha movement? Why do you think it's resonating so much? I, I keep getting served. I'm very into health, but I keep getting served. A reel or a TikTok that's something along the lines of, look at this horrible thing that's in your food. You can also, it's also used in antifreeze. You know, they scare the shit out of you. And then it always ends with, oh, and by the way, the way you solve this problem and have better looking skin and longer erections is if you buy my supplement. And they're really elegant, they're well-produced, it's from someone who is articulate and attractive. And you kind of, you know, you can see how these are big businesses. And on the one hand, I love entrepreneurship. I love people having access to consumers to

• 35:13Scott Galloway?

  come up with ideas. On the whole, I think it's mostly a negative. And I'm curious, you, you, you put out a lot of interesting, I love it when you do these stitches where you listen to someone rant about something and then you come in and go, well, actually, no, there's no scientific proof whatsoever. Why do you think the Maha movement is resonating? What role do you think online platforms play?

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the Maha movement took the wellness influencer playbook that's that they've been using for, you know, at least the last 10 years. A lot of my colleagues in the science communication space have been, you know, combating some of this misinformation that's been on social media for, for years now. And, you know, the Maha movement, I think, saw the success of some of these influencers, particularly some of the ones that are high up in this Maha movement, and, and really like honed in on those. I think that social media algorithms play, you know, they really play into conspiratorial fear-based information. That's what sells and that's what, that's what spreads fast. So, you know, I, I've done some videos where I stitch people who are like, are you poisoning your kids? And then they go into kind of like a single ingredient in a food item that's also found in like a

• 36:20Speaker 04

  cleaning agent in Home Depot or something. And that's supposed to be very scary. And I think they, they're relying on people's lack of kind of like chemistry knowledge, right? And, and scientific knowledge. Cause we have, you know, I mean, just think of baking soda, right? Baking soda is an ingredient that can be in chocolate chip cookies, or it can be used in, in some sort of cleaning agent, right? Baking soda is really great. Or it can be sitting in your refrigerator in order to air it out, right? In order to, in order to make it, make it cleaner. So it's got lots of different functions and a lot of ingredients. Are like that. And so, you know, if you if you rely on people to not really understand that, you can kind of manipulate their lack of understanding in order to then on the back end, as you mentioned, most of the time, sell you some sort of product, right?

• 37:05Speaker 04

  So I'm going to scare you and then I'm going to sell you a product. And and I think it just unfortunately, the way that social media algorithms are is that that's what plays really well on social media. I mean, even myself, I if I went online and I just started educating, you know, I think that some people would watch it. But what I found is that it works a lot better when I show the the video and then I like reply to the video. And you know, that's me kind of playing in that social media algorithms because it that that's what works. When somebody sees the misinformation and then I correct the misinformation. And so unfortunately, I social media, I think social media takes most of the blame, to be honest. And and then what happens is you get into an algorithm, you you watch one or two of those videos

• 37:49Speaker 04

  and you get into an algorithm and then you that's all you see. And you don't have a chance. I can't tell you how many people, when I, you know, started making content, really like targeted, really like combating some of the narratives coming out of this Maha movement. Because I just saw how manipulative some of the narratives were. Um, how many people reached out to me in my DMs and said, you know, I I just never had the opportunity to hear another side to this. Like this is literally, I I've just seen kind of like what they're saying about all these like toxins and all this. And I've never heard like a scientist or anyone else talk about that. And, you know, social media is great at that. It's great at dividing us and kind of putting us in our camps. And then you never really see the other side. Um, so I think it takes a ton of blame.

• 38:31Scott Galloway?

  What are your thoughts on how COVID changed the landscape?

• 38:35Speaker 04

  I think COVID completely changed the landscape. And so what's interesting about my field is wellness was really always kind of like a left leaning idea. You know, like hippies in San Francisco kind of like started there. And then, you know, people who really cared about the food supply and, um, you know, small farmers and that sort of thing. And we've seen over the last five years, like this shift in, in kind of like wellness discourse. Um, that has really kind of moved from left to right. And so again, like wellness is a bipartisan thing. Most of us want wellness, but I think, um, the underlying shift that's happened is this distrust in regulatory agencies and distrust in science.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  And I think most of that, I think maybe there was a little of that before, but most of that in terms of like our everyday discourse, it really came from COVID. Um, and I think it was kind of a confluence of, um, COVID was, you know, a novel virus that, uh, you know, we were dealing with a global pandemic and so science was changing because that's what it does as new information was coming in. Um, and I think there's a bit of a lack of, you know, uh, we, we don't, a lot of us want cer- certainty. Um, and, and COVID did not give us certainty, particularly in the early days. And so I think as things shifted, it really just opened the door for a lot of kind of manipulative or conspiratorial narratives to kind of enter the fray. Um, and then at that same time, you know, social media was even getting bigger.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  Tik Tok was released like right before that and it was huge at that time. And I think, you know, those types of algorithms just started getting people into camps. I don't know that we would have seen the same kind of distrust and the same kind of like response that we saw during COVID if we didn't have social media, right? Cause we, we've had, you know, not to the same extent, but we've had kind of like these public health crises before and we haven't necessarily seen the same thing. Um, and, and you know, I think a little bit of, uh, some of that definitely, um, like we as scientists, public health experts, communicators, um, need to take some blame because I think there were mistakes made in terms of like communication at that time. Um, and, and you know, what was happening and really just communicating that like, this is what we know now.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  It could change because of when we get more information, um, you know, but because that maybe perhaps wasn't communicated as best as we could now looking back and seeing kind of like what we could have done. Um, I think that it just really left gaping holes open for people to step in and just create conspiratorial narratives around it all. Um, and that's why we've seen kind of this huge surge of people who just have complete distrust in our regulatory agencies, which, you know, Maha really plays on.

• 41:10Scott Galloway?

  It seems as if a vessel for some of this distrust or rejection of science is focused on vaccines right now. What's happening in terms of mRNA research cancellations? And why do you think vaccines have become such a hotbed for controversy?

• 41:26Speaker 04

  Well, RFK Junior is the head of HHS is certainly part of that, right? RFK, he's for the last, you know, at least two decades, he's kind of been in this anti-vax space. You know, he started up the Children's Health Defense, which kind of this anti-vax group. And he that's that's his main coalition. It's really interesting, this Maha movement. They kind of have two sides, two facets of the coalition. It's the hardcore anti-vaxers who have been with RFK Junior for years, who made up kind of his, when he was running for president as an independent, kind of like made up his coalition. And then they brought in kind of this more like the Maha Moms who are really worried about like the food additives and the toxins in our food supply and those types of things. And so they kind of like

• 42:09Speaker 04

  brought them together. And there's kind of been some, there's, there's, there's been some infighting there, which is interesting. But I think on the anti-vax side, you know, we, COVID obviously is part of that. And RFK Junior and, and his anti-vax like colleagues are certainly part of it. And now, I mean, he's the head of HHS. HHS is the biggest public health agency in the entire world. And he's, he's leading that charge. And so I think that that's why it's so front and center in public discourse, clearly. And what we're seeing right now, I mean, he canceled half a million, half a billion dollars in mRNA vaccine research. mRNA is a technology that, you know, the inventors of mRNA just

• 42:50Speaker 04

  won a Nobel Prize for it in 2023. If you talk to experts in this field about who are experts in mRNA, they will say that they believe it's going to revolutionize medicine. They believe it's going to do for the 21st century, what antibiotics did for the 20th century. You know, it's, it's a very elegant technology where it speeds things up. And so maybe some people don't understand, but the reason that we were able to get the COVID vaccines out so quickly was because they had spent You know, a decade plus, two decades, um, working on this mRNA technology. And so a ton of research had gone into it. And so when, when they were, um, when they identified the SARS-CoV-2,

• 43:30Speaker 04

  they were able to come out with a vaccine quite quickly for it, whereas, you know, it would have taken years prior to that. And so, you know, it's, and it's not just vaccines. It's, it's, it's not just, you know, infectious diseases. It's also that they think it's going to revolutionize cancer, um, and potentially be incredible for cancer, um, like cancer treatments. Um, and other like unknown diseases or not well-known diseases. And so I think that it's really problematic when, when he just cancels half a billion dollars in the research. I mean, the research is the part that like, let's, let's make things safer. Let's make, like, let's improve upon what we have. Let's see what else it can, um, impact. And, you know, this is research being done globally and he canceled half a billion dollars here in the United States, which,

• 44:13Speaker 04

  you know, is, is, there's an economic cost to that, too. So we're basically giving up, we're, we're, we're the leaders in this research right now. And we're giving up kind of that leadership by canceling this research into mRNA vaccine technology. Um, and so, you know, and that's not all we're seeing with vaccines. We're seeing, we're seeing the entire CDC essentially being dismantled. You know, RFK Junior just fired the head of the CDC, um, several leadership positions. These are career scientists, some who have been at the CDC for decades, um, have resigned, saying that, you know, RFK Junior's not even listening to them at the CDC. It's really, um, concerning that when you're, when you have an HHS secretary, who is literally just not listening to career scientists and instead is kind of listening to, to his own group of people.

• 45:01Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

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• 47:17Scott Galloway?

  We're back with more from Dr. Jessica Nurek.

• 47:23Scott Galloway?

  Where do you think that lack of appreciation for science and what feels to me just like naked incompetence, where do you think that manifests first? Where is that going to start to bubble up in terms of outcomes?

• 47:37Speaker 04

  Science is, it's, it's an interesting thing because it's what has enabled us, you know, the scientific method, it's just, basically, science is a way of understanding the world around us, right? It's not, it's not a set of facts that we, that we say are like, never going to change. It's, it's a way of understanding the world around us. And the scientific method has enabled incredible advances in the last 150 years, a, a over-doubling of global life expectancy in just the last 150 years. You know, I just saw a clip from a, a few weeks ago of Neil deGrasse Tyson talking about this, and he, he put it beautifully. He said, you know, for thousands and thousands of years, life expectancy was 30 to 35, up until about 150, 200 years ago, when all of a sudden it went up to, you know, in the United States, about 78 right now, right?

• 48:22Speaker 04

  And so, and that was because we, we have been able to create this really beautiful way to understand the world around us. It's not perfect, it has issues, it's not foolproof, and, and things change that we, and we learn more. But it's a way that we are able to identify viruses, identify germ, like germ theory has enabled us to identify germs. And so if we disregard the scientific method, we don't really have to look far to see what, what would happen, right? Because we lived that for thousands of years, when we had people who kind of, you know, treated through ideology, treated through, treated people through like, what they believed to be true, without necessarily having evidence. And, you know, outcomes weren't great, again, 30 to 35 was life expectancy, that was certainly

• 49:06Speaker 04

  disproportionately, like, young people were, were dying of infectious diseases, or a lack of sanitation, and those types of things. And so when we disregard science, what we're going to see are, are people dying because of it, like, to, to put it bluntly. We're gonna see, you know, if we have another pandemic, if we have, we're, we're gonna see a resurgence of some of these infectious diseases that haven't been around. I mean, we see it with measles right now, and the measles outbreak. And, you know, as vaccination status decreases, we'll see these, these diseases that used to take a lot of lives and don't anymore resurge. And, you know, that, that's kind of the fear, is that if we, if we stop investing in science... We will see consequences of not investing in science and that will be that we'll see,

• 49:51Speaker 04

  you know, diseases that we could have had progress on, um, we won't have progress on, right? And so, so those are all really like strong concerns for us in the scientific community. And then there's an economic aspect to it as well because, you know, we in the United States, we've always, in a bipartisan way, really supported scientific research, um, you know, and, and NIH research. And, and that's kind of been a bipartisan thing. Right now, we're looking at Trump's 2026 budget. He wants to cut NIH funding by 40%. Um, and, and you know, if you do that, you are essentially like giving up your standing in terms of, um, you know, scientific innovation in our country that obviously has problematic impacts for, for the economy.

• 50:34Scott Galloway?

  What trends or technologies are you keeping an eye on right now? Is there anything that you think we're missing to the downside or the upside?

• 50:41Speaker 04

  In terms of just public health?

• 50:43Scott Galloway?

  What are you watching right now? What do you think has been underreported in terms of the impact it might have? Also, to the upside, is there anything you're really excited about?

• 50:51Speaker 04

  I think what's being underreported and under, um, maybe like, people aren't realizing how detrimental it might be, are these, um, attacks to science and, and what it's doing to young scientists. So PhD students, young career scientists, people in the medical field, um, you know, medical doctors. Um, we're seeing, you know, I talk to every single day, like young stage career scientists who are looking to leave the country. Um, we're, we're seeing PhD, um, programs that, uh, are not being funded. And so there are no spots for PhD students and so they're having to look outside of the country. Um, we're seeing like some of our best researchers, um, in, in some of our fields le- leave the

• 51:33Speaker 04

  country. I know, I mean, like very excellent, uh, nutrition researchers that I know are, are moving to Canada, um, and just accepted positions in Canada. And so, and we see some of these countries that are creating pathways for scientists. They're kind of capitalizing on this, on this, um, brain drain that we're experiencing right now and opening pathways to, to allow them to move, um, to their countries. We see France doing it. We see Canada doing it. I think there's a couple of other countries that are doing it as well. Um, and so that is very concerning to me in terms of. We may lose because of funding, because of just like the overall feeling of how people are, you know, first of all, there's a loss of funding.

• 52:15Speaker 04

  Second of all, there's this idea that, you know, a lot of our medical doctors, people are coming in and just yelling at them or not listening to what their advice is or saying that they're paid off by Big Pharma and these types of things when, you know, they get into this field to really try to help people. And I know of a lot of medical doctors who are thinking about leaving the profession. And so I'm concerned about kind of the downstream effects of that in, let's say, 10 years, when we have far fewer scientists and medical professionals in the field. That's kind of one of the things that I think is being underreported. And I'm talking to people every single day who are talking about this, who are in these fields, who are thinking of leaving, either leaving science altogether or trying to leave the country and to go someplace else to do their work.

• 53:01Scott Galloway?

  As a parent, what advice would you give to other parents in terms of where we get it wrong in terms of our own kids' nutrition?

• 53:10Speaker 04

  I think right now, one of the things that I dislike so much about the social media aspect of all of this and how these algorithms really like play into this conspiratorial fear-based nature is I'm seeing a huge exacerbation of like just food anxiety, right? And like fear about like, what can my kids eat? What can I eat? And, you know, young parents are especially vulnerable targets. And so I feel like especially protective over them because we just want to do what's best for our young kids, right? We just ourselves, but also our young kids. And so when I'm talking to them, if I were to give a piece of advice, it would be that the basics of what are like from a health perspective,

• 53:53Speaker 04

  the basics that may go into somebody's health are, you know, they've been longstanding for decades and they haven't changed a whole lot. So, you know, try to emphasize like whole foods as much as possible. Try to get movement every single day. Try to have a good sleep schedule, those types of things. And those, try to play with your kids. And those things are going to do a lot more than kind of looking at individual ingredients on a label or being scared to eat anything. And so that's what I want to really drive home in terms of messaging is just, you know, And that kind of goes to everyone in the country, like not just, not just children. You know, 90% of Americans don't meet fiber intake guidelines. Over 90% of Americans don't meet vegetable intake guidelines.

• 54:36Speaker 04

  80% of Americans don't meet physical activity guidelines. If we can just focus on the basics, try to get more fiber-rich foods, try to eat, get a vegetable on your plate at most meals, try to move your body. The average American walks 3,000 to 4,000 steps per day. Try to get moving a bit more. That's going to have a way more measurable impact on your health than any of the things that we're spending 90% of our time on social media thinking about.

• 55:02Scott Galloway?

  We've seen those studies where in China, the number one aspirational job for kids is astronaut, in the US, it's influencer. I think of you as an influencer, and I mean that in a positive way. And I think a lot of people see your social media footprint, as I did, and think that's the right type of influencer. She's bringing substance, important topic, expertise, measured thoughtful, and you're, you're very compelling the way you articulate these things. How did you get here? I just want to know, what is your backstory? What led to where you are right now?

• 55:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I am. So I have a PhD in nutrition science and I'm a registered dietitian. And I got into this field really, it was, I mean, it was a long process, but my goal was really to look at chronic disease prevention. My grandpa died when he was in his 60s. He had type 2 diabetes and he, he died of a heart attack while snow blowing in Michigan. And so that always had me thinking like, how, how could we have helped him better? Because the, what we heard from, you know, and I was a child, I was a kid at this time, so a teenager, but what we knew to be the case was that he just shouldn't eat sugar. And so what we would do is we would just find like sugar-free alternatives for him. And we would get so excited, we would find sugar-free brownies or sugar-free candy. And, and we would bring it to him and think that we were helping and not realizing that

• 56:21Speaker 04

  that wasn't helpful at all. But, you know, we thought that what we were doing was the right thing. And so that just got had me always interested in the kind of this idea of chronic disease prevention. And so when I went For my PhD program, I went into a program that was really interdisciplinary. So, I mean, the title of it is physical activity, nutrition and wellness. And I really focused on the nutrition science side of that. But it was cool because we were able to kind of all work together and look at all of these factors that impacted health and how to decrease health. And so when I was looking at it, I was really focused on the individual. But when you get into the research, you think you kind of see, oh, we have really good data on what can prevent chronic disease, at least lifestyle-related chronic disease. But what we're missing is like behavior change.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  The behavior change data, it's very difficult to change people's behavior. And so when you kind of start looking at that data, it's impossible to not look at the systems that are impacting people's behavior. And so that's where my research led me, was just kind of looking at these public health systems that are really influencing us. And so I was a professor at the University of Nevada for a couple of years. And then my husband was in San Francisco at the time, and I was in Vegas, and we lived separately. And the only way for us to really get together was a personal choice. I left academia to join him in San Francisco. And, you know, when I was a professor, though, I told this story. I tried to go on social media. So this was 2016, and there was a new app out.

• 57:47Speaker 04

  And my brother, my little brother, convinced me to go on and just start teaching nutrition. He was like, you're teaching in class, just go teach what you teach on this app. And so I did, and, you know, I talk about this a lot. It was very frowned upon at that time for academics to go on social media. Like, that just was not what you did. And you probably can speak to this as well. It was, you know, and I was a brand-new tenure-track professor, and so I did not want to, you know, I didn't want to negatively impact my career trajectory. And I would get, I got comments from some of the professors in my department and some previous colleagues, basically making fun of me and asking like, what are you doing on social media? And saying like, how's your blog doing?

• 58:26Scott Galloway?

  I still relate to this. In a department meeting, I had a colleague, say in front of all of my colleagues, that Scott is a Kim Kardashian of academia, and he wasn't being kind. It outed you as someone who wasn't serious, which wasn't the case. Anyways, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  No, I mean, that's that was exactly my experience. And so I I get off after a few months. I was like, well, I'm not going to do this. I'm a brand new professor. I want to like, I want a career in academia. Um, but I say that story to say that, like, I think we lost a lot of ground for years and years, particularly in the sciences. It was frowned. It was frowned upon for us to go to spaces where people were going for information. And so we started allowing kind of this these narratives to be owned by people who didn't necessarily have the background to be talking about these topics. And so um, I think that that was that did us a big disservice. I think that's changing now. It's not 100% changed, but it's changing now to be more accepted. And so anyway, I went into the startup world and that's where I started working in science communication.

• 59:26Speaker 04

  Um, and working kind of between PhD researchers and and business people. And so I would be act as kind of a translator. And so I I honed some communication skills doing that, I think. And I came on social media in 2022. Originally, I was pregnant with my daughter. Um, and started, uh, you know, I just saw a lot of misinformation, um, targeting pregnant people and I was protective of them because I was one. And so I started kind of combating some of that misinformation. And then it was last summer that I started when when the Maha movement kind of started. Um, you know, coming, coming of age, um, I started to see it. I think it was just because it was my exact area of expertise. I was able to see whereas maybe I'm not in other areas of politics, um, exactly like how manipulative the narrative really was.

• 1:00:11Speaker 04

  Um, and so I shifted my content focus to talk really about my my area of expertise, which was which was nutrition, science and public health. And yeah, my account has grown from there and it's been quite the ride.

• 1:00:23Scott Galloway?

  And just any, if you were to sort of communicate, if there was one thing as we go into, you know, well, the 26 election is way off. But if if there's anything you would want to remind people, or if you wanted to distill your message down to one basic message, you really so that resonates with people that they really contemplate on, what would that one message be?

• 1:00:45Speaker 04

  I think it would be that health is bipartisan, right? And wanting a healthier food environment, wanting healthier systems is really bipartisan. And so we have to understand the problem and how we got here in order to understand the solution. And so I understand kind of the desire to kind of just latch on to some of these like very simple, easy kind of conspiratorial narratives in terms of the toxins in our food environment, or this, or that, or, you know, our regulatory agencies. But, but you have to understand why we got here and then like, let's solve the root cause of, of why we got here. And so one of the great things about the Maha movement is it's gotten people who have never really thought about these systems and really never thought about public health before to be very interested in it.

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  And I think that's a real opportunity for us as professionals to be able to, maybe for the first time, meet people where they are and explain these things and, and talk to them about how we could improve upon our systems to, and to make a, an environment that puts the most people in success, in, in a position of success in terms of their health. And, and so that's, that's what, I guess, looking forward, what I'm hopeful about is that, you know, I do think that there's a real opportunity here for us to change some things in terms of improving the systems in our country that on both sides of the aisle, many of us want to see and changing those for the better for, for all of Americans.

• 1:02:09Scott Galloway?

  It feels as if in our government, we overindex, or at least our elected officials, we overindex on lawyers and business people and underindex on health professionals. Dr. Nurk, would you ever consider running for office?

• 1:02:19Speaker 04

  You know, people ask me that all the time, Scott. I, I've, I have two young kids and they're five and two, and so I'm not considering running for office anytime soon. I think that I am in a position right now where I am able to maybe potentially do a more help or be, be more helpful in terms of just a communication role than I would be kind of in a, in a government office role, maybe in the future, but I don't even know what that would look like or even how you do that. So probably not, not anytime soon.

• 1:02:49Scott Galloway?

  Well, health is bipartisan is a fantastic bumper sticker. Dr. Jessica Nurek is a nutrition scientist, registered dietitian, and nationally recognized science communicator, whose work spans nutrition, public health, and food policy. She's best known for breaking down health misinformation and making science clear and accessible. She joins us from her home in Denver. Dr. Nurek, in a world where expertise has been eroded, or that science denial seems to be hip and cool, there needs to be a resistance of thoughtful people that continues to bring science, data-driven solutions to a society. I think you are a gift. You combine substance, you are incredibly compelling, you have weaponized these mediums

• 1:03:33Scott Galloway?

  for good, and I'm just so, we're sincere about this, we want to be a weapon and a platform for spreading your accurate information. You really are, I think, a huge force of positive information that's really needed right now. Very much appreciate your work and appreciate your time today.

• 1:03:52Speaker 04

  Really appreciate that. Thank you for having me, Scott.

• 1:04:19Scott Galloway?

  Algebra of Happiness. This episode is being released on the 24th anniversary of 9/11. And as you know, I never miss an opportunity to talk about myself. I was in New York on September 11th, and it was a pretty meaningful and impactful day. I got a call from my ex-wife. She and I had split up about 12 months before that, but we were still good friends. And she was staying in an apartment that had this view of all of Lower Manhattan. And she said, can you come over? Something's wrong. I said, of course I can. And she said, the World Trade Center is on fire. And she was rattled by it. And she thought at the point it was a fire. And she said, come over here. And I went over there and I got on her deck. And a friend of ours, my buddy Greg Show, was there.

• 1:05:03Scott Galloway?

  And he came over and all three of us. And then we saw another plane, a second plane disappear behind the second tower, and then come out the other end. And at that moment, we knew that it was a terrorist attack. And I saw both buildings come down. And although we were a couple of miles or a mile and a half north, I remember feeling a couple of things. One, you could feel the heat from the implosion of the buildings and thinking that it reminded me of a Star Wars episode and that I would never see anything like that again in my life, live. It looked otherworldly and like some sort of episode out of a sci fi film, seeing these buildings implode and come down. And then a river of people flowing up Sixth Avenue.

• 1:05:48Scott Galloway?

  All the cell phones immediately didn't work. My sister trying to find me, track me down, couldn't find me, got very upset. And then they came over the radio and said that there were like 22 planes unaccounted for and that thought of fear, rational fear, that are there going to be another 22 planes slamming into tall buildings? How tall is this plane? Should I go down to the ground? Or how tall is this building? Should I go down to the ground? Couple other observations. It was the first time in New York where it was totally silent. For the next few days, there was no honking. There was just no sound. And you would walk down the street and you would see someone on a cell phone. I'm not exaggerating, every few hundred feet, speaking into a cell phone, crying hysterically.

• 1:06:29Scott Galloway?

  And everybody knew someone or knew someone who knew someone who was lost that day in one of those buildings or on one of the planes. And the moment that will register with me for the rest of my life is I went to Union Square where they were having a memorial and this old Ukrainian couple, I think they were Ukrainian, wearing cheap clothing and they were just tiny. They like, looked like they were like four foot eight or four foot 10, came up to me and they were handing out flyers, the way you hand out flyers for a lost pet. And this had a picture of this, you know, this handsome young man in a waiter's uniform and he was a waiter at Windows of the World, which is a restaurant at the top of the World Trade Center.

• 1:07:13Scott Galloway?

  And saying, have you seen me? And it wasn't bad, like have have seen me. They obviously just speak very good English and they were passing it out like they were looking for a lost dog. And you just knew immediately what was going on, that they were never going to find their son. And the thing about the deaths that day is people either escaped unscathed or they were killed. Like they immediately set up San Vicente, was it called San Vicente Hospital? It was called, it's closed now for injury from the attacks. And they didn't have any at Mideast because everyone either died and was taken to a morgue, or survived. But I remember thinking, you know, it was so obvious what was what had happened to their son and they couldn't acknowledge it. And it just struck me that people will hold on

• 1:07:56Scott Galloway?

  to like any shred of of of hope. And there are all these stories about people who are wandering around Manhattan, trying to find their loved ones, refusing to believe that they died. The other thing that struck me was I thought one of the finest moments in recent history for America was when, after spending several years, CIA analysts who had doggedly tried to find Osama bin Laden and then found him and took huge risks and deployed a SEAL team into hostile territory and basically put a put a bullet in that motherfucker's eye. And I love the notion that this guy, that the last thing that ran

• 1:08:38Scott Galloway?

  through his head, other than a bullet, was they had found me. And I think I think it really spoke to not only America's expertise and skills and the fact that we have so many outstanding analysts in the intelligence community and brave men who are willing to risk their own lives to go into hostile territory and we have the technology and the infrastructure, but that our memory is long and our reach is far. I thought that was a really proud moment. And it also strikes me that was the last time that felt like America came together around everything. And

• 1:09:08Scott Galloway?

  You really never know when is the last time you're going to see anybody. So my, what I do now, and it's not a function of 9/11, but every time I sign off with my sons, I say, I love you. Also, one of the things that really struck me is listening to the calls from the planes that knew they were doomed, or calls from the passengers of the planes that knew they were doomed. These were people, they used to have those phones on planes, who knew that this was, this was bad. They had gotten news reports from people they talked to that these planes were slamming into buildings. The plane had been hijacked and they knew that probably their time was, their time was coming to an end. And all of the phone calls, all of the voicemails were along the lines of, I love you. All of them.

• 1:09:52Scott Galloway?

  None of them were, do this, or find my will's here, or I'm angry about this, or this was what my life meant. It was all just very simple, I love you. That when faced with the end, that, that is the last thing that runs, that is the last thing that people want to communicate to each other.

• 1:10:15Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our assistant producer is Laura Janer. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from Prop G Media.

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