The Jalen Williams Game, Haliburton’s Injury, OKC Vs. MJ’s Bulls, and Giannis’s Future With Doc Rivers

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to react to OKC taking a commanding 3-2 lead against the Pacers in the NBA Finals (2:18). Then, they discuss Tyrese Haliburton’s injury and the Knicks firing Tom Thibodeau (22:08). Finally, they talk about SGA’s development, Giannis trade rumors, and much more (42:50). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Doc Rivers Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatch of what's coming for you. Not Monday night, Tuesday night. It's New York City Month. We're doing Marathon Man, Dustin Hoffman, Sir Lawrence Olivier,

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  the William Goldman book that turned into a movie directed by John Schlesinger as part of New York City Month. It's a really good one. Me and Chris Ryan, we recorded it today, had a great time. And that will be running on Tuesday night this week because we are running a very special Monday night podcast coming off game five Pacers, OKC. You saw what happened. OKC won the game. They took a 3-2 lead in the series. And our old friend, Doc Rivers, is going to be joining us to break down everything that he saw. And we'll ask him some other NBA questions, too. We haven't talked to him since he just coached another year with the Bucks. That is all coming up next. We're going to take a break and then we're going to get to Pearl Jam. I'm not going to talk about the Red Sox today.

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  Maybe midweek or Thursday. The Devers trade, controversial. Dumped money that they probably should have dumped. And yet, because it's the Red Sox, because of what's happened the last seven years, the Red Sox fans are pissed anyway. Lots to cover. I'll probably have to bring in a guest for that one. But anyway, coming up, Doc Rivers. First a break, then Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full-court press. Get a game plan.

• 2:10Bill Simmons?

  That helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 2:47Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're recording 8:30 Pacific time. Doc Rivers is here. It's been a while for us. We just watched game five of the 2025 finals. You're in Florida. I'm in California. I guess that's the Jalen Williams game. There might be many more games for him to come, but.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the Jalen Williams game. Yeah. And the Shea game. And I really think it was more the Oklahoma bench game. You know, it's amazing. You know, I don't know how often this happens, but the role players play better at home. And, you know, obviously, you know, so did the Pacers role players on the road. They all play well as well. And, and obviously, Haliburton, I think he's injured, didn't have a lot tonight. But at the end of the day, Jalen, Shea, and the role players were the difference in the game.

• 3:37Bill Simmons?

  So Jalen Williams, over the course of the playoffs, where you think he's got to be at least the Pippen, right? Not to, not to compare anyone to Michael Jordan, but he's got to be the Robin, the Pippen, that side. It's like, is this a year too early for him? Is this Scottie Pippen in 1990? Or is he actually ready for this? And the way he's played the last three nights, especially tonight, this felt like Pippen in 91, when they just blew the doors out of anybody and he's guarded Magic and he just went up and it was like, oh shit, this guy's like one of the best 12, 13 guys in the league now. The stuff he was doing off the dribble, how comfortable he was going left hand, going right hand. I don't know what the ceiling is anymore for him, Doc.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  You know what's, what's interesting is a couple of things. Number one, last year he really struggled. Everyone forced him right. Uh, that was, that was the scouting report that every team had. If you've been forced right, he struggles. He went back to the lab, worked on it all summer. There's nothing better, uh, from a coach standpoint, when you see a player come back the next NBA season and has worked on all the things that he needed to work on. Uh, and he went back. I mean, I can't imagine the hours that he put in, but then I thought he was struggling a tad bit at the beginning of this series. And, and Bill, th- this is where, you know, the, the difference meets. Like some guys kind of wilt under that pressure, back to back years. And it's almost like he has willed

• 5:08Speaker 01

  himself like, no, I, I'm, I'm that guy. I've arrived and I'm going to prove it and I'm not going to be denied. That's how he's playing. This is as physical and as tough as I've ever seen him play and he's playing magnificently.

• 5:24Bill Simmons?

  I went to the two Indiana games and I thought, especially in the second half of game four, he really took it to Siakam. And he took it to him physically and just athletically, everything. But really physically, that's the big difference I've noticed just in seeing him in person over the course of the last couple of years is he's starting to use his body in a different way, combined with the speed. And now guys are playing off him because they, they know they're going to lose the, the bounce off stuff. But I remember, you know, not to bring Giannis into this so early, but, um, I remember when Giannis started to figure that out, first couple of years of his career, where he had the athleticism, but as he got stronger, he figured out how to use his body and bounce off dudes. And it feels like that's happening for, uh, for Williams. You've gone against him. You went

• 6:07Bill Simmons?

  against him in the cup. By the way, congrats on the commissioner's cup. Uh, we, I, yeah, we haven't had you on the pod since you won the commissioner's cup.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  We haven't talked since then. My gosh. Well, thank you. That's forever ago.

• 6:19Bill Simmons?

  Did you bring the trophy to Florida or did you keep it in your house?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  I, I kept it in Milwaukee, right where it should belong. You know?

• 6:27Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Well, congrats on that.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. And I will say our thoughts going into that game and we got away with it. Our size kind of ate them up like we were the more physical team. You can see that. We knew we had to make it a physical contest. We knew going into that game, if we made it about athleticism and speed, then we had no chance. But if we made it about size and power, that they had no chance. And that's why we won that game. What I'm impressed with with Williams and Shay, I don't think we we talk enough about Shay. Is not only do they play through the physical contact now, but they get their balance back. See, a lot of people can take a hit. Most people can't get back on balance and take a shot.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  That little turnaround, the little shimmy turnaround that he shot towards, I think it was the end of the third or the beginning of the fourth, he didn't have that game. He didn't have that mid-season. And now he's still adding as the playoffs is going on. So it's pretty impressive.

• 7:28Bill Simmons?

  So do you think they learned anything from that Comerians Cup game? As weird as that question is because I remember we were talking about that during the holidays and you were like, yeah, we we were able to overpower them. I'm not sure anyone's overpowering this version of the Thunder, right?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  No, and I do think, you know, it's funny when Mark said after that game, something this is a lesson that we that we'll put into our bag and and that we've learned that there's another brand of physicality that we're gonna have to come up with. And I thought, you know, I don't know if that game mattered. It did matter, but I don't know if that game taught him anything. But I do know that they put that in and said, we cannot let a team just play bully ball against us. And that's what we we virtually did.

• 8:09Bill Simmons?

  So what did you see from tonight? You know, Indiana dominates OKC. Well, they didn't dominate, but the first three quarters of game four, they're in control of the game. It feels like they have it. They're up 10 for like three minutes near the end of the third quarter and they can't kind of put the game away. OKC can't hit a three, you know, and then OKC brings the game back with their defense. What was different about tonight?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Well, first, the game the other night, I thought that was the first time Indiana looked up and start thinking results for a second, you know, and it happens in the finals, man. You, you look at that scoreboard and you're thinking, man, we win this game, we won away. I, I thought Indiana played differently in the fourth quarter.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  I thought they blew it to end the third. I think I text you and said, wow, this game should be a 10 to 12 point game. And it's now six or four, or whatever it was, and that allowed Oklahoma back in it. And you know, as good as Indiana is down the stretch, Oklahoma is pretty good because they have Shay. And that's, that was Shay's game to me the other night. Tonight's was Jalen's game. Today was a different pace. What they do, Bill, they don't stop, you know, they just keep coming. They keep coming, they keep playing, they keep playing, and then eventually you wear down. I thought there were points in the game tonight that Oklahoma was close to going to the other way. You know, Indiana would turn the ball over, someone would take a bad shot, which Indiana did more tonight than I've seen all year.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  And then Jalen Williams just took the game over. So that's the difference.

• 9:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I had written down, so it was, they got it to two. The first part of the fourth quarter with that incredible, TJ McConnell brings him back in the third quarter. He's 15, he's doing every, he's playing that, it's like TJ McConnell greatest hits, basically. They got it to two. OKC misses, big offensive rebound, swings out to Jalen Williams, he hits a three. Then turnover, they get a fast break, Wallace layup, all of a sudden it's seven again. So there was a split second where it felt like, oh my God, Indiana is going to do the thing they did for the first three rounds. And then it just flipped almost immediately. I mean, the offensive rebounds in this game, at one point, there was 32 combined. I'm just seeing what they, what we ended with. We ended with.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  You know what it was though?

• 10:31Bill Simmons?

  37 offensive rebounds, Doc, for 37 in a game for both sides.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  But none of them were at their rim. It felt like because there were a lot of long threes, there were a lot of long rebounds. And there was a stretch where Indiana was getting off of. I thought Matherin did a great job on the glass, just collecting them. They're just scrapping. But then I thought Harden sign got a huge one. You know, both teams are really working the glass because what what's going on in this series, it seems like there's a stretch in every game where one team goes small and the other team is bigger and the bigger team dominates the glass. And that happened again tonight.

• 11:14Bill Simmons?

  So we watched game one of Celtics Knicks together and you were calling out all the hunting that was going on on both sides, right? And you know, that was pretty early in a series for two teams to try to figure out what they want to do offensively. As this series went along, we had game four where they tried to do the with SGA setting screens for Jalen Williams, them trying to do that two man game. That was the only way to unlock how bad their three point shooting was. What did you, what did they figure out tonight? Because it seemed like a lot of it was Jalen Williams just going downhill and Shay, they scored most of the points. And then Wallace and Wiggins, I think they had like six threes between them. That's it. But did you see anything else they figured out?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought dribble penetration. I thought Oklahoma made a concerted effort, especially early in the game to get to the paint. And they got to the paint and made plays, not necessarily shoot the ball. You know, Shay had a very assist night. That didn't take but one. But he had, he had more assists tonight. And I thought they set the tone early with their dribble penetration. And those guys made shots, right? And then down the stretch, because the other guys were making shots, it felt like Indiana, they didn't leave guys as easy as they've been leaving guys. They were worried about Oklahoma making threes tonight. And that allowed Jalen Williams and Shay to get to their elbows and make shots, you know, and that was the difference. I thought the dribble penetration, they clearly came into this game thinking, let's get to the paint.

• 12:40Bill Simmons?

  So they had a 40 32 lead with eight minutes left in the second quarter. 40 points for OKC. They had 12 assists. They had 10 on game four. So you're right. It was like they made a concerted effort. The ball's got to move. When they moved the ball. And that just opens up. Yeah, that's, that's, that's what falls apart on the road, I think.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I thought, we keep going back to game four. I kept thinking in game four, uh, we, a, a very important stat for coaches is shot quality. Like your shot quality, like, you know, you can, you can win a game and have poor shot quality because you've had shot makers and Oklahoma wins a lot of games. Uh, because Shay and Jalen Williams are able to make tough shots. But when you watch that game four, every shot Indiana took was wide open. And they got it from ball movement and making the next shot. And every shot Oklahoma took was contested and tough. And that's how Indiana got that big lead. And then in the fourth quarter, it flipped. And then it carried back over to tonight.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  Oklahoma was making plays for each other. They were making the extra pass. Indiana always plays that way. So they still got theirs. The difference is Oklahoma's shot quality tonight was really good. And it's because they made extra passes.

• 13:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So game, uh, the second half of game four was just about as good defensively as I've ever seen anyone play in person. It was, it was crazy. And it got to the point where it just felt like over and over again with seven seconds left on the shot clock. Indiana was 30 feet from the basket, trying to figure out, okay, now I, I guess I gotta get a shot up. They carried that over into the first half. I felt like, okay, see.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  They really did. And, and Bill, the biggest difference is that Oklahoma has a guy. Like, they, they can play low shot clock games because they have two guys really with Jalen Williams and, and, uh, and Shay. Indiana, that's the one thing that they really don't have. Uh, they have a lot of guys that make plays, but they don't have the one guy. Uh, maybe Siakam, uh, because you give the ball to Siakam on the elbow in the right place. He's, he's pretty dynamic, right? But, but other than that, they don't, that's not how they play. Um, they don't play the ISO into the clock game. And, and Oklahoma can do that. And so that's been the difference since, you know, mid second half of game four so far. And it, and it showed itself today again.

• 15:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, so when you hear. Okay, say I don't know if they're the best defense I've ever seen, but they they'd be one of the first ones I'd think of.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Well, I faced the Bulls.

• 15:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing. So I I saw the nine, I saw the 90s Bulls. The you're talking about oh, four Pistons. There's there's been some great ones over the years.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Were were physical. You know, so they they had a brand. Our 2008 Celtics were tough. But I still listen, I I played against all of them. And that one year with the Bulls. You know, Ron Harper.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Scottie Pippen.

• 15:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Dennis Rodman, Michael Jordan. I mean.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Those are four elite, elite, elite defenders. I don't think there was a better defensive team than that. With their size and quickness. But this team is similar. They they rival it a little bit.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  And they're they're they come in droves like the Bulls when you you could stop at four or five. They they're seven, eight deep defensively. You don't hear that very often when you talk about teams. Usually the great defensive teams, they have a one or two guys that are great defensively. Then everybody else are more team defenders. What separates Oklahoma and you could put Indiana, who is very underrated defensively. They have a ton of solid individual defensive players. And that's what makes this series so intriguing.

• 16:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the 90s Bulls because it's the only other time I've ever seen that in person of of people, multiple guys picking up ball handlers at midcourt. And it almost seeming like defensive backs like jamming the line of scrimmage on receivers and the receivers being unable to get off the line of scrimmage like what they were doing to Haliburton. And today he was hurt, which we'll talk about in a second, but

• 16:59Bill Simmons?

  he wasn't. Not only was he not getting the spots he wanted to go to, they were disrupting them 45 feet from the basket. Which is what the what those both teams used to do. They used to be like two pit bulls wait waiting for people at midcourt.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  One of the things the Bulls that that I don't think any other team has ever done in the history of. The game is the way they trap. You know, usually what you do is you send a guy to the sideline and then you you bring them back to the middle and you trap. The Bulls actually would send a guy to the sideline and as a guard, and I remember this, you thought, okay, now I can beat them down the sideline. But the guy guarding you would actually beat you to the sideline and then you would turn back and there's another defender and you're basically in in the web. It's over. Uh, no one's ever been able to do that type of trapping in the front court. Uh, they did it in the backcourt. They did it all the time.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Um, and I thought they did one other thing that no one ever talks about. We actually discussed it once. They would trap the passer that was going to throw it to the post. If you remember that against Orlando, they they figured out, okay, they're going to always throw it to the wing to throw it to Shaq. But so what they did, they trapped the passer and the passer now is throwing it out away. He forgets about Shaq. By the time they got it to Shaq, it's three seconds on the clock. I thought that was genius. Um, I mean, that was feel, but that was really, they had four pit bulls that could get away with it and I've never seen a team do that. I will say Oklahoma, they don't do that, but they have enough defenders that they may be able to get away with something like that.

• 18:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would say the difference between them and the Bulls defensively, the Bulls probably had the higher ceiling with those four. But there's a relentlessness because they just bring more guys in. It's like, yeah, this guy's in, really? And and it just kind of never stops.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Caruso, can you imagine? You're already struggling trying to score and then they bring Caruso in. You know, that is unbelievable when you think about.

• 19:04Bill Simmons?

  So as a coach, because you're you're coaching the Milwaukee Bucks right now and you're in this league that has Oklahoma City in it, that I don't even feel like is the team they're going to be two, three years from now, right? This is they're at like the start of whatever journey it is. I don't know if it's going to be two years, five years, seven years, but it's the beginning of it. When you see that they're already at this point now, how many teams can you remember since you've been playing or coaching where you're going, oh shit? Not only are they the best team right now, but we're not even where we're going to go yet.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Well, listen, we both been around this league a long time and you're right today. But you know this league, I still remember Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson and Mike Brain talking about the Oklahoma City Thunder and when they are losing to Miami, well, this is a tough loss, but they'll be back here over and over again. This is the first time they've been back. So you can never take it for granted. And they also have some things coming up called max contracts and paying guys. And you know, what Sam has done is amazing when you think about it. He's done this without, you know, shade really. But next year, after

• 20:24Speaker 01

  this season, or in a year, they're gonna have to start paying guys. And then all of a sudden, they probably won't be as deep as they are now because they're gonna have to make some tough decisions. They done this once and they decided on, who did they decide on over Harden? I can't remember that the center that's

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  It was Harden and they kept Ibaka and Perkins, basically.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they kept Ibaka at the time over Harden, which turned out to be, you know, not the best decision in the world. And I think honestly, I thought they felt like Harden wanted to go somewhere and have his own team. So, you know, they were making the decisions more about team building than just about individual talent. So it looks a lot worse than what it actually is. But that's the only thing that's gonna slow this team down. And like, you know, I'm a coach in NBA. I want to win a title, right? You know, the earliest, if Oklahoma City wins this one, then they've been made, you know, I always use that word, you've been made. And now you're gonna have to deal with them.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Nothing, once you win, nothing can shake your confidence. The only way you knock them out now is you're gonna have to kill them. So this series isn't over, but we do know, and that's gonna happen with either team that wins it, but especially Oklahoma, because they're so young.

• 21:50Bill Simmons?

  We'll take a quick break, come back, talk about Halliburton. This episode is brought to you by Verbo Private Vacation Rentals. Verbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say, if you wanted to go catch a couple of baseball games in Boston, take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything. You can go book a Verbo in Cape Cod for a week. The world is your oyster, or your lobster roll, or clam chowder. Really, it has shells, gills, and it's indigenous to the Atlantic. It's your edible metaphor of choice. They're crustacean crazy around there. Guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200. You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish. Hope you're not allergic. Next vacation, stay longer and save.

• 22:35Bill Simmons?

  Make it a Verbo. Halliburton was clearly hurt. I don't know when it happened.

• 22:41Bill Simmons?

  And we live in this culture, especially when there's time between games, when whoever didn't play well in the previous finals game, that's a person that just takes all the shit for the next 36 hours. He didn't look right. It's interesting watching this in a 2025 context, because we've seen some awesome players now have calf strains, try to play through them, and then something more horrible happens, right? Durant was the most famous example. Tatum, in the Knicks series, I don't think his legs were 100% before that happened. So in the back of your head, you're watching this. And on the one hand, especially your generation, it's like, you're hurt, get out there, keep playing, you gotta help the team. But that has become the scariest injury, I feel like, in sports now. When somebody has calf strain and they're stretching it out,

• 23:25Bill Simmons?

  and I'm just like, yo, be careful. He didn't look the same. I don't know when the injury was, but can Indiana beat them with a compromised Haliburton? I would say no way.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  They can't beat them without Haliburton being solid. The one thing I will say is Haliburton is never gonna be that guy that gives you 30. It's just not in his DNA. He can at times. But what Haliburton does is so underrated to me, Bill, because he plays the right way. There was, in game three...

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I think it was game three, whatever, whichever game, game four, the game they won. So game three.

• 24:04Bill Simmons?

  Game three.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Haliburton made back to back threes, I think, and the ball swung to him and 90% of the league would have taken the shot. He checked, he checked and, and he pump faked, drove to the basket and he got Sal Alkma wide open shot. And that's who he is. You know, he wants to make plays. That's why Indiana plays right because their best player always plays right. Uh, the problem with that is now you're in the finals and there's a microscope on you to score. That's not what he is. You know, he can score and there's going to be games that he has big games. Um, but what he can do is run a basketball team. And that's why Indiana is where they're at is because the way Haliburton plays.

• 24:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I've been saying that on my podcast for the whole finals that when people are like, he's got to step up. They need him to score more. I'm just like, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of who he is. We, Steve Nash, you coached Chris Paul. Chris Paul didn't want to score 35 points in a finals game. He wanted to have 20 and 12 or 18 and 14. That's who he is. If Chris Paul was taking 20 to 25 shots in a game, odds are it was going badly for you, right?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, even Magic, you know?

• 25:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Magic Johnson, I mean, uh, Magic could score and when, when, you know, the difference was when he wanted to score, he could just score. You know, he's just bigger than everybody, but at the end of the day, yeah, at the end of the day, you know, the games, game six Philadelphia, uh, his rookie year, he proved, yeah, I can score when I need to. But what he wanted to do is, is, is make everybody on his team better. And he did that. And that's why they won.

• 25:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So I don't know. When people criticize him for the scoring, I'm like, all right. But, but he, uh, I don't think he had the same explosiveness and, you know, this is one of the things I wanted-

• 25:53Speaker 01

  I don't think he's had it for two games. I, I think it's, I don't think this injury happened tonight.

• 25:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Um, I think this has been going on for at least two games now.

• 26:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, this is one of the things I wanted to ask you because you played in the eighties and nineties and obviously there's more, there's definitely more running. The defense is a little fiercer now. You've got more ground to cover. And some of these games, like I, I was just in disbelief in game three and four, just being there, how hard everyone plays for two and a half hours. And how fast everyone's going and is is basketball becoming unsustainable at the speed we're playing it? Are we are we actually putting too much on these dudes? Because when you watch it, it's like, I don't understand how they're how these guys are upright after two hours. When you're watching it just as a coach.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  No, but you do remember in the 70s, every team shot 100 shots. Both teams always got 100 field goals a night. Now, there was no three point line and people took shots quicker. So the game was at a faster pace. And then when the three point line came in, shooting percentages plummeted, scoring plummeted, and now it's kind of caught back up. It's the 70s with a three point line. That's basically what has happened now.

• 27:10Bill Simmons?

  But do you feel like it's as physical as the 70s though?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  No, but I do think one thing I love what the league did mid season last year. Physicality is back. It's not what it was. Because I do think, and that's just hard for me to say, there was a line that was crossed at some point where the game got so physical, it became ugly. But I love how they they're officiating the games. I get so upset when there's attacking foul that they don't call that they call, like the two flagrants in the game, game four or game three were ridiculous. You know, I didn't like either one of them. But other than that, so the game is more physical, not like the 70s. The pace is faster, the

• 27:59Speaker 01

  athletes are bigger and faster. And yeah, Bill, you can make a case. Can every team sustain the speed and the pace that the Pacers and Oklahoma are playing at? I guess the other argument to that is yes, because Oklahoma's done it, and they're healthy. Indiana has done it. Now, Indiana had a ton of injuries all year, but they're healthy. They're one of the healthier teams in the NBA right now, these two teams that are playing. And probably because to me, they did play at this pace all year. You know, they they didn't decondition when the season starts. And I think that happens a lot in our league because we start resting. I think a lot of guys decondition when the season started.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  And and they're not ramped up right. And one of the things a lot of teams are going to now, we're starting to ramp up for the playoffs. That's what we should have been doing for the last six or seven years, and we got away from that. And I think it's important.

• 28:53Bill Simmons?

  You know, when you came back to coaching last year, you broke my heart and you loved the podcast. You, one of the things you were telling me was, one of the things you were telling me was, uh, this Indiana is no joke. Like the way they pressure the ball, the pace that they play with, I'm kind of shocked like how effective it is.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  Like especially like how they go 94 feet against the other team's guards and you were like, I don't think people realize how hard it is to play them. And then of course they made the Eastern Finals last year, but it seemed like you were, they were on your radar basically the whole time you're the Bucks coach. And then of course you played them in the playoffs. You don't have Dame.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But honestly, Bill, we played them the one time and I came away from that game. It's funny. I called, Cassell, who I talk to still probably way too much. Uh, and I said, Sammy, you guys don't want to see Indiana. They, they are, they will wear you out. And even if you win the series, you may not have anything left to beat the next team. That's just how they play.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  And you know, one thing we, we could do to eliminate it a little bit this year playoffs is we have Yanis. And there's nobody that's going to pressure Yanis or pick him up. So we had kind of a free pass against them this year. Last year we didn't have Yanis and now, you know, Dame and the guards, they were worn out. Now they didn't play but two games, but they wore our guards down and you saw them do it against New York. You saw them do it again this year. I mean, Jalen Brunson, looked exhausted at the end of that series this year. And that's like, you look at Shea at times now, you know, there's points in the game, uh, they've already had to change their substitution pattern. Oklahoma has, so they can have Shea fresh at the end of games.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  That's all from that constant pressure and they're relentless with it. They don't let up ever. Uh, and it's rough.

• 30:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I noticed that game four. There was a moment in that game where SGA looked like, kinda like spent. And he was able to get the second wind and come back in the fourth quarter, but that was the, that was the only time I really thought Indiana was, had a chance to actually win the title. It was during that third quarter. It was mostly because of how Shay just looked like a boxer who was like, oh shit, I got three rounds left. He just had that vibe to him, but he figured it out.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  Funny you said that. I'm watching the game with Austin and Seth. And Austin looked at Seth and says, oh my God, Indiana's about to win the world championship. And that's how you felt in the middle of that third quarter. And then Oklahoma took that away. You gotta give Mark a lot of credit though, because Mark does not change his rotations very often, and he did in that game. And he rested Shay, if you remember, the beginning of the fourth, and then took him out one more time. And I thought that was, that was huge for Shay and Oklahoma to win that game, was that little bit of rest.

• 31:57Bill Simmons?

  Did you think Indiana was this good? Or did they go up a level as this, as these four rounds went along? Did they, did they kinda push their ceiling up a couple floors?

• 32:08Speaker 01

  I've always said this, Bill, and the only people that can understand this is people who have gone all the way to the finals. If you look, if you ask every coach that has ever been in the finals, about their team at the finals and when they started the playoffs, they will tell you, we were a different team by the time we got to the finals. You grow so much, you grow each round. You find things about your team as a coach, the players find things about themselves. Each round, teams get closer and closer. I always say, first round, every player is still trying to show everybody they can play.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  They're still worried about half the teams that aren't, you know, the made teams. They're worried about contracts and all the BS they shouldn't be worried about. Then they win that round and all of a sudden, teams get a little closer. Then they get through that round and they get to the Eastern or Western Finals. You are a completely different team. And then when you win that round, you go to a level where there's no more I. You never hear about selfish. How often do you hear about selfish play in the finals? You just don't see it very often and, and I really believe each team grows. Indiana was good. They were playing great coming into the playoffs. Uh, they beat us. Uh, they beat Cleveland and they jumped on Cleveland. Um, they beat the Knicks.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  And if you ask Rick Carlisle right now, he would tell you, I believed in this team, but we're way better now than we were in the first round. And that's what happens. You keep growing. That's why when, when you have a team even like us, you know, Dame, I just kept looking at our team and I think a lot of coaches believe, and, and I know that because I've been there twice to the finals. I'm looking at our team and I'm looking at like Gary Trent, A.J. Green and all those guys. I'm like, man, each round, if we can get these guys, they're just gonna keep getting better and better and better. And then what happens? They bring that back next year. Um, you bring all the ATOs back next year. You don't have to waste half your training camp, put in new stuff.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  You've already done it throughout the playoffs and you jump and you, it gives you a head start. Right? Um, and that's where Indiana's at and that's where Oklahoma's at now.

• 34:24Bill Simmons?

  And that's where some of the teams that didn't make it, there was some hump that they didn't get over. Yeah, I mean, you, you weren't surprised by the Indiana Cleveland series. And part of it was Garland was hurt, but you thought, you just thought that was a scary matchup for Cleveland. But you, even you couldn't, even you couldn't have thought Indiana was gonna do that though.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I did. I said it out loud that Indiana was gonna win that series. Uh, because I thought their guard pressure, they're one of the few teams that can match up to the Cleveland guards. Uh, but then, you know, Cleveland had major injuries coming into that. Uh, when they set guys in game one and two, I said, this series is over. You know, the one thing you can't have in the playoffs, your key guys can't be hurt. You have to be healthy to win. You're not, you're not winning anything injured in the NBA playoffs.

• 35:13Bill Simmons?

  You mean like when you didn't have Kevin Garnett in 2009 and when Perkins got hurt with two games left this season?

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to win. Let me put it that way.

• 35:24Bill Simmons?

  I vaguely remember that. This whole superstar, you know, like this 24/7 sports discourse and we talk about superstars and like, I think Haliburton's a superstar, but he doesn't have the stats that show he's a superstar. But you made the key point earlier that you can build a team around what he does, right?

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  Isn't that the definition of a superstar or am I crazy?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know what a superstar is anymore. That would be my definition. Anybody that can make their team a championship level team should be considered a superstar. You know, I use this and I've said this a million times, I'm sure I've said it on the pod before. One of the most meaningful things that have ever been told to me is by Bill Russell when I brought him in to talk to the team. And then he went back in the office, he was talking, I think it was to me and Kevin, and he said, if I'm the only one that can be great, our team can never be great. But if I can be great and give everybody on my team room to be great as well, we will be a dominant team.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And that's what I did. That's to me, there's a lot of guys, you know, you can make the case, there's a lot of guys, if you just told them to shoot every time, pass when they wanted to, they're gonna have all the stats, but they're the only ones that can be good on their team. And that has never worked in the history of the game. That has never worked. You have to give yourself to the team at some point to win. And, you know, Haliburton has done that. And when your best player does it, Bill, it's easy to coach. Everybody else falls in line because you can't say he won't do it because he will do it. And it makes it easier for coaches, for sure.

• 37:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I heard I was driving home today. I was listening to Justin and Eddie on Sirius NBA. They had Isaiah Hartenstein on and they were asking about, hey, your role was this way the first couple rounds in the finals. They haven't been using you as much and like, like, what is it like to just have your role changed like that in the biggest series of the season? And he's like, hey, we're just trying to win. And if I completely trust my coach at this point. And if he feels like we have better matchups than me, then I want our team to win. And that's it. That's the end of the discussion.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  That's who he is. Yeah, that's who he is. Anyway, but it definitely, I think, you know, I always look back when Rick said, I can't think of the kid's name when he was in Dallas, but he did it in the finals. He said someone that in the history, he had not been a very easy guy to coach, but they had made the finals now. And the guy just sat there. He's the happiest guy. Hey, I'm trying to win now. And that's what I'm talking about, about growth. It's funny though, I will say this, and I know we're kind of segueing off. When I bring this up, it also reminded me when you said they asked Hartenstein that is I've had this thing. And I'm going to bring up Tom Thibodeau.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  That I think no team should ever do when you lose, like in the first or second or third round.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  To have exit meetings the next day. After you lose, because what happens is the Hartenstein conversation comes up.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  You know, with your front office guys, the problem is you just lost in the second round. Then that is happy. You know what I mean? And then when they say, you know, tell me about the coach. There's going to be about four or five guys that really love you because you showed them love and you played them more. But there's going to be four or five guys who were on your side. That may no longer be on your side when those meetings happen. I've long said. Exit meetings need a month before we have them. Because when you have them the next day, the coach is in trouble.

• 39:24Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  And, you know, I will say Tibbs and I did talk after, after he was fired. And that absolutely came up like it couldn't have been anything good that came out of those meetings. And, and so it's interesting. We were talking about Hartenstein now in the finals. Coach can do anything, you know, you, you know, you remember in, in two 10, I think we're in the Eastern Finals. I think I played Nate and Baby to finish the game and I didn't bring Kevin, those guys back in. We won the game and no one cared because we were trying to win, you know. Uh, but when it happens earlier and you lose, guys don't handle that as well as they do when you get to the finals.

• 40:04Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying maybe the Knicks shouldn't have fired Tom Thibodeau after he made the Final Four?

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:09Bill Simmons?

  Won ten claps?

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Obviously, you know, he only worked for me for a long time. So that one, that, you know, it's funny, it stings you just as much, not as much as it stung Tibbs, but you know, firing is hard. I've been fired three times and, you know, and, and when it happens, you know, especially when it happens to one of your guys, you know, my guys are Tibbs, Ty Lou, when it happens to guys like that, it really bothers you because you know what they are. You know, both of them are just unbelievable coaches. And I always use the, the Utah model. The reason Utah stayed good for so long, they never panicked. Um, they didn't fire Jerry Sloan because he couldn't get to the finals. They knew he could coach. There's certain franchises, Boston really, for the most part, the Celtics, they don't make changes. Once

• 40:55Speaker 01

  they think they have the right coach, a good coach, they're, they're riding because they know they can scout better, uh, they can draft better, uh, they can make trades better because they know exactly what they're looking for. And, you know, I thought the Knicks were on their way to that and now Tibbs is gone.

• 41:12Bill Simmons?

  Well, you, I mean, you're one of the leaders of the coaching contingent. It's a league now that I think the five longest tenured coaches, three of them got the job in 2020, right? And then you have Spoh and you have Steve Kerr, the other two. And at this point, you're probably in the top 10 longest tenured coaches. I think you just got there a year and a half ago.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Somebody told me I was 12. Someone told me I was 12, which, when you think about it, that's insane. That's nuts.

• 41:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but here's the question. Because you know that, uh, you know, it's only going to get worse. The salaries are going to go up, right? We're going to have this, this, whatever happens as the media rights money keeps coming in and we're going to have guys making

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:58Bill Simmons?

  60, 65, 70 million a year.

• 42:03Bill Simmons?

  If they don't like their coach, who's gonna win that one? It's, it's not gonna be the coach.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  It, it always should be the coach, you know? I tell coaches that, uh, you know, when I speak and I'm speaking at a coaching clinic in Vegas, uh, I'm the first one to tell them like, listen, our job is to win, period. Our job is to make players better, but at the end of the day, even if you do that, you're still gonna get fired sometimes and it's just part of it. I mean, I could, I could look at the Philadelphia situation and say, we lost to the Boston Celtics. No one picked us to win. We took them to seven game. You know, two years before I got there, they got swept and now we're, we're trying to win these some finals, but at the end of the day, you're not gonna trade players away.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  If it comes down to that, it's always gonna be the coach and that's just the way it is. And I tell them, like even Tibbs, you know, Tibbs is a big boy. He got it. Like, you know, it's not like you're gonna hear him gripe about it or anything like that. It's not fair, but it's part of our job and we have to understand that. That's the tough part of the NBA.

• 43:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and it might be a five-year job at this point. And if you last longer than four to five years, it's, it's a borderline miracle. We gotta take one more break and then I want to talk about SGA quick. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027.

• 43:53Bill Simmons?

  Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 44:23Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. So when you first started coming on this podcast a couple of years ago, I remember we had a long conversation about SGA. What did you see when, you know, when you coached him on the Clippers? When he was a young pup, they trade him. You make the point, hey, this guy's going to be really good. I wouldn't put him in the trade. They have to do it because it's their chance to get Kawhi. And Paul George made them one of the favorites. They throw in a bunch of picks. And then when we talked about this two years ago,

• 45:07Bill Simmons?

  this is when he was becoming a 30-point scorer. He was clearly a special player, is going to be first team all NBA. But then this year it goes up a level. And now he's having one of the best start to finish guard seasons in the history of the position, you know?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  It's really good.

• 45:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It's, and it's been steady. It's been consistent. The team really takes on his personality. It's really interesting to watch in person. It's just their bench. It's all of these quiet assassins. He's a quiet assassin. Even, he barely even talks to the refs. Just kind of does his job. He doesn't talk shit to the other players. He just goes, goes, goes. And technically, um, his footwork, uh, his shots, like that shot you mentioned earlier, when he, he just had McConnell, McConnell, McConnell, then he has that little fall away on the foul line on him.

• 45:57Bill Simmons?

  He's one of the best scoring guards I've ever seen. Wait, did you, did you see this? Cause I know you saw greatness in him, but not this.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I loved him. Yeah, I loved him. I told you that. I told you that three years ago. But I mean, come on. I mean, no one saw this. I, I will say, and we talked about Sam Cassell earlier. Sam was, was, was really high on him and almost devastated when we were going to trade him. You know, um, I remember us talking that night because I had to make the call, you know? Bill, I guarantee you, uh, I know I remember it. I know where I was at, uh, because, uh, when the trade finally went down, Lawrence calls me and tells me Shay's in the trade. You know, it's, it's so funny, Bill. I was so happy that, uh, we got Kawhi and I was.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  It bothered me to make that call to Shay and I've shared that that was a tough call.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  And he handled it like such a pro, but you also felt that it was like this, I'm gonna make you pay for this. Trade. That's how you felt. I called Sam and Sam had just talked to him as well. And Sam says, I tell you, we just gave away an assassin. And it's, it's, we better win it because this kid's, he's gonna come back and haunt all of us. And you know, I'm so happy for him, Bill, because he reminds me a lot of Maxey. It's funny as a coach, you have some of these young guys that are just sponges.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  He never, I coached Shay hard. I coached Maxey hard and both of them could take it.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Wanted more. They wanted to learn. They just both are very similar. You think they're these nice guys like Shay, as you said, he comes off as this nice guy. Shay's a stone blooded killer. He does not care about making you happy when you get on the floor. And he had that when he was a rookie. Now the way he's playing now, I don't think anyone saw that.

• 48:17Bill Simmons?

  The footwork and the consistency in how the ball never hits the rim on half of these shots. It's just, there's something eerie about it. I've never seen anything like it.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Or his pace. You can't speed him up. You're not going to speed him up. Where he's gotten so much stronger and to me, his ability, you know, he gets away with that push, but he also gets pushed. And what I'm surprised by, I think Nim Hard has done an amazing job in these both, yet.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  She's averaging 30, you know, you know what I mean? And they're doing an amazing job defending him. His balance is unbelievable, as good as any player I've ever seen. Uh, at being able to take a hit, get his feet and be able to take a shot with rhythm. And he can do it left or right. Um, but that was the one thing that stood out is his rookie year was his, his pace. It, it, it was obvious like, man, this guy has NBA pace and he's never played an NBA game. It's, it's innate, it's in him. Uh, what he didn't have was a size and physicality and now he has that as well.

• 49:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm trying to think of other guys like that because I've, we talked about this. I was going to those games that rookie year, I always thought he was going to be almost like more of a Nemhar type. Like a defense glue guys fill in the spot, good playmaker, but I never saw this going piece.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, footwork guys, Michael had that. You know, Michael just did it so quick and, and so athletically, uh, no one ever talked about his footwork. Michael's footwork was unbelievable. You know, how many times do you see him? He gets to his spot, he gets his balance. He just did it so quick and so fast that no one really, where Shay does it slower and takes his time. You know, Paul Pierce is, is similar in, in a lot of ways with his footwork and his timing. And, oh, you can go way back to like Kiki Vanderwees, great footwork. Shay has all that, but Shay's, the difference is what you said, his footwork. Uh, and then it's the last thing that he's done. Two years ago, you could force him to shoot threes. Now he's shooting that at a, at a high clip as well.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  And, and so that's made him virtually unguardable.

• 50:34Bill Simmons?

  So what happens in game six, you think?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Boy, I don't know. I, I really don't. I, I, I think the series may be over because I don't think Haliburton's helped.

• 50:43Bill Simmons?

  That's where I've landed as well.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but if Haliburton can, can give them a game, you know, I don't know who's going to win this. I, you know what I really want? I really want a game seven. You know, I, I, I love NBA basketball. Uh, I, I love the coaching part of it. I love the playing part of it, but I love watching big games. I love watching game sevens. Um, and I hope we have one. I think it'd be great. I think you would see two young teams. Um, and then let's say this as well. You know, I guess Shay is a superstar, right? And Haliburton is one.

• 51:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Shay is starting to be a household name now. But this is the first series in a long time that we haven't had a series with just at least one or two household names. It's been great.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  It's been great to watch. It really has. I think this has been an absolutely fantastic series. I think it's been coached great by both coaches. But I think you hit on it. And it's what I think that why ratings are up and the fans are enjoying it. There's two teams that are playing hard. The intensity of these games have been off the chart and it's great to watch.

• 51:57Bill Simmons?

  I don't care about the ratings because I feel like this is a one for us finals.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Bill Simmons?

  It's like for the, for the people who actually like basketball. It's not for like my mom where my mom's like, I heard LeBron's in the finals. I'll watch like all the casuals are out and this is just the hardcore. And by the way, like this has been the league's biggest problem for the entire decade is trying to create new stars, new teams. They put the same guys on, you know, you concede in Christmas. You guys didn't even make Christmas in December with Giannis.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Which is, which is awful.

• 52:29Bill Simmons?

  Right. Giannis is one of the people they should be pushing.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Come on ESPN.

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But I, but I think, you know, they're, they're creating new teams and, and new stars, hopefully. I, I, did you hear what Magic said on First Take? I actually thought this was really smart. He was talking about they're the dumb face in the league conversation, which I, I hate. But he was saying like, the true definition of a superstar is can you sell out an opposing building? Are people going to come to see you? And I was like, you know what? I think that, I think that actually is the definition. Can you sell out the other team's building? How many guys have done that in the last 40 years? It's, it's less than 10.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  It's not a lot. Yeah. I mean, I'm, if I, let's say I didn't coach in the league and I was just loved the ball, basketball, the way I loved it. I'm going to watch Steph Curry play every day, every chance I get. He's going to do something extraordinary. He moves without the ball. One of my favorite stats in NBA history, in the history of the game was Steph. The year Steph won the MVP, the year they won it, his first title. He had the ball in his hands 47% less than the year before.

• 53:41Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  And that just to me is that, you know, I say this term, our, our, our players cringe when I say it like, well, we, we watch film and I said, all right, guys, the first clip is coaches porn. I always call it coaches porn and it usually is some beautiful play.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  And you know, it's funny like Yanis and a couple of guys just love it. They, they'll say it now to the bench.

• 54:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Make sure that's on the mural. That's coaches porn.

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  Where, where Steph has it all the time, you know? So you can watch him play LeBron in his heyday, you know, just his passing. You, you, you would pay to watch him play Yanis, you would pay, you just would go and what is that? What are they going to do tonight? You know, but it's not a long list, you know?

• 54:30Bill Simmons?

  I mean, honestly, Katelyn Clark has it right now. I feel like in WNBA you could, she was out for two weeks and it felt like the league stopped.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Listen, Katelyn Clark is pistol Pete.

• 54:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  She really is. I, I, I can watch her. Yo, it's funny in college, everyone was mesmerized by her shooting. I'm like, that's the least of her game. It's her passing. And what it's a great example, what we talked about with Haliburton is when you watch Katelyn Clark's team play, they run the floor like there's no, you know why? Cause they know they're going to get the ball. They make cuts because they know they're going to get the ball. It's amazing. And, and that's, that's what a superstar does for his team right there. And yeah, she is a, she is an absolute superstar. She may be the biggest superstar in basketball, uh, right now, or, or top three.

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  At one point today, they ran two straight commercials with her during, during one of the breaks of the, uh, in the finals game tonight. I was like, oh, she's arrived. You have a superstar on your team that you guys have been just trying to trade for the last month, apparently by reports.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  All those, are you just offering Yanis is on eBay now? Does anyone want to make an offer?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  It's so ridiculous. And I've heard all these, you, you hear all this stuff and, oh, but you do, don't, you don't like it, you know, when you hear it because you know, it's not true, Bill. And, but it's still like your players here and everybody else hears it, you know? I, I remember telling you the story when I was in Boston, I'm on a treadmill, working out. That's when I could run still, you know? Running on a treadmill and they announced that the, the, the Boston Celtics are about to trade Rondo. I, I think he was to the Lakers or someone and I was like, what? And it was, it was absurd. Like we had never had any conversations, but Rondo heard it, you know? And, and so that's the only thing I don't like about all this now. It's, um, no,

• 56:26Speaker 01

  I don't know how many more times Giannis has to say he wants to be a Buck and he wants to win a title with a Buck and it, and it's so cool to me, you know? Uh, because it's not the way it's done anymore. Um, but with, with certain guys, you know, I don't think Steph Curry would ever leave Golden State, ever. Um, and I'm hoping obviously Giannis is the same way. That's the way he's been so far and it's been great. It's been awesome.

• 56:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I've been trying to tell people on the pod for the last month that first of all, he doesn't want to leave. Second of all, you'd be crazy to trade him when the East is wide open. You have the best player in the conference and it just feels like, especially after watching the playoffs this year, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'd want Giannis in the East next year would be, would be my choice.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  I said this with, so I said this before the playoffs. I said, there's never been a better time that I can remember in the NBA that for you to win a title, meaning anyone.

• 57:25Bill Simmons?

  Right. Like 10, 11 teams, if things broke the right way, maybe.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  If things break the right, there's no dominant team right now. Oklahoma may become that if they win, but there's nobody you're scared of in the NBA. Um, you know? So right now Orlando makes a huge trade yesterday. There's going to be four or five of those this next year in the East and the West. Cause I, I think, listen, the West, the West gets a lot of love. I'm going to just stop there. Um, but I don't think there's any team, any East team was scared of a West team. If, if you know, know what I mean? Like I, I felt like if we got out of

• 58:08Speaker 01

  the East, you know, Oklahoma would have been the, the best team. That was the one team you're like, man, they're tough, but.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  I don't think there's a team, you know, we were worried about Denver, but they let a lot of guys go and they're not the same. There's no dominant team right now, but we have one of the dominant players and so we have a shot and so does the Knicks and, you know, Boston, we'll see by the end of the year if Tatum can come back. I hated that injury. I hated seeing it. But and in the West too, like, you know, Oklahoma, let's say they win it, Clippers, Denver, Lakers.

• 58:47Bill Simmons?

  Minnesota.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Golden State has a full year now with Jimmy.

• 58:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  It's wide open and that will be great for the league.

• 58:57Bill Simmons?

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• 1:00:06Bill Simmons?

  The Dame injury, among the worst injuries, you've, you've, from a coaching standpoint, where you know right away and you start doing the math and you're like, oh my God, not only is it for this year, but it could be like a huge part of next year, maybe all next year. Do we, is there any chance he comes back or you're not, you're staying out of it?

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  I'm staying out of it, but I do think, yeah, I think he'll come back by the end of the next season, you know, because he had it early enough in the playoffs. Um, but I gotta say this about Dame, Dame had two injuries, you know, um, you know, I jokingly told Dame, I cried twice for you, damn it, uh, in one year, uh, you know, and because when he had the blood clot, you know, there was, there was a moment when I got the news because I'm old and I know what blood clots usually mean. You know, so when I first heard the news, I literally, my eyes watered because I'm thinking this guy's about to get robbed of the rest of his career. Uh, and then within the next day, we find, okay, no, not career threatening. He's gonna be, he may even come

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  back. Um, and then when he went down and I walked out on that floor and the first thing he said to me was, man, I think I sprained my ankle. And I was, I didn't say anything, but I was, you know, I was looking at it, you know, I, my brain, I was thinking that wasn't an ankle. Uh, but let's, I remember saying, let's get you in the back. And that was it. And I think Darwin or someone came and grabbed him, but man, you just, the guy does everything you ask him to do. He does all the work and then bam, that happens. That is part of the game, you know, um, but that was a rough one for me to see.

• 1:01:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, it sounds like, I mean, the one thing from, from talking to you over the last year and a half, and so it really seems like you like the team, like the group of guys, like, like you guys had the right vibes and, um, you know, I even thought if, if you got by Indiana somehow, like, who knows, like, you were really optimistic. I was surprised.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  I love the group, you know, Giannis is one of those, like Kevin Garnett, superstars that, uh, you can coach him hard, but he's fun to coach. You know what I'm saying by that? That gave me life again. I needed that. And like Bobby, we just got a bunch of grownups. I keep saying that. We got a bunch of grownups and we got the right mix. I do believe teams, the old and the new, you need a mix of both. I think Oklahoma adding the Hardenstines and the Crusoes, you know, was huge for them. They needed the right. You can't, you know, teams make a mistake. They go on to just get any vet. You can't do that. You have to get the right vets and Oklahoma did that and you can see that.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Crusoe, game four, you know, we could talk about Shay and all that. Crusoe won game four for them. He single-handedly willed them to that game and that's that veteran leadership. He had won a title before. He knows what it takes. He does all the dirty work. And that's, that's how you feel. That's what I like about our team. We have young guys and AJ Green, Gary Trent still really young. But then we have older guys. You know, I had lunch with Brooke yesterday and, and like you can't get enough of those guys. Now we're in Orlando, so Brooke's at Disney, obviously. So you could find them and you could have lunch with them. But I think that's what makes it.

• 1:03:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I didn't talk, we didn't talk since you had this last season. Was there a player that you went against that you were just shocked by? You didn't realize until you were coaching how good somebody was or how good somebody had the potential to be? Anybody jump out?

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Brunson.

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  How come?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Jalen Brunson. I, I liked him, you know, in Dallas.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  You know, he played okay against me when he, the first year in Philly, but

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  when we played them, when I came, you know, and I'd done a couple of games, but when we played them, I think it was at home.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Last year and I was holy gosh, you, you, this guy is, he's good. Like he is, he's with his size, to be that unstoppable to me is just absolutely unbelievable. You worry about his health, uh, because the way he play, he plays almost, you know, running back basketball. If you know what I mean, everything's physical, everything's tough, but man, it's, he's way better than, than I thought he was.

• 1:04:52Bill Simmons?

  If you were the czar of the NBA, what, was there a rule change you would do? Is there anything that drove you crazy as a coach? So has the league evolved in a certain way that drives you nuts?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I, I like the way the league, uh, is evolving right now. I really do. I like that the game is getting more physical. I, I hate the fact that I have, if I use a challenge, um, in the first half, only have one left. I, I do think if I win a challenge, I should keep my challenges. I don't think I should lose them. And the only rule that I would change, um, is at the last play of a game should always be reviewed, whether you have a challenge or not.

• 1:05:35Bill Simmons?

  That's interesting. So like, so somebody makes a shot at the end, but you have no challenge. They just have to do it anyway.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you know, I kept thinking that Detroit Nick game, that was clearly a foul.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  And, and they missed and didn't call it. Wouldn't you be sick if that was game seven of the NBA finals and you didn't have a challenge? Uh, that, that would be, that would be awful. So I do think coaches should be able to keep their challenges, you know, uh, they get it right, they get it right. Uh, you should be able to keep it. And then the, the last play of the game should just be challenged. Uh, if it's close, the ref, the ref should be able to say, I want to take a look. And if they had have taken a look in that game, they would have called a foul and, and Detroit would have won that game. And, and so, you know, I do think, um, that's the one play that should just be challenged.

• 1:06:33Bill Simmons?

  What happened?

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  One more rule, one more rule.

• 1:06:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Out of bounds, out of bounds should just be done in Secaucus. We, we don't need headphones for that.

• 1:06:43Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Like, just look at it and make the choice that would save us five minutes a game. Which Al Michaels tells me all the time. You gotta, you gotta speed the end of the games up. So that would actually happen.

• 1:06:58Bill Simmons?

  What's the right number of games for the regular season?

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Well, I get into this.

• 1:07:03Bill Simmons?

  Just do it.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Seventy.

• 1:07:07Bill Simmons?

  That's what I have.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'd say seventy. Seventy is the perfect number. It really is. I think you should start the season later. You know, I loved that one lockout year. When we started it, that was, I think the first game was Christmas Day. I wouldn't do that. I would start at December 1st, just to get a rhythm. So by Christmas, you know, you can kind of have some big games, but seventy. And for me, it's been, I've always stayed on eighty-two, Bill. Because everybody else did it, you know? So you want to say eighty-two. But I do think the more we keep talking about this. I think at some point, we may have to have a serious discussion. Because no one wants to see injured basketball.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  We want to see healthy guys play. And the facts are, guys are getting injured more now. And we have to figure that out.

• 1:08:03Bill Simmons?

  Especially like lower leg injuries. Just feels like there's more than ever.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Jason Tatum was too young to have an Achilles. Period. And so that made no sense to me. And so there's something that's going on because there's more Achilles. There's more blood clots. There's something going on and we have to figure it out.

• 1:08:24Bill Simmons?

  All right, last question. Larry David, his Knicks team makes the final four and falls short. What was that roller coaster ride like in Texas? You know, you weren't in the same spot as he actually had a good Knicks team for months.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it was rough for him. You know, because he went to that game one. Indiana and they lost. And he left. He was supposed to be in the same seats a game too. And he couldn't do it. He just couldn't do it.

• 1:08:58Bill Simmons?

  He left the next morning. He was gone.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  He left the next morning. And so he calls me and says, I'm coming back because I want to play golf with my guys on Sunday. And I said, you're a freaking liar. That's, that is not why you're coming back. You're coming back because you're superstitious. And you're sitting in game one and they lost. And so you're trying to change the mojo. And that's Larry 101.

• 1:09:21Bill Simmons?

  He blamed himself for the loss.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  He did. He was miserable. He was miserable over that game. Uh, and he refused to go in game two because he didn't want, he just said, I want no parts of it.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  He's a real fan. Like he, he is into it. It's awesome.

• 1:09:40Bill Simmons?

  It was great to have the Knicks fans back, all the versions of them with the biggest fan base. I mean, you, you played there. You got to see it firsthand. But it's really like the all time craziest fan base. When it's going great, their chests are out, they're going nuts. As soon as it goes bad, they are the most despondent fan base you're ever going to have. They was the gambit of immersions.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Go New York, go. You know, I, I was at Nick and we had that run and, and that song, Go New York, Go. The city was on fire. It really was. And that's how you felt this year, you know? Uh, and I do think, you know, Doleen gets a lot of heat, but I don't know who's doing it. But whoever thought of bringing all the ex Knicks back to games, that was a genius move. Yeah. It was awesome. It was really awesome. Uh, we need one more guy to show up and then it's all done. Oakley.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  And good luck there.

• 1:10:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know if that's happening.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  It was, it was, that's.

• 1:10:34Bill Simmons?

  You might have to broker that one, Doc. All right. So you have.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  So you're in Orlando, you're, you're going to celebrate the commissioner's cup and Seth Curry's, uh, three point percentage title.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  How about that? Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:10:48Bill Simmons?

  No, the real known fact, Seth Curry, 46%, 49%, whatever it was, led the league.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have trophies at the Rivers house right now. You know, we, we have some hardware from regular season. So.

• 1:10:58Bill Simmons?

  How do we get him to Denver?

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I actually think the perfect place for him would be Golden State.

• 1:11:05Bill Simmons?

  Oh, is that possible?

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's possible or not. I, I, I don't know if either one of them would want it actually, but I do think, forget that. It has nothing to do with that. It's the way they play. He fits perfect.

• 1:11:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  You know, and I've said that for two or three years and, and whenever you bring it up in the family, they kind of, uh, but I do think it'd be sensational. It'd be great for him.

• 1:11:32Bill Simmons?

  I forgot to ask you, actually, do you think more teams are going to emulate this OKC, Indiana, fast-paced, nobody has the ball for too long, people keep cutting and moving? Is this going to be like a copycat thing with that?

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Well, everything in our league is copycat a little bit, as you know.

• 1:11:48Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  I do think not exactly the way they play, but I do think because of collective bargaining, uh, I think teams are starting to see, trying to have the loaded three-star team doesn't work anymore. So I do think you have two teams now that you can make a case. There's a superstar and then there's really, really, really good player. Uh, and then a lot of good players. I think that's the model you're going to see. I don't know if everyone's going to adopt the same style, but I do think that's what you're going to start seeing is that model of team.

• 1:12:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, not every team can do it, but it would have to be a team that has a bunch of guards, you know, and, and is unselfish, but I don't know. We'll see.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:29Bill Simmons?

  Um, all right. Doc Rivers, it was great to see you. I'll see you in LA.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  I miss you, man. People, people walk on the street and say, hey, get off this coaching, get back to the, get back to the podcast.

• 1:12:41Bill Simmons?

  I know. People love the pods.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  So we'll get back at some point, for sure.

• 1:12:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'll see you in LA, but say hi to the Curry family and the, and the Rivers family and all the, all the family members. But it was great to see you. Thanks for doing this with us.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Good seeing you.

• 1:12:55Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Eduardo Gahow as always. Thanks to Doc Rivers. Great to have him on. Really miss that guy. And I know I'm going to be Thursday night after game six live on YouTube. That's definitely happening. Might have another podcast midweek, not sure yet. New rewatchable is coming on Tuesday night where you're doing Marathon Man for New York City Month. So stay tuned for that. Don't forget you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and we are a video podcast on Spotify as well. I will see you in a couple of days.

• 1:13:43Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell.

• 1:14:23Bill Simmons?

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