E32 Michelle Kennedy - From Matchmaking to Motherhood

From co-CEO of Badoo, a dating-focused social network worth over a billion, to sitting on the advisory board for Bumble to launching her in own app in 2017 with co-founder of Deliveroo Greg Orlowski, Michelle Kennedy is a force to be reckoned with. She ... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Steven Bartlett?

  Michelle, thank you so much for joining me today. I've been very excited to do this podcast because we've not seen each other for a long time.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  A long time. You've changed your hat.

• 0:27Steven Bartlett?

  I know, it's actually in my bag.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 0:29Steven Bartlett?

  But this is Steve and then the other hat is Steven. So when I do like, you know, public stuff, I put on the Trilby style hat and then this is more cash. So I'm feeling cash today.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 0:39Steven Bartlett?

  Which is credit to yourself. So you are someone that I met several years ago when you were working on Badoo. And we had like a client supplier relationship back then. Badoo, as many people will know, is a billion pound.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:54Steven Bartlett?

  In the dating space and it's achieved tremendous success. You were the co-CEO of Badoo at one point. But since then, you've gone on to do some pretty inspiring things. And a number of my listeners on this podcast have been insisting I further the guests we've had on into other realms. And dating has been one of them. People have been in search of a real empowering, inspiring female CEO and leader. Because the feedback, speaking honestly, I've had is that we haven't had as many on. So I've got a lot of things I want to ask you today.

• 1:27Steven Bartlett?

  And all I ask, as I do with all my guests, is just for honesty as much as possible.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  I can't help that.

• 1:34Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  That's a good one.

• 1:36Steven Bartlett?

  So here's where I want to start to speed up the process of getting to know you before I dig into those elements. And it's a little game I play with all of my guests. And if you're up for it, of course, are you able to tell us your life story in 30 seconds? And this is a good way of filtering out the significant moments, et cetera. But are you up for it?

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 1:57Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, cool. So looking at the timer, three, two, one, go.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  I started life as a corporate lawyer. I moved into the dating industry. I became deputy CEO at Badoo, had a little boy, decided I needed to do something in the mother space, created Peanut. Peanut launched a year and a half ago and we have 350,000 mums using it.

• 2:19Steven Bartlett?

  You did that in sixteen seconds, that's.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Ah, that was a good one.

• 2:22Steven Bartlett?

  So Peanut, what is Peanut?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Peanut is an app to connect like minded women who happen to be mothers. And it's really thinking about how do we solve this issue of women who are entering this massive life stage and life change? And yet there was no product which is modern, cool, feels fresh and speaks to this entire generation of women who have an expectation that things will be mobile first, that they'll feel like it's for them and not feel like it's for their mum. Um, and take a move away from some of the slightly more old school forums and um, and other products out there and really think about creating something for this modern woman who happens to be a mother. Um, and that's Peanut.

• 3:04Steven Bartlett?

  If I'm a mother and I download Peanut and you're the CEO of Peanut, what are you hoping for me to come away with or get from Peanut in order for you as a CEO to consider it a success?

• 3:16Speaker 01

  I just want you to have an experience of finding someone who's like minded and to find support. They say it takes a village to raise your child, right? But we don't live in our village anymore. We live everywhere. We move for different reasons. Um, and so it's about finding that support network. If you make one valuable connection, if you get one piece of advice, if you meet your best mate, if you just feel better about the fact that you're up at two AM and there are, you know, thousands of other women doing the same as you, then it's a success for us.

• 3:48Steven Bartlett?

  Why are you trying to solve this problem? Why you?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Um, I had my little boy, uh, went back to work.

• 3:54Steven Bartlett?

  How old is your little boy now?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  He's gonna be four, he's four and a half, he's gonna be five in December, which blows my mind. Um, so I think when I met you, he was a babe. Um, and when I had him, I just felt frustrated by the products that were out there. There was nothing that I felt was relevant to me. And more importantly, I felt it was patronizing and a little bit infantilizing that the products that were out there aimed at women who are mothers. Just didn't respect the other parts of who she was as a woman. It didn't respect the fact that I was also a businesswoman or also a partner, sister, daughter, whatever it might be. You know, we're we're so many different things. Motherhood is definitely the best part of who I am, but it's not the only part. And so I wanted to create a product for other women who maybe felt the same.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Um, so why me? I took everything I know about dating and creating romantic relationships and applied it to women to help them find connections on a platonic basis. And then the product has evolved from there.

• 4:56Steven Bartlett?

  And you, do you have a co-founder?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Um, I do. Uh, my co-founder um is Greg Orlowski. He was the uh co-founder of Deliveroo. He's from a technical perspective. He's kind of left hands on. Um, these days we have a bigger team. Um, and it's, you know, still me kind of pushing forward on the on the vision and um the kind of the growth, because that's the part which is is so exciting and so important.

• 5:23Steven Bartlett?

  So are you the the only sort of full-time hands-on founder?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  I am.

• 5:27Steven Bartlett?

  Is that, how lonely is that?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  It's tough. It's really hard, actually. I don't think anyone really talks about how lonely it can be as a founder. Um, your job is hire, make sure there's enough cash, set the vision.

• 5:41Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  But part of all of that is keeping the team excited, upbeat, motivated. And that is great when things are great. And when things are feeling a bit tough

• 5:51Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  or you're having a tough day, you haven't really got anyone to share that with. Now, it doesn't mean that I can't, you know, share it with Greg or share it with with um, you know, a mentor or or other people. But um it can be quite challenging sometimes because it's all on you.

• 6:08Steven Bartlett?

  What are the things when it comes to um being an entrepreneur that? Are written in the, I don't know, the like, the fantasy, the like, because it's almost quite glamorized these days, the thought of like, starting your own business, there's, you know, so many quotes like, be your own boss, like, live your dream or someone else is going to live it for you. And it all kind, kind of frames it in this really positive aspirational light, but I'm sure as a founder yourself, and especially in the tech space, where it's particularly, there are particular challenges.

• 6:38Steven Bartlett?

  And in many respects in the tech space, it's almost like a, like a yes or no answer to the product. Whereas in my business, it's, uh, success is kind of a direct result of how good I am at selling and, um, you know, I, do you know what I mean? Whereas from running a tech business previously, it was really, does the market give a F about this?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:57Steven Bartlett?

  So what are the things as a tech founder that you think are inaccurate when you think about the perception of entrepreneurship?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  You know, it is a constant, constant, all-consuming, um, story. That means I wake up, I check Peanut and I check my emails. That's before I do anything else, before I go to sleep, sometimes in the middle of the night, I do the same. It is completely all-consuming. It is not a given that people will want to use your app just because you've created an app. It is not a given by any means. There are thousands of apps released on the App Store every day. And unless you have a really strong route to market, a really strong brand narrative, and you have product-market fit, there is absolutely no guarantee that anyone's going to use the product you're creating.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  And there are so many people that come to me, I've got an idea for an app and it always makes my heart sink a little bit because I'm always like, don't start with the app. Don't start there. Apps are really expensive to build. It's really hard unless you know what you're looking at. You're gonna like burn through money pretty quickly. There are ways to test what you want to build without having to go all in with the app, right? That's just a fact.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  And so I think that things that I know, getting visibility on an app store, really challenging, unless you know how you're going to do that, it's really hard. And that's a key factor in growth. Um, getting people to understand what you're doing and why you're different and why they should care, again, really challenging. Getting investment, you know, we're all very aware that it's hard to get investment as a woman, not impossible, but it is challenging. It has its own challenges. And. I suppose because you can only be what you can see. And if I can only see, like, you know, older white males around me who are controlling the chequebook, that can make it challenging for me in terms of

• 8:55Speaker 01

  how do I get in there? How do I have the confidence to go and pitch what I'm saying? How do they understand the product that I'm I'm um building?

• 9:03Steven Bartlett?

  Do you have self doubt because of that?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Oh, massive. But I have to say, it's a huge sweeping generalisation, right? I there are people that you meet all the time who won't get what you're doing, and that's fine.

• 9:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  There are people who you'll meet, they don't care that it's that I'm a woman, they don't care that this is a product for mums, they care about the market size and business opportunity and how I'm going to tackle the problem.

• 9:25Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  They're the people that you want on your side. They're the gems. And and they do exist, you just have to find them. Um. Self doubt is something that can consume you if you don't keep it in check.

• 9:38Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Um. And I suppose it's just having that element of what's the worst that can happen?

• 9:43Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Seriously, what's the worst that can happen? I can try and I can build something. People don't like it, I'll try again.

• 9:48Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  And I'll keep trying. Um. But that's not for the faint hearted.

• 9:53Steven Bartlett?

  Where does your desire to even try and build something come from? Why, why, why don't you just, and this is a question I ask, well, a lot of people, is why of all the stress that it is involved with being an entrepreneur, why don't you just get, you know, normal jobs, things, you know, like, you know?

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I I had a I was gonna say a normal job. There was nothing normal about my previous job, actually, but I had I worked for someone else. I worked as part of someone else's business. I created things for someone else's business. I loved every minute of it. I loved what I did. Um. But there came a point for me, and it doesn't happen to everyone, but there came a point for me where I wanted to go and try something because I had a concept. And I felt that there was a market that really deserved a product and deserved something better. And no one else was going to approach it in the way that I was. No one else is thinking about the dating industry and mums. Um. You know, the two are fairly like polar extremes. Um. No one was thinking about

• 10:56Speaker 01

  my thoughts about building the product or brand in the same way. Um. And I felt like that should be me to go and try it. Um.

• 11:05Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like if this wasn't to work out, let's say, you would try something else, though. And where does that desire to keep trying stuff come from? Because obviously, in this instance, in hindsight, you can say, oh, I tried it because I felt a problem. But really, your your perspective is to to try and build something from nothing, probably. That's what it sounds like.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  You know what I think? I never, I didn't always have this mindset. And I think it's really important to note that you can change your mindset. I trained as a lawyer and I was a corporate lawyer.

• 11:33Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Um. And I was doing a lot of M and A. And the very real fact is, as a lawyer, you are trained to spot risk. And you find the risk and you do everything you can to avoid the risk. And you know yourself, it's completely the opposite when you're an entrepreneur. You see it and you do it anyway.

• 11:48Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Be aware of it, but you're gonna do it. It was only through time that that mindset changed where I was like, okay, I I don't want to be the risk person anymore. I don't want to be that mindset. There are other ways to achieve things and. You know, Andre, it would do really change my mindset about that. And I owe him a lot in terms of challenging me to think in different ways. There were times that I despised what he had me doing.

• 12:13Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Because I didn't want to go out and door to door hawk an idea that he had. But actually, it was the best learning I ever had. Because I learnt to think about things in a different way. If everything went wrong with peanuts more, would I try something else? Yeah, I think that I really strongly believe if there's something wrong or there's a problem and. You want to fix it, why can't it be you?

• 12:37Steven Bartlett?

  Um hum.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Like, why can't you be the person to do it? And if that's a rhetoric that I want to pass on to my son, and if that's a rhetoric that I want other women to feel inspired by, then I have to stand by it.

• 12:46Steven Bartlett?

  And do you think it's, do you think it's harder for women to be successful entrepreneurs than it is for men?

• 12:51Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. Um. I think there are more challenges. Um. I think there are obstacles. I think it's becoming better. Um. I think that what's important is we keep having conversations about it. And we keep enabling women to feel able to try. Um. On my own personal um standpoint.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  I for a long time had a really, really big fear of failure. I still do to a certain extent, but that worry of if it all goes wrong. What will that mean about me and my capabilities and ah. And it's only actually by spending a lot of time with engineers when engineers are like. What that failing is how you get to the right answer. What are you talking about? But you kind of start to think, right, it doesn't matter. Um, so I, yeah, that's, I don't think it should be harder for women. I think there are obvious challenges, um, and I think we're having conversations trying to make it better.

• 13:44Steven Bartlett?

  I read somewhere um that of the ninety thousand Kickstarter's that was started over a certain period, I can't remember. Um, only thirty percent were started by women and the the general trend is that there are less. Um, female entrepreneurs than male entrepreneurs. Why is that in your mind? I know that it's a complicated set of factors, but.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  I think it's, you know, there is that Harvard study which says that um. Man and woman go for an interview for a job. Both uh the the woman is kind of has the qualifications for it, the man doesn't, the man gets the job because he goes in and. He kind of talks about his potential. And the woman goes in and talks about where she is right now and she talks, you know, quite factually and. Um, I think that we have to help women to feel like it's not self promoting. It's not a bad thing, even if you are self promoting, you know, this is about opportunity, creating those opportunities. Um, diversifying what we see at investment level, diversifying what we see at the top tables.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  So that we know that we have mentors or role models. Um, getting young girls at school involved in the same things as boys. So that it's not just the boys who are playing Lego or Minecraft. Or any of these things which are really think developing their minds in kind of um problem solving. But girls are doing it too. Um, so that there's just such a full spectrum of things. What we do know is this, women led businesses, women, uh businesses which have women on their boards. Perform better or and they outperform because it's a diversification of what we have. Why wouldn't we want that? It's good for everyone. It's good for business, good for the economy, it's good for women.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  So if we know that those businesses perform better, let's get more of them.

• 15:36Steven Bartlett?

  I couldn't agree more. Social team has a, is led by a woman.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Steven Bartlett?

  A remarkable one as well. Doing a much better job than I could do. Um, so on the point of, um, I guess, like sacrifice. What are the things, you know, it's, it's, having a four year old, the sacrifice is quite unique as well because it's, it's, I guess it's time with a child. And having a child in general is tremendous sacrifice. But what are the sacrifices that you've had to make in order to, um, pursue this, this dream you have?

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Sacrifice, it's really interesting. No one's ever asked me that, you know?

• 16:08Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And it's, it's, I think it's really important because you have to kind of be eyes wide open. When you're going into this, it is all consuming. And it means that there will be things that for my son I might miss. Or I'll go to and I might miss something for work and then feel horrendous about it. And there is that constant like kind of juggling of the guilt. What do I feel more guilty about? That can be hard. Um, but on a, even on a more, you know. Basic level sacrifice, I had a nice salary, I had a nice life and I don't have that anymore, you know, I hustle hard and I work hard and I.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  I don't take a salary from, from peanut currently, um, because I really want it to push forward. Um, I. Believe in it and that means that there are things that I can't do that I used to do. Um, I don't go out with my friends as much as I used to. I am that boring person. Who considers whether they can really afford to take that one night to see their friends because the next day they've got a full day of meetings. And am I gonna be on my, top of my game? Um, there are sacrifices in terms of personal relationships. Uh, it will take its toll on some of your friendships. Not all of your friends. Will understand that you are consumed by this thing that you're doing and that inevitably your conversation or your mind space might turn to it.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  That can be hard. Not everyone will be on the journey with you. That can be hard.

• 17:36Steven Bartlett?

  Do you ever worry that even if you succeed, it might not be worth it?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  No, I don't worry about that. It will be worth it because if I can just change one woman's experience of motherhood, if I can just change one woman's perspective on what it means to have this title mother, then it will be a success. And so the fact that there are women meeting, connecting, not feeling lonely, not feeling isolated, not feeling like they don't really fit within the description, that's success. So no, I don't worry about that.

• 18:14Steven Bartlett?

  You mentioned, um, you mentioned having to take like a, like a salary cut, something that I same, I had to do the same when I started a social team, uh, three and a half years ago. Um, what role does money play as a motivator in your life? And how has that changed over time? Cause for me, when I was eighteen years old, I was convinced I was doing it to, I was, I wanted to start a business to become a millionaire. And I would look at mansions and cars and, and I'd, I'd fantasize about them. And then at twenty five years old, twenty four, twenty three, I, when I first got an offer to like sell the business, I remember eighteen year old Steve showing up on that day. And he was literally went on AutoTrader and Rightmove, like to look at what I could buy. And then that weird moment of confusion when I realized that I didn't want, want any of these

• 18:56Steven Bartlett?

  things. And then I questioned why I was doing all of this. Had to almost trying to re, refine my why, because if I realized it wasn't about money, then, then why was I working so hard? Why was I getting up every day? Why am I not seeing my family?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:09Steven Bartlett?

  Um, so what role has, has money as a motivator played in your own life?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  When I was, um, a junior lawyer, my, my very first role, um, as a junior lawyer, I was paid seventeen thousand pounds a year. And I felt rich.

• 19:29Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I'd gone from being a student, I felt like it was the most money in the world. I felt that anything was possible and I was a lawyer and I was earning this salary and, um, it was only when I started to live and realize, actually, that's not gonna take me so far. Um, that you, you know, That you start on that, almost like a treadmill of the more money you have, the more you spend. And um I certainly really, you know, have always worked hard. I've always had a tremendous work ethic because I think that's just something that I took from my kind of early career, you had to.

• 20:07Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Um, and I earned well. Was it the thing that motivated me? No, can't be. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to step out and do this. Um, does the potential of having a life-changing amount of money at some point excite me? Yes, but not because I want to stop working, because maybe it will give me the opportunity to do something else. People always say, you know, what what's the goal? I don't know. In ten years' time, I would like to have my own fund that invests in women, for example, because I know that that was a challenge. I'll be able to do that if I get to a point where I've exited Peanut and I've made a life-changing amount of money. So. It it impacts me in terms of I want to work hard and I want to achieve things.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  It's not the motivator in terms of I want to have a nicer car or.

• 20:58Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Um, because I, I don't know, I just feel that that's.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  It's like quite immediate.

• 21:05Steven Bartlett?

  And do you think, uh, what money, what role does money play in ha- your happiness?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Um.

• 21:13Steven Bartlett?

  And happiness generally?

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, I don't, I don't know. I didn't come from money. I worked hard. I didn't. I I want to give, it's ironic. I I didn't, you know, I went to school in Peterborough and now I want my son to. Like have a better life than I did and I want him to have more opportunity than I did and I work hard for that. But equally, I want him to understand what working hard is.

• 21:36Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  And I want him to understand that, yeah, you you get up at six and you grind and that's how it feels and. Some days it feels amazing and some days you're like the walking dead and that's okay. And. Like, I want him to experience those things and yet that massive, like, contradiction of, and yet I also. Want you to go to a better school than I did and I want you to have more opportunity than I did. And I want you to see parts of the world that I never saw and still have never seen.

• 22:01Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Um, so is it linked to happiness?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  It's not happiness, it's linked to security.

• 22:09Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I have an obligation to have a secure home for my son and a secure future for my son. And money is linked to that security.

• 22:18Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  But more, what's more tied to happiness is like the integrity of work ethic and the integrity of feeling like, yeah, I did that for us. And you can do it for you and that kind of reward, I suppose. That sounds really corny. I didn't mean it to be corny, but.

• 22:36Steven Bartlett?

  Well, and I think I'm asking this question for myself more than anything. Because you're an entrepreneur, you've been in the working world longer than I have. So what are the other things that you've figured out um make you happy?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  You made me sound really old there, Steve.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I am actually old these days. Um, what are the other things? Um, professional integrity?

• 23:00Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Never really thought about that when I was younger. Not that I didn't have it, I just didn't care. Like, what's that? And now, to me, it's everything. I want people to know that I act with integrity and I want to act with integrity. And I want to work with people who do.

• 23:17Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Um, and that is really important and has become so much more important the older I get.

• 23:24Steven Bartlett?

  Right, interesting.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Because my mum used to say this weird thing of like, show me your friends and I know who you are.

• 23:30Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  And I think it, I think about it a lot. I think it more and more as I, as I get older. Um. And so that, that is important to me. Um. The importance of that network. There are people that I met along my journey who I never really understood why they might be important to me later in life, and yet they are.

• 23:50Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Um, and just culturally within Peanut, being.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  A good person, being a good person doesn't mean you're weak, being a good person doesn't mean that you're ineffectual. It just means that you are acting with good values.

• 24:08Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Those good values might be, I'm telling you that you're not doing a very good job today.

• 24:12Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  That's okay, that's still good values because at least you're being open and you're acting with integrity. And that's important.

• 24:19Steven Bartlett?

  And your intent is good, I think that's the important.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Exactly that.

• 24:22Steven Bartlett?

  And if you're not trying to rip someone's self-esteem apart, you're trying to make them happy by being better in the future.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Exactly, and it's good for you and it's good for them and it's good for the business. It's much worse to think you're being kind by kind of not really telling them or digging on them a bit, but not really getting to the point. And then discovering that actually you've, you know, really destroyed their confidence. Cause that little dig that you've been delivering every day is really like buried somewhere within them. Um, and that's no good for your business either, right? So, um, that's become more important, I think.

• 24:52Steven Bartlett?

  So my next question is an interesting one, right? So, um, kind of links to something you said earlier, but, um, talking about dark days and sacrifice, et cetera. One of my worst ever days professionally, you might be, you're familiar with it.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Am I?

• 25:05Steven Bartlett?

  Because it involved you.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Did it? What was it?

• 25:08Steven Bartlett?

  So this was, this was, um, in our second year when we got hacked.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 25:14Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so I've spoken about this on the podcast multiple times, right? And my, my audience on the podcast have probably heard me talk about this incident about three times. Six AM in the morning, driving to work, get an email from my CFO saying, you didn't mean to send that to me, did you? Pulling over, um, with Dom and then that continuing all day, arriving at paintballing at eight AM with my team. And, um, discovering that we were getting a lot more emails of that nature. Um, pulling everybody back from paintball to go to the office, pulling up at the office and realising that all of our clients, including you, had been sent very personal, very malicious, very offensive emails,

• 25:54Steven Bartlett?

  including the, uh, marketing director of the MBA, the marketing director at Fox, who was one of our biggest clients at the time. And dealing with that backlash.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:04Steven Bartlett?

  Probably the hardest, the hardest single day. I I've dealt with because I didn't have the perspective I have now. So I was still quite young in my like, my experiences of going through tough, difficult situations and handling them. Probably today it wouldn't be, it'd be much easier to handle. Um, I've got a question and I've been meaning to ask you this. Do you remember that?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I do now, but I had, I haven't thought about that properly since it happened.

• 26:30Steven Bartlett?

  And here's something I've always wanted to know. And I think because I've spoken about this on my podcast before, it'll be really interesting. You're one of those people that received an email of that nature.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:40Steven Bartlett?

  Can you talk about it from your perspective as a client? And what, what, what happened then? Because we have our perspective. We know what went on on our end. And I've never known what went on at the.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  So I remember it now. Um, it wasn't about me. It was about someone in the team.

• 26:59Steven Bartlett?

  Was it?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I re- I remember it. Um.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I'm, I mean, I remember receiving it. I remember getting the email about it. You know, listen, we've been hacked and you know, you're not the only one. We're really sorry. Um.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  What did I think? I suppose at the time I, you know, just being honest, I probably thought it was unprofessional. Um, I thought that.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Gosh, this is like quite lambasting. Um, I, I think I probably would have appreciated a phone call from you at the time. I think we spoke maybe the next day or, but at the time I was a bit like, huh? Um, but to be honest, then I moved on with our day. You know, it was one of those things that happened. Um. I haven't thought about it since.

• 27:45Steven Bartlett?

  So the question is, what's your toughest day? I know you're able to share that. What's the one day when I, when I say that to you, that jumps out and you think, fuck, that was the day that I nearly didn't?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've had some pretty tough days, dark days, um, with peanut. Um, one of them is kind of work related, but, but nothing to do with directly peanut. Um, it was a personal relationship, uh, with someone who I really considered to be a friend. Um, and it broke down in the most like. Dramatic and catastrophic way um for reasons that I just didn't really understand. And it wasn't actually until very recently that I started to understand them um and they still don't, you know. That's gone past, but that was very, very low.

• 28:34Steven Bartlett?

  And it was a member of the team?

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Uh it was someone that I had formerly worked with.

• 28:39Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  And it hurt me in a way that I didn't know was possible when it comes to business. I think the reason that it felt so bad and made my day feel so low or the time feel so low. Um it's because I really wanted this person to be on the journey with me because I'd been part of a journey with them.

• 29:01Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And um that felt really hard.

• 29:07Steven Bartlett?

  Lonely betrayal, what was it like?

• 29:10Speaker 01

  A bit of despair, a bit of confusion, self doubt.

• 29:15Steven Bartlett?

  Because they didn't believe in you?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  No, no, it was something far more um basic than that, but um I started to think. I don't want this, actually, maybe this is not what I want, maybe I just want to go and get that nine to five.

• 29:31Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  And not like raise my head above the parapet and kind of stand out and, you know, have this product and be a founder and. I want to go and run someone else's business again is actually what I thought.

• 29:43Steven Bartlett?

  So they shook your self esteem more.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, that was hard.

• 29:48Steven Bartlett?

  And what's your best ever moment in the last, it's specifically with creating Peanut? What's been the the moment you're most fond of?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I think it was seeing Peanut at WWDC, which is the big Apple Developer Conference. And Tim Cook's on stage and.

• 30:09Steven Bartlett?

  In the background.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  And there and there's little Peanut, like there's my little face bobbing around um and then they later did that kind of. Um. Conversation around um peanut being the first like on the meet the developer on the new app store. We were the first um company they featured. We were four months old. We were genuinely, I've just, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't understand that our tiny little company of five people.

• 30:36Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Had created something where people at Apple knew who we were, let alone they were talking about us at the biggest event of the year for them. Um. It was also cool because like, you know, average person in the street wasn't seeing it. It it was like like our peers. It was like people who were at WWDC, developers, engineers, like other geeks, for want of a better word, that were seeing us. And that that was to me really exciting. Um. I felt so proud. It was testament to Peanut and the team, and it was testament to Apple, like even knowing who we were and recognizing.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and recognizing what we were doing for for women who are mothers, that was massive. It will always be one of the best days. Even though I forget to enjoy it.

• 31:27Steven Bartlett?

  So that's your that's your best day. And on the other hand, we've got like your worst days.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Steven Bartlett?

  What's your average day like? What's your like your average like routine?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  I don't think you know yourself. I don't know if there is an average day. I mean, it it really depends. Yesterday was very much like an an office day and I was, you know, really doing a lot of data work, um speaking with the team about product and priorities and that kind of thing. Today has been a bit more, I've been to investors, I've had some calls, I'm having a great chat with you, I've got another like, so it's a bit more random. Some days we're working on like branding and marketing, so there is no like average day. I suppose the days when I come home and I feel like nothing got off that list, nothing moved off that list, they're the days where I.

• 32:17Steven Bartlett?

  But you're knackered.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you feel like you've been on it, but nothing's really changed. They're the days where I suppose I feel the most um like this has been an average day. And I don't mean average in kind of normal, just average in terms of, you know.

• 32:31Steven Bartlett?

  Different.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:32Steven Bartlett?

  What you you mentioned earlier about relationships and the the impact that um. Running a business has had on your relationships, but you know, from my own experience as a single guy still.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:43Steven Bartlett?

  And actually, since we met, I did have a girlfriend for about a year, but um but being a single guy still, I've seen the impact on romantic relationships and trying to find people that understand what my world is like. Um, I noticed that you've got a massive ring on your finger.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks.

• 32:58Steven Bartlett?

  You're married.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Not bad, I am.

• 32:59Steven Bartlett?

  Um, what impact is, if you're able to share, running a business like this and creating a business from nothing um, had on the romantic relationships?

• 33:09Speaker 01

  That is, that is really hard. And that again is something that no one, no one ever really speaks about and no one really told me about. Um, I'm really, really, really, really fortunate in that my husband is, um, he's a bit older than me. Um, and he has his own career in a different, totally different field, but he's really, really supportive. And I don't just mean supportive to me, I mean to our home life. He's really like fifty fifty with Finn, my little boy. Um, everything is a shared like obligation or like juggle. So tomorrow is Finn's first day at school. Um, and I am going to drop him off and pick him up because I really want to do it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  But then I have to go to Sweden for a couple of days for an investor event. And then Rich will be on and it's his kind of over to him. And we really share that and I'm really fortunate for that. I'm also really fortunate for the fact that he is like the biggest Team Peanut supporter and like, he's like our biggest stalker. He finds like weird bits of press that we didn't even know we had. Um, he's, he's really like fully involved. But also because he's an amazing cheerleader and will always say, you know, keep going or, you know, doesn't matter if if that one hasn't worked out, what about the next one or whatever it is? Um, he, he's amazingly proud and supportive. That said, it is hard. I travel a lot. I'm away from them both. That's really tough. Um.

• 34:37Steven Bartlett?

  How do you keep a relationship alive when your your mind is all consumed with your your company, which becomes, you know, whether you like it or not, in some respects, has to become your priority at some points. How do you then juggle being a mother, but then also being a wife and a partner?

• 34:52Speaker 01

  That's so hard. I mean, it is really hard. Sometimes we're having a conversation and I'm only partially participating because in my head I'm thinking about all the things that I need to do. Um, that are peanut related. Um, I think it's about forgiveness. A lot of forgiveness in our house. I'm sorry. And a lot of, a lot of kind of, okay, I understand. And, you know, that we have to be like that. Um, and communication, if I'm being shit, he's very clear about it. And, you know, vice versa, if I feel like he's not really understanding what I'm working on or going through, I'm pretty vocal about it. Um, I think it's just accepting. We're human, right?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  We get stuff wrong all the time. Sometimes I'm the world's most amazing mom and sometimes I'm not. And sometimes I'm killing it at work and sometimes I'm not. And that's just the way it is. And it's about getting over it and giving myself a bit of a break. I sent Finn to school. He wasn't in fancy dress. It was a fancy dress day. I felt like the worst mom in the whole world. Finn probably hasn't thought about it since. I'm still scarred.

• 35:58Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  But like, I'm trying to like move on from that. And like, next time, I'm never gonna make that mistake again, right? So it's just about balance, juggle, whatever.

• 36:07Steven Bartlett?

  And um, with with all the struggles and all the sacrifices and such, there's there's often consequences for um entrepreneurs that are much deeper. And I think one of the big things that has taken a greater share of conversation in the world of being an entrepreneur and a founder and a CEO, along with the the thoughts of, you know, like loneliness, is all of our, um, what's the word? All of our, the importance of taking care of your mental health. Because it is so lonely and

• 36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:35Steven Bartlett?

  because it's a high stress, high pressure and working within like a tech um startup. And a startup in general, there are unique pressures that nobody will really understand that has a nine to five job where they don't have to worry about the bank balance, making sure everyone gets paid. Um.

• 36:52Steven Bartlett?

  When it comes to mental health and entrepreneurship, what are the things that you think are important? And have you, have you been through any of your own battles that you're able to share?

• 37:04Speaker 01

  I'm an insomniac.

• 37:06Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  I really don't sleep very well. Um, and I'm getting better.

• 37:11Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  But there was a period of time last year where it was unrelenting every night. I was maybe sleeping for an hour or two.

• 37:19Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  And it was like having a new baby.

• 37:23Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Um, and the honest truth is not sleeping is so detrimental to your health. It is like a form of torture.

• 37:32Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  And when you're trying to run a business with clarity and be visionary, and yet you feel a bit like a zombie, that's really tough. Um, and I had to do something about it because it was, it, you know, it was just really getting on top of me. You can't function. Um, and also, I, you know, you look skinny and you're just, you just don't feel like the best version of you. Um, and that was pretty tough. Um.

• 38:01Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what caused that? And was it, was it a new thing in your life or was it?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Um, I would say it was relatively, I'm, I've never been an amazing sleeper, actually, since I had my little boy. Before that, I was literally that person who would sleep in a nightclub and that didn't bother me. But like, since Finn, my sleep was not as great. Um, I think the cause was anxiety.

• 38:22Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Like being new to being a founder.

• 38:25Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  As you said, knowing what it's like to keep the lights on, knowing how much runway you've got, what your burn is, you know, are you going to raise money again? All of those things, is the product working? Crazy things that pop into your head at three A M. And make you sweat and your heart race. And that can be really tough. Um, I started using an app, um.

• 38:46Steven Bartlett?

  Which one?

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Calm, yeah, uh, for sleep stories to help me get to sleep. Like the meditation stuff wasn't really working because I couldn't really lose myself in the meditation. My thoughts were just even louder. But the sleep stories were good. Stephen Fry, like talking to you about lavender or whatever. That was pretty good. Um, and I, that did make a big difference. Not checking my emails past eleven o'clock and, you know, turning my phone on to airplane, that made a difference. Um.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Not having a glass of wine every night and you know, all of those, that did make a difference. So I think um that's, that's all had an impact. People don't really talk about it. And I suppose there is this element of a little bit of bravado, right?

• 39:33Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  I founded this company, I'm gonna make it work. I'm not gonna be like a nutcase, or I don't want anyone to think I'm like crazy or whatever.

• 39:41Steven Bartlett?

  There's a stigma, which is, yeah, which isn't, which isn't conducive with being a, you know, a leader, right?

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Exactly that.

• 39:47Steven Bartlett?

  So that's, they're almost acting opposite of like, the, well, the stigma, and I've got to be clear on this, the stigma. I'd say the oldest, the old stigma of having mental health issues was people would run from you because you're weak and you can't control yourself and you're, you know, you're out of control. And the, the association of a leader is someone that's in control, that's strong, that is um to be followed and, and, and that they kind of play opposite ends of the spectrum.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  And does anyone want to hear that their CEO was up at two AM with the sweats because she was freaking out about, I don't know, runway?

• 40:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  No, no one in the team needs to know that. That's, that's my issue. Um, and so I suppose it was just finding different ways and outlets to manage that. Um, and just recognizing that, you know, it's not good to work on no sleep.

• 40:41Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, I think, I think all of the um CEOs and entrepreneurs that I've interviewed on this particular podcast um have, have said the exact same thing. But it's, but I've never heard it from them until I've asked. And I, I mean, when you think about it, it makes perfect sense because the type of person that has to be the leader and has to care about all of those things is going to be most susceptible to things like anxiety and, you know, loneliness and other forms of, you know, mental health issues that are derived from the, the role. So I think it's important to talk about more, you know, and I.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 41:13Steven Bartlett?

  For sure. How do you want to be remembered?

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Oh gosh.

• 41:17Steven Bartlett?

  By your son, let's say.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Or by my son.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Uh I want to be remembered by Finn as someone who worked tirelessly but played tirelessly with him too. Like, I always want him to feel like we have fun and we have serious moments too, but we go out and we do things. We went to see Matilda the Musical last weekend and it was, you know, just trying to make it so that um he knows that mommy works hard, but she always has time for me.

• 41:50Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  It's really important to me. We're reading, like, we're working our way through Roald Dahl at the moment. So we read a chapter of George's Marvelous Medicine every night. And it's really important to me that that's our thing. Um and I want him always to remember that we had our things.

• 42:04Steven Bartlett?

  Sure. Two more questions then. Um my next one just sprung to mind. Um you're a remarkable uh on uh role model for all entrepreneurs. But because of the point of relatability and people seeking out a role model that they can relate to, you'll, as I do for young black men and certain minorities, I've found, um you'll form, you're probably, you probably found already that you you are a much stronger role model to um people who can relate to you. So I'm a eighteen year old young woman looking to start a business. What is your advice to me going into the the business world? And specifically, I want to start a business in tech.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Um I think my advice is speak to as many people as you can. Get information from people, learn from people, be around people. You can go into a business for a day and shadow someone and sit and watch them. And unless you're asking what they're doing, why they're doing it, most people want to tell you. Most people want to help you anyway. So um just getting in and speaking to people is really important. Um. What do you mean by tech? Tech could be engineering, tech could be product, tech could be marketing.

• 43:24Steven Bartlett?

  I'm a, I'm a, it's fine, it's fine for it to be vague.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the point is, there are no limitations. And when I was growing up, definitely, I was like the first person in my um family to go to university and the messaging was always, you can be anything you want, as long as it's a doctor, a lawyer, an accountant, or a teacher. And that was what I was presented with. Work hard and go and be one of those things.

• 43:48Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Okay, I went with lawyer. I liked Ally McBeal at the time. You're too young. No, I don't. Um, and I think that that was so prescriptive and I never knew what the big wide world, I never knew what was out there. So it's okay to like go and explore and find different things. Um.

• 44:07Steven Bartlett?

  And not to know.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  And not to know. Read, go read, speak to people, read about it. Like, don't be like hard on yourself and prescriptive. And then be dogged and get a thick skin because you're gonna need it. Some of the, like, you're gonna get rejections or you're gonna, you know, get things wrong. It's okay. As long as you're kind of pick yourself up and get back and do it again.

• 44:26Steven Bartlett?

  How do I know if my idea is good, though?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Um. You have to speak to people. You cannot create a product for yourself. You have to speak to people.

• 44:35Steven Bartlett?

  Everyone says, yes, everyone says it's great. My mum, my sister, my best friend.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no good. As much as that's amazing. Um. You have to go and speak to your user base. And so even with Peanut, I spoke to one woman and then every, I would always get that woman to introduce me to another woman, right? So it's not my network.

• 44:54Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  So that woman would then give me the number or email address of another woman and I'd speak to her and get her view and on and on. And what it also meant is when it came to launch Peanut, I had a hundred women who I could go and see the product with and say, here's what you helped me build. What do you think?

• 45:07Steven Bartlett?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  They're natural ambassadors for your product. They're gonna go and share the word. That was really important.

• 45:12Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. Last question then. Um. The table we're sat at right now has four edges, right? So it has like this, this bit here, this bit here, this bit here. We can, this, we're gonna have delivery because that's the

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 45:25Steven Bartlett?

  Business. And um.

• 45:29Steven Bartlett?

  We're gonna invite four guests to this table, dead or alive.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 45:34Steven Bartlett?

  Who are those guests and why?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 45:36Steven Bartlett?

  And also wanna know what what we're ordering from Deliveroo, but.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Such a good question. Who are we having? I'm gonna say two really random ones. We're gonna have Jackie Kennedy.

• 45:47Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Jackie O.

• 45:48Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know who that is.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  What?

• 45:50Steven Bartlett?

  I know, I knew you were gonna say that, cause I could tell by your face that.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  Steve, like JFK?

• 45:55Steven Bartlett?

  Oh.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Jackie O, Jackie O Nasser, okay, we're gonna have, we're gonna have Jacqueline Kennedy. Um, because I have a friend who is just completely all knowledgeable about the Kennedy family and it really is something that I find so interesting that she's so into it. Um, and she got me into it and I watched the Natalie Portman movie and I got really into it. So I'd love to sit with her. She was a cool woman. Um, and I think the other person, um, I would like to have the founder of um, Verve Clicquot, the champagne. Um, so her husband um, died and she

• 46:39Speaker 01

  uh, was amazing and changed the label to yellow. So you know, the label is yellow. And no champagne was yellow and she was basically this unbelievable like female um, champion hundreds of years ago, but I checked that fact, but a long time ago. Um, and really was like at the forefront of the kind of changing a perception, taking something that was there and loved and respected and changing the perception slightly. Um, and running that business and, you know, how amazing, what stories she could tell. So they're the two.

• 47:12Steven Bartlett?

  There's still two more.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Weird. What? I thought it was.

• 47:15Steven Bartlett?

  Four, four seats. This is.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Four seats. Okay, right, they're my two. Um.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go with Frida Kahlo. My little boy is obsessed with Frida Kahlo. He's got this book and he reads about her all the time. And I've got this like weird flower thing that I wore for some fancy dress. And he's always like, wear it, mommy, you'll look like Frida Kahlo.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  I don't know anything about art. I'm really ignorant about art. I just have feelings about stuff that I like. And I don't, you know, it's not something that I grew up around. And it's like something that I actually have to try hard to understand. And but I do love her stuff and I am, I love her story. And I'm interested in her story with Diego. And so I think she would be amazing and fascinating. She would be number three. And number four, I'm gonna bring my best mate Sophie along because I think she's a journalist for the BBC. And I think that the thing that I find most interesting about Sophie is that she is so nosey and has brilliant questions.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  So she would make sure that we got all of the best information out of those women.

• 48:30Steven Bartlett?

  Nice. And what would we be eating?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one. I eat so much junk food. I'm a ter- I'm terrible for it. So.

• 48:40Steven Bartlett?

  It's your favourite food. We'll just go for that.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  I love pasta. I like Vietnamese. I like steak.

• 48:45Steven Bartlett?

  Pasta.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:46Steven Bartlett?

  Italian.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Italian. More important than the food is the wine.

• 48:51Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  A really good red Italian wine.

• 48:54Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  We'll have the best night.

• 48:55Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Michelle. I've really enjoyed it. And I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people that wanna reach out to you for various reasons. But where can we find you? Where's the easiest place to get in touch?

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Probably Instagram these days or Peanut.

• 49:09Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, amazing. Thank you so much. And I'm sure we'll continue our conversations off the microphone. Thank you so much.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.