443. How to be more interesting

I think we all instinctively know if we find someone interesting… or not. But how can we cultivate the skills of being interesting to others? In this episode, we break down the science behind what makes people interesting, talk about some easy things we can all do to tap into what already makes us unique, and focus on one of life’s greatest conversational hacks - learning how to be truly interested in others. We explore: • Why we all love interesting people • How ‘digital saturation’ is making us more bored, and boring • The importance of asking open-ended questions to unlock better conversations • Why being truly unique is a status symbol • The power of learning to talk to strangers • Why social skills are actually just social courage Watch on Netflix: HERE https://netflix.com/thepsychologyofyour20s Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# Subscribe on Substack: @thepsychologyofyour20s https://substack.com/@thepsychologyofyour20s For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Our favourite sources: https://tedbauer.medium.com/are-people-more-boring-now-98105e03e20c https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2009-12130-004 https://thevectorimpact.com/how-to-be-more-interesting/ The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realizing that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable personalized insights that have made me more intentional

• 0:49Jemma Sbeg?

  and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is.

• 1:33Jemma Sbeg?

  Lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 1:45Jemma Sbeg?

  No one's journey is the same. That's why Delta Sky Miles moves with you. Whether it's earning miles from coffee runs to flights, to redeeming for vacations your way, or even unlocking exclusive experiences, a Sky Miles membership fits into your lifestyle, letting you do more of what makes you, you. It's more than travel. It's the membership that flies, dines, streams, rides and arrives with you. Because when you have a membership that's as unique as you are, there's no telling where your journey will take you next. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. Your social media feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max and so much more.

• 2:29Jemma Sbeg?

  But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? Health versus Hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy nominated host Trace Dominguez talks through health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to really matters. Listen to Health versus Hype wherever you get your podcasts. Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University. Because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits.

• 3:15Jemma Sbeg?

  And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started? Visit snhu.edu/psych. That's snhu.edu/psych.

• 3:40Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Jemma Sbeg and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

• 4:00Jemma Sbeg?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here, back for another episode. As we, of course, break down the psychology of your twenties, my twenties, our twenties. Just a reminder, this episode and all of our other episodes are now on Netflix. So if you are somebody who likes video podcasts, this is the place to go. For full transparency, this is a new thing for Netflix as well. And we would love for them to hopefully ask us to do another season. So if you haven't checked it out, if it's something that interests you, our full video episodes are now over there. Now is the time.

• 4:43Jemma Sbeg?

  It really does help me and the podcast out, so I'd really appreciate it. But let's get into the episode. Today, I am bringing you all a classic how to episode. I do these every now and again for topics that like kind of aren't unified by a singular psychological concept or explanation or theory. But they have so much depth to them that they deserve their own category of episode. We've done how to avoid settling in your twenties, how to manage your anxiety about the future, how to do hard things, how to get out of a funk, how to anything. And today, we are doing my favorite so far, a personal topic I cannot shut up about, which is how to be more interesting.

• 5:28Jemma Sbeg?

  There was a very famous journal paper published in the journal Nature last year talking about how in our digital age, people are increasingly bored and increasingly boring. And a consequence of how much time we spend online is that we are all very slowly losing our distinct personalities. Nobody is interesting anymore. Nobody is different. Nobody is special. Maybe you feel that way about yourself, that you're not as interesting. Even in your own mind, you aren't entertaining yourself as much. You're not fascinated by yourself, that maybe you've lost a little bit of dimension to your personhood and your personality. I want to say you are not alone.

• 6:10Jemma Sbeg?

  And today, we are going to examine why you are feeling that way, why our current environments, plural, are creating a standardization of thought, interest, of personalities and the very best things you can do psychologically, socially, neurologically, to become a more interesting person. Someone who people feel inexplicably drawn to and excited by and invested in. And also how to become more interesting to yourself as well. It is a big episode. Without further ado, let's get into it.

• 6:52Jemma Sbeg?

  So the first question, and also I guess the hardest question to answer, what actually makes somebody interesting? What intrigues us psychologically as humans and as people and as a species? The thing is, whether somebody is interesting or not, operates on two kind of levels or two planes. The first level is highly subjective and it's based on our own preferences. Somebody talking all day about football might be the most boring thing in the world to you. Couldn't, counting rice would be more fun, but it would be endlessly interesting to others.

• 7:32Jemma Sbeg?

  I love talking about sports, but every time I do, I can see that my friends are probably a little bit bored by it. It's not as interesting to them. And it works the other way. Somebody could have the coolest job in the world, but you just can't bring yourself to be interested or to care. Because personally, like you are not invested in that. You just, your brain doesn't light up in the same way. But there is a difference between being subjectively interested in someone and someone being objectively interesting as an individual. And people who have that special source, that special something, it transcends everything external. It transcends things like a job.

• 8:15Jemma Sbeg?

  It transcends hobbies, stories, appearance. And it comes from a deeper place, meaning that I guess no matter what they talk about, who they're around, whether they have the most tedious job in the world or the most interesting, there is, and we all know somebody like this, there is something about them that still draws people in based on their character, based on how they hold themselves. It's like a little bit of their soul is just like on fire. Okay, so what is that factor made up of? What is that objective factor? How do we identify it? Firstly, the most interesting people in the world are those who are actually interested in others. They go deep. They have a genuine curiosity about you.

• 8:58Jemma Sbeg?

  They find the world fascinating. In fact, one 2021 study had 1,800 participants talk to each other in pairs. People who were given a list of deeper questions to ask about the other person. The other individual actually found them more interesting as a partner. They came off as more enjoyable to be around. People felt like they wanted to know more about them purely because of the questions and the depth they were going to with the person they were sitting across from. I think the reason for this is that this kind of behaviour is so rare. It's so rare to find somebody who's genuinely interested in other people.

• 9:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Also, their their questions, their interest in us leaves a bit of a disclosure gap where we're talking more about ourselves, we're sharing more. And so they kind of remained mysterious, piquing our interests. Crucially, people who are interested in others, I also think they ask questions to understand. They ask questions not just to debate or assert their views, but because they are genuinely curious and they want to expand their worldview. They ask questions because that is just valuable to them. Whatever answer you give them, they don't care. It's it's endlessly fascinating because of the way that you've answered it and because it's probably different to the way that they would answer it.

• 10:22Jemma Sbeg?

  And that means that also when they go and have conversations with others, they contribute to a greater and deeper level. There was this guy I used to work with when I worked in consulting and he would ask these like piercing questions, questions you would never expect to be asked, questions that probably nobody has been asked before in the history of humanity. And I remember we were like collectively just so fascinated by him because someone who is able to get that information out of people, because you would answer him, you would tell him all this stuff about you. He must have some pretty good stories of his own to tell if he can get that kind of level of intimacy with somebody even just like completely casually. Also, I think the reason these people are interesting is because we simply like talking about ourselves.

• 11:08Jemma Sbeg?

  The interested person is interesting because they get us to talk about our favourite topic and we kind of confuse talking with that and enjoying that with enjoying them. They become more interesting. And it also means that they're often very good conversationalists, even if they say very little, and they are great unifiers. Even in a group conversation, someone interesting can almost effortlessly bring everyone out of their shells if needed. They hear everybody's point of view. It doesn't look like a strain. They create at times this like collective conversational flow state for us to sit in.

• 11:49Jemma Sbeg?

  We are also drawn to people who are not just interested in us, but feel very authentically themselves. That's the second thing that makes someone interesting. The reason for this is threefold. Firstly, we implicitly believe that for someone to be that secure in themselves, they must have reasons to back it up. There must be some deep personal well that they are drawing from that gives them this dimension and depth and confidence. This makes us very interested in discovering what that is. What are they relying on? Where does their self-esteem come from and why is it so amazing? Secondly, we find them interesting because our natural levels of curiosity just generally go up when we feel psychologically safe.

• 12:32Jemma Sbeg?

  Being around someone secure is a catalyst for that feeling. The reason for this is that we know that someone who is genuine and authentic and just kind and confident in themselves is a lot less likely to need to discredit or put others down to feel good about themselves, people like us. Therefore, we just can kind of relax. Finally, I think we find authentic people interesting because some small part of us probably wants to be like them. We see their ease, we see their confidence, we see their lack of embarrassment, we see their good stories, we see their depth and we think, oh my god, how do I get that? I want to be on that level.

• 13:15Jemma Sbeg?

  And this spurs our interest in them almost as like a case study. Like they are a blueprint for how we can become like that and how we can improve ourselves. So interesting people are interested, they're authentic. Another thing that defines interesting people is that they just do stuff. They play outside, they make things, they adventure, they create, they they put their creative ideas out there, even if it's not perfect. They go to things alone, they travel alone. I was gonna try and find like a more complex term to describe this and I was like looking in my psychology dictionary and I was like, what's the word for this? But really like they just do stuff is the best way I can put it these days.

• 13:56Jemma Sbeg?

  Like they fill their days, they fill their lives, they play the game of life well. They're just an active participant in their lives. The next factor that makes people objectively interesting is that they're not just authentic, they are a little bit different. There's something odd about them. Odd in the positive way, there's something divergent about them, as we would say, literally like the movie, they're divergent, like our attraction. And our gravitation towards these kind of people is driven particularly by like an instinctual love for novelty. The same kind of person with the same personality, doing the same thing, shopping at the same places over and over again. It just gets kind of boring after a while.

• 14:39Jemma Sbeg?

  Someone who stands apart from that as an outlier gets our brain paying attention because they deviate from an expected pattern that immediately spikes interest neurologically, psychologically and especially socially. Now, our appreciation for these kinds of individuals tends to increase as we get older. Unfortunately, as children and as teenagers, we're very cruel to divergent thinkers, we're very cruel to divergent or different personality types because at that age, you know, group conformity and group allegiance just feels so important when we're children, when we're kids, when we're trying to fit in. I still think they'd get the final word.

• 15:23Jemma Sbeg?

  I truly believe, truly, the weirdest kids always become the most interesting adults. Always. Because they have formed their identity purely on vibes and purely on natural enjoyment alone, rather than external validation. And they probably had to go through some really difficult experiences to get there. Like they get bullied for years, they get excluded, only for people to turn around in their twenties and thirties and realise like how insanely rare it is to have genuine interest and love for things and how insanely rare it is to have a truly individual, unique personality, that they totally get the final word. Honestly, I was a weird kid.

• 16:06Jemma Sbeg?

  I think I'm an interesting adult, not to toot my own horn. If you are this way, confirm my theory for me. If you were a weird kid, do you think that you are an above average, interesting adult? Yes or no? I think the answer is yes, I want to run my own experiment. DM me if this applies to you. To take this a step further though, because this is anecdotal. Science does back up the fact that being eccentric, being different can actually have health and lifestyle benefits to beyond just being interesting. There's this man called David Weeks, he's a psychiatrist, he's the author of the book, Eccentrics, A Study of Sanity and Strangeness. He conducted a ten year study on a thousand people who we would describe as eccentric.

• 16:49Jemma Sbeg?

  These people were, there was, um, trying to think about some of the people he interviewed. There was like an indigenous man who walked everywhere backwards. There were these two Californian people who believed they could hypnotise frogs, people who are a little bit out there. What he discovered is that his subjects suffered less from mental illnesses such as depression than the majority of the population. Fewer than thirty percent had ever abused drug or drugs or alcohol. He also found that eccentrics visited the doctor twenty times less often than the average person and on average, they lived longer. Yeah, they were more interesting, were they also healthier? He said yes.

• 17:33Jemma Sbeg?

  We have to be careful here, especially things with, uh, like when we say they didn't visit the doctor as much. You know, another explanation for that could be that these people weren't healthier, they just were more sceptical of, let's say, western medicine, more sceptical of like the system. They weren't less mentally unwell, they just weren't being diagnosed because of that skepticism. Like we have to search for other explanations here because there are some. But Weeks, Dr Weeks attributed these findings, which are impressive, I have to say, regardless of why, to the benefits of non-conformity. He said it's a health, it's a health plus. Those who don't repress their inner nature in the struggle to conform, they suffer less stress.

• 18:18Jemma Sbeg?

  Consequently, they are happier, their immune systems work more efficiently, they suffer less from the psychological pressures and the psychological cost of self-silencing and self-abandonment, meaning they have more fulfilling emotional lives. Therefore, and again, allowing them to be more interesting, interesting and expansive as people because their authenticity is nurtured. Whether they do that for others or just for themselves, they probably do it for themselves, it doesn't matter, they're just more interesting. The final thing all interesting people do that's important to know is that they energise others.

• 18:58Jemma Sbeg?

  Maybe that's through stories, maybe it's through accomplishments, maybe it's through their passion, their individuality, their self comfort. It doesn't matter, whatever it is. It is undeniable that interesting people bring a force for life into any room they enter. They make others like want to learn more, wanna do better, not through shame, not through comparison, not through judgment, but through expansion. And I think that is the most crucial element of their character, even if they're not nice people. The way they operate is still a bit of a human experiment and in this way they become expanders. This is an idea that I'm stealing from my friend, Aerophiliya Substack. It's called Crystal Clear, this thing that she

• 19:43Jemma Sbeg?

  talks about as expanders. And she says, we all need at least three people in our lives who expand our sense of what's possible, simply through the way they live. And she was basically asking me, you know, who my three people were, like who are the three people that expand me? And this is so crucial because without these individuals in your life, the limits that you place on yourself are going to naturally be lower because the example hasn't been set. You cannot dream bigger than than what you see in some ways. And it's sometimes hard to be around people who are more accomplished than us because our ego is naturally very self protective. Our ego is very cautious of situations that could lessen our self esteem.

• 20:26Jemma Sbeg?

  But the outcome of being around expanders, being around interesting people, is a greater sense of what is possible within our own lives, a greater confidence that we can achieve what we want. And that's, and it's called what's special about these kinds of people. So the next big question is, if this is what makes somebody interesting, why are interesting people becoming harder to find? Why are we all becoming more boring? Like that nature article kind of accused us of of becoming. We're gonna talk about that, break down the three critical factors that are maybe making you boring, definitely making me boring, after this short break.

• 21:13Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year. And something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress, and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a 30 day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology

• 21:56Jemma Sbeg?

  for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark.com.

• 22:35Jemma Sbeg?

  Growth isn't linear. There's no magic timeline or secret template. And no one understands that quite like Southern New Hampshire University, because SNHU has online degree programs built for whatever path you are on. Tried college before? Transfer up to 90 credits. And if you're new to this, no worries. Every student gets a dedicated academic advisor. And here's the best part, there's no set class times. So school actually fits your life. Ready to get started? Visit SNHU.edu/psych. That's SNHU.edu/psych. These days, there are more people than ever telling you how to manage your health. And we've

• 23:18Jemma Sbeg?

  all gone down an internet rabbit hole exploring the latest health trends. Your social media feed is packed with wellness advice, telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what health versus hype from the American Medical Association and iHeart Media's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to health influencers, real people, and most importantly, doctors, to separate fact from fiction. Because when it

• 24:01Jemma Sbeg?

  comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 24:13Jemma Sbeg?

  Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean or better for the environment, when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing, and their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee, and so Nature Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that kick I sometimes need with potent ingredients, combining yerba mate with nootropics, adaptogens, botanicals, to support mental clarity and focus. And you already know how much I love their marine glow and have for years. It is the

• 24:58Jemma Sbeg?

  only collagen that combines skin supporting marine collagen with the sun and blue light protection of lutin to make your skin feel and look glowy and protected. Plus, I just really like that they have nature at the core of everything that they do. Try Nature Sunshine and experience the difference with supplements that are better for you and the planet. Go to naturessunshine.com today and use the code PSYCH for 20% off your first order plus free shipping. That's code PSYCH for 20% off your first order at nature sunshine.com.

• 25:34Jemma Sbeg?

  So I have a few explanations for you as to why we're becoming less interesting. But the biggest one is that the environments that we are in allow for less choice. And that is forcing all of us to become quite homogeneous, therefore less unique, therefore less interesting. Increasingly, we are all being funneled towards the same things, trends and viral content. Whether you know it or not, they, and I think you do, they are advising us, they are influencing you on what to buy, what to enjoy, what movies to watch, what to eat, hello, to buy chocolate. So we all kind of end up operating in identical ways and that restricts our ability for divergence. We shop at

• 26:16Jemma Sbeg?

  the same handful of stores because independent stores can't afford to be in business. We stream the same shows because that's what we see other people watching. And that's the things that the studios, you know, the studios only make so many things that they know will be hits now. We listen to the same songs that an algorithm pushes on us, or more likely, a label has decided are worth pushing because the artist is the next big thing. We eat at the same chains because small indie restaurants can't operate. We use the same apps because they're the ones that are functional. We even start speaking in the same language that we've absorbed from social media that sounds

• 26:57Jemma Sbeg?

  unique, but is not. Brain rot language, I think is what they call it. It's this deep irony that the internet has promised us infinite choice, infinite ideas, personalities, but has reduced our ability for complexity and for originality. There is actually an economic term for this. It's called global homogenization. The psychological way of describing it, though, is like social and behavioral convergence. So basically, as our environments influences, contexts become identical, we all start acting the same, meaning that the idea of niche, things that are different,

• 27:37Jemma Sbeg?

  don't really exist anymore. There was this really amazing BBC article written back in 2014 that described this in terms of the expansion of global brands and how brands like Starbucks, McDonald's, like all of those have started eliminating distinct cultures. And the author of this article, his name is Mark Pagel, he used the example of Starbucks. And he talks about how countries used to have their own coffee chains, their own ways of consuming caffeine. Cities used to have their own coffee houses and roasters that were unique to them. Towns used to have their independent local joint. Now you go to Tokyo, New York, Sydney, Mexico City, you get the same

• 28:19Jemma Sbeg?

  cappuccino, the same, you know, matcha cherry frappe. We all become united or shaped by these few things that have enough power or have enough money to influence us, when we used to have different experiences. The way we drank coffee, the way we ate food, the way we dressed, used to be different. The rise of AI has also prompted some people to be even more worried about this, particularly due to something called the standardization of thought. Basically,

• 28:49Jemma Sbeg?

  The more we rely on these tools, which have been programmed in a specific way, coded in a specific way, designed in a specific way to give us a certain answer, use a certain language, use an identical way of forming ideas, rely on specific sources and inputs, all of which are the same for all of us. The more we all start thinking, speaking, communicating, structuring arguments, structuring ideas in identical ways. There was this amazing article I just read from Columbia Business School released last year. It's titled, AI is Making You Boring. So if you wanna look it up, please do. And it talks about how, A, how dependency on AI is correlated to a reduction in creative and divergent thinking,

• 29:32Jemma Sbeg?

  which we know is a factor that makes somebody interesting. But that B, the more we rely on AI to handle logistical things for us. So even if it's not creative stuff, but we ask it to choose a restaurant, plan our travel itinerary, even get us from like A to B, even to give us advice to help us make decisions. The more we rely on it for that logistical stuff, the more we become like everybody else. Because it is giving people the same answers. It is giving you answers based on data, not based on you as an individual. Dr. Mattson, her team, who wrote this article, they examined what happens when people delegate their everyday decisions to AI agents.

• 30:12Jemma Sbeg?

  They studied a hundred and ten thousand real world choices made by a thousand US social media users. They analyzed what people selected when acting on their own compared to what they selected when they were asking an AI agent to choose on their behalf or make a decision based on an AI prompt. The result showed using AI pushed people towards more popular mainstream options. It reduced the distinctiveness of their behavior compared to others. In other words, overreliance on AI tended to average out human individuality.

• 30:52Jemma Sbeg?

  It just steered everybody towards the most statistically common or widely liked or repeated answer. It's why I'm so insistent in my own life that I don't use AI for my decision making. I won't use it to think for me, regardless of how much time saving it is or how much efficiency it it it gives me. I would rather the friction of having to spend more time on things or the possibility of choosing the wrong restaurant or choosing the wrong place to visit or making a bad choice. I'd rather that possibility than the certainty and the promise of losing myself and and losing my uniqueness to a technology and becoming dependent on something that it's becoming increasingly evident is very cognitively and psychologically damaging.

• 31:37Jemma Sbeg?

  You know, the studies coming out on this are just shocking and it really actually really scares me sometimes. Especially when we're talking about being interesting and maintaining individuality. This is a huge threat. How can you be an individual person when every choice is made by a machine that tells everybody else to also make the same choice? Now, I've seen some very interesting arguments that have said, because of this current technological and cultural climate, individuality is now becoming the status symbol. When everybody is the same, everybody is converging around a norm, good taste becomes increasingly rare and it becomes increasingly interesting. It's also, as some thinkers believe, the most AI-proofed skill and asset.

• 32:19Jemma Sbeg?

  Genuine individual thought, genuine interest, genuine passion, genuine curiosity cannot be replaced by AI. So now more than ever, being interesting isn't just something that helps you socially. Isn't just something that maybe makes people more attracted to you or helps you in dating. It's important for you career-wise to be an interesting person and to have a unique identity. However, I will say, I think the final factor I would bring up is just a lot of us becoming less interesting because we are also becoming more time poor as well. That's making it harder for us to pursue the activities, the interests, the hobbies, even the kind of deep thinking that makes us unique.

• 33:01Jemma Sbeg?

  This is also, interestingly, I think what also drives us to rely on our algorithms and to rely on AI as well. Because when we just have so little time, they simplify the time we need to spend thinking, which to us feels like something we can, you know, give away to a machine. Without a doubt, like when you have to work really long hours and then you have to commute on top of that and then you have to take care of yourself, maybe your children, maybe a pet, maybe, you know, somebody that you perform caregiving tasks for. When you have to do all these other things that necessitate healthy living, like exercising, making home-cooked meals, socializing, sleeping, and then you're meant to have a personality on top of that, like it is hard.

• 33:46Jemma Sbeg?

  It's difficult. You only have twenty-four hours. So I don't want the focus of this episode to be like, you're not interesting because you're lazy. Or like, you're not interesting because you spend too much time using AI or social media. No, no, no, no, it's not the case. Sometimes it is that we are just so tired all the time. And there are so many different things vying for our attention, important things, that being interesting is not a priority. You know, it would be so much easier to be interesting if you had like a mysterious source of income that allowed you to travel all the time. Or a mysterious source of income that like allows you to take on creative projects on a whim

• 34:25Jemma Sbeg?

  or take a day off to follow your curiosity or spend days like deep diving into something or your thoughts or your ideas. That's just not an option for most of us. That's just not an option. We have to be very clear about that. So those are the three major factors that are making us feel less interesting collectively. They all kind of tie into this like branch under capitalism. How do we circumvent that? I know I said that sometimes individual choice doesn't count for much in this, but I do think there are some things that you can do if this is a priority for you, if you do have the time and the space and you do have the desire to be more interesting as a person to others and to yourself. Okay, let me get into my tips, shall I?

• 35:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Firstly, I want you to remember the cardinal rule that we talked about like at the very beginning. The most interesting people are those who are interested in others first. And the most direct pathway to showing this interest and embracing this is twofold. Firstly, talk more to strangers. Secondly, learn how to ask better questions. Talk more to strangers because you just expand your worldview about a thousand times. Every single time you talk to somebody who has a different story to you. The stories you hear, the interactions you have, the perspectives you gain, the side quests you end up going on. Like, it puts you more in touch with humanity in general. It makes you more interesting

• 35:53Jemma Sbeg?

  because you just aren't only in your own head. And when you're talking to these people, like you are doing something that is so crucial if you wanna be more interesting, which is not just ruminating and letting your own thoughts be the only kind of like compass for your reality. We become quite boring and uninteresting when we only believe that the thoughts we have could be the correct ones. When we only see our own perspective, talking to strangers, A, is just fun if you can get used to it. I know it's hard if you're an introvert, but it is fun when you lean into it. B, it's good for you. It's good for you psychologically. It's good for you cognitively to to just see the world even for a second

• 36:37Jemma Sbeg?

  through the eyes of somebody else and to take that in as an experience. Now, when you're talking to strangers or even talking to friends or colleagues or family members, whoever. If you wanna do it well, stop making the focus be on you. Most of us implicitly ask questions, searching for a specific response, searching for a specific answer. We we ask specific questions to direct a conversation in our favor. Maybe even back to us without realizing it. Let's all be honest, we've all, we have all asked a question, asked somebody a question, I should say, because we wanted them to ask us the same question back.

• 37:23Jemma Sbeg?

  We can admit that. We've done that before. But good questions are what we call pro collaborative and pro narrative building. So they don't just bring about answers. You're not just mining for detail. They build on it and then they build on that and then they build on that and they create a structure, they create a story. They don't just look for, they're not just creating random distinct answers to random distinct questions. You're creating a narrative, you're building something, a web between you and the other person. Generally, asking open-ended questions, often ones that begin with what, how, why, is a great place to start. This is because it just allows people to answer in ways that represent their opinions

• 38:08Jemma Sbeg?

  rather than just state facts about themselves, which is very, very valuable. Then it's about taking their response and genuinely asking yourself, what details about this am I genuinely curious about?

• 38:25Jemma Sbeg?

  It's not about can I ask a better question? What is a question I actually want the answer to? What have I never thought to ask someone who does this thing for work? Or who lives in this neighborhood? Or who has that specific hobby or who's visited that country? I call it detail mining. Once you ask a question, right? You've cracked someone open. The stuff below the surface is always going to be better. If someone says they're a teacher, that's your entry point. Don't move on. Ask them like, hey, what's the funniest thing a child has ever said to you? What are the parents like? Like, what, what, what have you? What's the craziest thing you've ever seen in the lunchboxes? If they work in retail, what's the craziest thing you've seen someone try and shoplift? Like, what's?

• 39:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Don't ask about details, ask for stories. The other thing to remember about being a good conversationalist and a person who is curious about other people generally, like, just curious, like, really wants to know and invites people in with that curiosity is that you have two ears and one mouth. Use them accordingly. It's like a very ancient proverb. Two ears, one mouth, use them accordingly. There is this professor, Dr. Guy Ichkatov, I think is his name. And he's been studying listening for well over a decade. Literally, his, his expertise is on listening. And one of his main insights is that you can tell if a conversation is good or not. Not by what people are talking about, not by who's talking, not by how much people are speaking,

• 39:51Jemma Sbeg?

  but by looking at the listening patterns instead. Counterintuitive, right? But the more listening, the better. We think that good conversations have a lot of flow. No, the better people rate the conversation, the higher, like, people rate conversations higher and better when they are, when more listening is involved. Because it facilitates more introspection, facilitates more self-disclosure, facilitates more vulnerability. And there's actually normally a through line in the conversation. He also says that in reality, the listener, you, the listener, is often the one who sets the tone of the conversation by using back-channel behaviours, which are verbal and non-verbal cues,

• 40:33Jemma Sbeg?

  physical, non-physical cues that affect the conversation on an unconscious level. There you go. You are in charge if you were, if you were the listener. Also, by being a listener, again, you become more interesting because you absorb all of these stories and perspectives and tidbits and facts and insights that others just miss because they only want to talk about themselves. Or they only want to talk about something that they're interested in. You become like a documentarian of everyday life and then you get to bring those stories to future conversations. Okay, I feel like I've laboured on that point. If you want to be interesting, be interested, ask good questions. Let's move on from that. The second thing you can do to make yourself more captivating and fascinating to others

• 41:18Jemma Sbeg?

  and just to make your more, like, make your life more interesting to you as well is to choose a niche thing that you love and get really good at it. Even if this niche thing makes you no money, even if it's really weird, even if it's literally of no use at all, even if it's uncool. Of all the things we've mentioned about interesting people, this is the one I haven't included. And that is, interesting people go deep. They go deep, they value depth. They value trying. They have layers to them. They have stuff they really care about and they show that through

• 42:00Jemma Sbeg?

  the investment of effort, time, skill, patience, care. Even the most boring hobbies in the world. And I'm sorry if I'm going to say some, I'm sorry if this is your hobby, but like, stamp collecting, bird watching, fishing, lockpicking. Sorry if that's your hobbies, but if you go deep enough, you will find, and I'm sure you can say this is true, you will find something truly fascinating. You will encounter a whole new dictionary of terms, expertise and skill. You will encounter the gossip of these communities. And the more you go deep, I also think the more you enjoy something because you can, because there's more like layers and levels of it for you to like push up against.

• 42:43Jemma Sbeg?

  And that contributes, of course, to the growth of your personality, through the growth of a skill. I think a lot of us stay in the shallow end of things, especially in the age of instant gratification and fast dopamine, because it's very easy and we're tired. And if it's not immediately rewarding, if we're not immediately good at it, if we don't immediately find something interesting about this thing, we abandon it. But if you want, if your priority in listening to this episode is you really want to expand yourself, you have to stay a little bit longer. You have to really, much like in a conversation, like drill, drill, drill deeper into your passions to get to the good stuff. And I will say, it doesn't have to be a hobby.

• 43:28Jemma Sbeg?

  It could be a part of history you know heaps about. My friend Holly, we knows a ridiculous amount about Anne Boleyn. We went to Greenwich the other day, I was like shocked. I was like, this, um, you're so interesting to me. Obviously, she's my friend, so she's already interesting, but I was like, wow, that's so cool. You can start collecting something, get really obsessed by it. You know, rare copies of a book, badges, trinkets. I met a guy the other day who had a collection of 5,000 comic books. And I think I scared him a little bit because I was like, I had so many questions for him. I was like, when did that happen? Where do you store them? What's your favourite one? Because how interesting is that? Like, depth is the secret to a full and interesting and meaningful life.

• 44:10Jemma Sbeg?

  On that, a bonus tip, if you will, you can literally make researching your hobby. I've seen so many people talking about this online. There's one girl in particular, and I'm sorry, I can't remember her name. She's so cool and she has this notebook of topics that she thinks are interesting. Or like people in history, she hears people mention or like random buildings. She'll like see a building and be like, oh, I wonder when that was built. I wonder, um, you know, who that celebrity was married to. I wonder how this thing came to be. And she has this little notebook and when she's bored, so like, say she's commuting or she's like at a doctor's office, instead of doom scrolling, which just feels like the natural impulse these days, she'll open her little book and she'll be like, okay, what am I going to research today?

• 44:56Jemma Sbeg?

  And she researches and she gains knowledge and she gains tidbits and she gains facts that other people value. This is a really crucial point of this whole episode. Being interesting requires effort. And it requires, at times, a departure from your norm. If you really want to curate an exciting internal and external life that draws others in, that is magnetic, but also which fascinates you, the person living it, you have to get off your phone and back into your life. You have to make conscious choices to pursue the thing, the hobby, the collection, the research, the interest that causes a bit more friction,

• 45:40Jemma Sbeg?

  but brings about a lot greater psychological, emotional and cognitive reward. I want to get into that a little bit more, actually. The importance of friction. But I do have to take one more short break here. So I promise I'll be right back. Stay with us.

• 46:02Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been approaching my health really differently this year. I used to be really focused on maximizing and doing more. And now I'm just realising that if I listen to what my body needs, I perform way better. And that's why I am obsessed with my Whoop. Truly, you guys, you know, I'm such a data and information-driven person. And I love opening my Whoop app and seeing how my sleep, my stress, my strain is correlating with my mood, with my running performance, with how I'm just feeling day to day. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, but I do really benefit. And I also just really enjoy knowing more about my body. And Whoop also gives me these actionable, personalised insights

• 46:45Jemma Sbeg?

  that have made me more intentional and meant that I make smarter decisions day to day about what I need, rather than just putting my foot on the gas and just going, going, going, going. New members can try Whoop with a 30-day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join.whoop.com/psychology for your free month of Whoop. This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over 14 years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise,

• 47:30Jemma Sbeg?

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• 47:43Jemma Sbeg?

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• 48:26Jemma Sbeg?

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• 49:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something that really frustrates me is when wellness brands greenwash their products to make them seem more clean or better for the environment when they are actually not. When you look into it, they are kind of just like the rest of them. Nature's Sunshine, however, doesn't just talk about the planet. They do something about it. They sustainably source ingredients. They craft their supplements with 100% solar powered manufacturing. And their products are incredible. I don't drink coffee. And so Nature's Sunshine Brain Edge gives me that kick I sometimes need

• 49:54Jemma Sbeg?

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• 50:35Jemma Sbeg?

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• 50:42Jemma Sbeg?

  As we said before the break, being more interesting, and I know there's a lot of things to keep track of, so I'm sorry. But being more interesting is about cultivating your external life to reflect your internal interests and actually pursuing them and putting effort into the things you enjoy. And another way to do that is by setting yourself small challenges that make you work for something. That could be a physical challenge, yes, also an intellectual challenge as well. Have a purpose, have a mission, have a goal you're working towards. And make it fun and interesting and weird. Read like one genre of fiction book every single month. And at the end of the year, have 12. Listen to like a daily news podcast every single morning.

• 51:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Learn how to identify every single bird, tree, wildflower in your local park. Memorize every country on a map. Visit every museum in your city. Give yourself projects that have no obvious reward other than becoming somebody who knows things and who can say, I did this weird thing. I set this weird goal and I did it. The point isn't that these specific pursuits are inherently interesting. It's that they expand the catalog of ideas, stories and perspectives that you carry around with you. You stop becoming somebody who simply consumes whatever the algorithm serves up to you. Which, don't get me wrong, that's me. But you stop being that and you start becoming someone

• 52:09Jemma Sbeg?

  who has pursued knowledge, pursued self-growth deliberately and in a different vein to everybody else. The beautiful thing is that this doesn't just make you more knowledgeable. These challenges don't just make you smarter. They change the way your brain works beyond intelligence. There was a 2011 paper published in Behavioral Brain Research that shows that in adulthood, there is this new generation of neurons that can be found in the adult hippocampus. The thing is, most of these cells will die unless we engage them in some kind of effortful cognitive learning experience. It's called neurogenesis. When we do engage these cells, we basically are able to rewire our brain and form new patterns.

• 52:54Jemma Sbeg?

  But also, it helps prompt more divergent thinking, more imaginative thinking, a greater sense of self. Remember that term from before, divergence? We keep bringing it up. Well, when it comes to our intelligence, when it comes to our creativity, our personality, having a greater ability for divergent thinking means that you are better able to connect ideas that to other people would seem unrelated. You're better able to connect spontaneous thoughts. You're better able to use your imagination to be original. This expands how interesting you are as a person. Because you end up having cognitive patterns that are completely different to everybody else. You end up not just having the same thoughts and ideas all the time.

• 53:39Jemma Sbeg?

  And you're not just having the same thoughts and ideas as everybody else, but ones that are unique to you, based on things that other people aren't trying. I have been doing my own version of an intellectual challenge recently on my Substack. I'm going to shamelessly plug it right now. But every single week, I have challenged myself to review one psychology study fully, from beginning to end, and to summarize it in 700 words or less. That is 52 papers in 52 weeks, beyond the research I already do for this podcast. And I'm just learning so much. I can, I can feel my brain thinking differently, if that makes sense. You can follow along if you want. We send them out to people.

• 54:23Jemma Sbeg?

  So you, if you like sign up with your email, you get every single week and you study to your inbox. Once a week, it's like literally takes like five minutes to read if your goal is to become more interesting and to have more interesting things to think about or to contribute to conversations. This is an amazing resource for that. But again, like I said, it's just, it's just changed how my brain operates. It changes what I bring to conversations. That's enough. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. That's enough self-promotion. Let's get into my final two tips. One of which is very much on the theme of just do shit, which is actually plan things for your weekend. Don't just expect the weekend to come and it to be full of lots of fun stuff by accident. Learn to be the friend who initiates plans.

• 55:08Jemma Sbeg?

  Learn to be the friend who looks up what is happening in the area you live in, who knows the exhibitions, the markets, has the bucket list of places, hikes, breweries, towns nearby. Go by yourself or go with other people. Invite them into your quest for a more interesting life. I speak a lot, a lot, a lot about the importance of having a bucket list as an adult because I think they are so underrated. A bucket list is basically like having a plan or a direction for how you're going to spend your free time. It is like having a gym routine, like, but for your leisure. It is a gym routine for your time off. And it gives you like a sense of like, oh, I don't have anything to do today. I'm going to do this.

• 55:50Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm going to actually like tick something off this list of things I want to do. Something me and my friends, and in terms of talking about inviting people in, something that we've been doing every couple of weeks is that one of us has to basically plan an outing for the rest of the group. We go to national parks. We went to Richmond the other day. We went to Greenwich, like literally three days ago. We went to the Maritime Museum. We went to a beer festival. We go to like art festivals. At the very least, it gives you something to say in your Monday meeting other than just like, yeah, my weekend was fine. Like, yeah. Again, I want to link this back to early points. What makes somebody interesting? They're authentic. They have passion.

• 56:34Jemma Sbeg?

  They also know the importance of novel experiences and the way this shapes your character, the way this shapes your worldview and the way that it shapes your interest in the world around you. When you are interested in the world around you, it is infectious. People become interested in you in return. For my final piece of advice, though, I'm going to completely contradict a lot of what I've been saying. I'm going to contradict one of the major through lines of this episode. I know I've been going on and on about how, I just said it, interesting people are interested in others. You get it by now? I've made the point. Another thing we need to do to be more interesting, though, is to let people be interested in us.

• 57:19Jemma Sbeg?

  And to accept that we have something to say and to accept that people like us for our own authentic, pure reasons and to put those parts of us on display. Often we expect that people aren't going to be curious about us. They don't want to know anything more about who we are. They're just asking because they have to. But this is something which psychology has shown can become a self fulfilling prophecy. If we go into every situation thinking, everybody here is more interesting than me. Nobody really cares about what I have to say. And if this is coming from past wounds of being rejected and you walk in and you have this attitude of like, I really shouldn't be here. I don't think these people are going to like me. The sad thing is, is that they probably won't.

• 58:04Jemma Sbeg?

  Because unconsciously, we're sending out these signals that are like, leave me alone. Don't talk to me. Instead, we need to reframe having good social charisma as actually just having social courage. We really need to learn to accept, unsuppress parts of ourselves that we might think other people are going to find too much or boring or awkward or difficult. Because again, psychology shows that it's not so much about what we talk about, but how we talk about it and how we show up and our curiosity about the world. Basically, people can tell when we're coming from a place of authenticity or not. There was a study from two thousand and nine that looked into what qualities are present

• 58:49Jemma Sbeg?

  in people who are generally consistently liked. And in this study, participants were invited to join a social group. Their introduction was filmed and then that introduction was assessed. Three sets of observers independently rated each of these individuals genuine sense of warmth, confidence, authenticity and charisma and whether or not they liked them. What this study found is that warmth, being open, fully accounted for the link between expecting acceptance and actually receiving it. Confidence, being social, mood, even motivation, like it didn't, it wasn't as significant. It wasn't correlated as positively.

• 59:32Jemma Sbeg?

  You are more interesting, you are more likable if you enter a situation with genuine openness and with a intrinsic knowledge or belief that they're going to like you. They're going to like you because you like yourself. They're going to like you because there is something about you that is deep and interesting and fascinating. There was another study, I think it was the same study, but a second round that where they wanted to see like, do people who have genuine warmth and openness, are they accepted? And it was with this group of straight men and they uh basically were told they're going to interact with this very attractive woman. And some of the men were given like these cues or like these clues that this woman would reject them and and others weren't.

• 1:00:14Jemma Sbeg?

  And in the study, the men who were subliminally convinced to expect rejection, their their behavior was was done for. They came off as cold, they came off as not very nice, they weren't liked by the observers. But the men who weren't told that they were at risk of being rejected remained warm, remained open, they were more liked by the observers. It doesn't matter if you think you're going to be rejected or not, you just can't think it. If you expect to be liked by other people, if you go in believing that like, people are going to think that I'm interesting, I find myself interesting, of course, they're going to believe that. If you go in convinced that people are going to find you fascinating because you are because because you have something to offer, because you pour into your own internal world and

• 1:00:58Jemma Sbeg?

  that once more, if they don't, that's fine. That is what creates the more positive self fulfilling prophecy that makes you more interesting. And this, my friends, this is the core of what we have been talking about all day. Yes, an interesting person has depth. Yes, they have curiosity for others. They have passion, they're a bit different. More often than not, they just don't think too deeply about acceptance from others because they either know it's guaranteed or they know that it's just a bonus. It's a nice thing to have, but they like themselves. They have this entire secret garden, this entire inner world that they can return to. They have internal acceptance that frees up more mental space to just do life, to just

• 1:01:41Jemma Sbeg?

  do things, to just be passionate, to be interested. And I think that's really what we're trying to curate. And what a beautiful, easy way to wrap up this episode. The most interesting people in the world don't care if they're interesting. They care if they're enjoying themselves. They care if they're challenging themselves. They care about, like, is it cliched to say they care about having fun? But it's true, that's like the secret to life. They care about getting the most out of their life. And I think that is conclusively, at the end of the day, what you need to focus on. Don't worry so much about, is this person going to like me? Don't worry so much about trying to curate a life or a presence that is, you know, that

• 1:02:23Jemma Sbeg?

  is likable or that hits on certain factors that you think are going to make people think you're better or worse than you are. The most magnetic thing is that you just like choose something that you enjoy, choose a collection of things that you enjoy and just like are led by genuine passion for them and go deep and let that devotion kind of expand outwards and and capture people and be genuinely curious about what expands them and what makes them feel good and what they're passionate about. Like, that is really the secret. Took me like fifty minutes to get there, but I hope that it was helpful. I hope that you learned something. I hope that it inspires you to just rethink some of the choices you're making, but also rethink some of the beliefs you have about whether or not you're interesting, because

• 1:03:08Jemma Sbeg?

  I promise you, you most certainly are. I meet you guys, I meet listeners like yourself and every single one of you is just as interesting as the last. And I'm always endlessly fascinated by how you guys are always doing the coolest stuff and know yourselves much better than you think you do. So, yeah, I think this is just a little, probably a reminder. I'm sure you're already doing so much of what we spoke about. I want to thank our researcher Lucy Davidson for her contributions to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please check out an episode on Netflix. It really does help us out. I feel like I'm begging, but it's, yeah, it really does help us and we put a lot of effort into it. So it'd be great if we could see you over there. You can also follow us on Instagram. Confirm that theory I have.

• 1:03:52Jemma Sbeg?

  If you were a weird kid, are you an interesting adult? Yes or no? Actually, leave a comment down below. Like, if you've made it this far, you're listening on Spotify. If you're not, you can DM me if you're listening on Spotify. Yes or no, do you think you're more interesting as the result of your childhood weirdness? I definitely think I am. You can follow us on Substack, you can do all these things, there's additional research down below. Just go, go check it out if you so desire. And until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will talk very, very soon.

• 1:04:28Jemma Sbeg?

  I've been really trying to prioritize my health in a realistic way this year and something that has kept me really motivated is my Whoop. I am such a data person, which is why I love Whoop, because I can genuinely see why my body feels differently depending on the day, why I'm running differently, why I'm maybe less focused. Whoop effortlessly tracks my sleep, it tracks my strain, my recovery, my stress and most importantly, my overall health. And it just gives me all that data and all those patterns so I can make better decisions, which includes knowing when to go easy and knowing when to go hard. New members can try Whoop with a thirty day free trial before committing to a membership. That's join dot whoop dot com slash psychology for your free month of Whoop.

• 1:05:13Jemma Sbeg?

  This episode is sponsored by Gymshark. Gymshark has spent over fourteen years obsessing over gym clothing and the people who wear it. And let me just say, I think we all know, they are very, very good at what they do. No, seriously, their stuff is so good. Their everyday seamless collection is light, it's soft, it's stretchy. All of their stuff just looks good on and it's made for people who love to exercise, whatever exercise that is, lifting, cardio, Pilates, running around campus, maybe just doing errands. Discover Gymshark and find your new favorite gym clothing at gymshark dot com.

• 1:05:50Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:07:46Jemma Sbeg?

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