#2515 - Chase Hughes

Chase Hughes is an expert in behavioral profiling, influence, and persuasion. He is the creator of the Neuro-Cognitive Intelligence system, founder of the “Station One” YouTube channel, and the author of several books, including “The Behavior Ops Manual” and “Tongue: A Cognitive Hazard.”www.youtube.com/@Station-Onewww.youtube.com/@chasehughesofficialhttps://nci.universitywww.chasehughes.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Get 30% off snacks and groceries on Uber Eats. https://www.ubereats.com/feeds/wfootball_2026_us Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Show you my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day.

• 0:11Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you, Joe.

• 0:14Speaker 03

  Good to see you, man.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  What's happening? How are you?

• 0:17Speaker 03

  Good. Been really good. Just got in Austin last night.

• 0:20Joe Rogan?

  I watched these videos of you describing this intravenous DMT experience. And the first thing I said is, I need to talk to this guy about that. That seems like one of the most insane descriptions of anything that anybody's ever experienced that I've ever seen online.

• 0:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  So, tell me about this experience.

• 0:43Speaker 03

  So, it's DMT, and this guy makes it. And they put it into a pump. And it's like an anesthesia pump that you'd have in like, an operating room. And essentially, they can adjust your, like, milliliters per hour dose, like, they would use for anesthesia. And, like, they launch you off, and you're laying, the space is beautiful. They hold the space really well. And they can-

• 1:13Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by that? They hold the space really well?

• 1:16Speaker 03

  Like, it's a beautiful space. Like, it's this amazing place where you lay down in the middle of the room. It's like, on a really soft pillow thing. And great music on, and, like, it's very calm. And these people are just unbelievably calm and good human beings to take you through the experience. And the cool thing about this pump is that you can adjust your altitude. So, like, you could be in the middle of this and say, I need to go up more, I want to come down. If you need to take a pee break, they'll, like, pull you down, you kind of go onto the runway, and then you go pee, and you come back, and you launch right back up, as high as you want to go, as fast as you want to go.

• 1:59Speaker 03

  So, it's five and a half hours. And we did, I did one pee break. But it is, it's DMT, like, the highest you can feel on DMT, like, the most you can see on DMT, but it's five and a half hours of that. And the next time I go back, we're going to mix Alzheimer's drugs with this.

• 2:24Joe Rogan?

  Why?

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Uh, to see how much I can bring back, to see if it improves like the retrieval like, cause you know, like when you, when you're in the DMT space, you're like, I have access to all this stuff like, oh my God, I wish I could bring this back. I want to bring this back so bad. And

• 2:41Joe Rogan?

  It seems like we're protected from bringing it back.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  It does. It does.

• 2:45Joe Rogan?

  Like a dream.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:47Joe Rogan?

  It's, there's, there's real similar comparisons to the dream state.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51Joe Rogan?

  The dream state is very strange. I've had like profound dreams and, or, or really bizarre dreams. And when I wake up, they're so crystal clear. And with, I go to take a pee, I have a cup of coffee.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:04Joe Rogan?

  I can't remember them anymore.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:06Joe Rogan?

  I barely, barely can grip them. They just slide through your fingers.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  It's like we, there is a protective layer there.

• 3:15Joe Rogan?

  It seems like it has to be because if there was anything that you experienced in the regular conscious state that was that profound, you would remember it forever.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:23Joe Rogan?

  Just think of a great thing, just UFC fight this weekend. I remember everything. Oh my God, it's so like drilled into my brain. And that is like, nothing compared to a DMT experience.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's, it, it just seems like I've never met someone who's done DMT that would just call, oh yeah, it's a psychedelic. It's a hallucination. I've never met anybody that's actually done it. And then we'll, we'll just go back and say, I hallucinated something.

• 3:51Joe Rogan?

  There's a few people that say that. I've, I've actually, I've read this one piece by this guy. I forget his discipline. I forget, but, but serious academic and his, his position after, I think he did like a hundred DMT trips. And his position was that this is all being concocted by your visual cortex and your brain, your imagination. That was his position, but.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  I mean, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you go to Walmart on a DMT trip then?

• 4:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't, I don't think that's what, I just think, you know, it's cause it's very disorienting and you know, you really should sit still. But I think that there's contrarians.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  No, I mean like in the DMT space, why don't you just see a Target or a 7-Eleven or something?

• 4:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, right, right, right. I see what you're saying. Something that your imagination could concoct, like a dream. Like in a dream, you might be at Target.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you, you had on Andrew Gallimore.

• 4:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I did.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  And he talked about this world making part of our brain.

• 4:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  And man, that really hooked me in. And during the six hour journey experience, whatever you want to call it. At the end of, I mean, it's DMT, like you're, like, it's just, reality's gone. Like, you, like, everything, oh, yeah, you see all this stuff that you think is real? Goodbye. It's like, everything's gone. And at the end of this, I, I, on camera, I asked if I was dead thirty-nine times. Uh, I wasn't concerned with what the answer was. I just was like, am I dead? Um, and coming toward the end of this experience, I was bawling, I was crying.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  And it, it just felt like I had to wrap myself in some kind of ego in order to just return back here. To, to come back, there's no way for me to come back and not have some little ego, uh, thing. And it, it made me so sad, coming back, that I just didn't want to come back at all. You know what I'm talking about?

• 5:53Joe Rogan?

  It's like Avatar depression times a million.

• 6:00Joe Rogan?

  For people that don't know what I'm talking about, um, when the movie Avatar came out, it was so wonderful. And they experienced, and they, they, these people seemed like to live such a righteous, peaceful existence in the forest, that people came back and they, they were depressed that they don't live in the Avatar world.

• 6:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:18Joe Rogan?

  It was, it was like a psychological condition that was, it was happening with so many different therapists that people started calling it Avatar depression.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  That's brilliant. It, it, it's got a name. Like, in the nineties, there was the Truman Show Syndrome.

• 6:33Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right, right. But, I mean, how badass is your fucking movie? And it creates a psychological condition in people that wish that reality was like your movie.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love that. It, it, it did feel like that, times ten thousand.

• 6:49Joe Rogan?

  Times a million or whatever it is, yeah.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  And it, one of the things that... I didn't know happened was my wife was with me, Michelle. And the night before, when we were at their house, they just said, you can pick a vial. And I said, let Michelle pick, pick a vial. And I was in the other room and Michelle was with this guy who makes the DMT. And he said, would you like to pray over this DMT? And Michelle did that and I didn't, I didn't even know she prayed over it. And the next day, and I'm not saying there's anything here, but when it started, the first thing that happened was like these alien beings or whatever, kind of pinned me down on this table and ripped me open, like from pelvis all the way up to my neck, like all the way open.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  And I could hear my organs kind of moving around inside my body and they're doing something in me. And the second thing was they pushed my head back up on the table and they, this big drill bit went up inside of my nose, like all the way to the back of my head. It didn't hurt. There's no pain or anything. And it was, they were doing that for probably 45 minutes. A long time and it was freezing cold. And then after this journey, I told Michelle about this and she's like, that's what I asked them to do. I asked them to fix your heart and your brain. Cause I have a heart thing going on and I have a, a brain disease, which is why I was doing this in the first place. And that was the first thing that happened on the, on the journey. I'm not saying there's causation.

• 8:14Joe Rogan?

  Did you get looked at afterwards to see if they did anything?

• 8:18Speaker 03

  I haven't because they have to do a PET scan and it's so much radiation.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  It's like, it's so much radiation, I can't even hug or sleep with my wife or, or my, our, our two-year-old for like 48 hours. It's a ton of radiation.

• 8:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fuck that. What is the condition that you have?

• 8:38Speaker 03

  I had, in the brain, I have mesial temporal sclerosis.

• 8:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we talked about this the last time you were here.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I had a seizure like the night before our, our.

• 8:46Joe Rogan?

  This is the thing that you said that methylene blue was really helping you with.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  You know how many people have ripped that out of our show and like made commercials for their, their company and stuff out of it?

• 8:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I'm used to that. There's somebody ads for me selling everything.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:00Joe Rogan?

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• 11:20Speaker 03

  And if I don't take methylene blue for a couple of days, I'll go back into seizure territory pretty quickly. Really? Yeah. But I will say, just to go back to this dream thing that you were talking about. The way that I like get people to help like understand this, like if you're in it, I'll walk you through this really quick. Let's say you're in a dream right now and I'm just here in your dream. We're chilling out, hanging out. And let's say you don't know it's a dream yet. And I look over and I say like, what is that UFO spaceship over there? How far is that from your face right now? And you look over at that flying saucer thing, you'd be like, oh, it's eight, eight feet or something like that.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  But then if I, if you know it's a dream and I ask you, how far is it? You're still gonna say, oh, it's eight feet. And then I ask, what is it made out of? You're gonna say, oh, it's aluminum or, you know, whatever that thing's made out of. But there's no aluminum in your brain. Right? So like, and then I ask you again, like, what is it made out of? And you eventually you'll get to a place where you say it's made out of me. It's made out of consciousness. Then I say, what is the distance made out of? That entire eight feet of distance is also made out of your consciousness. And then I say, well, why did you have to manufacture eyeballs in your dream to see out of? And then what are the photons? Like you're seeing colors and all this stuff in your dream. There's no photons bouncing off of stuff in your dream.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  The entire body is fabricated, your eyes are fabricated. Like you're seeing all this stuff without your eyeballs at all. But you made up eyeballs to see it all through. And then the distance, like from you to that flying saucer, you say it's eight feet. The distance is zero. Like there's not eight feet inside of your brain. So kind of walk people in to show that everything that you would do, like not in a dream, like sitting here in the studio to prove that this pitcher of water is real. Uh, you could do identical, you could do everything in a dream that you would do in waking reality to prove that something is real. And then you realize that the distance between you and that thing is A, made up of consciousness and B, doesn't exist.

• 13:33Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Does that make sense?

• 13:36Joe Rogan?

  It does make sense. It does make sense. Because we assume that because we have tools to measure distance and sound and touch and all those different different senses that we possess, that this is what the world's made out of.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it makes sense. So like, and there's dream logic, right? So like, if you're all of a sudden riding on your rhinoceros to the pizza factory, you're like, oh yeah, it's normal.

• 14:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  So that if you look at like a galaxy, it matches this the shape of DNA. If you look at the toroidal shape of like gravitational stuff, it matches the shape of a red blood cell. You look at an eyeball close up, it looks like a, like a nebula. And if we just look at as above, so below, like any of that is even remotely true, then dreams might tell us more than we think about what's going on here in this, what we call reality.

• 14:31Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever seen the comparison between the universe itself and a human neural tissue?

• 14:37Speaker 03

  No.

• 14:38Joe Rogan?

  It's bananas.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Is it like a?

• 14:39Joe Rogan?

  It's identical.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  An image?

• 14:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's like an image of the known universe with an image of, is it a brain cell or a human neural cell? I forget which one it was. But when you look at the two of them together, you're like, okay, is this whole thing a giant fractal inside of a fractal? Inside of, if that's what infinity is, you know, infinity, we'd like to think that like this is what it looks like. That's a brain cell and that's the universe.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  Good lord.

• 15:06Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck?

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Oh my gosh.

• 15:09Joe Rogan?

  It's the same thing. So it's, if, at least it looks like the same thing, right? You know, when we think of infinity, we think of what we are here on earth, that there is no distance that you could travel where you find the end. That the infinite universe just keeps going on. But it's way crazier than that. It might be that the entire infinite universe that doesn't have an end is actually a part of a cell. That's in another being.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:41Joe Rogan?

  That's in an infinite universe that has no end. That's actually just a part of a cell.

• 15:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:46Joe Rogan?

  It's in a part of an infinite, and it goes on and on and on.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:51Joe Rogan?

  And we have some evidence that that might be the case just in the weirdness of these supermassive black holes that are in the center of every galaxy. So these supermassive black, we had Michelle Fowler on the podcast the other day, fascinating woman. She's an astrophysicist and just discussing all the strangeness of the universe, the more that we experience it, the more, the deeper they look, the crazier it is. It's like the further the James Webb Telescope goes out, the more shit that they find. They're like, what is going, what is that? How is that there? This is not supposed to be there. They think that there's a real possibility that inside every black hole is a completely new universe.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:33Joe Rogan?

  That it's some sort of a passageway. So if there's hundreds of billions of galaxies, just in the known universe, and every one of those galaxies has a supermassive black hole inside of it, in the center of it, you go through that and you are in hundreds of billions of new galaxies, all with black holes. And then you go into those fucking universes and you find creatures with brains and you get to their brain and their brain looks like a universe. And if you get closer and closer and closer, you might see hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with black holes inside their fucking brain cells.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Yes. That was well said.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  It's.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  That needs to be a short.

• 17:15Joe Rogan?

  But it's, it's infinite.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:17Joe Rogan?

  So there's no end to that process. It's not like there's us and then we are a part of a brain cell of a creature. No, we're a part of a brain cell that's a part of a creature, that's a part of a universe, that's a part of a brain cell, that's a creature, that's a part of a universe. And that's what real infinity is. There is no end.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I agree with that. And, and we need less certainty about this shit. There's so many people are like, oh, I have this figured out.

• 17:43Joe Rogan?

  What you said about coming back from the DMT trip, about how your ego tries to kind of reclaim reality for you. I think that is a genuine problem with human beings today, in which they cling to ideologies, to political parties, to ethics, morals, religion, whatever it is, that they, they connect themselves to inseparably. I think part of that is just being afraid of the vastness of what this experience really is. And the, the way to shield yourself from it is to pretend to be sure.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  That's it. Yeah. It just gives me a little blanket of, I've got this figured out. I know what's happening.

• 18:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you know, you know, security blanket.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  And it's, it's, we need less certainty in the world.

• 18:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  We need more people to say, as far as we know, before they say some shit.

• 18:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  That sounds sciency. As far as we know. Why can't we just put that phrase in, in front of more things? And if you're doing DMT, it just, or if anyone does DMT, maybe it's a hallucination. But Terrence McKinnis described it so well when he said, death by astonishment.

• 18:54Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  And there's no words. At the moment, you try to like label anything that you see in the DMT space, it's like you're destroying, it's an act of destruction, almost.

• 19:05Joe Rogan?

  There's no words for it. They don't exist. Cause words, words are sounds that we make with our face to describe known reality. And that, there's no words for that experience.

• 19:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we invented language for trading chickens and spices and stuff. That's, that's what language is for.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  And if you just look at like one little sciency thing, like that's weird, like quantum entanglement. And then somebody says, we can't explain how this is like faster than light or anything. Well, we can explain it if we go to a dream and then say the distance doesn't exist.

• 19:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  The distance isn't real.

• 19:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  So I think that's, I want to know about the UFC fight at the White House.

• 19:46Joe Rogan?

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• 20:30Joe Rogan?

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• 20:51Speaker 03

  Was the temperature make, make everything different?

• 20:53Joe Rogan?

  It was perfect. No, the temperature was perfect. I was very concerned about that. I was really concerned that these guys are going to have to fight in the heat, but that was not an issue at all. It seemed like it was in the seventies. And it was, the storm like miraculously just passed us. Like there was all these weather warnings at one point in time. The fight was supposed to start at 8:00 PM. And at one point in time, one of the weather experts wanted us to start at 10:30. Yeah, because 10:30 that, which would have been a disaster. 10:30 at night would have been a disaster because it's a six hour show.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:30Joe Rogan?

  You know, or close to it, whatever it is. X, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 1. I guess it was five hours, but.

• 21:39Joe Rogan?

  Somehow or another, the storm just like, almost like, went around the White House. I mean, I don't know.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Mysteriously.

• 21:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's science, or if that's consciousness. I don't know what steered the storm, or if it's just random luck. It could have been all of the above. But, um, all my fears of the weather getting in the way of the fights were, they were null. It didn't mean anything. And then there was this long, sort of, um, ceremonial thing where they had jets fly over and, you know, they played music and all this different stuff. So, by the time we got to the actual fights, dark out, perfect. The weather was perfect. So that, that wasn't an issue at all. And it was just, the magnitude of the event. I know people saw it on television and it looked insane.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:29Joe Rogan?

  But the magnitude of the event being there live, so there's the event that's taking place on the lawn of the White House. And that has four thousand plus people.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  The main event.

• 22:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:41Joe Rogan?

  The, so the, the, the actual UFC. So there's, there's a bunch of military guys that are standing up in the back. There's like a thousand of those and there's three thousand plus that are seated. All these people are seated. But then, behind that, not that far, like a hundred yards, two hundred yards, whatever it is, I guess it's more than that. Maybe three hundred yards. There's the ellipse. The ellipse has eighty-five thousand people.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  This is on the ground.

• 23:10Joe Rogan?

  For free. Yes, it's like in the whole White House ecosphere, whatever it is.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 23:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so this area, they have giant screens set up and they have, you know, huge speakers and sound. And so eighty-five thousand fans are watching the fights live on the screens. And they can see the lights of the fucking, this claw dome in the distance. And they can see the White House in the distance where the fights are taking place, but they're watching it on massive screens with commentary. And it was insane. And you could hear them roar. So you hear the crowd from here and then you hear eighty-five thousand people in this fucking, rah! You could hear it in the distance. It was insane. It was insane. Just the magnitude of it was insane.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Unlike anything else you've ever done.

• 24:01Joe Rogan?

  Uh, beyond. I, I mean.

• 24:04Joe Rogan?

  I'm a hyperbolic individual and I'm always like this is the greatest, this is awesome. Like that was the wildest experience that I've ever had in my 20 whatever years of calling combat sports. There's nothing even close, nothing even close. It was the greatest night of fights of all time and it was the only night in the history of the sport where every single fight ended by a knockout.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Did they all?

• 24:30Joe Rogan?

  Every single one, seven fights, seven fights, every one of them ended by knockout.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:37Joe Rogan?

  Which never happens.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Which is unprecedented.

• 24:39Joe Rogan?

  Unprecedented.

• 24:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:41Joe Rogan?

  It was like the perfect experience for anybody that had never watched the UFC before to see it that way at the White House like that. I mean, it was, it was nuts. A huge experience for the fans that got to be there in the ellipse and I mean, I saw videos, these guys, they were having so much fun. It was like everyone's in there for free, you don't have to pay for the tickets, there's 85,000 people out there, they're all screaming and cheering and the drinks are flowing and it was wild. I mean, just absolutely wild.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  What a 250th.

• 25:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Wow. And, and it's a sport that was like banned just what 15, 20 years ago or something?

• 25:20Joe Rogan?

  20 plus years ago. So when the UFC, so when I first started working for the UFC was in 1997 and back then you had to watch it on DirecTV. I had DirecTV just because that was the only way to watch the UFC. That's why I didn't have cable. And then Zuffa purchased it, so the Fertitta brothers and Dana White, they, they started running it in 2001 and that's when I came aboard again. So I had quit in 98. I worked from 97 to 98 and then I quit and then they brought me back in 2001. And when that was going on, it was banned from cable and they slowly started working it back. They got it on Fox Sports Net, which was the first time I ever commentated for the UFC.

• 26:05Joe Rogan?

  That was UFC 37 and a half, a very special show that they put on for Fox Sports Net, tried to introduce people to the sport. And so that was the first time it was on like cable again. And then they started getting pay-per-view buys and it started growing and gathering steam, but even back then.

• 26:22Joe Rogan?

  Like, it was like you were doing porn or something, or snuff films, or you were doing something that was damaging for your career. You know, and people would like, look at you like, why are you, you're working for a cage fighting organization? Why would you do that? Cut to 25 years later, it's on the lawn of the White House, and it is one of the most watched sporting events in the history of the world.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't know what the total overall views are as of now, but I know that it was like, well over, I think it was 150 million, just by, just by Monday?

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 27:00Joe Rogan?

  Just by Monday. So that's like, the night of, and then people that watched the replay that weren't there when the fight took place, because they heard about it. But now, between now, and, between then and now, now we're dealing with Tuesday, like, it's probably another 50 or 60 million people have watched it.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  I bought Paramount Plus just to, just to watch it, on YouTube.

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  I don't know, 13 bucks or something, I think it was. But man, what a hell of an event.

• 27:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was an amazing event.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  I, I wish I would have stayed up longer, but I watched the first few fights, it was fantastic.

• 27:33Joe Rogan?

  The main event was the greatest fight of all time. It literally was the greatest fight of all time. Cause the guy that won it, Justin Gagey, was in many books, a 6 to 1 favorite, 6 to 1 underdog, rather. Which is crazy odds, for a guy that was a interim lightweight champion, fought the best of the best, one of the best to ever do it, BMF champion, I mean, just super durable, real dangerous guy. And that's how good Ilya Toporia is. That's how good Ilya Toporia is. Ilya Toporia, in many people's eyes, is the most skilled of the new generation, and the new generation is the most skilled of all time. And Ilya was like, the top of the mountain. And most people thought that he was going to be too much, and he was too much for a

• 28:17Joe Rogan?

  while, and he almost took Justin out in the second round. And then Justin rallied and then Ilya, it looked like he got really damaged in either the first or the second round and he was having real trouble seeing out of one of his eyes. And then Justin started landing bombs in the third round. Ilya had slowed down quite a bit. It looked like he had really tried to finish Justin in the second. And sometimes when you try to finish a guy, you just hit the gas way too much and you can't recover in between rounds. And Justin recovered and Justin started battering Ilya in the third and fourth and by the end of the fourth round, Ilya quit on his stool. He couldn't see out of either eye.

• 28:58Joe Rogan?

  He had got kneed into the body, to the body real bad when he was on the ground. Justin like literally, Justin had him down with his two hands and just smashed a knee into his rib cage and you could see him go like that and that was the end of the round. And then he had to retire on his stool. And I mean like.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  You think he broke a rib?

• 29:16Joe Rogan?

  That probably could have happened, but I think maybe more significantly was the eye damage. Both of his eyes were swollen shut, his nose was fucked up. He had, he'd taken so many punches to the face and it looked like perhaps orbital damage, like maybe he had a fractured orbital. Cause his, his whole thing had just swollen up on both sides. He was unrecognizable. And you know, the guy hung in there as long as he could, but when you can't see, you can't see. And when you're, you're that battered, sometimes it's smart to stop and he's a very smart guy and I think he realized like, there's, I can't defend myself right now. I can't see. This guy's smashing me. It's called a day. This is what it is.

• 29:57Joe Rogan?

  Let's preserve my body and my brain and rebuild and come back another day. But for Justin, it was like one of the most epic things I've ever seen in my life. For him to, to win like that when everybody had counted him out, he was saying it was gonna be his last fight. It was like a retirement fight. Thirty-seven years old, been in the game forever, you know, fought who's, a who's who of all time greats in the sport and this was gonna be his last fight. And he's like, what, if I can win the title at the White House, what an ending to a career. And that's what everybody was saying, like, yeah, but you're not gonna, because you're fighting Ilya Topuria. And he was like, alright, we'll see.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 30:33Joe Rogan?

  And he pulled it off. He pulled it, it was, it was insane. It was epic. Absolutely epic.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  What do you think that, what do you think the mindset is between somebody who, you know, you walk in as an underdog and wind up winning, even though your skills may not be more proficient than the other guy, what do you think the mental difference is between them, like, somebody who loses or wins?

• 30:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of factors. One of the factors is that Justin has always been incredibly durable. I mean, it might just be a genetic thing, he even joked around about it, like, "Science needs to take a look at this hard-ass skin I have." Like, he very rarely gets cut at all, and he's like, "I got these hard-ass bones and a hard-ass skin." He was joking around, like, "Science needs to study this." And it's true, though. I mean, he really is insanely durable. He's been rocked and hurt before, and he's been stopped in fights before. He was knocked out in the last second of the last round by Ma- Ma- excuse me, Max Holloway in the BMF title, which was an insane fight. But the guy is just, he has zero quit in him. It doesn't exist. Like, if you're looking for quit, you go into a room, it's empty.

• 31:38Joe Rogan?

  The quit room has no one in it. There's nothing in there. He's not gonna quit. He can lose, because he's a human, but he's not going to quit. And he's also been into the deep trenches before. The deep trenches of these five-round, chaotic, insane battles. And oddly, he thrives in those kind of battles. He's a guy, he's described as the most violent man in the most violent sport. That's, we've all talked about him like that for years, since the moment he burst onto the scene when he fought Michael Johnson, well, in the UFC at least. He just, he's an extraordinary dude, just a very extraordinary dude. And not the most technically skilled, like, Ilya looked technically better than him, but

• 32:23Joe Rogan?

  it didn't matter. Justin found a way to land shots, found a way to, like, persevere from the early fi- early rounds where he was in real trouble. And just... Shocked the world. It was amazing. One of the coolest things I've ever seen in my life.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  That's cool.

• 32:37Joe Rogan?

  It was fucking amazing.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Wish I was there.

• 32:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god. I I talked a bunch of people into going. I didn't want like Shane Gillis was thinking about not going. I'm like, bro, you gotta go. It's gonna be epic. It's gonna be a once ever thing. Not a once in a lifetime, once in anybody's lifetime. It's never happened before. It's probably never gonna happen again.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Probably not.

• 32:55Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:56Joe Rogan?

  That's something you have to see and experience.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:58Joe Rogan?

  And so many people are trying to make it a partisan thing like they're mad at people for being there like, oh, you support Trump like it's a it's a fucking fight at the White House. Doesn't mean you endorse foreign policy. Like, shut the fuck up.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  That's too much.

• 33:12Joe Rogan?

  Just please stop. And again, it's this thing, the ego thing, where people are just they just want so badly and on both sides, for sure. You know, the right celebrates this as a win for masculinity and patriotism and all these different things like, okay, settle down. Everybody settle down. We should all be together. And I mean, one of the things that I wanted to do when we went to the White House, try to push through psychedelics for therapy for veterans and people, you know, first responders, people struggling with PTSD, is you need to take these steps to give people a path to change their mind.

• 33:54Joe Rogan?

  I think that's the title of Michael Pollan's book, and it's a great way to describe it. Change your mind.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:00Joe Rogan?

  Change your whole perspective. And there's no better way to change your whole perspective than a complete dissolving of your ego momentarily.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:09Joe Rogan?

  At least for a while, just lock it all away, push it out, and then you get a chance to see what it actually is doing. And the effect that it has.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:18Joe Rogan?

  When you let it back into your life.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. How mu- how much of these clothes do you want to put back on?

• 34:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. I described it as like Ctrl, Alt, Delete for your brain. And then when your brain reboots, it has one folder, and that folder is just labeled my old bullshit.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:33Joe Rogan?

  And you have a decision to make. Do you go back into my old bullshit? And most people do at least a little. I do a little.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:41Joe Rogan?

  But for sure, you recognize that it's your old bullshit instead of thinking you are who you thought you are.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's a lot of stuff that wasn't didn't really belong to you. Like, it's like we act like decorator crabs all throughout our lives. We're just kind of grabbing these little things.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  And you you realize that. And I think that the we're just talking about this politics thing. I think separation is the number one greatest deception of all time. The the biggest problem with the biggest problem that we have and the biggest deception that we have. It's like we are separate. And the one thing that you see and you do it some of the and I mean this therapeutically. I don't mean you like you're taking mushrooms and going to go into a concert.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  When you when you do this like psych therapeutic psychedelics, the first big realization you have is like, oh, shit. This is all me. Like, we're all kind of connected. We might be one thing, but there's something here that's connecting all of us.

• 35:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Whatever that is, whether you want to call it consciousness or our souls are connected or something.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:47Joe Rogan?

  There's something where we're connected that we're kind of denying for some strange reason.

• 35:53Speaker 03

  And I think that that's one of the reasons.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  I think you you maybe would agree that we're in a loneliness pandemic right now. Like, we have more rampant loneliness around the world than we've ever had before. And if you look at how this has evolved, shit, I didn't know it was coffee. Thanks, man. Gotcha. So if you look.

• 36:18Joe Rogan?

  Cheers, sir.

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Thank you, man.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  If you look at this loneliness and people are you could stand in a room full of people and still feel lonely. For so many people, the majority of the world right now.

• 36:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Is in this loneliness pandemic. So what's really going on, and this is my opinion, feel free to toss it, but we're in a in a place that's becoming more and more performative on a daily basis. Just fake, artificial, let me say what people want to hear, let me act how people want to how I want to be perceived.

• 36:53Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  And which means that if I'm even.

• 36:59Speaker 03

  If I'm a little bit performative, no matter who it is, my best friends, they put my hand, they put their hand on my back, say, Chase, you're a great guy, you're a good person. But in the back of my mind, I know that I'm performing. I know for a fact that probably not even my spouse has ever seen me.

• 37:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  They can't like me. They can't love me because that's not me.

• 37:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  And I think this hyper-performance world of, I don't mean performance, I mean like, let me act out this thing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna act a certain way. And, because let's look at, if you look at our ancestry, I had to worry about, like, you and I, we're maybe eight, nine years apart, but when we were in elementary school or middle school, we did some stupid shit. We had to worry about 20 people making fun of us. And now we gotta worry about 20 million. And that is a, that is an existential difference between those things. So we get better at hiding shame and pretending like we don't have it. And then what if, now going back to separation, now this is what I call the, the disease

• 38:04Speaker 03

  of specialness, of I am special, which means I'm the only one here pretending and everybody else has got their shit figured out. And then that isolates you even further. And not realizing that everyone has this, everyone has this little crap going on. And like, the, the fear that people feel of like, if I just be real, then I'm gonna get made fun of, I'm gonna get rejected, I'm gonna be kicked out of the tribe. It's not real.

• 38:31Joe Rogan?

  It's not real, but it can be real depending. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the farmer's dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs and my dogs love it.

• 39:13Joe Rogan?

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• 39:58Joe Rogan?

  insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month.

• 40:42Joe Rogan?

  Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P, dot com. Depending on your circumstances. So if you are in a very enclosed ideological tribe and there's no...

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

  There's no tolerance for any deviation from whatever the narrative is.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:04Joe Rogan?

  You know, this is a real problem with social media. This is a real problem that it wasn't like that. I mean, I know I'm like one of those old people that's like, back and martyr. But when I was young, you were allowed to have different opinions. Like, it was normal. I had friends that were conservative, and I would make fun of them, and they would make fun of me. And it was normal, like, you kept those friends.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:30Joe Rogan?

  Because no one was telling you to get rid of those friends. There was no pressure to be a part of a group. There was no, there was no silence is violence bullshit. There was a bunch of people that thought differently, and you talked about stuff. And we weren't as informed, that's a fact. We didn't know as much about how the world works, that's a fact. But now that we do, one of the things that we should all be acutely aware of, with us spending so much time interacting with each other online, is that a lot of the people that you're interacting with are not real, and not a small number. If you are on X, it, you know, look, there was an FBI analyst that he, before Elon.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  What do you mean not real?

• 42:13Joe Rogan?

  They're bots.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Like, actual not human?

• 42:16Joe Rogan?

  AI bots.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:18Joe Rogan?

  AI bots is a big percentage, and then there's actual humans who work for organizations that push narratives. You can hire an organization to push a certain narrative. You can hire them to support you, or you can hire them to attack your enemies. You can hire companies that will artificially create a movement of people that agree that this person's a bad person, that this project's a bad project, that this is a good idea, that he's a good person, that he's a good, this is a good politician, whatever it is. You could, so it's, you're not dealing with genuine thought, you're dealing with bullshit. And here's where it gets really weird. I think it's natural.

• 43:01Joe Rogan?

  And I think everything is nature. And I think this idea that this artificial communication that we've developed through social media is what's really fucking everybody up, I don't think that's the case. I think this is a natural progression of nature. The idea that our stupid fucking creativity and intuition and technological ingenuity, it can bypass nature, I think is horseshit.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  It is nature.

• 43:24Joe Rogan?

  It is nature.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:25Joe Rogan?

  And I think nature is creating this convergence. It's creating this very bizarre convergence of humans and artificial intelligence through a bunch of ways that are unproductive and a bunch of ways that are productive, but all of it like gathering together in a device that's like almost impossible to resist. If there was anything else that you use six hours a day or eight hours, if you're a good person, if you're good with it, like a lot of kids are on seven, eight, nine hours a day. Like, if there's anything else like that, you would think that person's got a horrible addiction. But for us, we've accepted it as a normal part of society.

• 44:07Joe Rogan?

  And that, whatever that interaction with it that we have, that, that, that, that, that deep connection we have, is only going to get deeper. And it's ultimately going to lead to some sort of hive mind. And it'll probably not be a hive human mind only. I think it will be a, a human AI hive mind. And I think one of the things that's happening to us is there's this weird like movement to, this is a weird move to discredit traditional femininity and traditional masculinity.

• 44:48Joe Rogan?

  And there's this bizarre over-celebration of outliers, of weird gender people, of people that are confused with their gender. And I, I think that's because if you play that out, this is a new thing. Again, I'm an old man, but when I was a young guy, that would did not, there was cross-dressers, there was guys that got off on wearing women's clothes. Clothes, there was, there was, there was always stuff like that. There's always been people with gender dysphoria. But there was never like this. And this is also coming at a time where microplastics are disrupting our endocrine systems.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Big time.

• 45:21Joe Rogan?

  Big time. So testosterone levels are dropping. We're like, oh my god, it's a crisis. What do we do about it? It's natural. Our use of plastic is probably natural. It's probably all somehow or another connected to take us out of our territorial primate bodies and move us into some new stage of existence.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Like some post-biological.

• 45:45Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:46Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. I think it's inevitable. And I'm not fighting it.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Does Elon agree with that? Like, we're moving toward that direction?

• 45:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, he most certainly thinks that we are moving into a direction where we converge. And, um, I mean, he said about, this is what, I mean, the dude's literally cutting holes in people's heads and shoving fucking circuits in there. And doing a lot of wild shit with it. I mean, people are using their, their eyes like aim bots. And a paralyzed gentleman that we have had on the podcast was the first Neuralink patient.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  I watched that, yeah.

• 46:17Joe Rogan?

  He, he said it's like a cheat code. Like, because he, where he looks, that's where the cursor goes and he just shoots people. You know, like he's shooting people with his mind.

• 46:26Speaker 03

  Fortnite?

• 46:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  On a video game or something?

• 46:27Joe Rogan?

  Playing video games with his mind. And he's like, excellent at it. Well, you gotta think, well, eventually you'll be able to move your body that way. And then eventually you'll have all sorts of other tools that didn't exist before. And one of the things that Elon has famously said is, you're gonna be able to talk without words.

• 46:45Joe Rogan?

  That's the hive mind. We're moving towards that. And this gets us into all this weird UAP shit. Like, what are these aliens? What are these experiences that people are having? Like, is this all a mass hallucination? Is it us from the future? Is it us from the past? Is it another species that's far more advanced than us that's come down here to monitor us and shepherd us through our very difficult time? Um, whatever it is, they seem to be what we're going to be if we keep going in this direction. Our brains are far larger than monkeys.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:18Joe Rogan?

  Our bodies are far weaker, pound for pound, than any of the other primates. So what do they look like? They look like these fucking spindly things with no muscles and giant heads. And they, they communicate telepathically, universally, like everyone from all over the world, every planet, or every country, rather, that's experienced these creatures, they all say the same thing. They all say they communicate with them telepathically, which, that's where we're going.

• 47:40Speaker 03

  Which is exactly what you experience on DMT.

• 47:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  And like, you can get a, a, a test drive of, of what that's like.

• 47:48Joe Rogan?

  Do you know that the original, when, the, the original scientists, or I guess whether anthropologists, or what kind of people were studying ayahuasca when they first went down to the Amazon? They wanted to call harmine telepathine. They didn't know that it had already, because of the rules of scientific nomenclature, it would, it'd already been named. So they, they didn't know. So this substance that these people had created, one of the aspects of it, they wanted to talk, they wanted to talk to it as telepathine, that they want to refer to it that way. So they, that was what they were gonna call it scientifically.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 48:24Joe Rogan?

  Because they had experienced these telepathic moments while on it. But because it had already been named, they weren't allowed to rename it, so they just stuck with harmine. But harmine had a real chance of being called telepathine.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  That's beautiful.

• 48:37Joe Rogan?

  Wild.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  And it, it, it just seems like consciousness is coming to the forefront of every debate right now.

• 48:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 03

  The telepathy tapes shot out of, of a cannon, like, nobody's ever heard of that stuff, and I think you had the director, or something on the show. And it just seems like the level of certainty that some people have about consciousness is adorable.

• 49:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  Adorable.

• 49:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 03

  To me. It's like, we're these little hairless monkeys, and we're like, every generation is like, oh yeah, that, we didn't know a hundred years ago, but now we know. We know now.

• 49:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  It, it's just ridiculous.

• 49:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's, we, that's the ego, right?

• 49:22Speaker 03

  That's the certainty.

• 49:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  We need that certainty. And, I think- We're at a place where curiosity, maybe except for politics, curiosity isn't really dangerous anymore. It's like people got, are scared to be publicly curious, or to be, public question something. Like, why is this here, why is that there? Do you know who Ignaz Semmelweis was?

• 49:46Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  He was a doctor, back in the day. No idea what year it was, but it was very, very early days. He was the guy who said, hey, maybe in between these operating room patients, what if we wash this blood off of our hands?

• 50:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Before I go do this next operation? And he got laughed out of the room, and then eventually thrown into an insane asylum, where he died for questioning this thing. And it seems like so much of what's going on with psychedelics research, even though like, document after document is showing it's the most effective thing for PTSD and anxiety and depression and addiction and all this other stuff. And I'm not a champion researcher in any of this stuff, but it seems like, kind of coming out, people are getting the same treatment as this guy did, when they're coming out, even though like, it's been documented so well.

• 50:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  And it's still a Schedule I drug.

• 50:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think now that's changing, and I think there's an, I think one of the things that's changing it is the acceptance of it by the right. And one of, some of them at least, the old boomers, they don't want to let go. But the young guys, like especially special forces guys, SEALs, Rangers, those kind of guys, they come back, so many of their buddies have had experiences and then recognize when one of their friends is struggling, and take them to have these experiences, and that word's getting out. Sean Ryan's responsible for a lot of that, because he's talked really openly about it. And obviously, he has a huge platform. But Marcus Luttrell, you know, him talking about it, and then Rick Perry, the former

• 51:28Joe Rogan?

  governor of Texas, Republican governor of Texas, who hated marijuana, hated psychedelics, thought it was all just a bunch of hippie bullshit. Well, he had brain atrophy, natural age-related brain atrophy. And the doctor said, oh, it's just pretty normal, you know, standard, you're fine. Goes and does this Ibogaine session, comes back.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  Rick did it himself.

• 51:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, a couple. He's done a few. Goes and does this Ibogaine session, comes back, the doctor says, you felt like it's 25% approval, improvement, rather, in your brain atrophy. So then, six months later, he goes back again for another scan, his brain atrophy is gone. It's gone. He says he feels different, he thinks different, he feels better, like his mind works better. So it's not just an experience, Ibogaine in particular. It seems to be neuro-regenerative in a profound way.

• 52:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:20Joe Rogan?

  That if this was a drug that you could patent, pharmaceutical drug companies would be all over this shit.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it'd be that, it's proving to be one of the most effective drugs ever tested. If you're, if you're looking at like efficacy versus like a sample size, it's one of the most effective ever tested. Andy Stumpf and I just did a show about it, talking about this stuff, and he's brought a lot of awareness to this. And if, I think if we could get a little bit of awareness to it, I think we could cure a lot of this stuff, but I think the number one thing is like, is there a way that we can help to get this faster to people?

• 53:00Joe Rogan?

  They're working on it. Brian Hubbard and Rick Perry, I mean, Rick Perry's said openly that this is my life's mission now, you know?

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Really?

• 53:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, former governor, Republican governor of Texas.

• 53:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:12Joe Rogan?

  His life's mission is to promote psychedelics now.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  I'm so glad.

• 53:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I'm so glad. And this is another, Ibogaine is the best one to start out with, because Ibogaine has zero recreational use. It's zero. You, it's not fun. Nobody likes it. It's not a good time. You throw up, you shit yourself, you freak out for 24 hours, but when you come back, you're a different person. And if you're willing to do that, if you're willing to do that, you can change. You can, you could do a lot of fixing, all that's, and also...

• 53:45Joe Rogan?

  Maybe even more importantly, be aware of what these little traps, these little, these little deeply carved grooves that your consciousness seems to comfortably slip into over and over again, whether it's alcoholism or gambling or whatever it is. It seems to just shut those down.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:02Joe Rogan?

  In a very profound way that you can't get anywhere else.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's just, it can, I think it zooms you out to where you're like, oh shit, I thought all that was important. Like you're talking about zooming out on these galaxies and within galaxies and black holes and stuff, but it gives you that perspective of like, whoa. I, I thought I was really special. I thought I was super important.

• 54:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, that is one of the things that most psychedelics do is they remove that idea completely. They go, this is, you've got to get rid of this. This is tripping you up. You're carrying this fucking weight around everywhere and it's really stopping your progress.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's, it's kind of like, uh, it's like you're in a video game and then somebody, uh, comes back and be like, hey, man. Uh, here's the way that, here's the shit you need to actually worry about. You don't need to do all this other stuff.

• 54:51Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, like a little helper guy in the video game.

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:55Joe Rogan?

  Guys, gotta come with me. This is the wrong room.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:59Joe Rogan?

  They're coming. We gotta get out of this room.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  Don't do that quest.

• 55:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  That's, that's what it is. And I mean, I'm a, I'm a hypnosis, uh, guy. I studied all the brainwashing interrogation, uh, kind of stuff. It, it, this is the fastest way, I think, and I've studied every possible way to change human behavior that, that probably has ever been researched. And this is bar none, the fastest. And I think the, the, one of the reasons that it helps people so much, and I, I don't want to, this is going to turn into a two hour psychedelics discussion, but it's your show.

• 55:34Joe Rogan?

  I don't care.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  Okay. I think it's because perspective shifting is what happens like if you're looking at life and you're you have this little GoPro is your consciousness and you're looking at this level it just snatches that thing up and zooms it out and puts it in another location where you're like oh my god I had no idea it was like this

• 55:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  And it seems to be that that perspective just the shift in perspective seems to be the number one thing that psychedelics produce therapeutically and that's the thing that like cognitive behavioral therapy is is trying to get done over the course of like 10 or 12 years or you know however long it takes but it it just seems like it does it so fast in a profound way and the stuff is non addictive non toxic you're not gonna it's not a street drug you're not gonna see people out there on the street selling like DMT capsules and and DMT I would say similar to ibogaine is not recreational.

• 56:36Joe Rogan?

  I think it is.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  You think DMT is recreational?

• 56:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think there's a lot of people that recreationally do it. I think that would be your thought you know oh just do this and have fun and then once you do it it's no longer recreational.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Have you heard?

• 56:51Joe Rogan?

  It's too profound to be just purely recreational.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, you've heard of people getting banned?

• 56:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes, I have.

• 56:59Speaker 03

  Jamie and I were just talking about this.

• 57:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I knew a guy who's a tattoo artist who got banned.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  And you can keep taking DMT like you can go take 10 hits on a DMT vape pen or something and you're not going anywhere.

• 57:13Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that nuts?

• 57:14Speaker 03

  It's insane.

• 57:15Joe Rogan?

  It's like they just decide.

• 57:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:17Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, you're doing this for the wrong reasons.

• 57:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. I listened to one guy describe it and he's like it's basically like you're knocking on the door of a nightclub and like the little thing opens up it's like no you're not coming in.

• 57:31Joe Rogan?

  You gotta think, like, what are they doing wrong?

• 57:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think maybe going in with ego seems to be one of the things I see that's in common. And people trying, just treating it like a little recreational thing.

• 57:42Joe Rogan?

  The ego thing is a problem even within psychedelics, because there's sort of a carve out that happens, which I always refer to as spiritual narcissism. There's a bunch of people that do it, that somehow or another want to be a guru or a leader, and to show you that they're somehow or another better, because they have had these experiences, they know more, and they pretend they know more. They pretend they know more, and then they get a whole bunch of people that are, you know, very suggestible. And those people sort of listen to them, and then that's how you start a cult. And this, there's something to that. There's a specific type of narcissism that occurs from regular psychedelic use, when people want to, like, lead groups of people.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think if you go into a journey or two with no ego, do you know what you learn? Less. Like, you're less certain every time.

• 58:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  About the world.

• 58:36Joe Rogan?

  From the moment you get in there, you're like, oh, how is this real? How, how, how is this available 15 seconds away from normal reality?

• 58:44Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. And it, I, I definitely think that we're moving forward. If we move forward with psychedelics, our species is gonna move forward.

• 58:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. And I think, I, I think all the time, what would have happened if that sweeping psychedelics act, the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, hadn't been enacted? If this stuff had been available to people for the last, you know, 56 years, what would that be like?

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, what would the 94 Ford Taurus actually look like?

• 59:22Joe Rogan?

  It looked like a sixty-nine Mustang.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:26Joe Rogan?

  Cause those are the people that were doing drugs.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 59:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there's no, there's no other explanation in my mind why cars started looking like shit.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  And music.

• 59:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  Went downhill.

• 59:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, the change.

• 59:38Speaker 03

  We had some good music.

• 59:39Joe Rogan?

  They're like Depeche Mode. Cause there's a bunch of people that still did drugs. But there's, there was a giant change between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty with automobiles, with music, with everything. And I think a large part of that, if you're really being honest, a large part of that is psychedelics.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you look, look, have you ever gone into a huge mosque and looked up at the ceiling?

• 1:00:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's incredible.

• 1:00:02Speaker 03

  It looks like exactly like what you see on all this stuff.

• 1:00:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  I'll, I'll go no further on that topic, but um, and just all the ancient artwork. It's very, so psychedelic and beautiful. It's like they got written out of history somehow. And I think there's a difference between drugs and medicine.

• 1:00:23Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  Can we take a pee break?

• 1:00:24Joe Rogan?

  Sure, sure. Go ahead, take a pee break. I'm good, but I'll hold.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  I think it's the coffee.

• 1:00:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer soccer is here and the watch parties will be going back to back to back. But don't worry, Uber Eats has your game day essentials covered with thirty percent off all orders from Aldi, Kroger, and Dollar General. All the snacks and groceries to keep your crowd happy, delivered straight to your door, like chips, dips, wings, guac, and fresh ingredients for the perfect game day spread. Order in so you can stay locked in on the game, all the hosting, none of the hassle. Order now for thirty percent off your game day snacks and grocery order only on Uber Eats for a limited time.

• 1:01:12Joe Rogan?

  Offer eligible for thirty percent off entire order. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Offer valid through July fifth. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. Pull it up, Jamie. Yeah, I don't know. So we're looking at, uh, Jamie pulled up a bunch of photos of inside of mosques. And that, that in particular, that is absolutely a DMT experience.

• 1:01:37Joe Rogan?

  So here's the question.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  Like, I feel like I've been to that.

• 1:01:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, how about this one? I mean, that looks super DMT.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  I've spent time there. Not in that mosque, but like in that dimension.

• 1:01:49Joe Rogan?

  What is that, uh, one Jamie to the upper left? You just, you, you scroll up, up left, upper left corner, that, yeah, look at that.

• 1:01:55Speaker 04

  I just doesn't.

• 1:01:56Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck is that?

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Is that 3D?

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:01:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you know what that is, dude? I think that's Alex Gray's place.

• 1:02:04Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 1:02:04Speaker 04

  It says it's in Iran.

• 1:02:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know what Alex Gray's doing? Do you know Alex Gray, the visionary artist?

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Joe Rogan?

  So his chapel of sacred mirrors, this, uh, he has a real church that they built based on his artwork.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:02:19Joe Rogan?

  It's incredible.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Non-denominational.

• 1:02:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's just like.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Like a Rothko, like the Rothko chapel.

• 1:02:24Joe Rogan?

  You know, he's one of those guys, you know what I was talking about with spiritual narcissism, running a group? He's the, he's the opposite of that.

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Joe Rogan?

  Like, he's pure. And his place, like, this is his artwork, but this is his place. And if you look at the outside of it, that's the outside of the place.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  That is so cool.

• 1:02:41Joe Rogan?

  So the outside of the place is basically like 3D-printed artwork of his that they've constructed into a building. I don't even know how he did it. It must have cost a fuckload of money, a bunch of people donated. But the inside of his, I think that is, so he used to have a place in New York City that was like a gallery? That was the chapel of sacred mirrors?

• 1:03:03Joe Rogan?

  So where's that?

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  His daughter does a lot of painting there.

• 1:03:06Joe Rogan?

  So that is it. That's on the Hudson, yeah, in Hudson Valley. I mean, he's incredible, incredible artist, and his ability to capture that experience, like that one, if you go back, oh, actually, scroll down to the lower left, right there, the Egyptian-looking one, lower left, right there, bam. I've seen that, dude.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:27Joe Rogan?

  I've 100% seen that. I've seen that too, but go back to the other one that we were just looking at. No, that's not the same. That's the one I've seen. I've literally seen that. I've seen that those and they move and change and morph.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Joe Rogan?

  He's just able to nail it.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  I don't know how he does that.

• 1:03:46Joe Rogan?

  He's incredible.

• 1:03:47Speaker 03

  Uh, great. One, he's a good artist, but two, being able to bring that back with coherence.

• 1:03:52Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  To where you can kinda show someone.

• 1:03:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  What it's like. I remember seeing that face and I was like in, in the DMT space. I was like, is that me? And right when I said that, the mouth moved exactly like my mouth. And I was like, that is me.

• 1:04:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're it and it's you and you're everyone.

• 1:04:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Joe Rogan?

  You're everyone and it's everyone. Yeah. The, the, it's the weird thing with the mosques. If you go back to some of those images, please, of the mosques, the, the first one that you pulled up, the ceiling. What, what were they doing? Not that one. Um, the, the original one that you pulled up, that one. Yeah. Like, that's very, very DMT. So like, what were they doing that they saw this? And is that, was that a part of their religion at one point in time? And has that been forgotten? Like, what is it? Like, why, why did that exist? Go back to the one, the first one, please.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  It had to be.

• 1:04:47Joe Rogan?

  That one.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  This color seems a little sus.

• 1:04:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really? You think it's AI?

• 1:04:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. I just, I'm just seeing so much AI stuff from last year.

• 1:04:55Joe Rogan?

  Right. Could be.

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

  Like the rest of them.

• 1:04:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, go to that, that website.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  Rather. I mean, the photo just looks a little.

• 1:05:01Joe Rogan?

  I see. Go to that website where it says fifty mesmerizing mosques.

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. If it says where it is, then I totally, yeah, it says where it is.

• 1:05:10Joe Rogan?

  I've seen Iran. We probably blew that up already.

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  God, I hope not.

• 1:05:15Joe Rogan?

  I hope not, too.

• 1:05:18Joe Rogan?

  I mean, didn't Israel blow up a bunch of like ancient Christian places in Lebanon? Believe they did.

• 1:05:25Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:05:26Speaker 04

  Same place.

• 1:05:27Joe Rogan?

  This is the same place? So that's a, whatever that place is.

• 1:05:29Speaker 04

  Here I'll move.

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Is that the same place? Yeah, that is a very psychedelic place. Okay, look at that one. That's nuts.

• 1:05:36Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:05:37Joe Rogan?

  What were they doing?

• 1:05:38Speaker 03

  Is that 3D?

• 1:05:39Speaker 04

  Well, it's like, yeah, it's like a 3D photo, so it's manipulated in a weird way.

• 1:05:43Speaker 03

  Okay, okay, so that's like a fish eye.

• 1:05:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, but either way, just the designs themselves are the actual design. So like, what were they doing that they wanted that to be represented? And is that missing? Cause there's a great book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. Have you ever read that? The John Marco Allegro book?

• 1:06:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Joe Rogan?

  So John Marco Allegro, who's an ordained minister, but he was agnostic. And he was a guy that studied theology and his conclusion after a year, I mean, even being an ordained minister, his conclusion was that like, it's probably not, any one religion doesn't have it right.

• 1:06:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Joe Rogan?

  And so he was one of the people that was brought on to decipher the Dead Sea Scrolls. He deciphers it for 14 years, he works on it, and he writes this book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, where he believes that the entire story of Christianity is connected to the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms and fertility cults.

• 1:06:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Have you seen like, Jamie, am I allowed to ask Jamie to pull something?

• 1:06:42Joe Rogan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  That, like, one of the original paintings of Jesus was him with a bunch of mushrooms.

• 1:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  And, and.

• 1:06:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, the Adam and Eve, the fresco in France. So that Adam and Eve fresco, uh, that's painted on this, oh God, I wanna say it's at least a thousand years old. It's painted on this wall in France is Adam and Eve and the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Life is mushrooms.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Speaker 03

  It's mu, it's the Tree of Knowledge.

• 1:07:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:07:11Speaker 03

  The Fruit of Knowledge.

• 1:07:12Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right, it's not the Tree of Life, it's the Fruit of Knowledge. But this, this story of it, like, that, like, what is the actual reference to why, in the Bible, I don't wanna paraphrase it, as to why God told them not to eat from the fruit of that tree? Pull, put that into perplexity. What did God say to Adam? By the way, everybody blaming Eve? Adam was the only one to talk to God. We don't even know if Adam told Eve. He might have forgot to tell her and then blamed the whole human race suffering forever.

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 1:07:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I read that, read that over and over again. I'm like, where does it say that Adam told Eve? It doesn't, anywhere. "God told Adam, 'Eat from any tree in the garden, except for the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and that if he ate from it, he would surely die. You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it, you will certainly die."

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  And what does that mean? Right. You will die of what? Ego death? Because if that's what it is.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Joe Rogan?

  And then there's the weird thing is that the whole connection between the Amanita muscaria and the psychedelic book, or rather, the sacred mushroom in the cross book, is that the Amanita muscaria is a red mushroom that looks like an apple. And in fact, the term, like, there's like confusion as to whether or not the term "apple" is actually meaning a red thing. And then it might not actually be an apple, but it might actually be, the original version of it might have been the Amanita. And then you have to think, how many thousands of years has this been around? That it took, how many different people have translated it? How many different people have passed on the story?

• 1:09:08Joe Rogan?

  Like, what was the source? What was the original story?

• 1:09:11Speaker 03

  And why delete it?

• 1:09:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  How does this get deleted so, like, pervasively?

• 1:09:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  Around the whole world? And have you heard the Christmas traditions as well?

• 1:09:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, Santa Claus is a mushroom.

• 1:09:23Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh.

• 1:09:26Joe Rogan?

  And it's the same mushroom, the Amanita muscaria. The weird thing about the Amanita muscaria is it doesn't, like, not a lot of people have had psychedelic experiences on it. It's a very weird mushroom.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  You think it evolved, maybe, over time?

• 1:09:39Joe Rogan?

  It very well could have. McKenna had some thoughts on it. He said that it could be seasonal, it could be location, it could be like where it is, it could be genetic variations, it could be very, this could be a bunch of different factors.

• 1:09:52Speaker 03

  And if you consume it by way of reindeer piss.

• 1:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, not only that, people drink their piss when they consume it, and it gives them like the second dose, the second burst. So apparently, the psychedelic compounds come through the urine, and if you drink it, you just get a full, straight blast.

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Joe Rogan?

  And reindeer have been known to like knock shamans out of the way to drink their piss. Because the reindeer are addicted to this mushroom.

• 1:10:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Joe Rogan?

  Which is why they fly in the Santa Claus story.

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I heard the story, these shamans would go around pulled by dog sleds or something.

• 1:10:30Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  And the snow was so high that they would drop the stuff down the chimney to these people. And it was fresh mushrooms or fresh amanita or something. And in order to dry it out, you'd have to hang it by the fire.

• 1:10:43Joe Rogan?

  Right. And you hang it over the trees too. That people would put it on trees.

• 1:10:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  That's where they're decorating the Christmas tree is. Also, those mushrooms, the amanita mouskara has a Michael Riesel relationship with coniferous trees.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  I didn't know this.

• 1:10:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So that's where they grow. They grow underneath the trees, just like the brightly packaged presents that are underneath the trees on Christmas.

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  This story is.

• 1:11:08Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy story. It's like, what did we, what did we forget?

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Joe Rogan?

  How much did we forget?

• 1:11:14Speaker 03

  What's been revised?

• 1:11:15Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, just think about what we're just talking about inside of our generation. So the 1970 Controlled Substances Act. Now, that is a, that's a government that's restricting its citizens and trying to control its citizens. And one of the ways it does it is limit their psychedelic experiences.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Joe Rogan?

  That's not the only time that's happened, right? That's the Illucenean Mysteries. That's from Brian Murrescu's book. Um, The Immortality Key. Like, this, this is what they did back then. They banned these rituals. Why? Cause it's very difficult to control people when you realize that we're all one.

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's almost impossible. It doesn't work. They don't want to listen. You don't want to do it. You know, you start getting your lawmakers and your military people start doing it. Well, then war becomes impossible.

• 1:12:01Speaker 03

  Absolutely impossible at that point. Because that's me. I'm, I'm hurting myself.

• 1:12:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:06Speaker 03

  Doing all of that.

• 1:12:07Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  Man, it's insane.

• 1:12:10Joe Rogan?

  It is insane.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  It, it, I wanna, I wish there was like on a Google Doc how you can look at revision history. I wish there was something like that for our race, our species.

• 1:12:19Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right.

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  Just so much has been changed and modified and, and we have historians, but we don't, they're, they're studying something that's been permitted and something that's been officially released and. This is more certainty. It's just more certainty like, oh, oh, that reindeer story. That's bullshit because I got this book from.

• 1:12:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they don't know it's bullshit.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Liechtenstein or, you know, whatever from this historian.

• 1:12:45Joe Rogan?

  Let's plead to authority that you have the answers. Bitch, you don't have the answers.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Joe Rogan?

  You definitely don't. You can't. It's not possible. You can't have those answers.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:56Speaker 03

  And we're in an age where this is proving to help with so many other things. And it's not just depression, but it's like Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, myasthenia gravis, multiple sclerosis, autism, it's helping with.

• 1:13:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Did you see that woman that had dementia that took five grams of mushrooms and slept for like 19 hours and woke up and then she could talk?

• 1:13:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:13:23Joe Rogan?

  You didn't see that story?

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:13:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a recent story. There was a woman, she was nonverbal, she couldn't communicate, she couldn't dress herself, couldn't walk, couldn't do anything. Took five grams of mushrooms, slept for 19 hours, came back, started communicating, looked at people in the eye, was able to change herself, was able to walk around.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  How beautiful.

• 1:13:41Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. And then with subsequent doses, her condition improved even more. Yeah.

• 1:13:46Speaker 03

  And you had, I think it was Paul Stamets on, and he helped his mother through cancer, I think, like stage three cancer with turkey tail or something. I can't remember what it was.

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a bunch of mushrooms that help with inflammation. There's a bunch of mushrooms that help with cognitive function. You know, lion's mane is famous for that.

• 1:14:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's, there's some weird relationship that we have with fungus. And one of the interesting things about fungus, we think of it as like a plant, but it's not. It breathes air. Breathes air like people do. It's a weird thing. And it also can survive in a vacuum. It can survive in the vacuum of space. Yeah. Which is the panspermia notion that mushroom spores were.

• 1:14:32Joe Rogan?

  Came here riding on an asteroid slammed into the earth and it might be one of the reasons why we're people in the first place. That's McKenna's idea.

• 1:14:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, of how we like separated from our.

• 1:14:44Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:25Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:08Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:48Speaker 03

  For ancestral, like Cro-Magnon roots.

• 1:16:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this whole idea that people were created by aliens. Yeah, maybe. Maybe those aliens are mushrooms. I mean, or maybe mushrooms is the way that aliens created people.

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:04Joe Rogan?

  You know, it might be just how you add a little bit of fertilizer to tomato plants to make them awesome.

• 1:17:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's just every generation, like this generation says, oh, we're in this computer simulation right now. But you know, during the Industrial Revolution, the universe was a machine.

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:23Speaker 03

  And we started doing electricity and the universe was energy and vibration.

• 1:17:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:28Speaker 03

  And now we invent computers and all of a sudden the universe is a computer. It's just every iteration. And so I tend to think that any theory that assumes humans are super special, I'm a little skeptical.

• 1:17:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 03

  Because it assumes that A, like these ancient, like way up high beings have like a MacBook that they're trying to run this shit on.

• 1:17:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:53Speaker 03

  And they're like, well, the hard drive would need to be the size of the solar system. Like just assuming that they have the same shit that we do.

• 1:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:00Speaker 03

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:18:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's a funny comparison. They used to think the universe was a machine. It's apt. So dead on. It's, we always want to try to figure it out. I think it's way more complicated. And I think the more we figure it out, the more we realize it's way more complicated. And it is all connected. Like people are super special. We really are, but so is everything else.

• 1:18:24Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:18:25Joe Rogan?

  Everything's super special.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:27Joe Rogan?

  And everything is weirdly connected.

• 1:18:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. And even if you look at regular ass science, just basic ass science, and you look at an Alan Watts quote of like, we are the universe experiencing itself, that's just regular science. If we are the Big Bang, then we are the universe and we are experiencing it itself. And you don't need to do any stretches of imagination for that to be true.

• 1:18:51Joe Rogan?

  And Roger Penrose doesn't even think the Big Bang is the start of the universe. He thinks it's a series of Big Bangs.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he thinks it's like it's never ending cycle.

• 1:19:01Speaker 03

  Did you have him on?

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a long time ago.

• 1:19:03Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:19:03Joe Rogan?

  What year we have Roger Penrose on?

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  Isn't it Sir Penrose now?

• 1:19:07Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:19:08Speaker 03

  Didn't he get knighted?

• 1:19:09Joe Rogan?

  I'm American, though.

• 1:19:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:11Joe Rogan?

  I tend to shy away from those foolish knight. I mean, that's another thing. Oh, he's a knight. That's a king. Oh.

• 1:19:21Speaker 03

  You know, did I? I don't know if we talked about last time. Have I told you that, like, I figured out a way to edit memory?

• 1:19:30Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  Like, you can do it with hypnosis.

• 1:19:33Joe Rogan?

  So I know that you can introduce false memories into people's heads.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:37Joe Rogan?

  And I know that people create their own false memories.

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Joe Rogan?

  So you found a way to do that different than that?

• 1:19:44Speaker 03

  Yes. And I make videos similar to this on my YouTube channel. But I wanted to walk you through this process because I think you would love it.

• 1:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:19:56Speaker 03

  So if I want somebody to be able to edit a memory, I need to make them good at that skill first. So, and we already edit memories. Every time we touch a memory, like, if I think back to my wedding right now, I'll edit something. And I'll do it unknowingly.

• 1:20:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:13Speaker 03

  So if our brain is already an expert at making these changes, and then, like, before I stopped thinking about that wedding, my brain automatically clicks File, Save, right? And then, so the next time I look back on it, the memory is going to be there, but I won't see it as an edit. I'll just see it as that's the memory, no matter how many times I change it. Does that make sense?

• 1:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:20:36Speaker 03

  Okay. So first, we need to get them to start doing some of that stuff consciously. So if you take somebody back to, let's say, a childhood bedroom when they're seven. Okay. And you do it very vividly with hypnosis. So like you're going in their file cabinet. You let them explore the bedroom, the details, all this kind of stuff. You make it extremely vivid and coherent. And then you have them pick up like a pencil, a really sharp, brand-new pencil, maybe from their pencil box from school or something. And they go over by the light switch in the bedroom and just make one dot on a wall.

• 1:21:17Speaker 03

  And I figured this out talking to game developers. And I was talking to game developers about how people figure out ways to exit the map, to exit the playable area of the game. Because it kind of feels like that's what psychedelics do. It's like it lets us kind of exit this little playable map temporarily. So one of these game developers said, oh, you just, if you can get somebody to modify one pixel, then they can modify the entire map. So if one pixel is glitching, then we can glitch, you can glitch all kinds of stuff. So I thought, maybe we can do that in humans. So I've done this hundreds of times. So you just make a mark on the wall with a pencil, and then you kind of fast-forward their life.

• 1:22:00Speaker 03

  So like you bring them to like, say they were six, now we're going to bring them back into the room when they're eight. The bed sheets are different, maybe the wall color changed, something like that. But the one thing they can do is walk over there to the light switch and see that that tiny little dot is still there. So something, and now you're starting to see that there's permanence through time. Makes sense so far?

• 1:22:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Speaker 03

  So if we can get them to do that like 50 times, tiny change.

• 1:22:28Joe Rogan?

  You doing it through hypnosis?

• 1:22:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:29Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  I mean, hypnosis is such a loaded, crazy word. They're relaxed, they feel safe, and their brain is in theta brainwave state most of the time, which is around 7 Hz.

• 1:22:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've been hypnotized, and I thought it was going to be like, I didn't know what was going on, I was in another world. No, it's a very odd state of mind.

• 1:22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's kind of like guided meditation or...

• 1:22:52Joe Rogan?

  But you feel very conscious. It's not, and I remembered it, it wasn't, didn't wake up my pants off, it was pretty normal.

• 1:23:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Joe Rogan?

  Didn't become a Manchurian candidate.

• 1:23:03Speaker 03

  As far as you know.

• 1:23:04Joe Rogan?

  As far as I know, right?

• 1:23:07Speaker 03

  So if you can do this 15, 20, 30 times of one pixel at a time and show that it's permanent through time, then you can go back to other events and instead of editing the memory itself, you teach them how to shift perspectives. So you now you take them through 30 more events really quick, a true events, a birthday party, a dinner, adult life, children, doesn't matter. And now, like, let's say I'm at a dinner party, can I jump from one body to another and experience the event through that lens? So now, so first we make them an expert at editing memory and seeing permanence in time. Second is perspective shifting in real memory. So I can jump across the table, I can be at my own wedding and maybe be somebody in the front row and like just shift their perspective

• 1:23:48Speaker 03

  in memory. The final layer is exactly what psychedelics do. So the final layer is go back to that event when you got kicked in the nuts and everybody laughed at you in elementary school or whatever. And you can reprocess that memory in a very short amount of time as an adult, with the perspective of an adult.

• 1:24:10Joe Rogan?

  So meaning like, so if you had a traumatic event in high school where somebody beat you up in front of everybody and everybody mocked you and it just like destroyed your year and destroyed your confidence, you can go back and shift this person's experience?

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. And instead of modify the memory, like, no, that never happened. The memory stays, the perspective changes. So now, now you show permanence over time. So that has downstream effects for all kinds of stuff later in life. So this is when a script got written of, I've got to be tough, I've got to be loud or somebody's going to hurt me or, you know what I mean? Like one of these little childhood scripts. So you get the downstream effects. So you can go in there and there's probably, you could probably edit memories. I've always been nervous to modify stuff that's way more than like a pixel or something insignificant. But the memory stays the same, the perspective is what changes and you can

• 1:25:03Speaker 03

  show that it's got a demonstrable effect downstream of that. Their whole life can be different after that day. And it's just like a mushroom. That's exactly what psychedelics do. It's this massive perspective shift on memory.

• 1:25:18Joe Rogan?

  And so is this something that you're actively doing?

• 1:25:23Speaker 03

  With clients, I'll do this on occasion, but now.

• 1:25:26Joe Rogan?

  Is anybody else doing it?

• 1:25:28Speaker 03

  Maybe a few, there's probably a few people doing it.

• 1:25:31Joe Rogan?

  And is there any like, times where you guys get together and discuss techniques and what's effective and what's not effective and?

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  There should be. Uh, we don't.

• 1:25:40Joe Rogan?

  Right, because it seems like this is, it's kind of a big deal and it seems like someone could fuck it up. Like, it, it has the potential for delusional perspective shifting, there's.

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, I mean, you've got to be responsible about it. But nowadays, I think that, that psychedelics can achieve a lot of that without having to go through some, like, I need you to go back to the original event. And like, having me vocally take you back there using this archaic, stupid ass language. Uh, that can't even describe a psychedelic experience with this language.

• 1:26:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:14Speaker 03

  This is what I was doing mostly before psychedelics. And you know how I got into psychedelics was, uh, the Spirit Molecule movie that you've, you did the voiceover for it. And that was what kind of introduced me to the entire, the field of everything where I thought, wow, this. It, it just doesn't seem like a recreational drug. And that was the big shift was watching that documentary for me.

• 1:26:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, my big shift was reading Rick Strassman's book.

• 1:26:40Speaker 03

  I still haven't read it, I need to.

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, um, he was the first guy to get FDA approval to do psychedelic studies. And the way he did it was very clever. He did it to prove that these are damaging and dangerous. That's how he framed it.

• 1:26:57Speaker 03

  That's so brilliant.

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  He's a very smart guy. I mean, you're talking about a guy who taught himself ancient Hebrew.

• 1:27:04Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:27:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, over sixteen years, taught himself to read and speak ancient Hebrew. So that he could really read the Bible in its original form.

• 1:27:14Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:27:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He's fascinated by prophecy and ancient religious stories and, you know, he, like a lot of people that have had DMT experiences, you, um, once you do, you look at those old stories and you go, okay, what, what are these stories really? What was the original, what was the original event? Like, it's so hard when you're, you're like Moses in the burning bush. Well, there's scholars in Israel that think that burning bush was the acacia tree, that the acacia tree is rich in DMT, and that might be what it represents. This experience of meeting God through a burning bush, is he smoked DMT?

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Joe Rogan?

  Which, for anybody who's done DMT, they go, oh, that makes sense.

• 1:28:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:03Joe Rogan?

  I mean, these scholars, I don't think these scholars are freaks, I don't think they're psychedelic heads. I think they're just religious scholars that are trying to like, figure out, like, what was the origin of that story?

• 1:28:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. I've, I've never heard of it.

• 1:28:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:15Speaker 03

  Acacia.

• 1:28:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, acacia tree, very rich in DMT, but a man, a phalaris grass, very rich in DMT.

• 1:28:22Speaker 03

  Mimosa.

• 1:28:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And for people that don't know, the, the reason why, well, DMT exists in probably thousands of different plants, but you can eat those plants and not experience DMT because of monoamine oxidase. So mono, MAO is what your gut makes to break this stuff down, so it doesn't become psychoactive. But when you take an MAO inhibitor and the psychedelic, then you get ayahuasca. That's what ayahuasca is. That's why it's an orally active version of DMT.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. Which methylene blue is in MAOI.

• 1:28:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:28:58Speaker 03

  It's a pretty light, it's a pretty light form of it. But if you're on methylene blue and you do psychedelics, it's gonna deepen.

• 1:29:05Joe Rogan?

  I can imagine. A lot of people are very hesitant about methylene blue. They don't like the idea of it. They think it's very dangerous, or potentially dangerous that we don't know enough about it.

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  We've been researching it since 1890 something, and it's in every emergency room.

• 1:29:19Joe Rogan?

  Is it really?

• 1:29:19Speaker 03

  Every emergency room.

• 1:29:20Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever heard of anybody having bad experiences with methylene blue or side effects, or?

• 1:29:25Speaker 03

  There are some contraindications. So people that are on a high dose SSRIs.

• 1:29:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  Um, and if you're taking an MAOI, you can't eat aged cheese and wine because of this chemical called tyrosine that's in there.

• 1:29:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, aged cheese?

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Joe Rogan?

  So something about the fungus?

• 1:29:44Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:29:44Joe Rogan?

  The mold?

• 1:29:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe there's red wine and aged cheese both have tyrosine, uh, which when you mix tyrosine with an MAOI, it could, can cause a hypertensive crisis.

• 1:29:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:29:55Speaker 03

  So like a super blood pressure issue. But I, I haven't heard anybody having a, a bad time with it, but you gotta stick to the right dose. Talk to, obviously you gotta talk to a doctor about it.

• 1:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, let's ask AI. Um, put that into AI, put that into perplexity. See what is the negative consequences of taking methylene blue? Maybe there's something that we don't know. Um, Huberman's a little bit hesitant about it. You know?

• 1:30:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:26Joe Rogan?

  You see, and I've talked to other people that say it seems like for a certain metabolic conditions, it's very beneficial, but for people that have a normal metabolic, like you, you, your whole system is working fine and perfect. It might not, not just not be necessary, but might cause harm. But they were very vague about what that harm would be.

• 1:30:45Speaker 03

  I don't think it's for everybody. It may not be for everybody. Uh, it def, it saves my life, uh, for sure. Uh, which I mean, I could stop taking it today and I'll have a seizure within 48 hours.

• 1:30:56Joe Rogan?

  That's wild.

• 1:30:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:58Joe Rogan?

  You said you had a seizure at last time after you visited here?

• 1:31:01Speaker 03

  The night before I came on the show.

• 1:31:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Okay, methylene blue, this is our AI sponsor perplexity. Methylene blue can cause a range of side effects from mild nuisance symptoms to rare, but life threatening reactions, especially at higher doses or when combined with certain medications. Um, common short-term side effects, headaches, dizziness, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Nothing, don't be a pussy.

• 1:31:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, my toilets are actually stained.

• 1:31:26Joe Rogan?

  From pee?

• 1:31:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it does make your pee blue. Sweating, feeling hot or cold, muscle twitches, harmless, blue-green discoloration of urine, sometimes stool or skin. Serious risk serotonin syndrome when combined with antidepressants, just like you were just saying, or other serotonin genetic drugs, SSRIs, SNRIs, uh, MAOIs, some opioids, St. John's Wort.

• 1:31:50Speaker 03

  G6 PD is a big contraindication there. So methylene blues in ERs because of meth hemoglobinemia, uh, which is like when you, your hemoglobin can't bind to oxygen really well.

• 1:32:02Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:03Speaker 03

  And it's also the, the only cure for cyanide poisoning is methylene blue.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:32:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  Cyanide?

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  It will stop cyanide in its tracks.

• 1:32:13Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  It probably says that on, or...

• 1:32:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, interesting. Safety for chronic low dose experimenting for anti-aging or cognition is not well established and is not currently recommended without medical supervision.

• 1:32:31Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. I know a lot of people that take it. I know a lot of people that take it.

• 1:32:36Speaker 03

  I know Bobby. Bobby takes it.

• 1:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, yeah. He's one of them. A lot of people that take it that say it improves cognitive function. It's supposed to, um, also, when you take it with red light therapy, it's supposed to greatly increase the effectiveness.

• 1:32:53Speaker 03

  Unbelievably so, yeah.

• 1:32:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah? Really?

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  I mean, number, if you want to go into it for just a minute here.

• 1:32:58Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:32:59Speaker 03

  Methylene blue has what's called a neuronal affinity. So, they used to, like, you stick it on a microscope slide with a brain cell. It sucks into the neuron, uh, like automatically. And it does the same thing in your body. So if I know that I'm, I'm basically dying all of my neurons blue, and I'm not just talking about in your head. Like, we have neurons everywhere, our whole body. So if I'm dying a lot of my neurons blue, and I see something that's blue, methylene blue is blue because it reflects blue light, which also means that it absorbs almost all red.

• 1:33:36Speaker 03

  So if my neurons are dyed blue, and then I go into near infrared and infrared light, uh, I know that I'm getting way more absorption in there.

• 1:33:45Joe Rogan?

  Let's fucking go. That makes sense.

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  In the third stage of cellular breathing, uh, we produce this chemical called cytochrome c auxites. And cytochrome is like cell color, cytochroma, where our cells can start running, essentially running on photons, which is beautiful and amazing. And if you get a good red light system, um, and I have no plug, um, but you get a good red light system, it'll penetrate through the skull, up to like four inches through your skull. In good systems.

• 1:34:17Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:34:19Speaker 03

  Even lasers and they make laser beds and all this other stuff.

• 1:34:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I have a one of those red light bed that looks like a tanning bed. I bought it up from Gary Breckus Company. It's very expensive, but it's pretty profound. Um, I don't need uh reading glasses anymore. I used to have these fucking things everywhere, all over my house. I used to need them to read my phone if I wanted to read an email. I don't need them anymore.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:34:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's nuts. I don't bring them with me anymore. I if I would go on the road before and I had to do a trip for the UFC or whatever and I didn't have my reading glasses, I'm like, fuck, now I gotta make everything big. I can't read anything. Not anymore. No, my my vision got better from red light therapy.

• 1:34:59Speaker 03

  I don't doubt it.

• 1:34:59Joe Rogan?

  For sure. I also don't close my eyes. I keep my eyes wide open.

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  Same.

• 1:35:04Joe Rogan?

  It's like, oh, you need goggles. You like like you're fucking staring at the um,

• 1:35:10Joe Rogan?

  some nuclear bomb or something.

• 1:35:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:12Joe Rogan?

  It's not, no. So it doesn't seem to bother my vision at all.

• 1:35:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I've I've heard so many doctors and obviously none of this is advice for anybody.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  I've heard so many doctors say throw the safety goggles in the trash. Look right into it if you want to. It's gonna help your eyes. There's so many stories of people with macular degeneration and glaucoma and eye conditions and stuff that it's gotten multitudes better than than it was.

• 1:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Obviously, my story is anecdotal, but my vision was shifting in a very a real bad way. I was using three, those three power ones, you know, those cheap, these are cheap. I buy them off Amazon, but I use three. And I started with one, like one power, and then it got to two power, and then I'll get the three. I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm fucking going blind. I can't see shit.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't need any anymore. Now, my vision's not perfect. It's not twenty twenty. It's not what it used to be. So when I read things, it's like maybe slightly blurry, and if I put reading glasses on, it'll look a little better, but I don't need them anymore, and it keeps getting better. I also take Lutene and a bunch of different supplements. I take this uh, no affiliation. I don't work with them or anything, but it's called uh Pure Encapsulations Macular Support. They have a supplement for it. I take those. I've been taking those steadily at the same time I've been doing the red light therapy and it works. At least it works for me, you know, it worked for Whitney Cummings, same thing with her.

• 1:36:40Joe Rogan?

  Her, her vision got way better. She, she's very diligent about it. She does it every day.

• 1:36:45Speaker 03

  There's something there.

• 1:36:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Speaker 03

  Something there.

• 1:36:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's for sure something about staring at a fucking phone all day that's really bad for your eyes. Staring at a phone, staring at a tablet, staring at a laptop, staring at a computer screen. It's not good for your eyes, period.

• 1:36:59Speaker 03

  There's no way.

• 1:37:00Joe Rogan?

  There's no way.

• 1:37:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:01Joe Rogan?

  When I look at my phone in bed at night, if I do, it hurts my eyes.

• 1:37:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:06Joe Rogan?

  You know, like if it's dark in the room and I'm like, let me check my email real quick. I get to my email, it's like, ah, it's like it's bright. If I go to a website that's like a white website, it's like, ah, it hurts.

• 1:37:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And did you know you can change your iPhone?

• 1:37:21Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:04Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:50Speaker 03

  Like if you go into accessibility, it's like color overlay, I forget the name of it, where you can make the whole screen red.

• 1:38:57Joe Rogan?

  I have seen people do that. I have not done that.

• 1:39:01Speaker 03

  I've tried to do it on mine. It's tough, but I did it on our two-year-old's iPad, and nothing is addictive anymore. Like, she won't sit there and stare at it for more than three or four minutes anymore.

• 1:39:12Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:39:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's just, like, I didn't buy some special device or anything. You just go into accessibility and make it red. And it used to be that she would just sit there and hold the iPad.

• 1:39:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:22Speaker 03

  I'm an anti-electronics guy, so I wanted to try this experiment. And the moment I turned it red, she didn't complain about the red. She got used to it within fifteen minutes and never complained again. Her iPad has never gone off of the red mode. And she doesn't get hooked into shows anymore.

• 1:39:40Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:39:41Speaker 03

  She'll watch it for a few minutes and be like, "Okay, that's great." Put it down and then go, she'll go play.

• 1:39:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:39:47Speaker 03

  So it's worth an experiment, if anybody's got little, small kids out there. Or do it to yourself.

• 1:39:52Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing that they provide you with a tool to escape the addiction that they've created.

• 1:40:00Speaker 03

  It's so true, man.

• 1:40:02Joe Rogan?

  Because it's a pretty intense addiction. I think they feel like, "Good luck, you're never getting off this hook. This hook has sunk in deep and the barb is strong."

• 1:40:12Speaker 03

  Big time.

• 1:40:13Joe Rogan?

  It's so strong.

• 1:40:14Speaker 03

  And that it's the, it's the production tool of, of reality right now. If I want to alter reality, I've just got to engineer how you see it. And that's, that's the way that we see realities. What's on my phone?

• 1:40:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And that's the problem that a lot of people have with tech companies, is that you're giving these people that aren't particularly wise, they might be intelligent, they figured out how to code these things and make these things and market these things, but it's not like they're monks. They're not these, like, profound visionaries that are much more educated, enlightened than the general population.

• 1:40:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:40:50Joe Rogan?

  No. A lot of them have autism. And no empathy. They're out of their fucking minds. And they're optimizing the software continually to get people to engage with it.

• 1:41:01Joe Rogan?

  They want you to.

• 1:41:03Speaker 03

  I mean, that's the, that's the EBITDA. That's the bottom line revenue comes from ads and how many ads can I show you?

• 1:41:10Joe Rogan?

  And if I know, I know. And your data, how much data of yours can I sell?

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:15Joe Rogan?

  It's nuts.

• 1:41:16Speaker 03

  Which is why like, I think it's so important for people to be literate, extremely literate in what's going on with your phone? What's going on with your brain and psyops, like the shit that we see coming out of the news right now? And I'm the guy that trains psyops. In two days after I leave here, I'm going to Fort Bragg to train the United States Army Psyops Division.

• 1:41:39Speaker 03

  I'm the, I'm the guy.

• 1:41:40Joe Rogan?

  What are you training them in? Are you allowed to say?

• 1:41:42Speaker 03

  In psyops.

• 1:41:44Joe Rogan?

  Are you just training them how they work and how to do it?

• 1:41:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, like how, I, I'm the body language, like people reading guy. I don't know if you've ever seen our YouTube channel, The Behavior Panel?

• 1:41:52Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:41:52Speaker 03

  Me and a couple.

• 1:41:53Joe Rogan?

  You got a great YouTube channel. It's awesome. Really good.

• 1:41:55Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thanks. And I have another one with three other behavior profilers where we break down videos of people in interrogation and, and stuff like that. And I think it's so important to be literate in a lot of this stuff and how does our brain work? How can I be compromised? And so I created a tool and I gave it to Jamie before we started the show that, that will give you a one to 100 score on how likely something is a psyop.

• 1:42:23Joe Rogan?

  Ah. And is it an app or is it like on a website?

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  It's just a PDF and you can run anything through it and you can run it historically and see what, what's a psyop and what's not. And it's, it's kind of subjective, but at least you get a standardized score for everything. And you can see like, if you went to, um, like the invading Iraq initially.

• 1:42:47Joe Rogan?

  Okay, that's a good one.

• 1:42:48Speaker 03

  That would score a 98 out of 100 for, for psyop, just on this tool here. So like, it kind of goes in layers. So step one is like this pre-ignition, like I have societal stuff going on. There's moral panic. Then operational, are there drills happening that are kind of similar to this? Military ramping up? The regulatory, obviously that's pretty there, like bills getting passed at two in the morning and.

• 1:43:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:14Speaker 03

  5,000 pages.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:16Speaker 03

  In alignment, so like people suddenly aligning different news agencies and then authorities, celebrities are starting to come out with the same messaging and stuff like that. And then media, like just kind of flooding little slogans and stuff. So if that kind of score is kind of high, and you don't even need the numbers right now, then we move to the next one. So has this happened before? The precursor anomalies, like have they done this before? Well, matter of fact, they gave people LSD against their will at MKUltra, you know, whatever, like is there some precursor?

• 1:43:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:47Speaker 03

  And then identical phrasing across unrelated outlets. So we see something on MSNBC and Fox saying the same kind of phrasing or something. That's kind of suspicious. And then introduced villains that are prepackaged. Pretty obvious, injecting symbolism. And then the manufacturer urgency, like if if this bill isn't passed in the next 72 hours, we're going to face a national crisis and all this kind of stuff. And then you could just kind of go down the, go down the walkway and it'll give you a predictive score of how likely something is a psyop. And one of the biggest things is if if you don't want to like, this is a lot of crap to like to memorize, but are you seeing authority figures resonate with each other?

• 1:44:31Speaker 03

  And are is nuance not being presented to you? And that's like, if I'm not seeing nuance, if I have a left versus right issue and there's a prepackaged villain, that's a psyop. If you just look at those couple of things is then nowadays we have a death of nuance where no one's getting presented any nuance to anything. It's just, it's either you're on this side, you're wearing this jersey or this jersey, which is really toxic to our, our whole entire country, the whole world.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  And it's accentuated by clips and these weird little things.

• 1:45:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, and if you're on the left.

• 1:45:05Joe Rogan?

  Takeout nuance.

• 1:45:06Speaker 03

  Let's say I'm, I'm on the left. Uh, when I log into social media, whatever it is, they're going to show me the dumbest shithead morons on the other side that they could possibly find.

• 1:45:17Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:45:18Speaker 03

  And the same thing if I'm on the right, they're going to show me the biggest idiots. And the, the only goal is being like me thinking, oh my God, these people are insane. And it's me thinking that's all of them.

• 1:45:29Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:45:29Speaker 03

  But like if you go to Target right now and see somebody that voted differently than you, you want the same shit. You want your kids to be healthy, you want safety, you want to pay less taxes, you want, you want the government less and less involved in your life and. They're not all insane, but the goal is to make you think all of the other side is insane. Right? That's the ultimate psyop. So then at the end, you kind of get a one to a hundred score. And I started a, I bought a TV station. Did I tell you about this?

• 1:45:58Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:45:59Speaker 03

  I was gonna text you, or I was gonna send you an email about this. I bought a TV station. We started our own daily news show. Where we run the day's events all the way through the psyops index every single day. And we show, here's how you're being presented. Here's how you're being made to feel about this issue. Here's where nuance has been taken out. Every single thing that's like truly going on. Here's the bill that got passed that nobody's talking about that has a lot to do with this. Here's the, they're saying the Strait of Hormuz is gonna open, but here's what Brent crude is predicting oil prices at. So the insurance market has a lot more info than, than the news is gonna give you. So we like try to give you every single day, here's how you're being made to feel. Here's the actual news.

• 1:46:44Speaker 03

  Here's what they're, left is gonna say, who's the right's gonna say. And here's where they're killing nuance. Here's where you're being presented a binary choice. And I think I'm, I'm trying to, like, I wanna make psyops irrelevant. And, and, and what we have to do, what are the steps we have to take to not really inoculate people from psyops? But just to make them so fucking visible that it's just obvious. And yeah, they're gonna have to invent something else, and they will. But at least for a few years, people are, are really wise to everything. Like, this is very obvious, cuz like, all the things that were up on that sheet right there. If you look at that a few times, it, it starts to become irrelevant.

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  And like, my goal is to make people more expensive to influence.

• 1:47:33Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:35Joe Rogan?

  I think it's possible. I think if this gets out there, the more people are aware and just can piece it together and the more that narrative starts getting pushed and people start repeating it, like, let's pay attention to this. When you say you bought a TV channel or a TV station, what do you mean?

• 1:47:51Speaker 03

  Like an actual station, a physical station with a news desk and...

• 1:47:56Joe Rogan?

  Where does it air?

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  Uh, it's on YouTube right now.

• 1:47:59Joe Rogan?

  So where'd you buy this place? Where was it? Just like...

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  Ten minutes from my house.

• 1:48:03Joe Rogan?

  So was a former TV station that was like going out of business?

• 1:48:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, we retrofitted everything, upgraded it. But it's...

• 1:48:09Joe Rogan?

  There's probably a fire sale on TV stations right now.

• 1:48:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. It was, we got a good deal.

• 1:48:16Joe Rogan?

  Nobody's watching TV. That's great.

• 1:48:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, we retrofitted it and like the quality's up there with like Fox or anybody else. Like we have a daily show.

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  What's the daily show on YouTube called?

• 1:48:27Speaker 03

  Uh, Station One.

• 1:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Station One?

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Surprisingly, that wasn't taken.

• 1:48:31Joe Rogan?

  It's a new channel?

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, perfect.

• 1:48:33Speaker 03

  Brand new channel. We have like, most of the subscribers were my mom, I think, for the first month. We're growing now.

• 1:48:41Joe Rogan?

  So you just started it off and no fanfare, just try to get the feet on the ground?

• 1:48:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, try to kick it off. And it's, you know, I do it with my YouTube channel, uh, which I've got two million something subscribers on YouTube and, um, it's cool that I can make these documentaries, but you know on YouTube, like you can't change it up on people. Like there's, the algorithm punishes when you change things. So we had to start a new channel.

• 1:49:07Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:49:08Speaker 03

  Like you guys started JRE Clips.

• 1:49:12Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:49:13Speaker 03

  Cause you can't like, back in the day, the algorithm said you can't do short form and then long form stuff and the algorithm kind of punishes you for that. So you had to make a new channel for it. Probably what Jamie did or the team did.

• 1:49:24Joe Rogan?

  I don't remember what the initial reason was. I think we decided it would be good just to have a second channel as well anyway, just in case, cause there was always the threat that YouTube was gonna remove us.

• 1:49:35Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Which I do think that if it wasn't for Spotify and it wasn't for the fact that I was primarily on Spotify, I probably would have been removed during the whole COVID thing.

• 1:49:46Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 1:49:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because we were regularly questioning a bunch of different things that could have got you removed. We were regularly questioning, regularly questioning the COVID lab leak. We were regularly questioning whether or not there was any danger to taking these vaccines, regularly questioning alternative medical care.

• 1:50:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that was maybe the biggest psyop of our lifetimes.

• 1:50:11Joe Rogan?

  For sure, and now, now confirmed.

• 1:50:15Speaker 03

  That woke up normal people.

• 1:50:17Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:50:17Speaker 03

  That woke up average people.

• 1:50:19Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:19Speaker 03

  Because it was so obvious.

• 1:50:21Joe Rogan?

  Woke up a lot. Some of them, like, they just can't shake them. They're on 15 Ambians, fucking.

• 1:50:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Joe Rogan?

  They're just, they're gonna stay.

• 1:50:29Speaker 03

  I've got family members that are very trustful of government, and they're like, no, Chase, if, if, if it was gonna go bad, or if it was this thing, they, they would tell us. And I was like, these are the people who gave you the food pyramid.

• 1:50:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  And told you to eat 16 loaves of bread every day.

• 1:50:44Joe Rogan?

  And, and, yeah, it's, it's the idea that the government is here to help you is like, that's the dumbest.

• 1:50:51Speaker 03

  That was Reagan's best line.

• 1:50:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that they're the five, yeah, we're the government and we're here to help.

• 1:50:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, um, it's interesting how people will believe in the government if it is convenient, but then if the other people are the government, then it's 100% negative.

• 1:51:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:11Joe Rogan?

  It's like, people are so ideologically captured, and that's why people are completely unwilling to look at anything positive that one of the other members, someone from the other side proposes.

• 1:51:25Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:51:26Joe Rogan?

  Which is what I found really fascinating about the response to the Trump thing. You know, that Trump passing the psychedelic initiative and trying to push through ibogaine and psilocybin and all these different methods that people have used to overcome addiction and treat all these different things that we talked about before. They didn't know what to do with that. That was a weird one because they tried to find all sorts of negatives. I saw people trying to find negatives.

• 1:51:53Speaker 03

  Because it's him.

• 1:51:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:55Speaker 03

  Which is so crazy.

• 1:51:57Joe Rogan?

  And there was also negatives because it was pushed by me and the guy was Joe Rogan helping mental health policy in America. Is that real?

• 1:52:05Speaker 03

  You're the green guy who takes horse paste, though.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  And a dragon believer.

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting time to be alive, you know, really is.

• 1:52:17Speaker 03

  So what emotionally for you, if I think if I saw myself edited like that on CNN or something, I feel like that would wreck me. I feel like that would emotionally make me feel like shit for such a long time. Were you just like over it?

• 1:52:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it didn't make me feel like shit for a second. I started laughing. I thought it was hilarious. I was also very aware that they weren't aware that my show was way bigger than them. See, the thing about mainstream media is that mainstream media had ruled for so long that they had gotten delusional. They had been like a champion that didn't think that he had a train anymore. And then some new contender came along that had been, you know, in the mountains of fucking Siberia.

• 1:53:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:02Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean? Someone came out of the blue and just fucked them up and they were, they're so bad at this thing that they think they run. And they're also, they also are very, they're very unaware of the actual playing field. So the actual playing field that they exist in is so limited that they cannot ever. Achieve the kind of acceptance or interaction or trust that alternative media can.

• 1:53:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:33Joe Rogan?

  So there's too many people involved, too many people will most certainly move things and water things down to like what you were talking about before, like here's what I want people to think I believe, right?

• 1:53:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  Which is most of what mainstream media produces. It's here's what I want people to think I believe. You don't believe any of those people reading that teleprompter because none of it seems sincere.

• 1:53:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:53Joe Rogan?

  Your, your mind registers, this is a person reading something that's been written. It doesn't register. And then when you see them talking free form, like on those panel shows on CNN, you're like, oh, you guys are fucking retarded. Like this is, you guys have some of the dumbest opinions, you're so uninformed, you're so ideologically captured, this is so not compelling. They've turned CNN into a fucking group podcast. That's a lot of the shows on CNN are bad podcasts with like

• 1:54:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:21Joe Rogan?

  shitty guests who, uh, you know, they're, no nuance and they're yelling over each other.

• 1:54:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:54:28Joe Rogan?

  It's a terrible format.

• 1:54:28Speaker 03

  No nuance whatsoever.

• 1:54:30Joe Rogan?

  It's also the problem that they have to break for commercials.

• 1:54:32Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  And then there's the problem that the funding for those commercials, a giant chunk of it is pharmaceutical drug companies.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  Huge.

• 1:54:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And, and as Mike Benz and Callie Means and a lot of people have talked about, they don't do that because they want to sell drugs. They do that because now the news will not criticize the pharmaceutical drug company.

• 1:54:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:58Joe Rogan?

  Because the pharmaceutical drug company is responsible for enormous part of their income.

• 1:55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I mean, I wouldn't say definitively that that's happening, but I mean, if you're the, if you're the CEO or the president, you know exactly where the money's coming from.

• 1:55:12Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:55:13Speaker 03

  And if you get a phone call that says, hey, you know what? Maybe not mention that.

• 1:55:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:18Speaker 03

  Or maybe

• 1:55:18Joe Rogan?

  And maybe attack someone who's got a narrative

• 1:55:21Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:55:22Joe Rogan?

  And turn them green and do all that other stuff. But like I said, for me, it was making me laugh. I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny. I was like, this is such a classic mistake. Like you, you guys are completely

• 1:55:35Speaker 03

  Out of touch.

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Just delusional.

• 1:55:38Speaker 03

  Not understanding the backlash of that, of just doing open Like in your face, like there was no like, hey, look over here.

• 1:55:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  It was just in your face psyop.

• 1:55:49Joe Rogan?

  Not just that, they're also, you, you're making a green version of a video that exists on Instagram first. So it's already out there. You don't think the internet is gonna see that there's a difference in my skin tone on CNN than on Instagram? On Instagram, I look rosy and healthy. I wasn't lying. I was making a video. If I was really sick, I was outside. I was outside, having a, I was like, I feel good. I felt shitty for a day. I was being completely honest. Nor did I ever think that it was gonna be controversial to talk about ivermectin. I had no idea. So ivermectin was not a controversial substance before I talked about it in that one video.

• 1:56:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:28Joe Rogan?

  It was, it was normal. You could get it at a pharmacy. Your doctor could prescribe it to you. Mine did. But he also prescribed to me a ton of other stuff.

• 1:56:37Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:56:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:38Speaker 03

  It's so much other stuff, like fenbendazole that's now getting in the, into the same category as ivermectin was.

• 1:56:45Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:45Speaker 03

  And Mel Gibson talked about it here with you.

• 1:56:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  Of that combo. And there's a study now that shows, I think it's from 2022, that it's a cancer treatment, like a new cancer treatment.

• 1:56:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:59Speaker 03

  What the hell?

• 1:57:00Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  It's not patented, so it's, it's a demon.

• 1:57:04Joe Rogan?

  It's a demon and these news stations are all complicit. They're, they're all in bed with the pharmaceutical drug companies who, again, are responsible for an enormous part of their advertising budget. And that's where they make their money.

• 1:57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:18Joe Rogan?

  And they don't have a lot of people that believe them anymore. I think they lost a lot of their credibility during the COVID epidemic.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  Who? Media?

• 1:57:28Joe Rogan?

  News media.

• 1:57:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the government.

• 1:57:31Joe Rogan?

  And the government, but most people are aware, like, oh, this is a psyop. And then, of course, the final straw was Elon purchasing Twitter. And then the Twitter files. So when Matt Taibbi and, and Michael Schellenberger and all these different people got ahold of these files, where you could see the emails between the federal government and these social media companies where they're asking people to censor true stories.

• 1:57:59Joe Rogan?

  And you're like, what? And then when Zuckerberg was on my podcast, I explained how the FBI had contacted him and told him that they wanted him to censor stories and censor the Hunter Biden laptop story.

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  It's terrifying.

• 1:58:13Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking crazy. This is, this is literally Banana Republic shit.

• 1:58:17Speaker 03

  So have you heard of Project Mockingbird?

• 1:58:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:58:21Speaker 03

  Operation Mockingbird. And I mean, it's not new. So, I mean, somebody says like, oh, I can't believe the government's doing this. And we're like, wait a second. Just go, just look at history.

• 1:58:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:31Speaker 03

  And Dr. Phil says, one time is a pattern. And if you go back, there's way more than one time this has happened. And Operation Mockingbird, Walter Cronkite was a CIA asset.

• 1:58:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:44Speaker 03

  Legit CIA asset.

• 1:58:46Joe Rogan?

  So is Anderson Cooper.

• 1:58:48Speaker 03

  Is he?

• 1:58:48Joe Rogan?

  Anderson Cooper worked for the CIA when he was in college.

• 1:58:51Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 1:58:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Look that up. Make sure that's true. I'm 99% sure. 99% sure, rather.

• 1:58:57Speaker 03

  Julia Childs?

• 1:58:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:58:59Speaker 03

  Did you know she was CIA?

• 1:59:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, she's a lovely, lovely little thing. She's beautiful. She was in the CIA, teaching people how to bake?

• 1:59:06Speaker 03

  I think she did the hand-to-hand combat course.

• 1:59:11Joe Rogan?

  Fucked people up with a rolling pin. Is the Anderson Cooper thing correct? I believe he worked for the CIA in college. Anderson Cooper interned at the CIA for two consecutive summers while he was a political science major at Yale University. He did not pursue a career in intelligence, wink, wink. After graduating, later described the agency's desk work at Langley as, less James Bond than I hoped it would be. Yeah. Well, I think it's all less James Bond. It's, it's more money. It's more money and influence. And what do the people in power want people to believe? But he's not the only one. Walter Cronkite.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  There were hundreds.

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Speaker 03

  Hundreds and hundreds. So much, it was every network. And there's no direct, there's no declassified document that says, here's what we told them to say, or here's how compromised they were. But they were compromised completely and, and most likely told exactly what to say or what stories to suppress.

• 2:00:11Joe Rogan?

  Does Mike Wallace have some sort of a connection?

• 2:00:14Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 2:00:15Joe Rogan?

  See if Mike Wallace had some sort of a connection with the CIA.

• 2:00:20Joe Rogan?

  But it's a bunch of prominent, respected, trusted news anchors.

• 2:00:26Speaker 03

  Yes, all over the place. And this is through the 50s, 60s, I think in the beginning of the 70s, until this thing called the...

• 2:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Mike Wallace is famous for his probing investigative reporting on CBS's 60 Minutes regarding the CIA, most notably in landmark 1993 report called titled "The CIA's Cocaine Exposed." So he's the opposite. So he worked to expose CIA stuff. The report exposed a covert CIA anti-drug operation in Venezuela that allowed hundreds of millions of dollars in cocaine to be smuggled. Okay, this is Iran-Contra affair.

• 2:00:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, okay, so it's the opposite.

• 2:01:03Speaker 03

  But with so many things, like, somebody's like, "Oh, I can't believe COVID's doing this." Well, look at history again. Like, we dosed millions of people with LSD against their consent, against their will.

• 2:01:15Joe Rogan?

  Was it millions?

• 2:01:17Speaker 03

  I think, well, there were experiments with aerosol forms of LSD that were in cities.

• 2:01:23Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:01:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:25Joe Rogan?

  I didn't know about that.

• 2:01:26Speaker 03

  Jamie.

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Aerosol LSD in cities?

• 2:01:29Speaker 03

  Somewhere near, like Vermont or Boston, somewhere up in like the New England area.

• 2:01:37Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 2:01:38Joe Rogan?

  What kind of a psycho do you have to be to like get a crop duster plane and fill up a tank of LSD and just spray it on kids?

• 2:01:46Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't, I don't get it. And then you go back to when we dosed, I don't know, I don't know how many African Americans with syphilis, or we like grouped them together. They had syphilis.

• 2:01:56Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, and didn't treat them.

• 2:01:57Speaker 03

  And gave them fake treatments and stuff.

• 2:01:59Joe Rogan?

  US government has never openly sprayed LSD from the air over entire cities. However, during the Cold War, intelligence agencies and the military did conduct covert aerosol and mind control experiments on the public. What does that mean? It means you did it.

• 2:02:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, not from a plane, though, most likely. They were like...

• 2:02:16Joe Rogan?

  They probably had a fan and a bucket.

• 2:02:19Joe Rogan?

  CIA's notorious Project MKUltra sought to weaponize LSD and use it for mind control. CIA operatives were sent to San Francisco to spray the air with LSD-25 at an unwitting party of guests. Oh, I did hear about this. The result: the agency ultimately abandoned the specific aerosol test at the last minute because the summer weather was too hot to keep the windows closed and their specialized aerosol device malfunctioned.

• 2:02:48Speaker 03

  There we go. Number two: the army sprayed thousands of unsuspecting Americans with aerosolized chemicals.

• 2:02:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Military released a fine powder called zinc cadmium sulfide over 33 rural and suburban rather and rural areas. Scroll up a little bit, please. Yeah. The targeted cities, affected cities included St. Louis, Minneapolis, Winnipeg, Corpus Christi, and Fort Wayne. St. Louis was deliberately chosen because its population density and the terrain were similar to the Soviet targets like Moscow.

• 2:03:22Speaker 04

  I was just looking up something else. Did you know about this?

• 2:03:27Joe Rogan?

  Why the fuck did Dan Rather and Donald Rumsfeld buy a New Mexico ranch together in 1981?

• 2:03:33Speaker 04

  That's the same year he was promoted to news anchor at CBS Evening News.

• 2:03:37Speaker 03

  Good lord.

• 2:03:38Speaker 04

  And it's also like right next door to the Epstein Ranch in New Mexico.

• 2:03:41Joe Rogan?

  Right. And Epstein famously got that to be close to Los Alamos, right? So he could lure those scientists over with pussy.

• 2:03:51Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 2:03:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:53Speaker 03

  But I mean, like you go back through history, this is, everybody's like, oh, the COVID was crazy. It's not new.

• 2:03:59Joe Rogan?

  It's just we hadn't experienced it so blatantly before because they had never tried something like that during the age of social media.

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. And they used a playbook that relied on putting a letter in the mail or sending a telegram.

• 2:04:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They used a playbook also that required having control over the narratives that were being pushed out by the media.

• 2:04:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:19Joe Rogan?

  And the media had lost its luster, lost its impact on people. At the same time, the rise of podcasts had happened kind of under the radar and they didn't recognize it. They missed it. They just overestimated their position.

• 2:04:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And during COVID, you had more viewers than CNN even?

• 2:04:36Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, when they turned me green and all that cancellation, I gained 2 million followers on Spotify in a month.

• 2:04:44Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:04:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:46Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:04:47Joe Rogan?

  People were just like, what is going on that everybody's trying to cancel this guy? Like, what is he doing? And then they'd listen and go, oh, it's just a show where they talk to people. What are they trying to hide from us? And then you have guys on like Dr. Peter McCullough and Robert Malone and all these different people that are... You know, Peter McCullough is the most published doctor in history, in human history, in his particular field of study. And they were trying to make him out to be a quack. And then you see what they did with Jay Bhattacharya and all these different people.

• 2:05:18Speaker 03

  And one of those guys was the inventor of mRNA.

• 2:05:21Joe Rogan?

  Robert Malone. He has nine patents on the creation of mRNA technology.

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  And he should never be out there telling people that it might not be safe.

• 2:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, he took it and had a fucking serious horrible reaction where he almost died.

• 2:05:36Speaker 03

  Really?

• 2:05:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which is what prompted him to try to figure out what the fuck is going on. Cause he was assured by everyone that it stayed local, it's not gonna cause massive inflammation and, you know, myocarditis and all these different things that it eventually was absolutely causing. You know, and then there's, you know, they're trying to hide now the impact that it's had on children. You know, the impact that it's had on children that took it and how, what giant percentage of them that died after taking it, died within days of the injection.

• 2:06:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:08Joe Rogan?

  And they're trying to ignore the signal. And there's so many gaslighters all over Twitter. There's people that are paid to gaslight on Twitter. That's a fact. They, there's pharmaceutical drug companies, just like a lot of other companies, will pay people to post. They'll pay people to attack. They'll pay people to be the voice of authority and reason so you can assure all the brainwashed boomers that they're right all along and everything's fine.

• 2:06:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, and if you just look at basic manipulation and mind control, the number one fear of human beings is supposedly public speaking, right? But that's not it. It's the judgment that might come from public speaking. It's not the being onstage.

• 2:06:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:51Speaker 03

  It's like, is somebody gonna judge me? Am I gonna get ostracized? So the way that they control a lot of this and gaslight people is to use the fear of social punishment and social enforcement. And if I can get one celebrity to go out there and call these people a name, and just give them a name as if it's a group of people, you know, like anti-vaxxer, conspiracy theorist, dragon believer. That kind of thing. We give it a name and that makes it easier for other people to socially enforce. And it comes from an authority figure. So you get the tribe involved and all you gotta do is

• 2:07:33Speaker 03

  is fuck up a few people.

• 2:07:35Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:07:36Speaker 03

  Like Robert Malone. And they're like, hey, I can take this guy down.

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:41Speaker 03

  What do you think I'm gonna do to you?

• 2:07:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:43Speaker 03

  And you just get that fear out there and that's all you need to do. And you kind of gaslight people because now like I'm scared enough, but I won't say I'm scared. I'll say, nah, I'd rather not just say my opinion. So now my identity gets tied into it. Now it's part of who I am. I'm just not gonna say anything. And it gets normalized, like the absolute, just let me mute myself and tape my mouth shut so I don't get punished.

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  And then there's a bunch of people that attack and do the work for the man because they don't want to be lumped in with the other side. So they'll go on social media and call the anti-vaxxers plague rats and all these different things.

• 2:08:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:20Joe Rogan?

  And also say the wildest shit, like their children should be taken from them. They should be locked up, isolated from society.

• 2:08:27Speaker 03

  And this is something called category warfare. Have you ever heard of this?

• 2:08:31Joe Rogan?

  I know the expression.

• 2:08:33Speaker 03

  This guy, I can't remember his name.

• 2:08:37Speaker 03

  He wrote a book called Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things. It was the first language categories that we had for language was women, fire, and dangerous stuff. I think his name was Lakin, George Lakin, or Lakoff. But if we, if I frame something using a category, I can change what the allowed behavior is. So if I say that me and this other person are having a disagreement, your, your brain automatically has a list of what a disagreement is and what's acceptable. But if I say we're having a fight, now there's, there's new stuff on the table. And all I did was change how something is defined in your brain. And we don't consciously process that our brain is getting permission to do things because of a category.

• 2:09:20Speaker 03

  But if I say, I've been at war with these people for a long time. Now, war is way different. Or if I say, like, I disagree with Rogan, that's one thing. But if I say Rogan is a threat, what do we do to something that's a threat? Right? We, we have to neutralize a threat. Right. So just small words like that change what our brain says is permissible in that moment. And that is really what's going on here. So actually, two layers. If I can go into this for a second. Sure. Number one is this category. Let me just get a category out there to make your brain think one thing is permissible. The second thing is, I create the idea in such a way that you get to feel morally superior for adopting it. And you don't have to have any new morals or anything else.

• 2:10:04Speaker 03

  You just have to adopt this idea and you get to feel better than other people. And that's it. So I changed the category means like I can do something differently. So in a, in a legal argument, if somebody says, we're at war with the other side, this is my opponent instead of the other person, what do we do with an opponent? We have to take them down. It's a fight. There's a winner, there's a loser, there's always assumed competition there. So that is one of the biggest things that I, I hope everybody can look out for as a, as the influence psyops expert. And I'm not immune to any of this stuff. I buy stupid shit on, off of an Instagram ad as much as the next person.

• 2:10:47Speaker 03

  But it's important to know when it's, when something is clearly presented to you, and it's easy to feel emotional about it, you're being manipulated. Something's clearly presented, and it's just like, here's this one thing, and it's really clean, and it's easy to get pissed off about, or it's easy to feel comfortable about, or whatever it is. If the emotional thing is easy, without having to dig into it, you're being manipulated.

• 2:11:14Joe Rogan?

  And that's a giant percentage of what most people consume.

• 2:11:19Speaker 03

  It's, yeah.

• 2:11:21Joe Rogan?

  All day long.

• 2:11:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:11:24Speaker 03

  And it's, it's compounding. So if I just consume a little bit, that's, that's one thing. But now I get a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit further into this rabbit hole. And we get into these, obviously, everyone says this online, but you get into these echo chamber of social media, all of a sudden, you can, you can find your people anywhere. You can, you can connect with your people. If you like to make knitted yarn vest for hamsters, you can find other people that do shit like that. So back in the day, if you had a bad idea, you couldn't find a lot of other people that agreed with you. And now it's easier to find people to agree with you when you have a shitty idea. So there's a niche, there's a whole separate niche.

• 2:12:09Speaker 03

  And on top, while you're there getting told that your ideas are relevant and normal, they're not abnormal, because there's so many other people, it normalizes bad ideas. The second part of that is, I'm with all these people, but then I go back to normal social media, and all I get told all day is, I'm right about those people, I'm right about those people, I'm right about those people. And it's just, it is so sick. And, and, which goes back to what we were first talking about, how performative our world is, and like... All of us conceal the shame so much that we can't ever be seen by anybody. Like, we'll go to their grave and feel like my wife has never even seen who I truly am. You know?

• 2:12:51Joe Rogan?

  And then the other thing that's nuts is people have this complete inability to admit when they're wrong or change course. They have connected themselves, they've connected their whole being to whatever their thoughts are, whatever this thing that they've agreed is real. And once they've defended it, they never want to go back and objectively look at it and go, wait a minute. Oh, I believe this and that's not the case. Oh, this is the case. Oh, I'm wrong. Oh, no, I gotta, I gotta course correct. No, they dig in and they try to find other echo chambers that agree with their initial position and other people that disagree. And there's plenty of people that'll provide those services for you.

• 2:13:36Joe Rogan?

  Plenty of people, if you want to live in your echo chamber, plenty of people, real and digital, that will provide you this escape from your ability to learn and grow.

• 2:13:46Speaker 03

  And a sycophantic AI will do, will help you with that too.

• 2:13:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they're the best. They'll tell you, you're wonderful, darling, you're doing the best. I always tell people, you're not your ideas. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself.

• 2:14:31Joe Rogan?

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• 2:14:56Joe Rogan?

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• 2:15:38Joe Rogan?

  Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE, or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply. It's one of the most important things that I've ever learned. You cannot be married to your ideas. Your ideas are just ideas. And as soon as you defend them, and as soon as you connect yourself to them, and as soon as you connect your identity to them, you're in a fucking trap. You're in a real trap, and it's very hard to get out without admitting defeat. Most people don't want to admit defeat. And that's how they look at it. It's like a battle for their existential existence.

• 2:16:21Joe Rogan?

  Their existence is completely tied in to their belief system.

• 2:16:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we call that cognitive dissonance, right? So I either have to say, "I'm a dumbass," or "those other people are stupid."

• 2:16:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:36Speaker 03

  So like when Biden won the election, it was the same thing people on the right either had to admit, "Wow, I'm stupid and I underestimated what our country's doing," or "the other people are just idiots and they don't know what's going on." Same thing happened when Trump got elected. Either like the whole country is stupid, or I have to admit that I didn't know what was going on, and I'm out of touch a little bit, and maybe there's something good. And I'll just say they're all stupid. Protecting our identity is so, it's ingrained into us. It's the ego thing. Like, I don't want to be wrong. And if I am wrong, and I'm wrong in public, then I risk ostracism again. So it's like, it's getting kicked out of the tribe again. It's going back to the same fear.

• 2:17:18Joe Rogan?

  And people love to do that, too. They love to attack people if they're wrong. Love to destroy people and ruin all credibility that they've ever had. That they've, you could have been a public figure for 10 years, putting out great information. You fuck one thing up, people want to ban you forever. Especially if you don't admit it. Especially.

• 2:17:39Speaker 03

  Oh, you're running for office? What about that, you took a nude when you were 19? You took a naked photo.

• 2:17:46Speaker 03

  And that goes back to everyone's pretending like they're, like, everyone else has got their shit figured out. And that's why everyone thinks everybody's got it figured out, and I'm pretending. I'm the one hiding everything. I'm the, everyone's got that shit. Everyone who thinks like, oh, they're gonna find out my skeleton. Everybody's got skeletons in their closet. Everybody's got stuff like that. And it's, we're in the age where we're comparing ourselves to highlight reels and, you know, Dr. Phil talks about this all the time. And, but we have to realize that there is, people want you to be human. And we don't enjoy fake shit.

• 2:18:26Speaker 03

  This is why people are attracted to your podcast. This is why stuff that's real is trending so much more now. Like, we're attracted to things that are human and flawed. That's why we buy shit that says handmade on it. We don't buy like, oh, machine made. No one celebrates that, right?

• 2:18:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:43Speaker 03

  We like the humanness of things. And even when I say there's a loneliness epidemic going on right now, everyone will nod their head, and no one will raise their hand. Everyone will say, oh, yeah, it's affecting all those people. But no one will say, it's affecting me. But they'll all nod along. I think we're getting to a place where, like, maybe we're coming out of that. It just, maybe it's me, maybe it's my echo chamber, but I feel like people are waking up. I feel like more people. Not just through covid, but just now, just the way the world is, they're like, well, you know what? This doesn't really feel, it doesn't really, it feels weird for me to hate and feel hatred towards one of my neighbors who didn't vote like I did. That feels weird.

• 2:19:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:28Speaker 03

  Just to hate someone for that reason. I think people are waking up that maybe the plan is going too fast. Maybe they're taking it too quickly. They're trying to go through all these steps too fast. It's what it feels like to me.

• 2:19:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, also, I don't think they're competent. I don't think they're good at it. And that's part of the problem.

• 2:19:47Speaker 03

  Good at what?

• 2:19:48Joe Rogan?

  Good at projecting narratives. I don't, I don't think the people that are necessarily in charge of propaganda, at least people at a government level, I don't think they're particularly slick.

• 2:20:00Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:20:01Joe Rogan?

  And that's part of the problem with all this.

• 2:20:03Speaker 03

  It's like when you're at a middle school sleepover and the dad comes in trying to be cool. It's like, hey, kids, what are you guys doing? That's the government trying to run this shit. This is when you get syringes dancing on stage on the, on a late night TV show.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  Right. That was nuts.

• 2:20:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also a person who seems completely insincere, you know?

• 2:20:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:26Joe Rogan?

  That, that version of him, it's weird because the version of him that was on the, the Daily Show was awesome. Like it was this caricature.

• 2:20:34Speaker 03

  And irreverent.

• 2:20:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:35Speaker 03

  And he was raw and irreverent. Yeah.

• 2:20:38Joe Rogan?

  But you realize, oh, that was just really good writers.

• 2:20:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  They have really good writers that created a fun Republican character that was a buffoon, but like a hilarious buffoon.

• 2:20:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:50Joe Rogan?

  And then he went and did a TV show and you're like, oh, the real you is weird.

• 2:20:59Speaker 03

  But I, I think our saving grace is what you're talking about, is that they suck at this. Like, when your teacher announces there's going to be a pizza party and expects everybody to be super freaking out about it, like, yeah, it's, it's pizza. But the government's like, hey, guess what we got for you?

• 2:21:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:16Speaker 03

  We got this new data coming out, this new data and. The psyops are working less because of the spread of information. So people say, oh, social media is bad. You shouldn't be on social media. Well, some of that is what's exposing this stuff.

• 2:21:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:21:31Speaker 03

  And we have people out there that are like you. And I'm not kissing your ass here, but you're willing to say shit that sounds preposterous at the beginning of something and just make an observation that's real. And you're willing to just, the way that I phrase this in a lot of our training at my training, it's called NCI. The way that we phrase this is like, the first ingredient of confidence is the willingness to receive social injury.

• 2:22:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:02Speaker 03

  And we need more of that. We need more people willing to receive social injury.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, the position that I was in during the COVID thing was very unique. So it was almost easy for me because I had already, I'd gotten such a head start. I was so far ahead of them, they didn't realize that my ability to say, wait, this, this doesn't make any sense. Like, none of this makes any sense. And also, why am I green? And also, why are you guys lying? Why are you lying about all sorts of different things? Why, why are you measuring troponin levels when you're talking about myocarditis and not the actual scans of people's hearts when you realize like, young people are getting legitimately fucked up from this vaccine? Not all of them, but some of them. Why, why aren't you looking at that? How come you guys aren't looking at vaccine injuries? It seems like a significant thing that people are talking about.

• 2:22:52Joe Rogan?

  You got soccer players dropping dead in the middle of the field and no one's bringing that up? You're trying to gaslight us into thinking that that doesn't make any sense? I was in a unique position to be able to do that because I had like, almost like, quietly snuck up to this, had this large audience that they weren't aware of.

• 2:23:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:16Joe Rogan?

  So when it happened, it was just... It was just like, I couldn't do anything other than what I did. I, I had to just keep doing it the way I did it. And it was, the blowback was crazy. They tried to crush my sponsors. They organized campaigns. There was PACs involved. It was, there was, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Thank God I was on Spotify. And thank God Spotify is not an American company. And also, it helped that I was number one in like ninety countries and not number ninety in one country. You know, that helped. That helped a lot. It, the size of it was, it was like, it was so big.

• 2:23:55Joe Rogan?

  That as big as they were, they're like, oh. Like, and then there's the Streisand thing. Like, you try to silence something. You're, you're just gonna make it bigger. If I went to, if they, it kicked me off of Spotify and I had to go to Rumble, it would've just blown Rumble's stock up and it would've, it would've helped everybody.

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I didn't know that there was that much shit going on in your life.

• 2:24:17Joe Rogan?

  I can't even talk about it, but there was presidents involved and former presidents involved that were contacting Spotify. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, trying to get me removed for vaccine misinformation. Yeah. It turned out to be right. All of it. Not a single fucking apologize.

• 2:24:35Speaker 03

  Interviewing the dude that invented mRNA.

• 2:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:24:38Speaker 03

  And the most published doctor in his field.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  Not a single apology. Not a single apology from anybody. Not, not a single retraction. Not a single, you know, mea culpa. Not a single, we were wrong.

• 2:24:50Joe Rogan?

  And, you know, I lost a lot of sponsors. I lost a lot, a lot during that, those days. It was interesting. It was, there was a, there was a time where, uh, it was working.

• 2:25:01Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:25:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:03Speaker 03

  I didn't know there was that much coordination.

• 2:25:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh, there was a lot of coordination.

• 2:25:06Speaker 03

  People are gonna be pissed off at Joe.

• 2:25:08Joe Rogan?

  I don't talk about it too much, cause it's, it's pretty, it's pretty deep. It was nuts. But it didn't work, right? But they tried. And they, they tried it out. They spent a lot of money. A lot of money. It wasn't a small amount of money. It wasn't a small amount of people. It was a lot of people and a lot of money.

• 2:25:29Speaker 03

  Good lord.

• 2:25:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That part was spooky. But, uh, the turning my face green was hilarious. That didn't bother me at all. It's also, I'm a comedian, you know what I mean? Like, I'm a shit talker. Like, that's what I do. If you talk shit to me, it's like, you're not gonna hurt my feelings that much. It's like, I'm used to it. It's normal. It's a part of the game that I play. So, you know, especially if you're doing it and there's a video that's the real video that's available for anybody that goes on my Instagram page, like, fucking retards, like, what are you?

• 2:26:01Speaker 03

  It is crazy.

• 2:26:01Joe Rogan?

  This is a stupid checker move. It's so dumb.

• 2:26:05Speaker 03

  And I think that what we see as authority hasn't changed in 200,000 years. But I think that what we consider to be social authority has been modified, just kind of in the human side of things.

• 2:26:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:20Speaker 03

  Like, it used to be, oh, this guy's got a suit and tie on. Now, all these CEOs are wearing a hoodie or a t-shirt or something.

• 2:26:28Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:28Speaker 03

  Like, the visual definition of authority's changed and the, the social definition of authority is, is starting to change now. Where it's, it used to be mainstream news and now we're moving into like a post-news era of, of something. I don't know what the next thing's gonna be.

• 2:26:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, what Elon always says is, you are the news now. And the, the, the rise of independent journalists and what you have, what, what you're selling, what, what is your currency is authenticity. And honesty.

• 2:27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:01Joe Rogan?

  And as long as you don't break from that, as long as people don't find out, oh, he's secretly getting all this money from AIPAC. He's secretly getting all this money from Russia, secretly getting all this money. And, you know, oh, there's meetings where they've had, where they've told people what narratives to push. And then you see people on Twitter that are, you know, supposedly new influencers. And then you see them almost cut and paste the exact same message over and over again. And then you find out, oh, there's actual campaigns where you're, you're paid, large sums of money. If you have a large following, large sums of money, like significant amount of money to be a person who pushes narratives online. That's your job. You are literally a paid propagandist. And once people find that out.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna lose a lot of your people that are paying attention to you, that take you seriously. But there's gonna be enough that don't know about it, that just see the tweet and like, oh my god, is that true?

• 2:27:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:58Joe Rogan?

  Like, oh my god, that's crazy. Enough casuals where you're gonna get some traction. But you have sacrificed the one thing that you need to survive in this environment. And that's authenticity and honesty. If you don't have those two things, you're fucked. Because when the mind-reading software gets uploaded and everybody knows... You and me will be alright.

• 2:28:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:24Joe Rogan?

  They'll probably look in some of our brains and go, dude, you're fucked up. But you're fucked up too. Everybody's fucked up. We're all fucked up. It's like, how do you behave? What do you do? How do you manage your fucked-up-ness? What do you do? What do you do with your time? What do you do with your life?

• 2:28:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:40Joe Rogan?

  We're gonna know. We're gonna know.

• 2:28:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:43Joe Rogan?

  And we're gonna know a lot of people online are just demons. They're just demons, like, in the real sense of the term. Like, if you thought of what... If you had a demon, and if you were a demon, if actual demons were real, what would they be doing? What would they be doing? Well, they would most certainly be trying to ruin people's lives. They would most certainly be trying to spread hate, spread misinformation, confuse people.

• 2:29:11Speaker 03

  Get you to compare yourself to other people.

• 2:29:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Destroy you psychologically, get you to take medications that you don't need.

• 2:29:18Speaker 03

  Make you think that you're not enough.

• 2:29:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Make you think you're not enough. Take money to... And sacrifice other people's health and safety just for whatever financial compensation you've got, you've been given to push a narrative.

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's demonic.

• 2:29:34Speaker 03

  And it's separation. All of that is like, you are separate from these people. They don't matter.

• 2:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:39Speaker 03

  You shouldn't care about them. You are separate. They are different things. You're not connected. You're not the same thing.

• 2:29:44Joe Rogan?

  And that's how people justify bombings.

• 2:29:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:46Joe Rogan?

  You know? That's how people justify war. That's how people justify all sorts of horrific behavior that human beings still engage in.

• 2:29:53Speaker 03

  What did George Carlin say? I think he said, "Conspiracy's not required when interests all align."

• 2:29:59Joe Rogan?

  Right. That's a great quote.

• 2:30:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:02Joe Rogan?

  That's a great quote. He had so many bangers.

• 2:30:04Speaker 03

  He said it's a big fucking club.

• 2:30:05Joe Rogan?

  Yep, and you're not in it.

• 2:30:07Speaker 03

  You're not in it.

• 2:30:07Joe Rogan?

  He had so many bangers.

• 2:30:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, he did.

• 2:30:09Joe Rogan?

  But there's a few people that are in the club. That's what's interesting, you know? There's a few people that get in that fucking club. And you know, and then also their opinions change.

• 2:30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:19Joe Rogan?

  Also, they soften up on stances. Or they get killed on a campus.

• 2:30:24Speaker 03

  Have you had somebody on your show that you thought was compromised?

• 2:30:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:30:27Speaker 03

  You have to name names, but.

• 2:30:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. I've had people on my show that I guarantee are here to try to push a narrative. Yeah, a hundred percent, no doubt. And my own, you know, my, it's, I think in some cases it's obvious. And my job is to just keep them talking and let the internet do its job.

• 2:30:47Speaker 03

  Can I teach you a tactic right now?

• 2:30:49Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:30:49Speaker 03

  That will be good for these people?

• 2:30:50Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 2:30:51Speaker 03

  All right, how much time do we have?

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  We've got time.

• 2:30:53Speaker 03

  Okay. All right, so this is a CIA method called elicitation. And it was invented by this guy, John Nolan. And so the basic premise is you're gonna get more, the more sensitive information you need out of a person, the less questions you should be asking. So here's how it works. You can get sensitive information out of people better with statements than questions. So there's, there's a few different types of these statements. So the first one is called a provocative statement. And a provocative statement is just making a commentary on what somebody said. So let's say I just went through X and Y and Z and you're like, so, so basically, and then you kind of recap what I said.

• 2:31:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:31:38Speaker 03

  And so no question, and then I'll kind of, yeah, and so I'll kind of, I'll keep giving you a little bit more information. The second is triggering a need to correct the record.

• 2:31:50Speaker 03

  So let's say you and I are in a grocery store and I say, Joe, um, let's say you don't get recognized. Let's say, go over there, I want you to, within 60 seconds, I want you to find out how much the girl that's stocking the shelf over there makes per hour.

• 2:32:06Speaker 03

  So you might go over there and go, hey, how much do you make an hour? But instantly you're weird and that feels like an interrogation, right? But if you went over there and you said, hey, I just read this article, everybody that works at Whole Foods got bumped up to $26 an hour. That's fantastic, congratulations. And she's like, what?

• 2:32:25Speaker 03

  We only make 22. And now she doesn't feel interrogated. And the answer came from correcting the record. Does that make sense?

• 2:32:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:35Speaker 03

  So now you're not a weirdo who's asking how much she makes.

• 2:32:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:38Speaker 03

  So now you got the sensitive information and it felt like it was just a flowing conversation. So the third is disbelief. So if somebody says something, and you don't get Jamie to pull up anything, but the disbelief is like, they say, oh, and I've even worked with X and Y and Z. I've done this one thing, and you're like, what? There is no way. That just sounds impossible. And then they're like, no, no, and, and they'll keep going. Because there wasn't a question. So imagine if someone started telling you something sensitive and you're like, yeah, tell me more. Tell me more about that. It seems like you're kind of wanting to pull things out. So the more that you can use statements, the more they're just gonna keep feeling completely comfortable giving you stuff.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  What's interesting is I don't know those methods, but I do all three of those.

• 2:33:25Speaker 03

  You do a lot of that stuff.

• 2:33:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:27Speaker 03

  I just wanted you to be able to consciously grab on to it.

• 2:33:29Joe Rogan?

  I just do it instinctively.

• 2:33:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've seen you do it many times.

• 2:33:34Joe Rogan?

  When I smell bullshit,

• 2:33:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:36Joe Rogan?

  my instinct is going, hold on, so what you're saying is, and you just give a touch of incredulity, just a little bit of skepticism.

• 2:33:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:46Joe Rogan?

  And then allow them to kind of like expand on it and go, okay, so you're saying that this, all right, so are you sure that that's the case? Because a lot of people think this. No, no, no. And I do it sort of naturally.

• 2:34:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:34:03Joe Rogan?

  Because the most important thing is to listen as much as possible and keep them talking. And don't interrupt too much. But sometimes you have to. Sometimes you have to, like, you're pushing, hold on, this is horseshit. Like, this is like, I'm gonna get grilled for this online if I don't like stop this right dead in its tracks because I know and you know that you're lying.

• 2:34:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:34:27Joe Rogan?

  So, let's, and then, but you also gotta like, keep them on the hook. So, like, you don't wanna submit them yet. You gotta like, oh, look, you got out of the armbar. Crazy.

• 2:34:38Speaker 03

  And a couple of those, you make them correct you. And you also say like, well, that had to be challenging. Or that sounds fascinating. And just those tiny little comments that just kinda keep them pulling along. The Russians did this to America during the Cold War. The, a submarine would pull into Singapore or Thailand or something. And one of the, some KGB guy would go up, and there's some 19-year-old sailor at a bar. And say like, well, we just, Russia already has all these specs. And it's amazing that Russian submarines are faster than US submarines. Because our propellers are 19 feet wide. And the sailor's like, yeah, ours are 21. Like, just correcting the record. Just a tiny little thing, correcting the record.

• 2:35:21Speaker 03

  And some 19-year-old kid gives away top-secret information in 35 seconds.

• 2:35:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:35:28Speaker 03

  So, that's where this stuff came about. And when you're like, if you work in the nuclear field, you have a top-secret clearance. You have to go through anti-elicitation training before you leave the country. And go spend time with some foreign national company.

• 2:35:42Joe Rogan?

  God, I hope so.

• 2:35:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you know what the number one thing, in the first day of counterintelligence school, the first thing they say is, if you're a four, and she's a 10, and she's interested in you, she's a spy.

• 2:36:00Joe Rogan?

  That is the most primal and effective of all tactics, is hot women.

• 2:36:05Speaker 03

  It is.

• 2:36:06Joe Rogan?

  And also, we see with James O'Keefe, chatty gay guys. You see a lot of like, hot guys. Yeah, you get chatty gay guys, give up a lot of data.

• 2:36:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:16Joe Rogan?

  They give up a lot of fucking information.

• 2:36:18Speaker 03

  Way more than I would ever think.

• 2:36:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it seems like the chatty gay guys are worse even than the guys that are trying to impress the women.

• 2:36:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:36:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I wonder how far they have to go. I wonder how many guys they have to sleep with.

• 2:36:31Speaker 03

  I don't wanna know.

• 2:36:31Joe Rogan?

  I wonder, I mean, for sure, there's been a straight guy or two. Unless they recruit gay guys for the job, you know?

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  Because gay guys wouldn't feel nearly as bad for having sex with another gay guy to get information out of him, I think than a woman would. A woman would feel like a whore, you know, a man who fucks some other guy that he'd probably fuck anyway.

• 2:36:58Joe Rogan?

  It's probably no big deal, you know, guys don't feel as bad about that.

• 2:37:03Speaker 03

  And have you ever read Red Queen?

• 2:37:05Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  It's about biological behavior. It talks about like adultery and females occurs during ovulation most of the time and

• 2:37:12Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:37:13Speaker 03

  Fascinating stuff in there. But one of them was that women are reluctant about sexual activity because they face the risk of raising a child alone.

• 2:37:25Speaker 03

  Uh, and it's not a conscious thing. But like there's some biological driver that says, if I am not careful here, I'm gonna be stuck with this child alone. And if I, and 200,000 years ago, if you're, if someone abandons you and you're pregnant and then you're raising a child and you're, you're kind of off the market. Uh, for, and no one's bringing you meat. No one's bringing you,

• 2:37:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:48Speaker 03

  You know, fish out of the river and all this kind of stuff. So I, I thought that was interesting and that may be one of the reasons that it's, it might be easier for dudes to go do something like that.

• 2:37:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, we'd have to ask James. There's gotta be, gotta be a reason. Well, it's also,

• 2:38:06Joe Rogan?

  I think especially in politics, there's a large amount of in the closet gay guys that are in all sorts of levels of politics, all sorts of levels of government.

• 2:38:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have no doubt.

• 2:38:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:20Speaker 03

  I think it's been that way since Rome, though.

• 2:38:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Um, well, it's a very peculiar kind of person in the first place that wants to control all the other people.

• 2:38:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, you know, the difference between today and Rome is the concealment of the shame about it. And I think most people don't know the difference between shame and guilt. I think that shame is a destructive force. There's nothing good about it. There's nothing positive about it. Um, guilt is focused on understanding the behavior. And shame is focused on the person, the identity of the person who did it. And there's nothing productive like beating the shit out of yourself emotionally. Does not make the other person who you've harmed any better.

• 2:39:04Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:39:04Speaker 03

  It doesn't make the world any better. It's, it's down. I made a video on my YouTube channel. Basically, giving a review and a tutorial of Planet Earth as if it was a video game. And like.

• 2:39:16Joe Rogan?

  What's that video called?

• 2:39:18Speaker 03

  Uh, I think it's called Earth is a Game.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:39:21Speaker 03

  So it's basically like a 20 minute, like, I'm, without breaking character, like, I'm giving a review. I'm actually in the game right now and I'm making a tutorial and a review of this video game that we call Earth. And one of the things I said in the video is like, the developers don't tell you like what the main goals are of the game. Like, how do I get on the leaderboard? What's the way that, how do you win? And we went through like 10 different metrics, but at the end of the day, I think what gets you on the leaderboard is, were you an upward force on most people's lives that you encountered? Did you leave people better than you found them? That's about it. That's about fucking it.

• 2:40:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:40:04Speaker 03

  It's like, am I a downward force on other people? Am I pushing people down constantly? Or am I just doing something else? And you remember like, the moment you launch into DMT, you're like, oh my God, I was worried about taxes?

• 2:40:21Speaker 03

  I'm 17 black holes away and I was worried about my I-9 form or something. I thought that was such a big deal. And it's the same thing that people, like, I think if you want to learn the number one, and this is my, my rambling, but the number one lesson I think most people can learn is from people that are dying. People on their deathbed, there's no better book you could read about how to, how to master this game, about how to get good at Earth, is reading the regrets of dying people. Because there's so much clarity at, at these moments where you know you're gonna die, like, oh my God, I thought all this shit. I thought that Lexus, I thought I had to get the Lexus. I had to impress everybody at the country club who didn't give a shit about me. And I didn't spend time with my grandkids. I didn't spend time with my kids.

• 2:41:05Speaker 03

  Like, everything gets so crystal clear in those moments that I think those are the best books in the world. Like, you read, I think there's a lot of nurses that work in hospice that write, and like, collect a lot of these things. And it's just. So much perspective on what we think is so important and then at that moment like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I prioritized all that shit."

• 2:41:25Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely. I think this is the perfect way to end this.

• 2:41:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, man.

• 2:41:28Joe Rogan?

  That was awesome. Thank you very much. Okay, so, um, Station One, is that what it is?

• 2:41:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:33Joe Rogan?

  Channel One or Station One?

• 2:41:34Speaker 03

  Station One.

• 2:41:34Joe Rogan?

  Station One on YouTube.

• 2:41:36Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:41:36Joe Rogan?

  And then your show is, what's the channel?

• 2:41:39Speaker 03

  Or Chase Hughes on YouTube.

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Chase Hughes and Station One.

• 2:41:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  Thank you very much, man. Really appreciate it.

• 2:41:44Speaker 03

  Thanks, Joe.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  It's awesome. It's really, really good stuff.

• 2:41:46Speaker 03

  Thanks, man.

• 2:41:47Joe Rogan?

  Thank you. Alright, bye, everybody.