Create True Belonging & Heal The World w/ Brené Brown EP 1420

Brené Brown is a researcher, storyteller, and (currently enraged) Texan who’s spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy.https://lewishowes.com/mindset - Order a copy of my new book The Greatness Mindset today! In this episode you will learn,What belonging truly meansWhat makes people complexWhat every parent needs to know about when their kids grow upFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1420 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Your mindset is everything. And our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and a book I'm glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well over there also.

• 1:10Brené Brown?

  No one wants to be vulnerable, and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that. Vulnerability is, it's uncertainty, it's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do. Here's a thing that has changed everything for me.

• 1:24Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to today's special episode. Over the last 1,300-plus episodes, there have been so many impactful interviews that I've been lucky enough to have, and I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful. And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past, and I'm excited for the value it's going to bring you today as well. So I hope you enjoy today's episode.

• 2:13Brené Brown?

  The one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. You know, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in 8th grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it, it was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So, I think that, I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know, I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed, because I don't think it is what we think it is.

• 2:54Brené Brown?

  You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends, or having a crew, or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out, because I still feel lonely and alone, and on the outside of things, on a really regular basis.

• 3:11Lewis Howes?

  Really? I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, 15-city tour, millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone.

• 3:19Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I can feel really lonely.

• 3:21Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 3:22Brené Brown?

  And it's really hard, because, you know, you talk about that book tour, I'm severely introverted.

• 3:26Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 3:27Brené Brown?

  Super private. And so, I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one, it's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes, and we laugh, and we have fun, and we'll sing, but um, I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging, is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone, and to belong to yourself, above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself, and sometimes that makes other

• 4:11Brené Brown?

  people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like, I want to find the researcher storyteller...

• 4:28Brené Brown?

  Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well. But there's not really a blueprint sometimes.

• 4:44Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out. We're all trying to figure it out.

• 4:46Brené Brown?

  I don't get to copy anybody and so it's hard.

• 4:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Brené Brown?

  It's still hard, but here's a thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me.

• 4:59Brené Brown?

  So even when I feel alone and I wonder like who's my crew and who are my people,

• 5:06Brené Brown?

  I belong to me for sure, for the first time in my life, maybe.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in.

• 5:14Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Lewis Howes?

  You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest and I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did in the, uh, that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like I didn't want to not say anything, you know, I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong.

• 5:43Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone and that was my biggest fear was being alone.

• 5:48Brené Brown?

  Oh yeah, because that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone.

• 5:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:56Brené Brown?

  The problem is there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are and true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are because if we, if we, if we fit in, because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging.

• 6:27Brené Brown?

  That's not belonging, because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you start to lose yourself.

• 6:36Brené Brown?

  You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said, and so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are.

• 6:42Lewis Howes?

  How do we find out who we are?

• 6:44Brené Brown?

  That's the life's work, right? That's frickin' hard.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  Do you know who you are?

• 6:50Brené Brown?

  Uh, yeah, I do.

• 6:52Lewis Howes?

  Who are you?

• 6:54Brené Brown?

  Uh, in what way?

• 6:56Lewis Howes?

  If, if someone just said, "Who are you, Brene?", what would you say?

• 7:00Brené Brown?

  Uh, Brene Brown.

• 7:05Brené Brown?

  Mom, partner, researcher storyteller, Texan.

• 7:13Brené Brown?

  I don't know, I ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in. But I'm a complicated person.

• 7:25Lewis Howes?

  Are you?

• 7:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and so I think I know who I am.

• 7:28Lewis Howes?

  What makes you complicated?

• 7:30Brené Brown?

  I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex.

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  You're interesting.

• 7:35Brené Brown?

  I hope so.

• 7:37Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 7:37Brené Brown?

  Some days, yeah, some days, no.

• 7:38Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 7:39Brené Brown?

  You know, I think what makes me complex is, I think what makes everyone complex, is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public, I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted.

• 7:53Brené Brown?

  I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. Uh, my kids say, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am", but I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it.

• 8:05Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 8:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah, so I think I'm, um, I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good.

• 8:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:20Brené Brown?

  And so...

• 8:23Brené Brown?

  I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull.

• 8:30Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 8:31Brené Brown?

  And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined.

• 8:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, I think that's.

• 8:35Brené Brown?

  Do you?

• 8:36Lewis Howes?

  I, I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, you're gonna be this jock in college, you're gonna be like this alcoholic, you're gonna be in the frats.

• 8:45Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Lewis Howes?

  All my siblings said this to me. And I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings, a hundred dollars each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Cause I was like, I want to go against everything you think I'm gonna be.

• 8:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Lewis Howes?

  I joined the school musical because they were like, you're just gonna do sports. I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced. I was like, I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man, right?

• 9:08Brené Brown?

  That's awesome.

• 9:08Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I want to be different.

• 9:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 9:10Lewis Howes?

  And I think in that process, I was like, trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me.

• 9:17Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Lewis Howes?

  Uh, as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think.

• 9:23Brené Brown?

  You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  It's true. Trying to go against it all, sure, yeah.

• 9:30Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, it's the thing that,

• 9:34Brené Brown?

  it's a, it's a quote that is, braving the wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that you're, we're never free until we belong nowhere, which, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all. Which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And she says, the, the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think,

• 9:58Brené Brown?

  I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go. No, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself.

• 10:12Brené Brown?

  And the minute I become who you want me to be. In order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard.

• 10:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Brené Brown?

  I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice.

• 10:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 10:28Brené Brown?

  Yeah, cuz I can, I can be whoever you want me to be like that.

• 10:31Lewis Howes?

  You're like a chameleon, you said.

• 10:32Brené Brown?

  Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like, sometimes it's really funny cuz like, I always, cuz I travel so much, I have all these miles. I always sit in business class and I'm normally the only woman in business class. And every now and then, there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too.

• 10:46Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 10:48Brené Brown?

  But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person like. And it's so funny because we'll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics and he'll say, "What do you do?" And I'll say, "Study vulnerability and shame." "Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some Angry Birds."

• 11:11Brené Brown?

  You know, and right that moment, like, I can just, and it's, it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just...

• 11:18Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying most men don't wanna chime in and learn more about that?

• 11:20Brené Brown?

  No, that's usually, if I wanna go to sleep, I'm like, "I'm a shame researcher. What do you do?" And he's like, "Okay." But I think I can be anything, like...

• 11:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're adaptable.

• 11:31Brené Brown?

  I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great cuz, because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.

• 11:39Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 11:39Brené Brown?

  But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting, is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. Yeah.

• 11:48Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?

• 11:55Brené Brown?

  High school.

• 11:59Lewis Howes?

  Just the whole journey?

• 12:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it just sucked.

• 12:01Lewis Howes?

  It does suck.

• 12:02Brené Brown?

  It does, and you know, my daughter just graduated from high school and she had this amazing experience. You know, just, just incredible experience and it was so healing to watch.

• 12:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 12:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and, you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid...

• 12:38Brené Brown?

  Wrong, it doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?

• 12:49Lewis Howes?

  Because they felt safe coming back, no matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.

• 12:52Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my, in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader, or you were on the drill team, and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate, or those kind of things.

• 13:24Lewis Howes?

  Newspaper.

• 13:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah, oh, for sure, yeah, yeah, photographer for the yearbook.

• 13:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Brené Brown?

  But those things did not have a lot of value.

• 13:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:31Brené Brown?

  Not, no.

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile?

• 13:35Brené Brown?

  No, it's just, I, cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular.

• 13:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:44Brené Brown?

  And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't, and so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, you know, that just goes bad fast.

• 14:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 14:01Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?

• 14:03Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  You have?

• 14:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Lewis Howes?

  You've let it go, you've processed it all?

• 14:07Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them, and they're, you know, they're like, this is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher. But, no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents, like, my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is, it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like, they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 14:38Brené Brown?

  No, no, no, no, like, yeah, like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips, you're in the car for five hours, it's all six of us, you really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway, we're not pulling over, like, suck it up, hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt, you know, my dad would say like, "I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball." You know, like, you know, yeah, like, we were tough. And so, and we were, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability.

• 15:11Brené Brown?

  We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.

• 15:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Brené Brown?

  And so, however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  Was he able to process that, or no?

• 15:30Brené Brown?

  No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

• 15:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:36Brené Brown?

  My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at our, at her house growing up. Because it was the 50s, and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team, and the, you know, the valedictorian. And, and so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so, I don't have...

• 16:20Brené Brown?

  I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life, where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did. As opposed to my parents, who lean in and say, "Tell me more about that." Tell, I have a funny story, we hear a funny story about my dad, yeah, it's great. So, we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so, choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So, like, we, we know a lot about child development from our, just from school.

• 16:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:48Brené Brown?

  And so, when, when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, um, you know, you have two choices. Like, Louis, you have two choices, you can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you, what is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me, and I have to take it... It's not my fault. That was your choice, right? And so, one night I was talking to Ellen and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio and I was like, "Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed." And she's like, "Mm-mm." And I said, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV or I'm gonna get it up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow."

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  And that's your choice.

• 17:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's your choice. So, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me and he's like, "What are you raising, a hostage negotiator?" And I was like, "Dad?" And he's like, "Seriously, Renee?" We had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that.

• 17:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Brené Brown?

  So, the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio and he's watching Ellen. And he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio and he's sweating. He's like, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice." So, I was like, "Wow, you're so close."

• 17:59Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 18:00Brené Brown?

  You're getting there, but...

• 18:01Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 18:01Brené Brown?

  My parents are amazing in that way that like, they're learning and changing. So, I think it's harder when parents say, "I'm done."

• 18:12Brené Brown?

  What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no amends. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker.

• 18:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:21Brené Brown?

  And I think we see that a lot.

• 18:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do.

• 18:25Lewis Howes?

  I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware, because I think it starts with being aware...

• 18:32Brené Brown?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  Of what they know and what they don't know and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. I think once you've had these habits for so long, I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at?

• 18:53Brené Brown?

  I believe, this with my, my whole heart, I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have.

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:04Brené Brown?

  I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up... And maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield.

• 19:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:29Brené Brown?

  You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers in the hundreds, if not thousands of fathers I've interviewed that said, I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable.

• 19:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Brené Brown?

  I put him down. I made fun of him. I hit him every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised, or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school. Or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission to not have, I'm not perfect. Like, you know, like I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy.

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:12Brené Brown?

  And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kinds of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it, or kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who'll ask for help.

• 20:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I never asked for help.

• 20:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  I was always suffering inside.

• 20:27Brené Brown?

  Yeah, right.

• 20:28Lewis Howes?

  And I always felt shameful, guilty, and I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports.

• 20:36Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 20:37Lewis Howes?

  Or outside of sports, because that's all I knew. I remember being picked last on a, on a team once when it was a coed sport. We were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there's two captains, two guys. And they were picking one at a time, right?

• 20:51Brené Brown?

  Oh, God, brutal.

• 20:52Lewis Howes?

  They pick all the guys.

• 20:53Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the last guy chosen.

• 20:55Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  But then they go and pick all the girls. And then, then I'm gonna pick my name, I'm just by default the last pickers team. And so as a, as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in, in third, fourth grade, was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport.

• 21:15Brené Brown?

  I'll do whatever it takes.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  I am going to be a machine. I'm gonna train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just, I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again.

• 21:30Brené Brown?

  And did you ever get picked last again?

• 21:31Lewis Howes?

  Never got picked last again.

• 21:32Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 21:33Lewis Howes?

  But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was all state in multiple sports. Was all American in two sports. I broke world records. I play professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I achieved them. Or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had in a sport, it was like my life was at stake. And I felt like I was worthless. Because if I didn't win,

• 22:02Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Lewis Howes?

  That meant no one was gonna accept me, or I wasn't good enough, or I was gonna be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning, you know, I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay, or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy growing up for me. And so it's very, I think it's very hard for me, and especially for a lot of men who grew up, to stand alone. And feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone? When we're not introverted?

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  Or we want to be around other people? How do we? And how can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable?

• 22:55Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Lewis Howes?

  We were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know, played sports with, would never watch The Power of Vulnerability TED Talk, or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of. Because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.

• 23:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:12Lewis Howes?

  You know, they would say, "That's soft. That's weak."

• 23:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:15Lewis Howes?

  "I don't watch that stuff. I don't read that stuff." And really, that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion.

• 23:20Brené Brown?

  And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men, and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.

• 23:31Lewis Howes?

  Wise men.

• 23:32Brené Brown?

  I can, huh, I hope, I can flip it for you on a dime.

• 23:36Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 23:38Brené Brown?

  So it used to take me, when men would, when men would say, this is how the call would go, "Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk. We thought it was great. Are you available?" And I'd say, "Sure. What do you want me to talk about?" And they'd say, "Anything but vulnerability and shame." And I would say...

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 23:57Brené Brown?

  "So what do you want me to talk about?" If I don't talk about vulnerability. And they'd say, "Courage." And then I'd say, "Okay." Then I would try to spend like a half an hour, explain the relationship between vulnerability and courage.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Brené Brown?

  Because all men want to be brave.

• 24:08Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability courage?

• 24:10Brené Brown?

  Vulnerability is courage. So I only have to ask...

• 24:12Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability power?

• 24:12Brené Brown?

  Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing. It's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in, or that you've ever even witnessed, that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question because I know the answer is no. Because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've, I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces Military Personnel and said, "Give me an example. I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability." And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said,

• 24:57Brené Brown?

  "We're going to think about it and get with you."

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  They never got back to you?

• 25:00Brené Brown?

  "Oh, my God." I said, "Do it. I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field."

• 25:08Brené Brown?

  That doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you, if it, if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave.

• 25:18Lewis Howes?

  It's too safe?

• 25:18Brené Brown?

  Yeah, if you know how it's gonna turn out, it's not courage. No one wants to be uncomfortable.

• 25:24Brené Brown?

  No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that.

• 25:28Lewis Howes?

  Right. And anytime we try something new, we've gotta, we've gotta be uncomfortable.

• 25:31Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerable.

• 25:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's vulnerable.

• 25:33Brené Brown?

  I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability? People would say initiating sex with my wife.

• 25:39Brené Brown?

  Sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra. And knowing he's probably not gonna make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying I love you first in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do.

• 26:05Brené Brown?

  And so, the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak. And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable. What we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations. Give hard feedback, receive hard feedback. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage.

• 26:45Brené Brown?

  Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, choose courage over comfort. Cause you can't have both. And if you're, think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  This is fascinating, you're saying this because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through.

• 27:01Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Lewis Howes?

  I got a breakup with a girlfriend. Like I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss.

• 27:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  Of any type of pain or suffering.

• 27:08Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Lewis Howes?

  As a man, and I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up on a ball. Because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone. And I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't wanna feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people?

• 27:34Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Lewis Howes?

  To get it out. And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field like inflicting pain on other people because you're supposed to.

• 27:45Brené Brown?

  No, and I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain.

• 27:49Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to feel it.

• 27:51Brené Brown?

  No, you don't. And so we cause it and we hurt other people.

• 27:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do.

• 27:54Brené Brown?

  And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're in an organization, leading a country, leading a family, as a parent, one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your misery. And so we have to really watch that in our country right now. So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and give them a reason to blame them. And then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country.

• 28:35Brené Brown?

  And so we have to push away the rhetoric, you know, we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception, is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now, across, you know, somewhere, beginning with physicians, sent the message, there's no reason for you to hurt at all.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Here's a pain reliever.

• 29:14Brené Brown?

  Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life, well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better, like.

• 29:22Lewis Howes?

  By drinking or by smoking or sex or whatever.

• 29:26Brené Brown?

  Medicated, addicted, in debt and obese Americans in history.

• 29:32Brené Brown?

  Like, our tolerance for discomfort is zero.

• 29:36Lewis Howes?

  Soft.

• 29:37Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah. So here's the irony. Soft.

• 29:40Lewis Howes?

  What we're taught in football, don't be soft.

• 29:43Brené Brown?

  Don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable.

• 29:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Brené Brown?

  That makes us weak.

• 29:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I talk about and try to express as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to, where I'm like emotionally want to cry.

• 30:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 30:05Lewis Howes?

  Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day, that when a lot of stuff comes my way, I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions as opposed to being like, I just need a drink. I need this, I need that. I mean, I've never been drunk in my life, so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man. It's hard growing up, learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, okay, when you're feeling this way, Louis, here's how you're supposed to act.

• 30:37Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerability.

• 30:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like, there's no process that we're taught unless it's our parents or we seek it out.

• 30:47Brené Brown?

  And it's not modeled because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men.

• 30:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:56Brené Brown?

  Who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his seventies and I said, what a shame to you. And he's like, shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers.

• 31:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:07Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 31:08Lewis Howes?

  Shame is being the kid that you shove up.

• 31:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers.

• 31:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Brené Brown?

  You know, and it's like,

• 31:16Brené Brown?

  but really,

• 31:21Brené Brown?

  we've got to shift it and we've got to shift it. I think it starts parenting, school. Athletics is huge.

• 31:27Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 31:28Brené Brown?

  I mean, it's a really, I mean, let me, let me, let me do this. Okay, this is to the sports thing.

• 31:33Lewis Howes?

  Do it.

• 31:33Brené Brown?

  Okay, ready? Okay.

• 31:37Brené Brown?

  Two football teams. You're gonna place a bet.

• 31:40Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 31:41Brené Brown?

  Both of them have hurt quarterbacks.

• 31:44Brené Brown?

  Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability. It's gonna put in a second string quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on?

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, depends on the injury.

• 32:01Brené Brown?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 32:02Lewis Howes?

  Hey, because I played hurt my whole life, you know.

• 32:05Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I would say that most of us would say you are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as. So even if you play your quarterback.

• 32:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:15Brené Brown?

  You gotta make sure your line is ready.

• 32:17Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, and you gotta switch the plays up.

• 32:18Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 32:18Lewis Howes?

  If his arm's hurt, you're gonna pass it off.

• 32:20Brené Brown?

  You're gonna pass off, right.

• 32:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 32:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah, give him more time in the hole, whatever you're gonna do.

• 32:24Lewis Howes?

  The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities.

• 32:25Brené Brown?

  Is gonna be more successful.

• 32:26Lewis Howes?

  And is adaptable to change.

• 32:28Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 32:28Lewis Howes?

  Is gonna be more successful.

• 32:29Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 32:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 32:30Brené Brown?

  Right, so why do we think as men to pretend like you're not vulnerable? Makes you the most vulnerable.

• 32:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:39Brené Brown?

  Makes you the most susceptible.

• 32:42Brené Brown?

  I mean, we just have data, I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data about. You don't get to opt out, let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world, you know, a lot of guys, right? Who can say, I've existed this point in my life without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed?

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 33:03Brené Brown?

  Right, you can't not do vulnerability, but you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable.

• 33:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:12Brené Brown?

  Then you don't know when you're vulnerable, and then you're acting nutty.

• 33:17Lewis Howes?

  And I think you pay major prices.

• 33:19Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:20Lewis Howes?

  When you don't, when you aren't aware, or when you're not acting like you're aware.

• 33:23Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Lewis Howes?

  You just act like everything's fine, or you don't need help, you don't need support, you don't even address the situation, or.

• 33:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Lewis Howes?

  Grieve, or whatever it is.

• 33:31Brené Brown?

  No.

• 33:32Lewis Howes?

  That's when you get hurt the most.

• 33:34Brené Brown?

  It's when you get hurt the most.

• 33:35Lewis Howes?

  When you suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage.

• 33:39Brené Brown?

  Rage.

• 33:39Lewis Howes?

  And, um, I guess, divergence happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. The person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys who was like the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. It just blows my mind. It's like-

• 34:08Brené Brown?

  Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here-

• 34:10Lewis Howes?

  Who were here.

• 34:11Brené Brown?

  Before we took it.

• 34:12Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feeling like we need to belong, I guess, to and protect what was ours or what's our rights, something.

• 34:23Brené Brown?

  It all comes back to identity and belonging.

• 34:25Lewis Howes?

  Belonging, yeah.

• 34:26Brené Brown?

  But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about and it comes, it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over's last stand.

• 34:39Lewis Howes?

  And that's what I love talking, you write about how I think most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person, one group can have the power as opposed to we can spread the power-

• 34:48Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Lewis Howes?

  Throughout the world.

• 34:50Brené Brown?

  Like it's a pepperoni pizza.

• 34:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:51Brené Brown?

  Like if I give Louis a little power, I'm gonna have less, so make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you-

• 34:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:58Brené Brown?

  When it's not.

• 34:59Lewis Howes?

  Don't give any slices away.

• 35:00Brené Brown?

  Don't give slices away. Hold all the, and so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand. And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to, power with each other, collective power. The things that are killing us right now, we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation. They're global issues. We need global solutions. We need everyone at the table for them.

• 35:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Brené Brown?

  But that is really, I mean, we are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood. I mean, for the first time ever, the problems that challenge us, us, challenge us the most are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are global problems.

• 35:59Brené Brown?

  That require global solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of people, that's really scary.

• 36:07Lewis Howes?

  Hard.

• 36:07Brené Brown?

  Hard, hard. What about us? What about me? You know, um, and last stands, you know about last stands. Last stands are violent.

• 36:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:17Brené Brown?

  Last, last stands are fueled by desperation.

• 36:20Lewis Howes?

  Whatever it takes.

• 36:21Brené Brown?

  And fear and whatever it takes.

• 36:23Lewis Howes?

  Risking it all.

• 36:23Brené Brown?

  Risking it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all.

• 36:28Lewis Howes?

  If you had a, uh,

• 36:31Lewis Howes?

  a microphone and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world within 60 seconds or less, and all the men were to put on headphones and hear a message from you.

• 36:47Brené Brown?

  It's very Orwellian. I like it.

• 36:48Lewis Howes?

  And you got one chance to say something to these men from all over the world, and they could all understand English and they understood you.

• 36:56Brené Brown?

  You're taking care of all the logistics.

• 36:57Lewis Howes?

  All the logistics. They got it on. It's not fuzzy. There's no wifi signal. Everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men and all the women are actually standing by listening as well. What would you say to all the men of the world in general?

• 37:17Brené Brown?

  Golly, um, you know, I wouldn't want to screw that up. Let me think. Um, yeah.

• 37:26Brené Brown?

  I think I would say

• 37:31Brené Brown?

  that vulnerability is not weakness.

• 37:35Brené Brown?

  It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage.

• 37:44Brené Brown?

  So

• 37:47Brené Brown?

  show up

• 37:50Brené Brown?

  in an authentic way

• 37:53Brené Brown?

  and let us see your hearts.

• 37:56Brené Brown?

  Because we know how lonely you actually are.

• 37:59Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, wow.

• 38:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, men are lonely. I mean, it's, it's, it's really, men are lonely, it's really hard.

• 38:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:09Brené Brown?

  But I, I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women as either. You know, because I think there is certainly, you know, for women, the greatest shame trigger is

• 38:23Brené Brown?

  do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect.

• 38:27Lewis Howes?

  In all areas.

• 38:28Brené Brown?

  In all areas, yeah. Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. And so

• 38:35Lewis Howes?

  So easy, right?

• 38:35Brené Brown?

  Right, it is. I don't, I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. But, uh, I think

• 38:45Brené Brown?

  so it's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect.

• 38:50Brené Brown?

  You know?

• 38:52Lewis Howes?

  You mean women aren't wearing masks?

• 38:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 38:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and it's terrible because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome and, you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And, you know, you do this and this is our contract and we're both in straitjackets till we die. Yeah, and so like

• 39:22Lewis Howes?

  How do we remove those jackets?

• 39:24Brené Brown?

  We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest.

• 39:29Brené Brown?

  And we see each other. You know, we really see each other.

• 39:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, wow.

• 39:38Lewis Howes?

  I've got a few minutes left, so I'm gonna be mindful of these questions.

• 39:42Brené Brown?

  I know, let's go now, let's cut it.

• 39:44Lewis Howes?

  I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?

• 39:55Brené Brown?

  Oh, I have moments for sure. Like, I will have moments of...

• 40:01Brené Brown?

  But now I know. I mean, it's, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough. When that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, "You're stupid or you're not yet." Now when it washes over me, I'm like, "Okay, I'm in shame. Don't talk, text, or type." What happened? So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it.

• 40:33Brené Brown?

  I still have triggers around it. I still think it's probably the same. Motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be, and that's still hard sometimes. You know?

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage?

• 40:49Brené Brown?

  Well, shame is, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to someone, talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. So if you really, if you, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet. Don't talk, text, or type to anyone, because the first, one of the things we want to do is push that shit out on other people.

• 41:09Lewis Howes?

  I'm good at that.

• 41:10Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  I'm guilty of that.

• 41:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah, no, yeah. So just get into a dark, quiet place and then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. Just be like, "Dude, it's okay. Like, you screwed this up. You, what you said was super hurtful. You're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up. But give yourself a break here." Just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake. Then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, "Oh my God, Louis, I'm in a shame shitstorm. You're not gonna believe what happened." And you listen to me and you respond empathically, or empathetically, with something like, "Oh my God, I've been there," or, "Oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks." Shame can't hold on, because shame can't survive empathy.

• 41:56Lewis Howes?

  I 100% agree with that. A quick example. For 25 years, I had on to this shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this about me... You know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and

• 42:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 42:12Lewis Howes?

  Um, you know, abused I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. Like, I can talk about it openly and freely without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable. Because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like rate, react to rage because I can just share it. And I can communicate as opposed to

• 42:42Brené Brown?

  It's so brave.

• 42:42Lewis Howes?

  Hold into this.

• 42:43Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 42:44Lewis Howes?

  And um, I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now, I just say, well, how can I talk about it? At least, how can I journal? I like to journal first.

• 42:52Brené Brown?

  Oh, that's huge.

• 42:53Lewis Howes?

  So no one can shame me, right?

• 42:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's huge.

• 42:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore.

• 43:02Brené Brown?

  I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, um, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys.

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  One in six.

• 43:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate. They think that that

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  No, one in six is what's known.

• 43:16Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think it's probably double that

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:19Brené Brown?

  because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it.

• 43:24Lewis Howes?

  I never told anyone.

• 43:25Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 43:25Lewis Howes?

  My parents didn't know.

• 43:26Brené Brown?

  Right. So, so here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So when, so two choices. You own your story. You get to write the ending. You don't own the story. The story owns you.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Brené Brown?

  So then you talk about it now. So shame can't hold on. But then people see and hear you talking about it. And it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that deflates shame. It takes it out of the air.

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:58Brené Brown?

  It's like filtering poison out of water.

• 44:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Brené Brown?

  Because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works. Is that we own our story, or it owns us.

• 44:12Lewis Howes?

  Final two questions. This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, the three truths. You've written many books, you know, all number one New York Times bestsellers. Let's imagine it's your last day, many, many years from now. You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video, interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do.

• 44:37Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 44:38Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information.

• 44:43Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 44:43Lewis Howes?

  And you're there with all the people you care about. And you have a piece of paper and a pen. And you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you?

• 45:00Brené Brown?

  Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves, for sure.

• 45:13Brené Brown?

  After that, everything seems small.

• 45:29Brené Brown?

  Love takes courage. Be brave, let yourself be seen.

• 45:35Brené Brown?

  And...

• 45:42Brené Brown?

  Don't wait for the grownups to get there. It's, that's, that's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea and answer, go for it.

• 45:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 45:53Lewis Howes?

  That's cool, that's cool.

• 45:54Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Lewis Howes?

  Uh, before I ask the final question.

• 45:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Lewis Howes?

  Uh, I want to make sure you guys go get the book.

• 45:59Brené Brown?

  I'm scared for the final one, but cut. Let's go, wrap it up.

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  The final question's easy, uh, but this is, uh, "Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone." Make sure you guys go get this book. It's gonna be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer and, uh, I just know this is gonna serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. Um, and I want to acknowledge you, Brene, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things, the way you've been doing them for years, decades, you've been opening up and talking about it.

• 46:44Lewis Howes?

  And to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's

• 46:56Lewis Howes?

  pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine.

• 47:03Brené Brown?

  It's a lot sometimes.

• 47:04Lewis Howes?

  The weight that you get to carry and are, you know, privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such, um, inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do.

• 47:29Brené Brown?

  Oh, thank you.

• 47:30Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome, you're welcome. Uh, this is the final question.

• 47:33Brené Brown?

  That's amazing.

• 47:34Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome. It's my pleasure, yeah. The final question is simple. It's what's your definition of greatness?

• 47:41Brené Brown?

  To own your story and love yourself through that process. That's greatness to me.

• 47:45Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 48:29Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.