Coaches' Corner: Working Out And Working In

Working out offers a healthy path towards self-actualization. But it can also be used to avoid ‘working in’, perpetuating denial of that which must be confronted. What’s the difference between the two? Ask Chris Hauth + Caroline Burckle and they’ll both agree: the answer is intention. Over the last few years, it’s been a tradition to host periodic performance fitness deep dives with my long-time coach, Olympian, former professional triathlete, and fellow endurance fanatic Chris Hauth in a series erstwhile referred to as Coach’s Corner. Unfortunately, the pandemic derailed the regularity of this institution, our last observance of this sacred ritual conducted exactly one year ago on Zoom. In apologetic atonement for this grievous oversight, today we restore balance to the Universe, graced with the presence of not one but two Olympians because Chris and myself are joined by Caroline Burckle—an audience favorite many of you will fondly recall from RRP #565 this past December. For those new to the show, Chris is a sub-9 hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic Swimmer, a veteran of many an ultra-endurance challenge, my ÖTILLÖ Swimrun World Championship teammate, and one of the world’s most respected endurance coaches. Caroline (Burks) is a former swimmer & Olympic medalist with 23 All American titles, 2 NCAA individual victories & NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year accolades to her name. She runs RISE, a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young elite athletes for support and guidance. This is a super fun round table discussion on how to bring purpose and intention to our strength and endurance goals. It’s about how to create opportunities for personal growth, resilience, and the adaptability that athletic performance and this pandemic present and demand. It’s about the power of self-curated adventures in lieu of formal competition. It’s about what sport can teach us about patience, self-love, and discipline. And it’s about showing up and doing not only the physical work but also the internal work. In other words, it’s not just about working out. It’s also about working in. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll595 Apple Podcasts: bit.ly/rrpitunes Chris & Caroline are two of my favorite people. But the combo is over the top. This union is so charmed, what was once dubbed Coach’s Corner is now rebranded as Coaches’ Corner. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:04Chris Hauth?

  The training is a scaffolding. What happens inside that scaffolding is unique to everybody. I might be doing a lot of mental work. Other people might be doing physical work. Other people are doing spiritual work. The training sets up the opportunity every day to spend time with yourself. And you might not want to go in that day. You might just sort of, you know, do the little paint job. But other days, you're like knocking down walls, and you are doing some serious work inside, and the tears come, or the aha moment comes, and you're like, wow, I hadn't realized how badly I'm avoiding. But again, I think it's important that curiosity sets up the training, the scaffolding, so

• 1:49Chris Hauth?

  that you have an opportunity every day, or every few days if you're not training every day, to sort of do that, working in and working out.

• 1:57Caroline Burckle?

  For sure. And I'm gonna throw another thought in here. The power of what people experience through their bodies that they're not listening to. Those things tell me what I'm avoiding. So that can be a cue into kind of what's happening. And I think there's a lot of intellectual athletes and then there's a lot of somatic and sensory athletes. And I think speaking to both in this space, like if I can speak to the sensory side where it's like you feel something off, don't ignore that. Tap into that and go into that and understand where am I sitting right now? Am I avoiding or am I actually doing something because I want to? Or, you know, what is my why? Back to that question again.

• 2:39Caroline Burckle?

  I think a lot of people use that as information and it is a powerful tool that I think we forget and we quickly try to jump to the mind and like what it is that we just know how to do and what we've heard and like what other people are doing. So really getting to know ourselves because like what works for one person may not work for the other.

• 2:58Rich Roll?

  That's Chris Hauth and Caroline Burckle and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 3:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. What's up, citizens? Welcome to the podcast. I am the guy behind it. So over the last few years, as most of you know, I've had a kind of tradition here of hosting periodic performance, fitness, deep dives. And I've been doing this with my longtime coach, Olympian, former professional triathlete and fellow endurance fanatic, Chris Hauth. It's a series, a popular one at that, that we have erstwhile referred to as Coach's Corner. Unfortunately, I permitted the pandemic to kind of upend this institution.

• 3:55Rich Roll?

  In fact, our last observance of this sacred ritual was essentially a year ago in April of 2020, conducted on Zoom. However, in apologetic atonement for this grievous oversight, today, we restore balance to the universe. And we do it in high fashion, I might add, graced with the presence of not one, but two Olympians because Chris and myself are joined by Caroline Burckle, an audience favorite many of you will fondly recall from episode 565 this past December. For the sake of brevity, I'll spare the full bios, other than to quickly mention

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  for context that Chris is a sub-nine-hour Ironman champion, a former Olympic swimmer, a veteran of many, an ultra endurance challenge. He was my Otillo Swim Run World Championship teammate, and now, today, he's one of the world's most respected endurance coaches. Burks is a former Olympic swimmer and Olympic medalist with 23 All-American titles, two NCAA individual victories. She was also named NCAA Female Swimmer of the Year. Today, Burks runs RISE, which is a mentor program that pairs Olympic athletes with young, elite

• 5:14Rich Roll?

  athletes for guidance. This episode is so good, for reasons that will soon become apparent. Pretty sure that Burks cemented a permanent seat for all future Coach's Corner episodes, which is great, and it's all coming up really quick. But first...

• 5:41Rich Roll?

  Okay, so, this one is a little bit of everything, among the many things discussed in general terms. This is a conversation about bringing purpose and intention to our strength and endurance goals. It's also about the opportunity for personal growth, for resilience, for adaptability, that athletic performance, or the pursuit of athletic performance, as well as this pandemic presents and demands from all of us. Put bluntly, it's not just about working out. It's really about working in. I don't need to tell you that Chris and

• 6:25Rich Roll?

  Caroline are two of my favorite people, but the combination of the two of them together, or the three of us all told, it is really just over the top. So, without further ado, let the coaching session begin.

• 6:42Rich Roll?

  We're off to an amazing start.

• 6:45Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, did we start?

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  We're starting. Donner Party 2.

• 6:49Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Rich Roll?

  Have we all three been together in the same place at the same time since then? I don't think so.

• 6:54Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  No.

• 6:55Caroline Burckle?

  This is the first time.

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  Obviously, seen both you guys separately, but yeah, we did that podcast up in Donner when we were training for Say It. Can you say it?

• 7:05Caroline Burckle?

  Okay, now's the time. Is this the test?

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Caroline Burckle?

  Otelo.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  I don't even think that's close.

• 7:13Chris Hauth?

  I just, I just go full-

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  You're of European descent.

• 7:16Chris Hauth?

  I know, I go full American for this.

• 7:18Caroline Burckle?

  Otelo.

• 7:19Rich Roll?

  Otelo. Don't even try.

• 7:21Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 7:21Rich Roll?

  That way you exempt yourself out of the criticism, right?

• 7:24Chris Hauth?

  And I'm not in that gray zone of somewhat insulting.

• 7:27Rich Roll?

  Right. But as long as you preface it by saying, "I'm gonna butcher this."

• 7:32Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Rich Roll?

  But let me give it a go.

• 7:34Caroline Burckle?

  Okay, let's hear it.

• 7:35Chris Hauth?

  Otelo.

• 7:36Caroline Burckle?

  Is that it?

• 7:37Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 7:37Caroline Burckle?

  Well, what we really need to do is just ask for whomever is listening right now.

• 7:43Rich Roll?

  It doesn't lodge in my long-term memory, though.

• 7:45Caroline Burckle?

  Send us a voice memo.

• 7:47Rich Roll?

  I've had many people say it properly, and then, for whatever reason, I can't do it.

• 7:50Chris Hauth?

  Even doing it last-

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  I think once you get to a certain age, you lose that ability, that, that, that part of your brain just gets switched off.

• 7:57Chris Hauth?

  Even hearing it last March on Catalina enough.

• 8:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:01Chris Hauth?

  From Americans saying it properly, I still don't remember.

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  Right. So here we are, ugly Americans.

• 8:08Chris Hauth?

  You're doing November? You're doing Catalina November?

• 8:10Caroline Burckle?

  With my brother.

• 8:11Chris Hauth?

  Right on.

• 8:13Rich Roll?

  Are you doing the full, the full one?

• 8:15Caroline Burckle?

  No, we're doing the sprint.

• 8:16Rich Roll?

  The sprint.

• 8:16Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 8:17Caroline Burckle?

  It won't be the same, right? The sprint is not the same experience.

• 8:21Chris Hauth?

  I don't know.

• 8:22Rich Roll?

  It's an experience, whiplash with the, I did the, oh, I did the sprint. No, I did the middle one, didn't I?

• 8:29Chris Hauth?

  I don't remember.

• 8:29Rich Roll?

  I think I did the middle one. There's a, there's, there's a short one, a middle one. Yeah, I think I did the middle one. I was gonna do the long one with Mark, but then he had a timing thing and we, for whatever reason, like, we couldn't do it.

• 8:41Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  And then I was grateful, because I realized the middle one was hard enough.

• 8:46Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Chris Hauth?

  That island is no joke.

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Caroline Burckle?

  I'm just gonna pretend it's the long one. Yeah, when I told my brother about what we actually need to be training for, you know, getting like slippery rocks and whatever, and he was like, oh yeah, I'll find those around here. He lives in Louisville, Kentucky.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:01Caroline Burckle?

  All right, Clark. And I mean, he's committed. My brother is a competitor though, so.

• 9:06Rich Roll?

  Right, which is why it seems like you should do a lot, the longer the better.

• 9:10Caroline Burckle?

  The long one, that's what I think.

• 9:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Caroline Burckle?

  We probably should.

• 9:12Rich Roll?

  There's not a lot of slippery rocks in Catalina.

• 9:14Chris Hauth?

  I was just, I was thinking, it's mainly beaches.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. There's hills, but it's more traditional trail running. It's not as technical as Sweden by a long shot.

• 9:24Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 9:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was completely different. I mean, it's, it was hard. The terrain was tough.

• 9:28Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  But it wasn't like mountain, like orienteering or, you know, you're not trudging through bogs.

• 9:34Chris Hauth?

  Through the forest.

• 9:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like falling down on your butt on slippery rocks. Like, that wasn't part of it. But.

• 9:40Caroline Burckle?

  It may be part of mine.

• 9:41Rich Roll?

  And it wasn't, and we, maybe it was just the day, but it was super hot out. Like, I was overheated the entire time. I was, I was wishing I had either a sleeveless or just did it without a wetsuit.

• 9:52Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, November. I mean, it's hot. Yeah. What's the water temp? Sixties?

• 9:57Chris Hauth?

  The water will go up. I mean, the water will be a lot warmer than March.

• 10:01Caroline Burckle?

  Like sixty-eight to seventy?

• 10:03Chris Hauth?

  I'll keep that in mind.

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  I was so happy to get back in the water and cool down because the running definitely overheated me. And that, that was the biggest challenge, like being overheated, trying to run up trails like steep hills.

• 10:16Chris Hauth?

  The run segments were also different than the traditional Attilo in Sweden that we did.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, way different.

• 10:24Chris Hauth?

  They were longer.

• 10:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Chris Hauth?

  And you're more exposed. They were more in a forest and shorter in and out of water. You do these 200 meter runs and then 200 meter swim and then 300 meter run and 100 meter swim.

• 10:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:37Chris Hauth?

  So that, that was definitely different in Catalina. But he also, Mark, what was it? Michael, warned us, it's a lot harder than it looks. And Catalina was. The long course really surprised me as my partner is just pulling me along. Hey, I got the reverse effect. He was just like, what are you doing, Chris? I'm like, this is way harder than I thought. Andy Blow from Precision Hydration.

• 11:07Caroline Burckle?

  Oh.

• 11:08Chris Hauth?

  So, and he's, he's quite an athlete himself and former pro triathlete.

• 11:13Rich Roll?

  That's an unusual, uncomfortable experience for you to get pulled.

• 11:18Chris Hauth?

  And the apologies that.

• 11:21Rich Roll?

  That's what I was doing to you the whole time. So sorry. Just go ahead. Leave me. Leave me.

• 11:28Caroline Burckle?

  That's how I'm gonna feel when I'm swimming with my brother, though. He's gonna be charging like, I'm talking pace on pace on pace for the swims.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but he's the classic top heavy swimmer. He doesn't look like he can run up a hill.

• 11:40Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, yeah, I think we may be even on the runs, probably. Well, I don't know. Maybe.

• 11:46Chris Hauth?

  But you want that. He'll clear the water for you. You stay on his feet and then. Exactly.

• 11:52Caroline Burckle?

  He swims breaststroke. I swim freestyle and we'll be great.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  It's fine. I mean, I think Catalina is the perfect kind of easy first race to do. You know, Chris and I going to Sweden and doing this thing like we didn't, other than that Donnar trip that we were on, like we didn't do any training together. And it was like, the teamwork aspect of it and like maintaining proximity to your team, like there's a lot of, you know, it was amazing how many people were tethered to each other, too.

• 12:20Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  Which we, I've still never tried that because that just, I'm like, I'll face plant, I'll trip on that cord or, you know, something bad will happen.

• 12:29Chris Hauth?

  So it helps, but it helps for, if you have a super strong swimmer that literally can pull you.

• 12:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:36Chris Hauth?

  I mean, there were a few times where Andy, yes, pulled me.

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  Oh, you were tethered?

• 12:40Chris Hauth?

  I was, he was like, you know, let me pull you.

• 12:45Chris Hauth?

  Not on the run, on the swim, he pulled me.

• 12:49Rich Roll?

  And it's, it is interesting, and I noticed this both in Sweden and in Catalina, because you have the European crop of athletes who come, who are doing the circuit. And, and the sport has now been around long enough that you have these specialists, like this is what they do. They, they're not like doing this on the side or after their triathlon career is over, like they're swim runners. And that's a very specific skill set that they have mastered. And when you see them execute, you're like, oh, that's a whole other thing that they're doing, you know? They're so good at it. There's no weakness.

• 13:23Caroline Burckle?

  I'm curious to see who comes for it. The only one I've done is with Hillary.

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:29Caroline Burckle?

  And that was in San Diego, or no, Long Beach.

• 13:31Rich Roll?

  Which is a whole different.

• 13:32Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, my God, we were like, boom. Well, Hillary is very similar to my brother to where strategy, strategy, strategy. And I'm just like, whoop, let's go. You know, so it's like I can, I pick up well on the strategist. So I can strategize with the strategist. So Hillary is like, let's do this. This is the route. This is how we're doing it. My brother's the same way. So it's like a good balance. You don't have two people trying to tell each other what to do the whole time.

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  And then you'll get there and it'll be a whole different thing.

• 14:00Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, you're gonna, the plan will go awry and you'll change it completely.

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Chris Hauth?

  It'll be rainy, windy, choppy.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  Right, I know, right?

• 14:08Caroline Burckle?

  I remember watching that and I was like broken on the couch and, and just so in awe of you two doing that.

• 14:16Rich Roll?

  I'm so glad it was that way, though. Cause you went there next year and it was like a nice day. Yeah.

• 14:21Chris Hauth?

  It was sunny in seventy five the next year. It was a completely different experience. So us always having that event.

• 14:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:28Chris Hauth?

  It was epic. I mean, it's, it's an experience of a lifetime to have that come together like that. And for us to be in that scenario, you can't script that.

• 14:37Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 14:39Caroline Burckle?

  It was something else to watch. I'll put it that way. Being on my side and watching it as, as it was live and you guys were going through.

• 14:46Rich Roll?

  Did you watch the live stream of the whole thing?

• 14:48Caroline Burckle?

  Like, I don't remember what hour of the day it was at, but I was like, I'm committed to this. I gotta watch this. And it was like choppy at some time, you know, there was points when it was just like spotty and the internet, the wifi was bad or whatever. But you guys, I mean, I was seasick watching it and just knowing what you all were doing through that was inspiring enough for me.

• 15:08Rich Roll?

  I've told this story before, but the, the, the most absurd moment in the whole thing was like midway through the pig swim, which is like the, the longest, it comes like maybe two thirds of the way in. It's the most exposed and the longest channel crossing and the whole thing where there's no island protection. So you really get the chop of the Baltic Sea. And I completely lost eye contact with Chris. I had no idea where he was. And you couldn't, all the islands looked the same. So when you're spotting on the horizon where you're supposed to go, you lose your perspective of which direction you're heading. And the boats were pitching so insanely that it was like, if this was in the United States, there's, there's no way they would let any boats out here.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  And I just lied on my back and started laughing. I was like, this is the most ridiculous. And, and do you remember how many, like, just everywhere you looked were jellyfish? But they weren't, they didn't sting. They were a certain kind of jellyfish. But just like thousands, you know, everywhere you, at every stroke. And I was like, this is.

• 16:13Chris Hauth?

  And that, that was the only reason they would have canceled the race is not because of us. Not because of the swimmer, because of the boats. They have to stay sort of in one place. And they would have getting tossed so badly as support boats that they would have had to cancel the race only because of that. They said, we don't care about the swimmers or the athletes.

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  And Tomas was on one of those boats and he had some stories about like getting seasick.

• 16:38Chris Hauth?

  Pretty brutal.

• 16:38Caroline Burckle?

  I remember that, those stories.

• 16:41Chris Hauth?

  The main thing I remember, and I'll never forget, is just you and I looking at each other at the top of one of those cliffs. I think it was right before the pig swim. And we just start laughing. We're like, we had to be serious?

• 16:53Rich Roll?

  Slide down on our butt to even get down to the place where you jump in? It's like, we definitely didn't train for this correctly.

• 16:59Chris Hauth?

  A, and B, where's the coast guard?

• 17:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. Like, wait, we're getting in here?

• 17:03Chris Hauth?

  Are we, did they cancel it? And we're still just the only ones out there? You know, that, that thought process?

• 17:08Caroline Burckle?

  Did they bring it back?

• 17:09Chris Hauth?

  Oh gosh, it was, it was quite remarkable. Sitting on that beach and just looking at each other, just laughing. Cause that's all you could do. You're like, all right, well, here we go.

• 17:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:19Caroline Burckle?

  Those are the moments you remember the most.

• 17:20Rich Roll?

  Catalina won't be like that.

• 17:22Chris Hauth?

  Most likely.

• 17:22Caroline Burckle?

  Are you sure?

• 17:23Chris Hauth?

  We'll see. Well, because the hardest swim in Catalina is the really long one on the back end of the on the when you're already coming back and it's this you leave this beautiful beach. I mean, some of these beaches and these swims are gorgeous.

• 17:35Rich Roll?

  And the clarity in the water is nothing like it is in LA. Like, it is very tropical. Like, the marine life is bananas.

• 17:42Chris Hauth?

  And then there's this one long swim. You leave the beach and you swim about a mile, maybe a little bit more. I don't remember off the top of my head, but it's these cliffs and the beautiful island right there and you have to swim around a point to come back in and onto another beautiful beach. But you're swimming and you're like, this is big ocean swimming. Like, because you're just completely exposed and the cliffs just go straight up. And it's a pretty remarkable swim. The current's against you and you're just like, this is awesome.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Chris Hauth?

  It's pretty hard, but...

• 18:10Caroline Burckle?

  And it's sharky, yeah? Do we need to bring Michael with us? Michael Muller on the...

• 18:16Chris Hauth?

  I don't think it's sharky.

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 18:19Chris Hauth?

  You want to do Catalina.

• 18:20Caroline Burckle?

  I know.

• 18:20Chris Hauth?

  How is that gonna work?

• 18:21Caroline Burckle?

  I know. No, I'm fine with them. I just want to know if there are sharks.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  And what will that do for you? If the answer is yes or no, does it change anything if you're gonna do it?

• 18:32Caroline Burckle?

  I think the general awareness, oh, no, I'll still do it.

• 18:35Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 18:36Caroline Burckle?

  But the general awareness of knowing that, okay, that's gonna...

• 18:40Chris Hauth?

  So you're gonna do the midnight start and the whole thing? You're doing the official crossing where you start at midnight, you swim through the night and, you know?

• 18:48Caroline Burckle?

  I don't think ours is at midnight this time.

• 18:50Chris Hauth?

  Okay.

• 18:51Caroline Burckle?

  I don't know.

• 18:51Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Caroline Burckle?

  Actually, I mean, I'm almost positive it's not at midnight. I remember looking at the, I think it's like maybe 6:00 AM, 5:00 AM.

• 18:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:59Caroline Burckle?

  Early.

• 18:59Rich Roll?

  Do you, uh, do you know Hank Wise?

• 19:02Caroline Burckle?

  Sounds familiar.

• 19:03Rich Roll?

  He lives down in, um, like, the Long Beach area.

• 19:07Caroline Burckle?

  Is he doing it?

• 19:07Rich Roll?

  Swam at Stanford with me. Super funny goofball guy. But he, he coaches kids now, but he's done the Catalina Swim a million times. And I think like a year ago, he broke the record. And he's like a couple of years younger than me, like, maybe, he must be 51 or something like that at this point.

• 19:26Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 19:27Rich Roll?

  Came really close to breaking it, then I think he broke, I think he might be the record holder right now. I don't know. But he's done it so many times. Like, I could connect you with him.

• 19:35Caroline Burckle?

  Solo?

• 19:35Rich Roll?

  He'll have, he'll have the whole breakdown and low down of like what to do and what not to do.

• 19:40Caroline Burckle?

  That would be great, because I'm, I like to plan.

• 19:43Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and the captain is key for that, too. I mean, you can shave off of a ton of time. Yeah, and for Tahoe, that's the main reason for me. There's no big fish.

• 19:55Caroline Burckle?

  Okay, let's talk about that. Are you gonna do this, too?

• 19:58Rich Roll?

  I have not swum at all. I've done no swimming. Like, it sounds cool, like I 21 miles across Tahoe. We should just preface or contextualize this by saying that's what Chris is getting ready for right now. Trans Tahoe, crossing 21 miles.

• 20:12Caroline Burckle?

  I'm also not training, though. I mean, the pools are...

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  There's no pools.

• 20:16Caroline Burckle?

  There's no pools. I don't know how you went...

• 20:18Rich Roll?

  So...

• 20:19Caroline Burckle?

  This morning, he's like, "Oh, I'm swimming at Pally High." I'm like, "Also, new news to me that a pool's open."

• 20:25Chris Hauth?

  Forty minutes head down. Go.

• 20:27Rich Roll?

  But you were, you on Instagram shared pictures of you on a pool deck, so...

• 20:31Caroline Burckle?

  I went to El Segundo, Wiseburn, and they have like, I mean, I'm talking, you book it on the hour, 7 a.m. for the week out. And if you get lucky, you get a slot. If not, you're like one minute late.

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 20:43Caroline Burckle?

  So I got that one, and then I got a lane at, what's the one in Culver City, Plunge?

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, the plunge, yeah.

• 20:51Caroline Burckle?

  That was it.

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  But you gotta book ahead. Like, I did that, too, and I've said this before, but yeah, like, look at the schedule, like, and I'll like, I'll just like, book a ton for the whole week, and then like, the way my schedule kind of plays out, like, I end up making one of those swims.

• 21:06Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, you're that guy.

• 21:07Rich Roll?

  I just like, I don't wanna... Do it on a schedule. I do it when I, when I have an opening and I scoot over, you know?

• 21:14Caroline Burckle?

  It's so, you were saying that on Bonnie, when you were talking to Bonnie, because it's so true. It's like, you, you just wanna go when you feel it. Like, when you wake up in the morning and you feel like, "I need to swim today. My body's sore. I need to loosen up, be one with the water." And it's hard when you just have to schedule it in at a certain day and time, and...

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  And I don't wanna go down and swim in the ocean by myself. Like, I just am like, all uptight and like, anxious the whole time.

• 21:37Caroline Burckle?

  It is scary.

• 21:37Rich Roll?

  You were sharing, Chris, on your latest podcast episode about swimming in the bay and the difference between seals and sea lions.

• 21:46Caroline Burckle?

  Jeez.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like seals fine, sea lions not so fine.

• 21:50Chris Hauth?

  And you don't know as they're coming up.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they don't announce what kind of animal they are. They just ram into you.

• 21:56Chris Hauth?

  Exactly. Hard.

• 21:58Caroline Burckle?

  No, they're very vicious. Yeah.

• 22:00Chris Hauth?

  Super vicious. They're territorial.

• 22:02Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Chris Hauth?

  That's the problem with seals.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  Do they bite?

• 22:05Chris Hauth?

  They will. They'll nip you. Yeah, really hard. There's definitely a bunch of south end rowing guys who have gotten.

• 22:13Rich Roll?

  Right. Is that when they get out in the bay, though? They don't come in a aquatic park? That would be unusual.

• 22:18Chris Hauth?

  Rarely, rarely. But yeah, most go out. Most of the south end rowing guys.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  I just saw a couple of days ago, there was a whale came into the bay.

• 22:26Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, wow.

• 22:27Chris Hauth?

  There's a lot going on in the bay right now.

• 22:29Caroline Burckle?

  There's just a lot in general. Like, there's, I mean, the weather has been, it's been the biggest surf in, what, 30 years?

• 22:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 22:38Caroline Burckle?

  In LA? I don't, I just made that number up, so I think.

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  Is that true? I haven't heard that.

• 22:42Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, because I think the, I don't remember when it was, but the first rain that happened, all the wind that came in, I mean, it was in Redondo and in Hermosa, Redondo, Manhattan, all the surfers were just like, this is the biggest swell we've had in so long. And I don't surf, so I just watch. And it was intense. I mean, pumping. And then right after that, you see so much more wildlife. Like, when things calm down again, it's like, it's like the changing of the tides, literally. Like, things just happen. And you go out there and there's seals everywhere, sea lions, or whatever, sharks, and dolphins, and all of these things that people are spotting and finding. And I find it so beautiful. I'm like, this is so cool that life just has this cycle of, of that, you know?

• 23:21Chris Hauth?

  Renewal, yeah.

• 23:22Caroline Burckle?

  And I'm, I'm just still learning so much about all of that with the ocean in the first place, but it's very cool to learn.

• 23:28Rich Roll?

  Right. Except that when there's a big storm and all the surfers go out, they're disregarding the fact that, like, that's when all the runoff is in the ocean and everybody ends up with some kind of infection.

• 23:39Caroline Burckle?

  Like I did. Learned my lesson there. Yeah. Remember the septic knee thing?

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, right. Was that from, that was from that? Wow.

• 23:45Caroline Burckle?

  So now I feel like the, the one that after it rains every time, you know, there are still some of my buddies that will go out. In the water and I feel, you know, bummed because I'm like, guys, I just, I've had a bad experience. It was a hospital thing. Like, I can't do that again. And I just, I won't. So I just wait, I wait 72 hours.

• 24:03Chris Hauth?

  There's plenty of days to swim.

• 24:04Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, exactly. And the way I see it is, Mother Ocean has her way, you know, like, that's power. Like, we are guests in that space. And that's, I just view it as that. Like, I will join when it feels right for me. And that's just been my philosophy since I'm not, you know, a big wave surfer or anything like that, but.

• 24:23Chris Hauth?

  I think you can say that with Mother Nature.

• 24:26Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, exactly. Mother of all things. But yeah.

• 24:30Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, we noticed the big surf on the coast ride last week.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 24:33Chris Hauth?

  Coming down, it was pretty remarkable.

• 24:35Rich Roll?

  How many people did you have on that ride?

• 24:37Chris Hauth?

  Fifteen.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Chris Hauth?

  Fifteen, yeah. I mean, for us, it was, one for me was important to put on an event.

• 24:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Chris Hauth?

  And not cancel something. And it was in January, we had to cancel because everything was closed. And so we only had about 15 that were flexible enough, sort of like calling the Eddie. It was like calling the coast ride. And we had 15 people show up, ride down the coast, and the highway ones closed because the washout, there's a huge washout. So we had to go inland, which is not quite big surf.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  It's a little bit different.

• 25:10Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful Carmel Valley and so forth. And then, but next thing you know, you're in the Central Valley, and there's a lot of headwind.

• 25:17Rich Roll?

  Flat, commercial farming.

• 25:20Chris Hauth?

  It is. But then we turned into the old Wildflower course. And being back there again for the first time in 15, 20 years, that was pretty cool to see.

• 25:30Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 25:30Chris Hauth?

  But yeah.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  So with COVID and all the challenges that it's thrown at us for the last year, here we have Chris, who's, who's just been living his best life. He's like coaching, coast rides. Yeah, like, he's super fit, training for this, like, even though there's, I guess your, your masters pool, that's open, right?

• 25:50Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Rich Roll?

  So you've been able to get back in there?

• 25:52Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Rich Roll?

  But it's kind of been, I mean, I'm not, I don't want to minimize, like, there's obviously challenges and setbacks, but you've been, you know, basically thriving.

• 26:02Chris Hauth?

  Self curated adventures and this time of non competition highlighting for a lot of people what's really important to them on what they're doing on their endurance journey and what they really need and they realize that they don't need a finish line. They need the experience, the journey, the time out there, the growth and the curiosity for potential, as I like to always say, right? Like curious of what else I can do. And I think this last year, because there has been no competition in this sense of urgency, like must get ready, they've relaxed into becoming better overall holistic endurance

• 26:44Chris Hauth?

  athletes and it's been fun. Like I've had more athletes approach me with a new sense of purpose and better outlook towards the future than ever before.

• 26:56Rich Roll?

  Right, because without a race, then that question of why are you even doing this becomes, you know, more present, like you can't really run away from it, right? And all the excuses around like, I don't have time to work on technique, or I don't have time to do the strength, where all the other stuff that gets packed into kind of maximizing your potential, that when you're busy and this is your hobby, as you always say, is easy to kind of push across to the side, like, well, now's your moment. Like here you can actually do all those things and answer that question of why and get really deep into like the purpose aspect of all of this.

• 27:34Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Rich Roll?

  But one of the things I always think, when I was listening to your latest podcast episode, which by the way is fantastic, like

• 27:41Chris Hauth?

  Thank you.

• 27:42Rich Roll?

  You've really, you know, I didn't realize that you have been doing this now for four and a half years. You've become a master of this medium and it's, I mean, every endurance athlete should listen to your podcast. It's really, really well done.

• 27:53Chris Hauth?

  Thank you.

• 27:54Rich Roll?

  But I feel like As somebody who's known you for a long time, you've matured so much, not just as a human being, but how you kind of communicate your mentorship. And had COVID occurred like 10 years ago, you would have been the most intolerant, petulant, you know, like, like, I don't want to hear about your stupid excuse. You know, it's like, but you're now like, I was listening to you talk and I was like, this guy's like a life coach. Like, it really has so little to do with endurance anymore. It's really about like, life and meaning.

• 28:29Chris Hauth?

  It is.

• 28:29Rich Roll?

  And so that this moment that we're having right now has coincided with your capacity to kind of speak to it.

• 28:37Chris Hauth?

  It appeared as it should, right? If, like you said, 10 years ago, I would have not been prepared for this. But for some reason, things just all came together right here. I wasn't mature enough 10 years ago. I didn't have the wisdom 10 years ago. I didn't have a partner who challenges me constantly to go through this. Like, it all culminates to this place. And now, to speak more towards the purpose, it's my enjoyment lies 100% in helping others get that sort of deep understanding of their why, or their purpose, or their path. I mean, the biggest frustration that many athletes that come to me have

• 29:22Chris Hauth?

  is that I keep telling them, it will appear for you. Do not try to force it. You know, you can't manipulate your life path. And they don't want to hear that. And it takes a few years and then they'll come back and go, you know what, you were sort of right back then. I'm ready to take that journey now.

• 29:39Rich Roll?

  Right. But my power meter says this, Chris, and I needed to say this.

• 29:44Chris Hauth?

  Yes, but the only way it's going to say that is if you let go and let, you know, it's like we know from swimming, you know, it's like whenever we're too tight on, I'm, today this set is going to be so intense. Like, you try to get yourself mentally ready for it, and then you get there and you're three or four repeats in, and you're nervous, and you're not swimming well, and your walls are awful, and you're just like chopping through the water. And then it's like, what am I making such a big deal out of this? And then slowly you return into what you're capable of.

• 30:17Chris Hauth?

  And that's the hardest part, that dichotomy.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Chris Hauth?

  Caring enough for the result and the outcome, but also letting go enough for letting the result and outcome to happen for you.

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  The Eckhart Tolle.

• 30:30Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, that's literally my favorite. You know, right now I'm living in a space of of possibilities on both sides of everything. Like both things can be true. And, you know, I don't work with older athletes like you do. But the younger generation, these teenagers, it's the same thing. It's like this, I don't want to let go of that control because if I let go of that control, then I'm gonna fail. I have, you know, then then my confidence will will, you know, go down the drain. All of these other things that people just hold on so tightly to. And to let go is such a physical experience too, that you have to experience through your body, which I'm a big fan of of just that whole conversation.

• 31:13Caroline Burckle?

  But I think we try to use our minds to to wrap around that to where it's like, I'm just gonna let go with my mind.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Caroline Burckle?

  And then, yes, we can let go with our minds, but then we're just, our bodies are still tense and our minds are trying to let go and conceptualize this thing that we haven't actually experienced through our whole physical being, which I think quarantine has allowed people to tap in to themselves in a different way because they don't have that physical outlet in the same way. So they have to release physically through other modalities.

• 31:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:42Caroline Burckle?

  You know?

• 31:42Rich Roll?

  Right, like what it, that's the gift of this whole experience. Like when you're, when you're older and you've been ground down by life and you've, you know, had your experiences, like you kind of slowly come to this realization of the power of letting go or like, you know, really calibrating like what you can control versus what you can't. When you're young, it's very difficult, right? Like you're like, this is what I'm doing and this is my path. And I've got this, this is my meat schedule and this is what I'm doing. And then COVID hits and it all gets thrown out the window. Like how, how? Not just disruptive, but like completely, you know, disorienting for a young athlete on the rise, right? So they're, but they're being given this opportunity to kind of grapple with these

• 32:27Rich Roll?

  things that most people don't figure out until much later.

• 32:30Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Rich Roll?

  And if they can figure that out, how much more kind of powerful can they be?

• 32:34Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with living under the constructs of, you know, what you're modeled in a young age, because that's how we all grow and learn. But like you said, as you get older, you start to unlearn the things from your past. So it just opens up more space to, to create what you want. So I think when athletes are young, they're afraid that something that works for them is, you know, well, it's like what we talked about last time. Well, if it works for me to, to do this, but everybody else is doing this, then I can't possibly do this. Like, that's wrong. Whereas when you get older, you can kind of figure out what works for you, you know, training or, or off-training, you know, like when you're at home.

• 33:15Caroline Burckle?

  So I am noticing a big growth in that, where people are starting to just own and claim their own path about what works for them, especially the athletes that I've talked to and worked with during this time. It's like, I've had more time to actually understand who I am as an athlete, not only, you know, outside, but actually as a competitor, like who I am as a competitor. It's given, I want to see where these kids are going to be in one or two years, where your athletes are going to be in one or two years. Like, after having this window of time, I can't, I mean, that's huge. It allowed people to work on things they've never experienced before. I just, I'm excited for that, like personally.

• 33:53Rich Roll?

  How many, what's the percentage of your athletes, Caroline, that are, that are swimmers versus other sports?

• 33:58Caroline Burckle?

  Um, swimmers are, water sports are the most dominant with us. We've got water polo and swimming are the main two. And then we've got softball, baseball, synchronized swimming, well, artistic swimming.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  Really? They changed it?

• 34:12Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, I know. I keep saying synchronized.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  Is that like a woke thing? Like, why did they change the name of that?

• 34:17Caroline Burckle?

  I guess it is. I don't know.

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  Artistic swimming?

• 34:20Caroline Burckle?

  I know. I need to do a little more research on that, but I know that they've changed it, artistic swimming, which is cool. Um, but yeah, so swimming is, water sports for sure.

• 34:30Rich Roll?

  Right. And is there a difference in how the athletes that you're working with are processing this based upon what sport they're in?

• 34:38Caroline Burckle?

  Honestly, it also depends on Olympic sports too. So like, we have a couple of sports that aren't Olympic sports. So it's like, the seasons are different. You know, they have a different kind of structure and layout. But when you have these athletes, and we have some mentors that were training for Tokyo, and it's same thing, it's like, it really threw them off. Like, it really was hard at first. And, you know, your point of what you're saying, they've come a long way. But this time for those that had that Olympic schedule, where a lot of sports follow, you know, the quad of needs and structure, whether it's world championships and Pan Ams and whatever. It threw a lot of people off at first. The first initial three months were really difficult.

• 35:22Chris Hauth?

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:22Caroline Burckle?

  Really, really, really difficult. And it just felt like, what's my purpose? Like, wow, if this isn't, you know, my path, what am I doing? And even some of our athletes were saying things like, well, what am I gonna work on now?

• 35:37Chris Hauth?

  Right.

• 35:38Caroline Burckle?

  Well, we work on mindset, you know, but I don't, I don't know what to work on. And it took about, you know, most of our mentors were saying this to us, just, okay, so we've really got to all come together and shift what we're doing here. Like, how can we go through a transitional period with unknown and uncertainty versus, okay, how can we get ready for the ISL or the state championships or sectional championships, or whatever it is? So it was a big shift in purpose, like we were talking about earlier. Huge. Like, people completely had to redo their goals.

• 36:11Chris Hauth?

  Well, you almost get kicked off the highway, right? Like, let's say you're heading on a highway your entire life. It's pretty structured in swimming especially, where you know where you're gonna be in a year from now and two years from now, if you keep progressing. It's a pretty clear path. And it's not like this year has just been a detour. It's like, you completely got kicked off the highway.

• 36:33Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 36:34Chris Hauth?

  Now, where you're going is still out there. But it's like, how do you make that detour, side road, whatever, work for you to still get back on the highway a couple of miles down the road? And that's the part that I find, even the younger athletes and Olympic athletes. Have struggled with early of, well, wait a moment, there's no manual for this. And we've, we've been conditioned our entire life. And it to this day in all sports, it's like, do these things, do it like this, set your mind to this. And no, power through, don't listen to your body, just go, right? And this is how it works. And those first few months, when you take all that structure, all that narrative, your entire identity away.

• 37:19Chris Hauth?

  Of course, you're going to be floundering and confused. And like you said, okay, work on mindset, what does that even mean?

• 37:27Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Chris Hauth?

  Because again.

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  You don't get it, the pools are closed.

• 37:31Caroline Burckle?

  Right, yeah, that's, that was the answer.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  When I was 19, if the pool was closed for like a week, I would have a panic attack. You know, like.

• 37:40Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, so.

• 37:40Caroline Burckle?

  It's so true, yeah, you're like, well, what do I, I don't get it, do I just do abs? Like, you know, and so there's this whole shift where it was, it, it really was interesting to see the athletes say, okay. I mean, we had the artistic swimmer, that's a mentor, doing her actual routines on land over Zoom with the other, her teammates. And she's training for Tokyo, she's also a mentor. And they had the, you know, the yoga things where you put your head in and you can do headstands, but it's like a lifted, raised, I forget what it's called. I mean, they're all upside down doing their routines on Zoom. And she's sending us videos of what she's doing because we were just like, this is phenomenal. But it was such a shift of like, but wait, the pools are closed, how do we do this?

• 38:25Caroline Burckle?

  And in her perspective, like she was able to, you know, work on her own shift, but she was unique in that she was also competing. And the ones that the kids she was helping, you know, those teen athletes got an even better perspective based on her own growth and what she was going through. So she was able to grow and also learn how to help someone else during her own growth, which I think is insanely, I can't imagine doing that when I was her age. Like, I would have been so laser focused to not be able to like, understand anything else around me. And I think it's really allowing people to, to understand their purpose outside of sport and helping and, and growing and. You know, shifting whatever they had to do to however they had to do it.

• 39:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and the athlete that can develop the stoic mindset.

• 39:11Chris Hauth?

  I was just gonna say, when you take everything away.

• 39:14Rich Roll?

  Everything's gone, here are all these obstacles. So we can either throw a pity party and be angry about it, or we go, all right, here's what it is. So, okay, I guess we're gonna do our routines on Zoom now. Like, let's do it.

• 39:26Chris Hauth?

  Or swim in aquatic park. I mean, you would go early in the summer last year with the pandemic and the pools closed, and you would go to the aquatic park. There would be like 600 swimmers.

• 39:38Caroline Burckle?

  Wow.

• 39:39Chris Hauth?

  Because all these high school kids were swimming, you know, it was constant. And everybody's swimming out along down to the St. Francis and back. That was their only swimming. So you had swimmers from all over the Bay Area using aquatic park as a launch point for swimming.

• 39:56Caroline Burckle?

  Wow.

• 39:56Chris Hauth?

  And you'd have coaches on the rocks and on the pier.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:00Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. By time, you know, and they'd whistle. It was fascinating.

• 40:04Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, I've thought, I've thought about that a lot, just what it would have been like if this was an Olympic year before Beijing.

• 40:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:14Caroline Burckle?

  And we were, I think about it all the time. I mean, of course, I don't know what I would have done in that moment. But yeah, I guarantee it would have been an adaptation lesson.

• 40:24Chris Hauth?

  Well, just think three months before trials.

• 40:27Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 40:28Chris Hauth?

  The world stops.

• 40:28Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 40:29Chris Hauth?

  Right? I think that's what it was gonna be. Three months or two months before trials.

• 40:33Rich Roll?

  We're right at the one year mark right now.

• 40:36Chris Hauth?

  But last March, it was, I think trials were a little bit earlier.

• 40:40Caroline Burckle?

  You're absolutely right. Trials were like June, May, June.

• 40:42Chris Hauth?

  But I think they were going to be a little bit earlier this year. I think they were gonna be late May or last year. And so it was like two and a half months before trials.

• 40:50Caroline Burckle?

  I can't imagine.

• 40:51Chris Hauth?

  Here you are. I mean, and we're talking our little swimmer world, right? But that's multiplied by 100 sports. Your whole life.

• 41:00Caroline Burckle?

  I want to see where they're gonna be in two. I'm telling you, something is, this is so fruitful for their minds and for. Their regulation of who they are, just as a human.

• 41:10Rich Roll?

  Well, and it truly is the one who is the most, the ones who did work on the mindset piece and really took that seriously are the ones that are going to emerge and have the big careers because that's the only way that you get through this.

• 41:24Chris Hauth?

  Well, think of the vulnerability that comes about when you've been, when everything has been pulled out of your identity last March and you've been able to work through that and figure out a way and you're back in the pool since, I think most of them are since August or September, they've been getting in pools. And your gratitude, your understanding of how special this is, how meaningful, the extra motivation, the intrinsic push you get from that, you could, hopefully, many of them are kicking out stronger, more resilient athletes than they ever thought they could be. They've discovered a side of themselves that was not there before because we were all

• 42:08Chris Hauth?

  in the channel, right? And we got knocked off that path and next thing you know, it's like, wow, I'm back on the path. This is amazing. Now I understand what it means to dig deeper and find a third and fourth wind and focus even more and be more diligent about recovery and nutrition and mindset and all those things. Like hopefully that all became amplified because it was gone. It was literally gone.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:35Chris Hauth?

  And you sat on the couch eating a box of Pringles going, what do I do? I mean, it was that bad. We're not exaggerating here.

• 42:44Caroline Burckle?

  For sure. I'm interested to see what the transition is back into, I don't like saying the word normal, but back, you know, into this new way of living too. Cause I know that a lot of athletes are now feeling like, okay, I got used to this. And now I'm transitioning back and things are starting to happen and I've got to shift again. And that's a whole nother shift because you're, you're, you like regulate, you know, you adapt, you regulate, and then you got to adapt and shift again. And that can be daunting to a lot of athletes that have sort of gotten used to the way that things were with their training and with, you know, school. And then all of a sudden, you're, you know, an introverted 14-year-old and you got to go back out into the world and there's a ton of people everywhere.

• 43:28Caroline Burckle?

  And you got to go to meets again and there's a ton of people everywhere. And that is also something that I'm, I'm curious to see like how well we can support them in that space because I think that's something that's sort of forgotten.

• 43:40Rich Roll?

  Well, we all have to do that as people, too.

• 43:43Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I know, I feel that. Even, even out on the highway, I'm like, well, the 405 is lit right now. Like, it wasn't this way three months ago.

• 43:51Chris Hauth?

  Where are all these people coming from?

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  I know. Where are they going? They can't be all podcasting. Well, maybe they are. Everybody has a podcast now. Everybody's late to their podcast interview.

• 44:01Chris Hauth?

  This used to be my highway. Now there's actually other people living in L.A.

• 44:06Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, it was nice for a while.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  It was crazy.

• 44:09Caroline Burckle?

  I was like, open road.

• 44:10Rich Roll?

  Because, yeah, you could go, I could, I was like literally driving to the Rose Bowl pool to swim and it was not that, I mean, it was far, but it wasn't that big of a deal. It's like, it's not the distances, it's the freaking traffic here.

• 44:20Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 44:21Chris Hauth?

  I was the only person online in security yesterday at SFI. Not a single person in each direction. I walked right up, they scanned my ID, I go to the security line and the thing goes off and they go, you've been randomly selected. And I look around, I'm like, what do you mean randomly selected? You have to change that word. Because I'm clearly not random.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 44:46Chris Hauth?

  So, only line, only person in security line. It's still pretty empty.

• 44:51Rich Roll?

  It's interesting because you hear like, oh, everybody's back flying, but then, you know, I've had, I've only flown twice this past year, but both times I was in the airport, you know, I was, you just walk right in.

• 45:02Chris Hauth?

  It is so nice, though. It is like, I mean, you get off, I got off the shuttle and I was at this gate within like four minutes.

• 45:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:10Chris Hauth?

  And you're just like, wow, this is how travel could be?

• 45:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:14Chris Hauth?

  To get on the plane, have the planes empty. You know, it was nice.

• 45:28Rich Roll?

  What is, I know this is a moving target, but how is the Olympics gonna work? Like, they're not letting foreigners into Tokyo, but there's enough people in Japan to kind of fill the rafters in terms of attendance, and they're being restrictive about journalists and the like. But like, what is, from the athlete's perspective, working with athletes who are getting ready to go, like, what is that experience gonna look like for them?

• 45:53Caroline Burckle?

  I think they're still figuring it out.

• 45:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 45:56Caroline Burckle?

  I haven't heard anything solidified yet.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  It's still kind of in flux.

• 46:00Caroline Burckle?

  Because when I ask them, it's still, yeah. And I think that, you know, a lot of coaches are doing a good job preparing them for what they need to know, but also, things are gonna change again.

• 46:11Rich Roll?

  It's gonna be different, yeah.

• 46:12Caroline Burckle?

  It's gonna be different again. I think the village will be just far more spaced out. You know, I'm sure with what they built, they're gonna have to arrange that somehow, or build, they've been building more, I would imagine. But I haven't heard anything solidified, so I wouldn't know definitely what that will be like to be an athlete. I just know that it will probably be pretty restricted. I mean, if I was in Beijing and we could literally only go from the village to the pool, I can't imagine what it will be like now. You know, that was what we could do, and that was it. So I'm sure that it will be pretty tight restrictions on that end.

• 46:46Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the pro sport bubbles have helped.

• 46:51Caroline Burckle?

  For sure.

• 46:52Chris Hauth?

  Give them planning for that.

• 46:53Caroline Burckle?

  For sure.

• 46:54Rich Roll?

  It's been a proven ground for how to do it.

• 46:55Chris Hauth?

  It's going to be the bubble of bubbles.

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's gonna be like a hundredfold in terms of scale.

• 47:00Chris Hauth?

  Exactly. But I think they'll separate the venues more dramatically.

• 47:04Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Chris Hauth?

  Like, truly, the swimmers and the polo players and the divers and such, they will be in their own compound, and like you said, one avenue to and from. You're not interacting with, you know, other athletes. I mean, the opening ceremonies are just gonna be bizarre in general. Like, how are you putting 15,000 athletes, even massed in that proximity, into a stadium? Like, how many people are gonna say no to that, or even want to jeopardize their Olympic?

• 47:33Chris Hauth?

  Event, right. So, but I also think that those bubbles are going to be bubbles within bubbles. And it's just going to be one quarantine, perfect, you know, biological passport. Closed off area.

• 47:46Caroline Burckle?

  I just, I have a feeling that it will change a bunch over and over again. I mean, I, I don't know.

• 47:53Chris Hauth?

  I think the, the future will hold this, though. I don't think in four years or three years or five years, whenever the next Olympics, I think, I don't think we're going backwards from this. I think from a risk of virus or something like that standpoint, I don't think it's necessarily in the next Olympics going to go backwards from what the restrictions are going to be for this one. It's just going to be more protective, more avoiding the risk of what could be. You know, it's just like security after the 96 games in Atlanta was for the first time, everything changed to 2000. And 92 was pretty bad compared to 88, but 92 is Barcelona and you're already pretty

• 48:35Chris Hauth?

  restricted and big fences, but you're still hanging out in the city with everybody. 96, once the first bomb went off, that was it. Like 2000, 2004, everything went, you're not going backwards from the security.

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  It's hard not to be depressed about that, though. Like, how do you move forward with that and, and not let it rob, rob, you know, the, the athlete or the attendee of the joy? And, you know, we're not just talking about the Olympics, like this is going to be applicable to any large gatherings of human beings.

• 49:05Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. I mean, when I went in Beijing, I didn't go to the opening ceremonies, just.

• 49:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you weren't, you didn't not go because you thought you were going to catch a virus.

• 49:15Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I went because I was worried, you know, while my coaches were worried that my legs would get too tired. But at the same time, you know, I think what you're saying is true. It's like, that will be something that is taken into consideration moving forward, especially with the opening ceremonies and what that looks like. But I can't imagine.

• 49:34Caroline Burckle?

  What that is like for these athletes going into it. I feel very deeply about that. I feel it. So it's just, it's a heavy feeling, but it's also, I have so much respect for those that I see training with their attitudes, positive, you know, it's, it's really cool to see that happen. I, I don't know. I think it would have been really tough to do.

• 49:57Chris Hauth?

  I'm curious about the, the crop of athletes, sort of what you were saying. But we talked about it back at the beginning of the pandemic, when they sort of, when they canceled the Olympics and made it 2021. It, who rises? Who falls back? Who's on the back end of their career and no longer wanted to put in that extra year and put their life on hold? Who are the younger ones kicking up?

• 50:21Caroline Burckle?

  Yes.

• 50:22Chris Hauth?

  Who would have not been quite ready yet last year and got a year of maturity? I mean, it, it shifts a generation because then they have an extra Olympics for the next Olympics. I mean, it just, it's like this Pandora's box that you don't know the outcome and how, what might have changed and what didn't change. But I'm curious to see what the storylines are there and across all sports, because it's, it, it just creates different rosters and different people. And different people were like, no, I couldn't deal with it, or I didn't have access or availability. It's going to be an interesting mix.

• 50:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. And all kinds of, uh, uh, storylines and people like you've never heard of because they're going to emerge out of this. They're not the, the favorites, you know, are probably people who are later in their careers, right? And it's like, can you hang on for another year? Not just hang on for another year, but hang on in a year where all these obstacles are getting thrown at you, where a lot of people are just going to be like, I don't need to do this.

• 51:23Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Rich Roll?

  Like, it's my thing, you know?

• 51:26Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 51:27Rich Roll?

  Like, this is.

• 51:28Caroline Burckle?

  Been there.

• 51:29Chris Hauth?

  Anthony Irvin would have loved this.

• 51:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:31Chris Hauth?

  He would have been like, I just got to say 50.

• 51:32Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 51:33Rich Roll?

  What is he doing? He's in Hawaii right now, like boxing and like, he looks super fit. Like, I don't know what he's.

• 51:38Chris Hauth?

  Of course he is.

• 51:39Rich Roll?

  But like, that guy, I don't count him out of anything.

• 51:43Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Rich Roll?

  He has no interest in swimming and then show up and win the gold medal.

• 51:46Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Chris Hauth?

  And that's the thing, and especially in this environment, he might be like, you know what? I probably still can pop at 23.

• 51:52Caroline Burckle?

  Well, because he's, he's literally a master of adaptation.

• 51:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Caroline Burckle?

  Like, he can adapt to anything, and I've seen it time and time again. No matter the circumstance, he's like, it's fine. Here I am, I'm gonna kick ass, like, I'm gonna do the thing.

• 52:05Chris Hauth?

  Still just gotta swim one length of the pool.

• 52:07Rich Roll?

  Right, I might as well just show up at trials and see.

• 52:09Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, he has no fear in that way, and it's, or he just works with it well.

• 52:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:16Chris Hauth?

  But exactly like you're saying, that is a prime example of somebody who, no matter the circumstance, can just not let his mind get in the way of what his body can do. Right, and that's what I love about a lot of these athletes and the ones we look up to, who just say, you know what, I know how to do this, I inherently know how to do this. It's that, it's that positive presence that they talk of in psychology of, you have a past narrative of being successful and how you do it, and you have this confidence in the future that you can do it again. So you can completely just focus right now.

• 52:55Chris Hauth?

  You have enough validation of the past, and you have enough excitement and curiosity and positive thoughts about the future, so that you can put this moment together. And he's like the perfect example of that. He's like, you know what, I'm not here to prove anything. I've had the success in the past, I know what I, what my future holds, and I'm just gonna do my best right here. And it's great. It's such a heartwarming, exciting, fun thing to watch when you see it and play out that clean.

• 53:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that goes back also to this idea of people that have faced obstacles in their personal life and their life outside of the pool. Like, you know, swimming, track and field, like, sports where it's all about controlling the controllables, where you're in this kind of perfect environment where all, a lot of obstacles are stripped away, and all you have to do is execute. My sense is that those athletes are gonna have a harder time with the adaptability piece, as opposed to, you know, somebody who's doing Otillo in Sweden, where it's just, it's all about obstacles and nothing's ever the same, right? Like, you just, you're acclimated to having to deal with unforeseen things all the time. Whereas in swimming...

• 54:12Rich Roll?

  It's like every day is the same, you know, and you're not used to any kind of weird thing intervening with that. And that demonstrates a lack of like, mental and psychological adaptability, which in the construct in which we find ourselves now is not a strength. Like, that's a huge weakness.

• 54:31Caroline Burckle?

  This is a funny Florida story. For what it's worth, they did a great job of this at Florida. They would toss obstacles in left and right of things that could go wrong. So, you know, we'd show up at the pool deck, 2:45, and he'd be like, "Everyone go home. Come back at 1 a.m. We're doing a test set at 1 a.m." or, you know, whatever it may be.

• 54:52Rich Roll?

  That's smart. Yeah.

• 54:54Caroline Burckle?

  Super smart. And he used to, at one point, I think they cut, one of the managers went in and like, cut some of our practice suits. So, we got to the pool and like, we didn't have suits. So, we had to like, figure out what to do to find a suit. And, you know, it's like, it's like literally a scavenger hunt.

• 55:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:11Caroline Burckle?

  To figure that out, and then also be back by 3:30 or whatever. So, you're like, busting home, like digging through your old crap, like finding a suit, busting back, or like, going to the football weight room because the managers have the boxes there of extra suits. And they're like, everyone's digging through it, you know? And it's like, stuff like that is actually helping athletes learn how to adapt.

• 55:30Rich Roll?

  Resiliency.

• 55:30Caroline Burckle?

  You know, we didn't have a pandemic, but we all had our own individual things going on. And, you know, I had my own individual things going on. Everyone else had their own individual things going on. But when you're doing it collectively too, if you're a team athlete, or you're on a team, it's like, you work together and you can create that way of overcoming this obstacle. And it worked. I mean, because what's going to happen when you're flying to NCAAs and your flight's canceled? You got to get on a flight in the morning.

• 55:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, can you roll with it?

• 55:57Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly. Be ready to rock at, you know, 4 p.m. for your first night relay, or whatever it was, you know? And that ended up happening to us. And it happened to my brother at NCAAs their senior year. I don't know if you remember this, but the whole plane got norovirus. So, it's another situation like this. So, Stanford was on the plane, Texas was on the plane, and Arizona was on the plane. And it was literally, the whole plane was the three men's teams. And as you know, NCAA, there's like, eight or nine per team. So, it's not, you know, they're not taking up the whole plane, let's put it that way. They get norovirus, all of them.

• 56:35Caroline Burckle?

  They get to the meat and it had like widespread like after the first day, everyone, you know, was spreading it, getting it. So they postpone NCAA.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  What is norovirus?

• 56:45Caroline Burckle?

  That was, that was just another, it was just another kind of virus that's very contagious. It makes you throw up like nonstop. So, you know, they're all very sick and they postponed NCAA's. Men's NCAA's, my brother's senior year at Ohio State, they postponed for two days. So the whole, all the fans were there, the crowds were there, the people that didn't get it have two extra days, you know, and by the time they ended up swimming it, my brother had eaten a peanut butter sandwich in, in four days and he still wins the men's two inner breast, you know, but it's like to go through this process, I remember him just being like, I'm really grateful. And he was at Arizona for this, at this time, but I'm really grateful for what we had to do at Florida for some of this stuff because it was tossed in our faces that we had to overcome crap that would, even the littlest

• 57:30Caroline Burckle?

  of things, you know, so there is something to be said about, you know, creating some sort of obstacle that's safe.

• 57:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, it's like, did you, did you see the Tiger Woods documentary?

• 57:43Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 57:44Rich Roll?

  So when his dad is like making noises, you know, when he's a kid, like just trying to distract him every time he would swing.

• 57:49Caroline Burckle?

  Like Happy Gilmore?

• 57:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:51Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. Come on, you guys know it's.

• 57:54Chris Hauth?

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:54Caroline Burckle?

  I'm serious.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  We could do two hours on that documentary alone.

• 57:57Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. But that's also with the self curated events this past year is sort of, and I was telling a lot of my athletes, like what you build yourself and what we're executing on here, then when the event, that's all manicured and curated for you and you have support and aid stations and finish lines and perfect transition areas or perfect aid stations or then you can apply your energy completely differently, right? Because now you've done it when it's harder and you had to figure it out on your own and you sort of still did it and still did your distance or still did the pace you wanted or still did the event you wanted. But now, when it's nice and clean and shiny for you, now we can really put something together. Whereas, you know, if they just sat around for a year and did

• 58:42Chris Hauth?

  not use that opportunity once again.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  I think that, that's a, an appropriate kind of place to segue into something you were talking about in your podcast the other day, which is this idea, well, two ideas. First being,

• 58:57Rich Roll?

  To think about not just working out, but working in, which is kind of what we've already been talking about, but also this idea of showing up is not enough. Like, where is the intentionality that you're bringing to what it is that you're doing? And of course, this is something that's applicable to any athlete, how they're approaching their training regimen, but in life, to whatever it is that we're doing, particularly now where everything has been upended and it's causing confusion and anxiety and we're all kind of asking ourselves questions about like, why am I doing this? Like, you know, we're all being... Reevaluating. Yeah, we're all, everybody's reevaluating in their own way right now.

• 59:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, but that's part of what I go into there, and that is, you know, once you have your purpose and your clarity, you can show up with intention because you're not questioning the goals, you're not questioning the path, and I can focus all your intention onto executing the next workout, the next day at work, this project to the best of your ability because you're not wondering, well, why am I? You don't want to be asking, why am I doing this? That takes everything that you have in that workout, or in that project, or that vacation with your family, you show up with intention too. Like, if you start wondering, why am I here? You're not going to have a good vacation. You're not going to have a good workout, you're not going to have a good workout, work outcome.

• 1:00:21Chris Hauth?

  And so, the big thing there is, once you have the bigger picture, the purpose, and once you have the clarity, which is what I call the coaching, the path, the manual, the sort of map, then you can execute the workout properly. You can execute your training without wondering, why am I doing this? Well, how is this going to help me? Is this keeping me on my path towards my desired outcome? And is this what the coach and I discussed? It's all been laid out already, and we know that from swimming. We're just so ingrained in this that we don't, well, of course, these 400 IMs are helping me swim my 400 IM better. Of course, this set of 200s with the middle 100 fly is helping me swim my 400 IM better.

• 1:01:05Chris Hauth?

  But in the endurance training world, or in just in the work world, if you don't know where you're heading and why you're doing it, the quality of your work is always going to be... Limited because you're just constantly wasting cognitive energy, cognitive load, as they call it, on other things in order to make it more intentional and clear for you. Once you have that out, you can hit flow. You can, you're right in the moment because you're not worried about all the other things because they've been clarified for you.

• 1:01:36Caroline Burckle?

  That makes me think about some questions I get asked from athletes in general, like 13 to 18 year old age range. Well, what does it mean to set an intention? Or, you know, like the, the concept is very new and I think.

• 1:01:54Chris Hauth?

  Most don't know.

• 1:01:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not limited to 13 to 18 year olds.

• 1:01:57Chris Hauth?

  Most adults that I work with don't know what that means.

• 1:01:59Caroline Burckle?

  Right. And it's a very, I don't want to say nuanced, I mean, maybe, you know, but to have the intention, the word intention, I think it's confusing to people because it's like, well, I mean, I know why I want to be here. And it's like, well, why? You know, you have to kind of dig a few layers deeper.

• 1:02:18Caroline Burckle?

  But I get asked that question a lot and it does make me wonder, what would it be like to have a buffer on each end of a workout?

• 1:02:27Caroline Burckle?

  10 minutes before and 10 minutes after to where you come in and you literally lay on the floor and breathe and set your intention for the workout. You do the thing and then you get out and you lay back down on the floor and you breathe and you set your intention moving forward. Like I think about this stuff all the time.

• 1:02:44Rich Roll?

  You do an inventory of what just occurred and did you live up to the intention that you set for that?

• 1:02:49Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:02:50Chris Hauth?

  And it's intended. It's not perfect. It's intended. I am coming into this with an intention to do X, Y, Z to the best of my current abilities. It doesn't mean I have to do it perfectly. It doesn't mean I always have to achieve it. But my focus towards that intention was.

• 1:03:09Chris Hauth?

  Clear and I did the best to my current abilities. Current is very important because we judge ourselves on our future person, not who we are in the now. And therefore, I can finish that, look back, and I get a little dopamine hit every time I hit an intention successfully. My walls today, I swam butterfly. Like, we're just, we keep coming back to swimming because it's easy for us to highlight. But I swam my butterflies every second breath. I didn't do every single breath, right? For the whole workout, an easy intention. So that's an example of an intention for running workout. I want to make sure that my stride is behind me and my heels are kicking up high the entire workout. Regardless of anything else,

• 1:03:52Chris Hauth?

  I want to make sure that I do the rest interval today properly. I'm not going to jog it. I'm literally going to sit down, center myself, and prepare myself for the next best possible interval. All those are little intentions on how you get a workout done. And afterwards, you go, well, it wasn't necessarily that I feel so much different from a physical standpoint, but my sense of accomplishment, my sense of execution is so much more powerful and it allows me to move on from that workout. And it's such a better, more positive place. I can now focus on work. I can now focus on family. I can now focus on school. Because I checked off all my intentions successfully. Close that, move on.

• 1:04:36Chris Hauth?

  And we carry so much with us, especially as younger athletes, into the next thing, like, oh, I probably could have done that better. But that, like you said, 10 minutes before, 10 minutes after is perfect because then we can just put that behind us, driving from the workout back to the, back home, driving from the workout or walking to school.

• 1:04:55Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Chris Hauth?

  And creating that buffer and then going, you know what? That was good. That was good enough. It was good to my expectations, my intentions I set prior. And now I'm going to do it better this afternoon or tomorrow. But for now, I'm going to set the next intentions for school, for work, for family.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  But precedent to that, of course, is the clarity piece, right? Like, if you don't have clarity about why you're doing what you're doing, what the broader goal is, then it becomes difficult to identify that intention piece. And I think where some confusion around intentionality comes in. Is that it can be defined in a macro context or in a micro like, yes, I'm going to work on my walls in my workout like a micro, you know, intention. But the broader intentionality, like I'm going to express my potential as an athlete, that can be an intention also. But that becomes very vague, right? Like that's more, I think that that speaks more to the clarity piece about identity and like your values.

• 1:05:57Rich Roll?

  And intentionality on the day in, day out, I'm writing in my journal or I'm doing, you know, I'm like, I'm practicing this, you know, mental habit of being in the mindset of intention focused, I think, works best when you are specific about, you know, little things.

• 1:06:18Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. And you nailed it. Like there's micro and macro and it can get confusing when it's like, well, my intention, I've had athletes say.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  My intention is to be awesome.

• 1:06:27Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. Or like, I want to go to the Olympics, but then wait, isn't that a goal? Or like, what do you mean by intention? And so it is something to clarify. They're great questions. And I, I honestly get humbled that they're asking because it's like, oh, wow. Like I, I could even explore that a little bit more. I, maybe I need to understand the difference between intention and goal setting or understanding, you know, micro intentions and macro intentions. Because it is, we attach meanings to words too. So, you know, whatever we attach to the word intention will be our trajectory of that. Like you said, if intention is to someone, if intention's yoga and saying, you know, your om's before and after yoga. And that's their view of what an intention is, then we have to dissect, you know, kind of dissect what that is because, because they are a swimmer and they need to learn it maybe a different way to do that.

• 1:07:13Caroline Burckle?

  These are just questions I get and things that I, that I hear. And I think it's very interesting because it allows us to explore different avenues of what people identify with. Intentionality and their purpose and their reason for doing the sport that they're doing or, or competing or performing and whatever they're doing.

• 1:07:28Chris Hauth?

  Exactly. Spending so much time on something, but I bring it back to a deeper purpose and what I call the deeper why. If you don't have your deeper why, and many, I, I'm. All my athletes go through this exercise every year. And it takes four, six, seven, eight tries for them to get to their deeper why. The cliche is, I want to be a good role model for my kids. Well, guess what? Your kids are not up at 4:00 AM when you need to get out of bed and get this workout done. So they're not seeing you. I want to be a good role model. I want to be visible, show them how hard I work. Well, that doesn't work.

• 1:08:02Rich Roll?

  I think that's usually disingenuous. Also, because it's taking so much time away from your kid. Like, probably harming your kid more than inspiring them.

• 1:08:09Chris Hauth?

  But to me, that's not, and I challenge them, that's not your deeper why. Like, when, when things get difficult and when the excuses rise, you need your deeper why, that anchor, to sort of work you through those rainy mornings when you don't want to get up. There's nobody watching you there. You need to be anchored in something. And the deeper why, it goes, if you keep asking that why enough, it goes to a pretty vulnerable place. But if you understand that, right? And that validation, that lack of attention that you got as a child, that, you know, there's so many different things in here. I'd want to be visible. I want to be visible. And when I'm, when I'm out there training, people recognize me.

• 1:08:53Chris Hauth?

  Well, good, okay, now let's start working from there. I mean, again, you're right. It is a lot of life coaching, but it makes them better athletes.

• 1:09:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I would, I would assume that a person's, an individual's ability to answer that question well correlates pretty closely to how well self-integrated they are. Like, if you have, if you've done enough interior work, then you are, you know, you're able to like, you know, feel yourself in a way where you're going to be able to honestly answer that question. But if you're just, if you're, if you've, if you've never explored your interior self, then you're going to have the flip. Answer.

• 1:09:34Chris Hauth?

  But that's why I love endurance training.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Which is why this is life coaching and you have become a life coach. I mean, listen, Chris, if somebody had asked you at age, you know, 19 or 20 or however old you were when you were getting ready to go to the Olympics, like, what's your why? You would have told them to fuck off.

• 1:09:49Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I would have. Well, but that's the thing is I did have some work in there and I still ignored it.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  And I'm not saying that you're. I'm not saying that you're unique in that. I would say most, you know, 19, 20 year old out is like.

• 1:10:02Caroline Burckle?

  Mine was like, well, I just, because I don't want anyone to be mad.

• 1:10:06Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Caroline Burckle?

  You know, so it's like the why can be something totally interesting too.

• 1:10:10Chris Hauth?

  And it's different when I'm 19.

• 1:10:11Caroline Burckle?

  Someone's why could be.

• 1:10:12Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, that's why your deeper why at 18 is different than your deeper why at 28 is different than my deeper why now.

• 1:10:19Caroline Burckle?

  You gotta unlearn the conditioning.

• 1:10:20Chris Hauth?

  The tears that ran down my face when I finally won Kona wasn't because I finally won Kona. It was like, oh my gosh, I just stripped back a lot of.

• 1:10:30Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:30Chris Hauth?

  Emotions that were lurking, that I was hiding behind in this training.

• 1:10:35Caroline Burckle?

  Yep.

• 1:10:35Chris Hauth?

  And it was like, oh my God, now that's gone and I'm stuck still with myself.

• 1:10:41Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, we're going there.

• 1:10:42Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, but that's also why I love endurance training.

• 1:10:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Chris Hauth?

  Is that it forces people to spend time with themselves.

• 1:10:49Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Chris Hauth?

  And the Z2 aspect, you and I texted a little bit about this. What I love about it too is when you have to go that easy, you have to learn patience.

• 1:10:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Chris Hauth?

  You have to forgive yourself and you open the door to like letting go. And then.

• 1:11:05Rich Roll?

  And you have to let go of your ego.

• 1:11:06Chris Hauth?

  You have to let go of your ego. When you let go of your ego, all of a sudden you're spending a lot of time in working in instead of working out because you don't feel this is a workout. It's too easy. I'm barely breaking a sweat. Everybody's walking past me and I'm supposedly running, right? But that vulnerability right there, that cracks the door open.

• 1:11:25Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:25Chris Hauth?

  Very gently.

• 1:11:26Rich Roll?

  But how do you? You mentioned a minute ago, like, the outpouring of emotion when you won Kona, and the realization that you had been using your training to kind of run away from certain aspects of yourself. Clearly, in endurance sports, you're gonna have the person who's, who is in it to like, you know, as a buffer to prevent having to look at them. You know, it's like, you can, it can be a healthy path towards self-actualization, or it can be quite the opposite. And as somebody who's coached a lot of people, I'm sure you've seen

• 1:11:57Chris Hauth?

  I wrote a newsletter.

• 1:11:58Rich Roll?

  Every variety of that, like, how do you identify? There's a newsletter on it.

• 1:12:01Chris Hauth?

  Just today. Spiritual bypassing.

• 1:12:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, you're, you just don't, you don't wanna go home because there's, you know, you're not getting along with your partner or whatever. It's so real, yes.

• 1:12:10Chris Hauth?

  What are you running from? Yeah. And we, we get this instant validation of doing something really hard because it's the training, right? We just ran this far, we swam this far, we biked this far, we rocked this far, but it's still below the surface, it's still the same issues. Right? And you, you eventually, eventually, you can't avoid it. Like, you have to turn around and quit facing the sun and look back at the shadow. Because it's there, it's always there, it's always sitting there, bubbling below the surface. And as I wrote today, you know, you gotta go through the mud in order to get there. And the mud, and unfortunately, not unfortunately, I can't even use that word properly.

• 1:12:54Chris Hauth?

  When I had that with Kona, it was like, you know, it was the validation that I could, that I was missing so much with swimming, and that I was never good enough, and now I'm good enough, but to find good enough, and it leaves me in the same exact place.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  You're still the same guy. Yeah.

• 1:13:11Chris Hauth?

  Exactly. And it's what we talk about with goal-setting in general. Like, great, you got to point B, now you're at point B.

• 1:13:18Caroline Burckle?

  Right, so now, there's always going to be a now what.

• 1:13:21Chris Hauth?

  Point C, point D. So that's why the deeper why and a purpose ties into it. Then goals just become validation markers along the path, your path, to where you are going as a human being. And many of us don't really know where that path leads. But once you start walking, that path starts unfolding for you. And you can't manipulate how that path, where it's going to turn. You just have to take that path and trust yourself and believe in your past narrative that it's worked for you so far. Keep doing the work and the path as it was meant to unfold for you will unfold for you.

• 1:14:03Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, trusting that. It's a hard thing to think about. I actually had this conversation with Luke Tybersky, who was on your podcast a while ago, just about the whole running from the, your emotions and what's going on in your life and everything. And, and, I mean, I could talk about this for hours. But what you're saying is it really resonates because I think a lot of people think you, it's an either or, like you have to either face your demons and quit everything you're doing, or just keep going and ignore it until you finally break. And I firmly believe that you can do both. It's, it's like you're going to work to understand yourself and what it is that your why is.

• 1:14:45Chris Hauth?

  I love that.

• 1:14:46Caroline Burckle?

  And understand it. And again, going back to what I was saying at the beginning is I'm in this place where I'm really exploring how we can make both things possible. Because as an extremist in my mindset my whole life, you know, oh, it's either or. You can't, it's not a both and thing. It's either or, like I either need to be doing this or I need to be doing this. I either need to be facing my demons and quit everything, or I need to be, you know,

• 1:15:08Chris Hauth?

  Or also make it harder on myself, right? Like I'm going to face my demons and therefore work my, yeah.

• 1:15:13Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:15:14Chris Hauth?

  No, that's not going to be helpful either. You sort of have to work with both personas within you. Like we all have the yin and yang, the chaos and order, the whole, it's always within us. And the more we become vulnerable to accept that, that there are days where I'm just facing the shadow. And there's days I'm facing the sun, but it's, I'm still there. And so, and again, our opportunity every day to work.

• 1:15:43Chris Hauth?

  With that a little bit is what I love about training. Because again, working in versus working out, this isn't just for our body. This is for our mind and our spirit every day too. And the more we recognize that, the more you can click into it. Fifteen, twenty minutes into a run, fifteen, twenty minutes into a swim, where your mind starts wandering and the ego is suppressed and the subconscious comes arises. And you are having a different conversation with yourself. And it is very powerful. If you can click into that two, three, four, five times a week, it's amazing.

• 1:16:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think intentionality can be applied not just in the context of what you're trying to get out of a training session in terms of, you know, technique and fitness. Oh, I'm gonna make sure that I'm, you know, striking in this way or, you know, holding my shoulders in a certain way. But also on the working out and working in piece to say, I'm going to use this time to take control of that conversation in my head and not just allow it to be. Sometimes it's good for it to just to be in that ruminative space because stuff comes up. But other times I found like, I'm gonna be more directed about this like,

• 1:17:03Rich Roll?

  and really focus or think about or direct my mental energy around being honest with myself about what it is that I'm avoiding right now. Like what, like, oh, I want to go out and do this session.

• 1:17:16Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:16Rich Roll?

  Because why, right? Like, because I don't really feel like answering all those emails. It can be as simple as that. Or it can be like, I had this thing with this person and it's been bugging me and that's why I didn't sleep well last night. Like, where's my part in that? Like, where's, what character defect keeps like recurring? That's causing this kind of issue? Because this isn't the first time I've had an, you know, like, there's a whole opportunity there to explore, right? And I think to the extent that you can like leverage the working in part of working out for self-improvement, like, it's just, it's such an unbelievably powerful template for that. But I think it all begins.

• 1:17:56Rich Roll?

  With being honest with yourself about whether your your interest in exploring whatever fitness journey you're on is to is is coming from a place of avoidance or curiosity and exploration, right? And I think most people don't even ask themselves that question. If you can't be honest, like, and it's okay if you're using it to run to like, I look, it's so uncomfortable over here. I want to go over here for a while like, that's fine. There's no judgment on that. But I think recognizing that is the first step towards moving, moving in the direction of resolving whatever psychological,

• 1:18:36Rich Roll?

  mental, emotional, spiritual conundrum that you're facing and that we all face. Chris is gonna disagree.

• 1:18:45Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the first step. Because I think curiosity and exploration gets you out there and starts setting up your future goals and your future version of yourself that you desire to be. Potential comes from a sense of curiosity and exploration, right? Because I'm curious about my potential of who I could be. I have things inside of me, signals, emotions inside of me that I still want to express as an athlete or in any, in any realm. And as you're on that journey, I think that's also a time where it bubbles up. Where you start realizing, huh, oh, I'm sort of avoiding things.

• 1:19:29Chris Hauth?

  But I think it's important to take that first step down the path and start getting out there, whether it's in training or whether it's in mindfulness, whether it's in any type of other sort of work with a therapist and so forth. It's more about.

• 1:19:47Chris Hauth?

  Tapping into the curiosity and following that string. And then I think the avoidance question can start coming up. Then the time with working in can start coming up because again, the scaffolding is set. And what I mean by that is when we start training, especially as masters athletes, not when we're younger, but as the training is a scaffolding. What happens inside that scaffolding is unique to everybody. I might be doing a lot of mental work. Other people might be doing physical work. Other people are doing spiritual work. The training is the placeholder. And what's being rebuilt in that building? Is it a complete rebuild?

• 1:20:31Chris Hauth?

  Is it some sort of remodeling? Right? But the training sets up the opportunity every day to spend time with yourself. And you might not want to go in that day. You might just sort of, you know, do a little paint job. But other days you're like knocking down walls and you are doing some serious work inside and the tears come or the aha moment comes and you're like, wow, I hadn't realized how badly I'm avoiding. Or, you know, you're listening to a podcast and something you say, for example, just trigger something, boom, pause the podcast, keep rolling and just work with that sentence or with that emotion that just came up. But again, I think it's important

• 1:21:17Chris Hauth?

  that that curiosity sets up the training, the scaffolding, so that you have an opportunity every day or every few days, if you're not training every day, to sort of do that working in and working out.

• 1:21:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. I think that's right.

• 1:21:33Caroline Burckle?

  For sure. And I'm going to throw another thought in here. And this is only because I had a different way of feeling my way through my sport. And even after experiencing conversations, after our last conversation, Rich, just of the power of what people experience through their bodies that they're not listening to. You know, sure, you have people that don't feel injuries or don't hurt ever. And I mean, I would love to know who that is. Please tell me your secrets. No, but the main thing that I notice is Like, how can you really go in and tap in and understand what it is that you're doing, avoiding or curi-, you know, like which direction I'm going if you're actually not even

• 1:22:18Caroline Burckle?

  present in your physical self? And I think that can be the first sign is learning how to connect to our actual physical beings to see where we feel completely disconnected from ourselves. And that can be in training where you're literally, you feel disconnected in training. I mean, I, that was my favorite term when I felt off was, I just feel disconnected. Like, my arms feel like they're doing something completely different from my legs and my body is feeling exhausted, fatigued. I'm having weird dreams and night sweat, all these things. And it's like, those things tell me what I'm avoiding. So that can be a cue into kind of what's happening. And I think there's a lot of intellectual athletes and then there's a lot of somatic

• 1:23:03Caroline Burckle?

  and sensory athletes. And I think speaking to both in this space, like if I can speak to the sensory side where it's like, you feel something off, don't ignore that. Tap into that and go into that and understand where am I sitting right now? Am I avoiding? Or am I actually doing something because I want to? Or, you know, what is it, what's, what is my why? Back to that question again. I think a lot of people use that as information and it is a powerful tool that I think we forget and we quickly try to jump to the mind and like what it is that we just know how to do and what we've heard and like what other people are doing, if that makes sense. So really getting to know ourselves because I'm gonna be different from you, I'm gonna be different from Rich, Rich is different from you, you're different from Rich.

• 1:23:46Caroline Burckle?

  And so it's like, however, what works for one person may not work for the other. But, you know, integrating the things that you hear and the things that you learn, experience in a way that does allow you to better yourself and kind of figure out what path you're on, if that makes sense.

• 1:24:01Chris Hauth?

  Well, we're holding a lot too.

• 1:24:03Caroline Burckle?

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:24:04Chris Hauth?

  We're holding and being able to recognize, and again, There's, there's going to be many people who are like, not ready for that. Don't hear anything, don't feel anything. I've tried working in, it's just not there. And that's totally fine.

• 1:24:18Caroline Burckle?

  Yep.

• 1:24:19Chris Hauth?

  Again, it will happen when it's time to happen.

• 1:24:22Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly.

• 1:24:22Chris Hauth?

  Right? Right. It took me a long time.

• 1:24:25Caroline Burckle?

  And it may not even happen in a way of awareness. It may kind of go up, you know, up in a loop and back around and they figure it out from a different avenue.

• 1:24:32Chris Hauth?

  In the face with a, you know, a pandemic.

• 1:24:34Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:24:35Chris Hauth?

  Or some sort of traumatic experience and boom, it all on those. I mean, everybody has, it's, we're all so similar in so many ways. It's just we're on a different journey. But we're all going the same place and that is our path.

• 1:24:58Rich Roll?

  One of the underappreciated aspects of fitness and why as human beings we're drawn to it is that it's one of the few things, and increasingly so now, where we can just be completely present with ourselves. Right? You have to be in the now to like, do the thing. So whether you're Alex Honnold, you know, hanging on the side of a hook cap without ropes, or you're trying to maintain a certain pace in a set of 100s. It doesn't matter. Like, when you hit a certain sort of pain threshold or exertion level, you can't be thinking about anything else other than just executing on what you're doing. And it forces like, you to just be with yourself.

• 1:25:43Rich Roll?

  And there's something incredible about that. Like, I just got this cold plunge recently and I've started cold plunging. And, and, and, you know, I was realizing as I was doing it, I was like, oh, people love this because when you're freezing fucking cold, like, you can't think about anything else. You're just like, present with yourself. Like, it accelerates that. You're like, immediately you drop into that. You don't have to like, meditate for 20 minutes or go out on a three hour run. Like, you, it allows you to drop right into that experience. And I think that there's power in that. But I think that's the beautiful aspect of, of sport. And maybe we're like, we don't even know that that's why we're pulled towards it. But.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  But I think when the more you can kind of recognize that, that's where that little like, that like nuclear reactor sits in the middle for change in other aspects of your life.

• 1:26:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and I think what we're, what we're talking around here is, again, that curiosity to be on a, on a, on an edge of what you deem possible and that challenge skill sweet spot, like when you're saying, holding a certain set. We want to know, we're always curious about next, about potential. We're just forward driving creatures. I mean, that's in our DNA. And so being in that challenge skill sweet spot allows us to be fully present. Because if we're not challenged, you're gonna wander.

• 1:27:09Rich Roll?

  Or if it's too challenging, then the whole thing falls apart, right?

• 1:27:14Chris Hauth?

  But it's gotta be right there, and that's where you're present. Exactly. That's where Alex Honnold is, he's, he's not bored.

• 1:27:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, he's talked about that very thing many, many times. Yeah. Yeah, it's that incremental, you know, push.

• 1:27:28Chris Hauth?

  And I think there's a constant, I mean, neurochemistry just there with all the dopamine hits and all the things that are happening in your body and mind, that when you're right in that sweet spot, that sets up that, you know, complete presence. Because you have to, you, you need all your cognitive load towards that, which brings us back to intention, which why you need the deeper why and have clarity, so that you can get into that space and you set your challenge skill spot because via the clarity and the goal setting, you are now able to drop into intention properly.

• 1:28:00Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. That's why there should be buffers on each end of practice.

• 1:28:03Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:04Caroline Burckle?

  I'm, I'm just, I, I think about it so much, just about how that would have been so powerful to have that sandwiched in there, where...

• 1:28:12Chris Hauth?

  Especially for us as swimmers in college, or in high school as well, if it just became part of our routine. Because we were so routine oriented, it's like, of course I do five minutes of setting intentions before I wear...

• 1:28:24Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, you don't even really understand that.

• 1:28:26Chris Hauth?

  And then when you're 50, you're still doing it for every little thing, like, how do I want my day to go?

• 1:28:30Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. Well, I, I think I could imagine walking on the pool deck in University of Florida... And being terrified for the workout that was about to happen. You know, so all the things that you're carrying into workout and then when you leave the things that you're carrying out, it's like, if that can somehow be streamlined into maybe a way to transition better, I think we could all get into these places of this narrow road that we want to be on with intentionality a little bit better because it just becomes an experience that you're used to after a while. You don't even think about, okay, now I'm setting an intention. Like you don't do that. It just becomes a natural thing that you do.

• 1:29:09Chris Hauth?

  How do I want this to go?

• 1:29:10Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly.

• 1:29:11Chris Hauth?

  It's a constant conversation in my head. Like, how do I want this to go? How do I want tomorrow to go? How do I want this next?

• 1:29:17Caroline Burckle?

  And it's natural. It doesn't feel like a forced pressuring situation with yourself anymore. The conversation is just a natural conversation with yourself.

• 1:29:27Chris Hauth?

  And the beauty is, there's no judgment with it. If it's automated, or if it's part of what you do anyway, then you don't judge yourself when it didn't go well, or you didn't achieve your intentions. Because guess what? I'm going to set intentions for something later on today, or for tomorrow, or so that because you have the reps, you know that it's not going to be perfect. And so the judgment comes out of so much of this because you're like, you know what? I did pretty good today. I got three of my five intentions.

• 1:29:55Caroline Burckle?

  Uh huh. Great. And transitioning into real life after sport, that's very helpful.

• 1:29:59Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:00Caroline Burckle?

  Whereas you're judging yourself nonstop, or nothing's enough, and this, and this, and this, instead of being able to cultivate that while you're an athlete.

• 1:30:08Chris Hauth?

  And powering through, the whole narrative we have as kids and young adults growing up as athletes, just, oh, just power through. And back to the signals and what your body's telling you, and what your mind's telling you, and all that, like, that emotional intelligence that we're missing there, of course, there's a maturity aspect, I get that. But it can definitely be guided a little bit better, right? And one of the things I say in my coaching is, I want to set the conditions for success. That's the buffers. Like, you're setting the lane, so that even if you hit the wall on the side a little bit, you're still going back on the lane. And setting the conditions for our young athlete's success is part of this, of like, you know what? What is it you want to achieve today?

• 1:30:52Chris Hauth?

  And look, you achieved it. Now let's move on to the next day. And sort of, once they're done with that athletic, their athletic lives, that they can sort of say, oh, well, now I can still take all these skills. And I'm actually ahead because I know how to do all this.

• 1:31:06Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Chris Hauth?

  Setting the conditions for their future success. I mean, it's such a brutal transition.

• 1:31:12Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, my gosh. I, that's the goal.

• 1:31:14Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:15Rich Roll?

  Right. The, the idea of being, that intuition that you develop, like, we've talked about this before, but like, when you're, when you're swimming all the time, it's like, if you're doing a set of hundreds, like, you know when your finger hits the wall, you know exactly what your split is, and you know what your heart rate is. Like, you're so connected, right? You're like, oh, that was, that was definitely a fifty.

• 1:31:35Chris Hauth?

  We have nothing else to do in the pool. And it's like staring at a black line. Like, everybody else has nature to look at.

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  But another thought with that, like, the average person is gonna say, I don't know how you swim that much. Like, you're four hours a day staring at the black line? Like, it's so boring. But when you bring intention to it, there's nothing boring about it. Like, when you break, oh, I'm gonna do this crazy set. Like, I'm scared, I'm nervous, I have anticipation, I have dread, maybe, all of these emotions. But like, boredom isn't really part of it because there's so much packed into whatever's gonna happen in that two hour. You're not just jumping in the pool and swimming back and forth, like, aimlessly, without any plan or anything like that. So like, just abusing people of that idea. But then, you set the intention, that creates empowerment and agency because you're not

• 1:32:24Rich Roll?

  just reacting, the coach says, do this, and you do, you just respond and do it. You're trying to inject that experience with, you know, an added veneer of like, of, you know, how you wanna come out of it. Like, you're taking control of it, right? As opposed to just, you know, reacting and doing what somebody else tells you to do. But on that piece of like, moving into the real world, like, if you can take that, that highly integrated, very attuned, you know, mind-body connection that you have when you're at the peak of sport, and apply that to like, the workplace. Like, when you were talking about this somatic, you know, a feeling athlete, like, if you go into your work and like, you're like, I feel off.

• 1:33:08Rich Roll?

  Like, not just saying, we'll tough it out or whatever, but like, what is this telling me? Like, what is off? Like, maybe I should value that a little bit more. It's much more of a feminine energy.

• 1:33:17Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  Like dudes are like. I don't want to hear about this, but if you can really listen to that and try to understand what it's telling you in the way that you would as an athlete at the elite level, what would that mean? And you know, how would that translate into how you're experiencing your life?

• 1:33:35Caroline Burckle?

  I had a really interesting conversation about this yesterday, actually, speaking of this with my therapist. We were talking about transitioning from sport and how, again...

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  Which is something Chris is never going to do, by the way.

• 1:33:50Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, he's gonna be literally 100.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  He's like, I don't want to, I don't need to listen to this.

• 1:33:53Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, like, he's like, I'm done. What are you guys talking about? Yeah. But, you know, we were talking, we were essentially talking about how the same things we've been talking about, the grind, the go, go, go, I'm gonna crush this and, you know, power through, all these things that make us great athletes also make us great in the workplace, because you get a lot of shit done on a great timeline.

• 1:34:17Chris Hauth?

  And you get validated for it by your peers.

• 1:34:19Caroline Burckle?

  Right, you get validated for it, but then the same thing happens and you hit the wall and you burn out and you get tired and you don't want to look at social media and you have nothing to say and there's just, you know, all of the same things continue to happen.

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  And then you go to your boss and say, I need a rest week.

• 1:34:34Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly. And then that doesn't work. So, right.

• 1:34:37Rich Roll?

  We gotta dial back my hours.

• 1:34:39Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, we're cutting back two hours a week.

• 1:34:42Chris Hauth?

  That's a product we should figure out how to integrate into this normal conversation.

• 1:34:47Rich Roll?

  We need to periodize my work schedule.

• 1:34:50Caroline Burckle?

  But it's so real, like, you know, but it's like, again, the two things of both and, it's like, both can be true. You can work your ass off in the workplace or get whatever done you want to get done and create this business and build all these things. But at the same time, the same rules apply.

• 1:35:05Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:06Caroline Burckle?

  The same things apply. And so this middle space of that transition point where we become disconnected from understanding how to tap into that feeling, I've seen it across the board with all of my peers that have retired from professional sport. They go ham into their life, whatever it is, and eventually this continues to happen. So the question is, and I still haven't figured this out, I don't think anyone's gonna figure anything out, but like, what is the... What's that transition space that you can allow people to know that they can still be great and power through and push it, but also take the rest, take the time to understand yourself, what your needs are before you do end up gassed out on the side of the road

• 1:35:49Caroline Burckle?

  again and the cycle continues and you're still running from your emotions and you're still doing things.

• 1:35:54Rich Roll?

  Well, I think as a coach, you can shoulder that responsibility and create that partnership dynamic with the athletes that you're working with, right? Like, I would, I would suspect that that's going to break down between the people who, like that athlete who's making that transition, if that athlete had a coach that just told them what to do and they either did it or they were out, that person's going to have a harder time as opposed to the coach athlete partnership where there's a, there's a communication and there's a back and forth and that's a dynamic relationship, that person is going to be much more adaptable to a changing environment, right?

• 1:36:31Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Caroline Burckle?

  Conditions again, yeah, conditioned responses.

• 1:36:34Chris Hauth?

  I like to say how you do one thing is how you do everything. And so it starts with those, like you said, with if that's how you were as an athlete, it's going to exactly carry over into the rest of your life. But I think it's back to a control thing because we want to control the outcome in, in swimming, in sports, in athletics, because we've been conditioned and we've had past narrative and validation of this, that you, by doing this today, you're controlling your future outcome. The further we get into life, we realize there's no controlling the future outcome. You can work at it, you can help guide yourself in that direction, but there's still so much that can happen. There is no control.

• 1:37:17Chris Hauth?

  And doing everything, especially in the work world or as adults, with the outcome and success in mind, and that's the only reason you're going to do it, sets you up for failure, right? You can't just take on an endeavor. Knowing guaranteeing success. Oh, if I hire a coach, let's say I see it in my world. I am hiring you to guarantee my success. And I say to them, no, that's not going to work.

• 1:37:44Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:37:45Chris Hauth?

  You know, first of all, you have to do the work. And second of all, I don't want you on this journey if you're doing it with an outcome in mind.

• 1:37:51Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:37:52Chris Hauth?

  And so if we learn earlier on to let go of control and be more vulnerable. And again, allow this path to sort of unfold for us. And I know the commentary around this is always like, Chris, life doesn't work like that. Where you just say, the path will unfold for you.

• 1:38:09Rich Roll?

  Actually, it does work that way.

• 1:38:11Chris Hauth?

  It does work, but it's hard to understand that. And all I'm saying is we can't try to manipulate the path. We can do the best in the present moment to continue with our best foot forward on that path. And that's trusting ourselves. Too often in as athletes, all our life up until we're 18, 19, we didn't trust ourselves. We trust what the coach told us or what the system told us. Or this is how you're going to get through. You get it from states, the national, the regional, you know, and that's how you work. You don't have to trust yourself, but in the real world, you have to trust yourself. You have to believe in yourself and just trust that the work that you're doing

• 1:38:53Chris Hauth?

  and that the path you're taking will lead you eventually to where you need to go.

• 1:38:58Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, it's a worthiness thing, too. Knowing that you don't need to be validated from that to feel like you're worth a damn. And that's a big thing that I hear from a lot of retired athletes. We do webinars and I don't know if webinar is the right word. Powwow kind of things in our space where we have a group of retired athletes come in and we all have a conversation about this, just the transition. And it's incredible to see everyone feel very similar about their worthiness. And if they accomplish X, Y, Z in their career or in their. You know, projected family life or in there, you know, we buy the house, we do this, or I get this raise, or I make this, or I start my own business. It's like, it's all

• 1:39:43Caroline Burckle?

  this feeling of, well, that's an accomplishment. And that's what I'm used to because that's what I was conditioned to believe about myself and my work.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  And you were loved and approved for that.

• 1:39:50Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  Right? Like, you know who Jessica Leahy is? She wrote this book called The Gift of Failure. She's an educator. And she talks about this all the time, like with, she teaches young kids. And she will, and she goes and she tours schools and she does stuff with the kids without the parents. And she'll be like, raise your hand if, like, everybody closes their eyes because she doesn't want the kids influencing each other. And like, raise your hand if, if, if you think that your parents love you more when you get better grades. And it's like 85% of the kids, right? And so as an athlete, of course, your validation is coming from performance. When you have a coach that's going to give you that approval.

• 1:40:33Rich Roll?

  And even if, you know, the, you know, even when parents are doing the best job possible, they're gonna like, when their kid does something good, they're gonna like, be excited about it, right? And so, yeah, that all gets internalized. So of course, your, your whole sense of self gets wrapped up in like, how well you're doing. And then suddenly, you graduate out of sports and you're in the real world. A, you don't have a coach anymore.

• 1:40:55Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, the accountability is low.

• 1:40:57Rich Roll?

  It's just you, right? Maybe, sometimes you do have a coach. Rarely, though. Yeah, no, I agree. In fact, that's something I think should change. Like, you know, it's like, why shouldn't we continue to have coaches our whole life for the things that we're trying to do better at? But it's unbelievably disorienting.

• 1:41:12Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, it is. And I'm a firm believer in coaching your whole life, somehow, some way, whatever realm it is. Because you need that accountability, especially if you've been raised that way to be seen, you know, for your accomplishments. Somebody that can also not just see you for your accomplishments, but help you grow out of that space of needing that validation for what it is that you've done. And it's, it's very, very difficult. I mean, you were talking about the transition. Well, we don't know, you may never transition. We were, we were talking about the transition too. It's, it's not just sports. This is across the board with any major life event. That happens, these transitions are inevitable.

• 1:41:52Caroline Burckle?

  And so, you know, I have friends that have had babies and it's like the postpartum transition. And you know, things like that are just so intense and so difficult to work through for some people, not everyone, because it is this mecca of what you set out to think that you should feel. And then it, something ends up different than what you should feel too. Then that causes some sort of depression, which a lot of athletes go through when they're transitioning. Well, I thought it was gonna be easy. I thought it was gonna be a success again. I thought I was gonna be at the top of my field right away again. Or I thought, I thought this again. And it's like, oh damn, I'm not, I gotta start over. I gotta sweep floors at Lululemon, you know, on Saturday and Sunday, like shit.

• 1:42:35Caroline Burckle?

  You know, like that isn't what I signed up for, right?

• 1:42:38Chris Hauth?

  Right, or like Lolo Jones working at the juice bar.

• 1:42:40Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly right. Oh, that documentary hit me hard with that because I could just feel her in that experience. Because there is this expectation conundrum in your head of what things will look like because of this amazing thing that you've just achieved. And so again, across the board, I think we set ourselves up in that way. And rightfully so, dream big, want great things.

• 1:43:04Chris Hauth?

  Well, it's in our DNA.

• 1:43:05Caroline Burckle?

  Exactly.

• 1:43:06Chris Hauth?

  It's in our evolution, like that you get validated for standing out in the tribe. And that those behaviors and characteristics and values allowed you to be a better member. And so it's very deep in us. But again, like you're saying, it's when you get the rug pulled out from under you, like let's say Lolo Jones example, that's a little bit different than a transition of, you know, don't get me wrong, I have plenty of athletes who come to me, I'm having a baby in six months, but after six months, it'll take me about three months to get back. And then I wanna, you know, qualify for Boston. It's like, whoa.

• 1:43:42Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:43:42Chris Hauth?

  All right, we gotta work through this a little bit differently. And I'd like you to know that that transition, like you just described, there's going to be a lot more. You are not going to be the same person on the other side of having that child than you are now. And despite what you think, You won't. You're just a different person.

• 1:44:01Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:01Chris Hauth?

  And yeah, the transitions in that space become the part that you are connected deepest to yourself. That's the vulnerability in a space where if you took the time to look into that, that there's the growth. In that mud is the growth. Right, but I just want to go to Boston, Chris. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:22Caroline Burckle?

  And that, and then you can't, there's no way you could ever shoot something like that down either. Like, I'm not going to say, well, no, that's, well, let me break it to you. You know, that's gonna be pretty tough.

• 1:44:32Chris Hauth?

  I don't shoot it down, but I say, we'll cross that bridge.

• 1:44:35Caroline Burckle?

  Of course, yeah. Like, you have to hold space for the other version of themself that's going to come out on the other end of that. Because it's going to be somebody that could even achieve more than what they've just set out to give you.

• 1:44:45Chris Hauth?

  And be the growth that is possible that I get actually excited. Because I'm like, you know what, you don't get it yet. But if you kick out on the other side of this and you can grow from this, that I have my mitts on you for the next nine months. Hopefully, you'll kick out going, oh, my gosh, I had no idea. But now I'm armed so much better for my future as a mother, as an athlete postpartum. As I can avoid a lot of physical and mental difficulties because I've been told the big secret post children. Like, it is hard, it is lonely, I'm disconnected from my body.

• 1:45:28Chris Hauth?

  I have no clue what's going on in my life. I mean, there's so much going on there. But if you have somebody that, maybe not a guy like me, but there's plenty of professionals out there to say, you know what, this is all part of it. This is what to expect. But at least educating them on that. Like, this is out there. Be ready for it. And you think you might be prepared. But when your mother and mother-in-law finally leave and you're alone in the house and you can't sleep and you totally look at your body and you're not getting any training done, you know, like,

• 1:46:00Chris Hauth?

  that's when things start going south.

• 1:46:03Caroline Burckle?

  And it's hard to prepare. I mean, you can prepare people for these things. But everyone's experience is going to be different through that transition, no matter what.

• 1:46:11Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. That's why you just said.

• 1:46:15Chris Hauth?

  With experience and her going into those classrooms, I think the important thing there is too is allowing, like you said, allowing ourselves to fail. And a lot of good coaching, in my opinion, is exactly that. Allow, setting the conditions and the environment for you to fail and having a guide, a mentor, a coach to say, you know what, that was expected. You should be here. And that is awesome. Now, what are we gonna do with it? How are you, as an athlete, learning to go forward from this, using what you just experienced with me helping you along the way, guiding you forward, failing forward, so that then you're gonna be a better, smarter, stronger, better athlete post this.

• 1:46:58Chris Hauth?

  But you have to go through those failures.

• 1:47:01Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:47:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It has to be a tactile experience for that individual. You're performing, as a coach, some form of inception. Because you could just say, here's what you need to do. Why aren't you doing this? But the letting go and the allowing allows that person to then, you know, see where those edges are, or whatever, or fail. And then they can like take ownership of it in a different way. Like, they get it in a way they wouldn't if they were just trying to follow your lead all the time.

• 1:47:31Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, there's a theory out there that, you know, I think it was a quote by Bismarck who said, you know, I don't wanna learn through experience. I wanna learn through other people's experience so I can avoid those mistakes. No, in my opinion, no. Because I am incorporating, I'm learning, I'm working in and working out when I'm going through those failures. I'm able to analyze it, feel it mentally, physically, spiritually, completely different.

• 1:47:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:56Chris Hauth?

  Going through that.

• 1:47:57Rich Roll?

  Bismarck didn't have teenage daughters.

• 1:47:59Chris Hauth?

  Exactly.

• 1:48:01Caroline Burckle?

  That's a good one.

• 1:48:02Chris Hauth?

  Very true. Three of them.

• 1:48:06Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, look, I'm a woman. I can speak for that side of it, cuz it is very true.

• 1:48:13Caroline Burckle?

  I, I think there's, um, like when you're saying, you know, he wants people to avoid, like, avoid these mistakes before they go into it. I get so frustrated when I hear people wanting advice or telling me how to do this, or please tell me how to do this right now, or, and it's something I'm working on not getting frustrated with, but it is something that is difficult because I just so badly wanna just say, you, you have to learn this through your own experience and take and integrate things that other people have said and, and showed you so that you can then integrate it into your own body and your own experience.

• 1:48:56Caroline Burckle?

  It's like, you don't wanna be the next Serena Williams, you wanna be, you know, Coco. Like, you wanna be your own athlete.

• 1:49:03Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:03Caroline Burckle?

  And I think that that is something I'm so passionate about, and I get all the feels about that, because it is, it's a powerful thing as we evolve in society. And there's a lot of information out there, and there's a lot of people telling you how to do different things, and coaches telling you, you know, this is, this is the way to do it. And it's like, the ones that can walk alongside you and allow you to fail forward, and allow you to make your own mistakes, and, um...

• 1:49:27Chris Hauth?

  It frustrates people, though.

• 1:49:28Caroline Burckle?

  It's very frustrating, for sure. It's hard to be in that position.

• 1:49:31Chris Hauth?

  Well, but it's also frustrating for the athlete. I'm, I'm, I'm used to watching it now, because it just, you know, it's very predictable. But, A, there's an industry out there of coaches who will shortcut it with you.

• 1:49:44Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:44Chris Hauth?

  That's my job. You know, you hack the system by working with me. I'll, I'll get you around those shortcuts. Well, A, in the endurance world, we know that especially doesn't work. But B, it's also, the athlete, the person, the, the coachee, thinks that because they hired you, they get to jump ahead in the line, ahead in the path of life. And it's like, no, good coaching is mentorship, right? Being a few steps ahead, maybe, and saying, eh, you know what? When you grab that branch, be careful, right? You're still gonna grab the branch as you're climbing the tree, but just heads up, right?

• 1:50:25Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, like you're gonna do it, but I'm also...

• 1:50:27Chris Hauth?

  Or what I like to always do is like, imagine a good coach is the guy who stands, or the girl who stands behind you, and just takes your shoulders and goes, meh. Adjust this way, just a little bit. You're still going your path, but just a little nudge here and there so that you again are heading with those buffers, bumpers, setting the conditions to get to where you want to go.

• 1:50:47Caroline Burckle?

  What kind of athlete were you? Did you want the answers or did you like?

• 1:50:50Chris Hauth?

  No, I was such a scared little kid.

• 1:50:55Chris Hauth?

  And that's the funny thing is I had, I had just talked about this, I think on my podcast, about how I never won anything. I always had bigger, stronger athletes around me that were just awesome. They were just, you know, six foot two big, I mean, in like middle school, like these icons. And I was always just a little kid, just, I was never, I always felt never good enough, part of the tears back then too. Like it just was never good enough. I was just always below the surface of feeling good enough. And so I stood there with the puppy eyes, did everything like, and oh, you want me to sleep more? Okay. And then I tried everything, you know? So I was very compliant, but I also loved the structure and the discipline.

• 1:51:39Chris Hauth?

  So, yeah, I don't, I think I was coachable, but I think that the coaches were bored with me because they're like, he's, he's, he's just too like, oh my gosh, go away.

• 1:51:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It isn't, you know, compliance will take you pretty far. Like there's the person who can read all the books and they get it and they actually apply it in their life. And like, you know, they, they can become amazing in all different kinds of things. And it's the person who is the creative thinker, who's pushing the boundaries and like refuses to comply, that's the problem athlete or the problem student. And, you know, when you're a kid and you see that guy, you're like, don't be like that person.

• 1:52:18Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:52:19Rich Roll?

  In my experience, quite often those become the most amazing people because they're trying new things and they're refusing to just take things at face value. And, you know, that can go off the rails, of course, but in the right circumstances, they become the most interesting people, the most successful people, the most creative people in so many ways. So a lot of it is disposition, you know, some people are just wired in different ways. But I think about that a lot. Like I've talked about that with John Moffett. Like he was like that as a swimmer. And I was like, how come he's not doing what the coach said? Or, or the kid in, you know, middle school who was cracking jokes and then becomes like, you know, Jonah Hill and gets Academy Award nominations is like, you know,

• 1:53:03Rich Roll?

  he got thrown out, tossed out of Boulder like his first year of college.

• 1:53:06Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:53:07Rich Roll?

  But, you know, when those people find their right lane, they become amazing.

• 1:53:12Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:13Chris Hauth?

  Or as I like to say, the lane that they were destined to be in anyway.

• 1:53:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:53:17Chris Hauth?

  And as children, that comes out anyway. There's no, there's not enough narrative and, you know, dirt in the, in the way for their, their more natural self to come out. And that's where the kids we remember, they're like, wow, that kid was different or creative or always loud or always rambunctious or couldn't sit still. And, but that was the true them before society sort of.

• 1:53:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:53:40Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:53:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:40Chris Hauth?

  You must be like this.

• 1:53:43Rich Roll?

  Right. Which is why it's like, okay, you might, if you're going to grab that branch, you might want to think about that. Like when you were telling that story, you know, it reminds me of, of like sponsorship in AA, like doing this for many years. And it's like, you know, you get crazy calls and people are like, well, maybe you need to go out and drink some more, you know, like, let me know how that goes.

• 1:54:04Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:04Rich Roll?

  Call me next week. You know, it's like, I'm not telling you not to do, you know, like, well, it sounds like you really want to drink.

• 1:54:10Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 1:54:10Rich Roll?

  So maybe you should.

• 1:54:11Caroline Burckle?

  Allowing them to think about.

• 1:54:12Rich Roll?

  Like they have to like make that decision for themselves, you know?

• 1:54:15Chris Hauth?

  For sure.

• 1:54:16Caroline Burckle?

  I appreciate coaches like that though, that I really do, that allow you to, like you were saying, fail forward, make the decisions for yourself. And I think I was more of the John Moffett type myself, so I can only speak to that. But my brother's the exact opposite. He's very much play by the rules, you know? So I grew up very close in age to somebody that was exact opposite of me. And so it is interesting to have that experience as I reflect back now on coaching and what that looks like growing up and how that can evolve and change and how the athlete can also evolve and change if they are someone that is a rule follower in this and this, they can use that to their advantage if they choose to, to become great. That can actually play into their advantage in a way that, you know, I wouldn't understand,

• 1:55:01Caroline Burckle?

  I wouldn't be able to begin to understand, but there's a lot of that going on.

• 1:55:06Caroline Burckle?

  But yeah, you have the athletes like John where it's like.

• 1:55:10Chris Hauth?

  When that comes out in you, though, like what you're talking about, like either end of the spectrum, the role follower or the more creative, again, once you're connected to what is your source and what is your path, you can just blossom. But if you just continue to ignore that, you're never going to find out. You're just going to be bouncing from spot to spot. And that's the classic like, well, what is my, what am I destined to do? Or what is my, you know, path, even in that question? Well, you gotta sort of get dirty and keep doing a variety of things to find that where that sweet spot is. And that's those first years from college until, you know, like your mid 30s, where you just gotta sort of, it's messy. It's meant to be messy.

• 1:55:55Rich Roll?

  And I think we should disabuse people of this idea that you're supposed to just have it figured out.

• 1:56:00Caroline Burckle?

  Right, right. You're never going to. And you're allowed to change as many times as I want.

• 1:56:05Chris Hauth?

  And I hope you don't, right? We hope that we don't always have it figured out. Then there's no passion and purpose and failing forward and curiosity and excitement and what potential, potential says, I don't have it figured out. I want to keep going along that path.

• 1:56:22Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:24Rich Roll?

  That's like David Epstein's book Range. You know, he has all these case studies of all these amazing people. And have you read that book?

• 1:56:33Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 1:56:33Rich Roll?

  So, you know, it kind of upends the 10,000 hour rule idea and looks at all these people who have excelled in a variety of walks of life, from, you know, math and science to, you know, academics and sports and art and creativity. And the overwhelming majority of people were people who were dabblers for a very long period of time. Like the Tiger Woods are few and far between, but I can't remember, is it Federer? Like one of the great tennis players was like a soccer player.

• 1:57:07Chris Hauth?

  Federer, yeah.

• 1:57:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he did all these other things before he, you know, ended up specializing in like.

• 1:57:12Chris Hauth?

  As was Rafa.

• 1:57:13Rich Roll?

  Van Gogh. And like all these people had like a million different jobs before they finally figured their thing out. And then all of those experiences. You know, in retrospect, all line up

• 1:57:23Caroline Burckle?

  Yes.

• 1:57:23Rich Roll?

  to, you know, inform the greatness that later blossoms.

• 1:57:27Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:27Caroline Burckle?

  All paths usually lead to one eventually.

• 1:57:29Chris Hauth?

  Exactly. There's that as well as the first part of your life and the second part of your life. And you can be a phenomenal, exceptional mastery type of athlete or creative or musician or artist in the first part of your life. And you might then, most cases, I'm not saying 100%, you hit a wall. And then who are you going to be the second half of your life? And that is the biggest challenge then, right? Because then, like, I know Tiger's an easy example, right? Like, the dominance, the athletic ability, the skill, the intelligence around it. But now, still just golf. Right? And of course, family and so forth. And I don't want to, I don't know them and I don't want to judge that.

• 1:58:12Chris Hauth?

  I'm just saying, the path runs out. And at some point, you hit what's called that second mountain, where you have to be the author of your own life, right? And where you tap into the things you've learned in order to then express your path, express the truth of who you are. And that's what, to me, is most fascinating as we get older. And those first few years out of college and stuff where you're doing all those things, it's all tools for that second mountain, when you want to be the author of your own. We all have to follow some sort of rules with regards to making some money.

• 1:58:51Chris Hauth?

  You know, a career path and so forth. But then, once we kick out of that, it's not just another car. It's now, what can I do with this one great life? You know, Mary Oliver's quote. I mean, it's just, it gives you so much freedom, the fact that you dabbled, as well as that you were open to finding yourself and your path.

• 1:59:13Caroline Burckle?

  And on this road, everyone just wants to be seen for whatever they're doing, in whatever timeline they're doing it on. And that's something, across the board, is sort of the underlying theme with all pursuits at any point in life, you know? And it feels...

• 1:59:32Caroline Burckle?

  I suppose it feels terrifying to want to be seen for things in your life, you know, when you transition from sport or when you're in sport or when you're an athlete to a coach. It's like, we all just want to feel seen for whatever it is that we're going through in that moment, regardless of if it's succeeding or failing. And I mean, I know I'm going off on a little tangent here, but that is, that to me allows us to feel safe enough to continue doing 10 different things like Van Gogh and trying to figure out your way. Otherwise, you're just trying to nail something down in order, again, to be validated so that people think you're great. Or I gotta go get this big job and everyone loves what I'm doing.

• 2:00:15Caroline Burckle?

  But if somebody can see you for your paths and what you're doing, it's such a different experience to feel accepted instead of validated.

• 2:00:26Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:27Caroline Burckle?

  If you follow my

• 2:00:29Rich Roll?

  But you have to do that for yourself first.

• 2:00:31Caroline Burckle?

  Totally. And it's hard to see yourself. It's hard for people to look at themselves, going back to the going in concept. It's hard to feel like you want to be seen for something. Even the ones, even the people in our lives that we would never think that about, that they have no problem being seen. Here I am, blah, blah, you know. There's still something in there to where they want to feel understood, seen, accepted, loved, all of these themes throughout the process. And it, again, it's the underlying thing, the worthiness, the feeling seen, so that you can feel like you can conquer and go through any stage

• 2:01:15Caroline Burckle?

  or any version of yourself in your life that you're going to take on.

• 2:01:18Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, back to that positive present, that their past narrative has shown that it works, validation.

• 2:01:24Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 2:01:24Chris Hauth?

  I feel accepted at that. I've done it before. I can therefore immerse myself in the now because I'm confident, past validation and narrative, that it will work out in the future. So I can be creative. I can be in the moment. I can be on that challenge skill, sweet spot and not worry, right? Because I have, I have been accepted. So it's, but that's also brings us back to the pandemic, right? With this whole year with a lot of people. Not being comfortable with being by themselves. Because you're back to, oh shit.

• 2:01:58Caroline Burckle?

  Right, now I have to see myself and accept myself.

• 2:02:01Chris Hauth?

  So there's the flip side of being seen too, just being seen by yourself. And this past year, there are countless people in my direct world and extended world where I would, I just sit there and I'm like, gosh, you should just spend some time with yourself. It's okay, right? But despite that, the pandemic could have provided an amazing opportunity for some of those people. And that's something I feel is often overlooked, spending time with yourself and your thoughts and looking yourself in the mirror and being comfortable with that. It being comfortable, it's uncomfortable.

• 2:02:40Rich Roll?

  It's terrifying for a lot of people. It's like the worst nightmare for many.

• 2:02:44Caroline Burckle?

  It's very terrifying because it means.

• 2:02:46Rich Roll?

  You set up your whole life to avoid having to do that.

• 2:02:49Caroline Burckle?

  Right.

• 2:02:49Rich Roll?

  And then pandemic.

• 2:02:51Caroline Burckle?

  There are so many ways to hide behind it too. There are so many, again, going back to the sports or just hiding behind anything that you possibly can so that people don't really have to see you and your struggles and your vulnerabilities.

• 2:03:04Rich Roll?

  You don't have to confront that.

• 2:03:05Caroline Burckle?

  You don't have to confront that, yeah. You don't have to see it because if you see it, then well, there goes the spiral of I'm a failure. I'm not enough. I'm this.

• 2:03:14Rich Roll?

  You see it, then that fear that you're repressing might actually be real.

• 2:03:19Caroline Burckle?

  Yep.

• 2:03:19Chris Hauth?

  As well as if I see it, others must be seeing it. So then you get that sensation in there too, like, yeah, I know it's, but again, it's every now and then stopping, turning around and facing the shadow versus just constantly looking at the sun and striving for that. And like you said earlier, pausing and taking some time and checking in like, is everything okay?

• 2:03:48Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. The power of the pause.

• 2:03:53Rich Roll?

  I think that that, uh, that this is as good as time as any to hit pause on this then. Been going for a couple of hours.

• 2:04:01Chris Hauth?

  We can do that.

• 2:04:02Rich Roll?

  We could. We could go for five more hours. We can, uh, we can, we can, to be continued. Chris, I think Coach's Corner has just been extended to Caroline.

• 2:04:12Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:12Caroline Burckle?

  Did I make the call?

• 2:04:13Chris Hauth?

  No.

• 2:04:14Caroline Burckle?

  I did it?

• 2:04:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:15Chris Hauth?

  It's been nice.

• 2:04:15Caroline Burckle?

  I'm joining the team.

• 2:04:16Rich Roll?

  It's been great. Yeah.

• 2:04:17Caroline Burckle?

  Great. I feel very fortunate to be here with you.

• 2:04:20Chris Hauth?

  Quite honestly, we needed a female.

• 2:04:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we did. We definitely did.

• 2:04:23Caroline Burckle?

  You know, I provide the yin to the...

• 2:04:28Rich Roll?

  A little bit too much. No, it's awesome. This is great.

• 2:04:30Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, this is great.

• 2:04:31Rich Roll?

  Um, so Chris, you are planning on swimming across Lake Tahoe in August?

• 2:04:37Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Rich Roll?

  Twenty-one miles.

• 2:04:39Chris Hauth?

  First two weeks in August is the window.

• 2:04:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:04:42Chris Hauth?

  Because the water is the warmest then.

• 2:04:44Rich Roll?

  Right, so.

• 2:04:45Caroline Burckle?

  Still sixty-five?

• 2:04:46Rich Roll?

  Sixty-six, something like that.

• 2:04:48Chris Hauth?

  Historically, it could get up to sixty-eight.

• 2:04:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:04:52Chris Hauth?

  I'm praying.

• 2:04:53Rich Roll?

  No wetsuits, so you are gonna have to, you should put on a little bit of weight.

• 2:04:56Chris Hauth?

  I'm thinking about twelve to fifteen pounds.

• 2:04:58Rich Roll?

  There's no indication that you've done that so far?

• 2:05:02Chris Hauth?

  This is me in my swimming years too. It's like, oh, he's like, what's the little kid doing here?

• 2:05:08Caroline Burckle?

  Wait, so are we, are you gonna coerce myself to come out there?

• 2:05:12Chris Hauth?

  I'm definitely coercing you. Because you needed to get ready for Catalina.

• 2:05:17Rich Roll?

  I've done less swimming this year than I have in my whole life.

• 2:05:20Caroline Burckle?

  I know.

• 2:05:20Rich Roll?

  I think.

• 2:05:21Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. I mean, look, we could give it a go.

• 2:05:23Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:24Caroline Burckle?

  Do you have to, you don't have to swim many times. You could just jump in once, right?

• 2:05:28Chris Hauth?

  What do you mean? Like, what?

• 2:05:31Caroline Burckle?

  Well, we still need to talk about the structure of this race.

• 2:05:33Chris Hauth?

  So it's, um, not looking, it's not a race.

• 2:05:36Rich Roll?

  It's not a race.

• 2:05:36Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, right.

• 2:05:37Chris Hauth?

  Not looking for the record, um, which is, uh, eight forty-five or something like that.

• 2:05:44Rich Roll?

  Who has a record?

• 2:05:45Chris Hauth?

  It's a woman, um, which is awesome.

• 2:05:47Caroline Burckle?

  Let's go. Yeah.

• 2:05:48Chris Hauth?

  And a pretty fast guy tried it last year and he only went, only nine thirty. So that's a significant difference of what she said. Her name escapes me right now, but...

• 2:06:01Chris Hauth?

  Not looking to set the record. So those who set, look to set the record start at midnight and swim through the night because of the winds on the lake. But I have no interest in swimming through the night. Like I like daylight and sunshine.

• 2:06:13Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:13Chris Hauth?

  Again, warmer. So I was thinking of starting around 4 a.m. and swimming into sunrise. And then, you know, when it, when the body is truly miserable, like six, seven hours in, that the sun is at its highest point.

• 2:06:27Caroline Burckle?

  Right. And then you're done.

• 2:06:28Chris Hauth?

  And then eventually I'm done. I can still have dinner, a normal meal that night.

• 2:06:33Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:33Chris Hauth?

  Go to bed versus being shelled for two days for a lack of sleep a night. So it'd be middle of the week on a Wednesday because the lake's emptiest. We have kayakers, we have boats and a bunch of swimmers. People jumping in for certain legs. So your brother should jump in and all that.

• 2:06:54Caroline Burckle?

  Well, he can't come.

• 2:06:55Chris Hauth?

  Oh, yeah, that's right. He has a wedding.

• 2:06:56Caroline Burckle?

  He has a wedding or something like that. But I mean, he'll be there for Catalina after. I'm, I'm down.

• 2:07:01Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:01Caroline Burckle?

  I just need, you know, spell out the deets, tell me how much I'm doing here.

• 2:07:04Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, it's 21 miles.

• 2:07:07Caroline Burckle?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:07:08Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, you should come up and pop in. I mean, it's so epic to swim in the middle of that lake. And it's beautiful.

• 2:07:14Rich Roll?

  I've done the relay, the Transaho relay thing, but that goes across the short end. You don't go end to end.

• 2:07:20Chris Hauth?

  And we start south at Camp Richardson and head north to Incline. So it's sort of a diagonal length of the lake. Yeah, there's not really that much about it. We got to stick to open water swimming rules. So no wetsuit, no touching the boat and being fed.

• 2:07:36Caroline Burckle?

  No being fed.

• 2:07:37Chris Hauth?

  Uh, being fed versus touch the boat and grab any type of food. So it's a question of, yeah, water polo, but it's like, you know, there's sort of like lacrosse stick type of extenders.

• 2:07:50Caroline Burckle?

  Pass me the goo.

• 2:07:51Chris Hauth?

  Well, that you'll find depending on your crew, how well they throw it at you.

• 2:07:55Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, I'm like swimming to get it.

• 2:07:57Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:07:58Caroline Burckle?

  He's like a bobbing apple.

• 2:07:59Chris Hauth?

  You actually swam 23 miles because you kept having to get trash that people were throwing at you. Yeah, and you know. It's thirty seven thousand five hundred yards about. That gives you an idea.

• 2:08:14Caroline Burckle?

  Look, I'm down. It just, I need some, yeah, some prep.

• 2:08:18Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, and so in the prep, it's going to be a fair amount of lake swimming. Starting in June, late May, wet suit, just to get used to long lake swims. I spend my time at Donner, three miles length, so I'll do back and forths. So I'll build from six to probably all the way to, I won't go more than sixteen in training.

• 2:08:41Caroline Burckle?

  So it looks like we need a Donner repeat.

• 2:08:45Chris Hauth?

  But we'll choose Tahoe.

• 2:08:46Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:08:47Chris Hauth?

  And go longer there.

• 2:08:48Rich Roll?

  That could be fun.

• 2:08:49Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:51Caroline Burckle?

  I feel like it would be nice to have something to look forward to other than Catalina.

• 2:08:54Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 2:08:55Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah. It's just night, you know, I just, it's, it's always annoying in the moment when you're like, I don't know. And then, and then you put it on there and you go and you're like, that was epic.

• 2:09:05Rich Roll?

  Right, I know.

• 2:09:06Caroline Burckle?

  So it's like, why not?

• 2:09:07Chris Hauth?

  I've never done anything that long.

• 2:09:09Caroline Burckle?

  The kids say.

• 2:09:11Rich Roll?

  You've done ten Ks, though.

• 2:09:12Chris Hauth?

  I've done ten Ks, but I mean, this is a lot longer than six miles.

• 2:09:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:17Chris Hauth?

  So, four times as long.

• 2:09:19Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 2:09:21Rich Roll?

  And Caroline, you've got.

• 2:09:24Caroline Burckle?

  November.

• 2:09:27Rich Roll?

  Maybe.

• 2:09:28Caroline Burckle?

  Probably do this, yeah.

• 2:09:30Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:31Caroline Burckle?

  I don't think there's.

• 2:09:31Chris Hauth?

  I think we'll be like three or four swimmers, all doing the full length.

• 2:09:36Caroline Burckle?

  I think it would be really cool.

• 2:09:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:38Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, we could get another boat, too, and get, yeah.

• 2:09:41Chris Hauth?

  Well, we'll need another, for four swimmers, we will want a second motorboat, just to supplies and people back and forth, and then a kayaker, so.

• 2:09:49Rich Roll?

  And you've got Jamie Patrick involved.

• 2:09:51Chris Hauth?

  Yes.

• 2:09:51Rich Roll?

  Didn't he do, didn't he try to go the outline of the?

• 2:09:54Chris Hauth?

  He's done, he runs the Lake Tahoe Swim Association, and he was the first person to do the double.

• 2:10:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 2:10:01Chris Hauth?

  For him.

• 2:10:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:10:02Chris Hauth?

  He swam down and back, so, and then he tried the outline, and he's done single crossings like four or five times.

• 2:10:11Rich Roll?

  How many miles is the perimeter? It's gotta be.

• 2:10:13Chris Hauth?

  Well, it's, on the bike, it's seventy-three miles, so if you figure a little bit smaller.

• 2:10:18Rich Roll?

  Sixty-eight or something.

• 2:10:19Chris Hauth?

  Sixty-eight, yeah. That's a whole different endeavor. And there's things that go through your head, obviously, when you're training this stuff. But then I always keep saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's first do 21, Chris.

• 2:10:30Caroline Burckle?

  I think we should do the Backbone Trail. Maybe next year.

• 2:10:34Chris Hauth?

  Yeah, well, they're.

• 2:10:35Rich Roll?

  You're about to do that tomorrow with Billy Yang's crew.

• 2:10:38Chris Hauth?

  But I'm not doing the whole thing.

• 2:10:40Caroline Burckle?

  You're doing half.

• 2:10:41Chris Hauth?

  I had a hamstring issue.

• 2:10:43Rich Roll?

  People are, who's joining Billy for that?

• 2:10:46Chris Hauth?

  He has about 10 of his Patreon podcast listeners.

• 2:10:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:52Chris Hauth?

  Who are good ultra runners, yeah.

• 2:10:54Rich Roll?

  I knew that he, there was right at the beginning of the pandemic, I think Courtney DeWalter was gonna, was gonna go for like the record or something like that. And that didn't happen.

• 2:11:02Chris Hauth?

  Well, because she did the, no, it's just, just basically listeners of his podcast and a couple of friends of his. But she then went on to run the whole length of Colorado or something like that, that 400 mile run. She's like, forget that backbone stuff. And then, and then I have about nine athletes doing it too. And it was, we, this came up in December where we're like, you know, this is when the California shut down the second, the strict one happened. I was like, we need something through the winter to train for, to have, to look forward to. And that coincides with the rest of people's seasons. And so in a major hub like, you know, LA, having the Backbone Trail, which is beautiful and epic. 67 miles with 13,000 feet of elevation gain.

• 2:11:47Chris Hauth?

  People can fly in, it's easy. And yeah, they're off tomorrow morning at 5:00 AM.

• 2:11:52Rich Roll?

  All right, I'll have to figure out what time it's gonna be passing through.

• 2:11:56Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:56Rich Roll?

  The Backbone literally runs through my backyard.

• 2:11:59Caroline Burckle?

  There you go. Rich is out there with a sign.

• 2:12:01Rich Roll?

  But that's like, around like the 30 mile.

• 2:12:03Chris Hauth?

  A recliner just going, you guys are crazy.

• 2:12:07Rich Roll?

  You're looking good. You want some water?

• 2:12:10Caroline Burckle?

  Throwing goos at them.

• 2:12:11Chris Hauth?

  The hose is over there.

• 2:12:14Caroline Burckle?

  I mean, I'm all about also creating our own adventures. So I think we could muster something up next year or so.

• 2:12:21Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:12:21Chris Hauth?

  How's your running going? Are you able to run?

• 2:12:24Caroline Burckle?

  I run a little. I don't run a lot anymore. Honestly, yeah, I don't run. I don't run like you. I'll go out and I'll run like three, four miles. Yeah, like I don't care. I think I'm also in a space where I don't need to run to feel like validated with myself, which took me a really long time. But now I just, I love like just going out and running for like two miles, jogging, walk, run, and I'll do like five to six miles, just walk, run, kind of jog, run thing where I have the intervals and the different thing. I like that way better than straight running. Can't do the concrete pounding the concrete for 10 miles. Forget that.

• 2:13:04Chris Hauth?

  I don't do that either.

• 2:13:06Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, let's do this again.

• 2:13:08Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:09Rich Roll?

  Maybe in Donner.

• 2:13:10Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:10Rich Roll?

  Since that's where it started. We'll see.

• 2:13:13Caroline Burckle?

  Full circle.

• 2:13:14Chris Hauth?

  Full circle.

• 2:13:15Rich Roll?

  In the meantime, where should I direct people to go? AMP Coach.

• 2:13:21Chris Hauth?

  AMP Coaching, yeah.

• 2:13:22Rich Roll?

  Dot com for Chris.

• 2:13:23Chris Hauth?

  Yeah. And then the Weekly Word Podcast.

• 2:13:26Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 2:13:26Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:27Rich Roll?

  Caroline?

• 2:13:28Caroline Burckle?

  I have website, carolynburkle.com and Instagram, at caro burkle. I don't tweet and I don't do Facebook.

• 2:13:37Rich Roll?

  You're a beast on Instagram, though.

• 2:13:39Caroline Burckle?

  I'm, I'm, I'm trying. I'm a little dull at the moment. It feels like the same thing every day kind of thing, you know?

• 2:13:44Chris Hauth?

  I like your artwork. I think your artwork is cool.

• 2:13:47Caroline Burckle?

  Thanks. Yeah, it's great.

• 2:13:49Chris Hauth?

  You have like a, like a clothing line and all that.

• 2:13:51Caroline Burckle?

  I'm really loving it. Yeah, I actually started a swimwear line before COVID and then I had to stop because I was manufacturing in LA and they were only taking current customers instead of new.

• 2:13:59Chris Hauth?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:00Caroline Burckle?

  But I could start again now and they're open.

• 2:14:02Chris Hauth?

  That's awesome. I mean, the artwork has been pretty remarkable.

• 2:14:05Caroline Burckle?

  Thanks. Yeah, it's a good balance to rise. It's like the, the yin to it all. It's really nice.

• 2:14:10Chris Hauth?

  That I can imagine.

• 2:14:11Rich Roll?

  Well, we'll talk, we'll talk more about that next time.

• 2:14:14Caroline Burckle?

  Yeah, well, new conversation.

• 2:14:17Rich Roll?

  Good to see you guys. Love you both. Thank you.

• 2:14:20Chris Hauth?

  Thank you.

• 2:14:20Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:14:24Rich Roll?

  Thanks for listening, everybody. For links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis,

• 2:15:07Rich Roll?

  portraits by Ally Rogers and Davy Greenberg, graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda, copywriting by Georgia Whaley, and our theme music was created by Tyler Piot, Trapper Piot, and Harry Mathis. You can find me at richroll.com or on Instagram and Twitter, @richroll. I appreciate the love. I love the support. I don't take your attention for granted. Thank you for listening. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.