ROLLUP: ETH Price Target | ETF Launch Date | Celebcoin Drama | Major New L2s

✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/8?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E ------ Bankless Friday Weekly Rollup Last Week of May ------ 📣 TRANSPORTER - SECURED BY CHAINLINK CCIP | TRY IT OUT https://www.transporter.io/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🔗CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/toku ⚖️ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum https://%E2%81%A0https//bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🌐 CARTESI | LINUX-POWERED ROLLUPS https://bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance ------ TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES 00:00:00 Injury Updates 00:05:16 Markets https://pro.kraken.com/app/trade/btc-usd https://pro.kraken.com/app/trade/eth-usd 00:07:22 ETF Update https://x.com/tier10k/status/1793758369804886200?s=46&t=LKBC7Qtm18FnZ380xCF2pA https://x.com/tier10k/status/1793758369804886200?s=46&t=LKBC7Qtm18FnZ380xCF2pA 00:09:08 When Will ETFs Launch? https://x.com/EricBalchunas/status/1795934675380109479 https://x.com/NateGeraci/status/1795255561753424157 https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1795933440090452413 00:11:09 ETH Price Impact https://imgur.com/a/rkIfckX https://www.theblock.co/post/296237/qcp-capital-predicts-spot-ethereum-etf-approvals-could-drive-prices-higher https://www.grayscale.com/research/reports/the-state-of-ethereum https://thedefireport.io/research/the-turning-point#a-simple-framework-to-think-about-p https://x.com/ZachLight16/status/1794778924381082003 00:19:31 The ETH Narrative https://x.com/TrustlessState/status/1795595286972383494 https://youtu.be/vo2PjvZHIR4?si=ICEq25ulL4iaguOg&t=140 https://youtu.be/vo2PjvZHIR4?si=ICEq25ulL4iaguOg&t=140 https://youtu.be/rlZo7x2ABHw?si=K6WKpHGP-4_L1k5w&t=50 https://youtu.be/rlZo7x2ABHw?si=K6WKpHGP-4_L1k5w&t=50 https://x.com/jdorman81/status/1792927796353814640 00:30:26 David's Challenge 00:34:47 The Saylor Pivot https://x.com/JasonYanowitz/status/1793627497398948193 https://x.com/BeagleBitcoin/status/1794443617399885986 https://x.com/nic__carter/status/1792706827748294947 https://x.com/sassal0x/status/1794603287431528522 00:41:05 Presidential Pivot https://x.com/yugacohler/status/1794540212254589369 https://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/1794535395176366260?t=zcNFn9egY0fRCpxYNRu7sQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/1794535395176366260?t=zcNFn9egY0fRCpxYNRu7sQ&s=19 https://www.theblock.co/post/297504/biden-campaign-shifts-crypto-stance-engages-crypto-industry-presidential-elections-2024?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social https://www.theblock.co/post/297504/biden-campaign-shifts-crypto-stance-engages-crypto-industry-presidential-elections-2024?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social 00:47:21 Celeb Coins https://x.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1794886435985846680 https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/caitlyn-jenner https://x.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1795269306693075404 https://x.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1795277298490605934 https://x.com/Caitlyn_Jenner/status/1795973191325585733 https://x.com/coffeebreak_YT/status/1795948137397338120 https://x.com/waleswoosh/status/1795046157674045567 00:57:09 L2 Update https://l2beat.com/scaling/summary https://x.com/jessepollak/status/1795572376555712551 https://x.com/0xDesigner/status/1794040845642957102 00:59:57 ENS L2 https://x.com/ensdomains/status/1795440186513576318 01:01:33 Taiko Mainnet https://x.com/taikoxyz/status/1795078728768483464 01:03:14 Solana Updates https://forum.solana.com/t/proposal-for-enabling-the-reward-full-priority-fee-to-validator-on-solana-mainnet-beta/1456/97 01:05:52 ETH vs SOL Debate 01:06:32 Gary Takes Another L https://x.com/iampaulgrewal/status/1795511035870285827 01:08:20 Gemini Earn Updates https://x.com/Gemini/status/1795819898049884468 https://x.com/JSeyff/status/1795928574878245126 01:10:18 Railgun Volume Record https://thedefiant.io/news/regulation/railgun-privacy-protocol-surpasses-usd1b-in-volume-amid-crackdown-on-crypto-mixers 01:13:29 Warpcast Bankless Frame https://warpcast.com/bankless/0xca3e17df?utm_source=Socials&utm_medium=Farcaster&utm_campaign=warpcastclaimables https://warpcast.com/bankless/0xca3e17df?utm_source=Socials&utm_medium=Farcaster&utm_campaign=warpcastclaimables 01:14:47 Meme of The Week https://x.com/eawosikaa/status/1795659750702719348 ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bagel Station, it is the last week of May and what a May it has been, David. We are one week off the Ethereum ETF, so I know we're going to talk about that. And we've got a lot more in store, but you know what? You were scheduled to be leaving today, I believe?

• 0:20David Hoffman?

  Uh, no, I would have been, I would have been at Consensus. Consensus is happening in Austin right now. I would have been there on like Monday or Tuesday.

• 0:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, tell us about the rib.

• 0:27David Hoffman?

  But, but I'm not.

• 0:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  What happened?

• 0:30David Hoffman?

  Astute listeners would notice that I'm not at Consensus. I'm at, at my apartment in New York. So, okay, the fight with Nick Carter was going to be on today. It's Thursday night, May 30th. Instead, I broke a rib, so I will not be fighting.

• 0:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yikes.

• 0:45David Hoffman?

  Different, different things happened.

• 0:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which rib? Here's the x-ray.

• 0:49David Hoffman?

  Rib number eight, yeah.

• 0:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Did you feel the need to post this x-ray just so that haters couldn't say you were trying to dodge the fight with Nick Carter?

• 0:58David Hoffman?

  100%. 100%. That's why, there was no way I was just going to be able to get away with a tweet saying, oh, I broke a rib. Like, I needed to post an x-ray.

• 1:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  I know, I know. So this was your, your ninth rib, fully fractured?

• 1:12David Hoffman?

  Excuse me.

• 1:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, how are you, how are you feeling?

• 1:15David Hoffman?

  So, okay, it, it broke Monday of last week, so coming up on like 10 or 8, 10 or 11 days ago. And then the next five days, I broke it on Monday, the next five days it just got worse and worse and worse. I got x-rays on Thursday. It's like, okay, this is, this pain is now very real and not going away.

• 1:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:31David Hoffman?

  And then x-rays come back and it's fully broken. And then on Saturday was like peak pain where it's like getting out of bed was just like a two-minute-long process.

• 1:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh.

• 1:40David Hoffman?

  Like, sneezing sends like shivers down my spine. We're, we're on the mend though, so it was like, that was that's last Saturday. So I've got like four days of like feeling better since then.

• 1:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  With a, with a rib fracture, rib break, you just have to ride it out, right?

• 1:54David Hoffman?

  There's nothing you can do. There's like, you can't get cast. Like, your, your ribs still have to flex because that's how you breathe. And so like, you basically just can't do anything extra. So like, walking is fine, but bending over not fine. Like, doing anything, like, even laying down, laughing, no. There was, there was a time I was like scrolling through like Instagram reels, just like mindlessly. It's just like chuckling at some of the stuff and I just had to stop because it was like, funny stuff was like too painful.

• 2:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Dude, I'm sorry. I know this is disappointing because I had I had seen the amount of work that you put in for the last two months. And that amount of work, by the way, is why I bet on you, David. If people don't know, earlier that week, I took out a bet with Kyle Samani from MultiCoin that David was gonna win. So I know you put a lot of time into this because because I saw it and I saw you show up to podcast recordings like battered battered and bruised. So I'm sorry this happened and same for Nick too. I'm sure he was disappointed.

• 2:52David Hoffman?

  Nick put in a ton of work. Yeah, he was going through a whole camp. Yeah.

• 2:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so will we never know?

• 2:57David Hoffman?

  I don't know. I we are working on things. We are figuring out where like the first ever Nick Carter versus David Hoffmann fight will be.

• 3:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  So so it's not canceled. It's just postponed, merely postponed.

• 3:10David Hoffman?

  For to an unknown unknown date. But yeah, we both intend to to do this thing.

• 3:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, very exciting. Well, let us know on the details around that. David, that's the fight. We got to talk about the the Fight Ethereum one last week. We are one week out from the Ethereum ETF approval. We're talking about when we can buy an ETH ETF. Some more paperwork has to get filed. Will that take weeks? Will that take months? Also, I have a question for you, man. Why isn't the price moving?

• 3:35David Hoffman?

  It's a really good question. It's a really good question. Why hasn't the price moved? In the world of politics, Trump has been doubling down even harder on crypto and Biden finally coming around. A request for help came out of the Biden administration as it relates to crypto. So crypto nonetheless stacking up political winds, no matter what side of the aisle you're on. And then Caitlyn Jenner releases Jenner Coin on Solana, followed by another of other celeb coin releases. What the hell is going on over there? Are these scams? Are they good or bad for crypto? What are people's takes about them? And then we also have a big fat layer two update section. We got a based roll up framework that just launched.

• 4:14David Hoffman?

  ENS building its own layer two base. The base chain is increasing its capacity. Lots of great layer two updates as well.

• 4:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Before we get in, want to shout out our friends over at Transporter, which is a a bridging app that we enjoy a lot. It's based on chain link CCIP technology, which is some really cool tech. What can folks do with with Transporter right now, David?

• 4:35David Hoffman?

  They can just bridge all their assets across all the chains, Arbitrum, any EVM chain, really, Arbitrum, Optimism, Polygon, Avalanche, BNB, and then they're working on just adding more chains and more assets, of course. And so Chainlink CCIP, there's a bunch of different ways to build a bridge. CCIP is built with security first, and you'll be able to, and Transporter is like the first like consumer app that's built around the Chainlink infrastructure, which is a theme that I think we're seeing in crypto these days is apps building infrastructure, infrastructure building apps. Finally, we're getting some apps these days. So check it out at transporter.io to just send it.

• 5:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just send it. Just send your assets. Explore the world of layer two. That is the new frontier for sure. All right. Give us the new frontier of prices on the week, David. Let's start with our good old friend, the orange coin Bitcoin. What is the price on the week for Bitcoin in fiat terms, in US dollar terms, David?

• 5:28David Hoffman?

  Bitcoin, starting the week at $68,000, up 1%, basically flat, call it flat, $68,500 is where we are ending the week with Bitcoin. Ether, started the week at $3,800, down 1% to $3,760, $80 on the screen, down 1%.

• 5:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can we time out here? Down 1%?

• 5:48David Hoffman?

  Down 1%.

• 5:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Down 1% from last Thursday.

• 5:52David Hoffman?

  From last Thursday, yeah.

• 5:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  From the time we were recording the roll up last week, we didn't know whether the Ethereum ETF was approved. There was speculation.

• 6:00David Hoffman?

  Correct. And then it was approved.

• 6:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  We are 1% up.

• 6:05David Hoffman?

  No, 1% down.

• 6:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  1% down?

• 6:08David Hoffman?

  And we're 1% down.

• 6:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's even more insulting.

• 6:10David Hoffman?

  We got a confirmed ETH ETF approval and we are 1% down from that moment. I mean, granted, we had a 25% increase. And so like a lot of that-

• 6:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  We had a 25% increase that we were celebrating.

• 6:23David Hoffman?

  We were celebrating breakfast.

• 6:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, like, like last week, that was on the speculation that we might get an Ethereum ETF. And that was Monday. We called that the God candle. That happened the Monday, like last Monday, basically, not this Monday, but the previous Monday. And now after approval, we've been basically like flat. Did we even break 4K?

• 6:42David Hoffman?

  No, we did not break 4K.

• 6:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  We didn't break 4K?

• 6:45David Hoffman?

  We did not break 4K.

• 6:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  What is wrong with these charts? Can I-

• 6:47David Hoffman?

  I don't know, dude. They're the wrong charts.

• 6:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Well, you know what? We're not going to dwell on that too much right now because I know we have an Ethereum ETF update a bit later in the episode and we got to talk about price. We got to talk about when it's getting priced in, if it's going to get priced in, what is going on here? But how about the ETH Bitcoin ratio? What's that looking like?

• 7:08David Hoffman?

  0.055, flat on the week. Nothing moving there. And then, of course, total crypto market cap coming in at $2.69 trillion. Still hovering below 2.7. Still below cycle all time highs. We're still below cycle all time highs.

• 7:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's do an Ethereum ETF update. All right, so where we left things last week, we were very optimistic that would be approved. I'm glad that that held up in the roll up, David. I'm glad we got it approved because that would have been a quite an inaccurate roll up if we didn't. What has happened since that time? So we got the approval on Thursday at what, like 5:30, something like that? Got lots of bankless episodes about that approval. What happened this week on the course to actually getting these products out to market?

• 7:53David Hoffman?

  Nothing actually too much. BlackRock has filed their S1, which is the second of two steps that comes with an ETF actually being launched. The 19B4Bs getting approved is like 99% of the battle. And then the final 1% is just the S1s getting approved. So BlackRock has amended their S1 registration. Interestingly, they have also seeded their own ETF with, I think, $10 million. So BlackRock actually bought $10 million of ETH last week to seed their own ETF. The BlackRock ticker will be ETHA.

• 8:29David Hoffman?

  And so James Safer just commenting on this activity saying, "This is almost certainly the activity that we were looking for on the S1s." Again, once the 19B4Bs or whatever got approved by the ETF, it's basically a shared bet with this small little like 1% bump, which is the S1s. But then James Safer comes in and says, "This is almost certainly the engagement we were looking for on the S1s following the 19B4 approvals. Issuers and the SEC are working towards bot Ethereum ETF launches." So if last week we had with the 19B4 approval, we were at 99% chance. We're moving towards like 99.9% trams. Basically, we're getting there. Yeah.

• 9:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. And how long will it take? Here's a tweet from Nate G, who asked the question, "When will the SEC approve spot ETH registration statements? Nobody knows for sure, but my expectation would be next few weeks." So sometime this summer. He also says two to three months max. The heavy lifting has already been done. Yeah, so it's happening this summer, right? We're gonna get the Ethereum ETFs trading sometime in the next couple of weeks. And hopefully, like, it won't take that long. Has the SEC commented at all about this? What have they said? What has Gary Gensler said about this?

• 9:42David Hoffman?

  Notably little. And when we had the Bitcoin ETF approvals, you actually got to see the votes for the ETF. Who of the SEC chairs voted yes, who voted no? This part was actually hidden for some weird bureaucratic reason. There's like a vote, it was like a decision by delegation or whatever. And then the conspiracy, of course, is that like, they were just called up by the Biden administration and told to approve it. And so they didn't want to have the voting process because they didn't want that part disclosed. And so overall, like, the news really has been kind of just incremental because all the news happened last week. And then now it's been basically like trad finance media, like CNBC and like Fast Money and all these like trad orders.

• 10:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Getting caught up on this?

• 10:24David Hoffman?

  Getting caught up and like getting people's takes, which we're gonna cover people's takes when they were like asked to present. Like, what is the Ethereum ETF?

• 10:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  So the SEC is just saying nothing? And that is so different from the Ethereum or from the Bitcoin ETF, right?

• 10:36David Hoffman?

  Because they were dragged kicking and screaming, so.

• 10:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  A spokesperson for the SEC said the agency won't be commenting beyond the approval order. So don't expect anything. They'll never mention it. It's just an unmentionable product that they just approved, I guess.

• 10:49David Hoffman?

  Never mind how we are now a political tool from the whims of the president instead of a biased or unbiased neutral like market regulator. That's why they can't comment.

• 10:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  At least it's politically in our favor this time. I mean, I guess I'm okay with that. That's the game it sounds like we all have to play. So here's the big question, though. Let's get back to the ETH price. So we are flat on the week, basically. Even 1% down, as insulting as that is. The big question is, is this going to be a price driver? What will the inflows look like? We had James Safer on the podcast last week. And I think he and Eric Balchunas, who are the Bloomberg analysts behind ETFs, think that the flows will actually be pretty, pretty small, at least relative to Bitcoin.

• 11:31David Hoffman?

  They're the more conservative ones.

• 11:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'd say more conservative trending towards, I wouldn't, maybe don't call this bearish, but they think 10 to 20% of Bitcoins net inflows. So that's their take, that's the baseline. I'm gonna show you.

• 11:44David Hoffman?

  I would call them as tampering expectations.

• 11:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 11:47David Hoffman?

  Is what I would say their takes are.

• 11:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  I want to get into maybe some more, less conservative predictions, maybe some more bullish predictions about inflows. Is that okay with you?

• 11:55David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah? You want to get some more liberal predictions about the price movements?

• 11:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do, yeah.

• 11:59David Hoffman?

  Let's do it.

• 11:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because I think we deserve it after, after like a 1% down on the week. So here's, here's one case study for you. I read this in the grayscale report this week. So you know Bloomberg projects 10 to 20% of Bitcoin net inflows. But if you look at ETP products, so ETP products are what ETFs are outside of the US. So if you look at, you know, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden for a benchmark, the flows to ETP products and the AUMs have been a total of 25 to 30% of Bitcoin. All right? We're not talking.

• 12:32David Hoffman?

  So, so if one mixed ETF in abroad has a dollar in it, 70%, 70 cents go to Bitcoin and 30 cents go to ETH?

• 12:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  That kind of thing. So if you look at kind of like AUM and flows and that sort of thing, it's, it's, it's not 10 to 20%. It's more along the lines of 25 to 30%. So my, my question to Bloomberg or the more the bull case is like, why only 10 to 20%? We already have these ETP products outside of the US and they're getting 25 to 30%. So that's like some bullish fodder for you. Here's another take from an analyst, QCP. And the analysis here is just like, what if, what if Ethereum pulls a Bitcoin? Pulls what a Bitcoin just did.

• 13:14David Hoffman?

  So it surprises people with demand?

• 13:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, no, just like in terms of price, not demand.

• 13:18David Hoffman?

  Oh, okay.

• 13:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  So ignoring spot, just ignoring, like, let's talk about. So QCP Capital, their expectation is a price of ETH increasing 60% in the coming weeks post the Ethereum ETF. And that would, that would take Ethereum above all time highs, which it should be right now, to 6K. And Bitcoin rose, Bitcoin rose about 66% in the, in kind of like the time after the approval. So Ethereum could rise 60%. That would take us to 6K. That seems like a, a very simple analysis. You, you recall Bitcoin went from about 44K to 73K in the two months following the approval. If, if Ethereum just did the same thing, we'd already be

• 14:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  at 6K. All right. Okay. So I mean, that feels, that still feels conservative, doesn't it? It feels, still feels conservative. Here, here's another, there's another take.

• 14:11David Hoffman?

  Both Bitcoin and ETH at like a little bit over their previous all time highs still feel conservative for just a general crypto bull market.

• 14:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, here, here's another take. Consider, this is quantifying, how much ETH is locked away since supply. There's less ETH on centralized exchanges than there is Bitcoin right now. So this is a-

• 14:30David Hoffman?

  Consider how much more sensitive ETH price movements are to the market.

• 14:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, they should be. Okay, so in terms of ETH supply, Grayscale Research believes that around 17% can be categorized as idle or relatively illiquid. 70%, that means 83% is like locked, is not liquid. All right. Where is it? It's staked ETH. Look at this. All this staked ETH, all this ETH, that's 32.6 million.

• 14:56David Hoffman?

  Ethan Ogin there.

• 14:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  All this ETH in smart contracts, dormant ETH, that's ETH that hasn't been touched in like five years. ETH in ETPs, ETH in protocol, like you add all of that up, all of that locked away, illiquid ETH, not on centralized exchanges, and you get a huge portion of supply that's kind of like likely not to move, not to be touched. So you only have 17% of supply that is liquid and tradable. That's gotta have an effect, right?

• 15:23David Hoffman?

  That, I mean, that's been the narrative. There's always been the narrative. It's like, there's just very low supply of ETH on centralized exchanges and just really able to be bought. Like, not many people are willing to give up their ETH.

• 15:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I know it's the narrative. And I'm also saying, it's in the numbers.

• 15:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  But the numbers aren't reflecting an ETH price, David.

• 15:41David Hoffman?

  The narrative is reflective of the numbers. Like, the people who I know who chant this chant are like, "Fan Spencer."

• 15:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's an informed narrative.

• 15:47David Hoffman?

  It's an informed narrative, yeah.

• 15:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  This was a great report put out by Michael from the DeFi Report. And he says that the drivers, the main questions to ask if you're trying to compare Bitcoin and Ethereum are this. Number one, what percent of Bitcoin ETF holders might rebalance to Ether? Remember, we talked about this with Matt last week? There's some percentage that just want a diversified portfolio. And most traditional investors aren't complete Bitcoin maximalists. And they want to buy more of the crypto market. And so they're just going to take a portion of their Bitcoin or their crypto allocation and balance it across maybe 30/70, maybe 50/50, who knows? And so that's the number one source of inflows.

• 16:34David Hoffman?

  And that makes sense because we know how bad like the ETH/Bitcoin ratio has been doing ever since the Bitcoin ETF was approved. And then it also bounced back marginally from 0.045 to 0.55, 0.055, once it was approved. And so that ratio probably has still legs in it because there's like $60 billion in Bitcoin ETFs and $0 billion in ETH ETFs.

• 16:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and I think there will be some amount of investors who just go to a 50/50 allocation, just 50 on Bitcoin, 50 on Ether. There's also a percentage of investors who might outright opt for Ether instead of Bitcoin. And that's going to be a factor, some amount out there, it's greater than zero anyway, who will just directly buy Ether. And maybe it's because they were on the sideline and they missed the Bitcoin ETF. So they're like, "Okay, we missed that one, saw how big it was, didn't anticipate it, now we're going to pile in Ether." And that's like a sensible trade right now. And then you also have momentum hits. So when price starts to rise on Ether, people FOMO in, we get kind of like a momentum type trade, that could be a source of inflows too.

• 17:39David Hoffman?

  And if the ETH market price on centralized exchanges is indeed extremely sensitive to the marginal dollar, like people say that it is, that reflexivity boost carries more weight because you just get more reflexivity.

• 17:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly. So, let's do some, Michael does some napkin math here, okay? So, just napkin math, broadest of strokes, assume this cycle, we get to a $10 trillion market cap. And I think you and I called a cycle around that, it was 10 to 15 trillion, something like that. So, that seems reasonable.

• 18:09David Hoffman?

  This is a Krzyzewski number as well.

• 18:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally. Okay. And so Bitcoin was 43% of total crypto market cap last cycle. Let's assume this cycle it's 40%, alright? So, 43 to 40, pretty reasonable. And then ETH last cycle was 50%, okay, of Bitcoin market cap. This cycle, let's assume it's dialed down a little bit. So, let's assume ETH is 45% of Bitcoin market cap, okay? That means cycle.

• 18:38David Hoffman?

  Which is, currently is at 35%, by the way.

• 18:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which is low. Like, again, that ratio is slower than it should be. That would put, again, not financial advice, subjective opinion, whatever, saltiness. That would put ETH market cap at the cycle peak of $1.8 trillion, alright? So, that's roughly a $15,000 price of ETH. Above 10K, 15K price of ETH at cycle peak.

• 19:12David Hoffman?

  Numbers check out, bro. 15K, sounds pretty good. Like, I feel like, I feel like that was our napkin math, like, at the very beginning of the bull market.

• 19:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Still the napkin math.

• 19:20David Hoffman?

  What's your sell target? And it's like, at the highest point, it's like 15K?

• 19:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  We just gotta poke the charts.

• 19:27David Hoffman?

  We're getting closer. We're getting closer. We're getting more informed napkin math as we get closer.

• 19:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I want you to talk about the ETH narrative. That's important. So, in order for this napkin math to work out, there has to be demand for Ether among TradFi for this Ethereum ETF if we want to get the flows that we ask for. Let me set you up with this tweet. And I know you've got some comments about the current ETH narrative. And what that's shaping up to be in TradFi. But this is Zach Light. I just spoke with a friend who is a big investment manager in New York City. It's the first time he has shown genuine interest in Ethereum before the ETH ETF regulatory barriers made it impossible for them to invest in Ether. Ethereum has now entered the mainstream, but institutions are significantly underexposed due to previous regulations. We may be going much higher and faster than I thought.

• 20:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Now, Zach Light, I spoke to a friend. I don't know what account this is. It's an Anon account, but it kind of captures the spirit of it, which is TradFi is significantly underexposed, maybe due to regulatory concerns. That would be the hope here.

• 20:29David Hoffman?

  And this is not just about the ETF getting approved. This is not just about like traditional financial institutions. They can only buy ETFs. This is also about the clarity that Ether is getting because it's now formally a commodity. Something that died last week is the idea that Ethereum Ether might be an unregistered security.

• 20:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  So dead.

• 20:48David Hoffman?

  Dead everywhere. While Ryan and I and many in the Ethereum community is like, that's silly. Of course it's not like nonetheless, financial institutions still like if there's a 5% chance, a 3% chance that ETH might be an unregistered security, they can't touch it. So now with the ETH ETF, they can buy it as an ETF, but also it's given regulatory clarity as a commodity, which de-risks the asset in a very significant way to financial institutions who might have otherwise have got and bought Vanilla spot Ether on a centralized exchange because they have an account. So ETH is also benefiting from that. It's getting tailwinds from that and the market is currently digesting this.

• 21:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. David Hoffman, so what narrative do we take to them? This is your tweet here.

• 21:30David Hoffman?

  This is the big question that I think the Ethereum community is kind of processing is how do we sell Ether? How as salespeople of Ether, how do we describe it? How do we pitch it? How do we, like when people are listening to us, how do we sell it to them? People are now interested in the Ethereum ETF. They need to understand what they're actually purchasing. One of the things that we've said on Bankless many times is one of the most bullish things is to be understood. So how do we get people to understand Ether? Like what is a memetic descriptor about? Ether the asset and there's a bunch of different ideas that are being floated around. Digital oil is a common one. An internet bond is a common one. Programmable money. Tokenization platform is one that I've seen come and go throughout the years.

• 22:12David Hoffman?

  And so I kind of just put out this tweet, it's like asking like, let's collect all the ideas. And let's also hear how people are explaining it actually to like in the TradFi context.

• 22:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  By the way, in this tweet, did you get other ideas beyond digital oil, internet bond, programmable money, tokenization? Did you get other new, fresh ideas?

• 22:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah, like dog shit ones. Yeah.

• 22:33David Hoffman?

  So nothing that you had. We cannot, we cannot go to like BlackRock and say, hey, guys, Ethereum is a world computer. This is how you should pitch it to your clients. Like world computer? Like, no, that generates further questions. That is confusing.

• 22:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 22:48David Hoffman?

  Like Ether, Ethereum, it's web three. It's like, it's the DeFi backbone. These are, these are not good like sales of Ether.

• 22:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  I kind of, I kind of liked Matt's, Matt Hogan's approach to it, which is like Bitcoin is digital gold. Do you want to believe that? Bitcoin is digital gold. There's more to finance than gold. Ethereum is everything else. That kind of simple line. Everything else, basically.

• 23:11David Hoffman?

  Well, so Matt Hogan called it a software platform, which is actually one of the themes that I'm seeing a lot of people actually illustrate Ethereum to be. Let's kind of go through some of these. So here's Vance Spencer on Bloomberg Technology, giving the pitch for Ethereum versus the Bitcoin ETF.

• 23:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Should we rate this pitch afterwards? Let's play, let's play Vance.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  What are the principal differences in Bitcoin spot ETF, Ether spot ETF? But I guess what we're actually asking is the principal difference between an Ethereum based blockchain and Bitcoin blockchain.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  So Bitcoin's digital gold, right? And you know, you can view the rigidness of its roadmap, you know, there is no future roadmap for Bitcoin being either a future of a bug or a bug in the sense that you know Bitcoin is going to be Bitcoin for the next hundred years. ETH is at the forefront of the tokenization movement that is going to really define the next few decades of traditional finance. We're going to start with the stable coins, the hundred billion dollars of stable coins that are on chain today. But now BlackRock's bringing on fixed income. People bringing on equities. People are bringing on commodities. People are bringing on private credit. And so ETH is at the forefront of that movement and it's also just a very different asset. You know, it does about two to three billion dollars of profits per year. It dividends those out. The asset itself is deflationary, you know, is proof of stake.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  It's a very different asset than Bitcoin. I would say it's more of a textile growth play. And if Bitcoin is digital gold, ETH is Apple. It's building the App Store of finance. And just like people thought that, you know, the App Store was a toy or a gimmick, you know, 10 years ago. People are going to be really surprised at the uniqueness of the fees and the, and just the scale of the business that ETH is going to generate from the tokenization way that's taking place. And it's Larry Fink, it's Paul Tudor Jones, it's all these guys, you know, they're all in this trend.

• 24:59David Hoffman?

  Okay, I, so he went through a couple of different angles here. He started with tokenization. Yep. He then talked about on-chain assets, real-world assets moving on-chain, starting with stablecoins and then name dropped to BlackRock and the Biddle Fund. Private credit, which we're doing. So we're talking about real-world assets that TradFi already knows exists coming on-chain to Ethereum. And then he moved into it being a textile growth play with an App Store-like property, a developer ecosystem. Yeah. And then did you see they showed the apps on the screen? Totally. They showed the apps on the screen, which like people can resonate with. And so this is, these are mental models that TradFi already has. Like, there's already assets out there that they know that are huge.

• 25:40David Hoffman?

  There is already like a developer ecosystem based off of Apple and Ethereum is something like that. And then Ether, the asset, he name dropped like things like it pays off dividends, which is like actually like technically not true, but meaningfully definitely true. The asset itself is deflationary. It's kind of true. It's like stock buyback is the burn and then... Well, stock buyback is a stock buyback. A dividend is a dividend. Sure. But I'm being, I'm being like... I get it. I get it. Go on, go on. Yeah. And I really like that pitch. I really like that pitch. And I think it's actually smart, even though like when you asked to explain, hey, what's Ether? Starting with tokenization is actually adjacent. Yeah. But I don't think it matters. Like, I think like if you're talking and selling this to TradFi,

• 26:23David Hoffman?

  like I think tokenization is actually like very resonant with them. So give it a letter grade. What would you give it? I give that one an A. I give that one an A. I do too. Well done, Vance. Well done, Vance. Well done, Vance. Okay, so next up, Anthony Pompliano. This one's much shorter, only 20 seconds long, on Fox Business. Let's hear how Anthony Pompliano pitches the Ether ETF. Wait, Anthony's pitching, Pomp is pitching ETH now? Uh, a little bit, yeah. All right, let's get into it.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Well, just think Bitcoin, I think, is this unique thing that has a very clean story, right? It's a store of value. When you get into these other things, they're technology platforms. So now you start talking about what's the difference between Facebook, Amazon, Google, et cetera? They're all competing for different kind of aspects of the consumer. And so I think when you look at Ethereum, Solana, and many others, they're tech platforms competing with each other. And so the story just isn't as clean as Bitcoin exclusively.

• 27:07David Hoffman?

  So still promoting the Bitcoin story as like the unique one and calling all the other ones tech platforms? But another big plus one to tech platforms.

• 27:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tech platform at least. It's still not advanced level. I mean, I would give a different letter grade to that.

• 27:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we don't have a video for this one. This is just Jeff Dorman on Twitter, who says, "Attention BlackRock, VanEck, digital assets, Bitwise. Once the ETH ETF goes live, please erase the words 'supercomputer, ultrasound money, and internet bond' from your memory. This does not resonate with anyone." What does? Ethereum is an app store. ETH is Apple Pay. I kind of throw a grudge with the Apple Pay thing, but like, he's doing the same thing, which I'm saying. It's like ultrasound money, like, we're not selling... Ultrasound money is for the crypto insider. That is for the crypto settler.

• 27:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ultrasound money was so important in 2019, 2020, 2021, like when Ethereum was like, was not recognized as a global reserve asset, store of value, the way Bitcoin is. But it was for internal. It was like a frame of reference.

• 28:08David Hoffman?

  For the crypto industry to come to consensus about what Ether is. It's also importantly, was also a jab towards the Bitcoiners who bullied Ethereum for years and years and years. It's meant to be facetious. About its issuance policy, basically. Exactly, exactly. It was never meant to be like, hey, we're gonna pitch BlackRock on ultrasound money. That's never how it was intended.

• 28:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bitcoin Bitcoin's narrative to BlackRock isn't sound money even. It's just gold. It's different.

• 28:31David Hoffman?

  Totally, totally. Yeah, well Bitcoin, gold is sound money, but you don't actually say those words. You just say gold. Yeah. And so like, again, Jeff's really saying, hey, like all your like crypto native words like supercomputer and internet bond, like, no, no, no, get rid of that. It's another, it's a tech stock growth play. And so, adjacently, but actually extremely relevantly, Patrick McHenry announced a Digital Assets Financial Technology and Inclusion Subcommittee Hearing. And so this is a Subcommittee of the House. The title of this hearing is Next Generation Infrastructure.

• 29:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 29:04David Hoffman?

  How Tokenization of Real World Assets Will Facilitate Efficient Markets. So there's a hearing being called to Congress by Patrick McHenry on, under this title. Next Generation Infrastructure, Tokenization of Real World Assets, and how it will facilitate efficient markets. I think that that's a lot of words just to say Ethereum. I think that is a great description of what Ethereum is.

• 29:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, no, I agree. It's all very cool. And for people who look back at this and be like, ah, it's all so contrived. Narratives don't matter. Marketing doesn't matter. I'll just point to like, go back to the 90s and how people were trying to describe the internet. They used all sorts of different mental models and unlocks to try to propagate help understanding of the internet. Do you remember information superhighway? Some of these sounds like cyberspace.

• 29:48David Hoffman?

  Something about surfing?

• 29:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, surf the web, surf the web, right? And the idea around that was like, you can go on your own kind of like fun experience with like, you know, search directories and websites and you'll find things yourself. All of these medic stories and narratives were used to describe the internet and it was important. And some of them have a shelf life and some of them are no longer necessary, but they were very useful in helping people capture and imagine what the potential of this technology is. So we're just doing the exact same thing here. And it's going to be a different narrative that works on a more mainstream tradfi crowd than the narratives that work on crypto natives.

• 30:27David Hoffman?

  Totally. All right, Ryan, I would like to challenge you.

• 30:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh.

• 30:30David Hoffman?

  Since I'm not, I'm not fighting Nick, I'd like to fight you about something else. I think next week, next Thursday weekly roll up, we each go and work, do our own homework and come back next, it was seven days from now, with a one-minute pitch for either the asset. I will pitch, I will pitch you mine.

• 30:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  To who? To tradfi?

• 30:49David Hoffman?

  To TradFi, to TradFi. Yeah, TradFi is, BlackRock is the audience.

• 30:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Our best elevator pitch?

• 30:55David Hoffman?

  Our best elevator pitch.

• 30:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Should I wear a suit for this? Should I wear a tie?

• 30:58David Hoffman?

  Yeah, you should definitely wear a suit and tie. That'll, that'll help your, help your presentation.

• 31:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 31:02David Hoffman?

  And then the Bankless, the Bankless audience will pick a winner between, between you and me.

• 31:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ah, I love this. Challenge accepted, because this won't cost me any broken ribs. This is the easiest, uh, yeah, this is my kind of challenge, alright?

• 31:12David Hoffman?

  You don't have to go anywhere.

• 31:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Alright, I'm getting in the fight. That's amazing.

• 31:15David Hoffman?

  Game on, game on.

• 31:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'll see you next week then. Be ready, David. What do we got coming up?

• 31:21David Hoffman?

  Coming up next is Michael Saylor, of all people, warming up to ETH. How's he gonna pitch ETH? Donald Trump also doubling down on being the crypto presidential candidate? And how is the Biden administration reacting to that? And also, celebrity meme coin influencer launching on Solana. What does Jennercoin mean for the future of finance? Really important questions.

• 31:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very important.

• 31:44David Hoffman?

  All of this stuff coming up next, as soon as we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially Kraken, our preferred crypto exchange for crypto assets in 2024. If you not have an account with Kraken, consider clicking the links in the show notes to getting started with Kraken today. If you want a crypto trading experience backed by world-class security and award-winning support teams, then head over to Kraken, one of the longest-standing and most secure crypto platforms in the world. Kraken is on a journey to build a more accessible, inclusive, and fair financial system, making it simple and secure for everyone, everywhere, to trade crypto. Kraken's intuitive trading tools are designed to grow with you, empowering you to make your first or your 100th trade in just a few clicks. And there's an award-winning client support team available 24/7 to help you along the way, along with a whole range of educational guides, articles, and videos.

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• 33:14David Hoffman?

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• 33:56David Hoffman?

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• 34:39David Hoffman?

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• 34:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  We've got a tale of two pivots this week, and these might be reluctant pivots. I'm not, I'm not quite sure, but the first is from Michael Saylor. And I don't know if this is a full pivot, so we'll let the audience decide. But of course, you know, in the past, Michael Saylor has been a laser-eyed maxi, let's say. He's been-

• 35:05David Hoffman?

  Mono asset maxi, yeah.

• 35:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  There is no second best. He has been-

• 35:10David Hoffman?

  How many chairs are you sitting on right now?

• 35:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  How many chairs are you sitting on right now? Can you sit on two chairs? No. Can you hold more than one crypto asset?

• 35:17David Hoffman?

  Ironically, Ryan has a chair behind him as he sits on a different chair.

• 35:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, multiple chairs. I have an entire couch behind us. Of course, you can have multiple chairs in your house. Anyway, that was old Sailor. And he sounded a little bit like this. This is Michael Sailor. Let's play a clip from three weeks ago of Michael Sailor. I think he was talking here about the potential for the Ethereum ETF. Let's play this.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  When Ethereum is not going to be approved sometime this summer, it'll be very clear to everyone that Ethereum is deemed a crypto asset security, not a commodity. After that, you're going to see that Ethereum, BNB, Solana, Ripple, Cardano, everything down the stack is just a crypto asset security unregistered. None of them will ever be wrapped by a spot ETF. None of them will be accepted by Wall Street. None of them will be accepted by mainstream institutional investors as crypto assets. This is the one universal consensus-accepted institutional-grade crypto asset in the world. There won't be another one.

• 36:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  He was very certain of that, David.

• 36:21David Hoffman?

  My how things change. Wow.

• 36:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just three weeks ago.

• 36:23David Hoffman?

  Three weeks ago. This came out very recently. This was on Peter McCormick's What Bitcoin Did podcast, post-ETF approval. Let's hear from him again.

• 36:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, Michael Sailor.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  And, you know, so here's what I think. I think, I think two weeks before, the world looked like Bitcoin was going to be the only asset securitized and, and offered as a spot ETF by the Wall Street establishment. And it was going to spread as the one legitimate crypto asset. I think right now, the best expectation is the crypto asset class will be legitimized, supported by both parties. There's an industry. Crypto is an asset class. There's an entire range of use cases. 24/7 digital trading, digital art, you know, NFTs, tokens, you know, decentralized

• 37:17Speaker 05

  this, functionality, DeFi. There's a lot of things that will, will be considered in, in a more open light. And Bitcoin will be the leader of the crypto asset class. And, and if you look at it and say, well, is this good for Bitcoin or not? Yeah, I think it's good for Bitcoin. I think, in fact, it may be better for Bitcoin because I think that we are politically much more powerful.

• 37:43Speaker 05

  You know, supported by the entire crypto industry, right? They obviously have a lot of political power, a lot of users and, and they serve

• 37:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  I love how he refers to the crypto industry as that.

• 37:53Speaker 05

  ... as another line of defense for Bitcoin. So I think instead of someone saying, well, there's one crypto asset, maybe I'll allocate 1% of my money to it. I think mainstream investors might say, oh, there's a crypto asset class now and maybe we'll allocate 5% or 10% to the crypto asset class, but Bitcoin will be 60% or 70% of that. So I actually think it could accelerate institutional adoption.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  We're back to indexing.

• 38:17Speaker 05

  It's good for marketing. Yeah, there'll be, there'll be all these other things that'll happen and you just kind of have to rethink, you know, all of your models and, and move forward in a new world.

• 38:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I don't, I don't feel like I need to rethink many models here, but this is, this is maybe Michael Saylor rethinking his model of there is only one crypto asset. And it's funny to me that it took the Ethereum ETF to just have him pull a 180 on this. Like, how do you make sense of that?

• 38:49David Hoffman?

  I don't know if he is fully pulling a 180. Like, he's very much still a Bitcoiner, but it is, it is a tampering of his tone. And it's also like, also a big tent mentality as well. So being a little bit more inclusive to like the crypto industry and I think discovering that maybe it's best not to fight them, but to just align with them because that helps promote Bitcoin, which is true. And I agree with.

• 39:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you think maybe he saw how powerful politically the crypto faction is?

• 39:18David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 39:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  When they're unified and working together and he doesn't want to fight against that, that current?

• 39:22David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  As part of it?

• 39:24David Hoffman?

  Definitely, definitely.

• 39:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is Anthony Sisano making a prediction here, saying Saylor will buy ETH within the next six to 12 months.

• 39:32David Hoffman?

  Now, that's a big prediction. However, Anthony's last big prediction was that the ETF was going to get approved. So I'm not, I'm not in the camp of like fading a Sassel prediction.

• 39:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, why wouldn't he just like rationally, economically, just run the same play back? He basically did this. He started stacking Bitcoin when it, you know, like was on the cusp of a kind of like regulatory approval, not, not a security. He could just take out all of those, those loans and all those bonds and start buying Ether as well.

• 40:00David Hoffman?

  Well, yeah.

• 40:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  As a beta play.

• 40:02David Hoffman?

  He could also take those same things and also buy Bitcoin.

• 40:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually.

• 40:09David Hoffman?

  It's not like he has another company that he's like, oh, I'll just run this playbook with some other company that I have for ETH. Like, he's not, he only has, he only has one fuel tank.

• 40:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm gonna give this some high probability here. I, I think Anthony could be right. Above 50% in 6 to 12 months.

• 40:24David Hoffman?

  MicroStrategy owns Bitcoin by the end of 12 months. Of Ether. Of Ether.

• 40:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:32David Hoffman?

  Oof, wow, that would be bullish.

• 40:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let me just also make out another call. Michael Saylor, I think, should just come on Bankless. He hasn't been on Bankless before. That's when you will, that will be the signal that the Band-Aid's been ripped off, that the hatchet is buried with, like, Ethereum hating. If he comes on, comes on Bankless and gives us the case of why Ethereum is good for Bitcoin, we'll do that podcast for sure.

• 40:55David Hoffman?

  I don't know if he wants to give that take. I don't know if he wants to give that take.

• 40:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, he will when he's ready to buy Ether, I think.

• 41:01David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 41:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe shortly after.

• 41:02David Hoffman?

  If he is buying Ether, then he will likely also come on the podcast.

• 41:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's talk, let's talk about some more presidential pivots. And I guess we have to class Trump as this, given that a couple of years ago, he was very anti-crypto.

• 41:14David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 41:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  But he, he's here, just in the past few days, doubling down on crypto yet again. Let's watch this clip.

• 41:21Speaker 06

  I will ensure that the future of crypto and the future of Bitcoin will be made in the USA, not driven overseas. I will support the right to self custody to the nation's 50 million crypto holders. I say this with your vote. I will keep Elizabeth Warren and her goons away from your Bitcoin. And I will never allow the creation of a central bank digital currency.

• 41:51Speaker 06

  I will also.

• 41:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  David.

• 41:53David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 41:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Self custody.

• 41:54David Hoffman?

  He said the word self custody.

• 41:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  He said, keep crypto, Bitcoin away from Elizabeth Warren and her goons.

• 42:01David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, these are the talking points.

• 42:04David Hoffman?

  That's very on-brand for him.

• 42:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  But these are the talking points that crypto, like, the crypto community really wants to hear.

• 42:08David Hoffman?

  These are not Trump's words. This is a Trump advisor telling him what to say, which is fine.

• 42:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  A hundred, a hundred percent it is. And, and the word self custody, I mean, that is, that is.

• 42:21David Hoffman?

  The word self custody came out of a presidential candidate's mouth. It's like pretty damn cool. He actually didn't stop there. This was even more like niche and crypto native. Donald Trump says that he vows to commute the sentence of Ross Ulbricht to time served if he's elected president. So Ross Ulbricht, the Dread Pirates Roberts of the Silk Road, famous case, he's in jail for life, basically. And, and Donald Trump says that Ross Ulbricht is like a martyr of libertarian Austrian values, the Bitcoin movement. He like the whole like Silk Road was actually one of the first big Bitcoin apps to use Bitcoin. Just like a hero in, in the libertarian space. And since he's already served 10 years, Donald Trump is saying that's enough.

• 43:03David Hoffman?

  And he will pardon, he will pardon Ross Ulbricht and let him go free, which is like, again, deeply crypto native, very Bitcoiner of him. David Bailey from Bitcoin Media is an advisor to the Trump administration. So like, if it's not David Bailey, it's somebody like him, who's like telling Trump to say these things. And it's like definitely working.

• 43:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just like months ago, I don't think crypto was on the election issue list of issues at all. And now this is quickly turning into like a crypto election. At least crypto is one of the election issues that, that Trump is trying to differentiate himself on. And so like the big question is, what's the game theory? So like, what does Biden do next? And this is interesting. I don't know if you, do you catch this article yesterday? This is from The Block. The Biden campaign ramps up crypto industry outreach and surprising tone shift. Okay, so apparently the Biden reelection campaign is reaching out to people in the industry, people in crypto, for guidance on crypto community and policy.

• 44:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  So they're reaching out to people in crypto, saying, how can we?

• 44:10David Hoffman?

  Please help.

• 44:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Please help with our.

• 44:12David Hoffman?

  Help, we need help.

• 44:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Help us say stuff like words like self custody and be like crypto and like do the thing that, that Trump is doing. This is what the campaign is actually advising Biden to do, so.

• 44:25David Hoffman?

  Which I think someone should step up for. Like, I know Biden leaves a very bad taste in people's mouths and, but like, we need both people, like people in the crypto industry. We want somebody on whispering in Trump's ears. We want somebody whispering in Biden's ears, shouldn't matter. We just want both political parties to have a strong crypto advocate telling them what to do.

• 44:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crypto should not be a partisan issue, right?

• 44:47David Hoffman?

  Totally.

• 44:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's, it's complete American values here.

• 44:50David Hoffman?

  Granted, Donald Trump's like ability to like move very quickly on this is winning him the crypto vote regardless because Biden is so like tepid about it and he's confused.

• 45:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  The Biden administration's track, track record under Elizabeth Warren has been absolutely terrible for the past couple of years. And I think it'll be very telling. So you remember the Sab 121 repeal that is still waiting on Biden's desk for signature or veto. And he has previously said he's going to veto it. This is like not too long ago, it's like three weeks ago, he said he would veto it. The deadline, David, is Monday, June 3rd. And the big question is, will he veto it or will he let it pass? If he does nothing, by the way, it de facto passes.

• 45:31David Hoffman?

  Hayden gives a take here, Hayden Adams, he says, "The too little too late slash this is pandering to the crowd, people about the Biden pivot is missing the point. The democratic establishment finally realized being anti crypto by letting Warren run financial policy will lose elections. This is a big deal. Nothing politicians care about more than winning elections. It's a new era." So I think there's, there's some people here like who's saying like, "It doesn't matter, ignore Biden, he doesn't matter, like Trump is the crypto, the crypto president candidate." And Hayden is saying like, "Both, both can be crypto candidates and that's good for us."

• 46:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it certainly wins in our favor as well. And, and David, we've got more congressional hearings as well. Our bowtie evangelist in, in Congress, Patrick McHenry, you were mentioning that, that hearing on digital assets and financial technology and you gave the name of it earlier. That is happening next week as well.

• 46:22David Hoffman?

  Wednesday, 9 a.m. Eastern Time, June 5th. It's, I mean, it's a hearing, it's a congressional hearing, so it's probably going to be boring. But I'm pretty sure this is the first ever congressional hearing that's strictly about crypto, other than the audit of the FTX collapse. So ignoring that one, this is the first one that's like solely about crypto, that's also about crypto, the technology, not crypto, the fraud. And so, yeah, that's the, whatever conversations come out of that, we'll, we'll hear about Wednesday up next week. It's also like how exciting that's going to be, it's going to be determined about. Who they call up to like testify, like you could see like BlackRock or like Securitized, anyone doing tokenization, like advocating and like giving their testimony for crypto. And so that would be pretty like interesting to hear.

• 47:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I think it's spreading education and awareness. And he'll get much more eyes on this on this hearing than previously since it is an election issue. All right, let's talk about celebrity coin influenza. I have been paying almost no attention to this. I'm not sure I like I even want to in this segment, but let's give it a go. What in the world happened with Caitlyn Jenner and these celeb coins last week?

• 47:29David Hoffman?

  Okay, so Caitlyn Jenner on Sunday randomly just tweeted out an address and a pump fun link and about her token, the Jenner token, hashtag Jenner that she launched using pump dot fun on Solana. And everyone was like, what the hell is going on? What the hell is Caitlyn Jenner doing? Launching a token on pump dot fun? Is this AI? Is this an AI scam? Like, what's going on?

• 47:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  But it was her Twitter account.

• 47:55David Hoffman?

  It was her Twitter account with a video of Caitlyn Jenner in a robe, by the way, with like her initials on the robe. Can we actually play this video? Because it's like kind of surreal.

• 48:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sure, I guess so. Here, here we go. Caitlyn Jenner saying this is not a deep fake.

• 48:12Speaker 07

  Hi, everybody. This is Caitlyn Jenner here. I know. Actually, I'm just, I've been running around all day playing golf and Sophia, my CEO, has been doing a wonderful job with my new crypto coin. Yes, this is for real. Get involved. It's going to be very good. So I'm very excited about it. And I'm looking forward to the future for the next couple of hours. So keep the sales going. This is exciting.

• 48:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Did she just say, I'm looking forward to the future for the next?

• 48:44David Hoffman?

  Next couple of hours. Keep the sales going. This is exciting. My CEO is doing a great job. I'm excited. Saying nothing about the coin. And so.

• 48:56David Hoffman?

  Turns out, okay, so the market cap of Jenner got up to $43 million in the first 24 hours. I don't know what the market cap is now.

• 49:06David Hoffman?

  6 million, 6 million.

• 49:09David Hoffman?

  Later, she discovered, she said that this dev, which maybe like approached her to like give her this idea, Sahil was like the dev helping them like do this coin. Sahil has apparently done this a number of times with other celebrities. He will just like sigh off them into launching a coin. And then like being the dev, he kind of like runs off with the liquidity. Apparently, he's done this a few times. I didn't, I don't know the full story. So Caitlyn like discovered this and she says, "Fuck Sahil," excuse my language. "He scammed us big time," after being told that like Sahil is behind the Jenner token. You would think that she would stop, but she has-

• 49:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is like an hour later, David.

• 49:51David Hoffman?

  This is an hour later, yeah.

• 49:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, 8:20 was the original and then, let's see, 9:42 PM, she tweets, "He scammed us."

• 49:59David Hoffman?

  Nonetheless, she like doubles down on her own token. And so she has like further tweets and videos, just like the one that we watched, about her like talking about her token. "It's Solana summer, hashtag Jenner, isn't going anywhere but up, especially now that son of a bitch isn't involved. I bet he won't be launching any more celeb coins again based on the conversations I've been having." Not that you know what's going on in the crypto world. I hate to do this, Ryan, but there's a second clip of her launching a token on Ethereum.

• 50:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is like the very next day or two days later?

• 50:33David Hoffman?

  This is the next day. This was yesterday. This was Wednesday, the 29th.

• 50:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, let's watch this cringe here.

• 50:38Speaker 07

  Jenner is now live on Ethereum. Let the trading begin.

• 50:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that was a big announcement. Let the, let the trading begin.

• 50:47David Hoffman?

  And you might think that she bridged over her Solana Jenner tokens to the Ethereum network and like launched the token with liquidity on Ethereum. If you thought that, you would be wrong. This is a second, it's a separate Jenner token.

• 51:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not even linked liquidity in any way.

• 51:03David Hoffman?

  No, it's just a new token.

• 51:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  What is this? We're looking at a tweet from Coffeezilla showing the "Go Directly to Jail" Monopoly card here.

• 51:13David Hoffman?

  Yeah, well, so Coffeezilla is like the YouTuber who exposes scams and frauds. He did a whole bunch of stuff in crypto when we were doing that last cycle. He's attracted the attention of Coffeezilla, which is all I have to say. But I wish the story ended here, Ryan, but it does not. Do you know who Iggy Azalea is?

• 51:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, yeah, I know Iggy, for sure.

• 51:36David Hoffman?

  Oh, I don't. I actually don't know who it is. She's a singer?

• 51:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 51:41David Hoffman?

  Okay, just as we recap the story, I put this into Grok on Twitter. Iggy Azalea has recently made waves in the crypto world with the launch of her meme coin, "Mother Iggy", hashtag "mother" on the Solana network. However, this venture has not been without controversy. Allegations of insider trading have surfaced with claims that insiders bought a significant portion of the coin supplied before its public launch, resulting in profits of approximately $2 million. So, you get the gist. If you go onto Iggy Azalea's Twitter, it's like manic tweeting about crypto shitposting and shilling her token. Just like blatant shilling, like it's going up, it's gonna go up, like "Mother, Mother, Mother, Mother." Yeah, it's just like straight meme coinery.

• 52:23David Hoffman?

  And like, again, nothing against meme coins specifically, but a central mentor and then promoter with celebrity influence of a token.

• 52:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  It feels so gross.

• 52:33David Hoffman?

  It just feels so gross.

• 52:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, like, there's nothing to these tokens.

• 52:37David Hoffman?

  There's nothing to celebrate here.

• 52:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's no cultural artifact, it's just somebody like basically shilling, using their influence to just dump on people who are buying this thing, right?

• 52:46David Hoffman?

  Totally, yeah. So, there's like, if you, they could have done it through FriendTech. They could have opened up a FriendTech account and given their token holders some utility of being able...

• 52:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Some kind of chat, something.

• 52:55David Hoffman?

  Some kind, something, some utility, but no, it's just straight token. Just straight token.

• 52:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, this is, someone put together a list of all of the celebrity coins. I guess maybe, no, is this NFTs from previous cycle?

• 53:07David Hoffman?

  Both NFTs and tokens, yeah.

• 53:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  So, this is like the latest manifestation of celebs just launching just super lazy NFT projects. Tokens and this is kind of like the ROI and how like Kevin Hart's on here. Ozzy Osbourne is on here Floyd Mayweather, Chris Brown, Myla Kunis, all of these things. And they're all like either dead, down 100% or like down 90%, 98%.

• 53:32David Hoffman?

  I would like to say it's really hard to get to negative 100% in crypto. It's really hard to go to zero.

• 53:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  This never works.

• 53:39David Hoffman?

  You usually stop at 98 or 99%.

• 53:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I feel like, you know, Myla Kunis, even the Stoner Cats thing, at least that had some artwork. There was like a bit more effort than something like this, but even that is down 100%.

• 53:50David Hoffman?

  Well, that's actually, that's on a technicality. The Myla Kunis Stoner Cats NFC was actually the highest performer here because the SEC made them give the money back. Because it was, she actually did like a full like good faith effort of trying to like make a weird TV show. Like you can, you can judge how weird it was.

• 54:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  The SEC came after, I forgot Stoner Cat was in the, well, so the SEC is going to come after these things, right?

• 54:16David Hoffman?

  I'm sure Gary Gensler would love, this is like free real estate for Gary Gensler. Yeah.

• 54:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, it's like perfect. I mean, he targets, like he goes after celebrities. These are the ones that are making that, and this is very clearly like shady, like shilling, you know, like pomp and pomp.

• 54:30David Hoffman?

  Like something is illegal here. I don't know what.

• 54:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  It feels super gross.

• 54:35David Hoffman?

  It feels super gross.

• 54:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. Well, that's the future of finance. We knew it was going to end here, right? We knew it was going to end here on the coin roller coaster. What do we got coming up?

• 54:45David Hoffman?

  Anyways, back in the layer two world, Ethereum gets its first based roll up. What the hell is a base roll up? Solana on-chain governance votes to change the economics of Solana. Interesting story and Gemini urn holders are getting their money back. And should they be happy about it or is it more like FTX? We'll unpack that. But before we get to all of that and more, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, like Mantle, the layer two with yield. Go check out Mantle. There's a link in the show notes. New projects are coming online to the Mantle Layer Two every single week. Why is this happening? Maybe it's because Mantle has been on the frontier of layer two design architecture since it first started building Mantle DA powered by technology from EigenDA. Maybe it's because users are coming on to the Mantle Layer Two to capture some. The highest yields available in DeFi and to automatically receive the points and tokens

• 55:29David Hoffman?

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• 56:10David Hoffman?

  at [email protected]. That's team@t-o-k-u dot com. Arbitrum is the leading Ethereum scaling solution that is home to hundreds of decentralized applications. Arbitrum's technology allows you to interact with Ethereum at scale with low fees and faster transactions. Arbitrum has the leading DeFi ecosystem, strong infrastructure options, flourishing NFTs, and is quickly becoming the Web3 gaming hub. Explore the ecosystem at portal.arbitrum.io. Are you looking to permissionlessly launch your own Arbitrum Orbit chain? Arbitrum Orbit allows anyone to utilize Arbitrum's secure scaling technology to build your own Orbit chain, giving you access to interoperable, customizable permissions with dedicated throughput. Whether you're a developer, an enterprise, or a user, Arbitrum Orbit lets you take your project to new heights.

• 56:55David Hoffman?

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• 57:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, let's get into the Layer 2 news. This update is also brought to you by Mantle. So let's talk about total value locked. We are close to all-time highs, total value locked on Layer 2s. One thing that I observed, David, in the top 10 here is the ZK EVMs have been kind of lagging. So if you look at like-

• 57:30David Hoffman?

  In TVL, you mean?

• 57:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  In TVL, if you look at the market share of optimistic rollups versus ZK, it's like- 95% to like 5% or 90% to 10%, something like that. And I do sort of wonder if maybe the ZK sync era token launch will start to change that. But so far, optimistic rollups are like, they have an early lead. I don't know if you have any commentary on that or thoughts on that. It does seem like ZK technology is like the better technology in the fullness of time, but they have had a slower start compared to optimistic rollups.

• 58:00David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, I think that's the right commentary. Like, the $19 billion that's on Arbitrum is just absolutely gargantuan. And it's just like liquidity against liquidity, early movers. They just get a big moat, big, big moat.

• 58:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, one of those early movers, number third, number three, rather, in terms of total locked values, Base. And they just brought an update that expanded Base's capacity by 25%. What's cool about this, of course, is no Ethereum hard forks were required for this. They just upgraded the base chain.

• 58:31David Hoffman?

  Just a base hard fork.

• 58:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Tell us about this.

• 58:33David Hoffman?

  So this has been part of the plan for Base for a while, the target to 1 gig of gas. Is that right? So we're at 6.25 milli-gas. 1,000 milli-gas will be 1 gig of gas. So we're at 6.25, we want to get to 1,000. 6.25 and 1,000 feels very far away, but not when you increase capacity by percentages every single time. So 25% increase this week. And then he says that they are looking, Jesse says that they will look to do 7.5 milli-gas later, later this same week.

• 59:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's so cool.

• 59:05David Hoffman?

  Later this same week. Now, what also came out of Base, the Base ecosystem last week, was this tweet from Xerrex Designer who says, "It's cheaper to send money on Base than over Venmo." And this is actually an announcement from Venmo saying that starting July 1st, so we got one month, transaction fees for receiving payments tagged by the sender as goods and services will be added 2.99% per transaction. And so that's actually kind of a hefty amount. And so using USDC on Base is now under a penny. And now using Venmo is like 3%. So use Base instead.

• 59:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 59:45David Hoffman?

  Honestly, Venmo, like, keep going with those fees, baby. Let's stack those fees up.

• 59:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's very cool to see like base bandwidth, basically, you know, just rise on a weekly basis. You can literally watch the bandwidth increase. That's not the only Layer 2 update we got, though. ENS has announced that they are going to roll out a rollup, ENS V2 as part of their V2 update. So what is an ENS rollup? What are the benefits of this and what are their plans?

• 1:00:11David Hoffman?

  I think the benefits are pretty simple, right? Like just lower gas fees for managing your ENS, which is a relatively like contract-heavy application. So just, you know, lower fees, faster UX, faster transactions. Every dot ETH name will have its own personal registry, so it gives users more control over the ownership of their names. And so I actually own David... No, I own Hoffman dot David dot ETH, which the owner of David dot ETH sent to me. And so he sent me Hoffman dot David.

• 1:00:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  A subdomain.

• 1:00:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so I have the... Yeah, and so he, as the owner of David dot ETH, can control that a little bit more granularly with the ENS Layer 2. I would call this an app chain. This is an app chain for ENS. They are still looking for their framework provider, so I'm sure every single framework provider, Optimism, Arbitrum, Polygon, Zcasing... Yeah, they gotta pick a framework. They're not gonna roll their own Layer 2. I'm sure they're just gonna pick something off the shelf. And so I'm sure everyone is like vying for, trying to be the ENS...

• 1:01:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it's a big one.

• 1:01:13David Hoffman?

  The ENS framework, yeah.

• 1:01:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  What I love about this, too, is they're improving the multi-chain interoperability, and they're using some chain-linked technology to do this because...

• 1:01:20David Hoffman?

  Oh, really?

• 1:01:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, the ability from any chain to just ascend to, you know, David dot Hoffman, is it Hoffman dot David dot ETH? You could just do that.

• 1:01:29David Hoffman?

  Hoffman dot David dot ETH, yeah.

• 1:01:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  You should be able to do that from any chain, and V2 will make that possible as well.

• 1:01:33David Hoffman?

  And then last in the Layer 2 updates, Tyco is out live on mainnet. What is Tyco? Tyco is a ZK EVM, but it is also a based rollup. So we all like the ZK EVM because everything's going to the ZK world and eventually... But the based rollup is the first of its kind. It's kind of the shiny new technology that Tyco's bringing to Ethereum. A base rollup is a rollup that uses Ethereum validators as sequencers for the rollup itself. So it actually kind of starts with a leg up in terms of decentralization of the sequencer. But then it also gets to tap into the state of the Ethereum layer one as it produces blocks on the Tyco layer two. And so liquidity between like you want to swap on Ethereum mainnet and liquidity inside of Tyco.

• 1:02:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's all the same pool?

• 1:02:19David Hoffman?

  Not even not perfectly the same pool, but like highly interoperable. And so like Tyco and the state of Ethereum layer one have like a very strong bond. Because the operators of both networks are the same people, which are the Ethereum validators, which is pretty cool. And they're also being pretty explicit about their token launch. They're saying they're going to distribute 5% of its 1 billion supply a few weeks after mainnet goes live. How they intend to release their distribute their token TBD. That's a really early in the lifespan of a network to also release their token, but hey, who knows?

• 1:02:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  I kind of wonder what Tyco will look like on L2B. Well, just like because it's using a decentralized sequencer out of the gate, does it have like all the pie slots full?

• 1:03:00David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's part of the pitch of Tyco is like they get some green slices.

• 1:03:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's going to launch with training wheels at first. So it'll be like multi-sig upgrade. So like that won't be green. Those slices won't be green, but it does have decentralized sequencers, I guess, right out of the right of the gate. Very cool.

• 1:03:14David Hoffman?

  Okay, speaking going into the Solana world, there was a on-chain governance vote in the Solana world to change some of the transaction economics of Solana. And so maybe people actually don't know that Solana has an on-chain delegated proof of state coin vote governance mechanism. This has been like a model for chain governance that like Tezos is like, I think pioneered on-chain governance in the first place. Solana being delegated consensus delegated proof of stake also has a very similar mechanism.

• 1:03:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  So that means people can vote on improvement proposals, yes? Or like there can be a token vote that?

• 1:03:48David Hoffman?

  So you as a soul holder delegate your soul to a validator and that validator participates in an on-chain governance vote. And so all the logic for that vote is contained and then activated on-chain.

• 1:04:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Token vote governance. Got it.

• 1:04:03David Hoffman?

  Yes. Okay, so previously, the transaction dynamics of Solana would take 50% of the transaction fee for

• 1:04:10David Hoffman?

  A Solon transaction and burn it. It's very similar to EIP 1559, just raw 50%. Instead, now because of this vote, this vote SIMD 0096, Solana is like the Solana Improvement Proposal equivalent, passed with 77% in favor, that instead of that 50% being burned is being passed to the validators as just additional compensation. Some takes from Solana leadership like Anatoly Murt have indicated that this vote makes sense and it should go through for various like more nuanced reasons. Some other people have said that this is validators being greedy and this will only further the inflation of solely asset. I don't think either Ryan or I are informed about like the depth of these conversations and like what's going on.

• 1:04:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  My take is like, I don't like on-chain governance.

• 1:04:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Why? It's just because the elites, like the validators, those with the most tokens, can really influence the outcomes of what gets shipped in a feature. And when it's an economic outcome, every validator's... Do you vote yes?

• 1:05:10David Hoffman?

  Yeah, would you like to vote yourself into more further fees?

• 1:05:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Yes.

• 1:05:13David Hoffman?

  So sure, there can be legitimate reasons, but it's like, we have seen delegated proof-of-stake systems before, and there, it's like not a stable equilibrium in terms of governance.

• 1:05:26David Hoffman?

  None, like despite the vote passed, so 77% approval, but of who? Like of the entire Solana stakeholder set? Or of like 77% approval of just like the validators? And like the average user is unaware, uninformed, doesn't care. And even if they don't care, like I would say like, it's still an important decision to measure the stakeholders.

• 1:05:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  That is a very Ethereum take if you, David.

• 1:05:49David Hoffman?

  It's a very Ethereum take.

• 1:05:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  If you want an Ethereum versus Solana take, okay? We have the ultimate debate that is going to be released. In fact, it might be already available for bankless listeners on a premium fee. If you are a citizen, a bankless citizen, if you're not, you should just upgrade for this episode. So you get early access to Anatoly versus Justin Drake. And let me tell you, it gets a bit spicy, wouldn't you say?

• 1:06:11David Hoffman?

  It's a little spicy at the end.

• 1:06:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  It starts off, have you ever seen those Hot One interviews where they like eat the?

• 1:06:17David Hoffman?

  I've watched one of them, yeah.

• 1:06:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so like they eat the chicken wings, the sauce gets hotter and hotter. It starts off and it's super mild, right? Complimenting one another, and it's so spicy towards you. Anyway, that is a place to go check that out and I'm sure you'll enjoy it. David, Gary Gensler took another L last week.

• 1:06:34David Hoffman?

  Oh yeah, right.

• 1:06:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can you believe it?

• 1:06:36David Hoffman?

  Well, actually just, no, just taxpayers, actually.

• 1:06:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let's all of us take an L when Gary takes an L. So this is your taxpayer dollars at work. Judge Shelby ordered the SEC to pay attorney's fees of $1 million and receivership fees of about 750K after finding that the commission engaged in bad faith conduct. This is a judge saying this. All right, this was a court case that was going on in the background. Let's see, it was SEC filing a complaint against debt box. I don't know all of the details, but this is a judge basically saying that the commission engaged in bad faith conduct and said it was so bad that the SEC actually has to pay the defendant's attorney fees. All right.

• 1:07:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Let me tell you, if Gary was on a crusade to like just end SEC legitimacy with respect to crypto in like one term under his tenure, like he's well on his way to doing that. The courts are just like throwing this trash out and suing, like counter suing him as well, counter penalizing the SEC.

• 1:07:35David Hoffman?

  I'm pretty sure the SEC lobbied the administration for an increase in budget and having to be forced to pay somebody else's attorney fees, $1.8 million is not really good evidence to support your case for that.

• 1:07:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, okay, the judge is saying the SEC's case was marred by false statements and misrepresentations, lying, they were lying, that's what that means.

• 1:07:58David Hoffman?

  Not great. I mean, I'm happy, I'm happy that the reign of Gary Gensler will hopefully be over with both parties being pro crypto now. I would have liked a little bit more justice, but I'm also happy just for him to be shown the door as soon as possible.

• 1:08:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't know if he's gone yet. I think we haven't heard the last, actually, so to be continued. We're feeling high on recent wins. And speaking of recent wins, David, today Gemini Earn users, this is as of yesterday, I believe, received 2.18 billion of their digital assets in kind. So Gemini was one of those earn programs that was locked. Like if you had your funds in Gemini Earn, you couldn't withdraw it, it like went down at the same time.

• 1:08:38David Hoffman?

  Because of the Genesis from DCG shenanigans with Grayscale and GPTC and all that stuff.

• 1:08:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, if you had funds in here, you know.

• 1:08:44David Hoffman?

  Three Eros Capital blew up, which blew up Genesis, which locked up Gemini Earn's customers.

• 1:08:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  2022, yeah. Okay, so what's happening here? What's the, what's the good news?

• 1:08:52David Hoffman?

  A 232% recovery of assets. And so users are being paid in kind. Unlike FTX, where users are being paid at the like, you're, you get your Bitcoin back at a $16,000 Bitcoin.

• 1:09:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  In fiat terms, as if you sold in November 2022?

• 1:09:10David Hoffman?

  Exactly, yeah, probably incurring a tax event. So if you had one Bitcoin in the Gemini Earn program, you will receive one Bitcoin. So congrats for holding.

• 1:09:21David Hoffman?

  Which is, which is great.

• 1:09:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guess, guess who had some Bitcoin? I had some crypto, at least, in Gemini.

• 1:09:27David Hoffman?

  What, which crypto assets?

• 1:09:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  This guy, it was Ether. I think, I don't think I had any Bitcoin. I may have had a sliver of Bitcoin, but it was, it was Ether.

• 1:09:36David Hoffman?

  Congrats for getting your Ether back.

• 1:09:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's cool, it was a forced hold.

• 1:09:40David Hoffman?

  I don't think you have a problem with holding your Ether.

• 1:09:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that's true, I don't. But, yeah, I mean, I think people should be excited about this outcome. They like, and I guess that the side benefit is Gemini forced them to hold through the entire bear market. And now they get it, they get it back in kind.

• 1:09:53David Hoffman?

  That's pretty cool. Still, continue to hold. Please continue to hold.

• 1:09:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, that, that is actually a question of, you know, like, how much of this? There's $960 million worth of Bitcoin and $600 million of ETH that get unlocked as a result of this. And so, you know, will, will retail users dump some of this? Maybe that's why we're down 1% on the week, David, in Ether terms.

• 1:10:16David Hoffman?

  Please hold.

• 1:10:18David Hoffman?

  All right, in privacy news, this is actually pretty interesting. Privacy Protocol Railgun has surpassed $1 billion in volume after the Tornado Cash crackdown. Railgun, I think this might be the first time we've ever mentioned Railgun. It's a private, it's a ZK privacy app. I think it's actually like a strict technological improvement to Tornado Cash. Have you ever used Railgun before, Ryan?

• 1:10:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  I have not. I, I think that's not illegal yet, right?

• 1:10:42David Hoffman?

  It's not illegal yet.

• 1:10:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  If I said I did, I won't go to jail.

• 1:10:45David Hoffman?

  Correct. I have, for now. I, I've used Railgun, and it's great. It's great, a great way to get to.

• 1:10:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  You are no longer a Tornado Cash user.

• 1:10:54David Hoffman?

  I'm no, well, I can't be. But I have used Railgun at times to put Ether from one wallet to a different wallet.

• 1:10:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  And it's legal. It's not on the OFAC sanction list.

• 1:11:02David Hoffman?

  Super legal, not on the OFAC sanction list. I'm sure it will be because, sorry. It sounds like North Korea has also discovered Railgun and it has seemed that the Lazarus Group has pushed some amount of money. I can't, we don't have it in my notes, but it seems like the Lazarus Group has actually discovered Railgun and they are now using Railgun. And so, yikes, yikes. Maybe, maybe I won't be using that anymore just as a preemptive.

• 1:11:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  The thing is though, the thing is, they're still using Tornado Cash because Tornado Cash is not shut down. You know what I mean?

• 1:11:34David Hoffman?

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:11:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, when you, when you make a privacy protocol on an unstoppable network illegal, then you just make it illegal for the good guys. Like, North Korea is not going to be like, "Oh, it's OFAC sanctioned. I guess we can't use it."

• 1:11:49David Hoffman?

  Why do they care about privacy in the first place, actually? Like, what are they gonna do? Like, oh, like, why do they need privacy?

• 1:11:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  I guess that so they can mix it and sell it and...

• 1:11:58David Hoffman?

  Yeah, they have to sell it. They have to...

• 1:11:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Identify their accounts. Like, how do we know it's North Korea? I mean, if, if privacy was working perfectly, then we wouldn't even know it's Lazarus Group or, or North Korea in the first place.

• 1:12:07David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Well, so like, they're still using Tornado Cash, but like, any amount of privacy, there's a bandwidth there of like the TVL and the protocol. So like Railgun and Tornado Cash have the same concept of us like a privacy set. And so they, there, there needs to be like innocent bystanders for like the, the nefarious actors to actually leverage as like a shield. And so if it's, if it's all North Korea in Tornado Cash, then it's actually not helpful.

• 1:12:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, well, there, there is something that's different about Railgun versus Tornado though, is Railgun uses privacy pools, like that concept of a, a separate pool.

• 1:12:41David Hoffman?

  Oh, do they?

• 1:12:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, which makes it harder for bad actors to join. So, I think there's some sort of segmentation. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but it's like a, it's an improvement on Tornado Cash, which kind of co-mingled everything. Does that make sense?

• 1:12:55David Hoffman?

  I see. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Cool.

• 1:12:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  So, there could be some hope here.

• 1:12:58David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  Uh, depends what OFAC and Treasury actually want to do. And one case to watch for all of this is a real man storms case, which motions are happening. A hearing is set for July 12th. So we'll be talking about that soon. There's one of the two tornado cash developers, the one being prosecuted in the US. This is a district court of Southern, uh, the Southern District of New York. So that's one to keep an eye on. I think it's going to be a, a pretty monumental court case in the US with respect to, do we get, um, privacy with our crypto peer-to-peer transactions or not? One PSA as we close this out. David, we launched, uh, Bankless launched a Warp Cast Frame. Did you know this for our claimables product? So, um, you can now go on, um, Farcaster or Warp Cast, the client, and check your claimables right here in a

• 1:13:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  frame. We talked to Dana Romero when Frames first came out, thought they were super cool technology and our dev team has just like put this together. So now you can go like this. You, uh, I'm, I'm doing this on screen. You can connect your wallet, click, uh, you know, check. And then for, for me, it found two claimables and you can view, view and claim. Actually, I did this last week. Okay. For the first time, for, for some reason, I had my alerts on the Bankless Claimables app off, so I wasn't receiving email alerts. So I went and I checked this and lo and behold, I had, uh, a claim worth, um, $1,800 in there.

• 1:14:16David Hoffman?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:14:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17David Hoffman?

  A token or an NFT?

• 1:14:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  It was a token.

• 1:14:19David Hoffman?

  It was a token?

• 1:14:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm not gonna say which one, because I sold it.

• 1:14:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  I sold it free. Yeah. Yeah. But it was sitting there waiting for me. And this is the thing, you can't be everywhere at once. You can't watch all of your wallets at the same time. So I have a whole bunch of my wallets in this claimable tool. And, uh, this automatically finds, um, claimables for you and throws it your way. So this is free. It's free. It's available for everybody, you know?

• 1:14:42David Hoffman?

  Go click the frame if you're on Warp Cast.

• 1:14:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Click the frame. David, what do we got? Close this out. Meme of the week?

• 1:14:47David Hoffman?

  Meme of the week. Meme of the week. This is, uh, kind of a dig at Solana. Uh, so this is the, uh, the guy looking at the butterfly saying, is this blank meme format? And it's Solana bros, looking at political and racist meme coins, blockchain, OnlyFans, and celebrities running pump and dubs, asking, is this mass adoption?

• 1:15:07David Hoffman?

  Is this what Mastodon looks like?

• 1:15:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, is this Austin? Is this a tweet from Austin from Solana saying Iggy is single-handedly starting a revolution? Is he being serious about that?

• 1:15:16David Hoffman?

  If you scroll down, he goes, "But most evidently, revolutions don't end well." So he's both promoting Iggy's shenanigans and also saying, "But also, I'm not endorsing it."

• 1:15:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, alright. That's fair enough. And we should end with the risks and disclaimers. Of course, celebrity coins are risky. Do not buy those things.

• 1:15:33David Hoffman?

  Don't put money in celebrity coins.

• 1:15:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Don't, just don't do it. It's an option. You don't have to do it.

• 1:15:37David Hoffman?

  You don't have to do it.

• 1:15:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Just don't do it. Also, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in.

• 1:15:41David Hoffman?

  For other reasons.

• 1:15:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're headed west. This is Frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bitcoin journey. Thanks a lot.