Pete Holmes Doesn’t Buy Your Excuses (PT. 1)

In this hilarious and surprisingly deep episode, Ryan sits down with comedian, actor, and podcaster Pete Holmes to talk about why so many of us are trapped in the cult of productivity. They discuss Mark Wahlberg’s 4 a.m. hustle routine, the myth of “selfless work,” why we confuse being busy with being good, and more. Pete Holmes is an American actor, comedian, writer, producer, and podcaster. He first gained recognition in the early 2010s as a stand-up comic, and also released his first comedy special and worked as a television writer and actor. He is the host of the podcast You Made It Weird, author of Comedy Sex God, and the creator of the HBO show Crashing. Follow Pete Holmes on Instagram, X, and YouTubeWatch Ryan's episode on You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9B-15fV1IListen to Pete interview Robert Greene - one of Ryan's favorite podcast episodes! 🎙️ Listen to Pete’s podcast You Made It Weird on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and YouTube 📚 Grab signed copies of Comedy Sex God by Pete Holmes at The Painted Porch | https://www.thepaintedporch.com/📖 Preorder the final book in Ryan Holiday's The Stoic Virtues Series: "Wisdom Takes Work": https://store.dailystoic.com/pages/wisdom-takes-work🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and Facebook 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives.

• 0:51Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I am recording in a slightly different place than normal, so it might sound a little different. I apologize. We're setting up a little office here in Austin. We've been having to drive in to take our kids to school and then drive back to the bookstore. It's just been a lot. So we're setting up a place in town that we can at least do some of our work and maybe alternate days. I've been running a lot on the Town Lake Trail. What does this have to do with today's episode? Well, I was actually on my way to pick up my kids from school and Samantha was in the car. We were driving in Austin one Friday afternoon and have the map on, we're listening to music, and then all of a sudden, the call comes in on the Apple CarPlay. I don't know

• 1:33Ryan Holiday?

  about you, but I like never answer my phone and 95% of the calls I get are not calls that I wanted to get, right? It's always spam, or it's the bank with this or that, or it's, you know, it's some little work thing. And the name flashed up was Pete Holmes, the comedian, one of my favorite people. I was surprised to get the call. We've known each other a long time. I think we maybe talked on the phone one time, though. We text and I see him every once in a while. But he was calling and I answer. I go, "Hey, Pete, what's up?" And he goes, "I'm so surprised you answered." He's like, "'Cause nobody answers their phone anymore." And I was like, "I'm surprised you called." Called. Nobody calls anymore. And I was like, but I'm so glad you did. And we chatted for a few minutes and Samantha was in the car and laughing the whole time.

• 2:18Ryan Holiday?

  He was working on a project. He wanted to ask my advice about like some of the sort of industry stuff in publishing, which was a lovely little conversation. I first did Pete Holmes's podcast, You Made It Weird, which is one of my favorite podcasts. He has some of my favorite interviews. He's just uniquely him. And by the way, if you want to listen to an amazing episode of Pete Holmes's podcast, listen to his interview with Robert Greene. I've known Robert Greene much longer than I've known Pete, but it is one of my favorite interviews of all time. And I got to know Robert better from it. It's one of my favorites. He's the best. I think I was first on Pete's podcast, maybe when Stillness is the Key was coming out, but he was on the show virtually back in July 2020.

• 3:00Ryan Holiday?

  And then he was in Austin for Comedy Festival and I said, hey, do you want to come out? And he did. And we had an amazing conversation. He talks about what philosophy and spirituality means to him, how he thinks about suffering and pain in his life. Of course, we talk the Stoics, Marx, Schrelius, and also just sort of like practically like how you identify with your work, how you say yes and no to things. It was lovely and I was so glad that he got to do this and I was glad that he called and I do hope he calls again. I take lots of walks like when I'm at my house, but because I'm out in the country, I don't really get any service.

• 3:39Ryan Holiday?

  That would be an awesome time for me to call people and I think about that. Like if I lived in the city, I would do that more often. But it's lovely, you know, when you get to talk to someone that you don't get to talk to often enough. And he's one of my favorite people. This was one of my favorite interviews. I think you are really going to like it. If you have no idea who Pete Holmes is, you should watch his show on HBO, which I think had three seasons. His most recent stand-up comedy special was fantastic. He has a great book called Comedy Sex God. Not comedy sex god, but comedy sex god. We'll play on words there. And his podcast, You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes, is one that I download all the time. When I am going to be traveling, because I know they're long interviews. I know I can get lost in them.

• 4:24Ryan Holiday?

  And he helps me pass the time. He is one of the great stand ups of our time, which is actually something we talk about in today's episode. And you can follow him on Instagram and on Twitter at Pete Holmes, or just listen to this podcast.

• 4:43Ryan Holiday?

  Do you have to do like a ton of sets?

• 4:44Speaker 01

  No, I don't have to do any sets.

• 4:49Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's like a festival, right?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I know what you're saying.

• 4:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I took that moment to assert my independence.

• 4:56Ryan Holiday?

  I don't have to do anything.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  I don't have to do shit, dude. It's almost like that question was a reminder to myself. I don't have to. You know what I mean?

• 5:03Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Because all I'm running into comedians and everyone says, are you so tired? Because they're all doing a million things.

• 5:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  It's like, I just want to be like, you don't have, you don't have to. That's what I want. In fact, are we recording?

• 5:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  That's my message to everybody. You don't have to do anything.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Obviously, that's not ultimately true. But I look at a lot of people doing a lot of things and my message would just be like, maybe just stop.

• 5:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think it's not just that we do a bunch of stuff that we don't have to do. It's that we do a bunch of stuff we don't have to do. And then we say we're selflessly doing it for like other people. Like I do it all for my family. And it's like.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I can't believe you said that.

• 5:48Ryan Holiday?

  That's not why you do it at all.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Last night I did, I have this new joke. I can't believe you said that. I have this joke. I'm sorry to interrupt.

• 5:55Ryan Holiday?

  No, no.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  But I was, it's a completely true story. I was watching, there's this terrible Mark Wahlberg HBO Max show, and that's not a recommendation. I don't know why I watched it. But I actually do know why I watched it. I admire how productive he is and, you know, he's.

• 6:13Ryan Holiday?

  He's actually very funny in some things.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  I believe it. Yeah, the other guys? This isn't an anti Wahlberg joke.

• 6:20Ryan Holiday?

  You're way too tall for this table. I'm very sorry.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  No, not at all. People weren't my size when this table was made.

• 6:25Ryan Holiday?

  Well, this is, this was Joan Didion's.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 6:27Ryan Holiday?

  And she's a very tiny little lady. And we don't have a lot of.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Giants.

• 6:31Ryan Holiday?

  Giants.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  We had to put risers on it and you're still. Yeah, no, that I'm bigger than a Didion. If we've learned anything. So anyway, in the documentary series, docu-series, Mark Wahlberg says his son is sort of joylessly going through this like, like a filing clerk. Mark gave him every baseball card. Yeah. Like he just bought him the entire series of cards and the son is very like judiciously going through, looking for the good ones, but not, look, I can't help but be, I am being judgmental. I think that sucks. I think that sucks. This sucks. You've made it a job. You've made it a job. Yeah. Look for the. Yeah. Anyway, and do I spoil my daughter? Absolutely. So I can't, but anyway. Doing it for your family.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  He says, everything I do, I do for my family. Yeah. And then it cuts to him like in Singapore on a motorcycle with a samurai sword through his leather jacket. And I'm like, no, you don't. You live in a $40 million house. You already did. Immediately. You already did it. Dude, I swear when I start talking, because these are mythic figures. Mark Wahlberg is like a Paul Bunyan. Yeah. I get up, I get up before I am and I deadlift a horse, you know, like it's, he's, he's America. Yeah. So it's hard to go against him. And then I say like, you have $500 million. I go, you don't do it for your family. Yeah. Don't put the burden on them. Yeah. And I'm dead serious. Yeah. My father used to say that. The dad in Succession says that, like, it's like a thing.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  I know that one of those is real, but I just mean like, the reason they wrote that into succession is because our dads were saying that. And that's not to say that you shouldn't do it. Just don't fucking lie. Don't lie. Yeah. Well, that's the next part. Yes. No, this joke is 100% Ryan Holiday approved. I go, just be honest. Say, I like doing movies. It makes me feel like a big shot. I like being good at something. I like do, I like being somewhere where everyone's excited to see me. I think it's important. It makes a difference. I feel called. I'm talented. It's a gift.

• 8:32Ryan Holiday?

  You know Stephen A. Smith?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 8:34Ryan Holiday?

  He's hilarious. He's the sports broadcaster who's like on TV all the time.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:37Ryan Holiday?

  Does like 12 hours of TV every day.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:39Ryan Holiday?

  And I was asking him something. I was like, me, I forget even what it was, but he was like, you know what? He's like, for me, I don't see my, my daughters as much as I'd like to, but the good thing is they always know where they could. He's like, part of the reason I do all this TV and maybe I'm, I could look at the tape and maybe I'm unfairly judging it. But it was something like, I'm on TV, so my daughters always know where I am. And it's like, they want you to be three doors down the hall.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:04Ryan Holiday?

  Like, what are you? And it's just one of those horseshit things that people say, especially when you're powerful and important and people cheer you for it.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:12Ryan Holiday?

  Instead of going, that is very sad.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:15Ryan Holiday?

  And I probably said, oh, I probably just politely moved on because it was.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:19Ryan Holiday?

  I don't.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  My daughters are.

• 9:20Ryan Holiday?

  Not here to confront you, but like.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:22Ryan Holiday?

  That's dumb. What you're saying is dumb.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  It is dumb. It's, it's more than dumb. You know, I am affected by it as well. It's a cultural hypnosis.

• 9:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  It's a type, it's like this person, my father, everybody, anyone that says that is a victim in a certain sense.

• 9:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Because they didn't make that up. They're modeling it. It's what was sold to them and they're reselling it. I'd just like to be part of the generation that goes, no. And the, and the last part of that joke is, cause I really, I reverse engineered it because I wanted to have this line as I say, so I'm on stage. The context matters. And I go, I am not doing this for my family. I go, this is for me. I left my family and I said, you go and do likewise. Find something that excites you, that makes life worth living, that you will leave your loved ones for. And it gets applause.

• 10:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Because we know this. I'm not like flicking the lights on on some dark secret. We know, but like, I think you and I are both interested in those like hypnosis is the word. It's like, what are we saying?

• 10:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  What do we? Yeah, that's absolute delusion that we're saying. And kids are good at pointing that out. My daughter would be very happy if I, I mean, she doesn't mind that I, I leave. I might be deluding myself, but she rolls with it and she's a champ and I try very hard not, in fact, I successfully don't tour very much.

• 10:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  And so when Dad leaves, all she hears is I'm getting a present and we're back to spoiling.

• 10:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, it's like, on the one hand, it's a very privileged thing to find the thing you will neglect your family for.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  No, that joke is soaked in privilege.

• 10:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's great. It's a gift to be like, I have these people who I love more than anything. I also have this other thing that's close, you know, or very exciting and rewarding and all that. So it's very lucky. But yeah, I think one of the things I'm noticing is like, not only do you go, I'm doing it for them. That's not true. You're doing it for you, or you're doing it for the money or whatever.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:18Ryan Holiday?

  Or you're doing it, honestly, a lot of times you're doing it for other people. Like, like if you think what you do is of service, you're doing it for other people.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:24Ryan Holiday?

  But I'm noticing just how hard it is. Not that I'm gone, because they get along without me pretty well. It's that it's the coming in and out is disruptive and causes stress and strain. So I'm not only not doing it for you, you would prefer that I not do it.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 11:41Ryan Holiday?

  And I, and, and so.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Effectively against you.

• 11:45Ryan Holiday?

  Like me going, oh, and then when I die, you get the money. They're not like, oh, great trade, you know? Or like, oh, this is why we drive a, a this model car instead of this model car. It's all worth it. So, so the reason you have to be honest about it is so that you can be honest about the day to day trade offs with them and not pretend like you're doing them a favor.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:06Ryan Holiday?

  Like, my wife points this out all the time, like, you're in a nice hotel room.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:10Ryan Holiday?

  I'm doing double school pickup.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:14Ryan Holiday?

  And, and again, it's not to make me feel guilty or say that I shouldn't do it.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  No, you just have to own it.

• 12:17Ryan Holiday?

  But it's, I don't get to throw myself a parade on top of getting to do the thing that I love to do.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Well, that was part of the joke. It kind of got cut. I've only, I've done the joke three times. And one of the times I was like, I'm not doing this for my family. Like, oh, poor Pete's got to go sling dick jokes like I work in a coal mine.

• 12:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And that's with respect to people who work in coal mines. Like, it's cosplaying. A lot of people do do things for their family. The insult is when the dad from Succession, who I know is fictional, or Mark Wahlberg, or if I said I'm doing this for my family, again, and I like what you said, I have to be honest. Honest with Val as well is it's both. We need to be subtle. I need her to say, I think a key to, I think I have a very healthy and if you want to call it successful love romantic relationship. And one of the keys to that is to be very honest about your needs, your feelings and your needs.

• 13:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  And both of those are very embarrassing.

• 13:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  But with Valerie, I feel safe. She's a really safe person to go. She always says, thank you for working hard for the family.

• 13:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  And she also knows, I went to bed at 11 last night and I slept till 10:30 this morning. And she was up with the baby.

• 13:33Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  With the baby. She's six, but you know what I mean? Like Lila has been having, who cares, allergies. She gets up in the night. Like you're, we're both just rocked.

• 13:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  You know what it is? You have two all the time. So it's both. But I'm also like, look, I was just gonna go off how it is kinda hard what I do. Like my pain body, to use an Eckhart Tolle term, wants to go, yes, and public speaking is the number one fear. And if anyone had to do what I had to do tonight, you wouldn't be chilly doing a podcast. You'd be in your hotel room sharpening steaks for vampires. Like you'd be terrified. Sure. Okay. But I also believe that I'm being paid for all the shows I did for free for 20 years. You know what I mean? It's all of those.

• 14:14Ryan Holiday?

  It's, it's very hard and it's stressful and it's all these things. But my wife points out, and she's right, like it's also my dream and it's not hers and it's not theirs.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Ryan Holiday?

  You know, like, like you're getting to do the thing that you.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 14:27Ryan Holiday?

  Like her dream.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Don't burden them with it.

• 14:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I wish I, I wish I could stay, but I have to do Transformers nine.

• 14:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  No, you don't. You want to.

• 14:36Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  You want to.

• 14:37Ryan Holiday?

  Your spouse's dream was not for you to be a standup comic, right? Like they had their own. And so, so it's just about acknowledging that when you're part of a team, everyone is giving up. Just as I'm giving up, we're all making trade offs.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:52Ryan Holiday?

  So you don't get to act like you're not getting something in exchange for what you're giving up and the work you're doing and all that.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57Ryan Holiday?

  But I want to talk to you about another joke.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Tell me. Oh, okay. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to my, I did sort of my podcast.

• 15:03Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, this is, this is great. I love it.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  But I thought you would like that.

• 15:06Ryan Holiday?

  I totally.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  And you said a phrase from a joke. I'm currently workshopping.

• 15:09Ryan Holiday?

  Well, even to go to, even go to that, I had this friend, he said once, because people go, oh, I gotta buy a house, then I gotta invest my money, you gotta put my money to work. And he was like, no, you don't. He was like, your money doesn't have to grow. You don't have to put pressure on yourself. Again, this is privileged, but not that privileged. His point is just like, people feel pressure to always make like, like that the end of life is to have a large pile.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:30Ryan Holiday?

  And that if you don't do that, you're somehow not optimizing or making the most of what you had here.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  It's the corporate delusion. It's like, if we're not growing, we're dying. Yeah.

• 15:38Ryan Holiday?

  You can see why that view is very good for the mortgage industry. If you want to buy a house, you should buy a house, but don't buy a house because you feel like it's the responsible thing to do. And if you don't buy a house, you're being irresponsible.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:50Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, these decisions should incorporate a variety of factors.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:54Ryan Holiday?

  You don't have to get promoted to the highest position. You don't have to be, you don't have to do any of it. And I think that's just a good phrase. Like,

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:01Ryan Holiday?

  you are choosing to do it and it might be good to do, but you don't have to. So stop acting like you have a gun to your head and you're a saint.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. I see this with my daughter with Duolingo. She's very, uh, I don't even want to say she's learning Spanish. We're doing Duolingo.

• 16:16Ryan Holiday?

  But you're playing a Spanish related game.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. She loves the screen time. Let me tell you. But, um, she loves her streak.

• 16:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  She has like a, I think her streak is 87 days. So we're proud of that. And then the way, I hate what I'm about to say, but the way I get her to do it is I say, we don't want to break the streak, but I've tried to stop saying that. I'm, in fact, I've corrected myself and been like, no, learning Spanish. I've tried everything. I'm like, sweetheart, it's like, I speak Spanish a little bit. So it's like a secret language.

• 16:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  That you and I will have, or we went to Mexico with her. It's like, isn't this fun? Like they're speaking Spanish. Like she got bit by an ant and I had to speak Spanish. I was waiting for her to go like, oh, it's really just the streak.

• 16:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And I'm like, that's, so many of us are living for the streak.

• 17:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Or the score, or the bank account, or whatever it is.

• 17:04Ryan Holiday?

  That's probably better than not, like than the people who don't, they're like, why does the streak matter?

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:09Ryan Holiday?

  You know what I mean? But it's more because you think it matters, you have to be able to hold this countervailing notion in your head at the same time, which is like, it is made up.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:18Ryan Holiday?

  Like the obligations are made up.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  We need both of those energies. We need both of those energies.

• 17:35Ryan Holiday?

  All right. So you have a joke about the president moving into the White House. And does he, what happened?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Where did you hear this joke?

• 17:43Ryan Holiday?

  On your podcast.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 17:45Ryan Holiday?

  Your two episodes of Gareth are incredible. But you had a joke about-

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Oh, he gave me a great line in that. Yeah, go ahead.

• 17:50Ryan Holiday?

  So your joke is about what happens to the president's used mattress?

• 17:55Speaker 01

  What happens to the mattress?

• 17:55Ryan Holiday?

  Does each president get a new mattress?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:58Ryan Holiday?

  Okay, so several years ago, I gave a talk to what's called the White House Communications Agency. People don't understand, the White House is a military installation. It is run by a joint installation of all the branches of the government, all of the military. So like the Army, Navy, whatever. So like, the cooks are Navy cooks.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 18:15Ryan Holiday?

  Because where the president is, is the United States. And so the White House is a place, but also wherever the president is, is the White House, right? Because he has to have all his- So there's the president as a phone person, and they have a car person, and they have a-

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Can I interject with a tiny theory? He's, they're our dad.

• 18:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  And the Secret Service is his dad. Like, he protects us, but then he also has these parents that would like dive for him and dive in front of bullets. There's something really, I think that's one of the reasons why we, we struggle with electing a female is like, but it's dad.

• 18:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  And the vice president, even though it's a man-

• 18:50Ryan Holiday?

  Who's the dad's wife who's taking care of all the stuff? Just like for many years, like the, the first lady was like responsible for all the entertaining. Like, someone has to be responsible.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Like Jackie O, yeah, for example.

• 19:00Ryan Holiday?

  But, but so the, and yeah, this is all male because they've only been male presidents, but-

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I love this. Are you gonna tell me something about the mattress?

• 19:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. So, so, but like, somebody's, somebody's responsible for the podium. Someone's responsible for the nuclear football. Obviously, the Secret Service does a lot of this, but the, just the whole operation around the president is run by what's called the White House Communications Agency.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 19:21Ryan Holiday?

  And I talked there in 2017 or 18 or whatever. So I know the person who was formerly the head of the White House Communications-

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 19:31Ryan Holiday?

  So I said, hey, I heard this joke on this podcast. I gotta know what happens to the president's mattress afterwards? He was like, I was there when Trump was elected the first time. And I watched them tear literally everything out of the presidential bedroom. Carpets, drapes, it all gets replaced.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  The carpet?

• 19:54Ryan Holiday?

  Just a fresh, you know.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  A whole new room.

• 19:57Ryan Holiday?

  Have you heard the expression that, uh, that the queen of England thinks the world smells like fresh paint?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  That's hilarious.

• 20:03Ryan Holiday?

  Because everything has to, so you're walking in, this is just the life of someone that powerful, everything is nice and fresh for you all the time.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  There's an Indian expression too, if you wear leather sandals, the world does covered in leather.

• 20:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's a Louis C K bit where he goes, lions think people are the things that are going, ah, it's like very funny, very, very funny.

• 20:22Ryan Holiday?

  So he was, he was like, there's a joke, he said something like, the president gets the cabinet they want or something. And he's like, my understanding is the president, if they want a Tempur-Pedic mattress, they get a Tempur-Pedic mattress. So it's probably just a-

• 20:33Speaker 01

  But it only has four, that carpet only has four years.

• 20:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  It's a huge waste of carpet. Carpet I feel less about, but a mattress is so, like, picture a dumpster, not a dumpster, a, uh, what am I trying to say? A dump.

• 20:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  I guess it was in the word. There's mattresses and tires.

• 20:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Those are the two things that were like, how do we get rid of these fucking things? Four years, new mattress.

• 21:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And that could be, I mean, he could be like, it's a little lumpy. I want a new one. Like, I'm sure there's an unlimited budget for mattresses.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's off the charts. So Jimmy Carter, who is known for being so responsible and meek, still got a mattress that only, he only had it for, was it eight years?

• 21:15Ryan Holiday?

  I, I would imagine so. And yeah, it's interesting to think like, they're not moving into an empty house. Like it comes, it's a furnished.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  A furnished house.

• 21:23Ryan Holiday?

  It's a furnished, so I'm sure at some point during the transition, somebody comes in and says, okay, I need 15 minutes of your time, uh, Mr. President-elect.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:32Ryan Holiday?

  What kind of mattress do you like? What's your breakfast?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Somebody asks them.

• 21:36Ryan Holiday?

  I guarantee that's what happens.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  What kind of shower head do you like?

• 21:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I don't think Trump was using Biden's shower head. I, I think everything's gotta go.

• 21:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Which then brings up, it's like, you call it Lincoln's bedroom. Dude, that hasn't been Lincoln's bedroom for a long time.

• 21:50Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I'm, I'm ready to blow your mind, cause in my office, I have, you know, like a door jamb, like the, the, the crown molding that goes over a door.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:58Ryan Holiday?

  I have a chunk of that from the White House. Because when Truman was president, he took the White House down to the studs. The White House was at in, you know, 1945 or whatever was a shitty 100 year old house.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:15Ryan Holiday?

  A hundred and what when did it? I guess it burned down in 1812, but like it's a shitty house, right? Like, and the United States is now the predominant power in the world. This is the command center of the world.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  We gotta make it look good.

• 22:27Ryan Holiday?

  Well, also, it's just, it's not secure or safe or strong.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  I've thought about that too. I know the windows are bulletproof, but I'm like, there's so many windows.

• 22:34Ryan Holiday?

  So you can see a picture, you could see, he basically they take it down to the studs. It replaces it with steel girders, a car, Truman spends most of his presidency living at Blair House, which is like across the street.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 22:45Ryan Holiday?

  While they rebuilt it. And so the.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  You had to be like, I'm the president and I can't even live in the White House.

• 22:52Ryan Holiday?

  The builders stole like little things and then they've slowly appeared or, or it was went to go to the dump and someone was like, hey, I'm actually going to protect that. And so different pieces of it come up for auction.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:05Ryan Holiday?

  So I have it. I have a chunk in my office.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  That's incredible.

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  It also begs the, the boat analogy is when you replace.

• 23:13Ryan Holiday?

  The ship of Thessius?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Is it still the White House?

• 23:16Ryan Holiday?

  Well, so my.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  That's another delusion, by the way.

• 23:19Ryan Holiday?

  What?

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Any permanent kind of idea. It's like, that's fake. It's absolutely fake.

• 23:23Ryan Holiday?

  Although there's another interesting way. So the Senate is staggered, right? So not everyone's up for reelection every year, right? So theoretically, the Senate is still the same body that's been there since George Washington was president, because there's always been overlapping.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 23:40Ryan Holiday?

  Members from previous.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  And that models us, like as long as I have a memory of yesterday.

• 23:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  The continuity of me, it's like the string in the, in the pearl necklace. It's like the Senate is the same string.

• 23:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  We love that. It seems powerful.

• 23:58Ryan Holiday?

  Well, the ship of Thessius thing is fascinating. My youngest is like obsessed with boats and ships. So I got him like a piece of old Ironsides, like, which is, we have a, the US Navy has a, the oldest active ship in the US Navy is old Ironsides, which is from. Like the War of 1812 or whatever. But obviously it's not the same ship because they've had to repair it. So like it's this. I mean, it still floats. It still works. How much of it is original? I mean, good chunk of it is not because I have a small piece of it, right? And so, yeah, is it the same White House that Lincoln lived in? Is it the same White House that who Madison lived in was Washington? Is it the same one because it burned down in 1812? What makes it the same?

• 24:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or Chicago. There's, there's this musician, I reference him all the time. I wish I knew who it was. But he was on LSD and he kept, he was in a hotel room in Chicago. And he kept touching things and going, is Chicago?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  Is not Chicago? And if you've ever done a psychedelic, that is a great bit.

• 24:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  To do on a psychedelic is to be like Texas.

• 24:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Not Texas. Like separation is the funniest thing. And watching our kids grow up too. My daughter's about to be seven. So cellularly she'll have been complete. She's probably been replaced multiple, multiple times because as a child it's happening at such a rapid rate. I've heard people be like, oh, your kids are constantly like dying. Like that version is gone, that version is gone. I find comfort in something more extreme, which is like what you call my daughter never, it's not there.

• 25:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  In the same way that this isn't there. It's just whatever.

• 25:28Ryan Holiday?

  When, how long do you have to be in Texas to be Texas? You know, what is, is there some magical point?

• 25:34Speaker 01

  And how many times do I have to tell Lila her name is Lila?

• 25:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  And then she goes, I'm Lila. Like it's all, everything I do is for my family.

• 25:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  It's all thought. It's, it's the Senate.

• 25:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  If we can string together some continuity of beliefs, then it's real.

• 25:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  And of course, I know this is very lava lamp, like college. But I find all the most interesting things. It's a shame that they're only interesting when you're like on drugs. And I'm trying, that's not, obviously that's not true with you and I, and I'm assuming the listeners of this podcast. But most people, you're just like, what you call you is a cluster of sensations and thoughts that appear in a spacious, eternal, timeless, spaceless, boundless field that you go, is me?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Is not me, but the feeling of my knuckles on this table and the feeling of me squeezing my belly occur in the same field and we love that. That's, that's the Senate.

• 26:30Ryan Holiday?

  I think the problem for people is people think philosophy is like this way of, is this riddle that like tricks you into thinking you don't exist, right? There is no self. How do you know you exist? Blah, blah, blah. And what am I supposed to do with this information?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:43Ryan Holiday?

  Right? But philosophy is actually more like your words hurt me. And then a stoic goes, how though? Like, show me how. Like,

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What Rupert Spira would say is, on whose behalf are you protesting?

• 26:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Like, show me that.

• 26:57Ryan Holiday?

  Obviously, it can be intellectually interesting to sort of take this all the way down to like, how do we know we're not living in a simulation? But for most of us, it should just be more like, yeah, why am I taking offense to this? Or like, why, why am I said I have to do this? Like, my therapist sometimes corrects me and she goes, no, no, what you make up about this is, not this is.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:18Ryan Holiday?

  Or you're just realizing like, oh, no, no, the thing just is something. And then I have an opinion about that thing. And, and most of the time, a lot of the time, that opinion is making me feel shitty or insecure.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  It's almost always making you feel that.

• 27:33Ryan Holiday?

  Right. And so it's like, if philosophy is about helping you with that, and then maybe there's some professional mystics who can take it all the way to the, actually, nothing is permanent, nothing's ever lasted. How do we, you know, start with the mental tricks to help you just live better.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:49Ryan Holiday?

  You're not going to just suddenly be questioning the purpose of everything and everyone.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Right. I actually think going to the closed door, saying like, we all live in a simulation, or there is no self, or everything is a dream, or whatever.

• 28:05Ryan Holiday?

  Is there really such a thing as right and wrong?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. That's just going, that's just kind of like a, an amusement ride.

• 28:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  And I think, if I'm going to use a spiritual term here, but the ego, the separate self uses that to just seem important. It's the same thing as wearing a Raiders jersey and being like, I'm like these guys.

• 28:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Their strength is my strength. And when I go, this is a simulation, you're just kind of bolstering the fake thing.

• 28:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  By going like, you didn't fool me. The purpose of what you would call philosophy, what I would call mysticism, who cares?

• 28:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Is actually to go through that door and to realize that what you seek is only veiled by the seeking of it. So when we're looking for peace and happiness, this is all Rupert Spira, by the way, which one of these has to be him. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. The nature of your being, the nature of awareness, is peace. It's the lack of agitation. It's the lack of yearning. It's the lack of seeking. It's the lack of resisting. And then the mind gets activated and we start seeking, oh, I hope this podcast goes well. That's fine. That's dance. That's play. But it does kind of rob me of my nature. So receding back, philosophy for the sake of knowing what's going on and then flexing that for people is stupid.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  When realizing anything that points you to the nature of the self, the only self there is, being, peace, patience, kindness, happiness, joy, that's valuable. I know it's stupid to now step back into our mind and be like, that's valuable. But I did that this morning. I was having a crummy morning. Crummy. And I, you know, I start my day reading Rupert and it reminded me that it was like, it's my seeking for a good day that's keeping me from... It's the analogy that he uses, it's like consciousness or awareness is the screen and this is the movie. And there's no peace for the characters in the movie. They'll eat sandwiches and feel happy sometimes. They'll get hit by a car and be sad other times.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  But it's completely in flux all the time. What isn't in flux? The screen. Let's find the screen. Go to the experience of being aware and don't say, I don't know how to find my being. You're having that experience right now. It's not esoterica. It's go to it. I promise you know how to. That's going to the screen. That's step one. Step two is what is the nature of the screen?

• 30:33Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  And the nature of the screen, just like a screen is spacious. To me, successful spirituality is how spacious are you? Not how good are you at winning a debate or whatever.

• 30:45Ryan Holiday?

  Spacious, you just mean like chill? What do you mean by

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Allowing?

• 30:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  The nature of the screen, you could say the nature of God, is this yes, it's this, it's almost offensive how yes it is.

• 30:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  And when we realize that we are that yes, I'll give you an example. I took an Uber here and the guy was listening to Christian rock, which happens a lot in Texas.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  And I'm only a little embarrassed to admit that it's, it can be a little triggering to me.

• 31:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Because I grew up in that world and whatever. Those were good meaning people, but it didn't do me a lot of favors. It kind of confused me and scared me. So when I hear that music, I used to sing that music. I used to lead the worship team. I'm listening to it and I'm like, and I'm like, no, like, let's just try to like, be with what it actually is. And this is the other thing that came to mind. I'm reading nonviolent communication. I actually guess I could say I've read it. There's a little bit left. And he tells a story that really changed, I have other examples of it, but it was a good one. He tells two stories of getting hit in the nose. Maybe you heard me say this on my podcast. He got elbowed in the nose twice in the same week. Same force, same blood, same everything. One time it

• 31:58Speaker 01

  hurt like the dickens, the other time it didn't hurt. Same exact

• 32:02Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  fracture. And he was like, the first time, he was breaking up for a fight both times. The first time, the kid he was pulling off the other kid, he hated this kid.

• 32:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  This kid was a shit, a bad student, just a smart ass, and had rubbed this guy the wrong way. He hit him in the nose and it really hurt.

• 32:18Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  The second time, it was this sweet kid that he actually had a lot of love and compassion for, because he saw that he was kind of picked on and his heart was open to him. Got elbowed by this kid. That's how fast the brain will build a story.

• 32:32Ryan Holiday?

  Right. The interpretation of this person did it because they're bad and this person did it as an accident. And, and that's what I mean. It's like, do you want to, do you want to use this powerful tool to interpret everything down to a kind of nothingness or nihilism? Or do you just want to do it so you're not taking shit so personally anymore? I'm just saying, most people. Just take the most effective 80% of the thing.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:54Ryan Holiday?

  And leave the 20% to the people who are really into it.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:57Ryan Holiday?

  Don't let the, the, the sort of mystic woo woo part of it confuse you or deter you from the fact that the bulk of this is very practical and very helpful.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I understand.

• 33:07Ryan Holiday?

  In the course of your normal life where you have a job and kids and you're not a, a monk at a silent meditation retreat.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  I would say that last 20% is bolstering yourself to the point where you can convince other people of it.

• 33:19Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  And win debates and, and then, how silly is that? And I'm guilty of this all the time. You've bolstered up something that you just spent all that time convincing yourself doesn't exist.

• 33:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And Eckhart Tolle talks about that. It's like monks bowing to each other on meditation retreats. That is, that's a little candy.

• 33:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  You're especially, I bow to you. But also, to your point, let's not get gunked up too much. There's this, I think it's Rumi. He's like, it's gonna be a terrible paraphrase, but he's like, you're in the orchard.

• 33:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Stop asking who planted the orchard and just eat some apples. That's a terrible paraphrase.

• 33:54Ryan Holiday?

  No, in meditation, Mark Serrano talks about, he says, you don't have to delve into everything that lies beneath. You can just kinda, and I think there's something, Nietzsche was not always a big fan of the Stoics, but he said, sometimes the Stoics were why, were superficial out of profundity. And that there's something about just kind of staying on the surface that's like, hey, I got hit in the nose.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:16Ryan Holiday?

  You know, or, hey, I like this apple. I don't need to know why it came here.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Who planted it, yeah.

• 34:21Ryan Holiday?

  Who planted it? Or just like, hey, um, the stock market went down today. Not, the stock market went down and now my portfolio is fucked and now I have to work longer. And then, by the way, why did this happen? It happened because of this policy.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:34Ryan Holiday?

  And it's these idiots who voted for this. It's just like, it's just news. Accept it as information and move on. And if you heard that it happened to someone else, you'd be like, it is what it is. But what happens to you, you just need so much more in the way of explanation and then you need to ruminate on it and you're not really doing yourself any favors.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  That's an epiphany anew, at least once a month where I go, oh, my God, when it's me, it seems to be so meaningful. Like, when you're having an issue, I'm like, Ryan, you're just the screen. Like, when it's happening to me, I'm like, this is urgent. That's why, like, I'm with you, everything we've said. What my teacher Rupert Spira teaches is called the pathless path, meaning it's not even a path, meaning it's not even something we need to explain. It's when, whenever, anytime, good times, bad times, just kind of quietly keep a tether in the fact that you are the screen, not to have some sort of afterlife reward

• 35:45Speaker 01

  or the thrill of being smarter than everybody, or like me, listening to the Christian music and being like, I find this theologically unsound.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Good for you, Pete.

• 35:56Ryan Holiday?

  I wonder if part of it is, you're just like, you're a little embarrassed that you used to be this person. And since you're not that person, there's a little bit of sort of projected shame of like, you're seeing yourself in that and you didn't like that in yourself. So you can't just, you can't allow this person to earnestly be dumb about something.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Well, I went through all of this. I was like, not even in like, there's a way to be pious in this way. I'm like, I don't know this guy's experience. He might be, and without a doubt, I'm being real, classic Christian praise music has, when I say converted, I don't mean into Christianity. I mean fundamentally changed the way people view the world and how they interact with it. And we would call that enlightenment in some circles. Like, you recognized through those sets of symbols. Just to me, I remember singing those songs and just wanting so badly to believe them, like, and kind of feeling that my, this is just for me, the theater of it. And I was like, And the winning of it, it's so winning.

• 36:59Ryan Holiday?

  No, I remember, no, like you get taken to your friend's church and they're like, it's got really good music and then you're listening and you're like, I guess, and am I, is this supposed to be doing something for me that it's not doing?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  It's not, yeah.

• 37:10Ryan Holiday?

  I saw this meme once, this girl was talking about how she grew up going to church, listening to music, she was very moved by it. And, and then she went to a concert at like 20 and then she realized like, oh, it's music that I like.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:26Ryan Holiday?

  And, and so I think you can kind of, depending on your awareness of things, you can kind of go, oh, I used to be someone that that worked on.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:33Ryan Holiday?

  And then when it doesn't work on you, there's a little cognitive dissonance of like, you're like suspicious or cynical about it because now you're someone who feels like it doesn't work on you. And then it existing, you're like, I don't know, I sometimes listen, I go, what?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:49Ryan Holiday?

  This wasn't obvious to me before.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  I also, there might even be another thing going on, which is a little bit of a morning. I felt that way walking around Austin and I was like, just this morning during my crummy morning. And I was like, oh my God, like I don't drink anymore. And I'll tell you this, when you stop drinking, Austin makes less sense.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  I was just walking going like, it had, for me, when I had my rocking times in Austin, it was so much about alcohol and like getting that kind of loose that you want to go to a piano bar and you want to eat pizza, chicken fingers, or whatever it is. And I'm like, now I love the morning, like my favorite thing about Austin, I got up at 10:30 still. If you get up at 10:30, you're like an old man feeding the pigeons, nobody's there. And I went to a coffee shop and I was, there was no line. I was like, this is incredible because everybody's fucking hungover. And I had this like, Pang, remember in Mad Men where he goes nostalgia is a wound?

• 38:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  That's where I think most people learned that from Don Draper. But I was like, it felt melancholy to me. I was like, I don't miss drinking and, you know, partying and that sounds like cocaine. I just mean staying up and mingling. There was a time for it, but you can't help but go like, oh, my God, I'm, I'm 46. I'm a dad. Like, it's all going. And then, again, this isn't very much philosophy. I went, but is the sense of awareness or being, whatever word you like, is it a different awareness that's aware of 46 year old Pete that was aware of 26 year old Pete that used to tear it up?

• 39:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Or is it the same?

• 39:35Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Is the screen different? It's all, it all happened real fast.

• 39:43Ryan Holiday?

  I was downtown.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  The mind interprets it day by day by day, but the screen, it just, it's like the book is already close. Rupert has a great, I want to hear your downtown thing. He's like, all of time is already written. It's in a book and the mind perceives it as page by page. But there's a comfort in going like, yeah. I've told you this before. You said, I think about it all the time, that I should write a book called Yes, Thank You. You just go, yes, thank you. Now I'm the 46 year old guy feeling a little bit sad that I used to like.

• 40:11Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Eat pizzas.

• 40:12Ryan Holiday?

  You should be grateful that you got to do it as opposed to missing that you're not currently doing it.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Ryan Holiday?

  And that you don't know what's next.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:19Ryan Holiday?

  And you could, by, by sort of pining for what was, what you're doing is rejecting what is right now.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Ryan Holiday?

  As like, there's going to be a time when you're 80 and you're lucky to live that.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  About 46 year old me.

• 40:31Ryan Holiday?

  And you're like struggling, you're like, I wish I could just get up and go for a nice walk outside. And it, like, I have some much older friends who are, and that you're just like, oh, you can't like, just get on a plane and go to another city. That is like a thing you have to think about now.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:45Ryan Holiday?

  And so that, that version of Pete will be like, remember I was just, I got up at like 10, I was walking around Austin.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:51Ryan Holiday?

  And you weren't there for it.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Yes. I'll even do one more extreme and say. Yes, thank you to the nostalgia, to the pain. To like that, that to me is like enlightenment or self-realization or conversion or whatever. It can't just be a good feeling because good feelings appear and they disappear. So it can't be essential to you. Again, I'm paraphrasing Rupert. So anything that's appearing and disappearing isn't what we're talking about when we're talking about the self. The screen is there when the movie is a bummer. The screen is there when the movie is absent. Like waiting for a consistent and constant state of euphoria is like saying, again, this is Rupert.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  When the movie shows me an orgy where everyone's eating pizza, then I'll be, then I'll see the screen.

• 41:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Who cares? Pete's resisting the day. Can I allow that? Like really extreme fierce, yes, thank you-ness and be like, it's, it's even further than saying, when I'm 80, I'll miss this time. It's like, no, I'm actually going to say yes to my being like a little bit miserable about it.

• 42:03Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's very easy to say yes, please, or yes, thank you. When you're like looking at the Grand Canyon or your kid is running to jump in your arms or you're like on stage. It's, it's very easy to do it to the things that you actually want. The whole point is, can you get to a place where you have gratitude and acceptance? Like the Stoics use this word ascent, A S S E N T, like not, you know, not like up a mountain, but just like accepting this. And I think there's something about the gratitude or the saying, the practice of being like, yes, thank you. This is it. That's just deciding to, this is what it is as opposed to what I want it to be or not want it to be. It just is.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:38Ryan Holiday?

  And the, the whole point is, can you do that when at some level you actually don't want to say thank you? That's really the only time it matters.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  No, that's the best use of it though.

• 42:47Ryan Holiday?

  That's the only time, being grateful for things you should be grateful for. To not do that is ingratitude.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:53Ryan Holiday?

  The gratitude as a practice has to be, can you do, like, can you do it when you don't want to? And I think another way to think about this is with discipline or with courage or any of the virtues. If you're not afraid, then you can't be courageous.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:07Ryan Holiday?

  If you're not tempted,

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:10Ryan Holiday?

  or if you want to do it, then you can't say it was discipline.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:13Ryan Holiday?

  It goes back to, I do it all for my family.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Ryan Holiday?

  No, you did it because you wanted to do it and it happens to be in your family's best interest.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:20Ryan Holiday?

  Like you.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  For the life that you desire.

• 43:21Ryan Holiday?

  You don't, like, I don't like alcohol. Like, I just don't like the taste. So I don't make a big thing about the fact that I don't drink. Because it's not really about self-control.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:29Ryan Holiday?

  There's other things that I don't do that I want to do.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:32Ryan Holiday?

  That I go, hey, I'm a person who doesn't do that.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:35Ryan Holiday?

  That's about discipline.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:36Ryan Holiday?

  But I, I didn't drink last night because I find it yucky.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:42Ryan Holiday?

  And so like.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  You can't claim.

• 43:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Sobriety or the virtue of.

• 43:46Ryan Holiday?

  So, so when you're in golden hour at the beach.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Ryan Holiday?

  And you're just like, it's so wonderful to be alive. I'm so grateful. I'm so happy. If you can't do it there, there's something wrong with you.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:55Ryan Holiday?

  The point is, can you do it in traffic?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, on the tarmac of a delayed flight. But that's when it'll feel really, really good. Because again, what I was reading this morning, it's fresh on my mind, is the, the separate self. So the seemingly private inside self, which as we've already kind of covered, is a cluster of.

• 44:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Memories and thoughts and sensations that we go like, these are consistent, they're me. Isn't an entity, it's an activity and the activity is seeking and resisting. So when you say, yes, thank you, you're neither seeking nor resisting. So what's revealed is what we've been calling the screen. So when you're in, on a tarmac, which isn't that unpleasant, but it's pretty shitty. People tend to lose their shit a little bit on a tarmac. And you say, yes, thank you to that. You see that, again, the movie playing is a guy bored on an airplane. But the screen, the fundamental mystery, that is the most exciting thing in the world. Maybe not to the mind.

• 44:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Is as present there as it is when you're in a three-way on the beach.

• 45:02Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Robert Greene, who his episode on your show is one of my all time favorites. Cause I Really? Not many people know him like that. Yeah. And you got like fun, funny, like mischievous Robert, which most people get to sort of serious. To be in character. Yeah, yeah. And they get the intellectual professional Robert and you got him talking about like upper deckers and stuff like it was amazing. But, but he told me once, and he gave me this economy that I think about all the time. I wrote it down. It's I framed it. It's on my wall. And he was talking specifically, I was like, I was thinking about leaving my job to become a writer and, but I had some time left. But he just said, he's like, there's two types of time in life. There's a live time and there's dead time and you get to choose what every moment is. And so his point was like, you have to work this

• 45:44Ryan Holiday?

  job for another year before you quit to become a writer. Are you just gonna kill a year of your life? Or is this year gonna, you're gonna look back and be like, that year set me up for all the stuff that I'm doing in the future. Like, I really got a lot out of that year. And so I kind of think about, like, I just flew a ton and every single one of my flights was delayed for multiple hours. Oh, wow. And I would just go like, okay, is this a live time or dead time? What phone calls do I need to make? How many miles am I going to walk in the airport? What book am I going to have read? You know, like, how am I just not gonna erase three hours of my life because United said we would take off at seven? Yeah. And in fact, we took off at 10. So I was just like, I'll die. Do you know what? Like, why would I kill myself for three hours? Yeah.

• 46:28Ryan Holiday?

  Or just for no purpose, I'm just gonna go like, this time is insignificant and not worth living. When we kill time, time is killing us. So you never get those three hours back. And I'm not saying you have to be like Mark Wahlberg and get a workout in. But I'm just saying like, what are you gonna do in that time?

• 46:46Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode.