#1320 Mauricio Tovar | Bitcoin Saves People In Latin America

Mauricio Tovar is the Co-Founder at Tropykus.com and CEO at TRUWeb3. Tropykus Fiance offers simple digital loan and credit products focused on emerging economies. In this conversation, we talk about bitcoin in Latin America, governments and leaders, benefits, risks, stablecoins, DeFi, Web3, and what the future may look like. ======================= Base is making it their mission to bring a billion people onchain. But what exactly is Base? It's an Ethereum L2 offering a seamless experience for both builders and users. With near-zero gas fees and rapid transaction speeds, Base is shaping the future of the onchain world. Base is a canvas for everyone, with hundreds of apps in the Base ecosystem, whether you're an emerging creator, a seasoned developer, or someone exploring the onchain space for the first time, Base is designed to bring your ideas to life. So, if you're looking for a platform where the future of onchain is being built daily, Base is your destination. Join in and make onchain the next online. Learn more at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠base.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and follow along on Twitter at @BuildOnBase to see cool things to do onchain, everyday. ======================= BetOnline.ag is a proud sponsor of the the Pomp Podcast. Use crypto to bet on sports, play poker and enjoy casino games at BetOnline. Visit https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp and use promo code POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline boasts no crypto transaction fees, and processing is anonymous, instantaneous and secure. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Today's episode is with Mauricio Tovar. He is the founder of Tropicus. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin in Latin America, what they're seeing going on in that region, how stable coins play into this, whether people are using Bitcoin to save, spend, speculate, or anything else. I always enjoy talking to founders,

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  and Mauricio has a very unique perspective. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. You learn something new about Bitcoin in Latin America. Here is my conversation with Mauricio Tovar.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Base. Base is making it their mission to bring a billion people on-chain. What exactly is Base? It's a layer-two offering a seamless experience for both builders and users. With near-zero gas fees and rapid transaction speeds, Base is shaping the future of the on-chain world. Base is a canvas for everyone with hundreds of apps in the ecosystem, whether you're an emerging creator, a seasoned developer, or someone exploring the on-chain space for the first time. Base is designed to bring your ideas to life. So if you're looking for a platform where the future of on-chain is being built daily, Base is your destination. Join in and make on-chain the next online. Learn more at base.org or follow along on Twitter at BuildOnBase. Again, that's at BuildOnBase

• 2:07Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:50Anthony Pompliano?

  BetOnline, the game starts here. BetOnline.ag, go check them out today. All right, guys, bang, bang, I've got Mauricio here. What is going on with Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in Latin America? It seems like there's tons of reports here in the United States and in the Western world of what people perceive to be happening. You're there on the ground, though, so what exactly is going on?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot is happening and it's not a... Thank you very much for having me, Anthony, by the way. It's not a coincidence that developing countries and Latin Americans are leading the adoption of crypto. Because in regions like the States and Europe, people see crypto like the possibility to speculate and win money. In Latin America, we see Bitcoin and crypto as the possibility to save our wealth. Why? Because in our region, our local currencies has been devalued a lot in the past decades.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  And we don't have some options by the financial services like you have, guys, in the States and Europe. So crypto is an alternative for that, and that's why we need these kind of solutions. And in my perspective, that is why we are leading the adoption of crypto and Bitcoin.

• 4:12Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you see the average person who is using these technologies, who are they? Are they business owners? Are they individuals? Are they wealthy? Are they not wealthy? Are they using it to store value? Are they trying to transact? What are they doing? And who are they?

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it depends. We are a region with common problems, but with some specific issues by country. In places like Venezuela, they are using it not only to say to escape from inflation, but also for remittances. Colombia have a very big diaspora of Venezuelans, and we share these remittances between the countries. And Bitcoin, stablecoins are alternatives for that. In places like Argentina, they are using it to save money, just to escape from inflation

• 5:08Speaker 02

  and to avoid some restrictions that historically they have by the last governments. And in places like Colombia or Brazil, that we cannot open US dollar bank accounts, it's an alternative to access to dollars without restrictions. So yeah, there is some different use cases. Not all of them are wealthy people. Of course, there is some part of speculation. We cannot avoid that. But most of the people is just trying to save their money using stablecoins mainly and Bitcoin, the people that can have a more broad, long-term vision in their investments.

• 5:50Anthony Pompliano?

  And what about government? Are they excited about this? Are they not excited about this? Are they asleep at the wheel, not paying attention? Are they encouraging adoption and uses?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Also, there is a variation. It depends on the country. Places like El Salvador, that is pushing a lot about Bitcoin. It's illegal to turn their... There are places like Bolivia, it's illegal to use cryptocurrencies. And the rest of Latin America is like in a... Gray area. Brazil is maybe a very good example of regulation of exchanges, of regulation of cryptocurrencies. And it's a very interesting market, but it's a different language, you know, it's very big Brazil, but it's a different language. And the rest of the of the countries like in Colombia, where I'm based,

• 6:42Speaker 02

  there's some announcements that they're pushing about crypto, about regulation of exchanges. Actually, I met the Colombian president and he speaks very well about the Bitcoin use cases or the benefit of the population. But it's not clear. In most of the of the countries, the regulation is not that clear. A lot of announcements, but not not specific actions like El Salvador or Brazil.

• 7:13Anthony Pompliano?

  And in these countries where the adoption is being pushed, it seems like the leaders of these countries believe that Bitcoin can even the playing field on a global stage. It can really not only enhance an individual's financial position, but also the countries. Is that coming to fruition? Like, you know, and I'll give you a good example. In Argentina as an example, Malay has balanced the budget. It's got a surplus for the first time in like 12, 15 years, whatever it is. Um, he seems to be excited about Bitcoin, but I don't think that much of the progress he's made so far is due to Bitcoin. If you go to El Salvador, my understanding is again, there's been immense progress. They're very excited about Bitcoin. They've opened up the optionality for Bitcoin.

• 7:58Anthony Pompliano?

  But most of the progress made to date are things like, you know, getting crime down, less violent society, things that aren't necessarily directly linked to the adoption of Bitcoin.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. In the case of Argentina, Malay has been in the power only two months. Um, before him, he it wasn't like a very strong push about cryptocurrencies from the government. It was more from the population, from the need. It was more from ground to top that in El Salvador, top down. This was in the other in the other way. I don't think actually that Malay is that Bitcoiner. He has been talking good about Bitcoin and how central banks are.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  He tells to the people scams with some of the arguments that we the Bitcoiners put in the field, but he's more a dollar guy than a Bitcoin guy. Actually, he wants to dollarize the economy. He wants to kill the Argentinean peso, that's for sure. But he didn't talk yet about using Bitcoin. He talks about dollars. In the case of El Salvador, it's very different. Bukele talks directly and he has a law about Bitcoin adoption. It's a legal tender.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  I agree with you that maybe the education of the population is not the best in the past years, but he invests in Bitcoin and now his investments are winning money for the country. That was a very strong critic for him, but right now he's a genius, you know? So he waits for the right moment. And yeah, I think that more other countries will follow the path if the Bitcoin price will increase and Bukele will be the first. And yeah, there's other priorities in the country about security.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Maybe Bitcoin is not the best or the main bet, but is leading the state bet for these cryptocurrencies in Latin America without any doubt.

• 10:20Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you see so much of the day to day on the ground, what are you most excited about or what like if I was to say to you, tell me some information or data that proves that this is actually working on the ground, what would you tell me?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Well, look, for example, when if you go to Buenos Aires, to Argentina, and if you need to exchange dollars for Argentinean pesos, you can go for any of the physical exchanges that they call Cuevas there. And you can exchange USDT or USDC for local currencies, in some for the local currency, for the Argentinean peso. If you want to pay in some places with crypto, you can pay in Argentina using crypto. But also, some use cases we saw in trivius exactly is people that the last option that they have is crypto and DeFi

• 11:20Speaker 02

  to take loans or to save money in US dollars and to yield that money. We know people that have financed their wedding using loans on DeFi with Bitcoin as a collateral. We know people that is buying some photo cameras to work with them and to pay the loan with them. We know people that is building their own home with this kind of loans. But also more small cases, for example, people that can ask for a loan in the morning and pay it in the afternoon because these loans are flexible

• 12:02Speaker 02

  and you don't need to wait three, six months or one month to pay it. So those kind of use cases, real use cases, some people say, if some of these services didn't exist, I wouldn't be solving my problem. So thank you for exist. That's the main messages that they say.

• 12:24Anthony Pompliano?

  If I was to tell you, prove to me it's not working. Critique the adoption so far. Critique the technology. Critique what's going on in Latin America. What would you tell me? What would you point to as things that don't look so great or things that need to be addressed and there's areas of improvement?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  That is a good question. This kind of solutions, Latin Americans knows about them for years. And the adoption, we are leading the adoption, but the adoption is not massive. It's not, maybe Argentina is leading with no more than 20% of the population using it. And the rest of the countries are below that percentage. And I think that is because it's not easy to use. The US UI, we need to improve it. And also, we need to talk more the language of the people and less the language of our ecosystem. Because we are part of the community. We want to talk about the things that we want to talk about Bitcoin, about monetary policy,

• 13:25Speaker 02

  about how these can solve in the future these problems. But the people need to save money to access dollars, to access to a loan in a fair interest rates, and that's it. And we need to speak in that language. And we need to improve the US UI if we want this to be massive in our region.

• 13:50Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the areas that you see Tropicus filling it? Is it a replacement for the legacy banks? Is it an augmentation? Is it a small percentage of someone's wallet share or bank account? Or is it trying to get the majority?

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Right now, we are the last option for the people that don't find any other option in the market by the banks or the banks. But we want to be the first option. That's why we have been evolving the product, starting with Bitcoin as a collateral, loans, savings in US dollars. And we are entering in a new phase, in a new version of Tropicus that is for companies and employees, where companies can save money in US dollars that are backed by US dollar treasury bonds. And they can, with that treasury, delegate loans to their employees with better interest rates.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Rates than the market and the employees don't need any collateral and with a very few um or very small um check about their their credit history. So that is going to open a more broad market because right now there's some limitations in this kind of technologies. Sometimes you need collateral to ask for a loan, collateral in Bitcoin to ask for a loan in in US dollars, but some people say, I don't have collateral, but I gonna pay you. Please let give me some options and these options with companies and their employees is what we call in the region, because this market exists, is a salary collateral as loans

• 15:31Speaker 02

  that are backed by the own salary of the of the employees. The possibility to access to loans with better interest rates without the need of collateral.

• 15:43Anthony Pompliano?

  And in that process, um what could go wrong? What are the risks?

• 15:48Speaker 02

  There are uh uh some some risks, of course, there is smart contracts. So smart contracts and the technology is very new. And people need to be aware about that, that we are using a smart contract. That is, there is the risk, a technology risk. In the financial part, uh you can think that companies once the that the employees pay their their loan, but they are backed by their own salary and the severance payment. If the employee asks for a loan and they don't pay, they can take that that money from the salary and the severance payment. And they agree of change about how they can manage the the between between them.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Uh there are some risks in the interest rates of the treasury bonds, because right now they are high in the short term and they can uh go down, but we are going to offer other possibilities to yield. For example, we are looking for electronic bills that is uh uh recognized by the law in places like Colombia. You can tokenize those uh electronic bills. And they can be another source of deal very that the companies understand very well because they trade with with their own bills every day. So yeah, we're looking for for that. There are some risks. We are very open in our platform to to show those risks. But yeah, there are the main ones.

• 17:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, how much of the adoption around stable coins is happening in Latin America, one, two, and is it remittances where people from America or other developed nations are trying to send money back and there's what adoption is happening? Or are people in Latin America actually going and buying these assets and saying, no, I want to store my wealth in something other than my native currency?

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have to say that most of the of the adoption of stable coins in Latin America is in Tether using the Tron network is led by by places like Argentina that they use a lot, all of the Cuevas or these physical exchanges use this kind of solutions for the in a daily basis. In places like Colombia, it's more for cross border payments. Same situation in Venezuela, they have both remittances, cross border payments, and protection from inflation of the and the valuation of the of the local currencies. Mexico is another

• 18:25Speaker 02

  country that with the United States have a lot of of remittances. And actually, I there is a communication of the biggest exchange of Mexico that right now they are doing more than 2% of all remittances between Mexico and the United States using crypto. So those are the the adoption and also in payments. You can see in places like Argentina that people is trading between them using the stable coins mainly USDT offered.

• 19:04Anthony Pompliano?

  And what about Bitcoin in that? Are people trying to use, I know like a strike and many of these platforms will allow you to send dollars, pesos, you know, whatever your local currency is across the Bitcoin network? Is there some of that going on as well?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, before, before the, the increase of adoption of stablecoins, Bitcoin was the king in Latin America. There was a lot of adoption for remittances, for payments and other use cases. But after, after that important growth of stablecoins, people, the population is using mainly stablecoins. I, I think that there is like two kinds of investors, if you want to call it, is like short-term investors or people that cannot afford long-term investments, that only can save a part of their salary or use few dollars per, per month.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  They cannot use Bitcoin because with the volatility of Bitcoin, if they have some emergency, they need that money and they need that, that money, maintain the, the, the power, their purchase power for any situation. Other situation, other case is people that can afford more long-term investments and in that group, Bitcoiners are using, not only Bitcoiners, but people that invest in Bitcoin are part of it. But yeah, in the daily basis, we use more stablecoins that for example, for payments, Lightning Network or something like that.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Is, is some exchanges in Latin America, that is a very good news, allow Latin Americans to withdraw their money or to send money to the exchange using Lightning Network. And we have a very good adoption in that sense from exchanges.

• 21:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What about like on-chain financial services, things, you know, DeFi, Web 3, whatever you want to call it? That was like this promise of, you know, banking the unbanked and many other, you know, platitudes or kind of phrases that people use. What was the current status of that? I know you guys are working on things that are kind of tangentially related, but how about outside of just the Bitcoin ecosystem and, and maybe the education level of the potential users and their interest in adopting it?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a small portion in the crypto ecosystem that use DeFi. That's why we created Tropicus, actually, because we believe in the benefits of the technology and how it can solve the problems of Latin Americans. But only few people have been using it for the past two years.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  There are some projects, very interesting projects, DeFi projects and Web3 projects in places like Argentina, I think that Buenos Aires is leading this movement, in Brazil, in Mexico, Colombia, and Chile. Those are the places where entrepreneurs are using their own problems to solve or to present solution to the market and to open the possibilities to compete with the fintechs and with the banks to offer financial services.

• 22:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And when we see maybe 10 years out from now, what is your prediction as to where this is all going? Are we going to get the Bitcoinization of Latin America? Are we going to just be dollarized via stablecoins? Is all of the financial services going to be on-chain? Is it going to be, no, actually look more similar to what it looks like today than anything?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, my analysis about that is that in the short term, for the Latin Americans, Bitcoin is a riskier alternative, but in the long term, it's not. And people will saw that with the time, and places like El Salvador will be a very good example to show that long-term investments in Bitcoin will be the best options, not only for governments like El Salvador, but also for the population. It's going to take time. In the meantime, in the short term, will be better for Latin Americans, stablecoins like US dollar or stablecoins, USD, stablecoins.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  But I also see a trend, and this is very weird to hear, but I see a trend of Latin American cryptocurrencies that you can see, you can think that it's a shitcoin, you know? But people, for example, don't want to access to loans in US dollars because their debt should increase with the time. They want loans in local currencies and they understand that finance better in local currencies. And we will need this kind of local currencies crypto. I'm not, I'm not saying CBD serves us or play that because of the risk of privacy and centralization. But I think that the private sector will open this possibility.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  So I think that with the time, most people will use crypto, will use Bitcoin as a long-term investment. I don't see a Bitcoinization in less than 10 years, but you don't know. Bitcoin, it's, it's a, it do things that you don't believe. The Salvador example, we, we didn't believe that it will happen ever or in the short term. You don't know, but right now with, with the path, I don't think that in 10, in 10 years, we will be, eh, we will see a Bitcoin, a full Bitcoinization of one country in Latin America yet. But sometimes I'm pretty sure it will happen.

• 24:51Anthony Pompliano?

  And let's say that these technologies do get adopted. Does inflation get under control and people become less dependent on central banks and their decision-making? Or are there two parallel kind of systems and people stuck in the old one are still hurt by the high inflation? And people in the new system are protected?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  That, that is a very, very good question. If you analyze that, if people start to save more money in US dollars, crypto US dollars, for example, they are going to escape from the local currencies. And that will push those local currencies to devaluate more. So we, we, we need to think about it because eh, if we bring options to the population to escape from inflation and devaluation and the, the local currency maintain, like for example, if for any reason the Argentinean peso will maintain in the time and it's not replaced by US dollars, for example, what that is what Mile wants. People that stay in Argentinean peso will suffer more.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  So eh, yeah, it's a, it's a good question. You never know what is going to happen. But if everybody start to save money in a different currency that the local, that local currency will, will lose more value than expected.

• 26:07Anthony Pompliano?

  And what would you say is the most surprising thing about your future view that people aren't thinking about right now?

• 26:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Like the thing you believe that other people haven't wrapped their head around yet.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that problems that we have in Latin America that are very

• 26:27Speaker 02

  particular, specific, they're problems of developing countries. Those problems and the kind of solutions that we have in the region, like these salary collateralized loans that other, other regions in the, in the, in the country even understand are going to be the differentiation of Web3, crypto and, and blockchain technologies. Because we are building for the, from the needs that we live every day. Argentinians, Brazilians, Venezuelans, Colombians. We are trying to build a solution for ourselves.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  And I think that that knowledge, that experience that we have in each of our countries will be the, the solutions that the world will adopt in the future. And that will bring crypto as a solution and, and as, as an alternative of the traditional financial system that is going to, is going to be there too. It's like, I don't know, like other services, like places to, to find flights in the physical world already still exist. But we, most of the population use another services in the internet. But old people still use this kind of, of, of services.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  So yeah, I think that Latin America has the knowledge and developing countries has the knowledge that will bring these solutions to be mainstream around the world.

• 28:04Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you think about your team and your vision for the product, what exactly do you guys see there in terms of you're highly successful, you accomplish everything you want to, what does it look like in 10 years?

• 28:16Speaker 02

  What we are looking for is that people think about Tropicus as the first option to access to savings, first savings and to loans in Latin America. That is our mission to bring the best services to Latin Americas and that the use of our service will be very, very simple. We have been working on that for the past few years. It's very simple to use the first version of Tropicus, but we want to use that people don't feel that they are using financial services using Tropicus and they can access

• 28:56Speaker 02

  the best solutions around the world at the best interest rates with the global liquidity that we can access through these technologies. So yeah, that is our mission.

• 29:08Anthony Pompliano?

  And when I ask people who use the product, what would you say is the thing that they would come back and say, I didn't think this was possible, or this is the reason why I keep coming back, why retention is so high, etc.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is a very good question. People doesn't believe that they can do what they can do with Tropicus because it's a self custodial platform. They can use whatever you want. They don't need to ask anyone. They don't need any credit history to use Tropicus. Of course, in the first version, they need collateral, they need Bitcoin to use it. But in some parts, they cannot save money in US dollars. So when they use Tropicus and they saw that there is no restriction, that they can use it very open, that there is no limit for them, that is the hot moment for them. They say, this is the option that I need because I tried to do it with the banks, I

• 30:07Speaker 02

  tried to do it with the fintechs, I explore all the alternatives and no one of them wants to serve me like you guys.

• 30:18Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the thing that over the next 12 months you expect Bitcoin to do? Obviously ETFs are a big deal. Are people in Latin America excited about ETFs? Are they buying it? The halving is coming. There's talk of looser monetary policy. Is price going up, going down? What is Mauricio's take on Bitcoin in the next 12 months through the Latin American lens?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  That is a very good one. Of course, the easy answer is to continue the path of the cycles of the past cycles of Bitcoin. It looks like we are entering a bull market. If you look at the history on those cycles. But I always say that Bitcoin every one year or two years is used for something that you don't expect. So what I expect is that it's going to be one topic in the next two months that nobody is expecting to happen with Bitcoin because it happened in the past.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  So yeah, what I'm expecting is a big surprise from Bitcoin like it did in the past, but we don't know what is going to be.

• 31:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Where can we send people to find you or find out more about the product?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Tropicus, it's tropykus.com. You can see all the information there. We are serving Latin America. Unfortunately, for American users, we are not allowed to do it in the front end because the uncertainty of the regulators and it's not our focus to solve problems. We are very focused in developing countries and Latin Americans. So tropykus.com with Y and K. And my personal handle is MauroToff. My Mauro and the third one of my last name, MauroToff, in any of the social media platforms, mainly on Twitter.

• 32:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking that time to do this. This is very enlightening, I think, in terms of what's happening there in Latin America. And really excited to keep learning more and we'll do this again in the future.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Thank you very much, Anthony, for your time. And I hope that the people that is looking to your show, like me, knows more about Latin America, better Latin America. I think this is going to be the region of the future. We have a very young population. We have a very important nature in the region. And we expect to grow a lot. And we are betting to solve the financial problems to help on that. Thank you very much, Anthony.

• 33:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Thanks so much.