541 | Surrender

The Minimalists talk with author and speaker Kute Blackson about quiet luxury, letting go of stigmas, the difference between surrendering and giving up, the requirements of optimism, and more. Discussed in this episode: How should I handle the assumptions and stigma I've encountered since embracing a simpler, more comfortable style of dress? (3:50) What's the difference between surrendering and giving up? (26:58) Right Here, Right Now: The final stop of the Minimalism 2026 tour. (39:43) Listener tip: Worry is a waste of the imagination. (42:28) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  This podcast has bad words.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields Millburn here. TK Coleman is over there.

• 0:44Speaker 03

  Yes, indeed.

• 0:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Today, we are joined by a beloved international speaker and transformational teacher. He speaks at countless events around the world. His latest book is this one right here. It's called The Magic of Surrender: Finding the Courage to Let Go. Please welcome to the show our new friend, Koo Blackson's here.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, maybe a poem is appropriate to start.

• 1:10Speaker 03

  Hey, man, I want to dedicate this to my new friend, Koo. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. The only man to step into this studio that's prettier than me.

• 1:21Speaker 03

  He's as cool as Prince, smooth as Michael Jackson. Muhammad Ali's still the greatest, but his successor and son is Koo Blackson. Yeah.

• 1:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's the first time I've ever had a poem dedicated to me.

• 1:36Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Clip that, Savvy D. Well, here's something to chew on, TK. I've got a little maxim for you. I want to start this episode with simplicity is the opposite of sloppy. Now, since we're talking about surrender today, within the context of surrender, what does that mean to you? Simplicity is the opposite of sloppy.

• 1:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me, it makes me think of the distinction between the complex and the complicated. We often think of simplicity and complexity as being opposites, but complexity is actually an extension of simplicity. When you master simplicity, you can layer that until you arrive at complexity. But when you lack simplicity, what you arrive at is that which is complicated. And that's the sloppiness. You know, it reminds me of the quote that you say all the time about, excuse me for writing a letter that is so long, I didn't have a sufficient amount of time to make it brief. Simplicity takes work, the willingness to look at our clutter, not just the clutter without, but the clutter within, and to face those demons and to reconcile those shadows to ourselves.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  And when we run from that work, we end up with the sloppy. And that's the easy thing, but it produces a complicated life.

• 2:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, we often mistake simple and easy. And one of the distinctions we try to make here is simple isn't easy. Sloppy is easy, but simple is something different. It's intentional, it's deliberate. And we're going to be talking today a bit about surrender and making a distinction between surrender and giving up. Since we have Koot here, I also want to talk about letting go of stigmas. We have a great question about that. Also, our first question today has something to do with quiet luxury. And we'll talk about the requirements of optimism, which is not a phrase you've probably heard me talk about before, but the requirements, optimism actually requires something from you. I want to talk to you a bit about that today and so much more.

• 3:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Also, on page three, we have three ways that clutter is harming your health and how to fix it. Let's start with our callers. If you have a question for the show, we'd love to hear from you. 406-219-7839 is the phone number, or you can send a voice memo right from your phone to [email protected]. We'd love to have you on the program. Send your questions in. Our first question today is from Mary in Australia.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  Hi Minimalists, um, I have sent you in a question before. So this is my second time sending in a question. So something that I have realised after downsizing and letting go of all my glamorous clothing, things that were tiring me out, like doing my hair, doing my makeup, wearing, you know, a fitted dress, that got exhausting. I'm thirty-six years old, I've had three open-heart surgeries, so I don't have energy for that. Um, so I simplified and I kind of go from between a couple of tracksuits that I have, so track pants, matching hoodie.

• 4:39Speaker 04

  And something that I've realised, that I thought I would bring up, um, to you guys over there at The Minimalists, is ever since I've been wearing these track pants and hoodies, it has given a weird, I don't know, effect on people around me. So, uh, whenever I go into stores, things now, like people follow me around the store, they stand behind me when I'm in store, I get my bag checked when I'm leaving the store. So I'm starting to think people think that I'm either a criminal or that I am broke. But really, I am just tired.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  So I'm, you know, I'm clean, um, I'm going in with a clean tracksuit, um, my hair is, you know, presentable, I don't really wear makeup much anymore. And this is freeing to me, but, uh, going in public, the way people look at you and the amount of things that have happened when I have gone into stores. I don't know, what are your thoughts on this side of being simple? Like, you know, people thinking that you're either a criminal or you're poor, um, what are your thoughts?

• 5:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  First off, I have to comment on the backing soundtrack to her voicemail. I felt like she must have hired a team of Foley artists to perfectly capture. It sounded very NPR, right? Like, I'm out here in the field right now.

• 6:11Speaker 05

  We're voting.

• 6:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Now, this question, there's something about surrender here. And in fact, I want to talk to you a bit about the magic of surrender. We have a question of the week coming up at the bottom of page one. So we'll, we'll touch on that. But there's something specific here with respect to her question. On the surface, it's something, the question is about wardrobe and dressing simply. Everyone in this room today happens to be wearing all black, which is pretty remarkable. It's not always the case, especially with Professor Sean here. He's often brightly colored. But I find that this question, there's a question underneath it. And it has to do with other people's assumptions. And it also has something to do with the, the stigmas that we experience when we make some sort of major life change.

• 6:57Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so if you were talking to Mary face to face, what would you tell her?

• 7:02Speaker 05

  Well, first, I think she's incredibly courageous, you know, because so much of our culture tries to convince us that our sense of value, our sense of worth, our sense of validation, our ability to be accepted is outside. And so much of the world and media and retailers distract our attention to focus on the external. And your sense of value, your sense of self, your sense of worth in the world is related to everything outside. So, so we have a focus that is externally based. What you wear, what you buy, how you look, your hairstyle, the brand of your socks, your shoes, you know, your car.

• 7:48Speaker 05

  And I think that's where we've been brainwashed and conditioned. And so much of our society reinforces that. And so I would just first say to her, you're incredibly courageous to shift that focus because I think real freedom is an inner state of being. It's an inner state of being connected to who you are, connected to what you are, connected to your truth. And I think, you know, minimalism is not about having or not having. It's about the degree to which. You need to have certain things in order to feel okay, in order to feel whole.

• 8:27Speaker 05

  So I think that there is a deeper evolution happening, maybe on an emotional level, spiritual level, developmental level, that she's going through. That is growth, where she's no longer needing her sense of value reflected out here, outside, by the world, by society, by friends, family, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think, congratulations, you know, this inner state of freedom is what no one can take from you. That's dangerous. That's powerful. You know, that is to be truly alive. So I think minimalism is to remove everything that doesn't make you feel truly alive.

• 9:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  You know?

• 9:07Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. And all the other stuff is clutter. But the problem we're coming to here, TK, with Mary, is that she did remove those things, that she didn't have the time to spend on anymore. Maybe she just wasn't interested in the fashion choices of yesteryear. And now she feels like there's a particular stigma associated with that. And other people are branding her as, well, she said either poor, or lazy, or maybe you're even a criminal. So first of all, there's nothing wrong with being poor. And so if someone thinks you're poor, there's always going to be someone who thinks you're poor. There are people who think Jay-Z is poor because he only has $1 billion, right? And so poor is relative. But I also think that what Koot was saying here makes a whole lot of sense because

• 9:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  there is something about, the problem with income inequality, there's a deeper problem underneath that. And that problem is the, we have more than ever. A king 300 years ago couldn't imagine what the poorest person in America has access to. And so that's not the problem by itself. The poverty isn't. The problem is the having, in a way, and needing more of what we don't have, right? And there's a story here that I think that Mary might be telling herself about, everyone looks at me differently now. And it may be true, some people do look at you differently. But most of the time, no one notices what you're wearing at all.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's exactly right. We've spoken before about this idea of dressing for the results you care about. If I go to a job interview, I'm going to dress a certain way, not because of some objective list of do's and don'ts, independent of my own desires, but because of my goal and my ability to anticipate how I will be seen, I make that adjustment, right? And so if you don't care about those results, then you're free because you're dressing how you want to dress and you're good. On the other hand, if you do care about that, it really bothers you and you want a different result, it could be an opportunity to say, well, what kind of adjustments am I willing to make? But here's

• 11:16Speaker 03

  what I hear underneath. What rings loud and clear to me is, I'm tired. Even when she expressed people looking at her outfit as a reflection of being poor or being a criminal, the response that was, no, I'm not any of those things, I'm just tired. And there's a difference between saying, I do what I do because I'm tired, versus, I do what I do because it makes me come alive, it nourishes me, it fires me up, it expresses my true self, and I'm going to stick with that even if you're tired of it. When you find what nourishes you and what makes you come alive, other people may get tired of

• 11:57Speaker 03

  that, but because it makes you come alive, you have the strength to handle that. On the other hand, if you're saying, I do this because I'm tired, what that means is, I have erected a defense mechanism to protect me from old patterns of burnout, and I have yet to find the way of being that nourishes me. And so I think there are two distinct questions that we should be asking here. One is, what requires my energy? The other is, what gives me energy? And right now, what I'm hearing is, I dress in a way that avoids what requires my energy. I'm so tired of doing things like I used to do. I'm so burned out and worn out. I don't want my past anymore. So now I'm going to dress in

• 12:42Speaker 03

  a way that doesn't require energy. But the question I will be asking now is, what manner of dressing gives me energy? And no one gets to set those rules but you. But you want to dress not to impress, but you want to dress so that you are expressing who you truly are. And then when you do that, it doesn't matter what people think. You have the power to handle it.

• 13:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When you showed up today, you were dressed in all black. You had a nice bomber jacket on. I felt like you got the memo. I don't know if Savvy D reached out to you beforehand.

• 13:11Speaker 05

  No memo, no email.

• 13:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So I wanted to think about, like, there's a, we're talking a bit about quiet luxury here. This term came into focus toward the end of the 20 teens. And it was about eschewing logos and having nice clothes that fit well, but they don't scream luxury. It's not the Louis Vuitton bag with all the logos. It's not giant ponies on my shirt or whatever. It's about understated and there's a luxury in the simplicity. And so I printed out these pictures. We'll throw them up on the screen. We'll have Tom Cat do it here. There are some folks that I, first I've got this page of like casual, men who are dressed casually,

• 13:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  who also come off as hyper cool. And I think cool is contextual here, right? So we have Donald Glover here, Childish Gambino. He lives up in Ojai. I see him all the time. And he's always kind of dressed like this. The first one is wild. This is from a GQ article. And the GQ headline says it all. Donald Glover has no shirt, tiny shorts, and zero problems. Now, I imagine if someone sees him walking through New York City dressed like that, or Ojai, California, or anywhere else in the world, a lot of people are going to make some assumptions about him. And there may even be a stigma like, oh, wow, he just has these tiny shorts on and they're colorful.

• 14:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And he has a yellow hat on and yellow shorts and some tennis shoes there. And that's all that he's really wearing. And yet there is a quiet confidence to this. And then you juxtapose that with the picture next to it and it's very similar. He's wearing a shirt here, but it's a basic tank top shirt. And he's with his wife, who's also dressed really simply. And he's holding her hand, walking down the street. And he's wearing another pair of colorful shorts here. And yet there's this confidence in all of this. It's not screaming, but there is something, there's something he's exuding here. And he's not the tallest person in the world. He's not the most handsome person in the world. And so I have some other pictures here. You have like Justin Bieber, who's

• 15:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  He might even say he's kind of dressed like a homeless person, right? He might be, if I see him, I know it's Justin Bieber, it's like, oh, he might be poor with the hat and the oversized jacket like that. It looks like maybe he got all of this from Goodwill, but there's a confidence there. Part of that is because he's handsome. But I think the other thing that is worth looking at here is you have people who are confident, regardless of what they look like, they're confident in the clothes they're wearing. They can have the confidence of James Dean, who was also relatively short. So it's not about you have to be a taller man in order to be confident. But I know you might say, well, it's easier for men to dress more simply, right? You can wear your black jeans and you wear your black t-shirt and you're good to go.

• 16:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  But what about women? And so I've got some of these photos we'll put up on the screen here as well. Here are just four women that are, to me, beacons of sort of quiet luxury and of confidence. You have Joan Didion, of course. She was known for being a style icon when she was both young and older. And it's just a simple knit sweater that she is wearing, but she's wearing it with confidence. And in fact, it's oversized. Some people might say that's too baggy. There might be some stigma to that as well. You have Dakota Johnson over here, just wearing some jeans and a white shirt. She's pulling it off beautifully. Of course, we have Aaliyah here, wearing some overalls. And then Billie Eilish, she was dressed in a bright green outfit here with green shoes,

• 16:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  and it's oversized, and yet you see this giant confident smile on her face. And Koot, I'm wondering, why do these people appear to be cool despite their outfits?

• 17:02Speaker 05

  I think cool is, again, it's an inner state of being, you know? It's not what you're wearing, it's how you're feeling inside of yourself. It's the degree of inner self-acceptance, not just for your goodness or your light, but I would say for all of you, whenever I've been around people, that they're not perfect people, you know? So they're not seeking a sense of confidence or validation through, "I'm gonna be perfect and I'm gonna perfect myself." But the people I've been around that really feel... Rested. Hmm. I can tell because in their presence, something in my own nervous system relaxes. Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 05

  Because there's a, there's a, there's a embrace of all of themselves. The light, the dark, the shadow, the good, the bad, the shitty stuff. You know, the exalt, everything. And I think in that space, there's something incredibly peaceful. There's a, there's an internal resistance that isn't there. Yeah. And so I think when someone can accept all of who they are, you know, and they're not trying to be perfect. In that acceptance, there's freedom. In that freedom, there's more aliveness. You know, and I think in that sense, uh, their humanity can flourish. Yeah. You know, and, and so I would say that coolness is about how you feel.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  And then maybe your clothes are simply a reflection, an outer manifestation or reflection of your inner state of being. That's right. I mean, I don't believe like, oh, you should just wear black or just wear white or just, because then you can get caught in another egoic identity and be just as trapped as the person who needs Louis Vuitton. You need to wear nothing. Right. Ego is ego. Identity is identity and identity, or I should say, attachment to identity is suffering. I remember when I was in India, uh, traveling around, you know, uh, I saw this guy wearing like yoga pants and these flowing robes and he had nothing. So I thought that was the thing to do. Like, oh, this is how it is to be spiritual.

• 19:08Speaker 05

  So I threw all of my shit away and I just had this one pair of flowing, you know, this sort of Indian yoga pants. And I was walking around like namaste, brother. Look how spiritual. Without saying, I was trying to, uh, signal, look how spiritual I am and you're not. And that's just another form of ego. Right. You know, so I think when someone is just cool. There's something inside of them that they're not needing from you.

• 19:31Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm.

• 19:32Speaker 05

  Uh, they're not wearing the shirt to telegraph. They're not, not wearing it to signal. They're just being whoever the hell they are. And whatever it is, it is whatever it is. And this is what they love, you know? And so I think that's the freedom. And that's why the coolness comes off with, with this, was it Donnie Glover?

• 19:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 05

  It just, you know, it looks like he's just being himself.

• 19:53Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 05

  This is his expression.

• 19:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, there, there's something interesting. The, the first line of Everything That Remains, our, our most popular book, uh, is our identities are shaped by the costumes we wear. And there, it's a double entendre because we put, we, we try on these new identities, right?

• 20:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 20:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think what you were talking about there is like, I'm going to try on the outfit of spirituality. As opposed to the monk who is super cool, but is cool even without that costume. It's not a costume to them. It is a reflection, as you say. Now TK, I, I'm interested in several things here. Um, one is when I, when I look at these cool people, there's an effortlessness that at least appears here. Now whether or not there's any effort involved is another conversation. But there is something about being cool that is, it has, it, it runs in, in, has an inverse relationship with trying to be cool. The person who tries to be really cool rarely comes off as cool.

• 20:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It comes off as, we even have terms for it, like try hard, right? And so what do you think that is? What, what, what is the, the more someone tries to present as cool or polished, it actually works against them.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Well, there's something about forcing it and being needy that indicates a lack of comfort with and, and confidence in oneself. Because when you know you have it, you're patient enough to let it come to you because you know that what's yours is yours and it can't be lost. And no one can take it from you. But when you're threatened by other people, when, when, when you have a scarcity consciousness where getting what you want seems so fragile. You're, you're insecure, you're, you, you need everyone to like you, then you start to get more performative. But when you say, hey, look, I'm going to go to this event.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  If I don't make any business contacts, that's okay. I'll still have a good time and that'll be great. You're likely to make a lot of friends who'll probably be business contacts for you. But if you go there, you're like, I need something to happen. I need to make sure I I can become friends with somebody and it's gonna turn into a deal. You just exude this energy that people will find repulsive. They may not know what it is, but there's something about you that makes them want to go away. So I think that's a big part of it, yeah.

• 22:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  When I was looking for photos of these different people, there are plenty of other photos of Donald Glover and Justin Bieber and Dakota Fanning, or not Dakota Fanning, Dakota Johnson, who are super like dressed up, you know, they're at some sort of Met Gala or something. And so they're able to do both, but I think the the confidence extends and it's it's even more apparent with these more understated, quiet, luxury things. We often mistake comfort for carelessness. But I think you could be super comfortable and intentional. You don't have to be careless. And then I think that you can also simplify your wardrobe without surrendering your confidence.

• 22:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think that's kind of where we wrap things up with Mary here, Coot, is at the same time that she surrendered her wardrobe, she actually inadvertently surrendered the confidence that she thought that was giving her. Although it wasn't the wardrobe that I think was giving her the confidence, right?

• 23:10Speaker 05

  I think she can tap into, you know, it it gives her an opportunity to sort of go inward. Right? Because the world isn't reflecting that anymore. The world is projecting onto her, you're poor, you're this, you're that. So it kind of, she gets, almost like on a spiritual level, she gets to look at, where have I placed my sense of confidence? Which isn't real confidence, because a confidence that is dependent on something can also be taken away. The stock market, someone's perception, the president, you you you you you pat your hour, you know? And and so I think if she looks at it as as a spiritual process also, where she's being given the opportunity to turn inward.

• 23:53Speaker 05

  And and and and become self, truly self-confident. I would say with a big S, not a small s. Small s is based on the ego self, which is constantly changing, constantly seeking, constantly addicted, constantly needing to reinforce itself. But the true self source being, some people call it God, divine essence, that the the the true essence of what we are, the big S.

• 24:21Speaker 05

  That doesn't change. You know, the hairstyle changes, your clothes change, your underwear changes, your watch changes, but the real essence of what you are doesn't change. And that and I think it gives her the opportunity to tap into that deeper, unchanging nature of her own being, which is true self-confidence. And and so I think she's been gifted with. I remember when during COVID, I moved to Phoenix, had a house in Phoenix. And so I'm like, screw it, I'm gonna leave LA for a year, just locked down, left downtown. When I was in Phoenix, like I went to Target. I didn't really go to Target that much.

• 25:07Speaker 05

  I went to Target and I'm like, no one in Phoenix is dressed up. In LA, you go to Ralph's, it's a production. Everyone is, you gotta wear the right clothes. And I I didn't even realize how hooked in I had gotten through osmosis to the external reflection and validation of what people think about you just by being in the environment. So for the first time, here I am, just walking around the the the Target of Phoenix. People are just flip flops, shorts, T-shirt. I'm all dressed up. Second time, I'm like, screw it, I'm just going with T-shirt. So it it gave me the opportunity to.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Peel away my own egoic identity and addictions. In so many ways, we're so addicted to the external validation in ways we don't even know. And so I think it's, what's the word? Withdrawal. Sometimes the ego has to go to a withdrawal of, love me, validate me. Because there's a deep fear of, if I'm not loved by you, you, you, you, you, and I'm perceived a certain way, then I won't survive. If mommy and daddy don't love me, then I won't survive. If you don't love me, I won't survive. So then I'm gonna die. So there's a underlying egoic, I think, terror of, if you don't see me and if you don't validate me, I'm gonna die and I'll be zero.

• 26:36Speaker 05

  And it's existential. So I think she gets, she's having a profound awakening, you know? We could say of connecting to something deeper, which, which is a profound freedom.

• 26:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I want to extend Mary's question here. We have a question of the week before we get back to our other callers. We've got a bunch more callers today. The question of the week, well, let's, let's surrender to the question of the week this week, TK. What's the difference between surrendering and giving up? That is our question of the week. What's the difference between surrendering and giving up? I know those two words are often used sort of interchangeably. The phrase and the word there are used interchangeably. Let's check out what some of our patrons had to say in the Patreon community chat. Susan said, surrender is releasing the need to control the outcome. Giving up is deciding the outcome is no longer worth the pain of trying.

• 27:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Which brings me to my pithy minimal maxim here, which is surrender ends resistance. Giving up ends effort. Quite often, we will mistake surrender and, and giving up. Coop, what can you tell me about the magic of surrender?

• 27:50Speaker 05

  Wow, you mean the book itself or the the concept? The concept. The concept, wow. You know, I think this uh, there's a misconception that we have about surrender in our culture.

• 28:03Speaker 05

  This sense of surrender is giving up. The sense of surrender means waving the white flag. The sense of surrender means you're gonna be a doormat. If I surrender, I'm gonna be a victim, taken advantage of. I won't manifest my goal, my dream, my desire. If I surrender, I'm gonna get less than I want in life. So why would I wanna surrender? It doesn't sound very enticing or exciting. So there is an egoic resistance to surrender because we see it or perceive it as weak. And I'm actually saying, no, when you truly understand the real essence of surrender, what if you actually didn't get less? What if you got more?

• 28:47Speaker 05

  Maybe not what you thought, maybe not what you what you thought you wanted. But what if it was better than what you thought? What if it was beyond what you could even imagine, visualize, sit down in a law of attraction workshop and make up? What if it was way beyond anything your ego could even fathom, visualize and imagine? And I think when I look at my life, most of the best things in my life happened when I didn't plan them. Most of the best things in in my life happened when I when I truly let go of what I thought I wanted. And so part of surrender is a letting go of control. Part of surrender is a letting go of the illusion that we are even in control, you know?

• 29:29Speaker 05

  Part of surrender is, I think, letting go of the idea of who we think we should be. Because we have all these ideas of who we think we should be, which are often driven by parents and childhood and wounds and some ancestral conditioning that has been passed down from grandparents as well, even genetically, energetically, karmically. So surrender is letting go of the idea of who we think we should be, the idea of how we think our life should look.

• 29:56Speaker 05

  And allowing ourselves, I would say, to be open, to be available, to allowing life to...

• 30:04Speaker 05

  Lead you, allowing life to show you. And I think if we truly let go and we're available and we're open, then life kind of shows you how it's flowing. And I think there's a deeper intelligence if we're willing to pay attention. I think so often in the ego-based paradigm, there's this idea of, you have to know what you want, right? Write it down, set the goals, know what you want, get attached to it and go crush it, make it happen at all costs. But sometimes you might get what you thought you wanted, only to realize that what you thought you wanted was not what you really wanted. It was just what you thought you wanted based on what you thought you needed in order to be enough. So now I need the car, the house, the Lamborghini, the mansion, the this, the that. Now your life gets cluttered with all this stuff that isn't truly what you're really seeking.

• 30:50Speaker 05

  And so then we're left dissatisfied and unhappy. And so for me, in the magic of surrender, I'm really asking a different question. Not, what do I want? This sense of I, right? The ego I, I'm really asking,

• 31:04Speaker 05

  it's like, what is it that life is seeking to express through me? What is it that God, this divine intelligence, is seeking to manifest through me? And kind of allowing yourself the space to be open and available, to listening deeply to the deeper, authentic expression and impulse of what is truly seeking to happen through you. And then you can align your actions and your life and your resources with that and follow that. It might not be what you thought. And so one thing I just want to say is surrender is not laziness. It is not just sitting there, oh, what do you mean surrender? Just sit there and eat Cheerios and, you know, watch reality TV and it's just life's gonna happen?

• 31:46Speaker 05

  No, it's you feel what is most true, not the surface level, like, give me the house, give me the car. What is most true? And sometimes what we're guided to do may not be what we expect, but it might scare the hell out of us. But having the courage to follow like, wow.

• 32:05Speaker 05

  Move to LA, you know, move to Houston, start the podcast. I'm terrified. How am I gonna do it? But you feel that most deeply. And surrender is to follow your deepest, most authentic truth. And that might means, you know, working 24 hours a day. It might mean, you know, making the sacrifices. It might mean waking up at 7:00 AM in the morning or working till 7:00 AM the next day. Who knows? But when I look at people like Jesus, or Gandhi, or Mother Teresa, or Bruce Lee, or Muhammad Ali, you know, Martin Luther King, at some point, they all surrendered themselves.

• 32:47Speaker 05

  There was a direction they were going down, but then there was a deeper calling, and they could have resisted, but I think that would have led to a more limited life. I would say Mandela did not plan to spend 27 years in prison. You know, I want to spend 27 years in prison. That's a great goal-setting workshop. It wasn't his.

• 33:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It was never written down.

• 33:10Speaker 05

  It wasn't his plan. But he followed his deepest truth. Life unfolded a certain way. And I would say he was forced to surrender. And in that surrender, he transcended his human limitations and tapped into another dimension of life. And life started expressing through him, God, the divine, whatever people believe. Life began to manifest through him in ways that he couldn't imagine. You know, and I think life got incredibly simple. I think life becomes very simple when we surrender.

• 33:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oof. TK, Mike, one of our listeners from Patreon, said surrender is realizing you're unable to change the circumstances that are beyond your control. A lot of wisdom traditions and religions often talk about the power of surrender. When you think about surrender, what do you think about?

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Well, I think about the couple of cliches. One is let go and let God, right? Growing up, I would often hear that phrase, wait on the Lord, wait on the Lord. And what I came to understand later on in life is that It's an act of waiting, not a passive waiting. It's not a waiting that says, I'm gonna sit back and let God or the universe work magic on my behalf and cause things to happen independently of my cooperation with the flow. But I'm going to take action to the best that I know how, but I won't force the results. I will trust the process and the process behind the process.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  And so when I think about that, I think about surrender not as a kind of, you know, passive refusal to get involved, not as a lack of faith or a lack of decisiveness, but rather as a kind of faith that is confident, not just in the process, but in the results.

• 34:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah. What I'm hearing from both of you is making that distinction between giving up and surrender. Giving up is easy, surrender's simple, as you say. The giving up is like, ah, whatever, I'm done with this, right? I am gonna eat the Cheerios and watch reality TV. And maybe there's even a time for that as well. I don't want to pathologize comfort, but at the same time, realizing that I'm surrendering to what is to make room for something greater. And doesn't that align perfectly when we talk about with minimalism? How about you, listeners? What's the difference between surrendering and giving up? Let us know your thoughts in the comments on YouTube or Patreon. All right, let's uncover a minimal maxim here. I already gave you mine earlier.

• 35:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox for free if you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. I also write a new essay over there every week, a bit of a minimalist insight or observation or minimalist tip on how to live more simply. You can find that at theminimalists.com. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we will start your week off with a dose of simplicity. All right, give me something pithy, TK. What's the difference between surrendering and giving up?

• 36:18Speaker 03

  Surrender feels like acceptance. Giving up feels like apathy. I'm really big on getting back into the body and checking in with how thoughts feel. For instance, if I say,

• 36:34Speaker 03

  I don't have any money. I never have any money. Don't analyze it with your mind, but how does that feel? Where does that land? Where does that sit?

• 36:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Where is the tension? Do I feel my shoulders? Is my heart beating a bit faster? My hands sweating?

• 36:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me, I don't feel loose when I say that. If I say, I don't have any money. I never have any money. I feel tight, feel shortness of breath. But what if I say, I don't have any money right now, but I think there are some things I can learn that will cause me to earn more money in the future. Boy, wouldn't it be nice if I had more money? If I had more money, I would have more freedom. Oh, I like the thought of that. Now, how does that feel? I'm dreaming. I can feel my heart opening up a little bit. You know, I can feel that energy here, right? It's similar with surrender and apathy. If you find yourself saying something like, you know what, man? I'm done with people. I'm done with people. Every time I do something, I'm done. I'm done helping other people out because nobody else.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  Everybody just thinks about themselves.

• 37:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Did you tap my phone this week?

• 37:38Speaker 03

  Channeling something.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  I mean, man, how does that feel? That feels like frustration. That feels like resentment. I'm giving up, but I don't like the fact that I'm giving up. And I'm still clinging. I'm giving up, but I haven't let go. I'm still holding on to it and I resent the world for being the way it is because it's forcing me to bend the knee like a bully that I don't respect. I don't like that. You can feel that. You don't have to analyze it. On the other hand, what if you say,

• 38:07Speaker 03

  man, I really thought that would work. I really thought that was the way to go. But it looks like life is calling me to move in a different way. I can roll with that. That's happened before. I'm open to it. That doesn't feel like yay, but it feels like relief.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  You know what? It actually feels good to just kind of let that go and kind of move on and pursue something different. That feels like relief. That feels like peace. And so sometimes you can get caught up in the semantics. You can get caught up in the conceptual distinctions. But if you just say that thought you're thinking a few times and just feel where it lands in your body, you'll know if that's resistance or release.

• 38:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You reminded me of this distinction that Ram Dass used to talk to people about. He would never tell his students, relax, because the word feels like, I'm gonna, as soon as you say relax, I'm gonna get defensive, I'm gonna tighten up. But the word soften is like that full body sigh. It's the tension that you're expressing, all in one word. And relax is not a word that is very relaxing at all. It's accusatory almost. But soften is just, and I catch myself all the time when there's something like that, I'll just say soften. Sometimes I even say it out loud, soften, and I can feel my body just, huh. All right, that's almost the end of page one. We

• 39:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  still have a bunch of callers to talk to. But first, real quick for our Right Here, Right Now segment, here's one thing. Actually, I got two things for you going on in the life of the Minimalists. First off, the final stop of the Minimalism 2026 Tour is this weekend on June 6 in Missoula, Montana. Me and Nicodemus, we announced it when Nicodemus was back on the show a couple of weeks ago, and how beautiful that was. And he's opening a restaurant in Missoula, Montana. So our co-founder of The Minimalists, he's opening a Mediterranean restaurant, Nicodemus, go figure, right? And he's, and it's opening that weekend. We're doing a special event there. But we're gonna do a screening of our first documentary, Minimalism, which came out on Netflix a decade ago this year. And so we've been taking out on tour.

• 40:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We've had a bunch of people show up at these events doing a screening. We do a live talk, audience Q and A, meet and greet, a bunch of hugs, consensual hugs afterward. And feel free to come on out, theminimalists.com/tour if you want to grab a ticket. I think there are still a few tickets left. That is on June 6th, and it's a matinee show that day. So we'll see you there in Missoula, Montana. Also, congratulations TK. Emotional Clutter, TK's book is now available as a paperback as well. So you can get it in paperback, audiobook, or as an ebook on a Kindle or wherever you else you get ebooks. You can find the details of that over the books page at theminimalists.com. Congratulations, my friend.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  Thank you, man. And I also have something to work on. I got some constructive feedback by way of Instagram DM on the audiobook. Someone says, can you please work on your ability to differentiate filling from feeling? F I L L I N G versus F E E L I N G. Says, I enjoyed the book. It was great, but oh, that was a little annoying, a little distracting, they said. They were nicer. Said a little distracting. So you gotta help me with that, man. That's a revelation for me. I never knew the, what is it? The, the, what's the word for it? Is it phonetic? No, no, no. Enunciation, the distinction there. But I always just say filling. You know,

• 41:45Speaker 03

  we have all kinds of fillings, but you know, we don't all have fillings.

• 41:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  My brother used to say alien instead of alien and pillow instead of pillow. So I totally get it.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Feelings.

• 41:56Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I think you're totally fine with filling. I know what you're saying, man.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  If I go she before filling, then I'll get it feelings.

• 42:04Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Check out Emotional Clutter. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Wherever you get books, or ebooks, or audiobooks. I really enjoyed the audiobook for Emotional Clutter, because we also recorded a little podcast between each chapter. And so TK and I basically had a conversation. We decamp from the chapter for a moment, and we were able to discuss that together. So Emotional Clutter, you can find it now as a paperback as well. Much more coming up, but first here is a minimalist tip from one of our listeners.

• 42:32Speaker 06

  Hello minimalists. This is Denise calling from Massachusetts to share my minimal maxim regarding worry. I don't believe that anyone really prays for something bad to happen, but rather when we worry, we assume and imagine that something bad will happen. So here's my minimal maxim. Worry is a waste of the imagination. That is, using your imagination to picture something bad happening is wasteful. The unspoken corollary being that your imagination could be used for something creative and more positive. Thanks for all you do. Bye.

• 43:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Denise, thank you for that insightful distinction here. So one of our maxims is to worry is to pray for something bad to happen. And I don't mean it literally, I mean it functionally, like to worry about this over and over, to continue to ruminate about something, about some imaginary future. But I will, I appreciate Denise's distinction here. Worry is a waste of the imagination. And I will complement your maxim with a maxim of my own here Denise. Optimism requires imagination. Pessimism recycles fear. It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently is why it's so easy to be pessimistic and dismissive is because it doesn't require any sort of imagination. You know, when you're

• 43:52Joshua Fields Millburn?

  a kid and you build something really beautiful out of Legos and then someone can come in and just topple it in three seconds? That didn't require any imagination. It just required a desire to destroy something. And I think that's kind of what pessimism does. Optimism means I need to also think about possible outcomes that I can't currently see. So it requires some bit of creativity in order to be optimistic. Pessimism doesn't require any of that creativity. It just requires some sort of fear. Koo, do you have any thoughts on optimism? Because you strike me as a hyper optimistic person, but it doesn't seem like blind optimism either.

• 44:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I am an optimistic person overall. But I would say, I don't know if I'm an optimistic person in reality. I'm not a pessimistic person in reality. I

• 44:45Speaker 05

  I don't see the glass as half full or half empty. I just kind of have learned to see it as it is. So if anything, I'm more of a realist where I look at something as it is and embrace it as it is because then I can work with it as it is. Then I can adapt myself, change myself, change the situation. And so I think in order to be able to transform or change anything, you have to be in total acceptance of it.

• 45:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Wow.

• 45:17Speaker 05

  The thing I would say about optimism and why it sometimes scares us is because it requires an openness.

• 45:28Speaker 05

  To be truly optimistic is a form of letting go of control because you're opening yourself to life and many other possibilities, which can feel scary. When you're in pessimism, it's a form of protection. It's a form of control because if I'm going to be pessimistic, which doesn't feel great, doesn't feel alive, but at least I have some control of the level of potential pain I might experience by opening myself to my vision, my purpose, my goal, my dream, love again, and then get heartbroken again and who knows what might happen. But if I'm like, life is shit, life sucks, everything's horrible,

• 46:13Speaker 05

  then it's painful, but I kind of have some control of the degree to which I can be hurt in the future.

• 46:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And you have a level of certainty there too. I know that life sucks. I'm certain that life sucks and that gives me a unfortunate sort of confidence.

• 46:27Speaker 05

  So I think if we can not judge our pessimism, but even understand where it's coming from, which is self-protection.

• 46:34Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  And be aware of that and have a level of compassion for likely the part of us that has been open before, maybe in childhood or when we were 15 or in a past relationship, and use that as a flashlight to bring attention to perhaps the part of us that is needing some love, the part of us that is needing some compassion and healing. Then I think our pessimism serves a

• 47:03Speaker 05

  Positive function more than anything.

• 47:05Joshua Fields Millburn?

  As soon as you see it.

• 47:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, when we can be aware of it.

• 47:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Denise, thank you so much for your distinction there. Appreciate the message. For anyone else has a listener tip for the show, send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on a future episode. Up next, page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick panticulation break. We'll be right back.

• 47:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that is the first 33% of episode 541. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal edition with Coop Blackson, which includes answers to a bunch more questions like this question from Maggie. She's a new mother with big dreams, a busy farm life, and minimalist aspirations. And she wants to know how to find peace in the messy middle when life can't be simplified all at once. Also, she said she wants to eat my lunch, but we'll get to that on page two. Whitney wants to know whether there's a healthy form of clinging in adulthood, especially when it comes to human connection, relationships, and emotional attachment. We're going to talk about the difference between clinging and attachment and holding on and so much more.

• 48:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And also, Jessica is wondering what to do when everyone in her house has a different relationship with clutter. Plus, a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our podcast archives, all the way back to the very first episode of this podcast. Big thanks to Coop Blackson for joining us today. You can check out his latest book. It is called The Magic of Surrender. You can also find him at coopblackson.com and on Instagram. We'll put a link to all of that in the show notes. And that is our minimal episode for today.

• 48:55Joshua Fields Millburn?

  On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D., and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Millburn. If you leave here today with just one message, let it be this.

• 49:11Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Love people and use things. Because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Keep it simple.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.