Steph’s Last Ride, Philly’s Swoon and Bill’s ‘SNL 50’ GOAT Lists | with Rob Mahoney

The Ringer's Bill Simmons and Rob Mahoney take a long look at the NBA's Western Conference before the All-Star break, including the new-look Warriors, likely WCF teams, the curious Mavericks, and more. Then, they open an NBA six-pack of topics, including the disappointing 76ers, first-round draft pick chaos, the confounding Bulls, and a potentially dim future for the Suns (3:50). Finally, in honor of 'SNL50', Bill reads an essay about his love for 'Saturday Night Live', his fantasy 'SNL' cast, all-time hosts, episodes, sketches, musical acts, and more (01:01:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Rob Mahoney Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat Order Michelob ULTRA today, available on Doordash! ENJOY RESPONSIBLY © 2025 ANHEUSER-BUSCH, MICHELOB ULTRA® LIGHT BEER, ST. LOUIS, MO. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. The NBA season hitting full stride. Don't miss your chance to win some money with America's number one sportsbook. I mean, post-trade deadline. We had one of the craziest trade deadlines we've ever had in the history of the league. We have Fox on San Antonio, Luka on the Lakers, Kuzma on the Bucks, kidding. The Cavs got better, so you have a chance to get all these new look teams and maybe just ride Luka and his point over in the Lakers to win as a parlay over and over again as he gets vengeance on the Mavericks. Bet on fun markets like live quarter player props and parlays. Enjoy our new NBA Player Prop pages. The app is safe and secure and easy to use, and when you win, you'll get paid instantly.

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

  So, download the app today. Bet with FanDuel, an official partner of the NBA. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. We added a new podcast to The Ringer Podcast Network and Spotify. It is Good Hang with Amy Poehler. She's great. It's gonna be a huge, big, fat, awesome podcast. Subscribe, follow on Spotify. Premiers next week. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun?

• 1:29Bill Simmons?

  With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables in honor of SNL 50. We did The Blues Brothers, me, Chris Ryan, and Sean Finacy. It was a podcast you can watch as well on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. Started next week. Video podcasts on Spotify of the rewatchables. Everyone going forward, you'll be able to watch on the Spotify platform. We're doing another SNL movie next week.

• 2:14Bill Simmons?

  I might even spoil it at the end of this podcast. So you can stay tuned for that one. Please check out the ringer.com because we have a bunch of good content this week, including some really good SNL stuff. We have a fun NBA project coming next week. So stay tuned for that as well. And then the big news for the Ringer Podcast Network, starting this week, starting Sunday night, White Lotus is starting on HBO. Last year, Joanne, or last season, Joanne Robinson and I, we did the recaps of White Lotus, season two, and I think we might've done season one, too. I can't remember. Anyway, season two, we did. We added Mallory Rubin this season. White Lotus will end on HBO.

• 2:56Bill Simmons?

  We will be putting our podcast up as a video podcast on Spotify on the Prestige TV Pod, and you can watch it on the ringer-tv YouTube channel as well. Our recaps, and then on Wednesday, as Rob Mahoney and Joanne Robinson will have the precaps for Prestige. They're also covering Severance on the Prestige TV Pod as well. So very excited. We love White Lotus, one of our favorite shows since we've had Grantland and the Ringer. We're talking since 2011. This is one of the OGs, one of the most fun TV shows to talk about. So anyway, that's coming on the Prestige TV Pod. Coming on this podcast, I'm going to talk to Rob Mahoney, actually, about what's going on in the West, what's up with the Warriors, can they turn it around? And we're going to open an NBA six-pack.

• 3:39Bill Simmons?

  And then I had a whole SNL 50 thing I wanted to do about my favorite sketches, episodes, characters, musical performances. It all makes sense when you listen to it. That's at the tail end of this pod. My fingers actually worked. I wrote some stuff. So there you go. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 4:19Bill Simmons?

  All right, Rob Mahoney is here. We are taping this part of the podcast late on Thursday night, 8:00 PM PT. Just watched a bunch of basketball and it tied into what I want to talk about with you, the, uh, the West. We're going to start with. You Golden State win today. You Dallas hold on and win. You Minnesota beat OKC and then you look at the West and you have all these teams jammed together. Golden State's the 10 seed with 27 losses. Minnesota's the 7 seed with 25 losses. I'm the most interested in the Warriors and I've watched every minute of all of their games since they made this Jimmy Butler trade and there's something here and I don't know what it is yet, but I like it. I don't know where it's going to go. Their ceiling feels

• 5:03Bill Simmons?

  a little higher. I don't think they're going to win the title, but they're the most intriguing team to me. That's not Denver. The Lakers are obviously OKC. I think they're the fourth most intriguing team to me, Rob.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Okay. Uh, can I suggest what the thing is that you might be seeing?

• 5:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let's see.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  I would say two things, maybe. Golden State actually shooting free throws. Great. Jimmy Butler helps with that. Two, something very exotic for the Warriors, attempting to score around the basket and sometimes doing so successfully. Like they, they blow a lot of layups. They, they have a lot of guys who clam up a little bit around the basket or can get stifled out with length. They obviously play really small, but having Jimmy as any kind of presence inside, even if he's also missing some layups now and again, just as a cutter, as a driver, as a transition force. It's a nice counterbalance to everything else that the Warriors have going on offensively.

• 5:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it feels like I rounded them out. I also, like you mentioned the rebounding, the offensive rebounding.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:00Bill Simmons?

  The free throws. That game yesterday that they played against Dallas where it basically came down to Moody makes a corner three, I think they win. If Jimmy just goes to the basket with his right hand instead of crossing over going to Kyrie, they might win that one too. But the symmetry of the team seems to make sense now because Jimmy, even though, what, what is he, 6'5", 6'6"?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I think he's more 6'7", 6'8" range.

• 6:20Bill Simmons?

  All right, wherever he is. There's a post-up element with them that they just didn't have before unless it was Kaminga. And when it's Kaminga, you lose some of the IQ stuff. With Butler, you don't. You get the IQ stuff. So now you have him with Draymond, with Steph. And it's funny to call them a high IQ team because they also make some of the stupidest plays you'll see every night. I don't think any team has sloppier, worse turnovers, and yet they are a high IQ team.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Like, Steve Kerr is about to have an aneurysm at any given moment in these games. And you get it, like, some of the passes Draymond throws for being a genius-level playmaker are absolutely baffling, indefensible decision-making at times. And yet, they get away with it because they have these hot-shooting stretches. Their defense gets obviously still pretty rock-solid overall, and I think will only get better with Jimmy. But ultimately, I'm totally with you as far as the post-up elements of Jimmy's game. He's so intuitive in terms of the way he moves. That has fit in Golden State really seamlessly. And he also, just in staggering him and Steph a little bit, it gives the Warriors something to do. And like, they were really lacking that when Steph was off the floor. It's like, what do we run? I guess Brandon Pajemski is gonna dribble

• 7:28Speaker 01

  for 18 seconds. There was way too much of that happening. And Jimmy Butler, if nothing else, orients them to, okay, this is a, this is an actual first option, even if he's not pounding the air out of the ball.

• 7:39Bill Simmons?

  It's also a team that, when Kaminga comes back, becomes even more interesting because now they'll have multiple things to look at. They can ride him. There's some Butler/Kaminga stuff already. I don't know if you've seen it. Little hint of, I might take this guy under my wing.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  Little mutual admiration society stuff. Maybe, maybe I'll take him to Jimmy Butler grad school. Not teach him the stuff from the last year in Miami, but the, the first couple of years. One of the things that's been so much fun to watch with these Golden State games is just having Butler back as an invested, happy, engaged guy on the sidelines doing like fist bumps, just super competitive aggro and not looking like he just lost his dog. And that he wants to just walk off the court. So I'm glad to have him back.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, even in the game. So Jimmy Butler is one of the best contested rebounders in the league in terms of just the overall effort he puts in and how he goes after it, even against bigs. And if we're going to talk about like how Golden State makes a run or how they hold it together, how they challenge some of these other elite Western Conference teams. A big part of that is Jimmy Butler makes the version of small ball they play make a lot more sense. Moses Moody has been a thing for a while now, but the Moses Moody minutes make even more sense when you put him with Jimmy Butler. Kuminga is going to be a little different just because they are a little bit duplicative. They're going to be a little trickier to play together, especially if Draymond is also on the floor. Like that's, that's a, it can jam up a little bit too much. And I'm curious to see what Kerr does with that, how he tries to separate those guys, if at all,

• 9:10Speaker 01

  in the rotation because they're gonna have to play a lot.

• 9:13Bill Simmons?

  And Dallas in the first half of last night's game tried to use the Draymond Jimmy lack of shooting from deep thing against them. And then Golden State figured that out. They went with the small ball thing. Dallas didn't have their centers last night, so it's hard to make too much out of it, but they went small. I guess Jimmy was the, was the four. And then they had Moody and Pizemski and Curry with Draymond. And it was fun. They were like hustling around and it was old school Draymond. Here's the thing I'm watching with them. And I've been watching this for a while. And I really started thinking about it with the Ringer 100, with that exercise of just trying to rank the best players against each other. And Curry was just a blind top seven, top eight guy. I'm not positive he's there anymore. And I don't know

• 9:55Bill Simmons?

  where he is in the top 20, but that, the, there's two things I've noticed. One is the consistency of being great just doesn't seem there. He's become a once a week, I'm awesome guy.

• 10:08Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't have the great kick ass games that he used to have.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:12Bill Simmons?

  And I actually went through and I was, I just looked at two things because this is hard to kind of quantify. How do you, how do you measure somebody's ceiling as a great player versus where it's been the last 10 years? He's 36 years old. You can look at all the counting stats. They're down a little bit, but not like too much. But the thing that was interesting to me. So in 2016, his second MVP season, he had 13 40 plus point games. And then if you go on basketball reference, that weird game score thing they have that I think I mostly like, it's at least.

• 10:46Bill Simmons?

  It's something. You know, if you're in the high twenties or higher, that means something good happened with the game you played.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  It's like the PER of box score stats, right? It gives you a general indication that something is up.

• 11:00Bill Simmons?

  It's that you did a bunch of things well in the same game at, and kind of an unusually high level. So about 29 is a really nice game score in basketball. Again, arbitrary. But he had 24, 29 plus games from a game score standpoint in 16. This season, he has three. This season, he has zero 40-point games. So even if you go back to 2022, he had seven 40-point games in their final season. He had, he had 10 29-plus game score games. In 23, he had 13 29-plus game score. The point is, like, every once in a while, Steph Curry was like, "We're not losing tonight. I'm Steph Curry. I'm just gonna have an awesome game." And that's really not what I'm seeing from him in the same way this year. And I

• 11:44Bill Simmons?

  wonder if it changes after the All-Star break, or is this just who he is at age 36? I don't know the answer. What do you think?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  I suspect having Jimmy will help with some of that. And just from an overall workload perspective, Jimmy and Kuminga coming back will lift some of what is on Steph right now. Ultimately, though, I think that is who he is at this point in his career. I don't think he's gonna have those singular scoring outbursts all the time. But the good news for Golden State, I don't think the rest of the league has entirely caught up to that. I don't think they will catch up to that because history tells us they don't with legends, right? Like, you put Steph Curry on the floor, someone sees him, they're gonna freak out. And that's why, virtually regardless of how many points Steph actually scores, he has a massive, massive on-court impact in terms of the offensive production. Like, he is not at a Jokic level

• 12:35Speaker 01

  because Jokic is really in a class unto, like, unto himself there, but with Shay, right? Like, with the other really high-level offensive operators in terms of the difference of having him on the court, even when he's not hitting consistently, even when he's not going for 35 or 40 points, he just scares the hell out of people. I think that part will always be true, even if Steph is 45 rolling out there.

• 12:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if you're saying what defender makes a guy who's in the paint who realizes he's open run full speed at him like he's running out of a cabin in a horror movie, Steph is still number one in this. The other piece of it is, they had to work so hard to get him offense in the first half of the season.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  With this goofy team they had. And he also had to play a lot because their record wasn't that good. And I do wonder with the reset of the break and then the Jimmy piece of it and the symmetry of the offense coming into play a little bit and then Kaminga comes back, maybe it'll be easier for him to, to, to rack it up and have, the thing that would make him special were like the 16-point third quarters and just the little scoring barrages. That's what's not happening anymore. And then you throw in the sloppiness, like their clutch record this year, I think they're just like 500.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  And they've, they've blown a, a bunch of dumb games.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  And by volume, they've just been in a lot of close games, which that in itself, as you're saying, is taxing because it forces Steph to play more minutes even gets to that point.

• 13:56Bill Simmons?

  The reason I think it's important, and I'm not doing the ESPN thing where it's like just A-block, just talk Warriors or Lakers and that's it. That's the rule. I really do think there's something here. I think there's something here with the Butler, Curry, Draymond thing. I kind of like their role guys. And I think if they can hang around, hang around, hang around, there's a competitive, kind of intuitive infrastructure that some of these other teams don't have. Like, I don't trust Houston to have it. Memphis, I don't know what to make of anymore. I just assume Ja's not playing now when I turn Memphis on. It's like surprising to see him. It's one thing after another with him. And then Minnesota's a mess. I don't try, especially when Edwards has, Edwards has had two like

• 14:40Bill Simmons?

  really, really, really awful games around. They did win tonight. They beat OKC. But just, I don't, maybe Minnesota would be the only one I see that I could see in the conference finals. I don't think it's gonna be Dallas. OKC, Denver, is there anybody else you have on your radar to maybe make the West Finals and do like what Dallas did last year? Dallas catches fire. They have that streak. All of a sudden they're in conversation. Who is that this year?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  I still give Memphis a little credit in that conversation. I, I think we'll, we clearly have to wait and see what the Lakers are capable of. But at this point, Denver's got the inside track. And teams are gonna have to figure out not just how to outflank them, but how to beat them specifically if that matchup comes on board, which is, I would say, the toughest single matchup available to anyone is what do you do with Nikola Jokic right now? Because we're seeing Minnesota, case in point tonight, OKC is a vaunted unbelievable defense, but Minnesota like has some inroads there to score against a team like that. Nas Reed is clearly a huge part of that formula. Granted, like they're not playing with their usual team, Julius Randall out, Rudy Gobert out, Mike Conley, Dante DiVincenzo, and yet.

• 15:45Bill Simmons?

  And Gobert didn't play tonight either.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely. They didn't have the ability, like, they didn't have their normal set of players, but they found things that could work against the Thunder defense for as wonderful as it is. I don't know that there's those answers for many teams about Nikola Jokic. There's just not a lot of conceptual stuff you can throw at him that's going to work. That's not to say you can't leverage the occasional off night from Jamal Murray, elements of Russell Westbrook's game, parts of the back end of the rotation, Michael Porter, maybe not swinging the ball as fast as the Nuggets might like him to sometimes. Like, there's, there's buttons to press. The Nuggets are not unbeatable, but they look really tough right now. And they look like a really tough matchup specifically for the rest of this Western Conference field.

• 16:25Bill Simmons?

  Murray came back.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  With a vengeance.

• 16:28Bill Simmons?

  Russell and I did that live show in Denver.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Fifty-five fucking points.

• 16:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we had like, we had like a heart to heart with 1,100 Nuggets fans. Like this, Murray thing is bad. Like you guys, this is alarming what's happening. But the best case scenario was, ah, he just needs to play himself in shape.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 16:43Bill Simmons?

  And he did. He played himself in shape and he, he looked noticeably skinnier within three weeks. His burst came back. The 55-point game he had this week was not an aberration. Like, he's been blowing by people and looked like Murray. So now all of a sudden, those Jokic 48-point games, like, those are out the window. You don't need them anymore. Now he's back to being the, by the end of the third quarter, he's got 22, 12, 9. Porter's also playing better. They just look like the Nuggets again. So, I don't know, people, like, this podcast, for instance, maybe, uh, maybe overreacting through the first two months, but the Murray thing was, the Murray thing was scary because the Paul George thing was also scary. And guess what? That continues to be completely terrifying. So, you know,

• 17:28Bill Simmons?

  there was real signs of danger, but Murray played himself out of it, to his credit.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  The Paul George thing is bordering on reanimated corpse at this point and Jamal Murray has found some kind of life, some kind of burst. And I think most importantly, the edge and the aggressiveness in his game. That's always, when Jamal is feeling whatever injuries he has at a given point, or just a shaken confidence, he doesn't push in the way that the Nuggets absolutely need him to push. And to see that version of Jamal Murray back, that's a thrilling thing to see.

• 17:57Bill Simmons?

  So, right now, we have OKC, Memphis, Denver as the top three. Denver threatening to pass Memphis. Houston Lakers, and Houston just, you know, has not been good for a couple of weeks, but they've had some injuries. Lakers, I don't know what happens with them. 32 and 20. Clippers, 30 and 23 have been confusing for about a month now.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  They're fine.

• 18:21Bill Simmons?

  And then we move into that Minnesota, Dallas, Sacramento, Golden State thing. And we were talking about it when we do the NBA six pack. The most notable thing is the Spurs feel like they've fallen out. And I think Phoenix is not dead, but people are definitely around the table like Jon Hamm and Landman. They're definitely around the hospital bed. And maybe the doctors, like, you might want to say your goodbye soon. They're almost at that point. But it feels like we actually might know the 10 playoff teams now. Unless you think Sacramento can fall out of this, because like they had a bad loss with New Orleans tonight. They've, they've won some goofy games. They're 20 and 27. They honestly could be like 22 and 34. So if Phoenix was going to catch a team, that would be the

• 19:05Bill Simmons?

  team I pick. But what do you think? Do we have our 10 now?

• 19:09Speaker 01

  I think this might be the 10. And that is somewhat confidence in the Kings, more so pessimism in the Suns on my part.

• 19:17Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Confidence in the Kings.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  I mean, mild confidence. I think they've got some stuff to work with. Like, I think they have a reasonable play-in level roster as currently constructed.

• 19:28Bill Simmons?

  I agree.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And there's nothing wrong with that, but there's a reason we're not going to be talking about them in the vein that we're talking about Golden State, which is to say an actual threat potentially to do something with the talent that they have. We were talking about this on group chat today, too. I don't know if it's the Jimmy Butler element specifically that makes Golden State feel like a wild card in the same way that his Heat teams felt like a little bit of a wild card. It's just hard to write off and it's hard to write off looking at this Golden State rotation and thinking, okay, you know what, like when it really matters, the Pat Spencer minutes are going to evaporate and the Quinn post minutes are going to evaporate if they have to. Like they're going to get what they need out of these supporting guys, but their best players are going to go the distance. And the question at that point will be, how hard did Steph and Draymond

• 20:10Speaker 01

  and Jimmy have to push to get them into the play in or to get them into the playoff? And will they have enough left from that point?

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  You made a point earlier about Minnesota and how something about them seems comfortable against OKC, which is something you couldn't really say about a lot of teams. I think that might be just a lot of length on the perimeter and interchangeable guys and just people to throw at SGA. Today was the recipe for how you beat OKC in a playoff series where, one, SGA doesn't have a good game.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:41Bill Simmons?

  And then, two, they don't make a ton of threes. And, you know, it is a team, and I guess you could say this about any team in the league, but I really feel with them when they're down like 12 and you go, I mean, this is it. This is how you beat them. And then they win like their next 13 by an average of 20 points a game. But they can have that, you know, you can hit them with the haymakers. So when they, if they're down 3-2 in a playoff series on the road in a game like today, that's would be the recipe, I think. I still don't 100% trust anyone else on their team offensively except SGA. And that, that's the one thing that gives me pause with like, just pencil them in. Like they have the best odds to win the West and it's an easy pick for the finals. But that's the one thing

• 21:26Bill Simmons?

  that makes me nervous when it's really nerve wracking gut, gut crunch time.

• 21:33Bill Simmons?

  Ball crunch time?

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Gut crunch? Nut crunch, I think is the expression.

• 21:37Bill Simmons?

  Did I just invent the phrase gut crunch?

• 21:38Speaker 01

  The gut crunch, the old gut crunch.

• 21:40Bill Simmons?

  Who, who am I going to if like Shay has five fouls late in the third quarter and I just need somebody to get me offense for like six minutes? That's what makes me nervous with them.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  The answer is probably J Dub and that's a reasonable answer, but he also doesn't exactly play that way all the time. Like they are such a process oriented team where they're just going to move it and go through their system and trust in the shots that they get. And I think reasonable people can disagree as to whether those shots are ultimately what you need in now TM gut crunching time.

• 22:11Bill Simmons?

  I think gut crunch.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Look, they, they clearly need a little bit more as evidenced by the fact that they can occasionally put up like a 14 point fourth quarter like they did against Minnesota today. That's not gonna do it, even in a game like this where you have a bit of a deficit you're working back from to begin with. It's an area where you hope over time J Dub grows into that responsibility. Chet Holmgren, who I think played his third game since coming back from injury tonight, he will grow into that responsibility over time. Hopefully he looks quite rusty understandably right now. So he's going to get better and better over the back part of the season, but that's the wild card with them. And I think if they don't do as well in the playoffs as they would have liked, or as many of us would have anticipated, a lot of us are going to be wondering, was there a lever to pull there in terms of getting

• 22:55Speaker 01

  more of a spark plug scorer at the deadline? Not someone who has to be a part of your permanent, like a fixture in Oklahoma City, a pillar of the community, but could you not get a guy who could get a bucket on demand when you maybe really needed it?

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  We talked about it a little last week. I'm in the camp, they're playing so well and they look so good. And Wiggins especially, that was the spot you would have improved, but he was just playing really well, you know, and it's like-

• 23:18Speaker 01

  He was balling out, he was scoring in bunches.

• 23:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So, all right, we trade Wiggins and contracts and a few of our picks to try to get Deandre Hunter. Are we even better? Wiggins was playing really well.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:29Bill Simmons?

  Would you rather pay Wiggins like a much smaller contract or Hunter 18 million year? I can see why they- They just, they, they always value the continuity. And it's one of those things that if it's in May and they lose in round two, we're gonna be like, why didn't they make a trade? I told you.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  But you're right, like, it's hard to look at a roster winning 80% of its games and being like, yeah, you should have done something. Like, they're doing a lot every night to beat basically every opponent put in front of them.

• 23:53Bill Simmons?

  And a close team, too, that really seems like, that's, that's where, even the Cavs messing with what they have, it gets a little dangerous when you have a team that like clearly likes each other.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 24:04Bill Simmons?

  Dallas is the only other, other team, just quickly. Who knows when Davis comes back? The way Kyrie has played and kind of, I, I mean, this is like one of the great 180s we've had by an athlete, Kyrie the last two years, where I think he senses the moment in the city of Dallas and the press conferences, the, the interviews that he's given, the way he's played, where he's like, no, no, I got this, come, come over here, like, don't, don't abandon the ship yet.

• 24:35Bill Simmons?

  If they can get Davis back in time, I don't know if they can, but if they, if they can, it is an interesting team. You know, they have size, they have length, they have defense, and the fans who seem like they were gonna revolt against this team even three days ago, like, I don't know, they were into the game today, they were cheering those guys and, uh, you know, I, so they're kind of, I guess, over here on the side, depending on where they land. Right now, they are 30 and 26, but no Davis for at least a month. So they'll be somewhere between eight to, eight to 10, I would say, in the play-in, right?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  I would think, and look, the win over Golden State yesterday, massive, massive game in terms of playing implications, but yeah, they need Davis back, and more importantly, they just need a big, a, a single able-bodied big who is not OMAX Prosper on stilts. Like, they just need somebody in that spot to do big man things. And credit to them for getting by the way they have, credit to them for winning tonight, not only under the circumstances, missing all these bigs, missing Anthony Davis, but Kyrie didn't play in this game either, but his spirit lived on in Dante Exum, and they beat the Heat, and Dallas just kind of keeps on marching right now. It's been, it's been very impressive to see the way they've rallied.

• 25:44Bill Simmons?

  They beat a Heat team that just looks mediocre every night now.

• 25:48Bill Simmons?

  It just looks like it's the, uh, the end of the line. I, I'm thinking about the gut crunch, it's like a 90s exercise machine.

• 25:57Bill Simmons?

  Like I'm doing, I'm doing ads for it.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:59Bill Simmons?

  The gut crunch right now. Call now. It's half off. Uh, we're going to take a break and then we're going to rip off an NBA six pack. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer and the ultimate trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. Michelob Ultra crisp, refreshing, only 95 calories. A superior light beer. No matter the game, sport or season, superior is worth playing for. Always be prepared for a win and order Michelob Ultra today. Available on DoorDash, by the way. Enjoy responsibly. 2025 Anheuser-Busch Michelob Ultra Light Beer. St. Louis, Missouri. Must be 21 plus to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets. All right, Rob, it's time.

• 26:43Bill Simmons?

  It's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by Michelob Ultra. A superior light beer. And not just because it's great tasting. Michelob Ultra is also getting fans closer to the game with Ultra Courtside. It lets you sign up for a chance to win signed merch, courtside seats and other one of a kind experiences. Wish one of them was go out with Big Waz for the night in LA. Just visit michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra, superior is worth paying for. Speaking of superior, let's unpack six major things going on in the basketball world right now. We have to start with the 76ers. So I was thinking big splash teams in the last 25 years that just ended up being disappointing.

• 27:28Bill Simmons?

  Going back to post lockout, the 1999 Rockets.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:31Bill Simmons?

  When they put Barkley and Pippen and Hakeem together and they were like, look at this. And then it was bad.

• 27:39Bill Simmons?

  Uh, the 2004 Lakers, even though they made the finals, that was still kind of disappointing the way it ended. But the, the big ones, 2013 Lakers with Dwight and with Nash.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Now this is gonna be fun.

• 27:51Bill Simmons?

  Not fun.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Very fun.

• 27:53Bill Simmons?

  The the Prokhorov Nets post KG trade with Pierce and Joe Johnson and Darren Williams and Prokhorov just he's oh my God, he's gonna basically do what the Dodgers just did in baseball. It didn't happen. 2019 Celtics after they made the Eastern Finals without Kyrie. Kyrie came back. Hayward came back. Tatum, Jaylen Brown. I think I went on Jaylen and Jacoby's ESPN show and predicted them to win in the mid 60s. That did not happen. The 22 Lakers with LeBron and AD and a new addition, Russell Westbrook.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:26Bill Simmons?

  They ended up winning 33 games. And then the the Nets after the foot on the line season.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 28:32Bill Simmons?

  The KD Kyrie Harden thing. Where does the Sixers just sucking? They're 20 and 34. Where does this rank on the I can't believe this is happening scale for you? Because there were some signs.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard because there are the precursors. I don't think any of us were fully trusting Joel Embiid's health coming into the season. Certainly, Paul George has given us reason to be dubious about his long-term ability to stay on the court. But I I would never have anticipated that basically every single thing that could go wrong has gone wrong. At all, every bright spot that has emerged in the rotation, short of Gershon Yabusele, which I'm not trying to jinx him, wrap him in bubble wrap, protect Gershon at all costs, please.

• 29:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Every other bright spot in the rotation has been snuffed out by injury, by circumstance, like, nothing is working. And that's hard, hard to predict clearly, but also hard to wrap your mind around, like, how so many things could go wrong at one time.

• 29:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so there were, there was some Paul George stuff that came out today from Shams that.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:35Bill Simmons?

  He had a screwed up finger tendon on his left hand. He's getting injections for it. I'm sure, I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't explain the fact that he looks just slower and more plodding and doesn't seem to have nearly the same burst and just seems like. Not only a step slow, but a second slow.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:59Bill Simmons?

  It is processing. And I don't know how that's the left hand tendon thing. I don't get it.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  I don't think it is. Yeah. I mean, we can kind of parse those things out because there is the step slow thing as well. Right? Like you're not getting past Zaire Williams against the Nets. That's a problem, right? That's a problem on a game, in a game where Joel Embiid is not playing, Tyrese Maxey is not playing. This is your moment to do some of this and you make one shot and worse, you attempt seven. Horrible, horrible game for Paul George. All of that said, I have found myself at many points in the season, being a bit of a Paul George apologist.

• 30:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  And I, look, those days are very much behind me at this point. But the case for that apology, the defense of Paul George throughout much, most of the season has been a defense of the little things that he brings to the table, right? It's orienting the offense. It's being an adult on the court when they've badly needed it. It's spacing the floor. It's keeping the ball moving, good connecting stuff, but role player stuff. And at some point, if you're doing all the role player stuff and you're failing every time you're asked to be a star, we have to call you what you are. And it's a $50 million role player. And that's a, a very tough position for the Sixers to find themselves at the very outset of this deal.

• 31:12Bill Simmons?

  He hasn't helped himself with some of the comments either.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:15Bill Simmons?

  Like when he complained about playing the five, he, there hasn't been a lot of, I'll do whatever it takes to win games. If they need me to play there, I'll play there. It's just, it, there's a lot of like basic, you have to look at how the outside world is looking at you stuff with him. That just seems to be missing.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  A Sixer should know never to say that they're bored doing something like playing the five because this life as a Sixer will be very interesting very quickly in ways that you do not want.

• 31:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, the biggest thing they got was the Eagles had a playoff run and won the Super Bowl.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  It's very true.

• 31:45Bill Simmons?

  And they, Curtis and I talked about it on Thursday, the, uh, this rarely seen Super Bowl news dump after they won. When they're like, hey, Embiid might get surgery again. I don't know where this is going.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Bill Simmons?

  And they just snuck that one out under the dead of night. But I think if, uh, if Philly had been knocked down around one, the Eagles, and then, you know, people really had a chance to stare at the Sixer season with the kind of season Maxey's having, where he's almost averaging 28 a game. Yabaselli, they really lucked out with that and they're still, they're 20 and 34. They're six and 14 in their last 20. In that last 20, they have the 23rd net rating. So they're just been a bottom eight team for, you know, a good 40% of the season here. They've only gotten 17 games from Embiid. And yet they're only a two, a game and a half behind Chicago for the 10th seed and Chicago doesn't want to keep winning. So they might, they might stumble in anyway.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  I, I don't know if Chicago wants to keep winning or not because their roster would tell you that they don't. Uh, the public comments would tell you that they are attempting to. So I, I really have no idea what to make of any of that other than the fact that, look, the playing crop in the East is an absolute joke. Like it is teams that are either too hurt to compete, don't have the resources to actually be good teams yet. Or in Philly's case, a little of both. Like they, they just are not in a competitive place by any stretch of the imagination. Quentin Grimes should not be your best player. Like that is not a thing that should be happening. Justin Edwards should not be playing 30 minutes in a game. That's not, that's not where the Sixers ever anticipated this going, but it's the reality that they now have to navigate.

• 33:18Bill Simmons?

  Orlando is 27 and 29 in the seventh seed and they haven't been happy with their team for two months.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:24Bill Simmons?

  Atlanta is 26 and 29. They're the eight seed. They made two like borderline dump trades. The Hunter trade and the Bogdanovich trade. Those are trades you make when, you don't care where your season is going. They can't really dump because they don't have their first round pick. But, uh, and then you have Miami at the nine seed, 25 and 28, who just like, you know, I think they'd be maybe the second worst team in the West. Would you, would you rather be Miami or Portland right now?

• 33:53Speaker 01

  Portland is tough because they are winning themselves out of the tank race at the moment.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Their future is tough. And, and we should say Philly's future in terms of their first round pick, which they may or may not be able to actually keep, is looking dicier by the minute. I, they have to be very careful. They don't accidentally lose that pick at this point.

• 34:13Bill Simmons?

  I want to audible to that as the second thing of the of the six pack. But before we do the the Embiid thing, do we see him again? He's played 17 games. Does he play 20?

• 34:24Speaker 01

  We should not see him again. Like tethered to this conversation, like they should be actively looking at shutting Paul George down, shutting Embiid down, managing these injuries over the back part of the season. It's time to regroup like this is not going to resolve itself. And even if you could limp into the play in and even limp into the playoffs, that is not a success for this version of this team. Like being an easy out in the first round is not success for the Sixers. So at this point, lean into like sear into the skid, lean into the failure. Live to fight another day, frankly.

• 34:57Bill Simmons?

  The problem is making the playoffs. Embiid could never play 14 games in four weeks. It's never happening. So even if you like miraculously won both playing games, I don't know where that's getting you. All right, the second thing you mentioned, the draft pick. OKC gets Phillies first after the top six. So Philly keeps it first six spots. If it's the seventh pick, OKC gets it. But this is one of many things. This is the all time, what the hell is happening in the first round thing?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  It's bat shit.

• 35:27Bill Simmons?

  It's it's either 15 or six. There's so many teams, there's a couple of things I can't even really figure out who gets to pick.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  So it's about half the league. OKC gets Phillies first after top six. They get Utah's first after the top, if it's out of the top 10, but Utah's probably going to keep that pick. Miami gets Golden State's first if it falls out of the top 10. I think that's probably happening. Atlanta gets Sacramento's first if it falls out of the top 12. Think that might happen. The Knicks get Detroit's first if it falls out of the top 13. I think that's happening. So we already have four teams that are going to give their pick to somebody else. OKC gets Miami's first.

• 36:08Bill Simmons?

  If they don't make the playoffs, basically. So that's 50 50. We'll see. Then we have San Antonio gets Atlanta's first, Utah gets Minnesota and Cleveland's first. The Pelicans get the Lakers first, Brooklyn gets New Orleans first, Milwaukee's first, and the Knicks first. I think that's right. Does Brooklyn get New Orleans first?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  I don't think they get New Orleans. I think they just get Milwaukee and Knicks.

• 36:31Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'm gonna take that one out. Brooklyn gets Milwaukee's first, the Knicks first. Keep in the air. Orlando gets Denver's first. And then we have this trade where OKC can swap and get the best pick from the Clips or Houston. Their choice.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:47Bill Simmons?

  Houston can take the second best pick and swap it to Brooklyn for Phoenix's first. Phoenix, Phoenix, I guess, loses the pick either way, and then the Clips get the worst of all of those. I'm gonna figure out that sequencing in about a month.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, we need a visual aid. We need somebody to come up with a flow chart.

• 37:06Bill Simmons?

  All of those picks I laid out, what is the most alarming to you for the team losing the pick?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Oh, great question.

• 37:12Bill Simmons?

  Atlanta?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  The Atlanta ones are bad because it dramatically changes how they navigate their roster, what they're doing for the foreseeable future. It's, on the one hand, I think it can be silly sometimes when teams like the Bulls, who were so protected, they were probably gonna keep their own pick anyway, go out of their way to trade to get their own pick back. It can be silly. But there is so much more freedom and flexibility as a franchise when you do own your own picks. Because the second they're out the door, the second you lose control of when you start the clock and when you start to rebuild and when you start to reboot. And that's how you get into these weird lost seasons where you're sort of languishing either in the middle of the standings or just outside the play-in, accomplishing basically nothing, but also losing lots of games and not getting any draft capital to result from it.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  The Atlanta ones feel really, really rough right now.

• 38:01Bill Simmons?

  One thing I was thinking with all the OKC things in play, let's say they get the seventh pick from Philly.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:08Bill Simmons?

  And let's say they get Miami's pick because Miami's a playoff team and then they have their own pick.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:13Bill Simmons?

  And then they can also swap with the Clippers or Houston. So that's a middle. So they'll have four picks.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  They'll have three. They'll have their own.

• 38:20Bill Simmons?

  Three. Oh yeah. You're right.

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:22Bill Simmons?

  Three, including Philly's pick, which could be in the seven, eight, nine range.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:27Bill Simmons?

  But then they have all these other picks because they have a million kajillion picks.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:31Bill Simmons?

  And we've been watching this going, what are they going to do with all these picks? They already like their roster. They only have a couple of spots anyway. Could this be the year that they take that seventh, eighth, ninth Philly pick, if that's the pick? Add like eight picks to it and just say, give us Cooper flag. Here's the all time mother lode of picks. Like, let's say Charlotte gets the first pick. And they could just trade back like six spots out of the Cooper flag spot and just get a war chest of the, the all time most picks ever in a trade from OKC, just to move back six spots. You'd have to have like a four hour meeting about that. I feel like Cooper flag's really good.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 39:11Bill Simmons?

  I love him. I'm probably the highest on him out of, out of, uh, you know, because he's a big intangibles guy and I know I'm going to overreact as we get closer to June. But you'd have to really think about it because it's not a Wemba Yama pick.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  And if you're OKC, I think you would also have to really think about it because what the Thunder need more than anything are cost controlled players, really good players on cost controlled salaries. Their roster is about to get very, very expensive, very, very quickly. If you could have four cost control years of Cooper flag as you are contending with the rest of this roster, I, I'm hesitant to say this because we haven't seen Cooper flag play in the NBA yet. If he is as good as advertised, that he might be the single most attractive piece to the Thunder for exactly that reason.

• 39:54Bill Simmons?

  Stretch four, can play some three.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Good ball skills.

• 39:57Bill Simmons?

  Incredibly competitive, doesn't need the ball.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Checks out.

• 40:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I know whoever gets the first pick wouldn't want to trade him, but there's a price for everything and there's a price to make you go, holy shit.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:10Bill Simmons?

  You're going to offer me 220 cents in the dollar for this pick. But I honestly think that's what OKC has to do.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, though. If that pick does convey and OKC gets Philly's pick, six teams will have 20 picks in the first round between them. OKC, one of them, Brooklyn will have three picks. The Spurs, the Jazz, the Magic, the Wizards will all have two picks. That is an incredible consolidation of draft capital. And I don't know who ends up keeping a lot of those picks and who ends up moving them on because they're clearly valuable for all of these cost controlled reasons we've just talked about. But if, to just help you visualize at home as you're listening to us, list off all of these swaps and protections and picks that may convey. Basically, every single pick from 18 to 30 is going to go to a different team, except for Indiana's pick and Boston's pick. That's it. Every other pick is probably going to change hands and that's insane.

• 41:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and I don't even know how they fix it. And Adam Silver should not be the one explaining who gets what. They should maybe like hire Bobby Marks just for three hours as like his assistant, just to be over on the side, just letting it out.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Doing the touchscreen. Like we gotta, we have to raise pick swap literacy around the country at this point because this is becoming an epidemic.

• 41:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, OKC and San Antonio, San Antonio is the other team. Like if Atlanta's pick miraculously got in the top four.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:30Bill Simmons?

  And it got to like four, San Antonio would have enough assets to really try to climb three picks. So it'll, it'll come down to how generationally you think Cooper Flag is. And, you know, I don't think he's in the Wemby, Anthony Davis sure thing class. You really have to believe in some other stuff. I personally think there's no way he misses because of how competitive he is. But, you know, six, seven and a half, there's things you could, to me, he's the perfect stretch four. But we'll see. All right. Next thing on the six pack. Speaking of the draft, the Brooklyn Nets, the team that just won't tank, the team that has players telling reporters, hey, we're going to try to keep winning games. If you don't like it, don't root for us, which I love. So they're 20 and 34.

• 42:14Bill Simmons?

  They're one and a half games behind Chicago for the 10 seed, which is tied with Philly, but does it feel the same as Philly to you, Rob?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Not, not even a little bit.

• 42:24Bill Simmons?

  They have a great coach. They they made the mistake of they kept Cam Johnson and Nick Claxton, but they also have D Lowe on the I'm so happy not to be on the Lakers anymore. I'm gonna go nuts.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:36Bill Simmons?

  They're six and one in their last seven. Their defense held all seven opponents to under 100. Seventh net rating over that time. They bought out Ben Simmons. They traded Schroder and they traded Finney Smith and yet they're still hanging around. And this was not the plan. They made a trade with Houston. I'm sorry, with Houston to try to get their picks back and give them Phoenix picks and they were gonna tank. Now, I don't know. They might make the playoffs. What would you do if you were running Brooklyn?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  Think of fake injury or think of playoffs?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  I think go for it. Honestly, I think go for it. I it's always tough in these positions. And yes, I understand the long term arguments, but I'm with you that I am moved by the enthusiasm of the team. I am moved by the amount of backbone they've been playing with lately and ultimately, particularly how good they've been on defense. This is a team that's like playing a pretty deep rotation, really high energy style, forcing a lot of turnovers. They can't score for shit even now, but they get a lot of stops and they play with a lot of effort. And ultimately, here's the thing. I say you encourage the guys to go for it and they ultimately will probably lose a lot of games anyway, but you didn't pull the rug out from under them. I think that's where you start to lose credibility with the players on your team is when you start actively sabotaging

• 43:54Speaker 01

  their efforts to win just for the sake of the lottery. But if there's a way to let them run themselves out and I look, if you look at the teams that they've they've beaten at this recent stretch of games where they've been so successful, it's not exactly a murderer's row. They will lose games against better teams eventually, but like let them find their spine, let them find their style and ultimately what can be successful for them. And like let Nick Claxton wake up a little bit because he had a bit of a slow start to the season. Like these are meaningful developments for a team like Brooklyn.

• 44:24Bill Simmons?

  I saw this happen a decade ago with Brad Stevens and the Celtics and we were all going nuts because we wanted them to lose, but ultimately like. You do build some sort of a weird DNA that you didn't just roll over, which brings me to the next person on my six pack list or next team, Charlotte, who has achieved peak tank. I don't know if you've looked at their box scores. They tried to trade Mark Williams and couldn't get rid of him. And now I guess he's just in limbo as they fight about whether that trade was legal or not. Brandon Miller had surgery, which is too bad. They signed Alfred Payton and Taj Gibson, and both of them are playing.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  They have to play. Yeah, there's not really another option.

• 45:09Bill Simmons?

  They did, they took on Nurkic in a salary dump. And Nurkic has now found his destiny where you know, he'll have like a 27 rebound game where they still lose by 28. And then they also have LaMelo Ball, who's one of the great, great stats, bad team guys of the last 30 years. I thought it was hilarious that people were like, wow, how did he get left out of the All-Star game? He just jacks up shots and they lose. He's not an All-Star.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  That's unkind. I think LaMelo is better than that. I think he's better than that.

• 45:39Bill Simmons?

  Was that a defensive LaMelo Ball?

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I'm, look, I'm willing to go out on that particular limb. Like I, I think LaMelo is, look, he is on another planet in terms of some of the things he chooses to do, but has a facility with the game that not many guys have. And ultimately is basically the only reason the Hornets have been anything close to solvent at any point in this season. So he doesn't have a lot to work with when he's out there. Bigger concern for me, in addition to all of his habits and kind of the judgments he makes on the court, clearly just like that cursed ankles, tough injury history. If he's never going to be consistently healthy, how is he going to consistently grow as a creator? And that, that's a problem for a player like him.

• 46:17Bill Simmons?

  Would you want to play with him for six months a year? Be honest. Would you want to be, would you want to be his small forward? Would you want to be Brandon Miller?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Do I, would I want to play with anyone under the age of 25? I think the answer is probably no, like there is a stylistic difference between us.

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  This is the only team, I really like Charles Lee. I think he's a good coach. This is the only team I don't want Cooper Flagg to go to.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  See, I think he and Lamelo could run beautifully together.

• 46:42Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I don't know. Anyway, they're, they're in a position to get him.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  They certainly are.

• 46:48Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by my old friend Amtrak. Being a sports fan can take you pretty far, even across state lines for game day. But with Amtrak, the trip can be part of the fun. Skip the driving, settle into your own seat, connect with other fans and arrive ready for the action. The Amtrak Northeast Regional and the Acela connect major cities across the Northeast Corridor, making the journey part of the experience.

• 47:29Bill Simmons?

  I've taken this train many, many times. Visit amtrak.com/spotify to plan your next trip. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey

• 48:09Bill Simmons?

  and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9. Only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. Next one on the six pack. The Chicago Bulls putting together the finishing pieces of an epic 10-year run, starting in the 15-16 season, 42 and 40, 41 and 41, 27 and 55, 22 and 60, 22 and 43, 31 and 41, 46 and 36 in the 22 season.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Feisty.

• 48:46Bill Simmons?

  Lost in the first round, 40 and 42, 39 and 43, 22 and 33 with a chance to make the play-in again. This is Ryan Storff's like manifest destiny, just to, to, uh, to not pay luxury tax.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  To be somewhere near the play-in. To not actually be a threat, to not really have a direction is like, are they tanking? Are they like, they re-sign Lonzo Ball? They could have traded him for a first round pick that came out. Now they kept them. They have Giddy, they have Kobe White, kind of like Buzelis. Vucevic is still there.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:26Bill Simmons?

  They overpaid Patrick Williams. I don't know what this team is. They don't either. And this is just what we're doing in the third biggest city in America, Rob.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Apparently it is. I, I get from that 10,000 foot perspective, why Reinsdorf is the guy who comes up. I don't want to give Arturis Karnashevus too much cover here because I feel like Nico Harrison has done him an incredible favor. Patrick Dumont has done him incredible favor, taking a lot of the airspace of the NBA right now. And I think it just kind of slid under the radar that after the deadline, Karnashevus went up there, had his press conference and explained that there are three different ways to build the championship team. You can have two stars on it, you can have three stars on it, or you can have nine or 10 very good players.

• 50:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  First of all, that has literally never happened before. No team has won a championship with nine or 10 very good players. Not a thing.

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  Also, what qualify, isn't a very good player a star?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  I, I don't know what threshold he's talking about, but.

• 50:20Bill Simmons?

  What's, what's better than very good? Like great?

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Well, let's talk about that. If it is, even if that were true, even if that were what the Bulls are trying to do, how many players on their current roster are very good or even like pretty good?

• 50:32Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they have one very good player. I don't think Kobe White's very good. I think he's good.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  He's probably the closest theoretical Lonzo Ball might be the closest. We hope Manas Buzelis can be that. Vuch some nights.

• 50:46Bill Simmons?

  Very good to me is like, if my, if my son came home from school and I said, how did your history test go? And he said, very good.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm thinking that's like an A minus. Very good is like really positive.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are no A minus players on this roster. I'm not even sure that like, this is a roster that is scraping for solid B, B minus talent right now. And it, to the extent that it's there, it's probably years away from developing.

• 51:12Bill Simmons?

  They got nothing from Levine. They have no extra first round capital, other than this weird protected first rounder they have from Portland that they'll probably never get. They have an absentee landlord as an owner. I think I would take every single team in the East's future over theirs.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you would take Charlotte's?

• 51:34Bill Simmons?

  If you throw in, yeah, Charlotte, Brooklyn, the Brooklyn picks.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 51:37Bill Simmons?

  Even Philly, I have Maxey and I have, you know, hopefully some tradable assets and maybe Embiid will come back. Maybe I could turn Embiid as something. I would rather have every other roster in the East over Chicago's. I don't even know what their number one asset is.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  What a day for the Wizards, you know, they, they had to win something eventually. They won your heart, at least relative to the Chicago Bulls. Congratulations to the Washington Wizards.

• 51:57Bill Simmons?

  I think Jordan Poole is probably better than anyone on the Bulls.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That is the darkest sentence that I've ever heard someone say.

• 52:05Bill Simmons?

  Jordan Poole.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  And it might be true. I think it's true. I think it's true, but it's very.

• 52:07Bill Simmons?

  I thought somebody should have traded for him. We talked about it last week. I, I actually think he's really figured some shit out and he's at least done it on a big stage before, but.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Jordan Poole had an exceedingly.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like Kula Bali and Sar and Carrenton and.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  They've got guys.

• 52:20Bill Simmons?

  They're okay. They're going to have cap space.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  I want, I'll do credit to Jordan Poole who's had an exceedingly normal NBA season. And for him, for a guy that talented, that's a huge step forward.

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  If I was a Chicago Bulls fan, I would be losing my mind.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Rightly so.

• 52:40Bill Simmons?

  They're in the third biggest city in America. The Celtics are about to sell for between six and six and a half billion. So the Bulls are, were somewhere around there. Why can't they just sell the team if they're not going to run it correctly?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  It's a great question.

• 52:51Bill Simmons?

  How long can you live off the Jordan? And how long can you be like, oh, man, if D Rose didn't get hurt in round one, oh, man, that was 13 years ago.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  I know.

• 53:03Bill Simmons?

  Last one on the six pack. You wanted to talk about the Suns who have a net rating in their last 15 games of 18th. Who in their last 58 games, including the playoffs are 26 and 32. Who tried to trade Kevin Durant for about a week before they told him or his agent or his manager that that was even happening. And, uh, now it's like, yeah, this summer they're probably going to trade KD. This is, this is grim. What are you seeing?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  It's not as loud or as dramatic as what's going on in Philly. And so, yeah, they get the lead in terms of the dumpster fire power rankings here. I just, it's so disappointing to see the Suns in such disarray, quietly sucking all this year, and seeing none of the primary stakeholders of that team do a single thing to fix it. And this isn't ultimately like a second apron problem or a no trade clause problem. Like, those are obstructions, right? In terms of Phoenix making its roster better. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team playing into the ball on defense. They're not obstructions for anyone on this team fighting for a rebound. They're not obstructions, most crucially, to finding some semblance of offensive flow

• 54:16Speaker 01

  for a super talented team on paper. Like, I know there is a worse than the sum of its parts thing happening here, because basically, none of the parts complement each other at all. It's just a lot of guys in their individual lanes not making each other better. And that is really, a really tough watch for people like us at this stage in the season. I just don't get the sense that anyone involved in it particularly is participating in that offense either, or participating in this season. And so, it's so disjointed, it's so unpleasant. I really dislike where the Phoenix Suns find themselves. And I don't wish this on any of them. This is just who they've been.

• 54:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, the problem is, they had a certain coach last year that they made the scapegoat for everything. Frank Vogel, who won the 2020 title. They brought in Coach Bud. Completely different philosophy. He's going to unleash these guys offensively, and they're even worse. But, to me, it's a talent problem. I was looking, I looked right around this time where you have like, like, I would say, OKC, Boston, and Cleveland are the three best teams, right? In some order. And then, you think like, they probably have the best rosters, the nine-man rotation. Who would you take on a team like Phoenix? How many of their guys, other than the top two, would even play for one of the top three teams? So, that would be their Beal.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, he would.

• 55:33Bill Simmons?

  I think Beal would play off the bench for at least Boston and Cleveland.

• 55:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't know about OKC. Maybe. Who's he playing over?

• 55:42Speaker 01

  He would play.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  Who's he playing over?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  They need somebody like him. That's, that's the sort of spark.

• 55:46Bill Simmons?

  So you're giving him Isaiah Joe's minutes?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Sure. Yes. I'm giving, I feel fine giving Bradley Beal Isaiah Joe's minutes.

• 55:52Bill Simmons?

  Okay. So he's in the seven, eight or ninth man range for the top three teams. Fair?

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Maybe sixth on the right roster.

• 56:00Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Given the needs.

• 56:01Bill Simmons?

  First guy off the bench.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  First guy off the bench.

• 56:04Bill Simmons?

  I would still rather bring Pritchard off the bench before him, but that's just me.

• 56:09Bill Simmons?

  Grayson Allen or Royce O'Neal? Do they play for any of the top three teams in the top nine of their rotations?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  I mean, this is kind of the Tory Craig corollary because didn't he just like just kind of crack into Boston's rotation a little bit?

• 56:24Bill Simmons?

  Tenth man. Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Royce O'Neal can do a lot of Tory Craig things. I would say he's slightly better than Tory Craig on balance. Uh, Grayson Allen, very much an issue of how much you need his shooting. And frankly, this season, whether his shot is on or not lately, it's been looking a lot better. Start the season was not there. If he's streaky, he's not very viable. So that's a huge problem in terms of high level competition.

• 56:46Bill Simmons?

  Nick Richards?

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he can get minutes.

• 56:51Bill Simmons?

  Maybe Boston, like the KDA, the random KDA game, maybe Nick Richards is getting that asset. I bring this up because it's, it's just grim what Phoenix did with, with all the stuff they traded away. And, you know, I defended the Durant trade when it happened, or at least the idea of it. Even that night, none of us understood why Cam Johnson was in it. But when you're throwing in as many assets as they did, but then also paralyzing themselves to trade other picks and I don't see you now, and I don't really know what KD is worth this summer either.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:21Bill Simmons?

  See, that's not like a miraculous parachute out of here. He's gonna, but that, it's gonna be his 19th season next year. What are you, what are you, what are you getting for him? Are you getting like Jalen Green and a? To a first and a, I don't know. Like, what are you actually getting for Kevin Durant at this point in his career?

• 57:38Speaker 01

  If that's how this ends.

• 57:39Bill Simmons?

  He's got one year left in his deal?

• 57:41Speaker 01

  That's even worse than this, frankly. If it like, that's the hard thing about interrogating Kevin Durant trades is the packages feel more depressing. And the fact, I think the packages also force you to confront what you as an organization in the Phoenix Suns have done with Devin Booker's career. A player who had to come into his own, who took his time, who grew as a playmaker, who grew as a creator, who, to be totally fair, is not having an amazing season by his standards, but a good enough one, a good enough Devin Booker season. And if you use that whole period of time, and you have one trip to the finals in a somewhat weird Western Conference field, and that's it, that like, that's, that's the primary, like, feather in the cap of the Devin Booker

• 58:23Speaker 01

  era? That's really sad, honestly, for, for a star who's had this kind of long lasting relationship with the team. Like, you would hope that a player like that would be rewarded with better.

• 58:35Bill Simmons?

  How many teams did Luca fuck up during his career in the Mavs?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:40Bill Simmons?

  Cause that game seven definitely like was some sort of weird chaos with the Suns.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:46Bill Simmons?

  The Minnesota, the fact that they beat Minnesota, I think led to, I don't know if they trade towns if they make the finals.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Probably not.

• 58:54Bill Simmons?

  Then Dallas themselves, that's another one. Right. So there's already, there's three with the blood on his hands. Yeah, the Phoenix thing feels like a rap. We have not heard a lot from Ishbi lately.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  There are no fixes. And then they're in a conference where this can't happen. We're gonna have San Antonio coming.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:13Bill Simmons?

  OKC's already there. Yo Kage, you going down the line. It's like, there's, this is it.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  They have the toughest remaining strength of schedule of any team in the league from this point. Uh, I don't, they're not gonna make it.

• 59:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, the sad thing is Brooklyn had a few of those picks that they gave back to Houston to get their pick back so they could tank. And now they're not even tanking correctly. But they, those Phoenix picks are looking pretty juicy. Before we wrap up the six pack. San Antonio, when do they throw the the flag into this season? They're just far enough away that you could talk me into it.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  What does throwing in the flag look like?

• 59:51Bill Simmons?

  Ah, some some Wemby rest management. Some Wemby, hey, we need to sit him down for three games. We're worried about some fake tendonitis and some fake part of his body.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  I'm not sure they need to do that. I think they're gonna be, again, perfectly fine coasting out, losing some of these games. Now, if the Fox thing catches on in such a huge way where it's unavoidable, then yeah, maybe you have that discussion. But part of trading for De'Aaron Fox is accelerating at least a little bit. And I think ultimately their position is not so much tethered to their own pick, right? It's tethered to the other draft capital that they have. It's tethered to the guys they already have on roster. So I don't think they necessarily need to.

• 1:00:32Bill Simmons?

  Counter?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Bill Simmons?

  Portland could pretty easily pass them. They could be the third worst team in the West. And they would be either four, five, or six teams worse than them in the East. They could be in the six to nine range with that draft pick, which puts you in lottery mode.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Not too sure.

• 1:00:51Bill Simmons?

  I actually really thought that they were gonna make a little bit of a run and they just can't. I thought Boston really exposed some of the issues with them. I don't know if you watched that game.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  That was a tough game, yeah.

• 1:00:59Bill Simmons?

  They attacked Wemby in a really unique way that I haven't seen teams do before. And just in general, it just looked like two different classes of teams.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  And then you think the Warriors got better.

• 1:01:12Bill Simmons?

  I don't really see the path for them. Anything else you want to hit before we go?

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I think we covered a lot of it. We covered every mid to terrible team in the Eastern Conference, it feels like. So we really gave the people what they want today.

• 1:01:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's it for today's six pack. But if that's not enough for you, remember Michelob Ultra Courtside can get you closer to the action. Tons of different prizes. Go stock up before the next game enters for your chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Superior Access Courtside 2024 to 2025 Sweepstakes. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 or older begins October 1st, 2024. That already happened. Ends on July 1st, 2025. Multiple entry periods. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, I'm almost on official rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. Enjoy responsibly. 2025 Anheuser-Busch Michelob Ultra Light Beer, St. Louis, Missouri. Rob, we're both on the Prestige TV Podcast.

• 1:02:09Bill Simmons?

  Doing White Lotus. I'm doing the recap with your TV wife, Joanna Robinson, and Mallory Rubin on Sunday nights. And then you and Joanne are doing the precaps, diving into theories on Wednesdays. You can find that on, that's gonna be videos, podcasts on the Prestige feed. That's also on our Ringer-TV YouTube channel. What are you the most excited about White Lotus?

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Walton Goggins. Always Walton Goggins, but Kerry Coon. Never upset to see Kerry Coon on the screen.

• 1:02:37Bill Simmons?

  And you haven't watched the first one yet?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Not a bit. You know, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really juiced for my personal trip to spiritual Thailand for this season. So.

• 1:02:46Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. You get to go on an actual vacation with the cast. You just live vicariously through your TV.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  From your lips to Daniel X's ears. Let's lock it in. Let's get that expense report filed. I'm ready to go.

• 1:02:56Bill Simmons?

  You live vicariously. Just like, nice TV, just kind of zone in, see the trees. There's a lot of monkeys. There's a lagoon. Yeah, lots of stuff.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Love a lagoon.

• 1:03:06Bill Simmons?

  Really good. Anyway, you can hear us both on the Prestige TV pod. You can hear Rob on the Ringer NBA Show on Grief Chat as well. And you can read them on an excellent website called TheRinger.com. Mahoney, good to see you.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Thanks, Bill.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. When you watch a football game, you follow the ball, right? Well, there's a video on TikTok where this guy says to watch the players without the ball. Watch the routes and the action away from the play. I'll change how you see the game. And guess what? He's not wrong. That's the thing about discovery on TikTok. One video can change the way you see the game. You can learn something new or see things in a completely different way. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com/discovermore. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes? Post-workout recovery is a big factor. Core Power Protein Shakes help you keep going after your workout with high-quality protein to build muscle and electrolytes to help hydrate.

• 1:03:58Bill Simmons?

  It's all you need for your recovery in one bottle. Available in 26 and 42 gram protein options to pick what works best for you. Visit corepower.com to learn more. Saturday Night Live premiered on October 11th, 1975, the same night as Game One of the World Series between Pete Rose's Big Red Machine and my beloved Boston Red Sox. I turned six two weeks earlier. I have one hazy memory from that shutout victory for the Red Sox in game one. It was Louis Teague teetering around the bases, somehow scoring while wearing a puffy, blue, warm-up jacket. It was amazing. Was I sleeping later that night when John Belushi declared his intention to feed his fingertips to the Wolverines? Of course I was. But the 75 Red Sox were my first favorite baseball team, and SNL eventually became one of my

• 1:04:43Bill Simmons?

  favorite TV shows ever. For the rest of the 1970s, SNL thrived in some alternate universe that just would not include me. We all knew about the show in school. We knew it was funny. We noticed the commercials. We knew our parents stayed up to watch it. But we couldn't sample it until 4th grade because something special happened that year. That's when best of SNL shows started popping up in primetime as fillers for NBC's canceled shows. Suddenly, the nerds, the Coneheads, the Wild and Crazy Guys, the Cheeseburger Guys, they all became part of our lives. Needless to say, I loved everyone. I loved everything, but I really loved John Belushi. The Samurai Guy, Joe Cocker, the Chocolate Donuts commercial,

• 1:05:24Bill Simmons?

  the "But no!" update monologues. This human being actually existed every week on some show way past my bedtime? How is this fair? How could I watch more? How could I get there? We didn't have DVR, YouTube, or social media in 1979, as you could probably guess. Once that week's SNL host said, "Goodnight," the episode vanished into thin air. The only time you would watch it again is if it was in a rerun that summer. So I was out of luck until fate intervened. That same winter, my parents separated, and I became an only child with an insane amount of leverage. Leverage used for self-serving proclamations like, "I don't care what my bedtime is. I'm staying up late for Saturday Live."

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  So one of my first live SNL shows was hosted by Margot Kidder during Kidder's brief apex between Superman and Amityville Heart, two movies that I like. You wouldn't remember this apex unless you're over 50 years old, but one of SNL's underrated traits as an American pop culture institution. It catches 90% of our most famous actors, actresses and musicians at the exact point when they are precisely the most famous. Think about that. The most famous. That's SNL. The best sketch from that show? Kidder's Lois Lane character threw a birthday party for Bill Murray's Superman character. And she invited some various superheroes to come along and I'm watching it live. I'm just sitting there waiting for my guy Belushi.

• 1:06:51Bill Simmons?

  And at the three minute mark, the doorbell rings. Kidder opens the door. There's Belushi. Strolls in cackling, he's covered in green. He's dressed like, oh my God, he's dressed like the Incredible Hulk. And even now, you can listen for the audience laughing and clapping just at the mere sight of John Belushi because in 1979, there was no safer comedy wager in America than John Belushi is the Incredible Hulk. So he ambled over to Superman, shakes his hand, screams in muck, oh, let go, let go, let go. And then later he annihilates the bathroom with an Incredible Hulk poop as everyone recoils in horror. He comes out. Come on, take it easy. It's not supposed to smell like roses. I never laughed so hard in my life. This was done. This was a rap. I had a new favorite guy, a new favorite show.

• 1:07:35Bill Simmons?

  I stayed up for a few more season four episodes and then Belushi left. He left with Dan Aykroyd for Hollywood, but I still watched all of season five. Once NBC started airing one hour best of SNL shows on Wednesdays in the fall of 1979, suddenly kids like me could retroactively experience every famous sketch. Did NBC realize? Did they realize they were cultivating the next generation of SNL diehards? Of course they didn't. This was the same year they trotted out Supertrain. There wasn't a dumber TV network than NBC in 1980. So we can call it a happy accident. But that summer, I made my father bring me to two R rated movies, Caddyshack and The Blues Brothers, just to see Chevy and Murray and Belushi and Aykroyd.

• 1:08:18Bill Simmons?

  In that fall, we bought a cumbersome VCR and SNL became part of my life for good. Over the next five decades, the most important sketches and moments hinged on four impossible to totally measure questions. Factor number one. What was the impact in the moment? For instance, you might have a personal history of the Wayne's World franchise that's colored by two movies and a whopping 19 SNL sketches. You heard me, they did 19. Maybe Wayne and Garth stopped making you laugh 25 years ago. I sure hope not, because we're doing Wayne's World on Monday's Rewatchables. That still holds up, by the way. But the first Wayne sketch happened on Leslie Nielsen's February 89 show, not long after Mike Myers joined the cast, when he was simply the guy in the credits who had the same name as the killer from Halloween.

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  That's how we knew him. Then they did Wayne's World. Everything killed. Wayne killed, Garth killed, the whole cable show in a basement angle killed. You watched the sketch in the moment and you thought, I want more of these guys. Do this sketch again. And for me, in the moment, matters more than everything else. You know, you know with more cowbell, Barry Gibb talk shows, Star Trek convention, Mr. Bell Bedir, you always know right away with SNL. So that's factor number one. Factor number two is the sketch still funny right now? Little less important, because comedy, you know, sometimes doesn't age that great. Sometimes the things we thought were funny in 1994, we don't think are as funny now. It's also hinging on something that happened in the moment, sometimes, which is like one

• 1:09:46Bill Simmons?

  of the last Wayne's World sketches ever, which happened in 1994, is Heather Locklear's show, yet another host apex. And in the sketch, Wayne starts dreaming that he ended up in Melrose Place. Now, this is something that would make no sense to anybody who's under 40 and can't remember Melrose Place if they watched in 2025. But in the moment, was one of TV's hottest shows. Sandler parroting Billy, the P-whip boyfriend, was the highest of high comedy. You have to believe me. Everyone despised that Billy character, only the internet didn't exist yet and we couldn't properly ridicule him. So Adam Sandler spoke for everybody. And that matters, even if the sketch itself hasn't aged well. Factor number three.

• 1:10:30Bill Simmons?

  Does the sketch have any belated significance that transcended the sketch itself? Okay, here's a good example. Will Ferrell's first SNL season, 1995, 1996. That followed the critically reviled season 20, which nearly submarine the show and left New York Magazine's infamous takedown cover story as its enduring legacy. How about that as a legacy? That summer, NBC makes a fuss. They're blowing up the cast, they're blowing up the writing staff, and you had a real sense the show is on life support, which would have been the third time in 20 years. We felt that way. So, season 21, Merrill Hemmey is hosting the first episode. "I'm visiting my buddy Jim Grady in Connecticut, and we play shuffleboard until 4 a.m. at Sam's in Portchester, where I'm still the goat. One of those nights when I woke up on Sunday morning

• 1:11:15Bill Simmons?

  with my contact lenses still in my eyes, unable to remember how I ended up on the sofa and wondering why I didn't have a blanket. Nobody else was awake. I loaded up SNL on Jim's TV, and I watched through bleary eyes as Ferrell's first big sketch comes on, Get Off the Shed. And again, I'm hungover as all hell. I can barely see, and this new cast member is jumping right off the screen at me. Who is this guy? He dragged at least four wheezy post-cigarette binge cough laughs out of me. And at some point, Jim heard me laughing and rolled out of bed, and I immediately replayed Get Off the Shed for him. And now Jim was saying, who is this guy? Later, Ferrell plays a husband who kept coming up with off-color excuses to derail his wife and get her off the phone. That character was funny, too.

• 1:11:58Bill Simmons?

  Combining the impact of those two sketches, you knew that your life in 1995 was suddenly 0.77% better with this Will Ferrell guy. You knew right away. And two decades later, Get Off the Shed isn't one of Ferrell's 10 funniest SNL sketches. Husband Excuses probably doesn't crack the top 30. But that first episode mattered. There was a new sheriff in town. You needed to start watching SNL every week again. And that matters in the big scheme of things, right? So that's the third factor. The fourth factor, it's a cousin of In the Moment.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  Did you know immediately that something truly spectacular had just happened? All right, let's go back to 1975. Richard Pryor is about to host the 11th episode. They've already banked 10. SNL has already established itself as TV's most groundbreaking show. No comedy show belonged to the baby boober generation until SNL showed up. This is a generation that devoured Rolling Stone. They devoured their rock music. They hated Vietnam and Nixon. They revered George Carlin, Richard Pryor. They loved improv. They loved Harvard Lampoon. They despised traditional sitcoms and variety shows like Carol Burnett. They needed their own show. So after 10 episodes, Michaels, Lorne Michaels, figures out a show to show structure for that specific audience that barely looks different than the one today.

• 1:13:16Bill Simmons?

  Sketches, Weekend Update, music, comedy performances, short film, basically in that order. I don't think he ever intended the show to reach 30 million people some nights, but who the fucking predict this shit? So Pryor was that generation's hottest comedian, which meant no season one episode carried higher expectations. Chevy Chase had already become a huge star. What happens? It becomes SNL's first Pantheon show. Pryor's monologue, predictably great. Exorcist parody kills. Pryor and Belushi did Samurai Hotel. And everything peaks with word association, which is a sketch that pitted two of comedy's biggest stars against one another, Pryor and Chevy Chase, who's the breakout guy for season one. And thanks to a sizzling performance by Pryor,

• 1:13:59Bill Simmons?

  the racial tension that builds during that sketch still plays 50 years later. It's not a sketch that's aged well, but it's one of the most important SNL moments ever because nobody had ever tried anything like it on live television before. This was dunking from the foul line shit. This was Dr. J in the ABA contest. That was word association. So my favorite SNL episode ever also had my favorite SNL sketch ever and my favorite musical performance ever. This was when Stevie Wonder hosted. And they do this sketch called the Stevie Wonder Experience. This is eight years after Pryor, 1983. Wonder hosts right as Eddie Murphy is doing this wicked and slightly controversial impression of him. And Eddie's a huge star at this point. And you're watching the show live and you're thinking,

• 1:14:44Bill Simmons?

  There's no way Eddie's gonna do Stevie in front of Stevie, right? But you're secretly kinda hoping he would. So it finally happens in a sketch with Joe Piscopo, who's playing an agent. He brings in Stevie, who's a celebrity impersonator. And they audition for Murphy, who's a music executive. And the catch is that Stevie's character bills himself as a Stevie Wonder experience, only he's doing a Stevie impersonation. It's horrible. And Murphy goes, no, no, no, you're doing it all wrong. And proceeds to slip on a pair of sunglasses and the crowd goes batshit. And he does Stevie with Stevie standing right next to him. So I'm 13 when this happened, which is probably the best age to fall in love with SNL, even though I was already in love. And you can think I'm crazy, I don't care.

• 1:15:26Bill Simmons?

  But the most exciting non-sports TV moments of the early eighties were this sketch. Letterman taking a show to LA and having Carson as a guest. Michael Jackson singing Billie Jean and doing the moonwalk on the Motown 25 special, which was amazing. Reagan getting shot by Hankley. Roddy Piper smashing the coconut in Jimmy Snuka's head. And the premiere of Thriller on MTV, and I can't accept any other arguments. Anyway, Eddie brings the house down with an impression of Stevie singing My Sharia Morning. Unbelievably crushes it, kills it. Stevie's standing right there, crowd settles down. Stevie tries his impersonation again, it's still terrible. Eddie takes over, nails it a second time. Crowd settles down, scene shifts back to Stevie for one last attempt.

• 1:16:09Bill Simmons?

  And only this time, fake Stevie suddenly turns into real Stevie. And he belts out an acapella version that's, you can't even describe how good it is, because nobody brought it quite like Stevie in his prime. He nails the last note and the studio erupts like someone made a midcourt shot to win a tournament game. If you watch the tape, Piscopo breaks character. He lets out this delighted yelp. That's how remarkable it was. So I know he's a first bout Hall of Famer, I know he's a musical icon. But I can't imagine Stevie Wonder ever bringing the house down quite like that. And Eddie pushed him there, of course. Eddie never breaks character. He waits for the applause to die down and waits an extra second. And then he finally says, nah, man, it still sucks. Huge laugh, perfect ending,

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  one of the greatest sketches in the history of the show. And at that specific moment, you would have bet anything that Murphy would be one of the biggest stars in the world someday. But that's what made him such a unicorn. By sheer coincidence, by dumb luck, an SNL show that desperately needed energy and diversity and a real star stumbled into someone basically created by God to appear on the show. So of the biggest stars in SNL history, only Eddie broke into show business on the show. He was a cast member at 19. He was the show's meal ticket by 20. He was a movie star by 21. And he was a full-fledged super duper star by 22 and headed to Hollywood for good at 23. We will never see it again. He's the most

• 1:17:33Bill Simmons?

  talented SNL cast member ever. He's the only one to host the show when he was starring on it. And for that, and many other reasons, I have Eddie as the SNL GOAT cast member. And I'll fight people in a bar if they want to come up with somebody else. Here's the thing. Only Eddie and Will Ferrell could carry an entire season by themselves. This is like you're using the 2009 LeBron and the Cavs analogy. How many guys could you win 60 games with if they were the only really good guy in the team? That was Eddie and Will Ferrell, and that's really it. So if you're building the hypothetical GOAT SNL cast, I think you have to have Eddie and Ferrell, or I can't take the list seriously. It's not negotiable. But what would the rest of the cast look like? Well, three things.

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  First of all, SNL needs to move like a basketball team. You need an eight man rotation. You need one wild card off the bench. You want enough minutes for everyone. This is always the mistake the show makes over the years when they have these big fat swollen casts. You have a 90 minute show with commercials. It's really about 67 minutes of content. You have weekend update. You have two musical acts. So maybe five, six sketches max, plus a couple update things. You don't need 17 people. You need eight, maybe nine. So we'll have the wild card. We'll have the Dion Waiters spot. So that's one. Second, the best SNL cast members can either carry a sketch or glue guy a sketch. And the glue guy thing is super important because that was what Phil Hartman was the best at. You have to be able to do both. You can't just be a one man show. And in this case, it's a lot like

• 1:18:59Bill Simmons?

  basketball. Can you take over a game? Can you set other people up? Can you play characters? Can you play the straight man? Can you sell other people? Can you do anything? You want a whole cast of these people. Again, you got to think like it's a basketball team. You want the ball to move around. And then the third thing is I was trying to include different eras to the best of my ability. So Eddie and Farrell ran, I got seven spots left. Phil Hartman was the best glue guy in the show's history. Dana Carvey, who I think is the most underrated male cast member now, he would have thrived on any cast for the entire 15 years and was a force of nature. Same for Bill Hader. So there's five, and I don't think you can leave any of them off. Eddie, Farrell, Hartman, Carvey, Hader. Best female cast member ever, it's

• 1:19:42Bill Simmons?

  still Gilda Radner. It's not fun to say because she was on the first cast and she kind of had the title to begin with, and then other people probably tried to take it from her, not knowing, but she's still the best. She's the best female cast member in the history of the show. Kristen Wiig was right up there. So she's included too. That's seven. And I thought Maya Rudolph was the most underrated female cast member ever. She could carry any type of sketch. She could do all the musical stuff. So that would be my eight. And then obviously for the wild card, I gotta have Belushi. So I have Eddie Farrell, Gilda Wiig, Hartman, Hader, Carvey, Maya and Belushi. I'm rocking with those nine. My weekend update guy, Norm MacDonald. Come on. Still living on social media 30 years later, they're still running his jokes from update. So I have Norm. I'm

• 1:20:27Bill Simmons?

  turning over all digital videos, I'm doing a time machine loop here, to Andy Samberg and Adam Sandler. They're just gonna work together, even though they're from different eras. Knock yourself out, guys. And then I have the following 10 hosts. Tom Hanks, John Goodman, Steve Martin, Chris Walken, Alec Baldwin, Dave Chappelle, Emma Stone, Ariana Grande, Melissa McCarthy, and Candace Bergen. If you're drawing from all the eras, that's the best 10 you're gonna come up with. But remember, this is my list, doesn't mean it's right. I've only been watching the show for my entire life. What do I know? All right, 10 best episodes ever. So these are my 10. They might not be your 10. These are mine. Stevie Wonder, 1983, which had the Stevie Experience, had the Canon camera ad,

• 1:21:12Bill Simmons?

  Dion the hairdresser, and three Stevie songs, including him singing Overjoyed, which is the best musical moment in the history of the show. That's one I won't argue about. Go watch it if you don't believe me. The crowd goes nuts and just keeps cheering. It's like a sporting event. So I have that episode. Richard Pryor, 1976, which also had two stand-ups from him, too. It had Samurai Hotel, Word Association, all, you know, the Chevy Weekend Update. That's the first great SNL show. Jim Carrey in 1996, which was the last episode of the aforementioned Comeback Season. This is Carrey at the peak of his powers. He's coming off, you know, he'd had The Mask and Ace Ventura. Like, he's Dumber Dumber. He's suddenly one of the biggest movie stars, and SNL had rejected him.

• 1:21:56Bill Simmons?

  So he comes on with a huge chip on his shoulder. There's Fireman Bill, Night at the Roxbury, Joe Pessi Show with Jimmy Stewart, does the Cheerleaders, the Jacuzzi lifeguard. Also, you had Norm on Update, who was on fire, and you had a David Spade Hollywood Minute. So this is probably the best show of the last 30 years that they had. And by the way, Soundgarden was the guest. Steve Martin in 1978. This was why they considered to be the best show of the Belushi, Ackroyd, Murray era. Blues Brothers as the musical best guest. Steve Martin said it was the peak of me. Actual quote. King Tut did the wordless guild, the dancing scene, Wild and Crazy Guys, Medieval Barber. There was a point, counterpoint on Weekend Update with Jane Curtin and Dan Ackroyd

• 1:22:40Bill Simmons?

  that I always enjoyed when Jane would make her point and then Dan would go, "Jane, you ignorant slut." And a joke that would not fly 50 years later, but it was really funny because that's what newscasts were like back then. It was these males just dominating the show and the woman was over there. So they're paired in that. Really funny. Nerd Science Fair was on that as well. All right, fifth one. Tom Hanks in 1988, which I think is in the running for best season opener ever and probably was. This had the Bush to caucus debate. Dan Aykroyd as Bob Dole, John Lovitz as Dukakis going, I can't believe I'm losing to this guy. So I have that. There's a parody of the movie Big. Dennis Miller's on update. They do the all drug Olympics on this one. They played a game show called Jew, Not a Jew. That's actually pretty funny.

• 1:23:22Bill Simmons?

  They did the Girl Watchers thing with Lovitz and Hanks where they're just like, ah, my forehead's just a little too big and all that stuff. Mr. Short Term Memory, Hans and Franz. Great episode. So this is, I think, the most underrated episode for me. David Allen Greer in 1995. They do the wake up and smile sketch where the teleprompter in the morning show breaks and they all kind of turn on each other, Lord of the Flies style. It's unbelievable. It's one of the 10 best sketches. So that's on there. Spade does Hollywood Minute. Will Ferrell does a Brian Boitano impersonation. Ted Koppel as, uh, doing a Michael Jackson, Jack Obaco.

• 1:24:03Bill Simmons?

  Brian, David Allen Greer plays Brian Gumbel off camera as like this real kind of, basically like a crazy hood. It's hilarious. And then Norm is on update. So I'm putting that one on there. You also had, uh, Daryl Hammond on that show as Bill Clinton reviewing American president and talking about how much he loved that the, uh, the wife died and then Silver Chair was somehow the musical guest. So you have that. William Shatner in 1986. This had Star Trek convention and all timers, Sweeney's Sisters of Christmas. TJ Hooker parody. They had the Star Trek V restaurant enterprise. This is one of the top seven shows ever. They even did a Wonderful Life parody. Tom Hanks in 1990. Hanks with two of the top seven for me.

• 1:24:45Bill Simmons?

  This is the one when Aerosmith came on. Aerosmith was on Wayne's World. Hanks was the groupie doing the semblance, semblance, short term memory, Tales of Ribaldry. Girl Watchers, Millar and Update, probably the best SNL cast of, of that era. So I have that. I have Eddie Murphy's comeback show in 2019, which was emotional because nobody ever thought he was going to come back after the show made fun of him a couple of times. He finally came back. He did all his old characters and it was awesome. Christopher Walken in 1992 where he did Trivial Psychic.

• 1:25:18Bill Simmons?

  Perot and Stockdale, the Continental, uh, Stock Talk. There was a Sinead O'Connor parody. There was a Pat sketch. There was a Hollywood Minute and Jane Brady and Weekend Update and Arrested Development. So that's, that's my, uh, my top 10. I also have, um, as honorable mention, Timberlake, Timberlake in 2006. We did Dick in a Box and Barry Gibb Show. Lindsay Lohan in 2004, when, when she was in that famous Debbie Downer sketch. There was also a really funny Harry Potter sketch. Sting in 1991, which had the Sinatra Group in it and some other stuff. Eddie Murphy, when he came back to host in 1984.

• 1:25:56Bill Simmons?

  John Goodman in 1998, when, when, uh, this is the episode they did Neil Diamond Storytellers, but he also played Linda Tripp with Monica Lewinsky. Uh, there was a morning latte thing. It's just a really good episode, start to finish. And then Adam Sandler, 2018, when he came back, he played the Farley song, which is, I think, one of the most emotional moments in show history. And then, uh, Betty White in 2010, when she came back, was really fun. So for my favorite sketches ever, and these are in no particular order, uh, the Tony Bennett Show, the first time Baldwin did this, when he had David Guest and Liza Minnelli had it, uh, lines were crossed. That is still one of the five funniest sketches for me. It makes me laugh so hard. They sing a song together.

• 1:26:43Bill Simmons?

  Uh, it's making me laugh thinking about it. The Sinatra Group with Phil Hartman, when there was a parody of the McGlaughlin Group. And, uh, he's got Billy Idol on there and Luther Campbell, and he's just killing everybody. Uh, I watched this in college with my buddy Jacko. Uh, who was my roommate at the time. We watched it on a Sunday morning after we woke up, and I think we watched it five times. And we were talking like Sinatra, uh, yelling at Stephen Eady for the rest of the week. Steve Wonder Experience, I mentioned. The Neil Diamond Storytellers, that's the one where, um, Neil, Will Ferrell as Neil Diamond, just going off the rails and being like, this is a song about my hatred of immigrants. Just incredible stuff. Mr. Belvedere Fan Club. This is a fan club for Mr. Belvedere, Tom Hanks hosting,

• 1:27:26Bill Simmons?

  where they're all deciding how to interact with Mr. Belvedere. And it's really about fan obsession, but it's really, really good. Jackie Rogers Jr. Jackpot Wad. That's with Martin Short. That was the funniest character he played on there. Dysfunctional Family Dinner with Sarah Michelle Gellar, when Will Ferrell and the family's like, just kind of eating, but then they would yell at each other and calm down. More Cowboy. You know that one. Buckley Gets Shot and Buckley Died. Those two were classics. The First Barry Gibb Talk Show. I have that one. Debbie Downer at Disney, a classic. Greg the Alien, I think the most underrated Will Ferrell sketch where he's hosting a sports show, but he might be an alien. Star Trek Convention with Shatner, when he has all the Star Trek people and he's like, what's wrong with you people? And starts yelling

• 1:28:09Bill Simmons?

  at them. Reagan, the mastermind. Phil Hartman is Reagan. The Referee Pittman Show is one of my most underrated ones. John Goodman as Referee Pittman. It's a talk show and all the, all the people in the audience are like, hey, referee Pittman, how do you shove your head up your ass? Is it like, do you have to bend out? And it's just, they're just making referee jokes. Chippendales Sketch with Chris Farley. Comedy Killers, which was like Jeopardy, but with comedy killers. And then the, the final answer ends up being the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. Incredible. Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. Dysfunctional Family Feud. Trivial Psychic. Farley, the first time he did Matt Foley. Nick Cage and

• 1:28:52Bill Simmons?

  Tiny Elvis. Wake Up and Smile, which I mentioned earlier. Night at the Roxbury with Jim Carrey, which was just unbelievable because they had done this sketch a couple of times. And then he came in and just physically was somehow outshone both of those guys. Election Night 2016, I don't have a lot of ones from the last 10 years just because you got aged with those, but Election Night 2016 with Chappelle. When everyone at the parties talking about how this is the worst thing that ever happened and Chappelle's doing Chappelle stuff, great. And then Bargatze's Washington Dream thing. It was really good and they've done two of those, but that was, I think, of the last five years, probably the, probably one of the greats. And then, the only other one I forgot to mention was the Joe Montana one, Sincere Guys do.

• 1:29:35Bill Simmons?

  And Joe Montana is the biggest star in football and he's on there and you can hear his thoughts and his thoughts were, "I'm gonna go upstairs and masturbate." And it just was like shocking to hear Joe Montana say that. So, uh, that would be my episodes and then just for the hell of it, musical acts. Best musical performance ever, Stevie Wonder overjoyed, second best. Paul Simon when he sang The Boxer right after 9/11. Really great, just, I think one of the best moments in the history of the show with all the, uh, the New York firefighters standing there and Giuliani, it's just, it's really special. Queens of the Stone Age when they played Little Sister in 2002 and Pharoah came out and did the cowbell, amazing.

• 1:30:15Bill Simmons?

  U2 did I Will Follow at the end of an SNL episode in 04 and ended up like, kind of, they broke the fourth wall and kind of went in the audience, that was amazing. The Bus Boys saying, "Boys are back in town in 1983," right at Eddie's apex and Eddie just went out and sang it with them and it felt like a moment. Run DMC, Walk This Way, 1986. White Stripes, Dead Leaves in, uh, 2002, which is just like Jack White and Meg White at their fucking apex, it's awesome. Billy Joel sang Miami, 2017 to 1981, it's really good. Nirvana, Teen Spirit, 1992. Blues Brothers, Soul Man, 1978, really fun to watch. So OutKast sang Mrs. Jackson in 2002. Pearl Jam, Porch.

• 1:31:01Bill Simmons?

  In 1992, you know, I love that. You know, I love Porch and Pearl Jam. Hole was awesome. They sang Violet in 1994. I would encourage you to find any of these, by the way. Billie Eilish, Bad Guy, 2019 visually was amazing. Ken and Crow sang Round Here in 1994, and it was their first song, not their second one, and they crushed it. And it basically made them a hit band, which is the power of that show. If you crushed SNL, your albums took off. Shanae O'Connor, Last Day, 1990, Last Day of My, Our Acquaintance, 1990, the Prince song, that was actually her song. And she's incredible in that. And then, two years later, comes back

• 1:31:43Bill Simmons?

  and does the Pope thing and almost commits a career suicide, although now, I think it's, it's, it's played out better for her. Kendrick in 2014 sang I, and it's great. Bowie did The Man Who Would The World in 1979, which was, I think, one of the coolest visual ones. Eminem and Dre sang Still in 1999, and it's awesome. And then the last one I would recommend, if you want to go look up any of these, is Stevie Nicks, Stand Back, in 1983, because there's some guy that is dancing during the performance. You'll know it when you see it. It's a moment unlike anything ever in the show. And also, it's a really good song. So that's what I got.

• 1:32:26Bill Simmons?

  Those are all my SNL thoughts. I can't wait to watch SNL 50. If you want to read what I thought about SNL 40, it's in the Grantland Archives, actually, from 10 years ago. But that's it. Those are, those are all my thoughts. I, I would dump them out to you on the, on the pod and on the YouTube. You can watch me actually stumble through this. So, there you go. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Kyle and Sir Rudy and Gahow as well. Don't forget, Prestige TV Podcast, this weekend, White Lotus, Sunday night, me and Joanna and Mallory are going to be breaking all of it down. New rewatchable is coming on Monday, Wayne's World. And that will be the first video podcast on Spotify. Very excited about

• 1:33:09Bill Simmons?

  that. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on this feed on Sunday.

• 1:33:38Bill Simmons?

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