Justinian and Theodora

Dead Funny History: Justinian and Theodora. Join historian Greg Jenner for a fast-paced, funny and fascinating journey through the lives of Justinian and Theodora; the ultimate Byzantine power couple who ruled an empire, survived riots, and reformed the law. This episode of Dead Funny History is packed with jokes, sketches and sound effects that bring the past to life for families and Key Stage 2 learners. From humble beginnings, he was the nephew of a pig farmer, she may have been the daughter of a bear trainer, Justinian and Theodora rose to become co-rulers of the Byzantine Empire, based in Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul). Their love story began at the chariot races and led to a marriage that defied the law, until Justinian got it changed. Together, they faced the terrifying Nika Riots, when rival teams joined forces to burn the city. Justinian wanted to flee, but Theodora’s legendary speech convinced him to stay and rebuild. Expect parodies, sketch comedy, and a quiz to test what you’ve learned. Discover how they reformed Byzantine law, improved rights for women, and built the stunning Hagia Sophia. There’s also a Thrash Metal battle with the Vandals and Ostrogoths, a ghostly uncle, and a goose-honking nod to Theodora’s early career. It’s history with heart, humour and high production value. Perfect for curious kids, families, and fans of You’re Dead To Me. Written by Jack Bernhardt, Gabby Hutchinson Crouch and Dr Emma Nagouse Host: Greg Jenner Performers: Mali Ann Rees and Richard David-Caine Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Associate Producer: Gabby Hutchinson Crouch Audio Producer: Emma Weatherill Script Consultant: Professor Peter Frankopan Production Coordinator: Liz Tuohy Production Manager: Jo Kyle Studio Managers: Keith Graham and Andrew Garratt Sound Designer: Peregrine Andrews A BBC Studios Production

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:47Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to Dead Funny History. I'm Greg Jenner. I'm a historian and I want to tell you about some cool people. Who is history's biggest power couple? Zendaya and Tom Holland have nothing on Justinian and Theodora, the co-rulers of the Byzantine Empire.

• 2:04Greg Jenner?

  Ah, it was the eastern part of the Roman Empire, ranging from Greece all the way to the Middle East and Egypt, and lasting from the 4th century all the way to the 15th century CE. And even though they still called it the Roman Empire, it didn't actually have Rome in it anymore. Yeah, the western half of the Roman Empire had been taken over by different tribes, and they all had names like thrash metal bands.

• 2:31Speaker 04

  From North Africa, give it up for the band!

• 2:38Speaker 04

  From Spain, the busy girl!

• 2:45Speaker 04

  And live from Rome, the ostro girl!

• 2:56Greg Jenner?

  The Byzantine Empire's main city was called New Rome, but mostly people called it Constantinople. It sits at the meeting point of Europe and Asia, and these days it's called Istanbul in Turkey. It was then home to the largest and most spectacular church in the world, the Hagia Sophia, or Holy Wisdom, and it was built by the nephew of a pig farmer. You what? Yep. Justinian was born in the Balkans in around the year 480 CE. His name was Flavius Petrus Sabatius Yossianus Augustus. Thankfully, he shortened it to Justinian in honour of his uncle, Justin, who was a pig farmer.

• 3:38Greg Jenner?

  Uncle Justin somehow worked his way up the ranks of the army to become emperor of the Byzantine Empire in 518 CE. And with his uncle in power, young Justinian moved to the big city. And what was the most important thing he did when he got there?

• 3:53Speaker 04

  Come on, you blues!

• 3:55Greg Jenner?

  Yes, watching sports. Now, the new sport that everyone was into was...

• 4:03Speaker 04

  And there he goes.

• 4:08Greg Jenner?

  Ancient Formula One, but because cars hadn't yet been invented, it was all a bit more...

• 4:14Speaker 04

  And there he goes.

• 4:19Greg Jenner?

  Horse-drawn chariots, and this is where we meet Theodora. Kelly. Theodora had a lot in common with Justinian. She was also from a poor family. It seems likely that her dad had been a bear trainer. Sadly, her dad died when she was young, and she and her sisters had to make a living as actresses. While dad was a bear trainer, she was a bear performer, as in, she would perform while completely, uh, bear. She would famously do a very rude performance with a bunch of geese.

• 4:57Greg Jenner?

  She also worked as a professional girlfriend to important men in the empire, which helped her learn a lot about politics, religion, and how an empire should be run. Hooray for multitasking. Most historians believe Theodora met Justinian at an arena called the Hippodrome due to their shared love of watching chariot races. Like a meet-cute in a rom-com, but with more broken bones.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Gosh, uh, wow, uh, is this seat taken?

• 5:26Speaker 05

  It's free, and so am I, by the way. Theodora.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm Justinian, and it looks like I'm just in time to meet the loveliest girl in the world.

• 5:39Speaker 05

  I recognise your name. Are you one of the drivers?

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Golly, no, no, no, but my heart could be.

• 5:49Speaker 05

  My leg!

• 5:52Speaker 05

  Really? Why?

• 5:55Speaker 04

  Oh, 'cause, baby, you've got it racing.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  My leg has literally come off!

• 6:06Greg Jenner?

  Also like a rom-com, their love story hit a few snacks. Justinian may have started life on the farm, but now he was a fancy guy, and the law did not allow him to marry a lowly actress. Boo! Yes, boo indeed. And according to some reports, Justinian pulled the rom-com happy ending out of the bag by basically saying...

• 6:27Speaker 06

  Wait, hang on, I'm the emperor's nephew, Uncle Justin?

• 6:32Speaker 04

  Yes lad.

• 6:33Speaker 06

  Can you change the law so I can marry my beloved?

• 6:36Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:37Speaker 06

  Great.

• 6:38Greg Jenner?

  As wedding presents go, changing the law is a bit extra. My uncle just gave me an air fryer. Justinian and Theodora were happily married in 525 CE, and Uncle Justin picked Justinian to rule alongside him from the 1st of April 527 CE. Justin was really pulling out all the stops to earn the role of favourite uncle.

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Teamwork makes a dream work lad. Together we'll rule this empire for decades.

• 7:07Speaker 06

  Best uncle ever!

• 7:09Speaker 04

  Hang on, I-I just feel a tiny bit... bit ill.

• 7:14Greg Jenner?

  And four months later, Emperor Justin was dead.

• 7:18Speaker 06

  Oh, fui.

• 7:20Greg Jenner?

  So Justinian became Emperor Justinian I.

• 7:24Speaker 06

  Oh, I only had four months' training, how do I run this thing all on my own?

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Nephew, remember, teamwork makes a dream work.

• 7:36Greg Jenner?

  Justinian decided that he preferred to co-rule with a partner, so in-stepped his super-smart wife, Theodora, to rule with him.

• 7:45Speaker 06

  Oh, you're the perfect replacement for my uncle.

• 7:49Greg Jenner?

  Babe, that's um, such a weird thing to say about your wife. Ruling together, Justinian and Theodora did some really incredible things. Justinian and Theodora: The Most Exciting Reign. Doing things like... Legal and tax reform.

• 8:07Speaker 06

  No, wait, how is that exciting? You know, that-that's it, I quit! No, no, I quit! And I'm taking this orchestra with me! Come on!

• 8:23Greg Jenner?

  It is exciting though. Justinian's legal reforms were really important. Before him, the laws were all messy and scattered, and he replaced them with something he called the Code of Justinian.

• 8:34Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, I called it the Corpus Juris Civilis, but then I do speak Latin, so...

• 8:40Greg Jenner?

  Alright, show off. Amazingly, this code still influences modern laws today. Theodora was likely responsible for some very important new laws, which improved the lives of women and girls. And punishments for men who harmed women were made more severe, and more protections were put in place for professional girlfriends.

• 8:59Speaker 06

  Wow, great law reforms, babe. You're smart, powerful, attractive, just like my dead uncle.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Okay, you've really gotta stop saying that.

• 9:11Greg Jenner?

  A lot of this law work was supervised by a guy called Tribonian. Clever man, silly name. Another bloke with an important job and a great name was Justinian's pal, John the Cappadocian. He reformed the tax system so that rich people paid more taxes.

• 9:28Greg Jenner?

  Unfortunately, one of the ways he did this was by, uh, torturing them. This was not popular.

• 9:35Speaker 05

  Babe, uh, there's an angry mob outside burning the city to the ground and killing people?

• 9:41Speaker 06

  Aw, booer.

• 9:46Greg Jenner?

  Remember the chariot racing our power couple were super into? Well, it was very political, this sport. Two of the biggest teams were the Blues, Justinian's favourite...

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Come on, you Blues!

• 9:59Greg Jenner?

  And their rival team, the Greens.

• 10:02Speaker 04

  Greens is grot, hope they rot, they're the colour of some snot!

• 10:08Greg Jenner?

  Well, these two teams decided to join forces.

• 10:12Speaker 04

  Come on, you Turk-Wars?

• 10:15Greg Jenner?

  To overthrow Justinian.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Wait, what? But you're my team! I just shelled out for the new away shirt!

• 10:23Greg Jenner?

  These so-called Nika riots got very scary. Rioters burned the Royal Palace, and the original Hagia Sophia, and the Bath House.

• 10:34Greg Jenner?

  Justinian saw the violence consuming the city and bravely declared...

• 10:39Speaker 06

  I am outta here!

• 10:43Greg Jenner?

  But Theodora was having none of it. One ancient historian wrote that she persuaded him to stay by saying:

• 10:50Speaker 05

  "At the moment of desperate danger, one must do what one can. Every man born to see the light of day must die. But that one who has been emperor should become in exile? It cannot be."

• 11:06Greg Jenner?

  Also known as:

• 11:07Speaker 05

  "Babe, getting bonnied out of a job by your favourite sports team is a massive X."

• 11:12Greg Jenner?

  Wise advice. We should say that Theodora's speech was recorded by a guy called Procopius, who might not be that trustworthy, as he also claimed that Justinian was a devil who walked around without a head.

• 11:26Speaker 06

  You what? Can historians just lie like that? Greg, set the record straight!

• 11:32Greg Jenner?

  Okay, uh, Justinian definitely had a head.

• 11:35Speaker 05

  Thank you, Greg.

• 11:36Greg Jenner?

  Justinian and Theodora stayed in Constantinople until the Nika riot stopped, and our power couple then rebuilt the city. And in 533 CE, Justinian began to turn his head, still attached to my body, towards the west. He really wanted to conquer Rome. But that would mean battling those thrash metal tribes from earlier on.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Battle of the bands! The Vandal!

• 12:04Speaker 04

  Versus a happily married couple!

• 12:08Greg Jenner?

  Justinian won!

• 12:12Speaker 04

  And for ownership of Rome, the Ostrogoa!

• 12:20Speaker 04

  Versus a happily married couple!

• 12:26Speaker 04

  And the lovey dovey couple have won again!

• 12:33Greg Jenner?

  And by the year 537 CE, our power couple had the keys to the Eternal City. Ta very much! Oh, the dream of every young married couple! Finally, Rome owners. Oh, thank you. In 545 CE, Justinian and Theodora also secured a truce with Persia, one of Rome's greatest military threats in the east.

• 12:58Speaker 05

  Things are going great, baby. Together we'll rule in peace for decades. Oh, hang on, I, I just feel a tiny bit ill.

• 13:08Greg Jenner?

  Sadly, Theodora died in the year 548 CE.

• 13:13Speaker 06

  Oh, alone again.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  Dearest husband, always remember.

• 13:19Speaker 06

  Teamwork makes the dream work, so I should replace you with yet another co-emperor?

• 13:24Speaker 05

  Oh, no, no, no, no, definitely don't do that. Remember that I was brilliant and irreplaceable. Okay, bye, don't touch my stuff.

• 13:35Greg Jenner?

  And that is how Justinian remembered her. He described her as.

• 13:38Speaker 06

  Our most pious consort, given us by God.

• 13:44Greg Jenner?

  Oh, sweet. Justinian ruled the empire alone until his death in 565 CE, when he was replaced by Justin, his own nephew.

• 13:54Speaker 06

  I'm keeping up the family tradition of being the best uncle ever.

• 14:01Greg Jenner?

  And if that wasn't nepo baby enough, young Justin's wife was also Theodora's niece.

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Look, babe, if you're getting the best uncle award, I'm being the best aunt.

• 14:12Speaker 06

  Oh, love you, babe. Ghost kiss.

• 14:19Greg Jenner?

  Theodora was even made a saint. It was a far cry from pig farmers and goose dancers. So, how much do you remember from today's speedy history lesson? Let's find out. Pencils are ready. Question one, what was the main city that Justinian and Theodora ruled from?

• 14:40Speaker 05

  Constantinople, now called Istanbul.

• 14:44Greg Jenner?

  Question two, where did Justinian and Theodora meet?

• 14:49Speaker 06

  Watching chariot racing at the Hippodrome.

• 14:52Greg Jenner?

  And question three, what was the name of the riots which threatened to overthrow Justinian and Theodora?

• 15:00Speaker 05

  The Nika Riots.

• 15:02Greg Jenner?

  Well done. Join us next time for another snappy history lesson. And if you're a grown up and want to learn more about Justinian and Theodora, listen to our episode of You're Dead to Me with Professor Peter Frankopan. Thank you for listening. Bye. This was a BBC Studios audio production for Radio 4. Dead Funny History was written by Jack Bernhardt, Gabby Hutchinson-Crouch and Dr Emma Nagouse. It was hosted by me, Greg Jenner, and performed by Malley Anne Rees and Richard David Caine. The script consultant was Professor Peter Frankopan.

• 15:35Speaker 07

  Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is the AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you. And Claude isn't just for quick questions. Hand it a whole task, like turning a folder of scattered notes into a report, and it does the work and hands back something finished that you can open and edit. Claude can now draft a doc or deck right in front of you, and Claude Design now lives right inside Claude. Describe the website or prototype you're picturing, attach your design system, and it comes back in your own design language, ready to edit right on the canvas. It works with your files and the tools you already use, like Gmail and Slack.

• 16:20Speaker 07

  And whether you're debugging code at midnight, building a financial model, or strategising your next business move, Claude extends your thinking to tackle the problems that matter for problems worth solving. Get started with Claude at claude.ai/solve. That's claude.ai/solve. And check out Claude Pro, which includes access to all of the features mentioned in today's episode. Claude.ai/solve. In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie, and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. It's one of the first times, really, that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers.

• 17:05Speaker 07

  If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure. In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.