#2503 - Eric Weinstein

Eric Weinstein, PhD, is a mathematician, former managing director of Thiel Capital, and a manager of the Galileo Project research team. He is the originator of the Intellectual Dark Web and creator of Geometric Unity: a proposed geometrically unified theory of fundamental physics.www.youtube.com/@EricWeinsteinPhDwww.geometricunity.orgwww.eric-weinstein.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://squarespace.com/ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. MANSCAPED® 15% OFF your entire order. Visit https://manscaped.com/joeroganexperience Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Train my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  I was like, there's only one way to do this, I have to just not drink for a while. So I took like eight months off and then I had like a margarita dinner once, I was like, oh I missed this. And then I had a glass of wine here and there.

• 0:24Speaker 03

  I was wondering how that was gonna hold up.

• 0:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 0:26Speaker 03

  But you're not, I know that you're not captured by it.

• 0:29Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  Neither am I, but our religious observance requires it.

• 0:33Joe Rogan?

  You require abstinence or drinking?

• 0:36Speaker 03

  No, we drink.

• 0:37Joe Rogan?

  What, when do you have to drink?

• 0:38Speaker 03

  Shabbat, every, come, any Friday.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  How much do you drink on Shabbat?

• 0:43Speaker 03

  I probably have two and a half glasses of wine.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  Is there like a number that you're supposed to hit?

• 0:47Speaker 03

  No, there's a communal cup. What? Well, that's Purim.

• 0:51Joe Rogan?

  What is?

• 0:51Speaker 03

  We should get into Purim.

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  We're getting into it.

• 0:53Speaker 03

  Alright.

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Do we need glasses? You wanna have a drink?

• 0:56Speaker 03

  Uh, usually I, you and I tend to go a while, so we usually do that at the end.

• 1:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, let's, let's get some ice and some gla- are we rolling already? I've been rolling, yeah. Okay.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  Oh shit.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  Let's get some, tell Jeff to get us some ice and some glasses.

• 1:07Speaker 03

  I didn't know we were.

• 1:07Joe Rogan?

  And a bottle of, uh, Buffalo Trace. Do you wanna wait till I get back to start? Cause we either haven't started or we started. We started, fuck it. We started, let's just roll. We'll get Jeff to do it.

• 1:21Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 1:23Speaker 03

  But I don't have headphones.

• 1:23Joe Rogan?

  Are we rolling still?

• 1:24Speaker 03

  Are we doing headphone shit?

• 1:25Joe Rogan?

  We can, headphones, no headphones, I don't give a fuck.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  I don't give a fuck.

• 1:28Joe Rogan?

  We, we mix it up.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:29Joe Rogan?

  You know? What do you, do you, are you more comfortable? You got a nice head of hair.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:32Joe Rogan?

  See, for me, it doesn't matter. I feel bad when people like work on their hair real good, like especially ladies, and they get it all nice and then they have to fucking smoosh it with this thing.

• 1:40Speaker 03

  Okay, if you ever have that kind of consideration for me, I'm gonna be very disappointed. I thought we were closer.

• 1:46Joe Rogan?

  Some people worry about that.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  No, I worry about the gray.

• 1:50Joe Rogan?

  That you have gray in your hair?

• 1:51Speaker 03

  It's, yeah, look, it.

• 1:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're like pretty dark for your age. How old are you now?

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Sixty.

• 1:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're, you have fucking dark ass hair for your age. If I let my, if I had hair and it grew out, like my side hairs, it's mostly gray now.

• 2:05Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 2:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  I should have thought ahead like you did.

• 2:11Joe Rogan?

  What, shaved it?

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, shaved it when everyone knew it wasn't gray and then it's just normal. Because it's very clear if I shave it now.

• 2:17Joe Rogan?

  I think you can avoid gray hair with proper supplementation. At least that is the the thought today. That with enough zinc and copper. And that somehow or another that's involved in the diet. I don't know, I'm talking out of my ass here. I don't know that much about what causes your hair to go gray.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  This is Austin tap?

• 2:39Joe Rogan?

  Other than, this is Buffalo Trace, older than America.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Really?

• 2:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is a distillery from seventeen seventy-three, I believe they started.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:51Joe Rogan?

  Them apples, huh?

• 2:52Speaker 03

  It's like that Chinese sounding beer, Yunling or something. Cheers, my friend.

• 2:56Joe Rogan?

  Buffalo Trace is like, why is their their beer really old? Beer really old?

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  They have an old beer?

• 3:06Speaker 03

  Yunling.

• 3:08Joe Rogan?

  Is it old as fuck?

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Jamie knows everything.

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  He knows a lot.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  You know, people.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Eighteen twenty-nine.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  You see?

• 3:15Speaker 03

  People say, I have this AI, I'm using Claude, I'm using ChatGPT.

• 3:20Joe Rogan?

  I use Jamie.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Jamie, right, for sure.

• 3:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's way better than AI. He's way better than AI because he's kind of psychic. You're a little psychic, right? A little bit.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I've listened to you talk a lot.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  My my theory is, is that he also looks ahead. He knows sort of where you're likely to head, so he's got it ready.

• 3:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, a hundred percent. He knows how my goofy fucking brain works. Yeah, for sure. Good to see you, my brother.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Good to see you. Hello, Joe.

• 3:44Joe Rogan?

  How is your your? What was it exactly? How would you describe it? A speech, a presentation?

• 3:51Speaker 03

  I gave a talk on dark energy to the Karch Group at the U Texas, U Texas Austin Physics Department.

• 3:58Joe Rogan?

  This is one I wanted to ask you about. Michio Kaku has been saying that he believes that dark energy is possibly something leaking in from another dimension? Is that? Look at that face. Look at that.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  Go on.

• 4:13Joe Rogan?

  He gave a little side eye. Well, let's see what he says. James, see if you can find that, please. I think he said it was gravity leaking-

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Hands from different colonies and put them together as a kid, just to see what happens.

• 4:26Joe Rogan?

  Did I? No, I never did that.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  I did that.

• 4:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, why? Just watch them fight?

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you fucking psycho?

• 4:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 4:32Joe Rogan?

  No, I never did any of that.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  You were saying about Michio.

• 4:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that he, I, I just, I didn't even read it. I just saw it and went, oh, Jesus, I gotta talk to Eric about this.

• 4:43Joe Rogan?

  Michio, just dark matter isn't matter at all. It's gravity leaking in from a parallel dimension. And this guy won't do mushrooms. Isn't that wild?

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 4:56Joe Rogan?

  What do you think about that?

• 4:56Speaker 03

  You remember when I was here and I said, get Michio Kaku in here with me?

• 5:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What, what is, what is about, well, clearly he's a brilliant guy.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  He, he is and was a brilliant guy. He's decided to do something else. And to be entirely honest, I don't love going after other named people. And in general, my shtick is that I go hard after institutions. I'm a huge institutional supporter and their worst nightmare in the current world. Individuals I don't like beefing with. I, I watch all of the energy, the beauty of life lost to beefing with people. Michio Kaku is doing a tremendous amount of damage to theoretical physics.

• 5:37Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 5:39Speaker 03

  Um.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  Theoretical physics is, in my estimation, the most beautiful, most powerful, most economically potent thing you can do with your life.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  And we are the best. The United States is, in my opinion, the greatest nation in the history of the earth for theoretical physics. Because we are cowboys, we are irreverent. We are the, we are the people who invented the atomic and hydrogen bombs, the semiconductor.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  This is what we do, and we've lost the ability to do it at a level that I cannot believe happened during my watch, my lifetime. So from 1984 to the present, those 42 years have been the greatest intellectual implosion, I think, that I know of, where people just got dumber.

• 6:36Joe Rogan?

  And what do you think is the cause of that? I'm going to disconnect this.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  String theory. Quantum gravity.

• 6:41Joe Rogan?

  Quantum gravity did?

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Yep. 1984, there was a result, and it's called the Green-Schwarz anomaly cancellation. And the guy that I've talked to you about before in UFO context, the guy who is Lewis Witten's son, Lewis Witten, happy birthday, turned 105, was the anti-gravity guy from the 50s. His son, Edward Witten, decided that the 1984 Green-Schwarz anomaly cancellation meant that we should all, all the smartest people should pile into one narrow subspecialty, and that that was the future. And because he was so much smarter than all of us, people listened, and I didn't.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  And Michio Kaku is part of his wave. Almost all of the people that you've traditionally had on in physics have some connection to this. So you've had on, I don't know, probably Sean Carroll, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Greene. Nobody wanted to say what was happening, which is that we were being unraveled and destroyed. Our ability to be the world's greatest theoretical physicist was being eroded year by year for 42 years.

• 7:59Joe Rogan?

  And specifically, the pursuit of string theory?

• 8:02Speaker 03

  It's not string theory itself that's the problem. String theory is harmless. It's just a bunch of equations, a bunch of ideas, and it's beautiful mathematics in many places. So. That's not an issue. The issue is the exclusion of everything else. And this goes under the name TOGIT, or the only game in town. T-O-G-I-T. And it's this idea that only we, the enlightened, can do theoretical physics and the rest of you are just doing finger exercises and you're too stupid to know it.

• 8:36Joe Rogan?

  So specifically, like, what is... What's isolationist about string theory? Like, what is it about this one particular theory that all this thought has been pushed into that? This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part? It's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death.

• 9:17Joe Rogan?

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• 10:01Joe Rogan?

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• 10:45Joe Rogan?

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• 11:53Speaker 03

  The claim is that there's this thing called UV complete physics. There's no way that we can have a discussion about that directly. If I could ask Jamie, could I impose upon you to call up on YouTube Wheel of Fortune and then use, "I've got a good feeling about this." I can explain it to you.

• 12:17Joe Rogan?

  Wheel of Fortune, "I've got a good feeling about this."

• 12:19Speaker 03

  I've got a good feeling about this.

• 12:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Is that an episode of Wheel of Fortune?

• 12:22Speaker 03

  It'll be over briefly. It's very, very quick. It's about a minute and a half or something. And the key point is it's a tight analogy for the problem faced in physics that anyone can understand. So I don't, people think I try to make things complicated. I really try to make them understandable, but what I do is I talk about things. I don't know that you've ever had anyone talk about UV completeness on the Joe Rogan experience.

• 12:45Joe Rogan?

  I don't believe so.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:47Joe Rogan?

  Is this it?

• 12:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're not gonna be able to hear it unless you have headphones on.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  I know it like the back of my hand.

• 12:54Joe Rogan?

  Wheel of Fortune.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Uh, we need a phrase this time. That's the category for this puzzle, and it is a prize puzzle.

• 13:05Speaker 05

  Go ahead, Rick. Gladly.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  And what do we get here? 500. R. Boy, you'd think there'd be an R in there somewhere, wouldn't you?

• 13:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Rick.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  Obviously, who called it? Caitlin.

• 13:30Speaker 06

  L.

• 13:31Speaker 05

  Uh, one L.

• 13:36Speaker 06

  Did you really solve?

• 13:37Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 13:38Speaker 06

  Can I solve?

• 13:41Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 13:41Speaker 06

  It is a prize puzzle.

• 13:42Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 06

  I've got a good feeling about this.

• 13:47Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 13:48Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 13:51Joe Rogan?

  That lady's a wizard.

• 13:53Speaker 03

  That lady is what I want to do with my life. That is what great physics looks like. It's totally irresponsible. And, you know, Pat Sajak is like trying to ask her, like, how'd you do that? And she says, "Well, I had a good feeling about this." You know, and the funny part about it is, you can figure it out. The, if you, if you go back, can, Jamie, can you show the board right there? Yeah. So clearly, that apostrophe is a huge clue, right? So the idea is that if you read that property, is it isle? Is it iv? Right? And then, there's no R.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  So, think about all of those blank squares as orders of magnitude that you are away from the energies that would allow you to do experiments that would explain physics. And think about the apostrophe, the L, and that pattern, as well as the fact that there's no R, as the standard model of physics. So right now, what you have is a debate about whether or not we should buy more and more letters with higher and higher energy. Or, like, should we build bigger accelerators and spend more treasure trying to collide particles? Or should we just Caitlin our way out of this? So Caitlin Burke is my model of what I think we're supposed to be doing.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  So an exceptional mind with an ability to see or propose things that other people aren't seeing.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  How, I guarantee you that if we studied this, if we spent a month with the world's smartest people on this puzzle, we'd learn that there are certain things that were present that, you know, the frequency of certain, the fact that there's a single letter there that almost certainly is I or A. She took a tiny number of clues. But here's the really important thing. Jamie, can we show the filled-in puzzle? So you'll notice that the word "this" could be changed to "that" because the only letter that's been excluded is an R.

• 15:57Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  So that is what the issue of unique UV completion is. In other words, a unique UV completion would say, there's only one phrase that fits there. She guessed, she couldn't have known it isn't "I've got a good feeling about that" or "I've got a nice feeling about this or that." So it's actually not, or "I'll get a good feeling about this," but all of those were much less probable because they're just not as natural. So this is a combination of science, guesswork, and raw courage. Like, the most marvelous thing about that exchange is she says, "Can I solve?" And there's like, he's not even sure he's hearing her properly.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  And then finally, he says, "Okay." That's gatekeeping. Can I put this article on the archive? Can I give a seminar in your department? I want to solve the puzzle. And a lot of what we're arguing about is that the string theorists are the only ones who have the right to try to solve the puzzle at the moment. So imagine that somehow there's a rule that only Rick, poor Rick, who guesses that there's an R, imagine that he's the only one allowed to solve the puzzle, and when she asks, "May I solve the puzzle?" No, no, no, you can't. That's pseudoscience. You're a charlatan. That's, you know, that is crank physics.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  So that's what the problem that we're facing is, is that we've got one group that got control of the gatekeeping, who is very good at mathematics, extremely bad at physics. And they've redefined what physics is and what good science is, where they're the only ones who are guessing the puzzle. They can't guess the puzzle. And everyone else is like, here's a crazy story from yesterday.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  I wasn't allowed to say that I gave a talk in the physics department, even though any normal person would say that that happened. And I wasn't allowed to do that when I visited a physics institution in Canada. I wasn't allowed to say that I was visiting for a week, nor was I allowed to say that I gave a seminar that lasted nine hours.

• 18:11Joe Rogan?

  But you just did.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:12Joe Rogan?

  Are you a lawbreaker?

• 18:14Speaker 03

  I'm breaking the rules now because I've, now I've had it. I agreed, I agreed to not do this. And with these missing scientists, I've changed my mind.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  I'm not going to deal with these people anymore. And whatever is going on with science and the suppression of different ideas

• 18:35Speaker 03

  is terrifying.

• 18:39Speaker 03

  Right now, we have a situation. I gave a talk at the University of Chicago. There's no record of it.

• 18:46Joe Rogan?

  Who's asking you to do these talks and who's asking you to not give a record? You don't have to name names.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, particular people. In general, the funny part is that the people who ask me to give talks in the physics departments are the most courageous person in each department.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  So the problem is that the person that I, you end up feeling resentful towards, how dare you tell me that I can't give this talk in this department officially, is the person who's arranging for your stay.

• 19:14Speaker 03

  And is arranging for the room. And they are under the most pressure from the institution.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  So the institution is forcing them to say, you're allowed to give the talk, but you're not allowed to talk about it on social media, you're not allowed to advertise that you're doing it, you're not allowed to say that you're doing it.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  So in this case, in the case of U Texas Physics Department, I was allowed to say, I'm speaking in the Karch Group Seminar. It's like a condom to make sure that the physics department doesn't get pregnant.

• 19:43Joe Rogan?

  But isn't that really bizarre? Because University of Austin, Texas was supposed to be a university that fixed all the bullshit that was wrong with other universities.

• 19:53Speaker 03

  Oh, it's much, much more insane than that. This was the home of Steven Weinberg, who moved from Harvard to Texas because the money, the oil money was used to buy brains. So basically, Texas raided Harvard for people like John Tate, the math department, Steven Weinberg, who was probably the greatest living theorist. And that was the continuation of the Bryce DeWitt Group from North Carolina Chapel Hill that was set up to do anti-gravity by Agnew Baines. So you're right next to an amazing physics department with a crazy history that in fact touched anti-gravity. This is one of the, one of the tiny number of places that has a real legacy in that

• 20:38Speaker 03

  department. And I was speaking there on gravity, on dark energy. And, look, I've been lying my whole life about my relationship with the physics world because of this pressure. They can't listen to me if I say I'm a physicist, so I say I'm an entertainer. Yeah. But people say, well, why would you do that? Why would you say that you're an entertainer when you obviously are conversant in all this stuff? And the answer is, I don't want to die. I don't want to lose my ability to enter a physics department. So I take on this completely wrong persona. And, you know, I have the emails. You're not giving a talk, you're having conversations in room 5308.

• 21:22Joe Rogan?

  It literally says you're not giving a talk?

• 21:25Speaker 03

  I could read what it is that they write to me.

• 21:27Joe Rogan?

  But what is the benefit of this formal declaration or this formal designation of the way you're talking?

• 21:34Speaker 03

  So when I was at a physics institute in Canada. I was told, we're worried that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself. It's like, I'm going to do that. Of course I'm going. I have a PhD from Harvard, you stupid. I, I mean, like, you, you guys imagine I'm, I'm, I'm a podcast guest?

• 21:58Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain and Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code ROGEN to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Right, just a regular dude with some wacky ideas.

• 22:30Speaker 03

  Right. And so the idea is I have to play that character as opposed to.

• 22:35Joe Rogan?

  Legitimizing yourself is a very bizarre phrase.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  Tell me about it.

• 22:39Joe Rogan?

  Cause it's assuming that you're not legitimate. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 22:44Speaker 03

  I don't think you're understanding this.

• 22:45Joe Rogan?

  But no, I am understanding it. But from their perspective, saying that you're going to use it to legitimize yourself and your ideas is a really crazy way to phrase it. Because like you're, they're acting from the assumption that you're not legitimate.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  So that's, they're, you remember when like, I think Reagan thought, I forget who it was, Reagan thought there were recallable missiles?

• 23:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could turn them around?

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:08Joe Rogan?

  Sorry, we changed our mind.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  So.

• 23:10Joe Rogan?

  Like a base jumper who's also a suicide jumper?

• 23:15Speaker 03

  On second thought.

• 23:17Joe Rogan?

  Halfway in, he's like, ah, fuck this. Nah, I like cheesecake.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of these people who survive jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge, they learn like, I love life.

• 23:24Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes, most of them.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  They're reborn.

• 23:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  So what I would say is, the problem is that I am, I don't, I don't, this is not a boast. As you know, I don't usually put my credential first. I'm probably the most blue chip defector from the institutions. Mutant, mutineer, let's put it, call it that.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  I have essentially perfect credentials.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  And that's the problem. So it's not a question of you're going to legitimize. I already legitimized myself by Harvard PhD, MIT postdoc, NSF postdoctoral fellow, O and R, top in the country, Sloan Foundation grantee. I've been in math, physics, economics departments. I'm so bulletproof.

• 24:12Joe Rogan?

  So that's the problem.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  That's the problem.

• 24:14Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem. It's not that you're a kook.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  That's what I was trying to say. You didn't understand.

• 24:18Joe Rogan?

  No, I do understand. I just don't understand why they want to do that, too. That's what's bizarre.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Narrative.

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  I am the greatest danger to the narrative.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  I'm the most followed mathematician in the United States, maybe the world, Hannah Frye, maybe above it.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  That danger to the narrative is the problem.

• 24:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, specifically for people that don't know what we're talking about, what is, to make this a standalone show, the people that not aware of your work, what is it about you and your ideas that they are so hesitant to platform?

• 24:56Joe Rogan?

  Or legitimize? Or why you're such a danger?

• 24:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so in 2001, I said mortgage-backed securities were a great danger to the world. I have one of the first published papers on the danger of illiquid, of the pricing of illiquid securities. I went on Chris Williamson's show and he asked me, who's going to win, Biden or Trump? I said, you don't even know whether Biden's going to make it to November. I said that the people, representatives of the Democrat Party, reached out to me and said, stop talking about Biden's dementia. You need your affirmation that you're seeing something real. We've put in three people as a committee to replace the president. And I said, like, I'm supposed to feel good about that?

• 25:38Speaker 03

  So I keep.

• 25:39Joe Rogan?

  What, they told you?

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:40Joe Rogan?

  They put in three people?

• 25:42Speaker 03

  They put in a committee of three people, and if you knew who those people were, you'd be pleased as punch, so shut up.

• 25:48Joe Rogan?

  That's what they said?

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, correct.

• 25:50Joe Rogan?

  You would be really happy, so shut up?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:52Joe Rogan?

  They didn't even tell you who the people were?

• 25:54Speaker 03

  I think that they did, and I've conveniently forgot them. One of them might have been the chief of staff.

• 26:00Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  So.

• 26:02Joe Rogan?

  It's like.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  But I say this, right? And I'm not trying to.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  I mean, I keep lots of secrets that people ask me to keep, that I should keep, things having to do with national security, for example. But these people are incompetent, and they're a danger to us. And right now, the string theory narrative is a complete danger. It's not string theory that's the problem. It's the only game in town. And so, you know, there was a... Look, people are willing to spend their entire credibility just to make me go away.

• 26:40Joe Rogan?

  Could you briefly just describe, like, what is the... So there's not a problem with string theory? Or is string theory not complete? Or is string theory... Has it reaped actual results?

• 26:52Speaker 03

  Mathematically, it's reaped results. And string theorists have occasionally done really great work in a subject called quantum field theory. But quantum field theory isn't about the quantum field theory of the world. Quantum field theory is like calculus. It's some thing that's very useful, and it grew up in physics. But we've now found out that quantum field theory has to do with pure problems in mathematics that have nothing to do with physics. And what they haven't done is they haven't dealt with the physical world. So if you take physics, why do we care about physics so much more than really almost any other aspect of the sciences other than biology?

• 27:33Speaker 03

  I had to give a talk at the New York Deep Tech Week, shout out to those guys. And I put it on the slide as three things. There's boom, vroom, and zoom. Easy to remember. Boom is weapons. Physics will create weapons. You'll dwarf everything else, with the possible exception of biologicals. Zoom... Vroom is energy. And the story of energy is basically the story of prosperity and control. If you look at wealth and the amount of fossil fuels burned, it's more or less like a one-to-one correlation as to which nations are rich and poor, per capita. And zoom is everything else.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  It's propulsion, it's computation, it's communication. And those things, if you take them together, more or less define the economy and the world order. Physics is the center of what makes us...

• 28:35Speaker 03

  Modern humans. And it became too dangerous in the 1950s. Even the 40s, you know, atomic weapons are extremely bad, but they're not hydrogen bombs. Somehow, in November of 52, everything changed. And we became, we became too dangerous. The, the community of physicists is the most powerful group of people made into completely ineffectual humans.

• 29:06Joe Rogan?

  And do you think this is by design?

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Partially.

• 29:08Joe Rogan?

  And what, what was the purpose of it? But by saying that you became, that physicists became too dangerous, the ideas became too dangerous, is the idea that the weapons would become so immense and powerful? That they had to do something to stop and curb that?

• 29:22Speaker 03

  Well, we didn't know how to control it, right? So in other words, for example, in the, in 1940, we set up something called the Reference Committee, which I'm sure your listeners have never heard of. And the Reference Committee lived inside of the National Resource Council. Now, why was it important? Because chain reaction physics was so hot. Once the neutron was found, right? So think about neutrons as bullets. They can go right into the middle of an atom because they're, they're not positively charged, so they're not going to be repelled by the nucleus. And they can bust apart atoms that are base, barely being held together. And that's why you, you get bullets, be getting bullets, be getting bullets, and that's what a chain reaction is. The people who were doing that in the 40, in the 30s, suddenly found that when they

• 30:07Speaker 03

  mailed off a paper to a journal, if they weren't part of the secret group in Los Alamos, their paper got held up and sent back for revisions. And there was no money in it. We secretly set up this thing to shunt real research into the National Resource Council. I think this was organized by a guy named Breit, B-R-E-I-T. And that was the beginning of this whole peer review control mechanism.

• 30:37Joe Rogan?

  And this control, do you think is this ego-based? That the people who are the gatekeepers want to remain in the position of?

• 30:44Speaker 03

  We all want to survive, Joe. I mean, this is a real problem. So you and I can hate on the institutions all we want from the safety of the JRE. But what are you going to do when it becomes really, really easy for people to commit?

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Like mass murder. If you think about all the really bad math, like the Vegas shooting that never really got sorted out, it's very hard to kill large numbers of people using things like bullets. If you want to really kill a large number of people, you're going to go to biologicals and you're going to go to nuclear. And what happens when that becomes easy? Like, maybe it's a lot easier to build these weapons than the way we currently do it. Right now, we're bottlenecked on things like centrifuges. And by the way, who knows what the next innovation in physics is going to bring? So I always say this thing, Pat, if you're not tracking everybody at my level, what are you doing as an intelligence service?

• 31:42Joe Rogan?

  Is this part of your concern about the missing scientists?

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So the missing scientist narrative, for people that aren't aware of it, I think they're up to 15 now, and a lot of people say that some of these connections are baseless and that some of them, it's just-

• 31:56Speaker 03

  We're not really up to 15.

• 31:57Joe Rogan?

  No. Okay. So what do you think we're actually up to?

• 31:59Speaker 03

  I don't know. Probably five or six.

• 32:03Joe Rogan?

  But I saw someone online did a breakdown of it, and essentially, they were saying that the odds of this being a coincidence are off the charts. That the people that are all involved in very specific types of technological research, different things that are top secret, that all of these people either wind up missing-

• 32:23Speaker 03

  There's a lot of murder in math and physics, first of all. People don't really appreciate that. You know, the Unabomber was a famous PhD mathematician.

• 32:32Joe Rogan?

  He's a big story, though. There's a lot-

• 32:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure. There was a guy named Cantor who broke into David Rittenhouse Laboratories in the University of Pennsylvania, where I was an undergraduate, and shot up a seminar. There was, you know, this situation in Iowa where a relative of mine got a seat in the physics department because somebody was killed by one of the graduate students. I think it became a movie, like Dark Matter. So there's an incredible amount of murder. The Balpeen Hammer killing of, was it Carl DeLu by-

• 33:12Speaker 03

  Stroleski at Stanford. So first of all, there's just a lot of death because mathematicians and physicists are somewhat close to unhinged. And it's a really nasty, there's a lot of nasty culture and sometimes it becomes violent.

• 33:27Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think they're close to unhinged?

• 33:32Speaker 03

  You spend that much time in your head? I'm amazed that I'm as well grounded as I am. No, seriously, you're just way out in the stratosphere. I completely forget who I am, where I am, that I'm even a human being. When you're using your body as an instrument, as you do in combat sports and training, you become a different thing. You know? You know that archery thing where you have to twist your arm? A lot of people don't know that they can do that initially, like just a small thing like that.

• 34:02Joe Rogan?

  What are you talking about? Archery thing that you twist your arm?

• 34:06Speaker 03

  If you have an old style bow, you often get burned by the...

• 34:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that you have to twist your arm like that?

• 34:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:13Joe Rogan?

  So that you're not like this and get hit?

• 34:15Speaker 03

  But you don't see, but then you twisted your wrist. You keep your wrist straight.

• 34:20Joe Rogan?

  I don't do that kind of archery. That's why I'm confused.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Well, okay, sorry. You do real...

• 34:24Joe Rogan?

  This kind.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:26Joe Rogan?

  You keep your hand like that.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:29Joe Rogan?

  That's a torque issue.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  But like if you're a sniper, you know, there are all sorts of things about breathing and how you adjust your eyes.

• 34:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:36Speaker 03

  You use your body as an instrument as a mathematician or physicist. One of the reasons that I wish I were in better shape is that in order for me to keep my mind in a particular way, I have to not think constantly about suppressing food. So you're doing a very unnatural thing. And that unnatural thing, not everybody can handle it.

• 35:01Joe Rogan?

  Right. I see what you're saying.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  And we snap. And also, our minds are more perfect. The messiness of the world and the perfection of our minds is at odds with each other. And I love disappearing into math and physics because it's perfect.

• 35:15Joe Rogan?

  But how's that lead to violence?

• 35:18Speaker 03

  You're upset because people are lying. Like the Unabomber had really interesting points. He wasn't a dumb guy. He was really correctly, you know, he has an amazing story called Ship of Fools. I highly recommend anybody read it, just the way Charles Manson's Look at Your Game, Girl is a great song.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  It's a great song.

• 35:42Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  We're not comfortable, in part, with coming back to the half-measures and the special pleading that sort of characterizes normal life. So, to get back to the missing scientist narrative, I don't think there are 15 missing scientists in this dataset. That's bullshit.

• 36:05Joe Rogan?

  It seems like they're adding as many as they can.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:08Joe Rogan?

  They're trying to make connections that don't seem to...

• 36:10Speaker 03

  Don't do that. It's like the junkification of the UFO narrative. All of these narratives have a junk to them so that... And I believe a lot of the junk is affixed to the narrative so that those who want to follow the institutional instruction to ignore the fact that this is happening can point to the crappiness.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Right? And so that's the out. And the really difficult thing that you do, and you do really well, is you try to piece together, okay, what's bullshit? What's real? There's a lot of real in the UFO story, and there's a lot of nonsense.

• 36:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  There's a lot of real in the COVID story and a lot of nonsense. The same thing is true for physics. But physics is more dangerous. And the fact that we're not tracking... Like, I always wonder why they allow me to come on the JRE and say stuff. I know a lot of stuff that I don't know what it unlocks.

• 37:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's easy to dismiss anybody who comes on here.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  Sure, but China's smarter than... And by the way, the LLMs. I mean, look, there are a lot of threads here.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  To get back to the physics, and I'm giving a talk tomorrow at the U-Texas Austin on supporting science, math, and physics, and renewing our commitment to it. I don't want to give the impression that it isn't dangerous or that the gatekeeping is stupid. It's really important to do great gatekeeping around mathematics and physics. It's cryptography, it's weaponry, it's propulsion, it's, you know, a sudden change in the world economy.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  If you figured out how to do fusion, it would have immediate geopolitical results.

• 37:54Joe Rogan?

  So these specific scientists that are missing, whatever the number is, five, six, that you think are legitimate, what specifically are they working on that's so dangerous?

• 38:04Speaker 03

  Well, the fusion guy, obviously, is at MIT, is anybody who might, I don't know, fusion isn't my thing, plasma isn't my thing.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  But that is unquestionably dangerous if you imagine how much depends on oil.

• 38:21Joe Rogan?

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• 39:06Joe Rogan?

  Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P dot com. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs.

• 39:48Joe Rogan?

  But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details. And is it a good assumption that if you have one incredibly brilliant person that's at the head of this thing, and they make a breakthrough, if you kill that guy, the whole thing is in disarray because the people that are under him,

• 40:33Joe Rogan?

  whatever people he has working with him, aren't as fully immersed in it as he is, that you can kind of like handicap a problem? It's like, let's say if there's-

• 40:44Speaker 03

  The top five people.

• 40:45Joe Rogan?

  It's an energy thing. Let's say if it's an energy thing. Let's say if someone has some new technology that's going to completely disrupt the fossil fuels industry.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:52Joe Rogan?

  And they go, listen, we can kill this fucking guy. And it's still coming down the pipe, but we'll delay it by 10 years and make 15 trillion dollars.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  So...

• 41:05Speaker 03

  This is a question about the far-right tail, like the extreme-right tail of human intelligence and ability. And if you think about certain areas where you have a dominant figure, Rodney Mullen in skateboarding, for example. What percentage of all tricks derive from Rodney Mullen? You couldn't have stopped skateboarding, but you could certainly have held it back by getting to Rodney Mullen. Right? When it comes to guitar, the amount of impact that Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen had is just wildly disproportionate. You know, when I was doing my podcast, I was really excited to do Rodney Mullen and Eddie Van Halen together. I wanted to get them, you know, totally different sports. But-

• 41:52Speaker 03

  Those two guys are sort of the same. They just created so much vocabulary you can't even imagine it. And-

• 41:58Joe Rogan?

  Eddie Van Halen doesn't get the credit he deserves either.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Oh, tell me, talk to me.

• 42:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just, Van Halen became Van Hagar. And it became a different kind of music. And I think a lot of the original hardcore fans left, but a lot, I think it got more popular with-

• 42:20Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 42:20Joe Rogan?

  Sammy Hagar, but it was a different kind of music. And, not that it's bad, but it's different. And then I think a lot of people just went, nah. But like, if you go like to, you know, some of the like, big Van Halen with David, I think Van Halen with David Lee Roth in his prime was a, literally a perfect band. It was phenomenal. That was, they were the shit when I was in high school. I mean, it was, everybody had Van Halen on their notebooks. They made the VH-

• 42:49Speaker 03

  I remember it.

• 42:50Joe Rogan?

  They were awesome. And they were so good. And Van Halen, and Eddie specifically could shred so hard in some of those classic riffs. I just don't think in the mainstream world, he got the credit that he deserves.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  I see it differently.

• 43:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, people mention Clapton, who of course is a great wizard. Always it's number one is Hendrix. Most people have Hendrix as number one because he was so revolutionary.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Well, nobody's gonna say Alan Holdsworth.

• 43:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't know who he is.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 43:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  I mean, my, my point is, is that,

• 43:25Speaker 03

  David Lee Roth kept Eddie Van Halen from becoming Alan Holdsworth. And,

• 43:32Speaker 03

  that's-

• 43:32Joe Rogan?

  Who's Alan Holdsworth?

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Oh, that's interesting. Alan Holdsworth, like if you talk to your hot shit guitarist friends, they will very often, like everybody will just pause and say, well, yeah, that's Alan Holdsworth.

• 43:46Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 43:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's sort of like listening to a modem for normal human beings. Right? That's why it's just not popular. And so Eddie Van Halen was this-

• 43:57Joe Rogan?

  Who did he play with?

• 43:59Speaker 03

  I don't know, Alan Holdsworth.

• 44:00Joe Rogan?

  Just by himself?

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:02Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  Can we just actually weirdly put Alan Holdsworth? Just like choose something with a-

• 44:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, we'll listen to some of his music. We might have, we'll edit it out of the episode because otherwise we get dinged on YouTube.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Okay, why don't we, okay.

• 44:12Joe Rogan?

  But we'll play it, we'll play it, and then we'll just come right back to it.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  All right, let's do that.

• 44:16Joe Rogan?

  Give me something, Jamie. Was it, is there any specific song that you'd like?

• 44:19Speaker 03

  No at all. It's all mind melting.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  Just checking to see if he's got anything popular we might have known, so I could tack, tap into that, but I don't see nothing.

• 44:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, is there a song that you like, that you could recommend?

• 44:32Speaker 03

  I just listen to a certain amount of it and then I don't listen to it again. I'm not at that level where I need Alan Holdsworth.

• 44:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  What does that mean?

• 44:40Speaker 03

  No, I'm-

• 44:40Joe Rogan?

  What does that mean? Thank you, Jamie.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  I'd rather see some guy flying through the air with like, his pants on fire than listen to Alan Holdsworth.

• 44:49Joe Rogan?

  Panama, town, town.

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  Okay, here we go.

• 44:52Speaker 04

  Live in Tokyo.

• 44:53Joe Rogan?

  1984, Live in Tokyo.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  Tokyo Dream.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  See if you can use the histogram to figure out like where the nerds are going.

• 45:07Joe Rogan?

  Hystogram?

• 45:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, it shows you like where people spend their time on a video.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  No, it's a hot and hot.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  I would go right into the middle of it or something.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  I'm already checking, what's he doing?

• 45:24Speaker 04

  These concerts sell out, or?

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Nothing's going on right now.

• 45:27Joe Rogan?

  Put it in the middle, Jamie.

• 45:55Speaker 04

  What is, is that, you've heard this before, though?

• 45:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:58Speaker 04

  What, is that a bass? What is the other guitar I'm hearing? Cause that is not matching up with what that bass player seems to be playing. Do you hear that extra guitar?

• 46:10Speaker 04

  That's slower and off time?

• 46:13Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 46:21Speaker 04

  That's a bass, I think. It doesn't sound like it's playing.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  My guitarist friends would just salivate. And I'll look at them.

• 46:29Joe Rogan?

  They need help.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  No offense, but it's...

• 46:37Speaker 04

  Can't be very...

• 46:38Joe Rogan?

  It sounds like jazz, right? So it's like jazz guitar. Like, there's no singing.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Apologizer.

• 46:46Speaker 03

  If I put on, if I...

• 46:51Speaker 03

  No more Jerry. I've had it.

• 46:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jamie.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  Jamie, you were gonna have so much nerd hate.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  I mean, I've...

• 47:00Joe Rogan?

  He gets that every day.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  People will agree with me, too, I believe.

• 47:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, 100%, more will agree with you. I'm on your camp.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  That was my point. I think David Lee Roth had some, uh, had some comment about, "If it weren't for me, the brothers would be, uh, playing biker bars in the Far Valley or something," you know? And so David Lee Roth came up with what we would call the syntactic sugar. The thing that made Van Halen fun and listenable and danceable, like Dance the Night Away.

• 47:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Just, I didn't like Van Halen. I loved that song. I never liked Van Halen.

• 47:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, how dare you.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  But I loved Eddie Van Halen and...

• 47:36Joe Rogan?

  You didn't like Van Halen?

• 47:40Speaker 03

  I didn't, you wanna, I'm not even embarrassed about that. The one I'm embarrassed about? I completely dismissed ACDC in real time because I'm an idiot. I've never been more wrong about something in my life.

• 47:53Joe Rogan?

  How did you dismiss ACDC?

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Good question. They had a dumb thing going on with the school pants and the Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap and...

• 48:03Joe Rogan?

  Fucking song.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  What a great song. Well, you know, like musically, Hot for Teacher is an amazing composition.

• 48:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Unbelievable, right? But, but it's, the key thing that they figured out is making things marketable.

• 48:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Right?

• 48:18Joe Rogan?

  And that's David Lee Roth.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  And I think it's David Lee Roth.

• 48:21Joe Rogan?

  No, he was so charismatic and did jumping splits. Yeah, he was a maniac.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Amazing. Amazing, and he had a, a secret weakness for old-timey music.

• 48:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Right, like Just the Jigolo, Ice Cream Man, all that kind of stuff. So he's like a, almost a throwback to nineteen thirties, for, you know, even earlier, Vaudeville.

• 48:42Joe Rogan?

  He's an odd guy. Have you ever met him?

• 48:44Speaker 03

  I've wanted, I've wanted to so badly. I'm so jealous.

• 48:48Joe Rogan?

  But I, I don't think you ever really get to him. It's always the show. Like in podcasts, it's a little, like, I really enjoy talking to him, but it's a little odd.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  I've seen, I didn't love the way he was. My, my feel, like, I would, I would go the Jewish angle. I, I would, I would connect to him based on shared cultural heritage. But what I think about Eddie

• 49:10Speaker 03

  is that Eddie wasn't just a guitarist. He, he was an electronics guy, was a keyboard player, he was handsome as the day is long, bursting with charisma. And like, you and I mostly don't know whether guys are good looking. I know Eddie Van Halen was good looking.

• 49:27Joe Rogan?

  Tell me more.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  He, he, he was the whole thing.

• 49:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 49:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 49:33Joe Rogan?

  Rock star.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so my feeling is, is that those two guys really, you know, it's, it's one of those things where you have two guys in a band that, you know, both of them are, are one, one in a billion kind of people and they happen to meet.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  I, I, I'm happy to be wrong about Van Halen, but I didn't do it in real time. I came to it later. But I remember the first time I heard Van Halen won. I had the same mystical thing. What is that? Nothing sounds like this. I've almost never had that in music, you know, the first time I heard Smells Like Teen Spirit, what is that? Those, you know, there are these moments where something discontinuous happens.

• 50:15Joe Rogan?

  But you heard, like, Ain't Talkin' About Love and that never got you?

• 50:19Speaker 03

  No, Panama doesn't get me.

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  Ain't Talkin' About Love is a fucking jam.

• 50:27Joe Rogan?

  When was the last time you listened to it?

• 50:30Speaker 03

  This year?

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  In nothing?

• 50:33Speaker 03

  It's not that. Well, okay, so part of the thing is, is that, do you, do you play an instrument?

• 50:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that is a problem. Yeah, I don't play anything.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  You know, the thing about Eddie Van Halen is, is that he accepted the geometry of the neck of the guitar. And very often you see musicians say, "I don't care what key it's in. I can figure out how to do anything." Eddie Van Halen didn't do that. He said, "Look, there's certain things that this thing makes possible, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna accept the limitations of the instrument and figure out how to push it in all sorts of ways." Another quote of his that I just love is this thing about,

• 51:14Speaker 03

  "If it doesn't cry, weep, moan, I don't care." He wanted all of those noises. And figuring out how to get those noises, figuring out how to make the guitar into more. This is a thing that obsesses people like Jeff Beck, or Roy Buchanan, or Eddie Van Halen, where they're just, they're in some other space, where it's no longer an instrument the way you and I see it.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  You know, I've never wanted a whammy bar on my instrument until I saw Jeff Beck do crazy stuff that just isn't possible.

• 51:54Joe Rogan?

  I never tell you I drove him around once?

• 51:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we had that on air. And that,

• 52:03Speaker 03

  you know, you've never had Derek Trucks on the program, have you?

• 52:05Joe Rogan?

  Tadashi Trucks?

• 52:07Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah.

• 52:08Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  That guy is not a human.

• 52:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he's amazing.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Amazing. And,

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  And there's a bunch of different people singing songs.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I, look, I care tremendously about the guitar. And the funny thing that I realized is that I stupidly mentioned guitars on JRE, and I got sent amazing guitars, and I had, I had Jamie sent a Quad Cortex.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  I should have mentioned like Lamborghinis or like jewels or something.

• 52:40Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't work. I've mentioned all those things.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  Okay. But I became friends with like the greatest guitarists of our time. And they're all suffering because nobody cares. And I heard, and I haven't seen it, that you had Marcus King.

• 52:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  On and talked about the death of rock.

• 52:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, I talked about the death of rock before and Marcus reached out. And that's why I had him on. He's like, man, rock's not dead. We're doing it every fucking night. And I was like, all right, come on, man, let's talk.

• 53:07Speaker 03

  And did you get to the blues, which he excels at?

• 53:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, we mostly just, we're talking about just music in general and his life and he's in it.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  Why did he give you a nice guitar?

• 53:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's beautiful, right? He's a cool motherfucker.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  He's a cool guy.

• 53:20Joe Rogan?

  And he's super talented, too.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  Never met him.

• 53:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's like these, these, this is what my, my conversation was about. Like, this is what prompted it, rather. Is that when I was a kid, rock and roll music was the big popular music.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 53:36Joe Rogan?

  It was all Rolling Stones, ACDC. These bands were huge. Zeppelin, they were fucking huge. They were the biggest bands. That's not the case anymore.

• 53:48Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 53:49Joe Rogan?

  And that's weird. And I, what I said is, I don't understand how a music genre that's so popular can stop being popular when it's still so good. Like, when we have Protect Our Parks and, you know, we'll play Free Bird, we still go nuts for that guitar solo.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  What happened to Free Bird? I'm pretty sure if you looked at Google's data, Free Bird was in, it went away for a long time. And then it got resurrected as a meme. Right? Because you can feel, right, this insanely long intro. Just so luxurious, you can't believe anybody would put up with it anymore. And then.

• 54:31Joe Rogan?

  It's two different songs.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  Right. Lord knows, I can't. Cha-ye-ye-ye-ye.

• 54:36Joe Rogan?

  And then all of a sudden it becomes alive.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Right? Fly high, Free Bird, yeah, and then duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. Suddenly, you're on fire.

• 54:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  You know, it's just like you want to fly an American flag, you want to shoot lasers, whatever it is. That feeling, I think, went away. And I think that, I think that Free Bird, if, I'd love to see the data, it came back. And in part, it was probably Trump and Elon and this re- we're in a masculinity crisis world over. And the masculinity crisis originally killed Free Bird and it brought it back.

• 55:14Joe Rogan?

  I think Free Bird was brought back by Protect Our Parks.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 55:19Joe Rogan?

  You think so?

• 55:20Speaker 03

  I-

• 55:21Speaker 04

  I mean, Google Trends says it's never really gone away.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, what, what is-

• 55:26Joe Rogan?

  There's a peak in 2010.

• 55:29Speaker 04

  There's a peak around December 9th to 2010.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Wait, that's 20-

• 55:33Joe Rogan?

  A peak in 2010? That's weird.

• 55:36Speaker 04

  Something could have happened. We could look it up.

• 55:37Joe Rogan?

  Wonder what it was?

• 55:38Speaker 04

  It probably was in a movie.

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it seems pretty steady.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Well, the reason that I said that is that I would make this reference because you used to be able to refer to Free Bird. It was a meme.

• 55:50Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Everybody knew it.

• 55:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people would yell it out.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  And then there was a period of time where no young person had any clue what I was talking about. And I, I know, oh, that's interesting. Because they, they still knew Stairway to Heaven. If you remember these like, top 500 songs of all time?

• 56:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  And then it would always come down to the last two, and it would always be Free Bird and Stairway to Heaven. Those were invariably-

• 56:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  Then suddenly, nobody knew what Free Bird was, and now everybody knows again. So I, I-

• 56:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  I, I will be, I will stand corrected, but there was a period of time where young people didn't know it.

• 56:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, is this Google Trends? Is that what that is now?

• 56:29Speaker 03

  So it's just people looking it up?

• 56:30Speaker 04

  I could even go like, that's probably when they put the video on YouTube for the first time, or it became available on Apple for the first time to download, and it wasn't only on App Store or something like that.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  But to go back to the, the blues aspect of it, it's blues-based rock that feels like that thing that you and I relate to.

• 56:47Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:48Speaker 03

  And-

• 56:49Joe Rogan?

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• 57:31Joe Rogan?

  Get 15% off plus free shipping with the code ROGEN15 at manscaped.com. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code ROGEN15 at manscaped.com.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  You know, we're not most, I'm really into the blues, but that's, it's its own controversy because when black audiences stopped showing up to blues shows, the performers got worse because the, the audience was a huge part of the experience. Can I tell you about this argument I got into with John Mayer about the blues?

• 58:04Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  So I ran into John Mayer. San Vicetti Bungalows. And I've been in awe of that guy intellectually. When he talks about music, I get so much out of it. It's just very perceptive, very brilliant guy. And so I was, you know, really excited to meet him. And we get into this discussion and I said, you're like a huge Stevie Ray Vaughan fan. And I said, I really don't get it. I like him. I think he's a great player, but I don't understand the focus. And he said, oh, I can explain that. He says, I came from the MTV generation and he was the blues packaged for us. Like a genius guy for sure, but packaged for MTV.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  He said, but you know, blues isn't really.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  Blues isn't a real musical form, it's an ingredient. I said, "What are you talking about?" He says, "Well, you would never go to a blues show."

• 59:07Speaker 03

  I said, "I can't believe I'm saying this to John Mayer, but I don't think you know what you're talking about."

• 59:13Joe Rogan?

  House of Blues. It's literally...

• 59:16Speaker 03

  Well, he meant something.

• 59:17Joe Rogan?

  A bunch of different venues.

• 59:18Speaker 03

  So, the thing is, is that I caught the end of black audiences, like, old black people, listening to the blues and paying for it. So, there's who pays and who plays. And black people are still paying for blues, but a lot of them aren't... I'm sorry, are still playing blues, but a lot of them aren't paying for it. So, when I go, for example, to see Cadillac Zach's Maui Sugar Mill show every Monday night, I go occasionally in Tarzana. It's like seventy-year-old and up white people. So, you see, like, hot chicks in their eighties in crop tops dancing. And that's what it is now. It's like a really old crowd keeping this thing alive.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  And I can't understand it, because it feels great, Joe.

• 1:00:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:00:05Speaker 03

  And that's the thing. It's just like, you know, Bonamassa, he does these cruises, keeping the blues alive. And my feeling is like, F that. We've got to actually get people back into understanding what it is. So, if you picture those huge bands in your youth, stop thinking about the band onstage rocking out and pan in your mind into the audience. And what do you see?

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Young people.

• 1:00:36Speaker 03

  Young people.

• 1:00:38Speaker 03

  What are they doing?

• 1:00:39Joe Rogan?

  Dancing, having fun.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  They're dancing. There's some chick in a crop top on some guy's shoulders rocking out.

• 1:00:47Joe Rogan?

  Free Bird.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  When hot chicks stop dancing to your music, it starts to hurt its death throes.

• 1:00:53Joe Rogan?

  Damn.

• 1:00:54Speaker 03

  And that's true with jazz. It's true with traditional R&B.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  And it's true with the blues, it's true with rock. And so, the important thing, and I keep telling people, is that you have to get people dancing. Once you start becoming intellectual, like Alan Holdsworth, nobody's dancing to Alan Holdsworth.

• 1:01:12Joe Rogan?

  Maybe you are.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  It's not my shit. You have no idea.

• 1:01:17Speaker 04

  I think the idea is to a Jamie. What do you think?

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  Honestly, you guys sound old as shit right now. There's so much music and rock music in arenas right now that's selling out.

• 1:01:27Joe Rogan?

  What is rock in arenas right now?

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  Just like there's a bunch of bands like Bad Omens, Baretooth. Korn just posted a video in Sao Paulo, Brazil, 50,000 people going crazy.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, like Meshuggah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  It's out there.

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  But it's not what you got. You guys don't like it either.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's not. It's not the big popular music that it was when I was a kid.

• 1:01:48Speaker 04

  There's only five artists in the world that are popular like all over the place right now.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  Because it's now micro, right?

• 1:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, because there's too many bands, there's too much music, too much content.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  The control of the institutions to tell us what we like has slipped. Right? And so in part, you know, like it was our version of Paola that,

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  you know, when I was growing up in LA, it was KMET and KLOS that determined, or KROQ. Those are the three stations that mattered. And they told us, here's the offering, boys.

• 1:02:24Speaker 03

  This is what's on tap. Right now, you know, are you into math core?

• 1:02:29Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that's it? It's the death of, because wow, now that you're saying that, I'm thinking the death of radio and the death of rock and roll. They sink.

• 1:02:40Joe Rogan?

  Because radio really stopped being a thing.

• 1:02:46Joe Rogan?

  Early 2000s? Early 2000s, radio stopped being a thing.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  Well, remember when LimeWire came through and everybody could get all the songs that they wanted.

• 1:02:55Joe Rogan?

  Right, that was an issue. But it felt like, if anything, I thought at the beginning when like Metallica was rallying and Lars Ulrich was railing against Napster. I'm like, these are just your fans. They're just your fans that are getting your music for free.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:03:08Joe Rogan?

  You're gonna have to adapt, but they still love you and, you know, don't you make most of your money touring or I don't know. I don't know what the economics of it are, but they're gonna change. This is a new thing.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  Now, micro markets, you know, just in prog metal, there are so many different flavors.

• 1:03:25Joe Rogan?

  I understand, but. What we're getting at is that the radio sort of dictated what became popular.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Joe Rogan?

  A lot of ways.

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Now video games.

• 1:03:34Joe Rogan?

  Things become popular in more of a sense of a viral way.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  Sure. Well, one thing is that these clips, if your clip gets picked up by TikTok and Instagram reels, that's, you know, some tiny fraction of a song is the catnip that leads everyone to your door.

• 1:03:52Joe Rogan?

  100%. I've downloaded many, many songs that way.

• 1:03:56Speaker 03

  But I was hanging with Misha Mansour, who was making the Jamie claim, like you got old grandpa. And his point, yeah.

• 1:04:05Speaker 03

  The thing is, I have at least the courage to hang out with actually cool people. He said, you know, his point was, you're just not even watching it correctly. And I said, what do you mean, Misha? He said, video games, video games, the music in video games matters much more than you imagine. And it's like totally right.

• 1:04:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that makes sense.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  And so, you know, what we are thinking about in get off, get off my lawn mode.

• 1:04:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  Is there was something lost and it hasn't been reborn anywhere. So that's the part that young Jamie is not getting correct. Something was just lost. Now, lots of new stuff sprouted up. But like EDM and DJing is really where a lot of that dancing hot chick energy went.

• 1:04:51Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that makes sense.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, right? And then like.

• 1:04:55Joe Rogan?

  And that's where guys want to go, where the dancing hot chicks are.

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  They will follow anywhere.

• 1:05:01Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Right? And, and you know, that's the whole, I was in.

• 1:05:05Joe Rogan?

  What's this, Jamie?

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  This is EDC Vegas 2026. This is just the example of what you're saying, like.

• 1:05:10Joe Rogan?

  Is this electronic?

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:05:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 04

  This is like as big as it gets. If I look at the stage, look at all these lights.

• 1:05:16Joe Rogan?

  I wonder if Molly didn't exist, how much of this would be out there?

• 1:05:20Speaker 04

  I mean.

• 1:05:21Joe Rogan?

  It's a good question, right?

• 1:05:22Speaker 04

  LSD didn't exist, how much of that music wouldn't have gotten big too?

• 1:05:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, a lot, yeah.

• 1:05:26Speaker 04

  But yeah, this is where all the girls hang out.

• 1:05:28Speaker 03

  Right. So I found myself in Vegas.

• 1:05:31Speaker 04

  Except for Ella Langley now is sort of antithesis, antithesis to that, but.

• 1:05:36Joe Rogan?

  What is?

• 1:05:37Speaker 04

  Ella Langley.

• 1:05:38Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  She's the biggest country artist in almost ever now. First female with like two top 100 songs ever.

• 1:05:46Joe Rogan?

  How am I so out of the loop?

• 1:05:47Speaker 03

  What is her, what's her big song?

• 1:05:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I know that song. That song's great.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  She's got another one now.

• 1:05:52Joe Rogan?

  And has she been around for a long time?

• 1:05:54Speaker 04

  Nope. Pretty new. She's like twenty-four, twenty-five.

• 1:05:56Joe Rogan?

  And she's killing it.

• 1:05:57Speaker 04

  Murdering it.

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  So, part of what's going on is there's no way to monitor. Like, even if you have really current, young people, they're monitoring a subset of what's going on. Nobody's tracking the whole thing.

• 1:06:13Joe Rogan?

  Right. And why country, though? Why is country exploding the way it's exploding?

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Well, because we're all in a meaning crisis. If you think about the way in which country music, for example, can develop a story through tropes very, very quickly.

• 1:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 03

  Right? And so, in part, the idea is that story songs and a return, you know, Try That in a Small Town, is transgressive.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  Try That in a Small Town is a really powerful message.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  You don't have to say a lot. And we all want the cowboy. We all want the girl at the county fair, you know? We just don't know how to get back to her.

• 1:07:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. We don't want a wholesome existence.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  You know?

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  I got a barbecue stain on my white t-shirt. That's Tim McGraw, right? Like, you know, she's killing it in that miniskirt, you know? Heart, don't forget something like that. Beautiful story. Very, very quickly told. And that's old now, but the point being,

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  hip-hop and its storytelling and the return to spoken word and poetry and the legacy of the Talking Blues had a great run, spread worldwide. You know, you talk about whites taking over. What do you mean whites? Like, Tamils? And, you know, indigenous Peruvians have taken over hip-hop in their local sectors. So hip-hop was just this great platform that once every local culture figured out some version of that. And I talk about, when I entered Bollywood, there was a song. I'm a dekht, ter mundu bigra jai. You know, mama, look, your child is being ruined.

• 1:08:09Speaker 03

  And it has this like, hey, mom, hey, dad, don't moan and groan. Why don't you learn to live with the times and please leave us alone?

• 1:08:18Joe Rogan?

  Which is every generation's message.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's like, it's delivered in, you know, boogie woogie, reggae rap, rock and roll and bhangra. You know, and it's like trying to, it was the first lame attempt at rap that I saw in a Bollywood film with Jackie Shroff. And they've all made it theirs. And so I was hanging out in India now with the DJ on his program, Untriggered. And it's changing the developing world at a level that rock and roll changed us. It was, you know, the music of liberation. John Mayer's point, of course, is that the guitar, the electric guitar retains the stylistic characteristics of cars in the 1950s.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  And that thing was the twin experience of having a car and having a guitar was, was personal expression and liberation for 50, for American males in the 50s.

• 1:09:14Speaker 03

  So, yeah, but I think a lot about our guitarist friends because they're suffering. The world's greatest guitarists are living today and nobody cares. They all follow each other. The funny thing is if you start following these people on Instagram, as I do, I look to see which of my friends are following the great guitarists. And it's other great guitarists. It's none of my normal friends. Like, how many of my normal friends know who Tim Henson is, a great Texas guitarist?

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  I do.

• 1:09:48Speaker 03

  This man.

• 1:09:49Joe Rogan?

  Do you?

• 1:09:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:09:50Joe Rogan?

  What kind of music?

• 1:09:51Speaker 04

  Oh, man, I can't even explain it. He pretty much invented a genre that only he mastered and is, can explain.

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  It's like Tex Mex melodic.

• 1:10:04Speaker 03

  If I had a glass and I broke it, if I took Tex-Mex and I broke it on the ground and I reassembled it from different things, it's completely angular and an idea will last, it's like a psychedelic thing where it'll last for five seconds and then it'll be on to the next thing and it's just angular and fragmented and sewn together and beautiful and inspiring.

• 1:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Gimme some, Jenny.

• 1:10:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have to play it for you, because the drummer and bass player also awesome, but it's pretty much revolves around the guitar.

• 1:10:31Speaker 03

  And you see, the thing is that they're so tight with each other that, you know, a better example even than this would be this thing that they released called Goat, which was the thing that put them on the map. And...

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  That was great.

• 1:10:48Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:10:48Joe Rogan?

  Let me hear Goat.

• 1:10:49Speaker 03

  Also, Tim is just like the loveliest human being.

• 1:10:52Speaker 04

  That's him as a young boy.

• 1:10:53Joe Rogan?

  Boy, that's him before he got all the crazy neck tattoos.

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  Well, that's just broken out. I don't know.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  It's not Tim, is it?

• 1:11:09Speaker 04

  They posted it. It says it's Tim.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  This is, this is a different, different human.

• 1:11:16Joe Rogan?

  Let's hear the song.

• 1:11:17Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:11:19Joe Rogan?

  I think that's someone posting a riff.

• 1:11:21Speaker 04

  That was their account.

• 1:11:22Joe Rogan?

  I know, but maybe he just put it up there.

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  By the way, do you hear the Mexican influence?

• 1:11:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  So, like, this is...

• 1:11:31Joe Rogan?

  Very unique, very unique sound.

• 1:11:33Speaker 03

  This is who I hang with. I love these guys. This is, this, this matters to me. And this is new, right? And just the way this, what, like, Antoine de Potrain that's taking over the world is basically, you hear the Middle East. But these guys are basically into microtones. If you take 24 beats, you can divide it by sixes, you can divide it by fours.

• 1:11:57Speaker 03

  So the mathematics of rhythm, you know, the stuff that like only Vinny Caiuto was able to do before people are sort of getting hip to, things that were happening on oud are now happening on microtonal guitars. And what it is, as I see it, is this like this violent birth of people bored by standard Western forms. And I'm for this. I'm not for all of the slop that, you know, like, young people are always into the coolest stuff. No, they're not. There are lame times, there are cool times. There's really cool stuff happening now, but it's,

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  it's the fact, particularly this Quebec kind of thing that broke out with these guys in costume.

• 1:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Huh?

• 1:12:44Speaker 03

  You don't know this? Antoine de Potraine, something like that. There's something-

• 1:12:49Joe Rogan?

  Quebec costumes?

• 1:12:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Look, you remember the Residents, who were this art group from San Francisco? Nobody knew who they were. They would have giant eyeballs as heads. And they would play completely insane things like Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire, but in angular bizarre ways.

• 1:13:05Joe Rogan?

  I missed that, too.

• 1:13:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:13:07Joe Rogan?

  Did you miss it? I don't know where we're going.

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  So Antoine de Potraine is this thing that took over, which doesn't sound like anything. It's like that new thing? So, you know, because-

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  So look at that guitarist Fred.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  Now, the mathematics.

• 1:13:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay, Jamie.

• 1:13:58Speaker 03

  The mathematics of this is that there's this freak fact, which is that if you take the octave, which is doubling in frequency,

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  you take the 12th root of it, break it into 12 semitones, and then take 19 of them stacked. 2 to the 19 over 12 is equal to 2.996 something. It's almost 3. And that means that you can force people into this quantized music, where you come up with this number 12, which is magical, for number theory reasons. And you can fool the ear into thinking that 19 of these 12 semitones is a complete tripling of frequency. And because of that, we've been in even-tempered music since the time of Bach. And these guys are breaking us out, together with Jacob Collier. They're saying, "Why would you accept that as a prison?"

• 1:14:47Joe Rogan?

  And so, how does stuff like this become popular? Is it just viral?

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:52Speaker 03

  Because suddenly you see two guys in costumes, don't look anything like anything you know, making music. There's a moment where it switches into 6 beats per unit, into 4 beats per unit, because it's on a 24 cycle. And suddenly, you just feel good.

• 1:15:10Joe Rogan?

  And also, if any of these guys get cocky, you can just swap them out.

• 1:15:17Joe Rogan?

  Put a mask on some new guy, get him in there.

• 1:15:19Speaker 03

  No, but it's anti-egoic. It's anti-egoic.

• 1:15:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  Right? So in part, you know, it's like Buckethead. Buckethead didn't want to be... Like, you have trouble being Joe Rogan. I even have trouble being Eric Weinstein. I'm a fraction of a Joe Rogan. It's hard to be well-known. And these guys are erasing themselves. And that idea of, you know, it's very funny. Tim Henson, I think, has a song called "Ego Death", with Steve Vai.

• 1:15:47Speaker 03

  "Ego Death" is really hot, because people are erasing themselves, is what everybody isn't trying to do, who's chasing clout.

• 1:15:56Joe Rogan?

  Right. And people like that.

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it's a form... Or, they don't just like that. They also don't mind if you're chasing clout, and you say, "I'm chasing some clout."

• 1:16:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  I'm trying to get that bag. So what they don't want is somebody saying like Bill Gates.

• 1:16:16Joe Rogan?

  Right. I'm just looking out for humanity and global health.

• 1:16:20Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:16:21Joe Rogan?

  So what I'm doing, I'm engineering ticks so that they bite you and you get allergic to red meat. And I'm dropping them off from helicopters.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  We're going to administer vaccines involuntarily through ticks.

• 1:16:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and mosquitoes.

• 1:16:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. So all of this stuff really bothers people. It's the diseng- well, it's the dis-

• 1:16:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also, he doesn't have any friends, you know, and he can't get any pussy anymore because he keeps getting caught.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  He can get it.

• 1:16:50Joe Rogan?

  But if we were smart, we'd feed that guy pussy.

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  We did.

• 1:16:53Joe Rogan?

  Keep him happy.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  We did.

• 1:16:55Joe Rogan?

  We? I wasn't involved.

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  Neither was I.

• 1:16:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, allegedly.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  What do you mean allegedly?

• 1:17:01Joe Rogan?

  Just kidding.

• 1:17:01Speaker 03

  I didn't go to that island.

• 1:17:03Joe Rogan?

  You didn't?

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:17:05Joe Rogan?

  No, you were one of the people that saw through him right away.

• 1:17:08Speaker 03

  No, but he offered me partnership and I didn't take it. And I regretted that for a while.

• 1:17:14Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:00Joe Rogan?

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• 1:18:45Joe Rogan?

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• 1:19:15Speaker 03

  I would have been made rich or deceased.

• 1:19:21Joe Rogan?

  Probably both.

• 1:19:22Speaker 03

  Probably both. Yeah, a couple of times I've been offered real wealth and with crazy stuff, but the Epstein thing, I don't know that I've actually said that on a podcast. He offered me partnership and the only condition was that I had to get rid of my existing partners. Like I had to stab my partners in the back in order to become his partner.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So he'd own you. Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like, show me that you're...

• 1:19:50Speaker 04

  I don't want to sidetrack this, I'll come back, but these two 333-year-old aliens, time travelers.

• 1:19:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 04

  So they cannot be easily replaced.

• 1:19:59Speaker 03

  Yes, they can.

• 1:20:00Joe Rogan?

  That's horseshit.

• 1:20:01Speaker 03

  Look, I'll make a prediction. If these guys haven't been unmasked, you're going to unmask these guys and you're going to find out that they've got Middle East inheritance.

• 1:20:09Joe Rogan?

  Well, please don't unmask them. They already unmasked Banksy.

• 1:20:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Joe Rogan?

  Can't we have some fucking mysteries in this world, damn it? I think they're cool. I like that music. That was fun. That was fun. I like viral things too. I like things that just spread just from weirdness, you know? Someone sends it to me. That's one of the things that I love about Spotify. If I'm listening to something weird, it'll suggest something weird, you know, like that I've never heard of before, bands I've never heard of before. And all of a sudden I click on it, the suggestion thing, that's how I get new music now. Or I use, um, what's that fucking app? Shazam. I use Shazam if I'm at a, you know, pool hall or something, something cool comes on, I'm like, ooh, what is that?

• 1:20:46Speaker 03

  See, I do that, but then I can end up in these ruts.

• 1:20:52Speaker 03

  Like, for example, I really like songs that go between A minor and E major. And that is, so it just gives me more and more of them.

• 1:21:00Joe Rogan?

  You're a nerd. You're a music nerd. Well, listen, that's your algorithm. There's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:21:06Speaker 03

  Okay, you're a mixed martial arts nerd.

• 1:21:09Joe Rogan?

  I am.

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:21:10Joe Rogan?

  And also, uh, there's a lot of things that are way more boring than that. Pool. Um, I watch professional pool probably three or four hours a day.

• 1:21:18Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 1:21:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. That's how I escape. I escape in the geometry and the movements, the patterns.

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  Dude, you should have seen the comedians in the physics department yesterday.

• 1:21:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  It was hysterically funny.

• 1:21:31Joe Rogan?

  It must have been amazing.

• 1:21:32Speaker 03

  Duncan.

• 1:21:32Joe Rogan?

  Duncan and Kurt together. First of all, together, they are the fucking dynamic duo. They are such a good duo, cause they're both sarcastic and they're both like heavily engaged in satire.

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  As far as they could.

• 1:21:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Speaker 03

  But then, um, I don't know whether I can tell these stories.

• 1:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Tell these stories. Tell them. What happened? What did Kurt do?

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  So part of the...

• 1:21:56Joe Rogan?

  Fuck, I love that guy. He's so awesome.

• 1:21:59Speaker 03

  So some experimentalist.

• 1:22:01Joe Rogan?

  Real person. Whenever he comes into the mothership cream room, I'm like, yes, give me a dose.

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  Oh, he got real. He gave me some wild anti-Israel stuff, I think. I couldn't tell whether it was pro or anti. He, so at the end, there was an experimentalist who was like, "Come to my, come to my parlor. I'll show you my etchings." No, no, no, cryogenic giant vacuum tubes from hell, or whatever. So we all went down there. And so we're in the basement of the physics department. You can tell the difference between the theory floor and the part where they actually do things. And these guys were just, you know, were effectively at 77 degrees before, above absolute zero with conditions that only occur in deep space inside of this thing coated in like tinfoil.

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  So these guys are cracking jokes about growing weed and what happens if you put hydroponic weed in that chamber. But the other thing is, is that comedians are really, they're really intellectual nerds. And a lot of them, not all of them.

• 1:23:07Joe Rogan?

  Those two guys are, for sure.

• 1:23:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. And they really wanted to know, "Okay, what is it that you guys are doing down here? And how do I understand?"

• 1:23:14Joe Rogan?

  The good ones are very curious.

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  Duncan's amazing.

• 1:23:16Joe Rogan?

  Very curious.

• 1:23:17Speaker 03

  Although he drew a completely pornographic.

• 1:23:19Joe Rogan?

  I know. He was making notes, yeah. Let me send it to Jamie, because Kurt said it to me. This is the notes Duncan was taking during the physics session.

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  Because I'm like doing battle a little bit with the, there's one extremely smart string theorist in the audience named Jacques Disler. And so, almost all of the interactions between Jacques and myself were, we were both being very collegial, but it was, you know, it was pretty, pretty hot.

• 1:23:44Joe Rogan?

  I sent it to Jamie.

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  And so he says, "While you were doing that, I did a little sketch of you. I can figure out your exact anatomy. It's a gift."

• 1:23:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, you need something like that.

• 1:23:59Speaker 03

  That's the last talk he's ever coming to.

• 1:24:02Joe Rogan?

  No, happen back to every one of them.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  No, actually, I was really trying to hook.

• 1:24:06Joe Rogan?

  So he's taking notes.

• 1:24:08Speaker 03

  Oh, no, please.

• 1:24:09Joe Rogan?

  Give me some volume.

• 1:24:09Speaker 03

  Joe.

• 1:24:14Speaker 03

  Thank you, Joe.

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  Hey, guys, I got some other things to do this afternoon. It's been great.

• 1:24:24Joe Rogan?

  Okay, bye.

• 1:24:30Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:24:36Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  But, yeah, I wanted, you know, CP Snow did this famous essay called The Two Cultures. And it was about how literary intellectuals and scientific intellectuals used to be one group, and then they moved apart. And so now we can't hear each other across the chasm. I really wanted to create a pipeline of not the seven scientists we see on all of the talks on the podcasts, but like, choose who you want to talk to. Who's doing cool shit? The comedians belong in our science departments.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  Otherwise, how are people going to know what's going on? There's funny shit happening.

• 1:25:24Speaker 03

  Well, and by the way, the UFO thing that's now blowing up.

• 1:25:28Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:30Speaker 03

  There's going to be some crazy science collision with the UFO narrative. There's no way of stopping it at this point.

• 1:25:36Joe Rogan?

  So you've turned a corner on this. Let's talk about that because I saw you on Jesse Michael's show, and you were talking about how just a few years ago, you thought that the entire narrative was complete nonsense.

• 1:25:48Speaker 03

  Probably five, six years ago by now.

• 1:25:50Joe Rogan?

  And what changed?

• 1:25:59Speaker 03

  There was no way to explain. So Jesse was going on and on about it. I said, Jesse, you're a smart guy. And, you know, I often would call him the back alley scholar. So he knew a lot of stuff that was sort of forbidden knowledge. And he wouldn't be quiet about it. So I said, okay, I'm going to disabuse you of the idea that you're actually into something. And I realized very quickly, at a minimum, there is a massive denied program, like usually called a special access program. One or more. There's no way to synchronize that number of people who've had experiences

• 1:26:41Speaker 03

  that are so similar. And there's a lot of stuff that I couldn't make sense of. And what attracted me in a certain sense.

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  Was I couldn't come up with any explanation, so rare. I usually have exactly the opposite problem, which is I come up with too many explanations. I can't come up with a single explanation that makes sense of what I now know. And also the fact that the government outreach to me and to Sam Harris and to Lex Friedman. And, you know, there was this thing where these guys who checked out said, there's going to be a massive disclosure and we need people to disseminate these things to the public. And you have a share of the, of the public who listens to you. And we need to get you informed so that you can help mediate the disclosure.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  So what prompted this change in narrative?

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  What's going on behind the, with the government?

• 1:27:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:34Speaker 03

  We don't know. We don't know. Look, we don't know what the thing or things is, are, yet. Some of it is, again, so low quality that it's embarrassing to be seen with it. So my colleagues who don't want to take this seriously, use that like, okay, so you're, you're, you're now on the little green men train? And I said, no, I'm on the special access program train. There is, there's for sure special access program or programs that have UFO on the side of them that may or may not have aliens or craft or non-human intelligence in them. It may be that it's decoys, it may be, I don't know what it is. There's no way to deny that there's like a giant lump under the carpet.

• 1:28:19Joe Rogan?

  And what, what prompted you to change your opinion and, and decide that there is some sort of a special access program?

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  When I started coming in contact with totally sober people from reasonable walks of life who would say the craziest things to me, and a lot of them checked and they didn't yet know each other.

• 1:28:38Joe Rogan?

  Like what kind of crazy things?

• 1:28:41Speaker 03

  Let me take somebody who's public, Brandon Fugel, for example. Was at a dinner where he started talking about being visited by a craft a few feet over his head that came over the mesa and his head of security was catatonic, standing in the back of a pickup truck, unable to move. And it was just way too specific. And a shared experience that multiple people had had, right? And so, you know, the joke, of course, is that the secrets of skinwalker rants, or, you know, whatever this.

• 1:29:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:20Speaker 03

  There's real stuff going on there and there's nonsense BS that the History Channel has packaged to come up with the salacious series and they're, one is funding the other. So I don't know what that is, but like, some of these injuries are real. And, you know.

• 1:29:39Joe Rogan?

  Injuries.

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, like Gary Nolan talking about people reporting, you know, Gary Nolan told me the story that somebody had said that a ball of energy would come and enter the body and move around and then leave. And he said, you know, the craziest thing is, is that when I inspected the tissue, there was a path of necrosis that can't be explained, like something that shows up on imaging. And Gary's a really smart, serious guy. I can check a lot of the things that he says scientifically. Why would he say something like that? I mean, I didn't see it myself, but.

• 1:30:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's also done some very strange work on material science.

• 1:30:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:30:30Joe Rogan?

  Where he's analyzed particles or little, little pieces of metal and alloys that have come from wreckage from the 1970s and 60s.

• 1:30:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, that I don't know the providence, like he'll carry around a little thing and he'll show it to me. I'll say, you know, there's no combination of, of, of materials and alloys that, that this matches, that we know how to produce. And I say, okay, it doesn't mean anything to me. Again, it's just, it's all, I, I have no, at this point, I have no primary contact with anything anomalous. I just have all sorts of secondary stuff. And by the way, the thing that you saw with the Jesse Michaels in American Alchemy. Boy, did that get a response inside the government, that particular episode.

• 1:31:17Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  I had a lot of people who had stopped talking to me about UFOs, who suddenly, you know, I had like eight calls immediately after it aired. "Hey Eric, just thought I'd catch up with you." And I was like, "Oh, okay." There was a huge discussion inside. And the first, without getting into particulars, the first official outreach, like really official outreach, the checks, in the wake of that episode. And I'm not under any NDAs, nobody's told me anything that I can't discuss, but that may change.

• 1:31:54Speaker 03

  One thing that's very clear to me is that when I hear something from many sources, I don't need to protect it anymore, it's already out, okay? I have now heard the White Sands story from many sources.

• 1:32:10Joe Rogan?

  This is the one where the crafts hovered over the base, shut down the nuclear program? Is that it?

• 1:32:19Speaker 03

  I'm just gonna say what I can say that's fuzzed out, that can't be traced to anybody.

• 1:32:23Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:32:26Speaker 03

  I was very upset with this shutdown of the El Paso airspace.

• 1:32:32Joe Rogan?

  That was recently?

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was supposed to be, we had a problem with cartel drones.

• 1:32:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  I don't believe that. I think Texas is another name for New Mexico, I think El Paso is a name for White Sands. Can we get a map of the United States that can focus on White Sands and El Paso? I think we have a problem that we've lost control of our airspace.

• 1:32:57Joe Rogan?

  You think this was part of what happened in New Jersey as well?

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  I can't say as much because what I know, no. What happened around New Jersey, I don't have from as many sources that I feel comfortable saying that this is fuzzed out. I can fuzz out the El Paso story. Nobody has told me that El Paso was shut down because of the problem at White Sands.

• 1:33:23Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:25Speaker 03

  People have said things about New Jersey that is...

• 1:33:28Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 1:33:29Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:33:30Joe Rogan?

  So, there's El Paso.

• 1:33:31Speaker 04

  So here, White Sands, right above it.

• 1:33:33Joe Rogan?

  How far away is that?

• 1:33:34Speaker 03

  My guess is about an hour.

• 1:33:36Joe Rogan?

  By driving?

• 1:33:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's see, it's probably 60, 70, 80 miles at most.

• 1:33:41Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:42Speaker 03

  So, I don't know what's going on, but my, my guess is... So, on Pierce Morgan, I said this thing, which is that New Mexico is the connector of the nuclear story, the Epstein story, and the UFO story. They're all gonna come together. Remember when we were only talking about the island?

• 1:34:13Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:18Speaker 03

  Somehow, I think I was the first person to seize on this. There's this thing that isn't in interview, which is Steve Bannon trying to train Jeffrey Epstein how to respond to rehabilitate it. And if you can find this, this is...

• 1:34:32Joe Rogan?

  I've seen it.

• 1:34:33Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:34:34Joe Rogan?

  It's very weird.

• 1:34:35Speaker 03

  So, he says, "You want to know about why I got Zorro Ranch in New Mexico?" Can we play this clip? Can you find? I think Jesse repackaged it after I pointed it out.

• 1:34:56Speaker 03

  But this is the story that like somehow we're so hung up about sex. We're either angry about trafficking or we're getting off on the idea that all these rich people are going to get their comeuppance or, you know, we keep turning the Epstein story into something other than a scientific espionage story, which is one of its facets. It's one component. It's one component. Right. Yeah, but it doesn't excite us that this is a guy spying. Control of science, Joe, is not something that is officially a big issue, and it is a massive issue.

• 1:35:34Joe Rogan?

  It's not publicly a big issue.

• 1:35:35Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 1:35:36Joe Rogan?

  And he clearly had a big interest in science.

• 1:35:40Speaker 05

  So why did I buy a ranch in New Mexico in 1993? So that gives you some sense. So I would have funded it in 1990. Los Alamos, which was the high-energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.

• 1:35:56Speaker 07

  And Los Alamos, it was where Oppenheimer and where a lot of the nuclear weapons program, the bomb.

• 1:36:03Speaker 05

  That's where the Manhattan Project.

• 1:36:04Speaker 07

  Manhattan Project was at Los Alamos. And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  Yes, because the scientists were going to be, they cut the funding for high-energy physics. But the people who worked in Los Alamos would still be in the Santa Fe area.

• 1:36:19Speaker 07

  They cut that because the end of the, this was the Cold War dividend, right?

• 1:36:22Speaker 05

  I don't remember exactly why. It was because, again, people thought that physics and high-energy physics really wasn't that important.

• 1:36:30Speaker 07

  Because that was about nuclear weapons?

• 1:36:31Speaker 05

  No, it was because they were trying, they decided it was maybe not right. This was the same time that Murray Gell-Mann came up with the term quark, Q-U-A-R-K. He picked it out of an old poem, the word quark. But it was something, it was mysterious. So they were starting to understand in the 90s that in our world of, the physics world, there was things that were just unexplainable. They called it strange things. You gave it a name. You gave it some characteristics. You called it, it had charm, was one of the terms. It had a charm. It had a flavor. It had a color. But nobody really, no one, Mr. Bannon, understood what it was, just like the financial system.

• 1:37:15Speaker 07

  And you wanted to investigate that?

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  I wanted to see if we could build tools so others smarter than me could help investigate it. And that was the beginning of your concept of the Santa Fe Institute? Yes. And Santa Fe Institute was founded to do study in this type of? Can you, can these areas of strange things be described by some form of mathematics?

• 1:37:40Speaker 03

  Okay, now, what you're seeing there is fascinating. Like, just take, by the way, very well isolated, exactly the bit that I wanted.

• 1:37:50Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:12Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:28Speaker 03

  In that interview, or that training, he claims to have founded the Santa Fe Institute. Santa Fe Institute was founded, I think, in 1984, not 1990 or 1993. Bannon clearly knows more about why these scientists were being defunded.

• 1:39:47Speaker 03

  Then does the person who buys this property. Now, that property is not only close to Los Alamos, it's also close to Sandia National Laboratory.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  What you, like, people said to me, Eric, you said he was an idiot. He's clearly very knowledgeable. You can see there that you were wrong. I was like, that is an actor. That is not anyone smart with proximity to Murray Gell-Mann and others. Like, he knew Murray Gell-Mann well. Murray Gell-Mann didn't name quarks in 1990. That goes back to like the 60s when George Zwy called them aces and Gell-Mann called them quarks, three quarks for muster mark that came out of James Joyce. So he's, he's just repeating stuff that he doesn't understand. And why did he buy the house, Zorro Ranch?

• 1:40:40Speaker 03

  To be close to the scientists whose funding was cut. The people who make weapons and who do high-energy physics, who had the rug pulled out from under them by the United States when they won the Cold War by putting this pressure on the Soviet Union.

• 1:40:59Speaker 03

  Like, there's no thing more important than theoretical physicists, you idiots.

• 1:41:05Speaker 03

  And you don't fund these people and you don't watch them? Like, the Department of Energy is supposed to have counterintelligence to stop creeps from hanging around the national labs, which is America's secret university system, hello?

• 1:41:20Speaker 03

  And

• 1:41:24Speaker 03

  that's what he was doing.

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  He was buying a property to be close to the national labs in New Mexico that make the weapons and that are in charge of trying to figure out the future. So if you think about the national labs as this parallel thing to the university system, but it's the secret part where you have to be American and you have to have a security clearance and all this kind of stuff. Epstein set up a listening post.

• 1:41:52Speaker 03

  Now, what are, what's the UFO story? The UFO story is all about nukes.

• 1:41:57Speaker 03

  And what was Epstein doing in Cambridge, Massachusetts? The analog of Zorro Ranch is named One Braddles Square. It's right in the heart of Harvard Square. You know, I know it like the back of my hand. It's a seven-minute walk to the Science Center. The Harvard Science Center on floors three, four, and five is where the math department is. And who was Epstein's initial contact in the math department? It wasn't Martin Nowak, who he funded. It was a different guy named Benedict Gross. Dick Gross was an expert in number theory and in elliptic curves.

• 1:42:36Speaker 03

  And elliptic curves are what power the cryptography behind Bitcoin, behind public keys. You're talking about a guy who was setting up listening posts next to extremely sensitive stuff that we've stupidly left unprotected in the open university system or defunded international labs.

• 1:42:58Joe Rogan?

  And when you say listening posts, like, what do you mean?

• 1:43:00Speaker 03

  He's gonna hold. No, no, no.

• 1:43:02Joe Rogan?

  No? You just remained in contact with these people?

• 1:43:07Speaker 03

  Joe, you've got real money. Guys with real money use dinner. Dinner is an incredible thing. I watched Peter Thiel use dinner. Fly people in for dinners. You put people up in a nice hotel for three nights. You serve them amazing food from a private chef. You get a black card to collect them and they'll tell you anything. I don't think, I mean that Peter was doing this in an evil way, but I watched dinner after dinner after dinner as people disgorged all they knew because they were so happy they're getting a $200 bottle of wine and being treated like humans. You know, like respected. So in part, you have to understand that dinner in and of itself,

• 1:43:51Speaker 03

  or a mansion, or a first-class ticket is all it takes to get people to start talking.

• 1:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Jeffrey Epstein was CIA. The communications network at Zorro Ranch, Prove It. The DOJ's own file showed Epstein built a military-grade encrypted link to satellite orbit at Zorro Ranch. The contractor who built it now holds a Pentagon missile defense contract.

• 1:44:20Speaker 03

  So remember?

• 1:44:21Joe Rogan?

  I don't know about that.

• 1:44:22Speaker 03

  Jeffrey Epstein is a construct?

• 1:44:24Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:44:25Speaker 03

  You know, there's this whole question about like, why won't Jews talk about Jeffrey Epstein and the sex shit? Like, as if I haven't been on this since 2004.

• 1:44:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no one can accuse you of not talking about it. If they can, they're just being ignorant.

• 1:44:39Speaker 03

  No, they're being a bitch because it used to be super dangerous. This was like, one of the really costly things is to say-

• 1:44:47Joe Rogan?

  So what do you think that was, though? This satellite encrypted?

• 1:44:53Speaker 03

  All right, let's, let's go there, but I'm a little bit nervous. Why was Jeffrey Epstein able to get all of these people much richer than him into his orbit? That's the question you should be asking. So here's my theory.

• 1:45:11Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:45:15Speaker 03

  Just be careful. Okay. What happens when you become a billionaire? I don't know. Not there. No, we're close. What happens is, is that you find out that it's not what you thought it was. First of all, you now have staff everywhere. You can't move around easily because you need a security detail.

• 1:45:40Speaker 03

  Right? When I first met Peter Thiel, I said, wow, your security detail on this beach is amazing. I can't even tell where they are. He says, am I supposed to have a security detail? Peter, you've got to be kidding. No, he's got one. So the first thing is, is that you find you, you lose your privacy, you lose your freedom of movement, you've got a retinue of people who have to be constantly maintained, they're under your roof. You know, this isn't what I signed up for. I wanted to be rich. Like, well, you are rich, you can buy things. Well, you can't buy privacy, you can't buy freedom, you can't buy anonymity, all these things that you want. And you can't buy the ability to do fun, naughty stuff. I'm not talking about little kids. I'm saying, like, if you're gonna take drugs, you're at risk of, you know, having everybody

• 1:46:25Speaker 03

  want to tell the story. If you want to have a menage, you're at the same risk. So the question becomes, what do I do to, to get what I thought I was going to do, which is the right to have freedom over my own life and to misbehave in fun ways, whatever?

• 1:46:43Speaker 03

  Nobody can figure out how to do it. Jeffrey Epstein could do it. Now, why is it that he could do it? Who's spoken to the contractors who built his island? It's the most obvious thing to do. If I was an investigative journalist, that's what I'd do. I'd talk to like the plumbers, the maids, all of the people who are just working for a living. Those are the people who constantly leak information about their employers. Well, who's the only person who has a, who has the ability to build something? The CIA has its own for, has its own construction company.

• 1:47:25Speaker 03

  Sovereigns, countries, nations have the ability to do stuff where they know how to keep things under wraps. If you think about S4, I guarantee you there's a men's room at S4. Well, who cleans it? That's a really important question because that's the weak link. And so, rich people haven't figured out how to be rich. That's what everybody was attracted to in that upper income bracket.

• 1:47:56Joe Rogan?

  That he would provide them with experiences.

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  He would provide them with things that they couldn't figure out how anybody could provide because they were dealing with a state. I assure you that the Sultan of Brunei knows how to do stuff because he's both an individual and a state. Most of us are either in this sort of black ops world or we're dreaming about being very rich or just normal, normal human beings. The very rich are very disappointed.

• 1:48:40Speaker 03

  Epstein felt rich, as I said before, in a movie sense. He had freedom. He could say and do things that other people couldn't.

• 1:48:52Speaker 03

  You know, Elon is constantly tripping over the fact that I think he's a wild guy. I'm up for wild guys. I want cowboy billionaires, cowboy physicists, cowboy everything. But in general, we don't want cowboys. And, you know, again, this has nothing to do with little kids. That's a different thing.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:49:15Speaker 03

  But if you want to go take drugs, take drugs. If you want to have a menage, have a menage, fine. I don't want to hear about it. I don't spill the tea. I can't stand this culture. Epstein knew how to keep quiet stuff quiet, and why is that? His product, as I've said before, was silence. If you want a really dangerous question, ask the question. What did the people who were in his direct orbit have an unusually high number of disappearances around them?

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  Did they?

• 1:49:50Speaker 03

  I don't know. But it's a dangerous question. I've never investigated it, but that's... Have you ever seen... Yeah, everybody talks about Eyes Wide Shut now. You notice that nobody talks about crimes and misdemeanors? Where Woody Allen is directly in his orbit?

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  God, I don't even know if I've seen that movie.

• 1:50:08Speaker 03

  There is a scene where Martin Landau and Jerry Orbach's characters are a pair of brothers. I think that they only meet on screen once. And Martin Landau is having an affair, and the woman has decided that she has rights. And Martin Landau is a very wealthy ophthalmologist or something like that. And he has a brother who's a starker. Starker is being the Yiddish word for a tough guy. And it's one of the most... Can we find Jerry Orbach, Martin Landau, Crimes and Misdemeanors? It's the most blood-curdling, so well-done.

• 1:50:49Speaker 04

  Which, the scene description, though, you didn't really get to it.

• 1:50:52Speaker 03

  Well, they're only in one... If they're only in one scene together, they'll be at a... I haven't seen it in ages, but it... My memory is that they're at a house, walking around a pool, and then they walk inside to the pool house. And there's a resentment that the brother who's in the life...

• 1:51:13Speaker 03

  Is only called to the house occasionally. Right, and it's this way in which the genteel and the people who can get things done that you're not allowed to do within the law are connected. And so Woody Allen is clearly writing this from personal experience. He has some interaction between being in high society and knowing starkers. And I actually knew his old, Woody Allen's old producer is the father of a friend of mine, so, a guy named Jack Grossberg. And Jack Grossberg was an epitome of a tough Jew in Hollywood who would deal with the Teamsters or when there was a labor dispute.

• 1:51:56Speaker 03

  And, you know, he wasn't in the life, but he was a guy who could stare down a mafioso. I think that in part Woody Allen is writing about what Jeffrey Epstein was providing, which was a measure of silence.

• 1:52:09Speaker 04

  Is this it?

• 1:52:10Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 1:52:11Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  No, we're looking for Martin Landau and Jerry Orbach in Crimes and Misdemeanors.

• 1:52:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, that's gonna be hard to find, because it's, uh...

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  That one.

• 1:52:30Speaker 04

  Right there.

• 1:52:31Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:52:35Speaker 03

  I think that this is the scene that nobody's talking about.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  I don't know, but she's killing me.

• 1:52:39Speaker 03

  Want me to have somebody talk to her?

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Like what?

• 1:52:44Speaker 03

  Straighten her out.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  What, you mean threaten her? That's all I need.

• 1:52:50Speaker 03

  How else do you expect to keep her quiet?

• 1:52:52Speaker 04

  Can you turn that up? As loud as I can get it, unfortunately. Okay.

• 1:52:57Speaker 03

  Well...

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  Hi, Jack, what do you suggest?

• 1:53:02Speaker 03

  What did you call me for?

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  I don't know, I, I hope you'd have more experience with something like this.

• 1:53:10Speaker 03

  You called me because you needed some dirty work done. That's all you ever call for?

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  Look how bitter you are.

• 1:53:20Speaker 03

  You've staked me plenty of times. I don't forget my obligations.

• 1:53:25Speaker 01

  Threatening will only make it worse, Jack. Okay, forget about it. What do you want me to say? How the hell can I forget about it? I'm fighting for my life. This woman's gonna destroy everything I've built. That's what I'm saying, Judah. If the woman won't listen to reason, then you go on to the next step. What, threats? Violence? What are we talking about here? She can be gotten rid of. I mean, I know a lot of people. Money will buy whatever's necessary. I'm not even gonna comment on that. That's mind-boggling. Well, what did you want me to do when you called me? Not to do dirty work, despite what you think.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Anyway, it's gone beyond just Miriam now. She's... She's talking financial doings. I...

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  I'm out of ideas. I don't know what I expected from you, Jack, but... You know, you're not aware of what goes on in this world. I mean, you sit up here with your four acres- Don't give me any of that stuff. I don't wanna hear about my success. And your country friends, and out there in the real world, it's a whole different story. Come on. I've met a lot of characters, from when I had the restaurant- I know you have. I've heard these stories before. From Seventh Avenue, from Atlantic City. And I'm not so high-class that I can avoid looking at realities. I can't afford to be aloof. When you come to me with a hell of a problem, and then you get high-handed on me.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Jack, I don't mean to be high-handed. I haven't been sleeping nights. I'm irritable, okay? Okay. Okay, forget I said anything.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  Let me just get something straight here.

• 1:55:00Speaker 01

  Am I understanding you right? I mean...

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  Are you suggesting getting rid of her?

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  You won't be involved, but I'll need some cash.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  What will they do? What'll they do? They'll handle it.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  I can't believe I'm talking about a human being, Jack. She's not an insect you don't just step on.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  I know. Playing hardball was never your game. You never like to get your hands dirty. But apparently, this woman is for real, and this thing isn't just gonna go away.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  I can't do it.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  I can't think that way.

• 1:56:02Speaker 03

  So while everybody's watching Kubrick, this is a guy in Epstein's direct orbit. This is what Epstein was. He was a starker. He was a science spy. He was a starker. He had buttons. And we're just all pretending like we have no memory of this, no idea about how we're all connected, how the highest in society are connected to the people who get things done.

• 1:56:28Joe Rogan?

  And blackmail.

• 1:56:30Speaker 03

  Blackmail is a lot... Like, we're over-indexed on... In my opinion, again. Who am I? I'm just a guest.

• 1:56:37Joe Rogan?

  But this is this assumption.

• 1:56:40Speaker 03

  Well, I was very early saying he was a construct, when nobody would listen. Here's the next piece of it. I think he had buttons. He had button men at his control. He made problems disappear. Things went away. That's how you make sure that you have the experience of being a king rather than a billionaire. The billionaires had more money than him, but they didn't have the ability to make their problems go away. And by the way, they're not suggesting that all the people in his orbit were availing themselves of this as a service. But if I was a competent investigator, I would be talking to Woody Allen and saying,

• 1:57:24Speaker 03

  "What did you mean by that scene?" Look...

• 1:57:30Joe Rogan?

  Because you think that scene is directly connected to Woody Allen's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein?

• 1:57:35Speaker 03

  No. I think that that scene is directly connected to the connection between Hollywood and Teamsters and unions and organized crime. There are people who know how to make things happen that aren't within the law. What is the mafia? We go... We watch all these mafia pictures, right? The mafia is about contract enforcement when you can't use the courts. That doesn't sound like what the mafia is, but that's what it is. It's a business. What happens when you're in an illegal business and you can't enforce a contract?

• 1:58:11Speaker 03

  Right?

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  You have to use muscle. So we use genteel, like he says, she can be taught, you want me to talk to her? We can handle it. This is the genteel language of roughing somebody up, killing somebody, and making problems go away. So the mafia is about business. It's not about violence.

• 1:58:45Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so his connection to scientists, though, was the purpose of that?

• 1:58:49Speaker 03

  We don't know, but I keep saying-

• 1:58:51Joe Rogan?

  What's your assumption?

• 1:58:52Speaker 03

  My assumption is that he was a clearinghouse, that somebody set him up at fair expense. I'm gonna say nine-figure expense. So I think this was a nine-figure fortune, hundreds of millions. And what it had was, it had the trappings of multi-billionaire. It had trillionaire written all over it for a nine-figure fortune. So it's orders of magnitude off of what it was. And I believe that that was only possible because there was a collection of sovereigns behind him. I don't think it was one nation. I think it was a bunch of countries. And the most obvious country is not Israel.

• 1:59:37Speaker 03

  It's the US, because he was operating on US soil. Do I think Israel was involved? Certainly. Do I think that the UK was involved? I do. Saudi Arabia, I do. I think that this was a massive piece of structure confused with a sex scandal and a blackmail operation. We're all sort of taking the bait.

• 2:00:00Joe Rogan?

  So the sex scandal and all the sex stuff was sort of to keep people happy and give people a place to go to where they could have these experiences? If you're dealing with physicists or some high-end scientist guy, they don't have access to this. They've probably never been with a beautiful woman in their life. All of a sudden, they're hanging out with Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not talking about you, bitch.

• 2:00:21Speaker 03

  No, I'm not talking about me either.

• 2:00:22Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure you're fine.

• 2:00:23Speaker 03

  Ain't talking about love.

• 2:00:24Joe Rogan?

  But let's be realistic. Most of these guys aren't, they're not hot, right? And then, all of a sudden, they're around tens who are giving them back massages and drugs are being used and there's this feeling of anonymity.

• 2:00:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:38Joe Rogan?

  Of safety, you can get away with this, everybody else is doing it. It's been going on for decades. It's fine. This is the place you go. And it's fun and they look forward to it. And they probably also do have intellectual discussions because you are surrounded by.

• 2:00:51Speaker 03

  Who wouldn't want in?

• 2:00:52Joe Rogan?

  Right. Right, and so that's how he ropes you in.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:00:55Joe Rogan?

  So what is his, why scientists? And what would be the benefit of having access to these scientists? And having this place on Zoro Ranch and being able to talk to these people?

• 2:01:06Speaker 03

  Think about it from the perspective of who is doing the constructing rather than the construct did. So he's the construct.

• 2:01:14Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:01:14Speaker 03

  He's an incompetent. He just lied to Steve Bannon. You see him touch his face, classic tell of lying.

• 2:01:22Joe Rogan?

  Touching your face is a classic tell of lying?

• 2:01:24Speaker 03

  If you looked at what he just did.

• 2:01:26Joe Rogan?

  The way he did it.

• 2:01:27Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 2:01:28Joe Rogan?

  So he's lying about the information? Or he's lying about his depth of knowledge?

• 2:01:33Speaker 03

  Yes, he's lying about his depth of knowledge.

• 2:01:35Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:01:35Speaker 03

  So how did I know he was a construct? In part, one of the things, like they're dumb tells that we give away. One of his was he was supposed to be a currency trader. And when we say we're trading currency, we're not trading currency. We're trading what are called spot contracts that are to be settled with an exchange of currency in two days' time. Right? So in other words, if I do a Euro trade, it's really a dollar/Euro trade. And you and I are going to trade dollars for euros and we agree to do it in two days' time. And then if you want to keep the position on, you exchange that contract for a contract that will follow. To erase that contract and form a new contract, which pushes it out two days. You call that rolling things over.

• 2:02:14Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:02:15Speaker 03

  He didn't know that Dollar Canada was on a one-day contract rather than a two-day contract where everything else. So in other words, there was an anomaly. And anybody in currency trading would have known that. Or I forget whether he didn't know that trading pounds for dollars is called cable in the business. So there were just dumb tells that he didn't know about foreign exchange. Yeah? So, you know, he's claiming to be an FX hedge fund manager to me. And there were stupid tells like that.

• 2:02:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:02:48Speaker 03

  And then he, like, he knows way too much about my exactly particular specialty in mathematics. Like, the number of people it could have come from would be five or fewer. So technically, what I did my thesis on is something called self dual Yang Mills theory, which is about every force other than gravity is a Yang Mills force. Except my thesis was really about gravity and I didn't disclose it and only people very, very close to me knew that that's what it was about. He was obsessed with gravity.

• 2:03:26Speaker 03

  And he shows up, I think in the Harvard math department in 2002 with Dick Gross. And clearly, he was talking to people in the Cambridge mathematical physics world who would have been, you know, there's something called the Chern Simons theory, which is mistakenly associated closely with Yang Mills theory, but is really all about gravity. And that, my work really shows that there is a parent theory that has Chern Simons theory and gravity as its two consequences. He knows about that without knowing anything about the structure and the subject matter.

• 2:04:10Speaker 03

  He knows about the history of my stuff and something called Cyberg Witten theory. He doesn't know anything concrete. How does he know all this stuff? He was in my world. And he was very focused, you know, on, I met him through Jess Staley, who was at JP Morgan. Now Jess Staley is deeply implicated in this. I didn't know that at the time. And Jeff Epstein has been mirroring my entire life, everything that I do. And I became well known when I was writing these essays for edge.org and he was in with John Brockman at the Brockman Literary Agency.

• 2:04:53Speaker 03

  When I got married, the rabbi came from Harvard Hill El, which was a building now called Rosovsky Hall, which he put together with Les Wexner's money. He was funding probably the conference at the Perimeter Institute that we did on the financial crisis. At every turn in my life, since I was a young man, Jeffrey Epstein was there in the background, even though I only meet him once.

• 2:05:19Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think that is?

• 2:05:21Speaker 03

  Because we're interested in the exact same thing.

• 2:05:23Joe Rogan?

  And why is that?

• 2:05:25Speaker 03

  The most powerful stuff in the universe.

• 2:05:28Joe Rogan?

  Why is he interested in that? If he doesn't know the science.

• 2:05:31Speaker 03

  What do I care about? I care about finance and financial markets. I care about the CPI. I care about the fate of Israel. I care about evolutionary theory. I care about mathematics that goes like geometry, like the geometry of elliptic curves, but really more differential geometry. I care about physics. Every time that I care, and I care about the smart, the world's smartest people at a functional level, not the people with the highest IQ, but the people who are irreverent enough to actually move the needle. So he and I were just, we're interested in where's the action, where's the high-end

• 2:06:13Speaker 03

  intellectual action in the world that actually moves things? And, you know, quite frankly, he was meeting in my offices in San Francisco while I wasn't aware of it, in 2017. I didn't know that.

• 2:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Meeting in your offices?

• 2:06:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:33Joe Rogan?

  He went to your office and met with who?

• 2:06:34Speaker 03

  With Peter. It's in the records.

• 2:06:37Joe Rogan?

  About you?

• 2:06:38Speaker 03

  No, I don't know. Hopefully not. I know that I'm in an email that he sends Peter late in the story, but I'm not going to discuss specifics. But, no, I was telling Peter not to deal with him, and Peter thought I was overblowing the danger. He scared me because I know what element he came from. That was not a refined person. That was a scary, scary person. That was a person who came, you know, like, the Hesh character on The Sopranos?

• 2:07:20Speaker 03

  Or Mo Green in The Godfather.

• 2:07:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:23Speaker 03

  That's that element.

• 2:07:27Joe Rogan?

  And you recognized that immediately?

• 2:07:29Speaker 03

  I... That was my point in bringing up crimes and misdemeanors. It's not like I don't know people.

• 2:07:35Joe Rogan?

  I understand that, all this. But what do you think his purpose was? Like, so getting connected to all these scientists, being around all this knowledge, the New Mexico, I still don't understand, like, what was the end game?

• 2:07:47Speaker 03

  Can I get another drink?

• 2:07:48Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:07:48Speaker 03

  Thank you, sir.

• 2:07:49Speaker 04

  Can I share this article with you?

• 2:07:51Joe Rogan?

  Please do.

• 2:07:51Speaker 04

  Okay, this was the one I just pulled up a second ago.

• 2:07:54Speaker 03

  If we could get another ice cube, too, that would be great.

• 2:07:56Speaker 04

  About this.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Jeff, can get us some ice cube, please?

• 2:08:00Speaker 04

  I would just, down here, this kind of, this is a long article. I believe this, most of this comes from the Epstein files that came out on the DOJ's website. Uh, this, the woman who wrote this, she's a former Boston Globe and New York Times reporter, uh, also LA Times.

• 2:08:17Speaker 04

  The summary here is what I was kind of getting at, because it kind of, it's two or three paragraphs, but it explains a lot of what you're asking here.

• 2:08:25Joe Rogan?

  Standard framing of Jeffrey Epstein as a Mossad asset is well-supported. Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine's father, sold Israel backdoored promised software to Sandia National Laboratories in 1985. His eldest daughter, Christine Maxwell, built the FBI's post-9/11 counterterrorism data warehouse through her company, Chiliad. Isabel Maxwell, Christine's twin sister, co-founded Calm Touch with Israel Unit 8, 8,200 alumni. Ghislaine ran the human intelligence operation, the Israel intelligence network, around both Maxwell and Epstein is documented and substantial. But the intelligence infrastructure supporting Epstein and Maxwell at Zoro Ranch points somewhere else, or to somewhere additional.

• 2:09:10Joe Rogan?

  It points to the United States Military Intelligence, plain and simple. The contractor, who built his encrypted link to orbit, is American, headquartered in Georgia, and now holds a Missile Defense Agency contract. The satellite uplink was authorized by an American FCC license. The project was managed out of New York office. The man who recruited Epstein as a child served in the American OSS, and his own son was in charge of the Federal Justice Department when Epstein died, or didn't, in its custody.

• 2:09:40Speaker 04

  Bill Barr and his father, is who that's referring to.

• 2:09:42Joe Rogan?

  The man whose ranch provided the ideal relay point was OSS, built American Missile Guidance Systems and military drones. And just up the road, another former OSS guy, Carl Ingwer, sold his New Mexico ranch to the strangest duo of all time, Donald Rumsfeld and Dan Rather.

• 2:10:04Speaker 03

  So this is what I've been trying to say all along. The only country that I'm absolutely positive was behind Jeffrey Epstein is us. You can't operate here.

• 2:10:17Speaker 03

  Look, right now, we are in the middle of endless antisemitic Christmas. It just goes on forever. And you can...

• 2:10:30Speaker 03

  You look at Jeffrey Epstein, I have no question that he was directly connected to Israel, you know?

• 2:10:36Speaker 03

  But first and foremost, I believe that he... And I hate when we use the word asset. You should use a vaguer word because those technical things, like who's an agent? Who's an operator?

• 2:10:53Speaker 03

  Agent is a word used differently by the FBI and CIA. Every time we try to sound like we're cool, like we know what the intelligence community actually is, we make mistakes because we say something that becomes deniable. You know, so like, there's a concept of NOC, nonofficial cover. You know, if you say somebody, you know, is a NOC and you guess the wrong distinction,

• 2:11:17Speaker 03

  they can say, no, he wasn't. Was he an asset? I'm sure that has a technical meaning. You don't mean it technically. You mean, was he in any way affiliated with the intelligence community? And it's not just the intelligence community. One of the ways that the intelligence community functions is as a cover for the special operations community, right? Covert operations is something the CIA does through ground branch that is not intelligence.

• 2:11:46Speaker 03

  So we call it intelligence and we give them a free pass all the time. No, those are the guys who do the wet work. That's a paramilitary organization.

• 2:11:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:59Speaker 03

  So my claim is that Epstein is a major piece of structure and having nothing to do with the actor that they hired.

• 2:12:09Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so you think Epstein is essentially just a construct figurehead of an intelligence gathering organization?

• 2:12:17Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 2:12:19Speaker 03

  Epstein is a construct, first of all. Second of all, there is an intelligence part of the intelligence community and there's a covert operations part of the intelligence community.

• 2:12:32Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:12:33Speaker 03

  Covert operations is not intelligence. I know it's under that roof.

• 2:12:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:12:37Speaker 03

  That is totally wrong.

• 2:12:38Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 2:12:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:12:39Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:12:40Speaker 03

  So if you want bad things to happen to somebody, you don't call intelligence because that's just human intelligence or signals intelligence or whatever. You're not going to call a cryptographer to make a problem go away.

• 2:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Right. What does this have to do with the science community?

• 2:12:57Speaker 03

  One, we have huge amounts of power. The United States is terribly configured because we pretend that we're okay doing everything through our university system, which shouldn't be done in an open setting. Like, you have to be honest about the fact that we're badly configured.

• 2:13:17Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by that?

• 2:13:18Speaker 03

  We didn't know how deadly physics was. When Rutherford in 1911 said that there's a neutron, nobody, I'm sure nobody said to them, "Oh, my God, you've ended the plan. New humanity is doomed." So it used to be the case that physics was something that was like interesting and fun. But now it's like the most deadly thing you can imagine, as well as being interesting.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  And a quick timeline, too, if you stop and think about that.

• 2:13:43Speaker 03

  Forty-one years.

• 2:13:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, so literally, yeah.

• 2:13:46Speaker 03

  Forty-one years.

• 2:13:48Speaker 03

  So my claim is that we are walking around right now with all of these extremely deadly ninja priests in our physics departments, in our math departments, who don't even know that they're deadly ninja priests. They've never worked on something classified, they've never solved problems for our government. But in part, we fund our scientists as part of a complex cryptic arrangement worked out by Vannevar Bush that is now remembered by essentially no one.

• 2:14:22Speaker 03

  So the idea is, you people, Teller, Ulam, Feynman, Oppenheimer, von Neumann, you are Dev Group, you're SEAL Team Six of the human mind, you're Delta. And most of the time, you're going to teach classes. You know, it's like Indiana Jones, you know, an archaeologist with a bowtie, and then he's running around with a whip and, you know, killing people and...

• 2:14:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:52Speaker 03

  Okay, that's what physicists and mathematicians are. That's why we're funded. That's why the Department of Energy funds physics. It's not the Department of Energy, it's the Department of Nuclear Weapons. It's the Department of Physics.

• 2:15:06Joe Rogan?

  So they let the physics people work out all these problems, and then they take whatever their findings are and apply them to weapons?

• 2:15:13Speaker 03

  Boom, vroom, and zoom.

• 2:15:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:16Speaker 03

  And that changed the economy, it changes the ability to compute. This is what, this is who I really am, this is what I really do. And I will not mouth this narrative that all of my colleagues will mouth. Physics is interesting. Yeah, a lot of the time, it's dull. You know? Physics is international. Oh, really? Why do you think the American taxpayers funding this international effort just to educate Chinese? For all I know, we're trying to sterilize the Chinese and the Indians with string theory. So because nobody's talked to me about this, I can speak freely. But if you ask me, you know, the Indians are some of the most aggressive string theorists

• 2:16:00Speaker 03

  on Earth. And my question is, do we import them in such large numbers so that they'll go home and be ineffectual?

• 2:16:11Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. So that's a real possibility?

• 2:16:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:14Joe Rogan?

  That string theory exists as a distraction?

• 2:16:19Speaker 03

  Joe, what do you think the odds are that a scientist can say, "My failed theory is the only game in town," and not get laughed out of town?

• 2:16:29Joe Rogan?

  Not so good.

• 2:16:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:30Joe Rogan?

  I would imagine, in a free-thinking world, not so good.

• 2:16:32Speaker 03

  In a free-thinking world, I would say, Ed Witten, you're full of shit. Who talks like that? You're not, you're the smartest person I've ever met, and you have not earned the right to say that your failed theory, your disaster of a catastrophe of a theory, is the most failed theory in history in physics. And you're saying it's the only game in town? Who died and left you kings, sir?

• 2:16:56Joe Rogan?

  I want to bring you to one of the weirdest theories that you have.

• 2:16:59Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:16:59Joe Rogan?

  Which is, you talked about this very overly-supported physics department in this upstate university, upstate New York university, that's attached to a hedge fund.

• 2:17:13Speaker 03

  SUNY Stony Brook's mathematics department and physics department.

• 2:17:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:18Joe Rogan?

  This is a weird one.

• 2:17:19Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:17:19Joe Rogan?

  Because it's attached to a hedge fund that does Bernie Madoff-type numbers.

• 2:17:23Speaker 03

  Bernie Madoff is a loser piker.

• 2:17:29Speaker 03

  Joe, Bernie Madoff was regular, and that's why they called him the Jewish T-bill.

• 2:17:35Joe Rogan?

  T-bill?

• 2:17:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:36Joe Rogan?

  What's a T-bill?

• 2:17:37Speaker 03

  A treasury security that allowed you to just earn some very boring, very high rate of return, where you were supposedly having your money at risk, but you essentially never lost, there were like, almost no down months.

• 2:17:50Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:17:51Speaker 03

  Renaissance Technologies is like, no, no, no. Hold my beer. We're just going to make numbers like nobody's ever made in human history. There's nobody in second or third place relative to Renaissance Technology Medallion Fund.

• 2:18:06Joe Rogan?

  And how is it connected to this university? And what do you think is going on up there?

• 2:18:13Speaker 03

  One, I don't know.

• 2:18:15Joe Rogan?

  But something weird.

• 2:18:17Speaker 03

  It's weird as hell. I, I know, I knew Jim Simons personally. Jim Simons is a genius. But a lot of other people are geniuses. I hate to say it, but you can't swing a cat in my world without hitting a genius. So he was, he was great. But he wasn't that much smarter than every other genius at that level. So I would say, you know, top hundred minds in mathematics and physics, clearly, better than that.

• 2:18:58Speaker 03

  Jim started off working for the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Unit, supposedly quit out of outrage over Vietnam, becomes the super-young chairman of the SUNY Stony Brook Mathematics Department, holds a lunch seminar with a guy who will become the world's smartest living physicist, a guy named C.N. Yang. And they discover over lunch a connection between differential geometry, Jim's specialty, and C.N. Yang's specialty, which is the standard model. Jim then quits,

• 2:19:43Speaker 03

  forms a hedge fund long before it's cool with the father of another guest of yours on this program, Brian Keating. And the two of them both have medals, so they call it medallion because they've won prizes. So, what was his name? James Ax, not Keating. And the two of them start this thing, and it takes off at some level that nobody's ever seen numbers before. And then they institute this policy, which is, "We're not going to hire financial experts. We're only going to hire math-physics people. So, we're going to hire geometers. We're going to hire particle theorists, general relativists, and machine-learning people."

• 2:20:28Speaker 03

  It's like, who came up with this story? Do you buy this story? This is so strange because it sort of also mirrors a second story that was not associated with Brookhaven, which is the national lab near SUNY Stony Brook, but associated with Los Alamos, which is a story called "The Prediction Company", except, in that case, the name of the person isn't Jim Simons, it's Doin Farmer. And "The Prediction Company" is the analog of Renaissance. So, what you see is that once people have a pattern, it seems like these patterns repeat.

• 2:21:06Speaker 03

  So my point is, if you ask the question, do we have a Manhattan Project in the current era? We don't know. You don't know, I don't know. But if we're allowed to speculate, the question would be, where would it be located? So how would you find, for example, the existence of a boys' school in rural New Mexico where all of these super smart people are holed up? It's a real puzzle. How would you figure out that Los Alamos was happening if that was your goal? You'd look for indirect evidence. Can you, Jamie, can you call up an article called Forbidden City from 1944 by a guy named, unfortunately, Jack Raper?

• 2:21:50Joe Rogan?

  Geez. Change your name, bro.

• 2:21:53Speaker 03

  I know, right.

• 2:21:55Joe Rogan?

  At least call yourself Rapper, add a P or something.

• 2:22:00Speaker 03

  So.

• 2:22:01Joe Rogan?

  Or a G before it.

• 2:22:03Speaker 03

  In 1944, the craziest thing of the, what?

• 2:22:06Joe Rogan?

  Gee, Graper?

• 2:22:07Speaker 03

  Graper, right, exactly.

• 2:22:08Joe Rogan?

  There it is.

• 2:22:11Speaker 03

  Okay. So this article appeared Monday, March 13th, 1944, Santa Fe, New Mexico. The story of a secret city with a mayor who is the second Einstein working on a doomsday weapon where nothing leaks.

• 2:22:30Joe Rogan?

  And this is from what year?

• 2:22:33Speaker 03

  1944.

• 2:22:35Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:22:36Speaker 03

  So the entire Manhattan Project leaked because a Cleveland journalist named Jack Raper happened to vacation in New Mexico and stumbled on the greatest secret ever kept.

• 2:22:50Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:22:53Speaker 03

  Dude, how can we not know this, Joe?

• 2:22:57Joe Rogan?

  Wow. And it's all about Oppenheimer. Residents must stay. Dr. Oppenheimer is a Harvard graduate, attended Cambridge, she's a PhD from Gottingen University in Germany, Professor of Physics, University of California, California Institute of Technology, and is a fellow of too many organizations to enumerate. And so they were recognizing that Oppenheimer was doing something, they knew that he was working on a doomsday device.

• 2:23:25Speaker 03

  Uncle Sam has placed the city in charge of two men. The men who command the soldiers, I can't read it.

• 2:23:32Speaker 04

  We see that the garbage and rubbish are collected, the streets kept up, the electric light and plant, and the waterworks functioning, and all other metropolitan work operating smooth, is Colonel somebody. I don't know his name, but it isn't so important, because the Mr. Big of the city is college professor, Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, called the Second Einstein by the newspapers of the West Coast.

• 2:23:54Speaker 03

  So, what I'm trying to say is, Jack Raper never got a Pulitzer Prize, died in obscurity. Leslie Groves, who was the other guy who was running the town, decided to send him to the Pacific to punish him for being the best journalist in America. And when he found out he was 60 years old, they decided, okay, we're just going to ignore this story and hope everyone else does, because it's too crazy to be real. Now, what I'm telling you right now is, Raper never figured out what Los Alamos was, but he knows that it doesn't make sense. I'm telling you Renaissance Technologies doesn't make sense.

• 2:24:34Joe Rogan?

  So, these different, what?

• 2:24:36Speaker 04

  Another widespread belief is that he's developing ordinance and explosives. Supporters of this guess argue that it accounts for the number of mechanics working on the production of a single device, and there are others who would tell you tremendous explosions have been heard.

• 2:24:50Speaker 03

  Oh, that Jack Raper with his overactive imagination. Ha, ha, ha. The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they say the darnedest things, Joe.

• 2:24:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so, what do you think they're working on? These people at this upstate New York university?

• 2:25:05Speaker 03

  Well, what are we not working on? In other words, how do you discover what we're actually up to, is in part, you listen for the holes. What do I work on? I work on the ability to get out of the solar system. That is my life's mission.

• 2:25:26Speaker 03

  I think Elon is a bit of a pussy.

• 2:25:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay, how so?

• 2:25:35Speaker 03

  I don't know, he won't meet with me.

• 2:25:36Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 2:25:37Speaker 03

  It's okay.

• 2:25:37Joe Rogan?

  Maybe because you call him a pussy.

• 2:25:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, but.

• 2:25:40Joe Rogan?

  Maybe he's busy. Maybe he's trying to make chicks pregnant.

• 2:25:44Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:25:46Joe Rogan?

  He eats with me.

• 2:25:47Speaker 03

  Something he does with recreation. Elon's a genius, and Elon is trying

• 2:25:53Speaker 03

  to replace scientists with Grok. And one of the things, I was on an Indian podcast called, the guy's name is Beer Biceps Guy, Ronveer, he's the Joe Rogan of India, and.

• 2:26:05Joe Rogan?

  What's his name?

• 2:26:06Speaker 03

  Ronveer Alabadia. Can you find him?

• 2:26:09Joe Rogan?

  Shout out to Ronveer.

• 2:26:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Ronveer is a friend of mine in Versova, and I went on his podcast, and I, before SpaceX and X, and XAI merged, I said,

• 2:26:26Speaker 03

  I said, "Look, I don't think SpaceX is Elon's space program. His space program is Grok."

• 2:26:34Speaker 03

  Elon doesn't trust scientists, for good reason, because they're weak.

• 2:26:39Speaker 03

  So he's building his own scientist from when, when we were strong. He's gonna have it read the corpus of physics done by competent physicists who actually care about the physical world, so he doesn't have to deal with any of us. That's why he won't meet. It's not because he's not interested, not because he doesn't know. I invited him to the talk, as I did you yesterday.

• 2:27:02Speaker 03

  The goal is to get out of the solar system, and we're so far away from everything good that there's no way of doing it under relativity. So why are we not researching the only thing that can save us, which is diversification? We need to spread out to the largest number of habitable worlds possible.

• 2:27:21Joe Rogan?

  So this implies some sort of a new propulsion system?

• 2:27:24Speaker 03

  This implies new science.

• 2:27:26Joe Rogan?

  New science.

• 2:27:26Speaker 03

  Stop thinking technology.

• 2:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:27:28Speaker 03

  There's no way that, you can't engineer your way out of a science problem, you have to science your way out of it.

• 2:27:32Joe Rogan?

  And what would be that science?

• 2:27:34Speaker 03

  Post-Einstein, post-relativity. That's what I do.

• 2:27:38Joe Rogan?

  And how would that apply to us leaving the solar system?

• 2:27:42Speaker 03

  We don't live in spacetime. Spacetime has a speed limit.

• 2:27:47Joe Rogan?

  Explain that.

• 2:27:47Speaker 03

  If you can only go the speed of light at your best and you can't even get anywhere close to that, how are you gonna get to something four years, light years away? In a fantasy world, by the time you go and come back, even assuming all-

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Everybody'd be dead.

• 2:28:02Speaker 03

  No, no, no. Assume you can go it under the speed of light, just under. You can use time dilation and relativistic effects to your benefit, but it's gonna cost you eight years to go and come back.

• 2:28:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:15Speaker 03

  Okay, I don't wanna do that. If I'm gonna explore the cosmos, I don't wanna use, I don't wanna live in space-time.

• 2:28:20Joe Rogan?

  So what are the alternatives?

• 2:28:22Speaker 03

  The Observers. The successor to spacetime, I'm happy to predict this on your show, will be named the Observers, which is a combination of not just using a four-dimensional spacetime manifold, but a 14 and a four-dimensional space simultaneously. This was what I was talking about at the university yesterday.

• 2:28:40Joe Rogan?

  And how would that, like, when you say the difference between science and technology?

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  So-

• 2:28:47Joe Rogan?

  How would that science be applied?

• 2:28:48Speaker 03

  If we look at the surface of this table, I can't do this to it.

• 2:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Can't spread it apart, move it, right.

• 2:28:55Speaker 03

  Called pinch to zoom.

• 2:28:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:28:57Speaker 03

  It's a multi-touch gesture invented around 2003 or something, debuted at TED. But if I come to this device, I can do that.

• 2:29:05Joe Rogan?

  Your phone.

• 2:29:06Speaker 03

  Right. So imagine that this is spacetime.

• 2:29:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:29:09Speaker 03

  And this is the Observers. So if I wanna go to a distant star, there's no way I'm gonna just go really fast.

• 2:29:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:29:19Speaker 03

  That's dumb. And I need an energy source, and I need to do things that we can't normally do. You have to jailbreak spacetime. If Einstein is in force, we all die. If we go beyond Einstein, some of us will live and some of us will die.

• 2:29:34Joe Rogan?

  And what would be the energy that you would need in order to do this?

• 2:29:40Speaker 03

  So that, how do you unlock this? One is, maybe it's not that energetic to do these things. Energy is technically time momentum. You can talk about momentum in the x direction, momentum in the y, momentum in the z. Fine. What's momentum in the time direction? It has a different name. We don't call energy time momentum, but that's what it is. So first of all, I don't believe that there's one direction of time. There's no arrow of time. That's not true. I believe that time is multi-dimensional. The only dimension that has an ordering is one dimension.

• 2:30:21Speaker 03

  So in other words, if I say to you, Joe has two cigars, Eric has none. Who has more cigars? Joe. Okay. Joe has two cigars, but Eric has three glasses and no cigars. Joe has one glass and two cigars. Who has more stuff? Well, now it's not clear because Eric has more glasses than Joe.

• 2:30:45Speaker 03

  But Joe has more cigars, so in two dimensions, we no longer can say this is better than that for things where you have more of one and less of another. Okay.

• 2:30:56Speaker 03

  Time is like that. In one dimension, there's an arrow, there's an ordering. We call it, it's like a well-ordered set or something. In two dimensions, all bets are off, and two and higher.

• 2:31:10Speaker 03

  The number of dimensions in total is going to be either five or seven. And each of those dimensions has a different kind of energy.

• 2:31:22Speaker 03

  So in other words, energy is unique because there's only one time dimension. But as soon as time has multiple dimensions, you can talk about multiple forms of energy, just the way you can talk about momentum in the x direction, momentum in the y direction, or momentum in the z direction.

• 2:31:41Speaker 03

  So in part, what I'm trying to do is to jailbreak spacetime. That's what I'm actually doing. And I'm doing it with zero support, with no confirmation that this is real, because something is controlling my entire community. To make this funny ha-ha, just like Forbidden City, was Jack Raper has gone mad. He thinks that there's a city in New Mexico where there's a mayor, who's a second Einstein, developing a doomsday weapon. Is that funny? What a loon, that guy. What an idiot. Ha-ha. That's what's going on, Joe.

• 2:32:18Joe Rogan?

  So how do you think that technology could be applied to these ideas in order to create some mode of travel?

• 2:32:30Speaker 03

  Pinch to zooms, Joe.

• 2:32:31Joe Rogan?

  Right, but how? How would that be done?

• 2:32:33Speaker 03

  So, right now, we're in a four-dimensional world. Call that flatland.

• 2:32:37Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:32:37Speaker 03

  Imagine that there are 10 perpendicular dimensions called symmetric two tensors. Four of those are spatial directions, and six of them temporal. Or four of them are temporal and six of them spatial. I can't tell you one of those two.

• 2:32:59Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:32:59Speaker 03

  But there are additionally either four or six extra time dimensions, or six or four space dimensions. We have to gain access to break out of flatland. We live in flatland. We don't know we live in flatland. And I know what that, technically, the name is fiber dimension. What it is, we have to gain access to it, which is discovering that somebody gives you an obsidian rock that has a property that you've never seen before called pinch to zoom. So I need to make the distance to the nearest star small, so I can go with reasonable speed.

• 2:33:42Joe Rogan?

  Or instantaneously.

• 2:33:44Speaker 03

  I don't need instantaneously. If I have something four light years away and I can make it 100 feet away, I can walk 100 feet easily enough. You know, I can push something.

• 2:33:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:33:57Speaker 03

  So the idea is if I can gain access to the fiber,

• 2:34:01Speaker 03

  the distance becomes relatively immaterial.

• 2:34:04Joe Rogan?

  So if you think that these physicists are working on this and all these.

• 2:34:07Speaker 03

  No, I didn't say that I think.

• 2:34:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:34:09Speaker 03

  I'm saying if anybody.

• 2:34:11Joe Rogan?

  Is working on.

• 2:34:12Speaker 03

  Either two, one of two things is happening. Either we have become the stupidest nation on earth destroying our own ability to do physics. We gave away the store. We're morons. That's possible. Or we're doing it in private.

• 2:34:28Joe Rogan?

  And you feel like it's possible to hide all this from the general public?

• 2:34:31Speaker 03

  Well, my point is you're not gonna hide it. They, no, no, no, the same way they did it before would be spoiled by satellites. Right now, if you tried to do Los Alamos, you couldn't do it because of the satellites.

• 2:34:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:34:43Speaker 03

  So it has to be hidden in plain sight.

• 2:34:48Speaker 03

  It has to look like something that it isn't. So if you asked me, let's imagine you asked me a different question. Let's imagine you asked me, Eric, nobody's willing to give you money. Nobody's willing to employ you. Nobody's willing to have you speak at their seminar. Despite the fact that you have complete blue chip credibility.

• 2:35:07Speaker 03

  How would you, how would you organize a secret team to get control of our adversaries, the world and the ability to traverse the cosmos? I sure as shit wouldn't build a chemical rocket company. It's dumb.

• 2:35:23Speaker 03

  But I'd do it as cover.

• 2:35:26Speaker 03

  And I sure as shit wouldn't do things in an open university department. Here's what I'd do. I'd build an organization that could rationalize billions passing through it with almost no footprint. Because what I really need is whiteboards and coffee and smart people and a secure campus and a story. That's all I need.

• 2:35:51Joe Rogan?

  God, wouldn't you love to have access to what they're doing?

• 2:35:53Speaker 03

  No, because I'm gonna do it myself.

• 2:35:55Joe Rogan?

  How are you gonna do that?

• 2:35:57Speaker 03

  Because I know, I know really smart people, Joe.

• 2:36:01Joe Rogan?

  Don't you need like insane amounts of money in a laboratory somewhere?

• 2:36:03Speaker 03

  You know, it's funny, like Sam Altman is racing, Dario Amadai is racing Elon Musk for superintelligence. So, I ask myself, if you could have premium subscriptions to Grok, Gemini, XAI, um, sorry, Grok, Gemini, Claude, all of them.

• 2:36:28Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:36:29Speaker 03

  Or you could have Edward Frankl's home phone number, which would you choose? I'd choose Ed Frankl's home phone number.

• 2:36:37Speaker 03

  So I get to call Ed Frankl whenever I want to. That's smart.

• 2:36:43Speaker 03

  Look, there are people that you don't even know about, who are just terrifyingly smart, who...

• 2:36:52Speaker 03

  Allow me to assemble that team. That's what, you know...

• 2:36:56Joe Rogan?

  Is that literally what you're trying to do?

• 2:36:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:36:59Joe Rogan?

  And how are you doing it?

• 2:37:00Speaker 03

  I don't know, I stayed with Ed for five days in Berkeley.

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  I got him and another colleague, who's also terrifying. Like, I'm using Soviets, Joe. Ex-Soviets.

• 2:37:14Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:37:14Speaker 03

  Because those guys haven't, haven't lost the magic.

• 2:37:18Speaker 03

  And, you know, I had Frankl and a guy named Misha Kapranov come down for five days to kick the shit out of my theory.

• 2:37:29Speaker 03

  It was crazy, absolutely crazy. We're drinking vodka at like 10 a.m., having insane meals, and just working our asses off the way we're supposed to.

• 2:37:43Joe Rogan?

  How'd it go?

• 2:37:44Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 2:37:46Joe Rogan?

  What'd they think about your theory?

• 2:37:48Speaker 03

  So far, all systems go, Joe.

• 2:37:52Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so...

• 2:37:54Speaker 03

  In other words, the story. Can we just pull up...

• 2:37:59Speaker 03

  I, I just want to do this for my own reasons. Can we pull up the lead, the pinned tweet on my Twitter profile? Which, by the way, thank you for retweeting.

• 2:38:07Joe Rogan?

  No problem.

• 2:38:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Love you.

• 2:38:09Joe Rogan?

  Love you too. What is it? Go to it real quick.

• 2:38:16Speaker 03

  So, first of all, I want to show off the header. Can we go up to the top of the header before we do that? Those two formulas. The bottom one says CFJ. C is Sean Carroll. The middle F is Fields. And J is Roman Jakiv, a professor at MIT. Sean Carroll's second most cited paper is, has this as its action or Lagrangian. Right above that is my action or Lagrangian.

• 2:38:58Speaker 03

  And what you see, all those zeros, there's things that Sean Carroll doesn't know how to handle. And that thing where you see a P, you see star parentheses, P on the bottom line, not the bottom, the second from the bottom, is Sean's relativity violating hack. Sean Carroll did not disclose that geometric unity is a direct competitor to his most cited work. So now, if we can roll the clip, it'll make more sense as to what's going on. And let's blow that thing up to full screen.

• 2:39:36Speaker 05

  Your misportrayal of the situation is nearly constant for reasons that completely elude me.

• 2:39:43Speaker 01

  Sean? The good news is, I have read Eric's paper. Here it is. I actually have it here, right here. First thing you gotta do is make sure that your theory makes contact with modern physics as it is understood. If you have a new paper out, businesses are gonna look at it. They're gonna look for, you know, where's Lagrangian?

• 2:40:05Joe Rogan?

  So this is, for people that are just listening, this is showing that you have Lagrangians in your, these equations.

• 2:40:13Speaker 03

  It's showing Sean Carroll lying.

• 2:40:15Joe Rogan?

  Right. Did you? Did you? The interactions are in there as well. But you called, did you call him out on this, on the show?

• 2:40:24Speaker 03

  I couldn't believe that he'd do this.

• 2:40:26Joe Rogan?

  So you didn't say anything?

• 2:40:27Speaker 03

  I was stunned.

• 2:40:29Joe Rogan?

  Proton stability, that's in there as well. So essentially, he's lying to make it seem like your theory doesn't work when you have all the things that he's saying your theory doesn't have.

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  One of two lies. We don't know which lie.

• 2:40:39Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:40:40Speaker 03

  There's a lie that says... Uh, I read your paper.

• 2:40:45Joe Rogan?

  So he didn't.

• 2:40:46Speaker 03

  I'm willing to entertain the fact that he's lying that he read my paper.

• 2:40:49Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:40:50Speaker 03

  And I'm willing to entertain the fact that he's lying that he read my paper and he's gonna deny that these things are in there. But he's what, I don't know which lie he's telling.

• 2:41:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, one of them's a lie.

• 2:41:01Speaker 03

  One of them's a lie.

• 2:41:02Joe Rogan?

  Either he lied saying he read your paper, or he lied saying, he definitely lied saying those things aren't in there, because he did say those things aren't in there. That's a lie.

• 2:41:08Speaker 03

  Right, he just says, there's none of that, none of that, none of that. Okay, so my claim is-

• 2:41:11Joe Rogan?

  Why didn't you respond? Like, right there.

• 2:41:14Speaker 03

  Joe, what am I, just, let's just, one more second. I'm in a world that makes absolutely no sense, and I don't want to disappear. I'm not suicidal. I have been the major competitor of string theory for forty-two years. I'm not a podcaster, I'm not a guest, I'm not an entertainer. What I really do for a living, I'm not paid to do.

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  Okay, I understand that.

• 2:41:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  But when he's saying-

• 2:41:45Speaker 03

  I don't know what to do.

• 2:41:46Joe Rogan?

  You just didn't know what to do in the moment?

• 2:41:48Speaker 03

  I mean, what do I want? Do I want a legal battle?

• 2:41:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:41:50Speaker 03

  I've got a defense contractor, I'm, one of the world's largest companies is a defense contractor, which is, has a campaign against me for reasons I don't understand. Just, no clue why anyone would say, "You don't have a Lagrangian."

• 2:42:06Joe Rogan?

  And, so he's attached to a defense contractor?

• 2:42:09Speaker 03

  No, no, no, but there's a, there's a... By virtue of the fact that the conspiracy against me, and I, I literally mean technically a conspiracy, is organized through these Discord servers, and there's an engineer at Google who, for example, can't get a paper against me that lies about what it is that I'm up to, um, published on the archive, which is where physicists share their stuff. So, the engineer will say, "How, how about you do a talk at Google, Sabina Hossenfelder?" And Sabina Hossenfelder will come to Google.

• 2:42:48Speaker 03

  And she'll be given her thing if he will be allowed to post an anti Eric screed or paper, whatever you want to call it, against me. So what I'm trying to say is I'm acting as Jack Raper in some way.

• 2:43:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:43:01Speaker 03

  I'm doing stuff and saying stuff like Epstein is a construct. Well, okay, now you can say that, but you couldn't say that when I started saying it. You can't say Ed Witten is driving theoretical physics off of a cliff. You can't say, you know, the reason that we have the particles that we do has that there's a 10 dimensional fiber in a fiber bundle above spacetime that isn't acknowledged. For some reason, the things that we're talking about on this show are dangerous.

• 2:43:34Speaker 03

  We're having dangerous conversations, Joe. That's what JRE does. And sometimes you go all the way and sometimes you puss out. But like, this is a dangerous place because they can't tell you what to do. And that's why they put you in like, a different color on the screen during COVID. Because you went against the narrative. The narrative was, go get vaccinated. The narrative was, if you think that COVID came from anything other than a wet market, you're a racist. Every time you've gone up against the narrative, they try to destroy you. You're still here, but you've been badly, badly bruised at various times.

• 2:44:14Speaker 03

  You are a danger to the narrative as I am a danger to the narrative. That's one of the reasons why this is like, I don't know, it is my eighth, sixth, some large number of appearances. We are scary to the narrative and the narrative can no longer be held together.

• 2:44:29Joe Rogan?

  I want to bring you back to the technology that's involved. So when we're talking about

• 2:44:36Joe Rogan?

  this program that may or may not exist.

• 2:44:39Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:44:40Joe Rogan?

  And when we're talking about UAPs.

• 2:44:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:44:44Joe Rogan?

  For lack of a better term. Do you think that these are connected? And do you think that?

• 2:44:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:44:48Joe Rogan?

  So one, one of the things that I've suspected, and I'm not the only one. Many people suspected this. It's very odd that a lot of these sightings, that these air force pilots and Navy pilots, that they find they're over and near military bases.

• 2:45:05Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:45:05Joe Rogan?

  Which is where you would practice. Or restricted airspace, which is where you'd use your stuff. And when they see these things, and they have these experiences with these things, the people that they report them to don't seem shocked.

• 2:45:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:45:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I mean, this is what Ryan Graves experienced. This is what Commander David Fravor experienced. That they tell these people about these things, and no one is like, what the fuck are you talking about?

• 2:45:34Speaker 03

  Right. Because they know.

• 2:45:35Joe Rogan?

  Because this might be ours.

• 2:45:39Speaker 03

  So some of this is ours.

• 2:45:41Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:45:41Speaker 03

  Some of this is foreign nations, and some of this is not understood. That's what I believe.

• 2:45:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So some of these things they're think they're seeing is a part of some undisclosed program?

• 2:45:53Speaker 03

  I believe that, for example, some of this is not craft, but the ability to create the illusion of craft.

• 2:46:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:46:02Speaker 03

  Some of this, I believe, is craft.

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  So the ability to create like a hologram?

• 2:46:10Speaker 03

  I don't know. Like a hol-

• 2:46:12Joe Rogan?

  Plasma?

• 2:46:13Speaker 03

  Like, yeah.

• 2:46:13Joe Rogan?

  Projected plasma?

• 2:46:15Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:46:15Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:46:16Speaker 03

  Some-

• 2:46:16Joe Rogan?

  Which we know they can do. Which we've seen them, we've showed videos.

• 2:46:20Speaker 03

  We've seen limited versions of this. Imagine that those things scale up.

• 2:46:24Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:46:24Speaker 03

  Okay. If there were no aliens or craft, I would want to create a program. If I was in the disinformation business, I would want to create one of these things. Right? Because there's a God-shaped hole in all of our souls and minds. And so aliens and spacecraft fill that hole.

• 2:46:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:50Speaker 03

  So there's like-

• 2:46:50Joe Rogan?

  It's God for atheists.

• 2:46:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. It's God for atheists. So first of all, I would think that we were incompetent if we didn't have something that created UFO ghost stories. Why wouldn't you use that?

• 2:47:05Speaker 03

  I also believe that there are foreign nations that may have leapfrogged us.

• 2:47:12Speaker 03

  You know, clearly, we saw that where we invested in aircraft carriers and other people invested in drones and they realized that this was about economic warfare. Costs too much to shoot down, cheap stuff to make.

• 2:47:24Speaker 03

  So we're in the process of having our Suez moment, if you will, in Iran, if we're not careful, where it is revealed that our lead in aircraft carrier groups is not what we thought it was.

• 2:47:39Speaker 03

  So we can get to Iran in a second, if you like. But what I believe is that we've been dumb.

• 2:47:47Speaker 03

  We've been extremely stupid since the end of the Cold War. Bill Clinton and Dick Morris ushered in an era of stupidity that I cannot even believe is so antithetical to my notion of my belonging to the smartest nation on earth, that we've just basically gutted our smart people. The smart people don't even know each other. Now, what is going on with the technology and what we're seeing? We've lost control of some airspace. That's what I believe is... I don't know that to be true, but I believe with very high probability...

• 2:48:19Joe Rogan?

  And you think that's what San Antonio was about?

• 2:48:22Speaker 03

  San Antonio?

• 2:48:23Joe Rogan?

  No, I'm sorry, El Paso.

• 2:48:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I believe that El Paso is not about cartel drones. That's true.

• 2:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:48:29Speaker 03

  I mean, that's not to say that there isn't a cartel drone here or there, but I don't think we shut down airspace in El Paso to deal with cartel drones.

• 2:48:37Joe Rogan?

  Right. So when... What were the experiences that people were reporting? And like, what do you know about what happened in El Paso?

• 2:48:48Speaker 03

  Well, there's what I know, which is all secondhand.

• 2:48:53Speaker 03

  So what I know, what I can say I know firsthand is the reporting of various things by various people. But I've probably had five-plus conversations about White Sands. People who don't know each other, not connected. So whoever is supposed to be keeping White Sands a secret failed.

• 2:49:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so...

• 2:49:12Speaker 03

  I believe that White Sands has an infestation problem with stuff that is either not ours or is being blue-team, red-team'd, ours and not told to our people.

• 2:49:29Speaker 03

  How would you deal with the following puzzle? So maybe we're putting our own, our own, one group is putting our drones or something in the air.

• 2:49:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:49:37Speaker 03

  And another group is being told, how would you deal with this problem? We've, we've lost control of our airspace, but something is going on in New Mexico.

• 2:49:46Joe Rogan?

  What was the descriptions of these drones? What does it say here? "Airspace at the center of the brief but highly-publicized incident, February 11, 2026. FAA abruptly announced 10-day shutdown of the airspace over El Paso International Airport. The restriction was lifted after just a few hours." Pentagon anti-drone testing. The Pentagon was testing high-energy laser-counter-drone technology out of the nearby Fort Bliss Military Base. The FAA grounded commercial flights out of an abundance of caution because of the unannounced testing. Cartel drone activity. Officials from the Trump administration cited incursions from Mexican drug cartel drones breaching US airspace as the primary reason for the defense systems that the defense, the defense systems were deployed in the first place.

• 2:50:30Joe Rogan?

  Lack of communication. White House officials later noted that the FAA administrator implemented the surprise flight ban without notifying the Pentagon, Department of Homeland Security, or White House officials. That seems crazy.

• 2:50:43Speaker 03

  It's, this story doesn't hang together.

• 2:50:45Joe Rogan?

  That part doesn't hang together at all.

• 2:50:46Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing.

• 2:50:47Joe Rogan?

  The FAA administer implemented a flight ban without notifying the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security, or the White House officials? That doesn't even seem legal.

• 2:50:56Speaker 03

  Joe.

• 2:50:57Joe Rogan?

  But I don't know.

• 2:50:59Speaker 03

  You and I both have at least 105 IQs. These are like 65 IQ stories.

• 2:51:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They, well, the Mexican drone cartel one seems like a dopey narrative.

• 2:51:14Speaker 03

  But maybe there are actually Mexican drone, drones.

• 2:51:18Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure that cartels have drones.

• 2:51:20Speaker 03

  Okay, so the cartels have drones, and we're gonna use the fact that New, that El Paso is close to White Sands.

• 2:51:25Joe Rogan?

  Right. But what did, what was the reported drone activity? Do you know anything about it? Like, what, what's supposed to, yeah?

• 2:51:31Speaker 03

  I do. Not gonna say.

• 2:51:33Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:51:34Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:51:35Joe Rogan?

  Mysterious.

• 2:51:36Speaker 03

  Hardly being mysterious. I'm saying as much as I can.

• 2:51:38Joe Rogan?

  I understand.

• 2:51:39Speaker 03

  But here's the thing.

• 2:51:40Joe Rogan?

  I'm joking around.

• 2:51:41Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:51:42Joe Rogan?

  But I mean, I'd like to know. Like, what?

• 2:51:44Speaker 03

  Right, but I'm...

• 2:51:45Joe Rogan?

  Tell me later?

• 2:51:46Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:51:47Joe Rogan?

  Shit.

• 2:51:48Speaker 03

  No, it's not like that. Look. Oh, fuck you both.

• 2:51:54Joe Rogan?

  Let's play that awesome music again. He loves.

• 2:51:56Speaker 04

  There's a video from the AP posted out just four days ago that says there is a cartel attacking lots of people.

• 2:52:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm sure there's cartel drones.

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  What I'm trying to say is, of course.

• 2:52:06Speaker 04

  No, no, I know.

• 2:52:06Joe Rogan?

  They definitely have drones.

• 2:52:07Speaker 03

  Every single person who knows how to keep a secret knows how to use the truth to hide a lie.

• 2:52:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course. And that's always been done.

• 2:52:14Speaker 03

  So the thing that I'm doing is, I am, I am in Amer- I am, I am so grateful to this country. I love my country. I am going to maintain the ability till my dying day to help my country and advise my country. My country is a bitch. I don't know why she's acting this way. I don't know why she's been stupid since 1992.

• 2:52:40Speaker 03

  Right? But she's been acting like a moron since the Clinton administration.

• 2:52:47Speaker 03

  We're bad at being America, and I can't stand it. So I'm gonna, I would love to tell you everything I know. I would love to penalize people for being bad at their jobs.

• 2:53:01Speaker 03

  But I'm going to retain the ability to advise my government till my dying day. And so I'm not gonna say what I know.

• 2:53:07Joe Rogan?

  Okay. It says, this is from New York Times, "Inside the debacle that led to the closure of El Paso's airspace, FAA citing grave risk of fatalities from a new technology being used on the Mexican border, got caught in a stalemate with the Pentagon, which deemed the weapon necessary."

• 2:53:25Speaker 03

  Whatever.

• 2:53:25Joe Rogan?

  Okay, who knows?

• 2:53:26Speaker 03

  Bullshit, come on.

• 2:53:28Joe Rogan?

  As many stories as you can spin, right? Throw them all out there, right? Throw a bunch of them.

• 2:53:31Speaker 03

  Look, our press was largely set up in World War II to go to war. And it's been that way ever since. And during the Walter Cronkite era and the Eric Severides and all that kind of stuff that nobody really remembers.

• 2:53:46Speaker 03

  We had a measure of freedom to talk about things. And it got too much. And in the middle of the 1970s, we had the Church and Pike Committee hearings. And we freaked out. We found out who we really were. We are both the super naive, squeaky clean state and the baddest of the bad MFs. We're both things. We're a hybrid. We're extremely Machiavellian. We're extremely naive. There's no way of stopping that being what we are.

• 2:54:18Joe Rogan?

  So you think that it's very possible that there's a foreign nation that has some sort of technology that can invade our airspace at will? And that's what the shutdown was?

• 2:54:31Speaker 03

  I believe that somebody may have leapfrogged us as they have leapfrogged us in drone technology.

• 2:54:39Joe Rogan?

  So they may have leapfrogged us in some propulsion technology?

• 2:54:42Speaker 03

  I believe that there is a nation in Asia, China, which puts on amazing drone shows and buys up our academics who aren't being paid. Because we're sitting around bitching, what have you, what have you technical people done for us? Why do you deserve to be paid from taxpayer dollars? And the answer is, oh, shut the fuck up. We created your economy, you stupid bitches. We're the baddest of the bad. We are the source of your wealth and your strength. And you come to us bitching about your taxpayer dollars? You deserve to lose to China, you little...

• 2:55:25Speaker 03

  I have no words for the, also, the new crop of tech billionaires who were bitten by COVID.

• 2:55:32Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by that?

• 2:55:33Speaker 03

  Well, they think that Anthony Fauci was a scientist. And so they, they believed in science before Fauci. And now they don't believe in science?

• 2:55:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't understand what you're saying.

• 2:55:44Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 2:55:45Joe Rogan?

  I literally don't understand what you're saying.

• 2:55:46Speaker 03

  All right. Silicon Valley had a huge about-face when they figured out that Fauci was full of shit.

• 2:55:56Speaker 03

  A lot of them bankrolled our universities. They supported science. They were Democrats. And then somehow COVID happened. And because they had this childlike belief in universities, science, and the Democratic Party, they ran to the Republican Party like children,

• 2:56:15Speaker 03

  not understanding that Anthony Fauci was not a scientist. COVID is a giant lie.

• 2:56:26Speaker 03

  Collins and Fauci and Ralph Baric and Peter Daszak are menaces to the credit of science. The credit rating of science went into the toilet with Silicon Valley. And a new idea was born, which is that the engineer is everything, the scientist is nothing.

• 2:56:45Speaker 03

  Everything should be a for-profit, not a nonprofit. If artificial intelligence should replace our best people.

• 2:56:54Speaker 03

  I mean,

• 2:56:57Speaker 03

  this is the spell that many of our...

• 2:57:01Speaker 03

  Like, I would like to think that I count Marc Andreessen, Peter Thiel as friends, Sam Altman as a friend.

• 2:57:10Speaker 03

  I don't know what happened to all of these people. They're just wrong. And they're rich. And somehow, we... Like, our public intellectuals became our billionaires. What does Naval say? What does Marx say? What does Elon say? Everybody who's talking in their book is now our public intellectuals. And quite honestly, they're all brilliant. But they're all highly motivated.

• 2:57:40Joe Rogan?

  That's fact.

• 2:57:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. But where are our scientists? Where are intellectuals? Where are our people who care more about, how do I say this? Glory and immortality rather than private jet travel?

• 2:58:02Speaker 03

  You could not get me to give up my claim on immortality for private jet travel. I don't understand the fascination with private jets.

• 2:58:14Speaker 03

  They're cool mildly.

• 2:58:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's not just private jets.

• 2:58:20Speaker 03

  Well, what is it?

• 2:58:23Joe Rogan?

  I think they attach monetary gain to success and above and beyond needs. So it becomes a way of measuring success. They look at numbers above and beyond everything else.

• 2:58:42Speaker 03

  My craziest brilliant friend, who's completely insane, a guy named Michael Vassar.

• 2:58:49Speaker 03

  And Michael Vassar had made a point to me, as he often does, which is really dangerous. And he said, when did the world's smartest people stop caring about their own game and their own prizes and start focusing on the prizes of the people pursuing wealth and status?

• 2:59:10Speaker 03

  And he said, somehow, when scientists care about McLarens and Lamborghinis, that something terrible has happened. And boy, has that like a splinter in my mind turning over. I can't get rid of it. He's right.

• 2:59:26Speaker 03

  He's just right. By the way, this is a guy who also told me that Dario Amadai was like a really important person. I needed to pay attention to him when he was just some guy that I knew.

• 2:59:38Speaker 03

  Vassar's point is the scientists stop having their own game with their own prizes. And so they've started caring about things that they should be completely ignoring. I don't have a McLaren and I couldn't care less. I do care about immortality. I do care about recognition. I do care about my name being removed from things that I've done and other people's cherry topping going on top of it. Quite honestly, we're a different game. We're a different species. There's a, you know that song, "One Night in Bangkok"? It came from a musical about chess.

• 3:00:19Speaker 03

  And he says, in the lyrics to that song, which we don't remember, he says, I'd have, you know, something like, "I have you over, I would invite you, but the queens we use would not excite you." So you can go back to your massage parlors in Bangkok. The whole point is that the chess world doesn't care about who got laid. Chess world cares about the evergreen game, the immortal game. What did Fisher do to Spassky? What's going on with Magnus Carlsen? Somehow, the science world stopped caring about our own stuff. And we got to make sure that the public intellectuals are not dominated by billionaires. As much, I love these guys. They're my friends. I think you're right. Yeah.

• 3:01:04Speaker 03

  They're smart as hell. They wouldn't have gotten to be billionaires otherwise. But they're always talking their book. Always. Look at, you know, people are like famous libertarians and they become surveillance people. You know, they, Bill Gates, you know, is he just buying farmland for? Right. To be, he wants to make sure that we have a steady supply of food. Corn. Of something. We've got to stop the addiction to billionaires as the only people we trust because at least they're rich.

• 3:01:38Joe Rogan?

  Let's end it there. Gotta wrap this up, but I appreciate you very much. This is very good.

• 3:01:43Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 3:01:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was a good one.

• 3:01:45Speaker 03

  Great seeing you, Joe.

• 3:01:45Joe Rogan?

  Great seeing you too, and I think you're... The last point is, it should resonate with a lot of people. It's dead right.

• 3:01:52Speaker 03

  Look forward to seeing you soon, Joe.

• 3:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe we'll go to another planet.

• 3:01:56Speaker 03

  Love it.

• 3:01:57Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.