Hernán Cortés and Malintzin (Radio Edit)

Greg Jenner is joined in 16th-Century Mexico by Dr Amy Fuller and comedian Jen Brister to learn about Spanish conquistador Hernán Cortés and his translator Malintzin. In 1521, the powerful Aztec empire was brutally conquered by the Spanish, led by the ambitious and fanatical Hernán Cortés. After a falling-out with his boss in Cuba, Cortés disobeyed orders and led an expedition party into Mexico. He was helped in his conquest by local peoples who bore a grudge against the Aztecs, chief amongst them the woman who became his translator: Malintzin. A skilled linguist, Malintzin was given to Cortés upon his arrival in Mexico, but after gaining her freedom was central to Cortés’s success. The two even had a son together. This episode tells the story of Cortés and Malintzin before, during and after the conquest, exploring how an Indigenous woman came to translate for a conquistador. From Malintzin’s murky childhood to Cortés’s desperate attempts to impress the king of Spain, via the rumours that he killed his first wife and the complicated politics of Mexico, we examine these two intertwined lives. This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Aida Abbashar Written by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Ben Hollands Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: James Cook

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:16Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. Today, we are sharpening our language skills and sailing across the Atlantic to 16th century Mexico to learn all about the conquistador Hernán Cortés and his indigenous translator Malintzin. And to help us understand this pair, we have a pair of very special guests. In history corner, she's senior lecturer in the history of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University. Her research focuses on early modern Spain and Mexico, specifically religion, identity and empire. It's Dr Amy Fuller. Welcome, Amy. Thanks for having me. Delighted to have you here. And in comedy corner, she's a stand-up comedian, actor and writer you'll have seen on all the TV shows, including Live at the Apollo, Mock the Week,

• 2:01Greg Jenner?

  Frankie Boyle's New World Order. Perhaps you've seen her on tour or read or listened to her hilariously honest memoir, The Other Mother, I love the audiobook, or her podcast, WTB, which I think is short for a slightly ruder title. And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Emma of Normandy, an absolute classic. It's Jen Brister. Welcome, Jen.

• 2:18Speaker 05

  Oh, Greg, it's an absolute pleasure.

• 2:20Greg Jenner?

  We had a lot of fun last time in medieval England, trying to remember that everyone was called Elfgivu.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, what a name, Elfgivu. And not only that, not understand or not having any knowledge about my own history, like, that is quite something. And now I'm half, I'm half English and I'm half Spanish. So what I've realised is, in the last episode, I knew nothing about English history. And today, it'll be proven I know nothing about Spanish history.

• 2:47Greg Jenner?

  And Mexican history?

• 2:48Speaker 05

  Mexican history, even less.

• 2:50Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so what do you know?

• 2:57Greg Jenner?

  This is the So What Do You Know?, where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. I'm guessing you have heard the name Cortez, the conquistador. He's appeared in all kinds of TV shows and films, most notably as the big baddie in the DreamWorks animation, The Road to El Dorado. But unless you are Mexican or maybe American, I suspect Malintzin. I'd imagine she's perhaps a lot less familiar as a name. She's the subject of several Spanish language plays, operas and books, and appears in some famous murals. One painted by Diego Rivera in Mexico City, he was the husband of Frida Kahlo.

• 3:31Speaker 05

  Oh, yes, I do know who he is. Look at me, one point already. Well done.

• 3:36Greg Jenner?

  But how have their reputations changed over time? And what exactly is Motecumua's revenge? Let's find out. We'll start with Cortez, purely because he happened to be born first. So, Amy, who was he? Is he an aristocrat? You know, when he's born, is he rich?

• 3:51Speaker 06

  He was born in 1485 in Medellín, which is in Extremadura in Spain. So he was a hidalgo. He was petty nobility, we'd probably call him, not very rich. We don't know a massive amount about him, to be honest. We think he probably had some legal training. Fairly well educated, I'd say.

• 4:12Greg Jenner?

  But in 1492, Hernán Cortez is seven years old. Columbus sails on behalf of the Spanish king and queen in search of India and bumps into what's called "the new world", inverted commas. It's obviously not new to the people who live there. So what makes Hernán Cortez decide he wants to follow in Columbus's wake? Because 10, 12 years later, he's on a ship.

• 4:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's off to seek his fortune in the new world. He arrives in fifteen oh four, so he's nineteen. And he goes off to a place called Hispaniola, which is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. At that point, that's the base of operations in what they called the Indies.

• 4:49Speaker 05

  And the indigenous people that lived in Haiti and in the Dominican Republic, would they have had any sort of relation to the Incas or like Mexico's not that far away?

• 5:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:01Speaker 05

  Were they more similar to?

• 5:03Speaker 06

  They had smaller towns, so they you don't find the kind of big cities with the pyramids and things like that in the Caribbean. But you do see decent sized kind of towns. But they were supposed to go and convert them to Christianity. And therefore they shouldn't have been allowed to enslave them. But they just kind of enslaved them instead.

• 5:26Speaker 05

  It happens. You pop out there to talk about Jesus Christ and before you know it, you've got, you know, hundred thousands of slaves.

• 5:33Greg Jenner?

  Yes. We should probably turn to Malintzin. In fifteen oh four, Cortez is nineteen years old. Malintzin is a toddler at this point?

• 5:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we think she was born in fifteen hundred.

• 5:47Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 5:48Speaker 06

  We don't really know much about her or her early life. We think that her father was of some kind of nobility.

• 5:57Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 06

  But we think that her mother was enslaved. She's now her, so she's from central Mexico, but she's not Aztec, that's quite important.

• 6:05Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 6:06Speaker 06

  She's from an area that gets taken over by the Aztecs. It's kind of on the Gulf Coast. She's sold into slavery with the Maya essentially when she's when she's a young girl, we think. She lives among the Maya for quite a time.

• 6:20Greg Jenner?

  And we don't even know her real name, right? We we know her by her later.

• 6:23Speaker 06

  We only know her baptismal name, which was Marina. And Malintzin comes from that because there's no R in Noatl. So they would hear Malina, but they put the sin at the end, which is an honorific title. So that is essentially Donia Marina in Noatl.

• 6:42Speaker 05

  So Malintzin, she is Nahu. She's not Maya and she's not Aztec.

• 6:46Speaker 06

  Yes, no. So it's from a different group entirely.

• 6:49Speaker 05

  And the Nahu people are.

• 6:51Speaker 06

  So they are.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  Who?

• 6:53Speaker 06

  Basically, everyone who lives in the central region of what's now Mexico. So basically where the Aztec empire was.

• 7:03Greg Jenner?

  In our heads, I guess, over here in the UK, we know the Aztecs as like the dominant superpower of the region.

• 7:08Speaker 06

  Yes, they rise to prominence in the 1420s. They managed to create this empire that spreads from the Pacific to the Gulf Coast in a hundred years. But it's patchy and this becomes a problem later on. They don't conquer everywhere.

• 7:25Greg Jenner?

  It's a franchise, is it like? Is it like Starbucks?

• 7:28Speaker 06

  They're after tribute. So both in terms of goods that they want, but also people for sacrifice. So they essentially don't bother to conquer anyone who doesn't have what they want or is too difficult to conquer.

• 7:44Greg Jenner?

  Let's get back to Cortez, he's in Hispaniola, so he has, he's not got to Mexico yet.

• 7:48Speaker 06

  No, no one has at this point.

• 7:50Greg Jenner?

  He is, he's got a job.

• 7:53Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 7:53Greg Jenner?

  Is he a legal job?

• 7:55Speaker 06

  Yes, so he's a notary for a while. And then in 1511, he takes part in the conquest of Cuba, which was organised by Diego Velázquez, who then becomes the governor of Cuba.

• 8:07Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 8:08Speaker 06

  Initially, Velázquez is very impressed by him. He becomes his secretary. That's when Cortez starts to rise to prominence.

• 8:16Greg Jenner?

  And then in 1518, Velázquez gave him another promotion. And this one is a expedition promotion. I want you to go and explore, conquer.

• 8:27Speaker 06

  Well, explore and trade was worthy, um, with the orders.

• 8:32Greg Jenner?

  The age old trade. Can you go and trade, please? And where is he going?

• 8:36Speaker 06

  He's off to the Ucatan. There are two expeditions before Cortez's expedition, and that's where they find out about this great city called Tenochtitlan and Motzuma and lots of treasure and things. This obviously piques Cortez's interest. So despite the fact that there are other candidates who would be more experienced, Velazquez gives him the job to go on the next expedition.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  So this is the third, this is

• 9:05Speaker 06

  Third time.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Third, third, third time. And he's like, I've got a good feeling for you, Cortez.

• 9:09Speaker 06

  Yes, yes. Now Velazquez starts to hear rumours that Cortez has plans that don't involve him. And so at the last minute, Velazquez says, no, I don't want Cortez anymore. However, Cortez kind of sticks his fingers in his ears and goes la, la, la, la, la.

• 9:27Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really?

• 9:28Speaker 06

  And he evades arrest about four times, I think.

• 9:31Greg Jenner?

  Man, he's on the run.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  And then finally, yes, basically, finally sets off in 1519.

• 9:37Greg Jenner?

  And he founds Vera Cruz, the first Spanish town in Mexico. He immediately divorces Velazquez from his sort of chain of command, right? He's just like, I founded a town and I am, I answer to the Spanish king and Velazquez is dead to me and everything's fine.

• 9:52Speaker 06

  So how, war. But what about, he's not coming back so much so that, um, he burns the boats so that no one can go back.

• 10:01Greg Jenner?

  No way. Okay. All right. So his men are like, um.

• 10:04Speaker 06

  I wanted to go back, just a little bit of feedback.

• 10:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, I actually left my wife and children back there, actually.

• 10:09Speaker 06

  She's like, tough. No, you're not going back.

• 10:11Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 10:12Speaker 06

  We know all about this from his first letter, essentially.

• 10:15Greg Jenner?

  It's an amazing letter.

• 10:18Greg Jenner?

  It's not even a letter, it's like a rant.

• 10:20Speaker 06

  Yes, so he knows essentially that in the meantime Velazquez will have obviously written to the king and said, "Look, there's this complete wrong'un who's gone rogue, he's off, I don't even know what he's doing." And so Cortez knows all of this. He doesn't even make it a letter from him, he makes it a letter from the town council of Vera Cruz.

• 10:45Greg Jenner?

  That he's founded.

• 10:46Speaker 06

  That he has founded. And essentially, it's an insane letter, but he essentially discredits Velazquez and then talks about how great he is, how he, "Oh, I put all of my fortune into this, every step of the way, I've done everything by the book, I've converted everyone to Christianity."

• 11:05Greg Jenner?

  Tiny bit of trivia, that's completely unrelated to the history, but I love it, is that the actor who voiced Cortez in the Road to El Dorado animation also was the voice of Winnie the Pooh. And so I'm just-

• 11:14Speaker 05

  That is upsetting.

• 11:15Greg Jenner?

  I'm just hearing the voice of Winnie the Pooh whenever Cortez speaks. Of course Winnie the Pooh craves pots of honey, Cortez is after pots of money, so he's off, he's off and seeking golden glory, 1519, and he is going to meet Malintzin. Finally, we get our meat cute, except it's not a meat cute, it's a meat yuck, because she is enslaved and he is arriving as a conqueror.

• 11:38Speaker 06

  Yes. So Malintzin is one of twenty girls, I guess she's only nineteen, given to the Spanish conquistadors by the Maya as a kind of diplomatic gesture.

• 11:51Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 11:51Speaker 06

  She's a present initially. Yeah.

• 11:55Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:55Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 11:56Speaker 06

  We're not sure at what point it becomes clear that she has really useful linguistic abilities.

• 12:03Greg Jenner?

  So how does the translation work then? You know, if Cortez wants to say something to the Maya?

• 12:08Speaker 06

  So she could speak Maya and Noatl, so Cortez would speak to a guy called Hieronymo the Aguilar and he would then speak Maya to Malintzin and then she would speak Noatl to any Aztecs.

• 12:25Greg Jenner?

  Ooh, it's just like a chain of-

• 12:27Speaker 06

  And then backwards, if the other way around.

• 12:29Speaker 05

  That never works well, does it, with the old whispers? It's like, hang on a sec, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.

• 12:33Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 05

  Yeah. But then she's got quite a lot of power. Because then she can translate anything in any which way she can, once, in a way. Like, oh yeah, he said this.

• 12:42Speaker 06

  Did he?

• 12:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

• 12:44Speaker 06

  We think she learnt Spanish quite quickly and actually Aguilar, he becomes almost obsolete quite early on. Not only can she tell people what he wants to say and vice versa, she also understands the etiquette, which is incredibly different.

• 13:01Speaker 05

  So she understands the etiquette of the Spanish and she also understands the etiquette of the Mayan, is it the Mayan people?

• 13:07Speaker 06

  The other Naur people.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  The other Naur people, right.

• 13:10Speaker 06

  The Maya too, but it's the Naur people that are more.

• 13:13Speaker 05

  That are in that part.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  More kind of important to the conquest.

• 13:17Greg Jenner?

  And Cortez is presumably using charm and violence, those two lovely combinat-, you know, he's, he's.

• 13:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, essentially, he, he learns quite early on that the Aztec empire isn't as solid as he thought it was. And he also learns that there are certain groups who aren't happy with the Aztecs. He gets the Totanacs on side initially by capturing an Aztec tax collector. Now, the most important allies that he picks up are the Tlaxcalans. They hate the Aztecs, absolutely hate the Aztecs.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  I feel like the Spanish have arrived, there's not that many of them.

• 13:55Greg Jenner?

  No.

• 13:55Speaker 05

  They seem very annoying. They're going around telling people what to do, oh, you can do that and I'll do that. And it's like, why don't they, the Totanacs and the Mayans and everybody, they get together and go, let's just kill these Spanish guys because they are a pain in the butt. And they keep talking about some guy called Jesus, I don't know who he is. What do you say? I mean, it seems like they, somebody missed a trick very early on.

• 14:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, the Tlaxcalans, at one point, it seems like the Tlaxcalans might actually finish them off. The Spanish really have to think about their tactics in order to not be killed, basically.

• 14:29Greg Jenner?

  So we have to conquer Tenochtitlan, well, we're not going to do it, Cortez is going to do it. A vast, vast citadel, an incredibly sophisticated, huge city.

• 14:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:39Greg Jenner?

  And 600 Spaniards show up and some allies.

• 14:43Speaker 06

  Yeah, with about two.

• 14:44Greg Jenner?

  Tlaxcalan, 2000.

• 14:46Speaker 06

  Tlaxcalans, probably.

• 14:47Greg Jenner?

  So about 2,500 people show up on the doors of this vast imperial citadel. And they just, what, bring the doorbell and say, hello, we've come to Conqui.

• 14:57Speaker 06

  So along the way, obviously Moctezuma has heard about this. He, he has people all over his empire. He can kind of go back and tell them things. Yes, we call it, uh, the Tlatuani is the, the real word, which means he who speaks. But we tend to call him the emperor. He has spies that have told him about all of this. That they're these weird guys. Is he not like, we've got to do something about these guys. Yeah, well, they set traps for them, which were intercepted by the Tashkallans, by Maninson. They find out about things that were.

• 15:32Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so Cortez is about to step on various booby traps.

• 15:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, basically.

• 15:35Greg Jenner?

  Don't step on that, don't eat that. No, that's, that's not a fruit. That's a grenade.

• 15:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. Moctezuma also sends people out with gifts and things. Chocolate. Yeah, probably, um, but also gold, which is not so in Aztec terms. That's basically a show of power and it would have sent the message of back off. I've got all of this power, but obviously.

• 16:02Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, to Cortez, he's like.

• 16:03Speaker 06

  To Cortez, he's like, oh, these guys love us.

• 16:05Greg Jenner?

  They've given us gold. This is great.

• 16:07Speaker 06

  Ding dong. Hi.

• 16:10Greg Jenner?

  And, and so we know that Moctezuma meets Cortez.

• 16:13Speaker 06

  Yes, yes, of course.

• 16:14Greg Jenner?

  And then suddenly the city falls. I mean, that's, that's very truncated, but like.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  Yes. Moctezuma invites them into the city. So his idea, and he's been painted very badly for this, but there's a few reasons why he does this. For a start, once they're in the city, they're at their mercy, they're, they're hosts, basically. So they can control them to a certain extent. Their weapons don't work quite as well, either in the confines of the city. But also Moctezuma would have been thinking, well, we can't have a battle kind of outside of the city because if it looks like we're losing, everyone else is going to join. Going to pile on.

• 16:55Greg Jenner?

  Oh, right. You've got to control the narrative.

• 16:58Speaker 06

  Yes. So they first meet, it's November. So definitely by April. So they're there for ages.

• 17:04Greg Jenner?

  So November 15, 19.

• 17:05Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 17:06Greg Jenner?

  Six months later.

• 17:06Speaker 06

  So definitely by then, but probably sooner, Cortes basically kidnaps Moctezuma.

• 17:12Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 06

  And they have this very strange thing where Moctezuma's pretending that everything's fine, because if he lets on, his people will essentially get rid of him and get the next Aztec emperor. I mean, have they not noticed there's something going on? Yeah. Well, he pretends that they're just like at leisure together. It's very weird. This weird situation where he's got hold of Moctezuma gets, it comes to an end because Cortes hears that Velázquez has finally got his together. Oh, I forgot about him.

• 17:49Greg Jenner?

  You forgot about Velázquez, didn't you?

• 17:51Speaker 06

  And sent a massive army to arrest Cortes. So I think it's May, May of 1520, basically. Cortes hears he has to race off to the Gulf Coast. He manages to convince those guys to join him.

• 18:05Greg Jenner?

  Nice.

• 18:06Speaker 06

  He is very persuasive, this guy. He's a charmer.

• 18:10Greg Jenner?

  He is a charmer.

• 18:11Speaker 06

  In the meantime, he leaves a guy called Pedro de Alvarado in charge. And we don't know if he does hear these rumours or not, but his version of events is that he hears rumours that the Aztecs are going to attack them. So they engage in a massive massacre, basically.

• 18:30Greg Jenner?

  And so Moctezuma appears on the terrace to convince his people to sort of calm down.

• 18:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:35Greg Jenner?

  And then somehow he dies.

• 18:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, so.

• 18:38Greg Jenner?

  I'm sure his people killed him.

• 18:40Speaker 06

  His people aren't very happy with him, obviously.

• 18:42Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 06

  Actually, Malintzin also goes on the terrace and tries to convey these messages. The conquistadors' version of events is that he is hit with a slingshot.

• 18:52Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  And later dies of his wounds. However, the indigenous version of events is that he gets stabbed, basically.

• 19:00Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 19:01Speaker 06

  By Cortez, because he's no longer of any use, basically.

• 19:04Greg Jenner?

  So that's the end of Motecuma.

• 19:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:06Greg Jenner?

  Um, this Cortez is now in control, I think we can say.

• 19:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 05

  It's quite interesting because I didn't know, and this makes a lot of sense, that the Spanish had allies amongst other indigenous communities or people. I just assumed that all of the Aztecs were murdered by the conquistadors, like the Spanish. But they actually, they actually got help.

• 19:30Greg Jenner?

  Cortez then continues and Mexico is conquered by Spain and it becomes part of the Spanish Empire and sends home all the silver and gold back to Spain. So that's sort of the conquest story. And then Malintzin, at this point, has kind of done her job.

• 19:43Speaker 06

  No.

• 19:44Greg Jenner?

  She could, could she not just go, all right, job done, thanks very much, I'm off?

• 19:47Speaker 06

  She's so important that she becomes part of the conversion effort as well to begin with. And she also is involved in other missions that Cortez goes on, like to Honduras, for example. So she's, yeah, she continues to be his right-hand woman.

• 20:03Greg Jenner?

  I mean, they have a kid together, don't they?

• 20:05Speaker 06

  They do. We have no idea, obviously, how consensual that was, but they have, they have a child called Martin.

• 20:13Greg Jenner?

  The interesting thing about Malintzin is that sort of where the story ends, she dies quite young. She dies in fifteen twenty-nine. When she's only, she's barely thirty, yeah, if that. So that's quite sad and that's where we leave her in the story.

• 20:23Speaker 06

  Martin gets sent to Spain and actually lives with the Spanish nobility, Spanish royalty.

• 20:29Greg Jenner?

  Okay.

• 20:29Speaker 06

  So he and Cortez formally recognizes him.

• 20:34Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 20:34Speaker 06

  Um, as his son as well.

• 20:36Speaker 05

  Do we know how she died or?

• 20:38Speaker 06

  I think she just kind of succumbed in the end, got one of the many diseases.

• 20:44Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  That the Europeans.

• 20:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  So kindly brought over.

• 20:48Speaker 05

  And she was so young.

• 20:49Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 05

  You know, from, it's like, she really only, in that whole period, was around for a decade. Um, and within that decade, she had such a huge influence and. I think when you're also, when you're a young woman and you've got literally no agency, you grab it where you can, don't you?

• 21:05Greg Jenner?

  You do.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  How does history view her? Is she's, do historians view her kindly?

• 21:10Speaker 06

  Not so much. No, she, well, historians, it depends on. So essentially, we have the big, great, great, I'm putting quotation marks around that. Historian of the conquest, who's a Victorian, and the Victorians have a lot to answer for in terms of history being written, called William Prescott. He is the biggest Cortez fanboy. He is obsessed with Cortez. He does say she's important, but he also sexualises her quite a lot. Um, and talks about basically that her linguistic skills also included the language of love.

• 21:49Speaker 05

  I mean, where's he getting that from?

• 21:51Speaker 06

  Oh, he's just.

• 21:52Speaker 05

  There's absolutely no evidence of that at all.

• 21:54Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 06

  Um, yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 05

  It's, it's, so. So for a long time Cortez was, was, was viewed favourably for many centuries and would have been lauded and applauded.

• 22:04Greg Jenner?

  Well, this brings us to my next question, actually, Amy, because for so long Cortez has been on the run.

• 22:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 22:09Greg Jenner?

  From the Spanish authorities, you know, people have been sending armies after him. But he finally conquers Mexico.

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:15Greg Jenner?

  Which means presumably he gets to go to the King of Spain. Hello, this is yours because of me, so do you wanna let me off and give me a job? I mean, what does he, does he get rewarded?

• 22:24Speaker 06

  So, yes, he does. He, initially, he becomes the governor of what they call New Spain, which is what Mexico's called initially. Yeah, he does get rewarded. He also makes sure to have his letters published.

• 22:38Greg Jenner?

  Great.

• 22:39Speaker 06

  Very quickly, so they're all, I think there's five of them and they're all published by fifteen twenty five, just so. His legacy is secure. He gets made governor of Mexico, but it doesn't always.

• 22:51Greg Jenner?

  He's too, he's too hot-headed, isn't he? He is. He can't just settle for something and go, this is fine, this is enough.

• 22:55Speaker 06

  No, he.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  Oh, what does he do?

• 22:58Speaker 06

  Well, he gets too big for his boots, basically.

• 23:01Speaker 05

  He's been big, too big for his boots for about two decades.

• 23:04Greg Jenner?

  So, yeah, so the king appoints an investigator, Ponce de Leon, to, to come after him, strips him of his governorship in fifteen twenty six.

• 23:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Pompey de Leon dies quite soon after he arrives. The second guy who is sent to investigate him also dies within like eight months.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  What are they dying from?

• 23:24Greg Jenner?

  I think they're dying from Cortez, that's probably.

• 23:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, we don't know. I mean, some people have said it might have been Cortez, but we're not, we're not 100% sure about that. But yeah, in 1528, Cortez goes back to Spain to talk to the king. He's well received. He's even given a title. He's, he's removed from being the governor of New Spain.

• 23:46Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 23:46Speaker 06

  But he's given, he's made the Marquess of the Valley of Oaxaca.

• 23:51Speaker 05

  All of the men in this entire historical period.

• 23:55Greg Jenner?

  You're holding your eyes like you've got a migraine.

• 23:57Speaker 05

  Absolutely appalling human beings. Despite us knowing all of this, Cortez is a hero.

• 24:05Greg Jenner?

  Well, I mean.

• 24:05Speaker 05

  Not now, but then.

• 24:06Greg Jenner?

  He's constantly investigated, isn't he? They're constantly trying to investigate him for murder, for embezzlement, for not following orders. He is ruthless. He is avaricious. Even the Spanish think that, but he gets away with it. How does he die in the end? Does Moximac get his revenge, as the famous idiom would have it?

• 24:22Speaker 06

  Well, so he dies of, we think, pleurisy, but just before that, he has a really bad case of dysentery.

• 24:31Greg Jenner?

  Good.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  I mean, what a way to go.

• 24:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, it sounds like a horrible death and, you know, couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  Truly.

• 24:41Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so pleurisy is probably what killed him, but dysentery probably didn't help. Okay. So there you go, Jen. Hernán Cortez and Malintzin. It's quite the story, isn't it?

• 24:51Speaker 05

  It is the story. It is quite the story. It's quite a sad story.

• 24:55Greg Jenner?

  It's tragic, really.

• 24:57Speaker 05

  There's no part of it that isn't. He is genuinely one of the most unpleasant men in, in history, I would say.

• 25:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 05

  He's a truly awful human being.

• 25:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:07Speaker 05

  And sure, Malintzin by proxy, you could say, yeah, but you know, she was no saint either. And that is absolutely true. But the power dynamic there was so, you know, you can't compare the two. You're looking at a young girl who was enslaved and was trying to survive. And she wasn't to know how it was going to turn out, you know, that it was going to end up being some sort of genocidal mania. And then this Cortez guy was just like total.

• 25:35Speaker 05

  Narcissist psychopath. Good guy. Good guy.

• 25:39Speaker 07

  Good guy. The Nuance Window.

• 25:47Greg Jenner?

  Time now for the Nuance Window. This is the part of the show where Jen and I machete our way through the jungle for two minutes while Amy tells us something we need to know about Malintzin. So my stopwatch is ready. You've got two minutes. Take it away, Dr Amy.

• 25:59Speaker 06

  So sadly, after Mexico gained its independence from Spain in 1821, Malintzin's public reputation went downhill. There was a desire to reclaim the history of the nation from the colonizer and to explain how the conquest happened. But unfortunately, this led to her becoming a scapegoat. She's often referred to as the Mexican Eve, a traitor and a whore who betrayed her people despite the fact that she wasn't Aztec, nor did she have much agency of her own. Weirdly, the hundreds of thousands of indigenous allies do not get blamed. They're presented as being tricked by Cortez into fighting against Moctezuma the tyrant. Yet, she is not awarded the same dispensation. However, as depressing as all

• 26:44Speaker 06

  that is, let's reflect on how she was viewed by her contemporaries, largely because it's quite annoying for Cortez and his fanboys. So, not only did the other conquistadors testify that she was absolutely fundamental to the conquest, so much so that they could not have achieved their victory without her, but the Tashkallans, in their pictorial sources, present her in every scene that Cortez features, even in amongst the fighting, like a real badass. And sometimes she's even depicted as bigger than him, basically insinuating that she was more important than him. And in fact, because she was always in Cortez's company, the indigenous people they spoke to referred to Cortez as the captain of Marina

• 27:27Speaker 06

  or Melinchay. This not only demonstrates her importance to the native allies, but even better, it effectively demoted Cortez because he was named in terms of his relationship with her.

• 27:39Speaker 08

  I actually am Team Berlinsin. Sure, I didn't turn out great in the long term, but I think she did what she had to do to survive.

• 27:47Greg Jenner?

  Listener, if you're bursting for more Brister, check out our episode on Emma of Normandy with all the elf geevus for more Mexican history or famous interpreters. You can do the Aztecs episode, series one, the Sacagawea episode, or the Colombian exchange episode, which is about Columbus and after that fact. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds, and also make sure to switch on your notifications so you never miss an episode. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we had the amazing Dr Amy Fuller from Nottingham Trent University. Thank you, Amy. Thanks for having me. It was great fun. And in comedy corner, we had the brilliant Jen Brister. Thank you, Jen.

• 28:25Speaker 08

  Oh, what a delight. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you, Amy. I've learned a lot.

• 28:29Greg Jenner?

  And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we translate another overlooked historical story. But for now, I'm off to write a long letter to the King of Spain blaming someone else for all of my failures. Bye.

• 28:45Speaker 09

  From BBC Radio 4, this is What Seriously? I'm Dara O'Brien.

• 28:49Speaker 10

  And I'm Izzy Sutty. And in our new series, we're bringing you short stories and tall tales.

• 28:53Speaker 09

  What Seriously? is packed with real life, strange but true stories that make you go, but seriously? And provide you with excellent social ammo to impress your friends.

• 29:01Speaker 10

  The twist is, we don't know how each story unfolds. And we'll have to figure it out one fragment at a time with our special guests, who each have a mysterious connection to the tale.

• 29:10Speaker 09

  That's right. I am your spy expert.

• 29:12Speaker 11

  And I don't really want to bring you back to the real facts of the story because you're making me laugh so much, but I feel like I should.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  We're the only country in the world that ate the animal on our crest, like. And I never know whether to feel terrible or brilliant about that.

• 29:22Speaker 08

  All these engineers trying desperately to reduce the amount of dust in space. And you get Izzy taking up a balloon full of glass.

• 29:29Speaker 09

  Wow.

• 29:29Speaker 12

  You're welcome. Have that one on the house.

• 29:31Speaker 09

  With all the stuff.

• 29:32Speaker 12

  I know, right? It's like I'm reading from a sheet or something, but never have.

• 29:37Speaker 09

  Join us for What Seriously? From BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sounds.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts, or find us on YouTube.