Pod Insights The Daily Stoic Premium (🔓) Is it Resilience, or Are You Just Naive? | Ask Daily Stoic About this episode We’ve talked before about the so-called Stockdale Paradox—the blazing determination inside Admiral James Stockdale that allowed him to believe that, despite his imprisonment and torture, he would not only survive but thrive because of his experience. There’s something similar in Meditations where Marcus Aurelius, reflecting on the plague and the wars and the troubles that beset his reign, actually says to himself, “It’s fortunate that this happened to me.”📕 Ryan Holiday's new book "Discipline Is Destiny" is out now! We’ve extended the pre-order bonuses for the next week—among them is a signed and numbered page from the original manuscript of the book. You can learn more about those and how to receive them over at Dailystoic.com/preorder. ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and Facebook See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:03 Ryan Holiday? Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we read a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you in your everyday life. But on Fridays, we not only read this daily meditation, but I try to answer some questions from listeners and fellow Stoics who are trying to apply this philosophy, whatever it is they happen to do. Sometimes these are from talks. Sometimes these are people who come up to talk to me on the street. Sometimes these are written in or emailed from listeners. But I hope in answering their questions, I can answer your questions, give a little more guidance on this philosophy we're all trying to follow.
0:49 Ryan Holiday? Is it resilience? Or are you just naive? We've talked before about the so-called Stockdale paradox, the blazing determination inside future Admiral James Stockdale that allowed him to believe that despite his imprisonment and torture, he would not only survive, but thrive because of his experience. There's something similar in meditations where Marcus Aurelius, reflecting on the plague and the wars and the troubles that beset his reign, actually says to himself, "It's fortunate that this happened to me." The Stoics always believed they could find a way. But it's important to understand where this is coming from, lest we confuse resilience with naivete or worse. In a recent episode of Ramit Sethi's wonderful podcast, "I Will Teach You to Be Rich",
1:34 Ryan Holiday? one of the guests explained how his father, despite having to raise his kids in a trailer while making $30,000 a year, inspired his kids to believe that everything was going to be okay, that they'd get through it, that they would find a way. And this is a wonderful and important lesson. Except now, as an adult working as a mortgage broker, the man seemed remarkably naive about the potential vulnerability of his industry to the turbulence of the economy. "What if the market turns?", he was asked. "I trust that my company will take care of me", he said. Wasn't he concerned that he had so little in the way of savings or emergency funds? No, he said, "It'll all work out. My company will take care of me."
2:16 Ryan Holiday? The word for this attitude is not stoic, it's panglossian, a term derived from the novel Candide from Voltaire. Yes, a stoic believes they'll find a way through no matter what happens, but they're also realistic. They try not to depend on things outside their control. When asked who fared worse in the North Vietnamese prison camp, Stockdale singled out one group, the optimists. They were convinced that the army was coming to get them, that the US government would ultimately protect them and bring them home. They were convinced it would happen by a certain date. They were convinced that everything would work out fine. They were convinced it would get resolved soon. We cannot be so naive or excessively optimistic. We cannot be dependent on others.
2:59 Ryan Holiday? Like the Stoics, we must never expect or hope that someone will come to save us, because ultimately, it's our expectations and our entitlements that crush us.
3:15 Speaker 01 Thanks so much for this, Ryan.
3:16 Ryan Holiday? Yeah.
3:17 Speaker 01 My question is relating to dealing with trauma, right? And times where you need to unpack. I know Stoicism, we're dealing with, right, looking forward and how can I deal with, you know, things currently, but what if, how do you not dwell?
3:34 Ryan Holiday? Sure.
3:35 Speaker 01 Stoic.
3:36 Ryan Holiday? I mean, I'm a believer, proponent of therapy. I think there's, it's not a coincidence that cognitive behavioral therapy traces its roots back to Stoicism. Albert Ellis writes a lot about Stoicism and CBT, so I might point you to his stuff. But I do like to push back against this notion that a stoic sort of only moves forward, stuffs their emotions down, ignores pain, ignores trauma. To me, that's a recipe for, for the bill coming due in the future with, with sizable interest attached. So I think we want to get serious with, we want to get serious about dealing with stuff,
4:20 Ryan Holiday? facing demons, getting help with those demons, whether that's a 12-step group or a therapist, whether it's reading books, whether it's opening up to someone you trust or feel vulnerable around. But I, I would say that, that a stoic fearlessly faces everything that life throws at them, including their own past. Let's do Paul.
4:46 Speaker 02 Hi, thank you very much, Ryan. So in my work in palliative care, I certainly see a great connection between stoicism and how we help people who are going through terminal illness. But when we talk about grief, we often talk about, you know, the grief takes as long as it's going to take. It's okay to feel the way that you're feeling and that everybody does it differently. So I guess I'm wondering how stoicism approaches this because grief is our feelings and we're supposed to have control over our feelings. And I'm really new to this. So I really appreciate what you have to say.
5:25 Ryan Holiday? So Paul, Seneca writes two essays in the consolation genre where he's basically writing letters. In one case, I think they're both, one is to his mother and one is to a friend who's just lost her father. He's writing the letter to his mother because Seneca's just been exiled. So she's essentially grieving the loss of her son. And some context, I believe he just lost his own son. So she may be also grieving the loss of a grandson. So Seneca writes these very beautiful and moving essays about grief. There's another one I like to point people to. Plutarch writes a letter to his wife after the loss of their infant
6:09 Ryan Holiday? child. So the crux, one of the interesting takeaways I took from Seneca's letter on grief that I think about, you know, he's talking to this woman who's lost his father. And he says, Look, we don't know what happens in the afterlife, right? So, so he says, either your father's like in a better place, or your father's in no place, or your father's in a worse place, right? But he says, like, in any case, would your father want you to feel terrible? Right? Like, would your father want to look down on you and feel that his absence has added pain to your life? Right? And he says, of course not. And so, so it's kind of, it's this fascinating essay.
6:52 Ryan Holiday? Where Seneca is just really spending some time sort of breaking down, I don't want to say some of the illogicalness of grief, but some of the assumptions we take for granted in our grief that makes that grief harder. And they're really quite beautiful and I think they would be helpful to your work. And when people email me and they go, you know, I just lost someone. What do the Stoics say about grief? I always point them to these articles.
7:20 Speaker 02 Thanks very much.
7:23 Ryan Holiday? Actually, sorry, I would say one other thing. There's a great book that I read a few years ago called A Measure of My Days by Florida Scott Maxwell. And it's sort of a meditations themed diary of a woman, I think in her 90s, who's dying. And it's quite beautiful and it feels very Stoic to me.
7:46 Ryan Holiday? Devoria? Did I pronounce that terribly?
7:50 Speaker 03 No, you didn't, although I did hand up.
7:53 Ryan Holiday? Oh, sorry. I thought it looked like it was.
7:56 Speaker 03 No, I was knitting.
7:57 Ryan Holiday? I'll put you on the thought anyway.
8:00 Ryan Holiday? What are you knitting?
8:01 Speaker 03 I'm knitting a sweater. I like to, when I'm listening, I sit and knit.
8:05 Ryan Holiday? Does it help you concentrate?
8:07 Speaker 03 Yeah, I can't sit and do nothing. I either have to write notes. But what we're listening to now is not the kind of thing where I'm sort of getting a stream of a lecture. So I'd be writing notes. So instead I'm knitting. We are, our book group is reading, though dying every day.
8:19 Ryan Holiday? Oh, really? What do you think of it so far?
8:23 Speaker 03 Well, we're enjoying it. We're wondering about the whole thing with Seneca. Like, okay, how are we supposed to view him? Is it the cynical view of Seneca as the hypocrite? Or of the wise Seneca? And I think your email today around that really shows you can be both. And I sometimes think we have this purist kind of thought these days, you see a lot on Twitter, where people have to be perfect or else we can't learn anything or like them in any way. So I feel like that you can take from that. And yet people can be hypocritical. They're not necessarily perfect.
8:55 Ryan Holiday? Yes, I feel like Rahm is a bit harsh on Seneca. And there's an interesting thing. So Epictetus says, until you know someone's reasons, how do you know that they did wrong? Now, I think life's a little bit more complicated than that, but it's an interesting question, which is, we've heard from, we hear from people who are observing Seneca from a distance. We hear from people who are observing Seneca after all the events have concluded. What we don't really hear from is Seneca, right? We never get Seneca explaining why he worked for Nero, right? And so perhaps, perhaps if he could explain it, we'd be like, you know what?
9:40 Ryan Holiday? It was better that you did it than that if you hadn't done it, right? Until we know their reasons, we're not quite sure. And so I think, I don't want to say that the jury's still out, but I do try to, I do try to remind myself that there's a certain unknowableness about what Seneca experienced and what he went through. But I, but I do try to, when I talk to people who have been in similar positions, I try to ask them, you know, I interviewed H.R. McMaster on the podcast, who is Trump's national security advisor. There's probably not a bigger personality difference on the planet than H.R. McMaster and Trump. Again, we don't have to get into the politics, but they are very different people with very different political views. And yet, you know, they found themselves working together.
10:24 Ryan Holiday? Some would say that, you know, McMaster should have resigned in anger or disgust or their differences. But, but it's, his answer was illustrative, I think. And I would point people to that episode as well. It gives you some context of Seneca's ethical dilemma. Let's do Lori.
10:49 Speaker 04 Ryan.
10:50 Ryan Holiday? Hi.
10:51 Speaker 04 It was great to talk to you because I've been listening to you in my head for like the past two months on Audible.
10:58 Speaker 04 Hey, my question is a little bit different. It's actually related to Marcus, right? So we know kind of what a great leader he was, filled with integrity. I'm interested in the fact that, right? He was married to one woman for a few decades.
11:12 Ryan Holiday? Yes.
11:12 Speaker 04 And you would think that someone of such great character would be married to someone who's of similar character, but, you know, we don't really hear much about her. So I'm kind of curious just to see, you know, what we do know about her? Or do we not know much?
11:24 Ryan Holiday? We, so we don't know much and what we do know is, or what we do hear is not the most positive.
11:32 Speaker 04 Interesting.
11:33 Ryan Holiday? So, and, and, and historians are sort of split on it. So from the sort of gossip of the time, it was said that she was repeatedly unfaithful, that, that she, she was, had expensive tastes, et cetera. But, but mostly what comes down to us is that the, is the claim that she was repeatedly unfaithful. Now, the, a lot of historians dismiss this as just sort of court gossip of the time and suspect that it's not true. I, I can't make heads or tails of it. I mean, I could see one argument where it's true and Marcus sort of stoically endures
12:15 Ryan Holiday? this humiliation and, and puts up with it. I could also see the argument where it's totally not true and Marcus and his wife stoically put up with the insinuations and the rumors, right? And you, and you could probably create a moral lesson from either one. There's probably also a lesson or a moral lesson there that like, you know, maybe Marcus is, is, is pure and, and, and good and, you know, hopes for the best in people. And this leads to a certain naivete and puts him in a position to be repeatedly taken. Advantage of or taken for granted by another person. Again, we don't really know any of it.
13:00 Ryan Holiday? The only, the only action we really have here. Well, I guess, I guess sort of two, two interesting pieces of evidence. One, they had something like 12 children together, uh, which is a lot. They're also beset by tragedy. The, the majority of the children do not survive to adulthood. So, you know, maybe there's an argument where the relationship starts really good. And then just no marriage can survive. You know, the death of a half dozen infants. I mean, that's just obscene. The other, uh, the other interesting piece of evidence is that after her death, Marcus deifies her, which is sort of the ultimate honor, uh, that the, that the emperor can bestow
13:42 Ryan Holiday? on a, you know, sort of a fallen member of the Roman house, uh, of the, of the royal household. And the fact that he does this, um, you know, he doesn't have to do it. If you, I've got to imagine if he felt sort of humiliated or, uh, you know, betrayed by this person, it probably wouldn't have done that. But again, we just, we don't, we don't know.
14:03 Speaker 04 All right. Well, thanks. Appreciate it.
14:04 Ryan Holiday? Yeah, of course. No, it's a great question. To me, the other question about Marcus is, you know, what does his marriage tell us about us? Tell us about him? And then what goes wrong with Commodus, his son, uh, who's about as bad as Joaquin Phoenix's character plays him in Gladiator? This is again, another, another failing and it is relatively accurate. So, you know, there's again, another argument where Marcus is a great philosopher and a great ruler, but something is just horribly wrong at home. And I think that gives us something that to think about and chew on.
14:44 Ryan Holiday? Being able to control your anger is a difficult but worthwhile goal. Will take time and effort, won't be free. But by changing your perspective and developing techniques to control your temper, it will ultimately be achievable and life-changing. So take the first step on the path to a calmer and more fulfilling future. Check out. Taming Your Temper: The 10 Day Stoic Guide to Controlling Your Anger. You can just go to dailystoic.com/anger.
15:25 Ryan Holiday? Thank you.
Previous Your Job is to Transition | Revenge Is A Dish Best Not Served Next This Will Sustain You | Make Honesty Your Only Policy Page updated September 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
