Celts-Knicks, the Sleeper Lakers, and 12 NBA Stories to Watch With Ryen Russillo

NBA Sundays are back! The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Celtics' 118-105 win over the Knicks (3:45), before hitting the biggest NBA subplots for the remaining regular season, including: the massively intriguing Lakers, the late-bloomer Warriors (27:49), the perplexing Timberwolves, the despondent Suns, and the outwardly miserable 76ers (0:00). Then, they close the show with some rapid-fire topics, including searching for Ja Morant, the wild-card Pistons, All-NBA battles, "Tank-a-Palooza" starting to heat up, and more (1:31:46)! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.® The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. The NBA season hitting full stride, don't foul out on your chance to win with America's number one sportsbook. Bet on fun markets like live quarter player props and parlays. Plus enjoy our new NBA player prop pages, your one stop shop for player props that include FanDuel's exclusive performance trends. Tracking the last five games for top markets. They even do that. The app is safe, secure, and easy to use. When you win, you'll get paid instantly. So download the app today. Bet with FanDuel, official partner of the NBA. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Listen to the end of this episode for additional

• 0:44Bill Simmons?

  details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Sundays with Rossello are back next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming for you on Monday. We did an Oscar winner. You can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify. You can also check out our Ringer Movies YouTube channel where it's going to be as well. All the videos and clips from this podcast are on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, but we are now a video podcast on Spotify. So you can Watch it. You can listen to it, whatever you want to do. Uh, one thing to promote Celtic

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  City, our nine-part Celtics docu-series that we did for HBO and Max is going to be Sunday, March 3rd, the first episode, nine straight weeks in a row. Uh, spent four years on this. Obviously meant a lot to me and uh, I think we did an awesome job. I can't wait for everybody to see it. I'm in Boston because we did the premiere on Friday night. Had a bunch of people there. I got to talk to Joe Mazzola about the town. So exciting. Joe Mazzola, I'm making him come on the podcast. He was, he was a really fun hang. But uh, but we had a really fun premiere of episode five, which was about um, a part of the eighties with the Celtics. So you know, that's in my willhouse. But uh, very excited for everybody to watch it.

• 2:53Bill Simmons?

  And we'll be talking about it a bunch over the next um, next few weeks. So wanted to mention FanDuel because on Tuesday on FanDuel Sportsbook, you have the Mavs and the Lakers playing for the first time since the blockbuster trade. So it's the first Luka revenge game of, I'm sure there's gonna be like 40 Luka revenge games. FanDuel is giving all customers a 50% same game parlay boost for that matchup. So just go all in one way or the other because the easy way to do this is be like, I'm gonna take the Lakers and I'm gonna take the overs for the Luka. If you're gonna take the overs, go big. Go like 40 plus, go take an assist. Um, try to stagger it so you get this huge thing or go the other way and just assume

• 3:36Bill Simmons?

  just about everybody's gonna be going on the over with Luka. So zag, do a couple unders. Do the couple unders with the Mavs to win. Either way, uh, 50% same game parlay boost. And remember, goes live on, on Tuesday. Look for it then. Claim the PBT, the profit boost token. Place your bet for Tuesday's big game. Look for it in the carousel on the FanDuel Sportsbook app. Coming up for the first time on Sunday this year, I think it's like year seven for us. Ryan Mercilow, we're gonna talk basketball and basketball, more basketball and we're gonna try to sprinkle in some goofier stuff as well. He's next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 4:35Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this 4:15 East Coast time because I'm in Boston. Just went to the Celtics Knicks game. It's another emotional year for us, Russillo. Sundays with Russillo, we're back, we made it. Another basketball season to talk about, complain about, break down. Plus, we have a whole bunch of other things too. We have the NFL drafts coming up. I'm sure you have some movie and music thoughts, maybe some Oscar thoughts, maybe some White Lotus thoughts. I never know what you're up to. How are you?

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I'm great. Lot of reading, lot of history, beginning of civilization. If you have any questions, we could to them maybe after the basketball.

• 5:10Bill Simmons?

  I'm ready. You want to talk some James Polk? Like, I don't know where you want to go.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  No, I'm just, I'm on this huge Susan Wise Bauer kick. But again, I think we should table it.

• 5:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay, we'll save it for later. I just went to Celtics Knicks. I have just a slew of thoughts. We're watching the game. I'm sitting with my dad and I just think the Knicks are a bad matchup for the Celtics. And we're saying that the whole time. We're like, this team can't play with us. And the Celts get up to like in the mid twenties, it's like 24, 26. And then the Knicks come roaring back. They come roaring back, man, Brunson and Towns. And we're watching like, should we be scared, Rich? Should we be scared? And then now it's like, it's nine, it's seven, then it's six. But we slowly realized that Tips has just left his starters in basically the whole game. And that's one of the reasons they're hanging around. And my dad's freaking out. I'm like, no, this, there's no way. Towns isn't going to play like 46 minutes. Like, we're, we're, we're fine. And then the Celts end up finishing him up.

• 6:06Bill Simmons?

  Here's, here's where I'll start with you. Does Tips know that the regular season, especially in the East, doesn't really matter? And that you just want to be one of the first four seeds? And that to put miles, like the miles that he put on some of his guys today is insanity? I don't get it. I just don't understand it.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  He doesn't care. I mean, I'm sure he understands it. In the brief time that I had access to him, we were at ESPN together. He's, he's so smart about basketball. Like, I think I left the room just going, do I know anything?

• 6:37Bill Simmons?

  You made you doubt yourself.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz I mean, I've told the story before, but we were watching a game together and then it was an inbounds. It was a simple inbounds play and I just went, what? What? And then he ran through like seven different things that you could do defending this inbound. And I just was like, Jesus. And look, this is what everybody says about him. Uh, we know that he's brilliant. But yeah, he doesn't care. And I think when you looked at the earlier part of this week, because New York, we know the record against the top three teams, Boston, OKC, uh, and Cleveland, they're 0-7 now. But they played in Chicago on Thursday and it was an overtime game. And here are the minutes. Precious, 46. McHale, 44. Cat, 43. Brunson, 38. McBride played 42.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  And then he played three other guys 17 minutes. So they go into that Cleveland game fresh off of that, where Cleveland, I think was coming off a back to back. And you could see within that game, you're like, they're toast. Boston had the extra rest day. New York had the rest. So, you know, that third quarter was awesome because Brunson and Cat are awesome. But like, I couldn't believe he put Cat back in after he left with the limp.

• 7:41Bill Simmons?

  After he twisted his ankle.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  They were down 18. It's like, do you want to get stuck with some Tatum isos? Yeah, with two minutes to go, let's do it.

• 7:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, he had, uh, we're looking up and I'm looking at the thing. I'm like, I don't feel like Towns has come out. My dad's like, no, no, he's come out. And then he played 33 of the first 36 minutes of the game, right? So he just went all in on that third quarter with his starters, basically.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  And they were great.

• 8:02Bill Simmons?

  Trying to hang around. And it was, but the Celtics were playing their bench guys too. And, you know, trying to keep their guys fresh for the fourth quarter. And then that fourth quarter started. And you could see it at the game. You could see like Hart, who was, I thought, really good. He's like, there, any stoppage, you could see his chest heaving and Towns started to slowly die because Towns was awesome. They ran out of gas and the Celtics knew it. They started targeting him and then Towns finally twisted his ankle. But I just watch stuff like that. And I, I know we've talked about this Tib stuff forever about how he doesn't care about the minutes, but I think it's really reckless. This team just needs to get to the playoffs with these five guys being able to play 40 minutes a game when we get to the playoffs. They don't need to do it now. You look at the standings, it just doesn't matter after

• 8:47Bill Simmons?

  the top four and whether they're going to be two, three or four. I don't really feel like it matters. I think it matters for them to be healthy, you know, and any Knicks fan I know is like, well, just wait till we get Mitchell back. It's like, all right, so that's going to be your big X factor in the playoffs. This guy who barely ever plays, keeping your fingers crossed on him, keeping your fingers crossed on Towns and, and six foot one Brunson and N'Ganobe who always gets hurt to just be able to roll like this for 40 minutes a game. I think it's irresponsible. I don't get it.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  We've spent so many years though, talking about guys not playing with effort, effort, culture, all that stuff came up big time this past week with the four nations tournament, how great that was. And I spent some time talking about just like, look, the sports are a little bit different, but I think the NBA is a much better place than, you know, when you go back five years ago. I mean, it depends on which snapshot you want to take of like, man, these guys miss a lot of games. And again, a lot of that stuff was team mandate. So I don't know that any of it, like, I know that actually the answer to it. None of us loved it. So I do feel guilty with what I think is Tib's approach that you know, when you're on his team, like this is what we do. Like this is what we do. This is how hard we play. And this is, this is the approach. And it seems like the players don't mind. It's just funny when they do those player surveys. It's like, which coach would you

• 10:02Speaker 01

  least want to play for? Tib's is almost always the answer because they see this stuff.

• 10:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then Towns is somebody that I just think, and I thought he was really good in the first, in the second and third quarter, I thought he was really good. But he's also somebody I think you have to be a little careful with. He hasn't exactly been Cal Ripken Jr. over the years, you know, but when they got back in the game, Brunson got cooking, which he does from time to time. The Celtics got, they did the same kind of the offense slow down, but Towns, who had Tatum and a bunch of forwards guarding him, which is Celtic's strategy, and then Towns was like, I'm gonna actually use my weight and I'm gonna bulldoze into dudes. And, you know, the refs were letting him do it. And all of a sudden, he went from like zero points to 20 in about, I don't know, it felt like 20 minutes of

• 10:51Bill Simmons?

  real time, not even game time. So when you watch the Knicks, when you see them, when they're all playing well, and you see the five guys, and they'll have these eight-minute stretches where it makes sense. I just don't think with the way he plays the minutes and the bench, I don't really take them seriously as a championship contender, which is one of the things I want to talk to you about today. I think they're one level below. I really only think it's OKC and Denver and the Celtics and Cleveland right now. And I have room for a bunch of other people that these next 30 games can climb in, but I think the Knicks are a level below those four teams right now.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  You're right. And it's not just today. And I thought Boston came out with like a great, like just an awesome approach, just pushing the ball in transition. You know, that's when their starting five, with those five guys playing, and you're going, okay, this almost looks unfair. Like, there's just, and Jaylen Brown was awful. I know he has points.

• 11:44Bill Simmons?

  So bad.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just couldn't understand like what his approach to the game was today, even though if you just box score, you'd be like, what are you guys talking about?

• 11:50Bill Simmons?

  It got better. It was a really bad first half. It got a little better as the game went along, but it was not a great game for him.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  So, you know, you're down 27. I mean, we could talk minutes, because you're right about the minutes part of it, but to get it from 27 to four is exhausting.

• 12:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, right.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  On top of whatever Tibbs is doing in the sub-pattern. And then Boston, you know, the, the only blemish on the entire like two-year resume of this team is that you'll go, are you guys shooting the other team into this game right now? Like, what the hell is going on? And a lot of that happened in the third quarter. But like, back to your original point. Did you have an open mind before today about the Knicks being in that one line of?

• 12:29Bill Simmons?

  Right, okay, because let's run through the resume.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  It's 0-7 now against the three teams in Boston, Cleveland, and OKC. And it's also not close. In those seven games, they're losing by an average of 20 points.

• 12:42Bill Simmons?

  And they're down big, yeah, they're down big in every game at some point in the game.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  These are blowout games and they've allowed 125 points per game against those three teams in those seven games. So the data, like, I really enjoy them. I think they're fun. I can't wait to see what happens with them in the playoffs. But as great as Cat has been, you can see against big wings and what Tatum's looking for. Like, Tatum had a couple, like, end of the first half, he had two switches into Cat where he drives right on him, right?

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  And, and I think one worked, one didn't. They weren't, like, one was a really tough make, the other was a decent look. And then that play at the very end when he hits the three, he knew like Cat was like, I don't want to run up because this guy's like attacking the shit out of me.

• 13:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Tatum comes off the screen knowing he's pulling up because Cat is so far away from him. And that's just what they're going to do. And you're right, like, maybe Mitchell Robinson helps. Of course, he'll help if he's healthy, but solving this seems like a massive ask of that guy.

• 13:42Bill Simmons?

  I think the Celtics are a very bad matchup for them. With all the guys they have to throw up Brunson, with all the ways they can attack Towns, with the fact that their two wings are just better than the Knicks' two wings, and those guys are really good. And, you know, I thought Josh Hart was fantastic today. And especially just watching, you know, there's stuff you can see on TV, but then in person, just the motor that he has. And now he's just trying to catch his breath every time the game stops. You can watch him, he's just like, taking these big breaths because he knows he's got to like go like a rabbit again. Um, but I think it's a bad matchup for them. And Cleveland, weirdly, is, I think, even though Cleveland's been great and they have 10 losses and they're playing after we tape this. I think Cleveland's a more realistic series for them than the Celtics are.

• 14:26Bill Simmons?

  With the with the size the Celts have now, the question with the Celtics is Porzingis, we saw today, who's moving great. Are we getting that guy in April and May?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:34Bill Simmons?

  Drew, they've been really kid gloves with the whole season. They just Chad Finn of the Boston Globe was writing that he's on the DJ plan. I thought that was great. I'm going to steal it from him. He's just on that, yo, man, just be there in April, May, June. We don't care about right now. Feel free to just, just whatever, pick your spots. Today, he gave a shit. When he gives a shit and Porzingis is healthy, this team is still, in my opinion, the best team in the league. I just don't know. Is that team going to be there in April and May? We'll see.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  They were so lucky with the injuries last year and then facing a Dallas team that wasn't going to be able to exploit some of the weaknesses to the point where they didn't even really need Porzingis. So the whole design of this Celtics team, the whole reason why you move the assets you do at the time, and then remember the contractual obligation to Porzingis, because like even if you liked him in that Washington season where he was pretty good, you're like, man, that is a lot. That's a leap of faith, but they had to do it to get him to opt out. So, look, when they're right, that first quarter, you're right. Like, I don't know what it looked like in person, so I'll defer to you here, but that first quarter was just a nice little reminder. And they've been on a really good run here, by the way, too, after that weird 500-place stretch, which basically is going

• 15:46Speaker 01

  to happen to anybody in today's NBA. But that first quarter, I was like, man, is this nasty? And they just do a great job. And here's the most important stat. Like, I'll ask it. What do you think the most important stat from today's box score was in this game?

• 15:59Bill Simmons?

  What was it? Rebounds?

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Brunson, zero free throw attempts.

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  Oh, because I had a Brunson thing for you. Something important happened today. There was a moment. My dad and I agreed. I think he's become the preeminent flopper in the NBA.

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  I actually have to put him.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  The reviewed play or the inbounds when he was coming right to left?

• 16:22Bill Simmons?

  It's just a whole bunch of them. He's doing it on both ends. He's doing it on defense and offense. By the way, kudos to him because it's working. But I think Harden's getting a little older, right? Maybe his best flopping days.

• 16:36Bill Simmons?

  Probably 2018, 19 range. Trey Young was there for a second, but I think some of the rule changes have gotten his head. Brunson's top of his game. He's flopping on picks. He's flopping, coming off screens. He's flopping when somebody bumps into him on a drive. He's flopping for charges. I, I think he's the complete package. It was some of the best flopping I've seen.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  He's all first team, no question.

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe I'm premature. I mean, he's clearly in the running for MVP. Maybe I'm vaulting him up too high, but I just, what I saw today, I was in awe.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  He didn't even get any free throws though. I mean, this is a low free throw attempt game. I think at the end of the third quarter, there was 16 total, or I think Cornet then took a couple. So

• 17:19Bill Simmons?

  They were letting them play, especially on the Towns drives. They were letting them play.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but see Towns, you know, it's, it's amazing how productive. I don't know if there's anything in the NBA that I dislike more from start to finish that's more productive than his drives. And I think they're better this year than they even were with Minnesota. Cause like

• 17:38Bill Simmons?

  Flinging them up.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  The Minnesota drives are like, what are you doing? And he's been so good. He's, this is the perfect role for him. Cause there's all these other guys. You could have a Mikail game. You can have an OG game. You know, Hart can go off. Brunson's still going to be the focal point. All this stuff. He's a stretch five, which I think is almost mandatory. If you're trying to be a title contender, but we know their defensive numbers are not good. We know what they are against those other top teams. And you know, today wasn't really close, man.

• 18:04Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't. Well, they also, it's weird with, with Bridges and OG. I texted during the game because one of my favorite Rusolo jokes is though, is, was Tobias Harris out there? Oh no, he was out there for the last hour. Like I always think of you anytime I'm watching a game and I'm like, oh, it's Mikail Bridges. I forgot he was playing. It's exciting. And then OG, but both of those guys had these really like quarter long stretches where they might inbound the bond. I'm like, oh yeah, Bridges, there he is. They haven't figured out the same way the Celtics, I think with White and Holiday who can, who can, you know, take a backseat because you have, Tatum has the ball a lot. They'll run the plays for Porzingis. Jaylen Brown will have his first five minutes of the second quarter

• 18:46Bill Simmons?

  as my dad's just bitching in the stands the entire time about the shots. And White and Holiday have figured out how to kind of sneak in and out and get little fast break layups or get like threes in the corner. And they're always involved. And what I saw today and what I've seen on TV too is there's just games where Bridges and OG just aren't involved.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Did it feel like it was anything that was happening to them or because like Brunson got off to a really slow start and then those guys go nuts. I mean, what was it 38 points in the third quarter?

• 19:17Bill Simmons?

  They were throwing everything at they were throwing everything at Brunson. They were really disciplined.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Because Brunson got Cornet a couple of times and then I thought there was another time where it was like the same movement where they're going to get Brunson down the left side and they brought Tatum over as like a third defender. They just were like, fine. You know, so I thought there was these little moments in there that kind of back up what you're saying. So go ahead.

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know, I was ready to almost leave the pod with Tatum. And then he had this really terrible stretch where I was like, this is still like the last hump for him because the first half of that game, his two way game, and you saw it in the Philly game too. And there's been a but and I feel like it's getting better as a year ago. His passing, it feels like he's going to be between seven and 10 assists almost every game now when he's locked in, his rebounding and his Swiss Army knife stuff that he does on D where he can guard basically everyone on the other team. I do feel like he's going up a level, but there's that still that last piece where it's like, he never has like

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  the awesome 48 minute, oh my God, he blew my doors off game. It's like three quarters of the four and that I think that's the last level for him. If you want to be on that SGA Jokic level, you've got to do it for the whole two and a half hours. And right now he's at about an hour 45. Does that sound too nitpicky?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  No, um, no, my thing with Tatum has been pretty consistent that as much as I loved him, and I think I appreciate him, that there was never going to be a time where like that guy's the best player in the world.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Like that seems like that seems like an impossible goal to accomplish. Would you agree with that?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Are you hesitating?

• 21:04Bill Simmons?

  No, because sometimes when I watch him,

• 21:08Bill Simmons?

  when he's really going well, I feel like he's got all the pieces, but I don't, at this point, I think it would have happened. I think we would have had some sort of nudge where we would have had some crazy stretch, you know, that all the greatest players have had, like what SGA just had, where SGA was just like, I'm just going to score 50 points a bunch of times now, and my team's just going to win every game. And, and it's just, that's the last, so he's like a level below. And that, you know, the, all the MVP ballot stuff, the MVP is basically done, it's the top two guys. But I think Tatum's, I think he's been the third best guy in the league this year. I would put him against Giannis, I would, I would pick Tatum. I think he's had a bigger impact on a winning team. I know his team's been a little bit better, but he's, the durability thing is the piece with him that I just think he doesn't get credit for. He fucking plays.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, look, this is the most I've ever appreciated him.

• 21:56Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  His passing, the way he beast guys, like a team, the other day, we were just kind of like bullshit because Goldsberry and I had done constructing our most complimentary starting five of today's players, right?

• 22:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  And I just, I put Tatum on it because I felt like he provides so much. I mean, he's basically playing point guard at this size.

• 22:17Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And I don't know that that gets talked about a lot nationally.

• 22:20Bill Simmons?

  And guarding towns on the other end, like that, there's nobody in the league doing that other than him, basically.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Right, which is what he did in the NBA Finals. Now, granted, the game's different, so it's not like he's down in the post against Moses Malone for 40 post ups a game, but he was, he was a center on defense and he's playing point guard. And, you know, maybe somebody else brings the ball up, but then they bring it back to him and it's his decision making. And so, you know, maybe there's some output stuff that doesn't line up with the SGAs or the nights where Ant goes fucking crazy, you know, which is just so much fun to watch. Like Ant having one of those nights is probably still my favorite thing, other than just a reminiscent Curry flamethrower game.

• 23:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Honestly, I'm probably, I would tell you like the certain moments with Ant that I probably still like more than any other single player in the league. But, you know, Tatum just has more options around him. I still would say Boston at its peak has more options offensively than even Oklahoma City does. I don't know that there would be much of an argument there. So even though you're not getting that peak output that would maybe put him in the belt conversation, I am so happy with his approach that it's, I'll take this. His assist ratio on the advanced stuff has never been better. You know, a lot of the advanced metrics are like peak for him, but there's also, it's not just a counting thing. It's not even the metrics. There's just an eye test thing with him where how steady he is. Like he had a baseline drive on OG where he went right into him and moved him off the spot and got the free throws.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  And I'm like, how many other guys 20 plus feet away would have the balls to drive at OG and look like the stronger player? So I've never like, I've never been more in love with his game than what I've seen this season.

• 23:59Bill Simmons?

  That's how I felt today watching it. I just feel like he's maximized a lot of stuff that he's been working on the last couple of years. And if you took this version of Tatum and you put this version in the 22 finals, I think they beat the Warriors. And he wasn't even close to being able to do 40% of the stuff that he can do now. I love the rebounding. I don't think he gets enough credit for that. And I love the durability and the fact, you know, JJ said something about this because he was talking about the Lakers. This is even before the Dallas game when he was, you know, because they're way better on defense, the Lakers. I think they're like third in defensive rating in the last 20 games. And, you know, they were even playing better before the trade. And somebody asked him what was different. And he's like, you know, the NBA is about just playing hard,

• 24:41Bill Simmons?

  just like making sure your team plays hard every night. And I think that's a skill that Tatum, where if he's taken off a quarter in Charlotte, you really notice it because of the, the level of intensity that he has game to game, quarter to quarter, half to half. When he doesn't have, you're like, oh shit, what's wrong with Tatum? What's he doing? He's just jacking up shots. Why isn't he rebounding? Like it's really like glaring. So anyway, I think he should get probably more credit for for that. I don't know if there's an extra half step for him. Maybe we'll find out in the playoffs.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  You really think you really think it's well, I think you've already answered that it's kind of a closed case. But I mean, at any point, do you think, I mean, I guess he's got a couple of years to go. But is he going to surpass SGA?

• 25:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it's ever going to be as easy like that. For the Jokic stuff, that Jokic night to night, it's just easy for him to create shots for everybody, the best possible shots. Right? Last night's a bad example, but for the most part, SGA is just like, he's just getting the 35. He's just getting the 40. It doesn't matter what you're doing. He's just going to get to where his points are. And I think Luca is in that category too. I don't know if Tatum's ever going to be at that level. But I think to me, he reminds me, it's a weird one. And I know I'm thinking about it probably because we just finished this nine part Celtics docu series. But to me, he's more like a Havlicek type. He's the Swiss Army knife that does all these different things for your team.

• 26:08Bill Simmons?

  He's never the best scorer in the league. He's never the best assist guy, but he just, he's just additive. And I think that's the level that he's gotten to. So he probably reminds me of Havlicek the most, even though he's taller and, you know, it's got size, all that stuff, but just like they could play small ball center with them if they wanted. He could also play point guard for them if he wanted. The other thing with the Celtics that I think Cornet has been playing really well and Pritchard's been up and down. Hazard's coming back, but they're getting more of a bench than I think. And then Horford being able to only play like 18, 20 minutes. Their bench is is back. And I think I wouldn't be surprised if they went on a little run here over the next, uh, next three, four weeks because they haven't really had a run this season.

• 26:50Bill Simmons?

  You know, we're going to talk about that after the break, some teams that we think might make an actual run. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a streak like, have you been, have you felt like they've had one kick ass three week stretch? Other than like you'd have to go back to November. I just don't remember it.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, aren't they, are they 12 and 3, 11 and 4 in the last 15? I mean, I know it was.

• 27:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but I'm talking about like what the stuff they were doing last year where they were just like ripping people's heads off for three straight weeks.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're 10 and 2 in their last 12.

• 27:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  This, this kind of feels like it other than, you know, the start of their 92. They also had that, I don't know, what is it? Seven game stretch there in November. So the weird thing was just a couple of games against lesser opponents, a Toronto game. They could have lost a New Orleans game and the standard for them is so much higher. But that first quarter was so impressive that, you know, I was just a nice little reminder, I think on a national stage for everybody of like, this is what this team is capable of and I don't know that there's anybody else. Granted, you talk about the OKC defense, which I'm sure we'll get to a little bit later today. Might be the tiebreaker for a lot of different people, but those first 12 minutes were just awesome.

• 28:00Bill Simmons?

  Let's take a break and I want to talk about teams that can make an actual run. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. And bundling home and auto? It's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 28:31Bill Simmons?

  Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. So I want to talk about intriguing subplots with 30 games left. And some of them are easy to figure out and some of them are a little harder to figure out. But the number one subplot to me, and I can't believe I'm even saying this and it makes me mad that we're in this position, but what can you do? I think the Lakers are the number one subplot to watch over the next 30 games. The Denver game was so interesting last night to see like the real Luca in a Lakers game. And to watch, you know, their centers, whatever, they're just double teaming Jokic. They're just going to be happy with Westbrook and those like whoever, fine, shoot 16 for 41 from three. We don't care. We got to take out Jokic.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  But the thing that I really noticed that people talked about when they made the trade was just 48 minutes of Luca and LeBron or Luca or LeBron, but you always have somebody out there who just has this crazy IQ and is a really good offensive player. And I've never wavered from thinking Luca was going to be awesome on this team. I just thought it was scary last night. And if I'm in the West, I think there's four teams that can win the title and we can talk about a couple of wild cards. I think the Lakers are an official wild card for me.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  I agree. And it's the defensive numbers. Like you mentioned it, if you go back the last 15, that's the number one defense in the league. They're 12 and 3. It's the best record over the last 15.

• 30:00Bill Simmons?

  Do you understand that? What's your explanation for that, other than just they're playing hard?

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think having some of the pieces, I thought Rui played his ass off last night, both. I mean, you can look at the points, but it was what he was doing defensively. Now, granted, Vando comes in and just hacks the shit out of Jokic, but you know, it's like, they're not going to call all of these, although they tried to call all of them on Vinny.

• 30:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Because he didn't play a ton of minutes. But you know, the Cam Reddish thing seems over. The Dalton Connect minutes are limited if you start looking at these things. So I think we gave Vincent being healthy with Vando being healthy, with them liking this Rui center matchup stuff, because they're basically forced to figure this out because the Jackson Hayes minutes usually aren't that great. Because the longer he's out there, the longer there's just going to be something that happens. And specific to last night, Bill, I loved that game. Okay?

• 30:51Bill Simmons?

  Me too. I thought it was really impressive.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Because we look at the playoff and you go bracket wise, like how far can LA go? I was like, well, they're going to run it to Denver again. So that's not going to work. And last night's one result. But I thought this coaching staff showed the difference where it's always about the roster for me. But there are little times like Kenny Atkinson this year with Cleveland, like clearly there's something better with this, with his approach to basketball. I think JJ and this staff did such a fantastic job of last night's preparation. The possessions, when you really looked at what they were doing, there's these non spacing lineups that Denver runs out there outside of Jokic. Where the Lakers are like, if this is what you're going to run out, like, we are not going to pay attention to Aaron Gordon. We're not going to care about Westbrook. They had a play, and I'll, I'll finish here, but LeBron was on Jokic kind of in the paint, left side.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Dalton is in the dunker spot, ignoring Aaron Gordon. Okay, he's basically under the rim. The other two wing players to the right, the Lakers defenders are in the paint. So that's four players in the paint against Jokic. The only one that was providing any spacing was Michael Porter Jr. At the top of the key and Rui was defending him, but Rui was only like a foot beyond the free throw line. And you saw possession after possession where you could see the Lakers like specifically the way they prepped that game last night. I think that's a credit to JJ and the staff going, we've got to come up with something new that's Jokic specific. And it worked. And, you know, it really wasn't much of a game on top of all the Luca stuff that I know you want to get to.

• 32:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, they did the same thing that that Celtics game that we both went to in LA. Where they kicked the Celtics ass and part of it was they just were really well prepared. And they used a bunch of things against the Celtics that I had kind of been waiting for, you know, somebody to do. It's like, oh, you're going to try to force it to Porzingis? Great. That's going to throw your whole team out of whack. Like, keep, keep giving the ball. And Porzingis had a good first quarter and nobody else did. And then it's like, oh, here's the top of the second quarter. This is when Jalen tries to get his offense for six minutes. We're going to make it really hard for him. And it was just, you were just watching it going, oh, this team's got their shit together. Last night against Denver, you would think, well, why doesn't everybody do that against Jokic? First of all, it's

• 33:00Bill Simmons?

  hard to do it. Second of all, it's hard to commit to it. And your guys have to be really disciplined with it. But they also have smart players. Like, everyone makes fun of Luca's defense, but he's still a really smart basketball player, right? LeBron. I think has been noticeably better on defense for what a month and a half now.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  I don't know what the timeline is.

• 33:19Bill Simmons?

  Where we were the first month of the season where it was like, oh my God, he's just not playing D. He's a DH now. Now he's really active and they just have size and physicality that I think they you saw it against the Celtics. They bullied the Celtics now, you know, slightly different team. But when they have those, when they have Rui and LeBron and Luke all together like those, that's like 800 pounds of dudes.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  So are you in? Are you in? Are they your fifth team? Are they the first team outside of your tier one playoff like title contenders?

• 33:51Bill Simmons?

  I wrote down.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  You tiered us up?

• 33:54Bill Simmons?

  No, I wrote down things I like about them and the number one thing is just always having Luca or LeBron out there. One of the two or both. I think it's just, it's just really hard to play them. You don't have a moment like you had with the Knicks today where Brunson has to sit down. It's like, all right, it's campaign time. Cross your fingers. Like the Lakers just never have that.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Campaign was nice though, that first shift.

• 34:14Bill Simmons?

  He was, he was. He made three in a row.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  That's probably the best thing ever for a Knicks opponent. Be like, hey, don't forget like tight game second half. Campaign made three in a row in the first half, so that's good for us.

• 34:24Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna think he can get to 20. The fact that the defensive numbers are like if they were ninth or 11th, the Lakers. I'd be like, okay, that's a little fluky. There's probably some, when you're in the top five, when you're in top three, like that's not fluky at some point. I think JJ's a legitimately good coach.

• 34:45Bill Simmons?

  And I thought what they did last night to Joker, who was terrible because they made him terrible. But then you just look at it. It's just that at some point it's math. Last night LeBron and Luca had 59, 19 and 12. If you're gonna get numbers that look like that from your best two guys, you're gonna be heard from from a couple playoff rounds. So if I was a Laker fan, I'd be excited, but this is why we all went nuts with the trade happen. This is fucking crazy. You don't just get to add the fourth best guy on your team. In the league to your team, just, you know, for Anthony Davis, Max Christie, who by the way, has been playing great.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, he has been good. I think some of the worst anti LeBron content that I've ever seen.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Was Luca's stat lines, those first three games with LeBron? Like I get if you hate LeBron, you hate LeBron, but come up with better evidence than that. Cause I went to Luca's first game. You know, that he had played like two months. I went to crypto that night to watch him play against Utah. And he was so tired, like four times up and down the court. I'm like, oh man, I'm like, he's so tired. Like he doesn't even, he hasn't been complaining. Cause he's on a new team. Like you haven't seen him. And it was kind of funny, like obviously last night's the best that he's looked with the Lakers. That first half was incredible. The way he was kind of getting into a shot and not like, basketball is funny, man. You can be this incredible player.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Here we are talking about somebody who has a chance to be the best player in the world. And it's like, I'm, I'm new here, so I'm just trying to fit in for a little bit.

• 36:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  And if, and if you're a coach and you're, it's Luca, you're like, don't be trying to fit in too. Just do what you do and then we'll figure it out around you. And just because the stats were bad and then they had the weird breaks, like all that stuff was so stupid. He was great last night. It was funny too, cause he, he made a play and then he cycled out of the three point line was wide open. And he didn't get the ball back. And it's the first time I've seen him pissed with the Lakers and he put his hands up like you idiots. Like what are you, what are you doing? And I'm going, this is great. This is, this is like, that's what you want out of this dude. You want him pissed that he didn't get the ball back. So I'm, I'm shocked the defensive numbers are that good. The last 15, it's been a big part of this turnaround.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  They finally beat Denver, so I'm not ready to say that they've solved Denver. You know, there's just going to be some spacing stuff in the playoffs where if it's Westbrook or if it's Brown. And I think even Michael Porter Jr.'s like such a coin toss game. Gordon is a matchup specific guy, but they're going to ignore him even though he's shooting like over 40% from three. They just did a great job of loading up on all this stuff. But look, man, your closing group in a tight playoff game, if the three perimeter dudes are LeBron, Luca and Reeves. I have a hard time believing that defense is going to be just living on stops though in the playoffs. Right?

• 37:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're probably trying to outscore.

• 37:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the, the Luca dialogue was. I feel like a lot of the sports dialogue is just getting worse because it's it's it's just this quick rush to whatever judgment, you know, he could have one bad game, his first Laker game, and everyone's like, oh, my God, this is why the Mavs traded him. And it's, nobody thinks of the human element of this guy thought he was going to be the next Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas. He had no idea the trade was coming. They trade him. He's got to move to LA. He's got to figure out where he's going to live. He's taking shit about that. He's got a drinking problem and that he eats too much and they didn't want to give the max and they're just, you know, laying into him left and right, leaking stuff to make him look bad. On top of that, he's got to figure out how he fits in this new team. He's

• 38:19Bill Simmons?

  got to play with LeBron, who's this guy he grew up watching, right? He's got to figure out how he fits in offense, new coaching staff. He's not in shape. It's like, oh, you think this is going to go bad for like a week? Yeah, and he hadn't played. He hadn't played in two months. He hadn't played basketball. Like Perkins, three day Perkins tweeted three days ago, it's going to be another two, three weeks before we see the real Luka he is to get in basketball shape, get his legs under. And then last night, he tweets, like I said, give Luka time. It's like, yeah, no kidding. We gotta give Luka time, sure, to adjust to his new team and get back in shape. I'm pretty sure he'll be able to figure this out. He's had one of the five best offensive starts that anybody in the history of the

• 39:01Bill Simmons?

  NBA in their first seven years. I think we're going to be okay with Luka Doncic. I'm not worried. But people were worried. It's I don't know.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Who was really like, who did you respect that is what was worried?

• 39:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's but some people have platforms who this is, this is kind of what you do. You just go nuts, get mad. Luka Doncic was terrible. This is why the Mavericks traded him.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I would say if over 50% of your tweets are about LeBron or Jordan, then you should just be banned from the platform.

• 39:31Bill Simmons?

  It's fair. We talked to Elon about it. Um, so.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Have you been hanging out with him much lately?

• 39:36Bill Simmons?

  Haven't talked to him. Um, Lakers have the six best odds on FanDuel right now, so it's not, it's not a hot take to say, oh, I think they're a title contender. I think that's where they are. I think they're in that wild card team. I went back and I looked at, uh, I think this, this needs a name. I came up with post all-star late bloomer, but I think we could do better.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  I don't know. That sounds great.

• 39:59Bill Simmons?

  Thanks.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 40:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, these teams that over the course of the last 30 games at some point, got their shit together and became a real contender. So the reason I thought of this was because we watched it happen with Dallas last year. Dallas was 16 and four to finish the season. They were fifth net. They just, remember they had a big winning streak, then they had a losing streak and then they started winning again. And at some point, it felt like there might be something there in a real way, right? 2023, it happened with the Lakers. They were 16 and seven down the stretch, fourth net. They ended up making the Western Finals. 2022 was when the Celtics were they 25 and 25, then went on the run. Their last 22 games, they were 17 and five, first in net.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Were they below 500 too? Like in January?

• 40:45Bill Simmons?

  It might have been, maybe 24, 25. They made the finals. I threw out the two strike, uh, not strike, the COVID years. And then in 2019, Portland, finished the last 25, 19 and six, fourth net, and they made the Western Finals. So this does, there is a team, there's a track record of a team we didn't think was in the top three or top four moves up there. And for me, it's either the Lakers or Golden State. And we're taping this right now as, uh, as Golden State's playing and they're beating up on Dallas, but those would be my two picks. Golden State or the Lakers. And I'd probably lean Lakers because of, because of Luca and the talent. Who would you have?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  It feels like the Knicks are on the Lakers line of this though, right?

• 41:26Bill Simmons?

  That's fair. But I don't think they, would you necessarily say they would be an out of nowhere team? I guess it could conceivably happen. I, I think they're more likely to have more injuries than weird shit happen than to go on a run. But maybe I'm wrong.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Okay, but here's, here's something that I, I like about the Lakers. Cause I think this is always an important thing. And because I think guys play more often now, cause this could get really misleading sometimes. You're looking at like a matchups against the better teams. You're like, okay, who was there, you know? Like even when I go through those Knicks seven games, it's basically everybody played in those games for the Knicks. I think OG missed one.

• 42:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  You know, there's different times where you go head to head and you're, you're looking at it, getting ready for the playoffs. But like, how do they do against each other? You're like, all these guys missed these games. But again, like I said, it's been a little bit better. Uh, the Lakers are one of three teams in the West with a winning record against teams 500 or better. So clearly OKC's 20 and nine. The Rockets are 20 and 15 and the Lakers are 15 and 12. And I think that's important. Memphis is under 500, Denver's under 500, the Clippers are under 500, Minnesota's under 500. So again, like I said, only three teams, the rest of them are, are all under 500. Um, I think for me on the Lakers part of it is we're totally aligned on the Luca thing. Like, give me a break. Like this guy at this age with his track record and because he hasn't played in two months. So you're like, if you were watching these early games going, what's wrong?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  So this is what you think it's going to be now? You just think this is who Luca is going to be like?

• 42:49Bill Simmons?

  It's just gonna be a complete mess.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you know how absurd that is? So it's, we're not even at peak Luca. They're putting together this performance. They have this defensive profile the last month or so. But you know, bracket it out. Four or five, they're playing Houston. You're probably picking the Lakers because you trust their offense more than you trust Houston's offense, right? Okay, then, then guess what's waiting for them on the other line?

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  Sadly, sadly I did this and it, as you know, I hate the Lakers and this made me sad.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Okay, but how?

• 43:19Bill Simmons?

  Going series by series, I was like, oh my God, they're gonna fucking make the Western Finals.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Wait, so they're beating Oklahoma City in a one, four matchup? You're crazy.

• 43:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh no, I'm just saying there's a scenario with these brackets where if they're not four or five, if they can somehow avoid OKC till the Western Finals, right?

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And then you think they're gonna beat Oklahoma City?

• 43:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, so they would have to get to two or three.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Okay, all right.

• 43:42Bill Simmons?

  Which I think is completely, completely reasonable. Right now, they're 34 and 21. Memphis is 37-19 and Denver's 37 and 20. I think they have to leapfrog. I don't think they'd want to play OKC, but I also wouldn't blindly pick OKC against, against Luca LeBron either. Would you?

• 44:00Bill Simmons?

  I mean, I know, I would pick them to win, but I wouldn't be like, I wouldn't be like, oh, lock it in, write it in. May, in marker that OKC is a hundred percent winning. I'd be a little nervous.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Well, I want to see more of the Chet stuff, but defensively, the Chet stuff has been really good. So.

• 44:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's not the same as the Luca thing, but I mean, we're looking at Chet missing three months and then trying to come back. He's not taking a ton of shot. Like, I can't wait to see what that guy looks like and what this team looks like. So there's just, but they still have a massive issue with certain matchup bigs and normally I would say, what are you going to do against Jokic? Like, do you really think you're going to survive seven games against, like, having, Rui was great last night. But let's not lose our minds about who this team is.

• 44:43Bill Simmons?

  I still have Denver and OKC in the Western Finals. But I think if you start thinking about series by series, game by game, this Lakers team is scary, especially with the fact that they're actually well coached. Right? And there's, they're a matchup team. I think they're a team that could win on the road in a game seven. Right? How many teams could actually go on the road and win a game seven? It's not the longest possible list. This is a team that would not be afraid to go on the road. I think the Vincent thing is important for them too. Because that's a guy who they signed who's been banged up or sucked for a year and a half. And then people forgot that he wasn't good, that people forgot that he was actually good and valuable in Miami and was in big games for them.

• 45:23Bill Simmons?

  And kind of knows where to go and what to do. He's one of those guys and you need a guy like that on a weird team like this. And the fact that Reeves has gone up a level. And JJ loves Reeves. I mean, that the best thing JJ and LeBron have done have been just pump Reeves up, pump him up, make him really think he's this gifted offensive player. And I think he's playing with so much confidence now. Like he's, how many teams have a, a, a third guy who's as good of an offensive player as Reeves is? On a long list.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  It isn't a very long list. I mean, Pat Bev really went for it last night. I think he tweeted out they have the best one through four in the NBA. And I was like, who's the fourth?

• 45:58Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  It was like Rui. I'm like, all right, going, I think you're forgetting about Boston and then OKC with chat. Uh, I think there's a lot of guys that you could pick from there that would be in the conversation. But as far as like number three guys with with Reeves, I mean, is it, is it Derrick White? Is it?

• 46:16Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking somebody on Cleveland.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Is Mobley?

• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  Mobley?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  It's just a completely different kind of player. Like, I'd rather have Mobley than Reeves, but offensively, like initiating your own stuff, it's not even a conversation. Reeves is so good at it. Right?

• 46:28Bill Simmons?

  So when you're talking about good offensive players, a good litmus test is that guy scored 45 last night. Are you surprised? Right? Like Derrick White scored 45. I'd be like, what? Did he make like 12 threes? What happened? But Reeves had that game the other day when everybody was hurt. What did he have like 38, 40?

• 46:48Speaker 01

  No, he had 45. He was 14 to 26. Right.

• 46:50Bill Simmons?

  That's right. I wasn't shocked.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the other starters are Dorian Finney Smith, who by the way, like, we hadn't even mentioned yet for the defensive part of what they've done.

• 47:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  You know, getting, getting D'Angelo Russell away from this basketball team. You know, I try to tell you guys, Lakers fans, I know, I get it. You know, he makes a couple threes and points and you guys are super into that. But getting him away from this group has also been a big transition from who they are right now. And like, I feel bad. We didn't even mention Dorian Finney Smith at this point. I mean, he made one shot last night and he was a plus 20.

• 47:24Bill Simmons?

  That trade made me mad.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Why? Because you liked D'Angelo Russell so much?

• 47:30Bill Simmons?

  No, because I like the, I wanted the Lakers to not be good. I said, fuck, they got Finney Smith. They, Finney Smith's good. He's an additive player. Um, there were some guys in around the trade deadline that I was wondering, like, I still can't believe the Lakers didn't go after Nick Claxton.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Was he available though?

• 47:46Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what. What are the Nets doing? I mean,

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Playing their ass off.

• 47:53Bill Simmons?

  I know, but they traded to get their picks back for some tanking plan and then they just can't stop beating teams.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  I know. I just don't think Philly was ready for the Keon Johnson Watford two man game to close. They had no scouting report on that.

• 48:06Bill Simmons?

  Watford was like, I gotta, I gotta get this video to the scouts.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  I tried to turn that game off like four different times last night.

• 48:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you couldn't.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  I hate, I hate watching the Sixers play basketball.

• 48:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Uh, they are disgusting. Okay. I can't, but I can't turn it off. And then I was like, it's close. And I'm like, look at Brooklyn. Look at this team.

• 48:28Bill Simmons?

  No, they can't stop.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  It's now they're ahead of them. They're ahead of them in the standings in the East. That flipped it.

• 48:33Bill Simmons?

  In that Philly game, had a couple of moments where they blew the lead and like, all right, valiant effort.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 48:39Bill Simmons?

  Somebody else would hit a three and they also they'd be winning again. Uh, whatever Philly is doing to Embiid is one of the weirdest subplots of not just the year, but the decade. I have no idea why he's playing and he looks miserable. He's falling down. I think twice as much as he's ever fallen down. Uh, looks like he's legitimately hurt.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  What's his F per 100, do you know?

• 48:59Bill Simmons?

  I think this is the highest the last couple of weeks. He's just, he had that play when he ran in to contest a play in the corner and just kind of went into the third row. He couldn't stop. It's pretty, uh, it's pretty brutal. So the case for Golden State really quick for to be the late bloomer is just the combo of Jimmy, I don't know what it is about Steph. It would be the greatest feature somebody wrote, but it just seems like everybody that passes through Steph's life, they turn into Gandhi for like the first three weeks. Like the way they talk about him, it's just like this religious experience to be Steph's teammate. And Jimmy is like so happy, like there was that clip of him diagramming plays in the huddle. This is a guy who was just sitting next to the water cooler.

• 49:42Bill Simmons?

  The last three months of the Miami season. And now he's like, Draymond, come here. I have an idea for a high screen. And he's just so invigorated and I think they're legitimately dangerous looking at their schedule.

• 49:55Bill Simmons?

  And they're beating Dallas today as we're taping, but they got Charlotte, Orlando's a mess, at Philly. Great. At Charlotte, at Knicks, at Nets. And then they have a seven game home stand against Detroit, Portland, Sacramento, Knicks, Denver, Milwaukee, Toronto, like. It's a team that could go on like a 12 to 2 run and I wouldn't be surprised. So that that would be the other one I'm kind of looking at. I guess the thing that the thing to watch is whether Curry can go up a level again or not. Cause we haven't seen it this year from him.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  His life looks a lot easier having somebody like Jimmy Butler out.

• 50:25Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  And the shooting numbers would back it up. The three point shooting would back it up. Even watching the beginning of today's game, even though it wasn't just super aggressive, like having Butler just be somebody else that people are worried about. And of course they ran some other play where it's like Curry's the lead block on the cut. So everybody freaks out and then Butler kind of slips a screen and then he's the second cutter behind it and he's wide open in a way that, you know, he's probably like, this must be, I just can't imagine playing basketball for a living and then getting the chance. Like no wonder everybody's in a good mood. They're like, this is what happens? Like when he moves, all of this other shit happens and then now my life is like this much easier. Although I do have to point out on a couple of broadcasts, like our memories can't be this

• 51:09Speaker 01

  short. Like Butler has a nice game. He's super aggressive. I mean, he was taking 10 shots a game for Miami. It was the lowest field goal.

• 51:16Bill Simmons?

  Not going to foul line at all. Yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  No, he was actually still was like not, he's, he's one of the most like hyper free throw rate guys in the league because he pump fakes at the rim and guys just go for it all the time. So like if you played him in a series, you go, you guys are going to stay down against him. Now he's shooting a million free throws, but he's just more aggressive now. You can tell he's taking 13 shots a game. Again, the shot count goes down because he's taking so many free throws, right? But he, for all the stuff that he talked about in Miami, like they took my joy from me. Like he broke up with a quarterback. Uh, you're just going like, we just saw this guy destroy his value around the league and he makes a couple of cuts and hits some free throws. And it's like,

• 52:00Speaker 01

  man, Golden State, like, you know, everybody's, Golden State's probably still scared to death of like what the long-term thing could be here. But in the short-term, it's, it's awesome to see, you know, some of these possessions late in games where you could just see Steph being like,

• 52:16Speaker 01

  I'm running around. I get the ball. I'm trapped. I throw it to somebody else and I don't even want to take some of these shots. And then you have people being like, oh, his, his, his shooting is dipping. It's like, well, no shit. So I think his life is just gonna be a lot easier now. I still don't even think they're in the Lakers class, though. Are they, you have them in the Lakers class?

• 52:35Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I want to watch it for a couple of weeks. Cause yeah.

• 52:39Bill Simmons?

  Like Butler, he's averaging almost 10 free throws a game for Golden State. As we're taping this, they're beating Dallas by 20 and he's already six for six. He's plus 24 in the game, but watching the way he's playing with these guys, it, it's weird. It reminded me of when Moss got to the 07 Pats and was just like so delighted to be in a real offense with Brady and he was just like skipping around, right? And just so happy and had so much space and knew that if he was gonna do whatever, the ball was gonna be there. And Butler, watching the space that he has, but also the connection he has with Draymond, I wasn't prepared for. I wish we were watching the game right now. But the, the high IQ thing he has with Draymond, I think has been fun

• 53:22Bill Simmons?

  to watch where he's posting up and Draymond's at the top. They're playing him this weird two man game, but everybody's so scared of the courage shooting.

• 53:31Bill Simmons?

  I'm, I'm not counting this team out.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  It reminds me a bit of like when Brian Heideck was cast as the pool guy in Melrose Place and he was like, look, I'm just, I'm just happy to be here.

• 53:42Bill Simmons?

  Who is it? Brian who?

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Heideck.

• 53:45Bill Simmons?

  Who's that?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  He's, he played.

• 53:47Bill Simmons?

  Brian Heideck?

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, he played the pool guy in Melrose Place. It just reminds me a lot of that.

• 53:51Bill Simmons?

  Pool guy in Melrose Place? I feel like you're making this up.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Google it.

• 53:57Bill Simmons?

  Brian Heideck. So is there anybody else you would put on the late bloomer list?

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Late bloomer list? Uh, is there any, is there any hope for a healthy Orlando?

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  So I had them marked down. They've been so, I mean, they were six and 14 in their last 20. So there's only a

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Their offense in their last, their last month, they're the, they're the third or fourth worst offense in the NBA. And boy, when it's bad on offense for the Magic, I'm surprised it was that high that they were only 27.

• 54:28Bill Simmons?

  So the other three had marked down. It's not going to be Detroit, even though there's a lot of good Detroit numbers for the last 20, 25 games.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  How many people do you think right now know what seed Detroit is?

• 54:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Not only is Detroit, for the people listening, probably locked into the six seed. It's not like an easy series for the Knicks. Like they're going to be favored. I would pick the Knicks, but I don't know if that's like the easiest series possible for them. The other two teams I have Minnesota, just because who knows 31 and 26, but maybe the, maybe something

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Is Randall playing? I'm out.

• 55:03Bill Simmons?

  Is that good or bad? If Randall's playing, you're out. Okay. And then, uh, the only other one, I mean, Dallas, I guess we have to watch, but the only other one I was thinking was the Clippers. If, if there's like a long, healthy Kawhi stretch, a Bogdanovich resurgence. They're really well coached like the Lakers and, um, you know, could, could something blossom with them in March? I wouldn't rule it out.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  You want to do a little Clippers profile or do you want to save it?

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  Want to take a break?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's take a break.

• 55:37Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 56:19Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. All right, more 30 games left, subplots. So your pick would be the Lakers. I think I agree with you, but I have Golden State a little closer than you do for a possible late bloomer. Anybody else?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad. I don't think we spent enough time on Minnesota because I think we did 10 seconds on it. And I know they lost in the Houston game. That was just kind of a frustrating game. They didn't have Rudy, but that, you know, sometimes is that play to their strength now? When you look at some of the declining Rudy stuff? But then that also means Houston can go small because even Houston against Utah last night, they lost because they were just like Utah's size bothered Houston. And granted, Houston's kind of rotating some guys in and out. So they're not playing with like the full cast of guys. So look, sometimes you're just going to lose to Utah when George decides to go all first team NBA. But let's just say, okay, open like open to the idea. Like, I feel a little bit better about Minnesota maybe than I did.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Because in the beginning of the year, when it was frustrating, it was like this team's healthy and these other teams are hurt and they're losing to these teams. But there's just a Randall stretch here where it's like, man, this, they might just be better without this guy. And they haven't had DiVincenzo for a month either.

• 58:00Bill Simmons?

  You're going to go might for that?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  They are.

• 58:04Bill Simmons?

  I just think they're unquestionably better when he's not out there for them. I don't know. I've been watching basketball my whole life. It's just, he screws up the spacing. He, he, he's might be a good player on other teams for that team. He does not make sense to me.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  He's good for 20. You know, and it's like, okay, but there's just a lot of other stuff that that we'd need for him. So.

• 58:24Bill Simmons?

  Here's what I don't love with Minnesota.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Okay, give it to me.

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  As you know, I'm a I'm on the amp and wagon. There's been a lot of really high volume field goal games for him.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:37Bill Simmons?

  That I can't really explain. Like, even if you just go into the in in January and February this year. He had a 31 shot game, he had a 29 shot game. Uh, 25, 28, so just the last two weeks, 28, 25, 28, 33, 18, 32.

• 59:00Bill Simmons?

  I I don't think they're winning three playoff rounds with that happening would be my point. And I don't really know, I haven't watched enough Minnesota the last three weeks to understand why that's happening. But um, it's just a lot of three, like he took 14 threes in a game, he took 15 threes in a game, 17 and 14. It's just a lot. You know, and then I look at the the free throws like in one game he had 28, they won by 19, he had 28 shots and 18 free throws. 25 shots and 15 free throws. It's just, it's a lot of ant. I don't, that's pretty easy to stop when you get to a playoff series. So I wish they had a lot, but I don't know if they have a lot of other choices.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  No, they've done a good job. Like, Terrence Shannon's been playing well, Clark, this other young players coming in, he's been good for him defensively. And um, yeah, like, I'm not disagreeing with any of that stuff. I just think there's certain dudes that maybe I defend because I like them, but I think I like and dislike players for very valid reasons. And for the high volume stuff with him, I think it just and the ball just ends up back in his hands.

• 1:00:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  And, you know, he's getting trapped, he's getting a ton of attention and it's up to you to figure all that stuff out. I mean, he had a play against Houston where he split the screen and it was. It was two defenders that came with him and he just split it in a way where I just couldn't believe believe like it was physically possible. And then he almost throws it down from there. And so because he's capable of doing some of that stuff, um, I don't know that he wants to take those shots. Like some other players, like again, that you just go through the list of guys I don't necessarily like. I think they're totally fine being like, cool.

• 1:00:35Bill Simmons?

  You did a good job on LaMelo and the LaMelo usage rate, shot rate stuff. You talked about that in your pod a couple of weeks ago.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Per 100, he's taken the most shots.

• 1:00:44Bill Simmons?

  2006 Kobe?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like we haven't seen somebody take that many shots per 100 possessions.

• 1:00:49Bill Simmons?

  That guy should be the all-star game. Shit.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Well, the other reason you got so many all-star votes is somebody pointed out to me after the fact and they're like, do you realize like if you, well, the voting was still open, but if you went to the voting tab, it was done by points per game. So he was like the first option when you went to the page to vote as a fan. So.

• 1:01:07Bill Simmons?

  Also, he's popular. If they have the top Instagram handles in the NBA, him and Lonzo will have two of the top five for most, most, most viewers. Like people, people like the balls. Um.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  They're gonna have plenty of lottery ones as well.

• 1:01:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, before I switch topics, that Minnesota Houston game when Dillon Brooks was talking shit to Ant and they got into it a couple of times. And then that game just got more and more competitive and heated and kept going and kept going is in the running for my favorite game of the season.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I love that game.

• 1:01:44Bill Simmons?

  I really, really enjoyed it.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  That was one of those deals where it's like, whatever I'm doing tonight, I'm watching Minnesota and Houston.

• 1:01:51Bill Simmons?

  I wonder, is Dillon Brooks, does he do that again? Or is he like, all right, here's somebody I shouldn't do that to again? Or does he double down on it the next time they play? And what happens in the playoff series?

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Are you serious?

• 1:02:01Bill Simmons?

  He's definitely gonna do that. You think he doubled down?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Do you remember him in that Lakers series? Where people thought his career was over?

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  This is different though. Ant, Ant, this is different though with Ant. I actually think he might double down because he, he might think Ant might punch him in a series and then he would take Ant out of the series, basically.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Well, he did it to LeBron in a way, but LeBron was just not going to fall for it. But

• 1:02:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, LeBron was way older and smarter.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Right. And then Brooks couldn't make a shot and then he didn't do a media availability and it was like, what?

• 1:02:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I didn't like that either.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Nobody liked it.

• 1:02:35Bill Simmons?

  Brooks is a better player now though than he was in that Laker series.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  It was an awful Lakers. Like people were going, get ready to learn China buddy type of stuff.

• 1:02:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  I mean, he was a China meme dude and then all of a sudden he gets a huge contract from Houston and to Houston's credit, like they desperately need him. And you know, what I liked about that game is this amend Thompson progression is like nightly, man. You have to watch him every night to see it. And you know, you and I were talking about him. We did that pod for the trade value thing. I was like, they're doing this at the worst possible time because you're going to lose your shit about Thompson. But I couldn't.

• 1:03:12Bill Simmons?

  I feel good about, I thought we were properly careful while also respecting the moment.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Where was he again?

• 1:03:19Bill Simmons?

  He was like 19.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  And I, I had said something and I remember I was pissed when we did it. I wasn't like mad. I wasn't like mad the next day type of mad, but I was like, you know, are you still going to run like pick and roll for him in a late possession? And you were like, well, they did on the game winner. And I was kind of like, I didn't want to get into it with you. I was like, there's four seconds left. They inbounded it to him and he uses athleticism and he hits the game winner against Boston. The stuff he was doing against Minnesota and even some stuff that I saw last night against Utah, like the drive and kick stuff that he's showing now. And there's a, you know, like granted, we know he can't shoot yet, which is the funniest thing about how much we all love watching him play is like, you know, the joke is he's not even good yet. And it's this much fun.

• 1:04:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  But he hit a shot because Utah just didn't respect him. He had a shot late last night where it was like, I'm catch and shoot three. Like I'm not even going to dick around with this. Like I'm getting this shot up. I'm going to make you try to come out here a little bit more. There's more and more ball handling with him where they trust him, where these, there could be this amend Thompson reward of these Van Vliet, these Van Vliet minutes is as like disrupted as they could be because clearly they need him to organize them on offense. Even though they have all these clutch wins, but all their clutch numbers stink, which is one of the weirdest stat profiles.

• 1:04:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, then nobody can create a good shot. That's why with Thompson, it's like, at least when he's driving to the basket. And he kinda doesn't know where he's going or what's gonna happen, but he always goes by whoever's guarding him.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  But he kinda does know that like there were these kickouts in that Minnesota game where it was a very clear like when he takes off, he's going, if I don't have this, I know where to kick it out. And it's also just awesome having Jabari back as, you know, the stretch option because, you know, it gives you some more flexibility with Shingun. Cause I'll admit, there's some,

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  as I can't say it, some Shingun nights where I'm like, what, what's up with him? Are you there at all with that?

• 1:05:21Bill Simmons?

  Just feels like he's, depending on the matchup, he's kinda one of those guys.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And Adams at this point is kinda, like, do you know how old Steven Adams is?

• 1:05:31Bill Simmons?

  Isn't he like 28? It's like some crazy number?

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's 31.

• 1:05:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:05:37Bill Simmons?

  But he's been in the league for 25 years?

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think he should be this bad. So having Jabari back is really important for them. So, look, I mean, none of this was.

• 1:05:47Bill Simmons?

  That's one of those where they could have probably flipped Steven Adams and one of the 90 picks they have to get, Capella or somebody who could actually play a little bit more for them. I had them on my list for subplots for the last 30 games. Cause they're three and eight in their last 11, 18th in net. They've dropped to 35 and 21 for the season. And they're a five seed right now, but like if I'm Golden State and I'm five losses back from them, with a bunch of time left, I feel like I can catch them. Cause I thought Houston was overachieving with some of the stuff that was happening to them the first two months. The league, their conference is getting better. Clippers are better. The Lakers are better. The Warriors are better. And I, I don't know if they're gonna stay in the top six. That would be my pick to drop out. What do you think?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  I was looking at some of that schedule stuff in the expanded schedule where if you look at games against teams 500 or more, which we've already gone through the record stuff. But Denver's played 26 games against teams with that and Houston's played 35. So scheduling wise, they've been a little unlucky, but then when you look at the remaining schedule stuff, I mean, it's the top three. Most difficult remaining schedules is Phoenix, Denver and LA. Houston's like down at 18. So it should, because of that number and the record I told you about, it should even out. Like, I can't wait to see what LA does. Yeah. Tari missed the game. So, you know, I'm not putting a ton into the Utah loss. I put way more into the Minnesota win.

• 1:07:12Bill Simmons?

  Cause that's one of the subplots that's left is who are the 10 teams going to be? And more importantly, who are the playing teams going to be? And then how can you avoid that eight spot where you have to play OKC in round one, which would just suck no matter who you are? You know, it does feel like Phoenix is going to drop out and we should talk to them. We talked about them. They're 27 and 29. They have three more wins than your Portland Trail Blazers, your favorite team. They're six and nine in their last 15, they're 19th in the net. I know you talked to Goldsberry about this on your pod on Friday, but I sat at that game with Goldsberry. And the Suns were absolutely alarming in person.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Give it to us. Give it to us.

• 1:07:51Bill Simmons?

  There's no other word than.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Body language, Bill.

• 1:07:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God. I mean, we were pretty close to the bench. So I could really watch it. It's, they weren't talking to each other.

• 1:08:01Bill Simmons?

  You know, you judge certain things like how many guys get up after a big play on the bench? What are guys doing during timeouts? What happens when a star player walks by his coach? Does he acknowledge him? Does he talk to him? Does he just kind of stop by? Does one of the star players yell at the coach? Well, KD yelled at Bud twice during that game. There was, near the end, the, the, one of my favorites is when one of the stars, there's somebody shooting free throws at the other end, and then one of the stars moves to the furthest part of the court away from everybody just to go sulk in the corner. That was KD near the end because he was so mad the way they used him in that game and the team played like crap.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  They were playing all the hits and it is not a team that seemed very happy. And I, I don't know. I actually, we were talking and it was like, I don't think Bud was trying to get fired. But it was the kind of coaching where you were like, if that guy's trying to get fired, I would point back to that game. Where it's like, you're just leaving Grayson Allen out there for the entire crush. Try and get killed by Darren Fox. It was, it was weird. It was a team that was not on the same page in any respect and, and seemed unhappy. That was my takeaway leaving for two and a half hours, an unhappy team.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not Bud's fault that people can't come over to help on cuts and Durant had a bunch of those swiping late, out of position. And if you don't believe me, I think Van Gundy was on the broadcast of that one, too, being like, what?

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  It's tough.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  What are you doing? And Durant puts up these numbers, but I mean, there's some stuff here. And look, the worst thing Durant did was tweet that the NHL has loyalty and doesn't trade his players, which is still one of the dumbest tweets I've ever seen.

• 1:09:41Bill Simmons?

  Did he do that? When was that?

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was during the whole stretch where it's like, why don't you watch something else? And you're like, all right, dude.

• 1:09:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, not great.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  You know, when you look at their, their whole thing here, you know, I don't know, like rebound is usually a number where you see like rebounding decline. It kind of speaks to effort and all that kind of stuff. I mean, he's, he's under five rebounds a game in February. The crazy thing is like, some of the other numbers are nuts because the guy can't miss a shot right now. The shooting splits are incredible. Free throw attempts are down the last couple of months. So, you know, I don't, I don't know if this is, hey, this is part of this little decline here with him, but like he still gets his numbers because the guy is so brilliant offensively. But like, you know, it's kind of up to you, man. It's, it's kind of up to you to be a part of the solution here. And they've tried some different things and they're just not very good, even when they're winning games.

• 1:10:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what they unfortunately tried to do was they tried to trade him and didn't tell him. And I think that was the death knell. Cause you know, the way the NBA works.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  I don't think he's wanted to be there, man. Going back to last summer.

• 1:10:49Bill Simmons?

  You, you think though, this whole season, you don't think you want to be there?

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  No, I don't think, I think there was pretty strong indications that if he could have gotten his preference to go somewhere else this summer, he would have done it.

• 1:11:00Bill Simmons?

  Interesting.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  You don't think so? You didn't hear any?

• 1:11:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Well, I, I never know what to believe with Durant stuff, but I'd, I'd always heard that he likes Phoenix. But I think it was a pretty unusual move by them to shop him around quietly with the don't tell anyone in a league where somebody's immediately going to tell somebody. And that's how they found out. I just thought that was the kind of thing you do when you're trying to burn the relationship. Well, Luca never found out.

• 1:11:28Bill Simmons?

  I listen, I test wise, I've been watching Durant his whole career. He's at a slightly different point of his career physically. You can see it. He that he's as amazing as he is, and we've never seen a guy with that kind of size and shooting and athleticism. He's a little bit creakier than he used to be. You can see it when you watch it and it makes sense because he's been in the league since 2007. Like this is, this is how it goes.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I just, I don't really enjoy them. Like I, I looked at it last year. Remember we kept waiting. Hey, I don't care about any of the stats and the fourth quarter stuff didn't make any sense. It was so bad, it had to be an anomaly and that part of it's been fixed a little bit. But even with last year's injuries and guys missing games, they were 38 and 28 through 56. They're 27 and 29 now after an eight and one start. They're bottom third in offense and defense the last month. KD's only missed 13, Booker's only missed three. The Beal bench thing, it doesn't matter because I don't think that dude cares at all. You know, I really, I just don't. So they're just, you know, they needed those three guys to be just top level.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Not to sound like a soccer analyst and they've rarely gotten that.

• 1:12:45Bill Simmons?

  The Beal thing was interesting to watch in person because he was in a funk to start the game. It wasn't really trying hard.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  And then there was a moment where you could almost see him be like, oh shit, this is on TV. And there's fans and then he started trying harder.

• 1:13:02Bill Simmons?

  But you know, it's an unhappy team. I, I will promise you that that team does not make the playoffs. There's no solution for whatever is wrong with them. And I don't, you know, it's, it's probably the all time new owner syndrome example we're going to have. Other than Prokhorov, which I think is number one.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Although Dallas in the running.

• 1:13:23Bill Simmons?

  Fair, fair. I still think.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable. Like I've done this assignment. If you go through every ownership transition, the new owners fuck up so bad within the first 12 to 18 months. Like even Cuban, when he brought it in, and I never forget him being on with Dan Patrick, talking about acquiring Rafe LaFrance. And I remember thinking like, what the hell is he doing? And then Cuban's just so good after 10 minutes of Dan Patrick, I was like, oh, I guess getting Rafe LaFrance is a good idea.

• 1:13:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about it. If we bought, if we bought the Pelicans, would we just keep the roster intact for a year? Or would we just be going out to dinner every night, trying to figure out what our first trade was gonna be? I feel like that would be the latter.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  I would be so determined, if I owned a team, to not screw up in the first 18 months. I would just be like, say no to everything.

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  So I think Prokhorov was worse than the Luka trade, and here's why. Because the Luka trade, as ridiculous and absurd as it was, and it's gonna go down as one of the worst trades in the history of the league, and maybe in the history of sports. So putting that aside, at least there was a strategy in place that I genuinely think they believed. The strategy was insane. It makes no sense. It made no sense when it happened. It's indefensible. But they had a plan and a strategy. Prokhorov, his plan was, let's spend as much money as possible and do whatever it takes. I don't care about picks. Let's keep going, going, going, going. And then it didn't work for a year, and he was like, I'm out. No more money. I'm not spending anything.

• 1:15:06Bill Simmons?

  And he just zagged the other way, but now they had no more picks left? I just don't feel like anyone's ever gonna top that. Two strategies, that one was worse than the other, and in the span of two years. And he just demolished basketball in Brooklyn for no reason.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Well, the fact that he changed course so quickly after he'd already started, like, you know, it's like digging a hole for a house and going, you know what? It should be over here now.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  You can't, I mean, even then, eventually you'd have a house at the end of it, so.

• 1:15:38Bill Simmons?

  It's like digging a hole for a street. It wasn't even one house. It was like nine houses.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Which way do you want these highways going? North, south?

• 1:15:45Bill Simmons?

  Wait, I didn't realize the sun came that way. I'm out. Let's not do this. Just sell the lots.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, but the problem is, there's no single piece that's as damp. I mean, I guess you could get into the Tatum and the draft picks and all that kinda stuff. But they weren't, like, Tatum wasn't playing for that franchise and having everybody fall in love with him over the course of seven years. The way, like, the reaction, like, I saw a quote the other day on the Luka trade where somebody had said, we had underestimated the reaction to this.

• 1:16:16Bill Simmons?

  Multiple people said that.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  What did you think was gonna happen?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  And it just sucks even worse because AD gets hurt immediately. But the other thing that I love too about this, and I'm going to make this joke throughout the rest of my career, is this stupid fucking timeline people do and talk about and how married they are to the age timeline of NBA rosters. Like, we need somebody on this timeline. It's like, so if Cooper Flag, if you had like the number one pick, would he be too young to put with Kyrie and AD now? Like, he's not on our timeline. Yeah, right. Like, as if every rebuilding team, everybody has to be between 18 and 22. And then any team that's like going for championships, like this guy's 25 and good? What the fuck are you guys doing? It's way too much of a gap with the rest of our timeline and all this stuff, so.

• 1:17:04Bill Simmons?

  Also, the iconic part of the reason you're getting rid of Luca because he's not a safe enough risk physically and his devotion to the game. And then you trade for Davis who gets hurt an hour into his first game. Like you.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Or when I thought you nailed it when you were tweeting out about that really good feature with the owner who's, what is he, the son-in-law?

• 1:17:28Bill Simmons?

  Married into the family.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Patrick, is it Dumont?

• 1:17:30Bill Simmons?

  This is your dream. This is what I want to happen to you. You marry into the rich family that's thinking about getting into professional basketball. This is, this is it. This is the path.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  No, I like, I go on Instagram and constantly like single daughters of NFL ownership, their pictures. I'm like, oh, killing it. You know, nothing creepy, just really tasteful stuff. Be like, oh, it's such a great sweater, you know? But.

• 1:17:55Bill Simmons?

  That party looks awesome.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, oh my God. You guys, that's so great that you guys reach out to the community like that. Keep, keep doing you. Uh, he, he went through all of these players, like clearly like Nico had gotten to Patrick. It was like basically to be on brand here. The messaging should be like, we here at the Dallas Mavericks want people that are fully committed. And clearly like, look, it's no secret on the Luca thing. He wasn't committed enough. I'm not going to make the argument that he was and was misunderstood. But you can't then run through all the list of players and be like, you know, Kobe and Shaq.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  When Shaq himself would admit that I could have done a better job. And that was the whole reason of the Kobe Shaq divorce is that Kobe, you know, Phil's line to him being like, your 10 is unattainable for everybody else. Your 10 is their seven and they don't understand that there's a higher number. That's your gift. That's what makes you you. So, holding everybody else to that standard is completely pointless. All you're going to be doing is wasting your time. So, getting on Shaq's case because he's not going to approach the offseason the way you are. That's unsolvable, man. And so, when he went through the list of players that he admired because of their work ethic and their conditioning and all that stuff. And as much as we all love Shaq, he'd be the first to admit that he didn't take it serious enough while he played. So, it was an awful quote.

• 1:19:15Bill Simmons?

  He wouldn't have been in my top 700 to list for that.

• 1:19:20Bill Simmons?

  I remember when John Walsh sat me down and told me that my 10 was everyone else's 7. What did you say? Thanks, John. Thanks for just to relax on everybody on Green.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Did he? Did he say that to you?

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  What did he say to you? What's the most meaningful thing that he ever said to you?

• 1:19:39Bill Simmons?

  Most meaningful thing John Walsh ever said to me?

• 1:19:44Bill Simmons?

  To care about the relationships with the people you have professionally. Because those are things going to last after you do whatever you're doing professionally. Which I think took me a long time to realize.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't realize that until recently. And he didn't say, he recommended Game Change, the book, which I did enjoy that summer.

• 1:20:04Bill Simmons?

  It's a good one.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  It's a good book.

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  More storylines for you. I almost don't want to get to Philly. I feel like Philly is like, like the, the, the.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  Let me ask you then, let me ask, let me ask you a Philly question off of what we just did.

• 1:20:19Bill Simmons?

  No, but I'm saying I want to almost save Philly. Philly is like the fucking huge dessert we have coming out. That's got like the table where the guy is going to do like a baked Alaska. Like, that's how much excited I have to talk about Philly.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Does anyone actually make a bake? I've never even seen one. It's referenced, it's the most referenced food item that I don't even think exists. Never seen it on a menu. I've never seen the presentation. I've never seen anybody order one. I think it's fake.

• 1:20:45Bill Simmons?

  I think I've had it like once in my life. Philly's 20 and 36. They have the sixth worst record in the league. They've lost seven straight and they owe a top six picks to OKC and now they're in the zone where it's like, should we just fucking, should we tank it? What do we do? And it's funny, I wrote down, could this hit mid 2010 Brooklyn proportions for them? Where I was thinking of like the, the single bleakest situations we've seen in the NBA. And I think the, the bleakest they can get, and I've certainly rooted for Celtics teams that had pieces of it, like that when the Vin Baker trade, when it was, became clear that there was no way of getting out of his contract. And you just start looking ahead and you're like, wow, this is, so we're going

• 1:21:27Bill Simmons?

  to have this for three more years. And we're just fucked. And you, that slow realization comes in. And I think it's hitting some of the Sixers fans with the, with the George Embiid money. So you have that on top of, you might give the seventh pick in the draft to OKC. You might not even get a draft pick out of this season. If you can't land the plane on this lottery, what would you do?

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  I would tank.

• 1:21:52Bill Simmons?

  So you're shutting everybody down?

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's no point. Why, why is this Embiid thing going to look better this year?

• 1:22:01Bill Simmons?

  It's not. It's not going to look better tomorrow.

• 1:22:06Bill Simmons?

  And then Paul George, he's like, yeah, my finger, I'm taking shots. It's like, well, why can't you move?

• 1:22:14Bill Simmons?

  Why do you seem slow half the time? But are there other injuries you have that you're not telling us about?

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  If I were a CEO of a company and I wanted to short my own stock, but I couldn't just say it outright, I would hire Paul George to run PR.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  What are they doing over there?

• 1:22:35Bill Simmons?

  We, do we feel like we went strongly enough on us being concerned from the moment they did that contract to the start of the season? Because I feel like we, both of us danced around, including in combos with each other, recorded, where I was trying to be diplomatic, but deep down in my soul, I just felt like this was a bad fit. And it's been way worse than I thought.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  See, the problem with it was is that on one hand, you have Daryl pulling a rabbit out of his hat in a way that very few GMs can, you know, whether it's having a top five player in the world when he's healthy and Embiid, because that's what he was. I mean, but you know, even if you don't like him now, and I don't like him now. You have a guy who's going to make multiple All-Star teams, most likely in Maxey. You hit, what, 21st pick? And then all these other little things and you delay the Maxey extension. You figure out a way to move Harden out because you knew after that playoff series, it's like, I don't really want to extend this guy to whatever was talked about and how many different versions of that story you've heard. And then you have this cap space that almost never

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  works out for anybody. And then you have this rare instance where the, you know, in this case, the Clippers, the incumbent team, right? Decide they're okay losing the asset for nothing and not giving this player who's all NBA level a fourth year, right? Like, everybody just gives him the fourth year. Like, why are you not giving him the fourth year? So you have this one team that's deciding to not give the fourth year. And it's not like they weren't going to pay him a ton of money in the three years, but they're not going to give him the fourth year. Like, who cares? Just do the fourth year. You're figuring it out later. It's better than just letting him walk. And they let him walk. So now you can use this cap space on a guy who in theory is all NBA,

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  even if we would say that he feels like with all of his talent, like at the end of it, Paul George is probably going to be kind of a disappointing player for his, for his career. And now he's even worse. Like, when they've needed him, when other guys have been out and you've needed him to be this alpha, he's just incapable of it. And then on top, so like, it's all of this credit on top of, to your point, like, is George, personality-wise, the guy that fits into Philadelphia, knowing what the standard is and knowing what the expectations are? And it's been, is it more disappointing than

• 1:24:53Bill Simmons?

  Well,

• 1:24:56Bill Simmons?

  I'm personally more disappointed because we had Phoenix in that big super boost, which I haven't lost all decade. So that was kind of like, like all of us were aligned on, we think Phoenix is going to be really good. I can't wait to watch this offense. And they've all been healthy, which is the weird part. So

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  I mean, Beal's missed time, but for the most part.

• 1:25:15Bill Simmons?

  I can't say I'm, I can't say I'm surprised that Embiid broke down and that Paul George looks a little long in the tooth. What's surprising to me is how miserable everybody seems.

• 1:25:27Bill Simmons?

  And the fact that there's no outs, like to go 20 and 36 is really hard. Right? That's, that's a bad record. You're, now you're on pace for, what's that like 27 and 55? Like you're just, there's a reason they're in the standings. Can I push back on one Paul George thing now?

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:25:49Bill Simmons?

  Cause you said ultimately you're going to remember him as like, kind of disappointing. I think he's exactly, it was exactly the best version of whatever career we ever would have thought it was going to be.

• 1:26:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't like, he made conference finals a couple of times. He had that one nice playoff series with the Clippers after Kawhi left. He also had a couple where he wasn't that great. I still, like, I would still take him over Vince Carter and Carmelo and people like that from a success standpoint.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  You take him over Mello?

• 1:26:19Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't take him as, as a player from like, I have Mello ranked in the top 75, but I'm just saying like his achievements. I think he's achieved more than Carmelo did as a player. Like he made it further in the playoffs twice. Or three times. He was in the conference finals three times and he was second team All-NBA.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  If Mello had been in the East, I, I think he probably, like, if you go through all the Mello playoff stuff, for the most part, every time he lost to a team, it was a team they were supposed to lose to.

• 1:26:48Bill Simmons?

  I've heard that argument, but it doesn't explain 09 when I felt like they pretty easily could have beaten the Lakers. And I don't feel like he had a good enough series personally.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  That's fine.

• 1:26:57Bill Simmons?

  In that series.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  But, um, all right. Then you got me on the one.

• 1:27:01Bill Simmons?

  2019, first team on bay. I don't know. I think you said, if you're going to compare him versus Carmelo, and I was a Carmelo defender forever. But I also feel like now Carmelo has become a little overrated in retirement, which I think happens depending on if you have a podcast after you retire it or not.

• 1:27:19Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. We were there for the Carmelo thing. He was an incredible scorer. But the Denver years, pretty much all the way through until 2009 were disappointing. Right? Then pushing his way to the Knicks and making them basically trade all these assets that actually could help him if he stayed. I think that he gets dinged on that.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's not, there's nothing. He doesn't even have a moment. You know, that used to be my Vince Carter argument was like, where's the playoff moment? Because for the longest time, and I know you'll be right down the middle on this one, like people were actually trying to argue like Paul Pierce against Vince Carter before the 08 title. And you would just go, come on, you know, this is, there's a, there's a level to like, you've got to have some kind of playoff moment. And for Vince, for the longest time, like he didn't have anything. I mean, it might've taken all the way until like, he hit a corner three for Dallas. So maybe it's just because Paul George at one point was in this conversation of like, could this guy be the best player in the league? And, you know, I guess you could do the same thing with Mello, because early on, that's kind of how you looked at Mello. And then the playoff part of it, I can't sit here and defend it because it's

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  generally really disappointing. But I think for George and some of those Pacers years, you were like, is this guy? And then it took forever for him to have like a playoff series you felt like you could trust him. And that, that was like hard nes, you know, for him. It was like, what is going on? And then they had, they had lost Kawhi. They had that Utah series where Utah, I think, had that really good record in that two-year window. They ended up beating them. You know, they kind of got Gobert stuck in the spot where he was trying to defend everybody. So he was really, really good. It was like, okay, well, that's like, finally, like, there's something there to kind of point to there a little bit. But he just needs to be, I mean, we're back to the beginning of this whole thing. He is incredibly disappointing. Like, he's so bad right now that I can't even believe he's doing podcasts.

• 1:29:08Bill Simmons?

  You tell him to take a break?

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  I would just be so embarrassed.

• 1:29:12Bill Simmons?

  Paul's gonna be taking a month off?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Obviously, that's not going to happen, but I would be embarrassed. Being a dude who comes in with the four-year max and like, hey, we need you to be the guy throughout all this Embiid stuff, you know, and, and Maxey's numbers aren't as good because I think Maxey was pressing and trying to go like, all right, I guess I'm gonna take 25 shots and I have to raise the risk of like what some of my shots are here. I mean, what, is there any part of this that you would disagree with? Because I'm, even if he's older and all this different stuff, like, man, year one, this is what it looks like? It's just so frustrating.

• 1:29:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, what would scare me for a Philly fan is we've seen this with other players that

• 1:29:52Bill Simmons?

  all of a sudden were at a different level and you knew it right away. Like I always remember Jermaine O'Neal. Jermaine O'Neal had those two years through, he's getting traded around and people are still acting like he was 24 and 10. Jermaine O'Neal just wasn't anymore. Usually when the stats drop this dramatically, they don't come back. That's, that's what we've learned. You can go on Basketball Reference, you can look at any of these guys. There's some sort of level, especially if it's second half of your career. When your stats go from like here to here and that's just who you become. And we think it's coming back and it just never does.

• 1:30:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm still gonna defend Paul George's 2018. I feel like that was a really good year to start to finish. Even like that Phoenix series, like he was kind of carrying them. It was like he'd, he'd kind of reached his, the 2019 OKC year was good. And then that, uh, Clippers run.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 1:30:44Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what it was for Carmelo. What is it?

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  He was third.

• 1:30:47Bill Simmons?

  2013 next season.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:49Bill Simmons?

  Right, the regular season.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know what, dude? I, I'm sorry, I actually gonna re-pushback on your pushback. Because-

• 1:30:57Bill Simmons?

  It's a double pushback?

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Because if you look at the Thunder during those post Durant seasons, okay? Like, they're getting blasted out in the first round. They lost to Portland in five games the year he was third in MVP voting. You know, and he has one of those horrible, horrible game sevens where you don't even notice that he's out there. And like, look, we joke, we've made this joke before, you know, it's a really simple test. Like, do I forget you're out on the court? Paul George should never be somebody with his skills, with that contract, with Philly's injuries this year, where you forget that he's on the court in the fourth quarter, and it happens all the time.

• 1:31:34Bill Simmons?

  It would be a fun podcast just to discuss Paul George's career for two hours. There's been a lot of ups and downs because the bubble was really bad. The year after was really great. You could go over the map of it. Um, couple more storylines quickly.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  Let me just finish this Clippers point, though.

• 1:31:49Bill Simmons?

  Oh, please do.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Because, you know, their defensive profile is incredible. Lawrence Frank in this front office, they deserve all the credit in the world for doing something that I just don't think a lot of teams would have done. Most teams would have given Paul George the fourth year. And to your point, like, maybe that tells you something if they were so adamant of not doing it. But then again, it's like, well, it wasn't like he was going to play for free on the other three years. But I just laugh when I think about the Clippers transactions this year because it's almost like, hey, who are all the players or Silla doesn't like? Let's bring him in. Uh, the hardened one they need. They need his usage, the highest usage that we've seen from him in five years. But it's not just that. I mean, they have brought in Kevin Porter Jr., who they moved on from, who, you know, you want to talk about playing your own game when you're out there on top of all the other shit you

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  can get into with him. Um, Bones, who couldn't make it work with Jokic. Like, if there's, hey, man, all you had to do was cut. All you had to do was cut, and you would have got the second contract that would have worked out. Um,

• 1:32:45Bill Simmons?

  And a ring.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Mo Bamba, who is going to just forever trick teams. They brought in Kai Jones. Okay? And then they were like, while we're at it, let's add Ben Simmons. This is an absolute anti-Russillo heater of roster movement. And they're, and they're pretty good.

• 1:33:04Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like the Ben Simmons move.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Oh, do you?

• 1:33:08Bill Simmons?

  I didn't mind it. They paid nothing for him. He costs like five bucks.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  I tell you, that guy is like, all right, this Brooklyn thing's over. And then, you know, I just love that it was actually like a story. Be like, ooh, we're on Ben Simmons buyout watch. And it's like, of course, he gets to go to LA. Of course he does. Good for him.

• 1:33:25Bill Simmons?

  It's a nice team for him. Hey Ben, just play some defense and bring the ball up for us. Can you do that? Occasionally do the thing where you drive really hard and then kick it back out to somebody? That's all we need from you. Grab some rebounds.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  And if you want to make, if you want to make all your offseason videos, make them.

• 1:33:41Bill Simmons?

  I, if I'm paying Ben Simmons the minimum, I'm okay with it. If I'm paying $43 million a year for him, not as okay. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minneh Sharon and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9. Only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. Some quick storylines, quickly. Is John Moran ever going to be John Moran again?

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Awesome question. Awesome question.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's still young enough, but I've been worried this year. You?

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  Thirty-four games, he's missed 22. He's averaging 20 a game, 30% from three, free throw attempts down to 5.9. They're 23-11 with him, 14-8 without him. And there's moments and flashes, but I was kind of expecting more from this season. We'll see. Maybe this, this is why maybe Memphis could be the late bloomer, even though they have a good record. Could he just go on a heater the next 20 games and look like Ja again? But it's, it's not the guy from three years ago. I'll tell you that much, at least not yet.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  No, it isn't. And I, I do wonder if it's kind of like the,

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  the disruptive pattern for him, like, hey, he's back, he's not back, but I know they'll rest him sometimes in there as well. It just, it feels like a 25, like I'm not there yet, but watching.

• 1:36:19Bill Simmons?

  I'd like to, yeah, be good for four weeks in a row.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  With you. Yeah.

• 1:36:24Bill Simmons?

  Put up like a 28 and 10 for a month. So I'm watching that and it's hard to take Memphis seriously, not knowing what we're getting from that dude. Even though I love, like Jaren Jackson, I think has been one of the big winners of the season.

• 1:36:38Bill Simmons?

  I thought he went up a level. It's noticeable. He's gonna, he's an all NBA guy for me right now.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  Ja was really going against Orlando because Orlando never changed his defense the entire time. So that was good.

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland versus OKC for home court, 46 and 10 versus 45 and 10, taping it before both of their games today. But I think that's the storyline at some point because one of those teams could get a game seven. And those are the only two teams left. Same thing for MVP where it's SGA versus your good shot, although it seems like SGA is

• 1:37:08Bill Simmons?

  kind of got it locked up. He's minus 500. It would take a lot at, at this point. Next one, this is specifically for you. Can the Pistons, how frisky can we get? How much friskiness should I be prepared for? Do I need to put on a frisky jacket to, to combat their, their friskiness? Right now.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  Are you, are you suggesting a seasonal friskiness update ranking?

• 1:37:35Bill Simmons?

  What do you think their record is in their last 28 games?

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  Last 28, um, I'll say 18 and 10.

• 1:37:42Bill Simmons?

  19 and 9. Last 20 games, they're 7th in net. Cade Cunningham, your guy, you never gave up on him. You own the most amount of stock. You were just buying other people's stock when they were down. And he's averaging 25 and 9 and has, if we kept track of who was the best player in that game as an award, I feel like he would have about 25 of them? 20 of them? 19 of them? 22? Somewhere in there. But he's been awesome and they can rebound and they're tough. That's what I like. They're tough. It's a tough, like, kind of, it's a veteran team and with some wild cards, beef stews out there. There's some elbows.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Did you see that Dern dunk the other night?

• 1:38:24Bill Simmons?

  What was it?

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  Just, he almost got like horizontal to the ground, like at rim level. I don't know what was going on. Cause I was watching, I forget which show I watched, again, sports consultants available per DM.

• 1:38:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  I guess we should say pro rata. But there was a show the other day I was watching where they were showing like something from track and field, like there was a track and field meet and they were showing the high jumper and he was like jumping over the thing where he would, like, there was no Fosbury flop. He just jumped over it.

• 1:39:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God, really?

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there was no one apparently on the set that would have been like, hey, you realize no one would ever do a high jump this way.

• 1:39:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  And they didn't do it. And if you'd had Dern out there, he'd be like, this is how you do it. Cause it looked like he was trying to high jump the rim when he hit this dunk. I'm so happy, I think scholars will look back at the Zach Cram, Cade Cunningham tablets as the turning point of his career. Cause Zach did a piece that was like lit him up. Like, hey, this is who this dude is. An incredibly high volume inefficient dude who may not have like one go to thing that's all that great. And it feels like from that point on, he became the player we all thought he could be. So I think the tablets will be a turning point on his.

• 1:39:40Bill Simmons?

  Interesting. Maybe he'll get invited to the Hall of Fame. The, when Cade goes. I actually was, I've been sketching out all NBA every week just for as an exercise.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Good for you. Getting those reps in when no one's looking.

• 1:39:54Bill Simmons?

  Just part of the pod process. I have Cade. I think, I think there's a real case for him for second team all NBA right now.

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  Who are your four guards?

• 1:40:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, you figure Mitchell.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  Like SGA Mitchell are first team and Brunson's going to be second team. And if you're gonna, if you're gonna go at least a little traditional and say, I want to put a guard as my fourth, you know, but basically the fourth guard and second team NBA, it's between him and Edwards. And I think that's really it.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  What about Kyrie?

• 1:40:30Bill Simmons?

  Kyrie's in there and Curry's in there. If you're, if you're betting on the Curry bump. I had Kyrie and Curry and Edwards all 13, but I mean, it's all like, I didn't really, I spent five minutes on it, but I was just, I was like, hmm, I wonder where Cade is. And Cade to me, with what he's done with Detroit, they lose Ivy and they somehow keep going and how hard he plays every night, I, I'd have trouble leaving him off second team right now. It's him or Edwards. And you can talk me into Edwards because of the defense and, but you know, they have the same, teams have the same record and you could say Edwards has more talent. So at least it's a good argument. So anyway.

• 1:41:09Bill Simmons?

  Cade would have on there. So the reason I wanted to mention them though is because I, I think they're going to be kind of a bitch in the playoffs. Just for one round. I don't, I don't necessarily think they're going to beat the Knicks. I just think they're going to be really physical, super excited to be there. And they have a really good guy at the end of these games who's not afraid of whoever the best guy on the other team is. And it's an unusual six seed for a conference that I think is pretty awful. Once you get past the first four.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  It's amazing what shooting can do when you have, uh, like a, a guy's going to have the ball in his hands as much as Cade. You know, because I've watched an Orlando game recently and we all love Palo. I think that established. And whenever I watch him, I just think of like, there's just not enough spacing because Suggs is out.

• 1:42:00Bill Simmons?

  Right. This is too hard.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  It's like, if there was ever a team that would love a prime stretch five per Zingas to balance out all the other stuff the guys could do and. It's not like they had this massive overhaul this offseason because all the young assets essentially are still there. Although Killian, how about his possessions in passing the other night? Was was K O C. Wrong or just early? Some are asking.

• 1:42:25Bill Simmons?

  He's still he never gave up a stock. He's still hold on.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  Killian back in the league. Just the simplicity of a little bit more spacing. You know, it's what every team, maybe there's just not enough shooting to go around, but every team should aspire to do that because it's just different. Your job is different now as his primary ball handler when there's just some people that you have to worry about. And look, last night's Denver game is a perfect example. The Lakers did not worry about any of those other guys all night.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. So, couple more subplots and then we'll go. I mentioned the all NBA battles. What's weird is the top five seem like they're locked in unless a Mitchell Brunson development can happen, but I don't know how Mitchell's if Cleveland's gonna have the best record in the East and maybe the best record in the league, he's probably gonna be first team. Anyway, worst Rookie of the Year race in a while.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Tough.

• 1:43:13Bill Simmons?

  Castles, Castles minus 175 on Fanduel. It doesn't even start. I went to the game Thursday. I didn't start. 10th playoff spot, Russian roulette in the East.

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  Orlando seven, Miami eight, a game and a half back. Atlanta nine at 26 and 30. And then you have three teams that legitimately don't want to even make the playing game. Chicago at 10, 22 and 34, Philly 20 and 36 now and then, or 35 and then Brooklyn 20 and 35. Chicago, Philly and Brooklyn, I don't think want to be in the playoffs. Maybe Philly is just gonna have to stumble into it.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  You realize though, this top like they're, they have the sixth worst record right now. Imagine if they tank and they end up with the seventh pick and it goes to OKC.

• 1:43:59Bill Simmons?

  Which is almost what happened at Dallas that year. And then Dallas ended up keeping the pick and getting lively. Remember they were right on the edge?

• 1:44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And everybody lost their minds because they didn't want to be a 10 seed when it was like actually smart.

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  It was one of them. Right here.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm looking right at you. I was talking about you.

• 1:44:14Bill Simmons?

  Right here. Right here.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Who gives a shit? Are you still bothered? Did you ever drive around? You're going down Sunset? You're like, I'll tell you what, though. Fucking Mavs a couple of years ago. Have you done it zero?

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  I still stand by my foundation. You know what? I look back at my playbook and the thought process was you have Luka Doncic. You always have a chance if that guy's in your team. The next year they made the finals. Was I wrong?

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  I think the criticism was outsized for what they actually were doing.

• 1:44:41Bill Simmons?

  I have no idea who's going to be the 10th seed and what'll be funny is if it ends up being Chicago, which I think would be the team I would bet on out of those three. Chicago, a team that openly tried to sabotage their own team at the trade deadline and still might make the playoffs. So you have that, then you have Tampa Palooza, the Cooper flag stuff's heating up. Washington has a four, four win lead over everyone else. So they have nine wins. New Orleans, Utah, Charlotte, Toronto, Philly is our, our top six. And Utah's hilarious because every once in a while they look really good. Like I watched some of the, some of the Houston game and Houston was really trying to win and Utah's like, no, we're going to do this.

• 1:45:21Bill Simmons?

  And, and watch this and then we'll do this and they just look really competent from time to time. And I don't know how they're going to fuck up, but they seem pretty happy where they are.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Or then they'll run a play where Keonte George in that Lakers game that I was at. I almost tweeted it out. Like, will you remember where you were when they came out of a timeout? And Keonte George threw up a left-handed floater in the lane. I think it was actually a left-handed jumper and maybe it wasn't out of a timeout. There was another play out of a timeout where I think they turned the ball over immediately. They have a lot of on-ball guys with confidence. I will say that about the Utah Jazz. But who do you want to have win? If you could go right now, win.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Cause I mean, if you think Scoot and Cooper flag the next 10 years over under three and a half titles.

• 1:46:08Bill Simmons?

  Trying to think, how many did the mid eighties Lakers win? They won five?

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Nine finals in 12 years.

• 1:46:19Bill Simmons?

  Listen, if this season, if any great thing happened through 50 games, other than Dallas making the dumbest trade I've ever seen. We might be alive with Scoot. We haven't talked about this on a pod. We might be alive.

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  We might be, there's, it's still breathing.

• 1:46:37Bill Simmons?

  There's enough there and he's young enough that I feel okay. This isn't like where I was mentally, you know, a month and a half ago with this where it felt like a sunk cost. Now I'm, you know, he's gotten better.

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  He's getting so big.

• 1:46:55Bill Simmons?

  Last thing, and Dallas got killed as we were taking this Golden State, but they're not getting their bigs back until the first week of March.

• 1:47:05Bill Simmons?

  What do you, where do you have them in your head? Cause that's another subplot for the last 30 games.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  I'll probably like them better than the Clippers.

• 1:47:15Bill Simmons?

  When they have everybody?

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I might even like them better than Houston. Here's the thing, I liked them, I liked the healthy them. I thought they were better this year. Before all this trade stuff, like they were always a team that I had to say, don't, don't lose sight of them with all of this Luca stuff. Like I think Denver paid this weird Aaron Gordon price where people were looking at what they were doing or what they weren't doing. And you go, I don't really care. Like if Aaron Gordon's going to miss this many games, he's so important to what they do. Let's see what they look like when they get him back. And clearly Luca's even beyond that and AD's even beyond that for Aaron Gordon on that part of it. So I, I think you still have to keep it open for them, even though, I mean, imagine having three centers like this that you would feel so good about and none of them are playing.

• 1:48:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, the good news for them.

• 1:48:03Bill Simmons?

  It looks like they're going to keep the 10 seed no matter what happens unless Phoenix gets their shit together, which I don't think will happen. And I didn't make Wemby a subplot because we already know how that's going to play out. It's such a bummer. I thought San Antonio was kind of lurking as a party crasher for maybe a nine or a 10 seed, but now that one shot and they're going to sink back. And the Wemby thing is a bummer. We don't, there's really not a lot to say about that one.

• 1:48:32Bill Simmons?

  So if I had to bet, so Sacramento you would have as a 10 seed, 30 games left. Is there anything you've seen from Sacramento that got you excited since all the trades?

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think it's gonna be, you think it's gonna be San Antonio, the 10?

• 1:48:49Bill Simmons?

  No, I think San Antonio is out. I have Phoenix and San Antonio out and I have Sacramento as, as the 10. I think that's how that plays out. And maybe Dallas passes them, becomes the 10 and Sacramento's not, but I think that's something, it looks something like that.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  I think it's Sacramento. I mean, at least with Sacramento, I kind of know what I'm getting.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  You know, I know.

• 1:49:09Bill Simmons?

  Good to see Sabonis and Valen Shinis back for you.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  I've loved it.

• 1:49:14Bill Simmons?

  Sad to see those guys. I know you watch a lot of Lithuanian Olympic tape. Um, all right. Any other subplots before we go that you care about?

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  No, I care about you sending me a deep dive thing that you've been just YouTubeing it out like a high school kid with no friends.

• 1:49:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, and did that really quick?

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  I do, because I have one for you, because you gave me the assignment. Mine will be quick, but I know you really want to do this, so go for it.

• 1:49:35Bill Simmons?

  No, I asked you, I said, we should talk at, at the end of the pod or near the end of the pod every Sunday about one rabbit hole we fell into over the course of the week, because I think we both fall into rabbit holes, either a book rabbit hole or um, some sort of YouTube or somebody sends you a video and you're like, what's that? And then you're watching seven of them. Um, I do want to talk about this Lorne Michaels book I was reading, but we don't have to do that today. So somebody sent me a Reddit thread about the Silver Springs performance by Fleetwood Mac in 1997 in the dance. I don't know if you're familiar with this?

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  I'm not. I mean, I'm, you know, look, who doesn't love a little Fleetwood Mac in the background, but go for it.

• 1:50:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, so this is why, this is why the deep dive's so much fun. Um,

• 1:50:27Bill Simmons?

  so Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham, they're together as a band in the early seventies and then they end up joining Fleetwood Mac, right? Both of them together and they're dating and they're in a hot relationship and they write the first album they're together, Rumors, the most famous album they made.

• 1:50:45Bill Simmons?

  They broke up as they're making that album. And then a couple of other people in the band broke up too. Basically, everybody in the band's breaking up with some of their dating in the band and that's what the album becomes. So they cut out Silver Springs, which is this song she wrote about Lindsey Buckingham.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  And they cut it out of rumors. It's a great song. They put it on the B side and said, and it becomes, well, you know, one of the biggest albums ever, but Silver Springs is the B side. And she's mad about it forever because it's one of her best songs. So when they do the dance, now they've broken up, Lindsay's with somebody and they go on stage and they do this and they rehearse it and she's playing it the same. But then when they do it for the actual concert film and the album, she, she really gets into it and starts like kind of staring him, giving some side eye stares as she's doing it, all performative. I think I've seen this. It's one of the best clips on YouTube is Stevie Nicks.

• 1:51:46Bill Simmons?

  By the last like minute and a half of the song and he's just playing and now she's like turning over and walking toward him. And she's now like, and her eyes are starting to bulge out and she's like, you'll never forget. I forget the lyrics. The, the voice of the woman that haunts you. And she's just like yelling it out and he's just like, all right, cool. And he's just playing the guitar. Well, that must've made him want to get back together. Well, and then at the end, she's like, the lyrics in the song are you'll never get away from the voice of the woman that loves you. And she's like, you'll never get away. You'll never get away. And she's like, and it's a thing. And it's become, ever since YouTube popped up, it's become a thing.

• 1:52:28Bill Simmons?

  And then there's all these theories about the performance, how much of it was performative, how much it was staged. This Reddit thread that I got sent was about how they're preparing to do this comeback thing and they might've gotten involved a little bit again. And because they have these different interviews where they're talking about what a good place they're in and they're, they have interviews together where they seem a little lovey dovey. And maybe, maybe some sparks will fly, maybe not. But then by the time they do the dance, it's clear to her that she, that he's with somebody else, like for whatever, because here's the piece. He has a kid the next summer. So this is what the thread was about.

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  That's evidence. That's usually good evidence. Yeah.

• 1:53:16Bill Simmons?

  With somebody else. By the time they do this performance, he probably knew they're having the kid. And this was when it maybe died for Lindsay. So the theory was, for Stevie, so the theory was when she's singing this, it's like within a few weeks of after she found out, maybe they don't have a chance to get back together. And she's pouring it on in the thing. But it's a legendary YouTube clip. Anyway, I read, I spent an hour and a half reading everything I could read about this on the internet yesterday at 2:30 in the morning, Boston time.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  I think that's time well spent.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  That's good because I'll get into a band, whether it's new or something I want to revisit. And I'll be like, all right, I'm going to read about Dwayne Allman for an hour, you know? So I actually do kind of like this stuff.

• 1:54:03Bill Simmons?

  It's the seventies music stuff. Everybody's got a story that is at least worth an hour of your time that goes in a bunch of different directions. The other thing I found out was there's a 1977 performance of Silver Springs because people thought they never really played it that much. That's on YouTube in black and white of like an original performance of her, like right after they broke up singing it. So I watched that too. Anyway.

• 1:54:26Speaker 01

  Because I'll go through some like Talking Heads phases. I love them and I, I like them so much that, you know, again, it's, I'm not going to get to experience it the way people got to experience when it first happened. But I always think like I'm having Les Claypool of Primus on at some point here soon, who's generally considered one of the best bass players of all time. And in the beginning with Primus, you were just like, what the fuck is this? And I'm, I'm so fascinated to think of like what it was like when Les Claypool's like, well, I want to make the bass the feature thing and I'm going to sing these songs and they're going to be a little different. And my voice is probably not the most traditional rock star kind of voice. But then once you kind of buy into the whole thing, you just appreciate how great the music is and how great he is. But I can't imagine how many people told him in the beginning, like, are you kidding?

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  This isn't going to work. And when I think about the Talking Heads, like I just imagine, was New York so cool? Cause I read that Please Kill Me punk book about just punk in New York City. Yeah. And I, I'm glad I read it and I'm also like, it was so disgusting. That I couldn't, you know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna get through this.

• 1:55:27Bill Simmons?

  It was too grisly.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  It was so gross in so many spots, and I certainly don't feel like a prude, but after a while, you're like, all right, I got it. It was a weird time.

• 1:55:37Bill Simmons?

  Wait, can I read you Silver Springs lyrics really quick and then you go to your deep dive?

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you have to sing it.

• 1:55:43Bill Simmons?

  Just a couple of samplings?

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  You have to sing it.

• 1:55:47Bill Simmons?

  "Time cast a spell on you, but you won't forget me. I know I could have loved you, but you would not let me."

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  I know that.

• 1:55:55Bill Simmons?

  And then later, "I'll follow you down till the sound of my voice will haunt you. Give me just the chance. You'll never get away from the sound of the woman that loves you." This is when she kicks it up in the, in the performance. And then the end is, "Was I such a fool? I'll follow you down till the sound of my voice will haunt you. Give me just the chance. You'll never get away from the sound of a woman that loves you." And then it just keeps going and going, going. Yeah. Anyway, it all played out on stage and it's amazing. And it's one of the best YouTube clips.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  She screams, "You're man, you man whore," I think, too, in there? No?

• 1:56:33Bill Simmons?

  I don't remember that part.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Okay. Uh, yeah. So I referenced her, I think at the very top. Um, I'm reading, uh, all three volumes of, uh, Susan Wise Bowers. The first one's The History of the Ancient World. Um, and I just love it. She's a complete pragmatist about things and I'm going through some of the early Egyptian dynasties. And so I just finished the chapters on the pyramids. And I don't understand why people love conspiracy so much. I know it's conspiracy build. This may be offensive to you, but usually there's a very simple, the, the Occam's razor,

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  you know, what's the simplest explanation? Be like, that's probably what it is. So there was another author.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  A Swiss author named Eric von Dynakin, Donakin, who wrote this book about how aliens essentially built the pyramids. And he wrote this book in the 60s and it did really well. And then, you know, you always kind of wondered like, what the hell's going on over there in Egypt? And if I had a kid and I couldn't answer that, I, you know, again, it's probably why I'm not a parent.

• 1:57:44Bill Simmons?

  You don't have a kid?

• 1:57:45Speaker 01

  No, but I feel like ill-equipped if I had had a kid. It was like, what's up with the pyramids? And I go, you know, shit, he's got me. I haven't done a ton of research and I want to just go based on the Swiss authors thing from the 1960s. But Susan's explanation of it, like after you read literally two pages, Bill, about the history of like how the pyramids get started, like one's small. It's six levels up. So the next guy's like, well, mine's got to be seven. And then the next guy's like, well, I'm going to do like eight, but then that one doesn't get finished. Then another one doesn't get finished. Then there's another one called the Bent Pyramid where they're just kind of like moving them further away from everywhere for the previous one who's built, by the way.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  And that's called the Bent Pyramid because they realized halfway through construction, if their angles are off and it's going to be too steep and then it's not going to hold up. So they have to like flatten it out a little bit. So there is physical visual evidence to this day of what would be kind of man's attempt at building these great works.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  And she just goes like, look, this one was small. Then they tried to build this one. It didn't really work. This one was unfinished. And then this one's like really screwed up. And yeah, they've done a good job with the corners and it's a massive undertaking, but they just basically asked their citizens based on the pharaoh's power of like, no, this is what we're doing, dude. Like we're building it and we're moving these stones around and it can take forever, but we're going to leave you some water and maybe like a sarong or something. And then they master, like any civilization, they become better at building these things. And all it took was like a couple of pages for me to go, okay, well, that's the answer. Like that's it.

• 1:59:29Bill Simmons?

  So now you're set.

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'm going to have a kid is my point because now I can answer that question.

• 1:59:35Bill Simmons?

  What you just laid out reminded me of what happened in Vegas when they were building the casinos and the themes got stupider and stupider. And they're like, we're going to have a casino.

• 1:59:46Bill Simmons?

  It's it's New York, New York. It's gonna be like going to New York in a casino. And then somebody else would be like, whoa, I'm gonna make a casino called Aladdin. And we just go and it's like you, it's like being in a fantasy. And then somebody else was like, I'm gonna create Paris. And it's just gonna be like going to Paris.

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  Except not.

• 2:00:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm doing Venetian and it's gonna be like going Italy. Some of these casinos stayed and then other ones just, you know, failed miserably.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  That's a really good, it's exactly, well, it's not exactly because I don't think anybody's ever accused, despite some of the weird Vegas stuff of ever being built by aliens, but like, not being educated on it and going, yeah, what is going on? Is it, is it actually a perfect representation of all this mathematical stuff? Is it a reflection of the stars? Like all of these theories that I've heard over and over again. And then I never thought of like the simplest approach to it is that, here's the first one, here's the second one, third, fourth, and like by the time, I think it's like the sixth or seventh one. It's like, okay, now we've really got this thing locked in because we've been trying to build these things for years and years. And you go, oh, wow. All right. Yeah, that actually makes a ton of sense.

• 2:01:01Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if that's gonna happen with NBA trades. Where the KD trade was basically your version of them completely fucking up that last pyramid before they got better at it. Or maybe the Luca trade will be the last one and then we'll just get better at trades from that point on. Maybe not.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  That'll never happen. No. They'll still mess up some pyramids.

• 2:01:24Bill Simmons?

  They'll probably still mess up some.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  It's 2025 and Luca just got traded. Um, that should have been a 1975 trade. Yeah.

• 2:01:34Bill Simmons?

  Uh, it was really funny sitting next to my dad because he's like an old married couple with the Celtics team. Cause he's been watching these guys so long. And so like the start of the second quarter, Jalen Tatum's out and it's going to be like Jalen's five minutes where it's like that part of the concert where it's like Keith Richards has a new song for you and he's going to come out and play like his song. And my dad's just like, watch this, Jalen's just gonna, he's just gonna try to get some shots off. Like this is, we just watch what's gonna and it was like, he knows the team. He's been going to the games too long. He knows like every part of it. And it was just really funny because our record is like 39 and 15 and we won the title last year. And it just proved to me, my 77 year old dad,

• 2:02:16Bill Simmons?

  you're just never going to be happy with sports. He's complaining about Jalen, who's awesome.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  I think because they get older, and I'm going through this a little bit with my dad, where like he'll complain about something sports related. And I just go, what, what are you talking about, man? Like, what do you not, do you not watch, does your father not watch enough, enough like other games? Will he watch other NBA games in a non Celtics life?

• 2:02:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, he'll, he'll watch the TNT, ABC sometime, but he watches every Celtics game.

• 2:02:46Bill Simmons?

  Which is kind of adorable because that's how he finds out sometimes about other teams. Like guys, like he went to see Wemby right before the break and it was his first Wemby game. And it was just his scouting report really made me laugh because it was like, he's so long.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  He's not wrong.

• 2:03:04Bill Simmons?

  You think you have him and then he blocks it. I was like, yeah. Yeah, that's what it's like.

• 2:03:10Speaker 01

  I think it's a common thing with guys past a certain age is they're just so much older. They're selfish. They're incredibly selfish about what they want from their sports teams. And I don't know if it's a counting down the years. I'm not trying to be like morbid about this, but it's

• 2:03:25Bill Simmons?

  Possible.

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  It, like my father can be so incredibly difficult. Like I went to a sporting event with him and now, meanwhile, the guy hasn't had to pay for a ticket because I've helped him.

• 2:03:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:37Speaker 01

  You know, which I'm happy to do as a payback for all the years that he took me to all the games growing up. But like if the Celtics get up big, he'll want the other team to make a run for his soul.

• 2:03:47Bill Simmons?

  Just to make it more fun?

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'll just be like, hey, you can't, you can't fucking be doing that. All right? Like you can't, you can't be rooting on the other team for this five minute window. And he's like, I only get to a couple of these a year. It's like, well, you know what? You didn't pay for anything. The seat is awesome. And you need to not root for the Cavs for six minutes, just so you get not only a win, but a close one.

• 2:04:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, I like with the older fans, how cut and dry it becomes. Like my dad just wanted the Red Sox to sign Bregman. He's like, we need a right hand hitter. He's going to be good in Fenway. He looked up no stats.

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  None.

• 2:04:30Bill Simmons?

  He had no, there was no b-bip. There was no.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  Average annual salary.

• 2:04:35Bill Simmons?

  Home road splits.

• 2:04:36Speaker 01

  These guys don't care.

• 2:04:38Bill Simmons?

  No, it's like, we need a right hand hitter and he's been really good in Fenway. He can't, you know, he can't lay down any of the stats of Bregman actually in Fenway, but that's just where he stands and that's the way it is.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. See, that's, that's always like the funny thing with, um, you know, we're terrible because we live it, but your dad, and I don't even mean your dad or my dad, but everybody listening to this right now, like your dad's advanced scouting is if the guy had two doubles in like a three game series once.

• 2:05:09Bill Simmons?

  It's the Doc Rivers as a GM strategy of when I played Byron Mullins that time when he hit those threes, we gotta get him.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  Was there any part of you that immediately looked up Bregman's deal and then compared it to the average annual salary of Mookie Betts?

• 2:05:25Bill Simmons?

  No, I didn't do that, but I will say, I didn't think it was, I looked at his stats and noticed that he hadn't had a really awesome year until, since 2019, which made me nervous. But then MLB released their top 100 players and he was like 57. I was like, yeah, baby. Bregman. Kind of sucked me back a little bit. The Red Sox had four of the top 100.

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  Well, I'm all over, um, baseball America again. I renewed my subscription.

• 2:05:51Bill Simmons?

  Right. The prospects?

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Big farm. I mean, that was my lunch reading for years and years.

• 2:05:57Bill Simmons?

  Little Christian Campbell, little Marcelo Mayer.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  Derek Barden.

• 2:06:00Bill Simmons?

  Roman Anthony.

• 2:06:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, the Bregman thing pissed me off just because I can't think of any transaction without Mookie. I'm surprised. I would say 38 year old Bill probably have seven, 7,500 words on the Mookie Luca thing.

• 2:06:17Bill Simmons?

  No, you know what? We, I, I have 20 words for you right now. The Luca trade made me feel better about Mookie.

• 2:06:25Bill Simmons?

  It actually, it was a trade that was so much worse than the Mookie trade, which was reprehensible and awful. Cause at least we won the title with Mookie. Like they never even won the title with Luca, then they traded him for, you know, they probably got more in the trade. But, uh, but I, I really identified with the Mavs fans because what they were feeling after the trade was like Red Sox fans on steroids and HGH, how we felt with Mookie where you, but at least with the Mookie thing, we had time to prepare. And it seemed, it seemed like it was headed that way for a year. It's like, oh man, they're gonna fight. This is not gonna end well. Luca, they had no idea.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  No, there was a lot of preparation on the movie thing. And I know it's not fair to do average annual salary because the Bregman thing can be a one-year deal. Um, but you know, one of the things about like these commitments for these, these position players that historically have been so bad in baseball, with him, you figure he was going to age, right? And you just go like, look what his deal will be in seven years, average annual salary compared to like what you're signing for now. And then what it will be is salaries keep going up. Um, although you know, that's another topic that we could probably spend a lot of time on because I thought that ESPN baseball news was crazy. Like it was like, wow, you guys are actually opting out of live rights. You're gonna do it.

• 2:07:44Bill Simmons?

  And then Manfred just daggers.

• 2:07:50Bill Simmons?

  We, we didn't want to be on a declining platform or whatever he said that I couldn't believe that. But you know, he's, he's setting the table because he needs to negotiate with other people. And he's trying to make it seem like ESPN was a bad partner and that's why our ratings were down because they didn't push the game. I get why he did it. It's just really unusual. Um, but I, I think baseball is a local sport and I think we've known that for 10 years and you would have personally talked about it 10 times. I don't think people want to said, oh, it's Sunday night. I'm going to watch the Cincinnati Reds play the Milwaukee Brewers. Like, nobody's doing that.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  And if they're doing it, they're 60 years old. Do you remember when you used to do it? Cause I did it religiously. It didn't matter who was playing with Sunday night baseball and I couldn't wait.

• 2:08:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, days are over. All right, we gotta go. Uh, Russillo, good to see you. We'll see you next Sunday and, uh, next Sunday when, when Celtic City starts. The last segment of the pod, we're gonna do some sort of topic based off of whatever the first episode was, so.

• 2:08:47Speaker 01

  Gotta be good to get some Celtics content in the pod. Fired up.

• 2:08:50Bill Simmons?

  That's what the people wanted. They kept asking. Good to see you, Russillo.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Good to see you.

• 2:08:54Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Russillo. Thanks to Kyle and Saridi and Gahow as well. Don't forget, you can watch this as a video podcast. You can also check out clips on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. We have a new rewatchables coming on Monday night. That is a video podcast as well on Spotify. Uh, and you can check out The Ringer Movies YouTube channel for entire videos of that as well. I'm gonna see you on Tuesday. Enjoy, um, the next couple of days and I'll see you Tuesday.

• 2:09:45Bill Simmons?

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