‘Wonder Man’ Is the Rare Marvel TV Show That Works. Plus, Does ‘The Pitt’ Need More Conflict?

Chris and Andy talk about Marvel’s latest television offering, ‘Wonder Man,’ and why it’s the strongest MCU entry in years (6:56). Later, they discuss Season 2, Episode 4 of ‘The Pitt’ and whether this season could use more tension between its characters (29:49). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:17Speaker 01

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, fresh off a day player part in American Horror Story, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:36Andy Greenwald?

  Nice, Wundermann.

• 1:38Chris Ryan?

  Wundermann. Is that how you pronounce it?

• 1:40Andy Greenwald?

  Well, originally, yes, the Wundermanns, like the Effengers, sailed from Germany during a time of transition.

• 1:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay, Franzen. Andy, great to see you. It's Chaos Menu Thursday. Actually, not very chaotic.

• 1:52Andy Greenwald?

  No, we're pretty pointed in focus today.

• 1:54Chris Ryan?

  Two TV shows. I gotta get on a plane and go to Boston. The forecast for Saturday is high of 14, low of zero.

• 2:03Andy Greenwald?

  It sounds like you lost a bet on the AFC Championship game.

• 2:06Chris Ryan?

  I can't wait.

• 2:07Andy Greenwald?

  This is good.

• 2:08Chris Ryan?

  I can't wait.

• 2:08Andy Greenwald?

  This is a positive.

• 2:09Chris Ryan?

  This is pressure breaks pipes or pressure makes diamonds, right?

• 2:14Andy Greenwald?

  What does it do to pipes?

• 2:15Chris Ryan?

  Well, I don't know what it does to podcasters. Yasi and I are going to be in Boston this weekend. We have a live show at the Sinclair on Friday and we're showing Repo Man at the Coolidge on Saturday. I think there might be some Coolidge tickets still available, but if you're in Boston and you get out of the carcass of your tauntaun that you were living in and you want to come see me,

• 2:38Chris Ryan?

  those are the two places I'll be.

• 2:40Andy Greenwald?

  Are you prepared to give, like, are you going to be giving like cold weather advice to Yasi? Are you going to like talk her through?

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  You know, she's only, I honestly have been, it's been hard because I want to say like, damn, it's going to be really cold. I hope we can take off on Sunday if it snows again.

• 2:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Chris Ryan?

  And she's like, you have to talk me down. Should I be bringing like a personal radiator to come with me? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. So.

• 3:04Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, so you're going to have to act tough, even though you're, you are LA soft.

• 3:07Chris Ryan?

  No, I'm not. I'm not LA soft. I just spent like three weeks on the East Coast. It was like 20 degrees every day. I was getting tired of it.

• 3:14Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  But I can handle it. I went to college in Boston.

• 3:17Andy Greenwald?

  Look, we all went to college in Boston. I'm just saying. I've never been colder in my life than I am during in LA winter.

• 3:25Chris Ryan?

  Are you serious?

• 3:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because this is one of my greatest takes.

• 3:28Chris Ryan?

  You're like a little chilly in your house when it's 52 degrees?

• 3:31Andy Greenwald?

  Well, my house is shaded, you know, it doesn't get a lot of direct sunlight. No, because I'm not asking for sympathy from the nation that is digging out of a historic snowstorm. I'm just saying that on the East Coast and in our other favorite place of London, the buildings are made of like pieces that they didn't use for Stonehenge.

• 3:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:50Andy Greenwald?

  And so it is warm and all the clothing and all the life is built to behave appropriately.

• 3:57Chris Ryan?

  Warm your body without straight alcohol.

• 4:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, yes. And everything here is made out of paper mache. And, and the heat doesn't work so good.

• 4:07Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:07Andy Greenwald?

  That's all. I'm just saying it is a, it is a weirder persistent chill.

• 4:10Chris Ryan?

  The heat does not work as well here. It's true.

• 4:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's all.

• 4:13Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, it's, um, it's probably the number one thing going wrong with this country is LA interior heating.

• 4:19Andy Greenwald?

  I was a little chilly, so think about me.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  Andy, today we're gonna talk about The Pit. Uh, and we're gonna talk about Wonder Man.

• 4:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 4:26Chris Ryan?

  A new show on Marvel, uh, on Marvel, on Disney Plus, from Marvel Studios.

• 4:32Andy Greenwald?

  What is, what does Tim Robinson say in Friendship? There's a new Marvel out. It's supposed to be sick. No, it's supposed to be nuts. He says it's supposed to be nuts. And honestly?

• 4:42Chris Ryan?

  Um, and we're fans of both shows, so I'm excited to talk to you about them.

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  Rip off the Band-Aid. Tell people that we love things. It's good.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we loved, we loved Wonder Man. Uh, we're gonna be talking about that and, um, I can't think, there was not a lot of news. We've got Sundance, we got Peacock, uh, losing some money, but gaining some subs. It's funny how that works.

• 5:02Andy Greenwald?

  Can we cut to the Harper Stern meme for just like?

• 5:09Andy Greenwald?

  It's an opportunity.

• 5:10Chris Ryan?

  It is.

• 5:11Andy Greenwald?

  Sharks. No, that's a different show.

• 5:12Chris Ryan?

  No, a full shorting of a streamer. What would you, which one would you pick? Uh. I know that you're in business with several of them, so you shouldn't really say the answer.

• 5:20Andy Greenwald?

  Well, in a way, as a subscriber, you two, you also are in business with them.

• 5:23Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I'm a shareholder.

• 5:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 5:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. An intellectual shareholder.

• 5:27Andy Greenwald?

  You're paying some of my salary, so thank you.

• 5:31Andy Greenwald?

  It's really nice of you. I appreciate that. Um, it would be a fun thing that they would never do and should never do. But when we have Mickey and Conrad from Industry back on the show, we should just ask them to short major media brands. They, they have to have a career, so they shouldn't do that.

• 5:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes. You don't?

• 5:51Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 5:51Chris Ryan?

  Well, you have this to fall back on.

• 5:53Andy Greenwald?

  I just have, this is my, exactly. This is my little safety blanket.

• 5:57Chris Ryan?

  It's a cold LA winter.

• 5:59Andy Greenwald?

  Ooh, I'm so chilly. Well, didn't you see that like Sundance? I mean, I don't want to kick it when it's down. I mean, they're leaving Park City, but like there is the Sundance Channel and they are rebranding. But their rebrand was that they're algorithm free, which.

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  What does that mean?

• 6:16Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know.

• 6:17Chris Ryan?

  The channel on cable?

• 6:19Andy Greenwald?

  It's like a streaming service. Yes, yes.

• 6:20Chris Ryan?

  Oh, they're gonna start an app and it's algorithm free. So it's just an alphabetical list of what they have?

• 6:25Andy Greenwald?

  Is it like you just go to a restaurant and they just bring you what's in the kitchen?

• 6:30Andy Greenwald?

  Which by the way.

• 6:31Chris Ryan?

  Many restaurants in LA.

• 6:33Andy Greenwald?

  You're charging $250 a person right now.

• 6:36Chris Ryan?

  I was going to dinner this, I went to dinner this past weekend. With, with our buddy Zach. And he was sending me like, what do you think about this? And what do you think about that? And he sent me one place that had, it was like focaccia, pork and apples dessert. And I was like, that needs to be one of the great pork and apples that anyone's ever tasted. Because you've just really, you're, you're fucking pot committed to that pork and apples.

• 7:03Andy Greenwald?

  I want to say, and I, I love Zach and I rely on his level, relative level headedness in our sports chats.

• 7:10Chris Ryan?

  And his ball knowledge.

• 7:11Andy Greenwald?

  But, yes, but I do think that one of the great things that, that has separated him from us.

• 7:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Andy Greenwald?

  Like generationally and age wise, is that I think he still believes in the possibility of new restaurants.

• 7:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 7:24Andy Greenwald?

  Like deeply, he like has a little list. He's like, I'll check it out. I will find out what's good and what's bad. And I just sit in my unheated shady.

• 7:32Chris Ryan?

  Home. You're igloo.

• 7:35Andy Greenwald?

  Looking at people, looking at, looking at, at Renee from Noma being like, who should I bless with my, with my presence here in Los Angeles? Ah, a bagel store that already has three hour waits.

• 7:47Chris Ryan?

  Ah, um.

• 7:49Andy Greenwald?

  Did you cop a $25 Noma Courage Bagel?

• 7:53Chris Ryan?

  No, I've got it all on my Klarna for my Noma L.A. pop-up.

• 7:58Andy Greenwald?

  You have it all on your Klarna?

• 7:59Chris Ryan?

  I'm paying it $1 a year for the next 1,500 years.

• 8:03Andy Greenwald?

  I think it'll work out for you.

• 8:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay, let's talk about The Pit first. How about that? Do you want to do that first?

• 8:07Andy Greenwald?

  No, we'll do Wonder Man first.

• 8:08Chris Ryan?

  Okay, let's do Wonder Man first. Yeah. What a delight, first of all. This is a show created by Destin Daniel Cretton, who-

• 8:16Andy Greenwald?

  And Andrew Guest.

• 8:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes, and Andrew Guest. I wasn't gonna-

• 8:19Andy Greenwald?

  No Andrew Guest erasure here.

• 8:20Chris Ryan?

  No, and Andrew Guest is kind of a big deal. Like, he's written some of my favorite episodes of Community. He's like a very, very talented writer. And Destin Daniel Cretton, who is somebody that we were both huge fans of when he kind of broke out with Short Term 12 all those years ago with one of the like, kind of zazziest, you know, ensembles of young actors that have since gone on to do a bunch of great things.

• 8:46Chris Ryan?

  Had like, a very interesting career where it was like, this indie breakout to almost throwback Hollywood dramas in Glass Castle. It's a Brie Larson movie, and then Just Mercy, which is the Michael B. Jordan courtroom drama. And then has kind of since moved into Marvel in-house. And now among the like, most trusted pair of hands in Marvel.

• 9:11Andy Greenwald?

  He did the Shang-Chi movie, which was pretty good. And I think then was under some sort of creative overhaul with Disney and Marvel.

• 9:18Chris Ryan?

  I really liked the ending of Shang-Chi. I thought that was when it really came together.

• 9:21Andy Greenwald?

  I'm trying to remember, which ending? After the credits?

• 9:23Chris Ryan?

  No, the all the stuff at the end.

• 9:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like the big battle in the cartoon place? Very memorable.

• 9:32Andy Greenwald?

  And like, but was, as you said, like, trusted enough to be brought in to be a creative consultant and creator in all of their various spaces, which included making TV shows like this one. And then briefly, he was going to be making an Avengers movie before the great Kang crack-up.

• 9:46Chris Ryan?

  And the Russo return.

• 9:48Andy Greenwald?

  And then he was demoted to making Spider-Man movie, which will probably also be the biggest movie of the year. So, yeah, he's doing great. The genesis of this show is interesting, because it is kind of a- We've used this metaphor before, but like, the way the light we see in the sky from stars is actually from quite some time ago, in a way. You ever think about that? This is a similar echo, because-

• 10:12Chris Ryan?

  And I echo the-

• 10:13Andy Greenwald?

  No, although, that's good.

• 10:17Andy Greenwald?

  This show was fully being filmed and in production during up to, not during the strike, they were not breaking the strike, but leading up to the strike in 2023.

• 10:26Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 10:27Andy Greenwald?

  When in the pilot of the series, they are filming on Figaro and Highland Park. I'm like, oh, this is before Jenny's Ice Cream opened. Like, this is a number of years ago.

• 10:35Chris Ryan?

  But I thought that there was, I think the Mendocino Farms is open across the street, or is it just the building?

• 10:41Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's just the building.

• 10:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 10:42Andy Greenwald?

  This is now we're really getting into this LA stuff. Although there's a great Mendocino Farms joke in Wonder Man. When we had, I don't remember if it was for her book or not, but there was a time when our friend Joanna Robinson was on this podcast and we were talking to her about the state of Marvel. And she was even suggesting, and she doesn't just throw stuff out there, that this show was so much, so not troubled in terms of its production, but so no longer the direction that the company was facing in, that it may be just discovered completely. This is clearly not the case, although you wouldn't necessarily know the quality of the show from the promotion that it's gotten. Disney has dumped all eight episodes in January with some promotion, but I would say minimal promotion.

• 11:27Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 11:28Andy Greenwald?

  This is a shame because this is, this is, it's too, I've seen half the season. I've seen four of the eight episodes. It is too faint praise to say that this is one of the best things Marvel Television has done, because the competition for that is WandaVision and Loki, basically.

• 11:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think it's, this, it's also worth noting that it's part of the Marvel Spotlight subgenre or brand that they have.

• 11:54Andy Greenwald?

  Which they've used on Echo.

• 11:55Chris Ryan?

  For Werewolf by Night.

• 11:56Andy Greenwald?

  And Echo.

• 11:57Chris Ryan?

  And Echo, yeah. But it's supposed to be their like, is this the one that they're like, you don't have to have watched other Marvel stuff to understand that?

• 12:05Andy Greenwald?

  I think that was the idea.

• 12:06Chris Ryan?

  Or is it, this is our, like, our sort of like Paramount vantage?

• 12:11Andy Greenwald?

  The fact that we don't know kind of highlights why this is sort of silly.

• 12:15Chris Ryan?

  Well, it was created in an era where I think they thought they were going to have a lot more volume.

• 12:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 12:20Chris Ryan?

  And so they were going to be like, this is the way to distinguish some of these shows is that some of them you're going to need to know, understand like canonical connections. And some of them might just be like artistic flourishes or fun one offs.

• 12:32Andy Greenwald?

  This is a wonderful, low key.

• 12:36Andy Greenwald?

  Universally enjoyable television show, full stop. It's great.

• 12:39Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:40Andy Greenwald?

  I really love the show and not with the caveat of for a Marvel thing.

• 12:43Chris Ryan?

  I agree with you.

• 12:44Andy Greenwald?

  It is made with such thoughtfulness, such care. It is incredibly clever. It is heartwarming and appealing in ways that are not unlike why I'm gonna potentially overpraise this just episode of The Pit. That's just a normal episode of The Pit in the sense that I was like, I love, I, I, call me old fashioned, but when I'm shivering at night in my little house in Los Angeles, I love turning on the space heater and watching my stories.

• 13:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:12Andy Greenwald?

  Where there are characters with relationships that surprise a little bit, but comfort and entertain.

• 13:16Chris Ryan?

  Two things people always say about you.

• 13:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, go ahead, go, tell me, I can face my critics.

• 13:20Chris Ryan?

  A strong backbone when it comes to the natural elements.

• 13:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 13:23Chris Ryan?

  And you're always down to watch more television.

• 13:26Andy Greenwald?

  I'm telling on myself here, but I gotta be me.

• 13:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Put it on your MySpace profile.

• 13:33Andy Greenwald?

  I update it frequently. So the conceit here, and we can put on or off, or maybe I live with it, my nerd hat to say that Wonder Man is a canonical Marvel superhero, a member of the Avengers, the West Coast Avengers for the time.

• 13:47Chris Ryan?

  But honestly, I'm kinda, this, this, this woke something up in me where I'm like, hope this guy shows up and some other stuff.

• 13:54Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, so I wanna circle back to that, but just for the people to know that the, in the comics, he's an actor stuntman who gets superpowers. There's some overlap with vision character and a relationship with Scarlet Witch, but generally doesn't really distinguish himself much. As my younger daughter said, oh, so they're just taking Wonder Woman and putting man on it now? And I was like, that's some cutting commentary.

• 14:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Andy Greenwald?

  You should have a podcast.

• 14:19Andy Greenwald?

  The, one of the very clever reinventions here is the way that Destin Daniel Cretin and Andrew Guest have thought about what might make this character interesting and run straight towards it.

• 14:31Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 14:31Andy Greenwald?

  So in this, Yaya Abdul-Mateen II from Watchmen.

• 14:37Andy Greenwald?

  And other things plays Simon Williams, who is a two in his head, serious aspiring actor in Los Angeles, who over the course of time, we will realize has some sort of powers. But that's not the focus. What we focus on is that he basically can't get an audition or can't get out of his own way and is fired in the first episode from his guest appearance on American Horror Story.

• 14:58Chris Ryan?

  In a fantastic behind the scenes Hollywood moment and also an example of vertical integration, because now that everything is Disney, you know.

• 15:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 15:07Chris Ryan?

  American Horror Story and FX show is being used as a backdrop for a Marvel show. But it's an absolutely fabulous introductory scene of this guy going in to do a day player spot where he's just going to have one line and then he's supposed to be out and he basically brings the production to its knees with questions, add-ons, background information about his character that's not on the page and all this stuff.

• 15:34Andy Greenwald?

  Playing against, I think that's Ashley Green, who is in Twilight.

• 15:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Andy Greenwald?

  It is, in terms of like industry satire, it is not as manic and frantic as the studio, but it's not far off in terms of the realities of life here.

• 15:49Chris Ryan?

  It's a different strata of Hollywood.

• 15:52Andy Greenwald?

  Correct.

• 15:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Andy Greenwald?

  The other brilliant decision that they made here is bringing back Ben Kingsley, who, I mean, I think we are fans of Iron Man 3.

• 16:04Chris Ryan?

  I'm a huge fan of Iron Man 3.

• 16:06Andy Greenwald?

  For those who haven't really caught up on the Iron Man trilogy, non-related to the, you know, the larger multiverse saga, Kaya, looking at you, Ben Kingsley was cast as the infamous Iron Man villain, the Mandarin.

• 16:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:19Andy Greenwald?

  And but the movie reveals that the Mandarin is just a, an actor named Trevor hired to play this part by the real villains. And so then this character kicked around to your favorite, Shang-Chi, and then shows up here.

• 16:32Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:33Andy Greenwald?

  Guys, Ben Kingsley is on a 30-minute Disney Plus show. Ben Kingsley is one of the best actors of his generation.

• 16:40Chris Ryan?

  But you only.

• 16:40Andy Greenwald?

  He's 82 years young and he's crushing it on this show.

• 16:43Chris Ryan?

  I would say it's closer tonally to.

• 16:48Chris Ryan?

  Like a Sterling Harjo show than it is to a Marvel show.

• 16:52Andy Greenwald?

  Wonder about it, yeah.

• 16:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so when you say 30 minutes, it's not like Ben Kingsley's summing it. It's some of the best work he's done.

• 16:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 16:58Chris Ryan?

  In years, or at least like one of the best parts he's had in years. A part he's played before, but now is like, basically that these are two people on either end of their careers, kicking around Hollywood, going to auditions.

• 17:10Andy Greenwald?

  Going to matinees of classic films.

• 17:12Chris Ryan?

  Doing self tapes, you know, and dealing with the economic and personal struggles that come with being an artist, you know, in 2025 or whatever it is. I really love this show. Before we get too deep into like the mechanics of each episode or whatever, which are all up on Disney Plus, I thought I would just mention that this is just one of the strangest stories, behind the scenes stuff that I've seen in a long time. Obviously, Disney Plus slash Marvel has undergone several, both from the Chapek to Iger to leader to come sense, like a bunch of leadership changes. They've also gone through a lot of philosophical changes in terms of how much stuff they're

• 17:54Chris Ryan?

  putting on Disney Plus, what they're putting on Disney Plus, what people want, you know. This is definitely a product that seems like it got caught between a couple of different administrations or, or strategies. But from everything I've heard, from the like, not reporting, but like just chatter, is that this was always beloved inside the building.

• 18:17Andy Greenwald?

  That's good to hear.

• 18:18Chris Ryan?

  And that everybody was like, this is so good. And that this was held until January for a variety of reasons. And I think actually the binge is probably good for it, if it's going to be the way it is. I think if people, I thought the pilot was flawless. But I could also see a lot of Marvel heads being like, what's this show?

• 18:41Andy Greenwald?

  Why, how much of, why am I watching two men watch Midnight Cowboy?

• 18:44Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 18:48Chris Ryan?

  The aperture for its success was rather small then.

• 18:51Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 18:51Chris Ryan?

  If you had been like, "Next week on Wonder Man, these guys go to Take's Restaurant."

• 18:58Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it's possible.

• 18:59Chris Ryan?

  But they do, and it's just kinda, you know, so you have to give people a little bit of runway. And frankly, this is one of the first shows in a while that I've been like, beyond my professional obligation, freely hit next episode.

• 19:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 19:14Chris Ryan?

  To watch the next one. So I think the binge probably works for it as broadly, but I don't know if it does much for its, um, week-to-week marketing and buildup.

• 19:25Andy Greenwald?

  But let's get, and I, we probably should have said this at the top, but like, we haven't spoiled anything particularly yet. We could get into some more details momentarily. But I do think it's worth noting that I'm so, given the pedigree, I'm not surprised that the show is good, but I am surprised how good it is. And the fact that, um, we've spent the last year correctly praising Andor, and more recently praising Night of the Seven Kingdoms for kind of providing, not similar blueprints, but successful blueprints for how to exist within a larger franchise, and how to stand out, and how to differentiate yourself, and how to tell a different sort of story underneath a much larger corporate genre IP umbrella.

• 20:10Andy Greenwald?

  And I think Wonder Man deserves to be talked about in the same way. I'm not saying Wonder Man is a creative achievement on par with Andor. I'm not comparing one to the other.

• 20:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 20:19Andy Greenwald?

  But I'm saying that what Andrew and Destin Daniel Cretin have done here is carved out, carved out a little room to play that feels tonally, um, consistent. Like, there are references to Captain America or Steve Rogers. There's a damage control as in, there's references to the larger Marvel Universe, should you care to engage with it. But what's lovely about the show is that there's just room for this to exist within itself. It's not constantly referencing other things. And one of the things that this made me feel in a surprising way was, and I think this is antithetical to what the initial Marvel TV plan was, but maybe should have been all along, which is...

• 21:03Andy Greenwald?

  The old version is we're going to tell stories that deserve to be upstream. And that's why Thunderbolts is a movie harvested from, you know, semi-successful plantings on the television farm.

• 21:13Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 21:14Andy Greenwald?

  I don't, what's wonderful about Wonder Man is that Ben Kingsley is playing this character who he's played quite broadly and comedically in movies as a person.

• 21:22Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:22Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, still, you know, there's some flourishes, but as a more complicated person with an inner life.

• 21:28Andy Greenwald?

  The character of Simon Williams, there's no room for that character to exist in a movie like Doomsday necessarily, nor should there be. Now, you know, joke's on me when he shows up and he, you know, punches Professor X out of his chair.

• 21:39Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 21:39Andy Greenwald?

  Or whatever. But like, this seems like, this all backs up maybe what you were saying, which is, it seems like the powers that be understood that they had something good and they left it alone.

• 21:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it feels very unfucked with.

• 21:55Chris Ryan?

  Because at least through the three that I've watched, the tone is so remarkably consistent and, and well identified where, you're, you're right. The references to the larger superhero world, I counted two of them, three of them. And one is a Rogers the Musical billboard in the back of the Disney Fox lot that they're on. And one happens in a, basically a little kernel of conversation between Simon and Trevor in a car about whether or not superheroes are allowed to audition for television shows.

• 22:39Andy Greenwald?

  And, and you haven't made it to episode four yet, but episode four is a basically contained black and white episode explaining the journey of a character named Damar.

• 22:50Chris Ryan?

  Dorman.

• 22:50Andy Greenwald?

  Dorman Davis.

• 22:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's referenced in three.

• 22:52Andy Greenwald?

  Played by Byron Bowers, is a very funny comedian.

• 22:56Andy Greenwald?

  With a, with a really, I would say, paradigm shifting guest performance by Josh Gad.

• 23:01Chris Ryan?

  Nice.

• 23:02Andy Greenwald?

  It is the kind of like little filigreed flourish that I can tell you from experience is pitched in every writer's room for every show ever.

• 23:13Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 23:13Andy Greenwald?

  Which is, we'll just do a little, we'll take a pause here and we'll do a little fun detour and tell a different story that people are gonna be like, oh, I'm in. And it rarely makes it onto the screen. And if it does, it's rarely as successful. This episode in and of itself is delightful.

• 23:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Andy Greenwald?

  And works.

• 23:28Chris Ryan?

  The premise of the show is essentially spelled out, not even the premise of the show, but the intent of the show is spelled out when a celebrated European filmmaker is hired to remake Wonder Man, which was a Star Trekkie 1960s Buck Rogers-ish sci-fi show, right?

• 23:49Andy Greenwald?

  Or movie, hard to tell what they're saying.

• 23:51Chris Ryan?

  Movie, yeah. And he's gonna remake it. And it's, you know, this guy, I think it's the guy who played, who is he in Superman?

• 24:01Andy Greenwald?

  He is the president of the evil nation who is infringing on

• 24:06Chris Ryan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 24:07Andy Greenwald?

  People's rights.

• 24:08Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 24:08Andy Greenwald?

  It's Lato Buric.

• 24:10Chris Ryan?

  And he plays, he plays like a Werner Herzog, Lars von Trier-ish kind of filmmaker who's like, you know, superhero movies, these superheroes are here and these, these stories count. And like, there's even conversations about Trojan horsing things in. And then, so you're having characters in a Trojan horse TV show talking about Trojan horsing things. But I didn't even really sweat that stuff, honestly. Because like, I thought that the character of Simon was three-dimensional enough and their relationship felt real enough. And each has ulterior motives. We find out a little bit about Ben Kingsley's mission to why he's sort of cozying up to Simon.

• 24:51Chris Ryan?

  And a lot of that has to do with a sort of government agency represented by Ari Moied from Succession, who is fantastic in this as well. Everything about this has been no perfect so far.

• 25:03Andy Greenwald?

  Great scene between them at Clark Street Diner.

• 25:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 25:06Andy Greenwald?

  There's a, of all the things on my bingo card for 2026, I did not expect a reference to Russell Hoban's Turtle Diary or the film version of it

• 25:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Andy Greenwald?

  in a Marvel television show, but here we are. I, I do want to just circle back to the Ben Kingsley of it all because It's not bizarre, because as you said, they're treating him with a lot of respect and giving him a lot of opportunities to do what he can do, which is slip into just jaw-dropping, charismatic, Shakespearean pomp and circumstance, but then also play light comedy, which he seems to be enjoying. He's so good on this show, and it's such an unexpected buddy comedy. And yes, there are moments, like in the third episode, when Simon brings his new friend Trevor home to his mother's birthday party in Pacoima, and she's like, "I'm so glad you brought a friend." And it's this diminutive 82-year-old Englishman.

• 25:58Chris Ryan?

  Who can't make eye contact with anyone, because he's actually running a surveillance operation.

• 26:03Andy Greenwald?

  It is a little sus.

• 26:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Andy Greenwald?

  But at the same time, he seems to be having fun, and it's just a wonderful showcase. And then I think there's the question of details. Now, I'm not necessarily the right person to judge this, but there's just a tension in these episodes that I've seen that I feel is not just rare in TV, but certainly rare in superhero TV. And it's not just the little jokes about Deadline.com or Mendocino Farms, because we get those, and I'm not sure if the larger world cares that much. But like, when Simon goes home and brings Trevor home in the third episode to his mother's birthday party, it's made very clear his mother is of Haitian descent, or from Haiti. And the food that they serve.

• 26:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Andy Greenwald?

  And the community that they capture, someone thought about it.

• 26:49Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:51Andy Greenwald?

  That takes decision-making, it takes empowered creatives, even just to get the establishing shots of actually Pacoima, and like, the streets of a place that is LA but isn't really LA in the way that people imagine it to be. That stuff matters.

• 27:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Andy Greenwald?

  It adds to a more cohesive and, I think, fulfilling viewing experience.

• 27:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I also really liked the fact that I was watching something from Marvel and something in this genre that wasn't full of exposition, where the exposition was more about character, and rather than tesseract, or, you know, an object that needed to be found. I mean, Ben Kingsley's mission through these few episodes so far is kind of vague.

• 27:30Andy Greenwald?

  It's to like, get information on Simon to potentially...

• 27:34Chris Ryan?

  Right, because Ari Moiad's character is under pressure to fill this new prison for superheroes, right?

• 27:40Andy Greenwald?

  Because now, this is the part, this is the only part that kind of I bumped on a little bit.

• 27:44Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 27:44Andy Greenwald?

  The government has overfunded a rogue, sort of police-like arm and wants to arrest tons of people to make a big show.

• 27:53Chris Ryan?

  Huh.

• 27:53Andy Greenwald?

  So that was like, whoa, whoa. And they're like empowering, you know, extralegal tactics and general goonery. That was weird.

• 28:01Chris Ryan?

  That was strange. Um, yeah, I don't, I'm trying to think if there was anything else I wanted to mention about it. James Ponsal directs the second two episodes after Cretin does the first two. Um, it's just, it's just, I really recommend it. I don't want to get too deep into like appearances and cameos and developments because maybe we can hit it next week, next Thursday or something to talk about the last couple of episodes.

• 28:23Andy Greenwald?

  Is there a part of you in watching these episodes where you were like, I kind of wish he didn't have powers?

• 28:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but I, I mean, here's the thing is that I was thinking about this, it's funny you bring up Andor because I think that we, we say that word a tremendous amount on this podcast. And it's so amusing that Andor has now become not only a touchstone of like, this is everything that we ever wanted from a franchise, but also, did you know that this costs $700 million? You know, which is, I don't know the exact figure, but like the reporting about what Andor wound up costing over the course of its two season run is, whether it's true or not, I don't care, it's every penny was worth it. You can see it on screen.

• 29:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 29:12Chris Ryan?

  But it is an intimidation tactic to be like, we just don't, we can't make this stuff for less than $300 million. So it's gotta be really popular and it's gotta appeal to the most people possible and it's gotta upstream to the cinematic universes off of the small screen because we can't just throw this money away and let you guys make Ratso Rizzo walking around with the, with, with, with Jon Voight, you know, like, which is essentially what this show has been so far.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  It shot in LA. It looks more expensive than it probably is. But this is such a great use of their money and their time and their server space. To put up a small, fun character study that I think people will go back to over and over again.

• 29:58Andy Greenwald?

  And in terms of, I completely agree with everything you just said. And I think in terms of the, the relationship to superpowers. This takes a page from, you know, currently unused on the big screen or small screen page from the X-Men playbook, in which it presents a character who doesn't want any of that. What he wants is something else. And the more traditional like Cambellian like call to power of the young, like we've seen for every version of that, where Peter Parker accepts the mantle of his great power and responsibility. This guy just wants to be in movies. This guy just loves movies.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:28Andy Greenwald?

  This guy just wants to be third chair in big picture if nothing else works out. You know, like, so the fact that the powers that he has are clamped down, tamped down, repressed, unwanted and unpredictable. And really so far through four episodes have only shown up in terms of his emotional landscape. That really works for me. And it's such a, that's not a new conceit for characters or even for comic books, but it's been a while.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:54Andy Greenwald?

  And it's really welcome.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Uh, okay. We'll leave it there. Highest recommendation we could possibly get.

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• 33:01Andy Greenwald?

  Let's go to the pit.

• 33:02Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Obviously, you were very enthusiastic about this episode.

• 33:06Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I was doing some self-reflection. I was cold, so I was trying to keep the mind sharp.

• 33:14Chris Ryan?

  I hear you.

• 33:14Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, has this show entered? I don't know what the zone is, but like, it's just in a place where I'm so happy to watch it.

• 33:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 33:24Andy Greenwald?

  I feel so eager to turn on the new episode. I'm always surprised when it's over, and I want more. And so I don't know if my normal critical faculties are even functioning at this point, because I'm enjoying it so much.

• 33:36Chris Ryan?

  Because you're so cold.

• 33:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well, my extremities are not functioning, my faculties possibly.

• 33:44Andy Greenwald?

  So it's so expertly done that within every episode, I just find a lot to enjoy, which is a kind of maybe a normie take, but that's where I'm at with it. But I feel like you, this might make for some good crossfire-style, old-school, confrontational podcasting. I feel like you're itching for a big swing.

• 34:03Chris Ryan?

  No, okay, so I've done my own version of self-reflection. My note here under... The episode is I guess I missed Dr. Collins and let me explain why. So Dr. Collins gets mentioned. This is Tracy's workforce character from the first season who disappears about three quarters into the season to go home after a personal medical emergency. And is not present for the mass shooting casualty event that the ER is dealing with, that the pit is dealing with and then is explained now in the, what was this, the fourth episode?

• 34:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:39Chris Ryan?

  The fourth episode that she has moved to Portland to

• 34:43Andy Greenwald?

  Couldn't be you.

• 34:44Chris Ryan?

  Adopt a kid and be closer to her parents, her family.

• 34:47Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, she's from there.

• 34:48Chris Ryan?

  Um, and it sounds like she's still in touch with some people from the hospital, but maybe not Dr. Robbie. And the mention of her made me think about whether or not she had a kind of, the character and the performer had a certain quality that I did not appreciate at the time, which was an authentic tension within the ER, which I think generally speaking, the first season had. So I went back to the first season. I kind of mapped it, the first few, four episodes of the first season versus the first four episodes of the second.

• 35:22Andy Greenwald?

  Did you make like a Kirk Goldsberg shot chart?

• 35:24Chris Ryan?

  No, I did not do a shot chart or anything, but I did note that I was looking through like all the people who are in the hospital right now and all the doctors. And you've got Dr. Alashimi, who has been banging the drum of AI, but for the most part, seems like a very competent, if direct manager.

• 35:43Andy Greenwald?

  And I think this is intentionally so duplicative. She's basically just parroting what Robbie says most of the time.

• 35:50Chris Ryan?

  Sure. And then you've got Ogilvy, who is a student doctor who's annoying.

• 35:57Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:58Chris Ryan?

  And Joy, who is another student doctor, who seems to not want to be a student doctor.

• 36:02Andy Greenwald?

  Not with Ogilvy, yeah.

• 36:03Chris Ryan?

  Uh, or just in general is like, oh great. I'm glad I paid $200,000 to learn how to do this or something. And then all of the patients. Especially in this episode, like, are pretty straightforward, like, I, yep, fix them. Not, not, not did you ever be like, don't fix this person.

• 36:22Andy Greenwald?

  It's not exactly Doctor House mysteries.

• 36:24Chris Ryan?

  Not even the mystery aspect as much as like, I was looking back at the first season.

• 36:28Andy Greenwald?

  You weren't moved by Whitaker being like, what if heart attack not in front, what if heart attack in back?

• 36:33Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I just think I have a little bit of agreement fatigue, like.

• 36:36Andy Greenwald?

  This is, this is a great take.

• 36:37Chris Ryan?

  The characters are walking down the hall saying things that I'm like, I agree. The people who are like, I need help. I'm like, you need help. And I, we can all see what's wrong with you, pretty much.

• 36:46Andy Greenwald?

  And, and when that narratively runs into, not against, but runs concurrently with the show's, I think, quite earnest, quite, uh, I mean, I agree with them, larger liberal political worldview.

• 37:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it's.

• 37:00Andy Greenwald?

  Like when they're like, we need healthcare and we don't have them, which is really important for a TV show to say. But when that's running in concert with everyone else agreeing, you're starting to feel a little, it's a little soft.

• 37:11Chris Ryan?

  So I think what I realized when I was watching this is that what, what I was wondering going into this season is how are they going to recreate the stakes of the first season?

• 37:20Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 37:20Chris Ryan?

  Without it being, without it turning into an episode of 911, where it's just like, you guys will never believe, but aliens are here, you know? And that actually shouldn't have been what I was worried about. What I should have been worried about was, how will they recreate the interpersonal tensions among the doctors? If they have theoretically been working together for another nine months or whatever it is. And now it's like Santos, she calls him fuckleberry at the end of the episode, but it's pretty much 80% nicer than she was in the first. Yeah, and they live together.

• 37:53Andy Greenwald?

  And the scene is pitched on his perspective, watching her leave, being like, my friend, my colleague is having some personal trauma, is in crisis.

• 38:01Chris Ryan?

  Yes. And Langdon, who had a kind of cocky swagger, which was obviously deflated in the first season, is now like, I'm just working the program and I'm being a good guy, you know?

• 38:10Andy Greenwald?

  Let's, let's, let's drill down on the Langdon thing.

• 38:12Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 38:12Andy Greenwald?

  Because first of all, you're the best at what you do.

• 38:14Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 38:14Andy Greenwald?

  You have really identified something that I think, despite my absolute simping for the show.

• 38:18Chris Ryan?

  I'm simping too. I'm just.

• 38:20Andy Greenwald?

  I agree with you.

• 38:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Andy Greenwald?

  And I think this is a really. Smart point to make. When we talk about how our Scott Gemmell and Noah Wiley and John Wells and the team behind the show are the cream of the crop in terms of just professionalism and expertise and doing things the old school way, we are talking about something that came up in our industry conversation last week, something that Mickey and Conrad and the people who make that show, in their more new school way, do not subscribe to, which is that over time, everyone becomes friends, not just interpersonally, but like the television show friends, in the sense that we just can't wait to see the people we like bounce off each other in ways that they historically do.

• 38:58Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 38:58Andy Greenwald?

  And conflict goes down and we are rewarded, our pleasure centers are rewarded, but sometimes the drama can suffer as a result. We are seeing that already, not just because you could excuse the fact that they work together and they're used to it and they have their rhythm, as evidenced by the scene in the ambulance bay, when they're talking shit about Dr. Alheshimi and it's like, "You shouldn't be doing this in front of an attending." And Robbie's like, "Well, you can say anything with me because we know each other." I totally agree. The one point that I was eager to come in and make is a version of this in regards to Langdon, because Langdon is the opportunity. And there's plenty of season to go. He's been back at work for three hours now, four hours now. There is

• 39:38Andy Greenwald?

  a softness and a restorative nature to his off-camera arc that feels potentially like a missed opportunity.

• 39:49Chris Ryan?

  Or perhaps we're just jumping the gun and there's a lot more to come.

• 39:52Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 39:53Chris Ryan?

  We still have not gotten the Langdon-Robbie cleared the air thing.

• 39:56Andy Greenwald?

  But one of the things that I've always found a little bit, not confounding, but intriguing, I guess, about the character and the casting is that Patrick Ball is clearly a very good actor. And he was doing Hamlet here in LA, like he's pedigreed and talented. He is also kind of, on TV anyway, like softly handsome in a way that he looks like a TV actor in this context.

• 40:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 40:19Andy Greenwald?

  Might be different in other roles, in other contexts. And I felt, and I was pleased in the first season when, after a few episodes of kind of blandness from the character of being like Robbie's friend, who's also good, there was some darkness.

• 40:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Andy Greenwald?

  And a little bit of a, you know, there was some, there was some road for him to travel down. Maybe it's a factor of the show's unique conceit, which is that they jump to a different day, that they could yada, yada the harder part, and we get him back. The show works better if something is cutting against the grain.

• 40:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 40:50Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's a really good point. And now, what's clearly coming to, will cut against the grain is the day's gonna go haywire in some way.

• 40:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 40:57Andy Greenwald?

  But interpersonally, it would be good to see that happen as well. And I think that they might, because the other thing I was gonna say is the real estate that they carved out in this episode and maybe the previous episode for character stuff, they do have to be artful in it, because they have to frontload it, because once the Ambo Bay starts filling up, there isn't, there isn't a lot of space for Robbie to sit with his pal, the hospital psychiatrist.

• 41:21Chris Ryan?

  Or Dr. McKay to be like, I'd love to go on a date to an art gallery with this guy, you know, and stuff like that.

• 41:26Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. So we kind of have to frontload that, which, which in the week to week experience might feel a little bit off, and they do a good job of hiding, hiding the ball, no Patrick. But I think it's, I think it's an interesting point.

• 41:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Andy Greenwald?

  And is it a casting question? Is it a who you're adding to the ensemble question?

• 41:42Chris Ryan?

  No, I think it's just sheer numbers. So now it's less time, Joy and Ogilvy probably take 3% or 5% of the time we would have spent with Mel, Santos, and Whittaker.

• 41:57Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm. And there's the new nurse, too.

• 41:59Chris Ryan?

  There's the new nurse, there's, and there feels like there are more patients with like, but there hasn't been quite the same. By this point in last season, I think there was the Xanax fentanyl overdose, there was the Robbie and Collins.

• 42:17Chris Ryan?

  Debate about whether to perform an abortion.

• 42:19Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 42:20Chris Ryan?

  There were a couple of things happening that were like, oh, and the brother sister trying to decide whether or not to.

• 42:28Andy Greenwald?

  That was big.

• 42:28Chris Ryan?

  Uh, enforce the DNR on their father.

• 42:30Andy Greenwald?

  Now, counterpoint, so far this season, we've had Michael Norrie's exposed asshole.

• 42:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes, and also like the, the family with no insurance that the girl is, I'll just go through the patients right now. So like, the insurance family, dad with diabetes, prideful mom doesn't want daughter to find out about the lack of insurance, daughter overhears docs talking about lack of insurance, starts GoFundMe.

• 42:51Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:52Chris Ryan?

  Eyelash lady, who is apparently also Patrick Ball's partner in real life.

• 42:57Andy Greenwald?

  That's nice.

• 42:57Chris Ryan?

  Shot out. Uh, and we learn about Dr. J, Dr. Javadi's social media, like alter ego persona.

• 43:03Andy Greenwald?

  Would you follow her?

• 43:04Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I try not to get my medical advice from social media.

• 43:08Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's probably wise. I think that's probably wise.

• 43:11Chris Ryan?

  I say that, my general practitioner is probably like, it's me, Dr. O.

• 43:17Andy Greenwald?

  But wouldn't he just, from what you said about him, he would just start like a soccer blog?

• 43:21Chris Ryan?

  We talk a lot about world football.

• 43:22Andy Greenwald?

  About the beautiful game.

• 43:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes, and then we talk a little bit about my body, you know, it's never been better.

• 43:28Chris Ryan?

  Eyelash lady, parkour influencers.

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 43:32Andy Greenwald?

  When you say it like that, it sounds silly.

• 43:34Chris Ryan?

  That was my, that was my shit this week, when, when that guy was like, I'll just pull this out. It's like, that's a fucking big L to take, dog.

• 43:41Andy Greenwald?

  Just be like, let me help you pull this giant shard of glass out of dude's back?

• 43:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the woman suffering from bulimia, and Louis, with the tooth and the stomach.

• 43:51Andy Greenwald?

  And the yard advice.

• 43:53Chris Ryan?

  Yes. The student who had an episode seems like it's got legs as a storyline, because there's also the, what did the security guard do to him? What's going on with him? They're about to do the spinal tap. Uh, and then the woman who comes back, possibly with MRSA, that's bad.

• 44:07Andy Greenwald?

  Oof.

• 44:08Chris Ryan?

  Uh, did they show her in the beginning of the season? I don't remember.

• 44:11Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna ask you. I, I didn't remember it, so it's possible that that's in there.

• 44:15Chris Ryan?

  Cause Langdon's patients have been quick, yeah.

• 44:19Andy Greenwald?

  For the most part.

• 44:19Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and then we have, I'm, I'm like, I really like Joy.

• 44:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:24Chris Ryan?

  Uh, not as, not, not the emotion, but the, um, the character on the show.

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:29Chris Ryan?

  And she's got blood exposure, uh, from, from puncturing her glove.

• 44:34Andy Greenwald?

  And the glass.

• 44:34Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and, and they have to give her a bunch of tests, and I'm very much hoping she doesn't get like hepatitis or something.

• 44:42Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's a good wish.

• 44:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Andy Greenwald?

  I think to your other point about like lower stakes conflict this season, like the

• 44:48Chris Ryan?

  Am I missing anybody?

• 44:49Andy Greenwald?

  No, I mean, the simmering tension, there's a one or two, but I think the simmering tension that is fueling Santos's return to, you know, the Bugs Bunny meme of like, Lord, forgive me, back to go back to the old me, is because Dr. Hoshimi is stressing the importance of documentation and paperwork.

• 45:06Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 45:06Andy Greenwald?

  Which feels relatively, I mean, I, look, these guys are medical professionals behind the show, involved in the show. If they say it's important, I believe them.

• 45:14Chris Ryan?

  I believe it's important.

• 45:14Andy Greenwald?

  But.

• 45:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but it is, I was having a hard time understanding her turn. Was that sheerly because Hoshimi had?

• 45:25Andy Greenwald?

  Threatened her status.

• 45:26Chris Ryan?

  Threatened her status?

• 45:27Andy Greenwald?

  And when we met, when we rejoined Santos this season, she's like, I'm gonna dull major, basically.

• 45:31Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 45:32Andy Greenwald?

  Can I, you know, one of my favorite parts of the episode was with, when the glass extraction happens and the surgeon is there and then they bring out this big syringe and Ogilvy is super fucked up already once, he's not fucked up, but he has fucked up, says, what's that? And the way Robbie says, and I'm gonna try to get the quote right, "It's a syringe full of hemostatic, fast-expanding sponges." That's the moment when I wanted the Thick of It writers to join the writers' room and be like, "A fast-expanding sponges, you absolute twat, you mentally impaired doughnut." Like, I just wanted some extra.

• 46:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 46:06Andy Greenwald?

  You know, I enjoyed that flex. But the jokes in general are better, like when he's like, motorcycle trips are Zoom therapy.

• 46:13Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 46:13Andy Greenwald?

  Come on.

• 46:14Chris Ryan?

  You thought that was a joke or you thought?

• 46:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's all right.

• 46:18Chris Ryan?

  And I think that that actually is a good segue to Robbie, which was, you know, a very obviously physician heal thyself storyline from the first season of him coming in, dealing with the PTSD of COVID, dealing with the loss of his mentor during that time period, feeling very underwater with hospital executives and Gloria and like all that stuff about their patient scores and their efficiency and.

• 46:49Chris Ryan?

  I, I, I think his sabbatical and his helmet thing is worth, worth watching, worth, worth keeping an eye on as like, oh, how could this kind of develop over the course of the season? But for the most part, he seems, he's, it was like, I think I missed him being in a really bad place, you know, and I, I don't know, I, I don't want that for a character, but I, but I think it's interesting television when they're like that.

• 47:14Andy Greenwald?

  But these guys have made lots of seasons of television and, and when you introduce stakes like they did in the first season to get attention, to make you feel how visceral and minute to minute, this circumstance, this workplace can be, you open the show with Robbie talking his colleague down from the roof a little bit, and then you put him in like the worst day of his life redux. And then you have to have, then you have to have that same character anchor this show for five, six, I won't say it because my kid, I can hear my kid saying five, six or eight years.

• 47:49Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 47:49Andy Greenwald?

  You have to be.

• 47:50Chris Ryan?

  Six, seven?

• 47:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. You have to, we're, we're a little over it. You gotta toggle.

• 47:54Chris Ryan?

  Like you?

• 47:54Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone like me on earth. Like when I got back from, from, from Potter, my kids are like, do they say six, seven in England? I'm like, oh yes, you've ruined the world. We no longer are in quarantine. They sure do. You have to be careful with the, with the character extremity dial.

• 48:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Andy Greenwald?

  Because a, in a movie, a character like Dr. Robbie ends the movie by like, I need to fix myself and drives off on a motorcycle, or I have recommitted to this as my course of action as a professional.

• 48:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Andy Greenwald?

  But the show is now stuck in a place of credible, emotional, emotionally honest and relatable people who every day do an impossible thing, which exists in the world. That is 100% realistic, but it is in terms of drama.

• 48:40Chris Ryan?

  And nowhere did I say this show is no longer realistic or believable.

• 48:44Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, no, no. But, but they're navigating something that is not realistic, which is serialized drama.

• 48:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 48:49Andy Greenwald?

  And that is an interesting thing to pay attention to and watch.

• 48:51Chris Ryan?

  The, the hospital show that shall not be named, that this show is not based on, uh, is, it would be an interesting experiment to go back and map that show against this show, because I think that this show is trying to do much different things with character.

• 49:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 49:07Chris Ryan?

  And much different things with time.

• 49:09Andy Greenwald?

  And can I, can I? Say zag and say a different opinion that I feel like hasn't been said enough, which is, thank God, this isn't a reboot of the show that's

• 49:19Chris Ryan?

  Chicago Hope.

• 49:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Chicago Hope. Yeah. First of all, Manny Patinkin is too busy.

• 49:24Andy Greenwald?

  But second, the character that Noah Wiley played before, when he was wearing a medical doctor's coat, was a child of privilege and had a very specific background and arc that is completely different from the way he is able to play Robbie with the freedom of creating an entirely new person without the years of, you know, baggage, good and bad from what he had been. And I think, I think it's really important that the show is trying to do something. And I think now we can give it the credit for being something different. Last note, this may be commonly held knowledge.

• 49:59Chris Ryan?

  I'll just say, just really quickly, like, my, my whole critique comes with the caveat of this is still among the best things on television.

• 50:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but I think it's, the show gives us such a unique opportunity to, to question and critique in real time because, proof of concept, this thing works.

• 50:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Andy Greenwald?

  This show works.

• 50:15Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:15Andy Greenwald?

  What's interesting, and I think why your, your, your point is well taken, is because what they are doing is so specific and so unique that we have a different way into observing their creative process, because they are solving for things in real time that other shows don't have to.

• 50:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Andy Greenwald?

  Such as where we put character beats because we are never leaving this hospital.

• 50:36Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:36Andy Greenwald?

  For example.

• 50:36Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:37Andy Greenwald?

  And so sometimes they get away with it when they hide the nutrition, like Seinfeld's wife put spinach in brownies, like, you know about that? This is all parent stuff.

• 50:46Chris Ryan?

  No, I didn't know about that.

• 50:47Andy Greenwald?

  Jessica Seinfeld wrote a cookbook where she was like, your kids need vegetables, but they don't have to like them, so make brownies with spinach in them.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  And now just, their kid.

• 50:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 50:55Chris Ryan?

  Is Bari Weiss's like lieutenant.

• 50:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's, it's great. It's, you nepo babies, stick together, you know? I'm sure that the group chats you guys are on are pretty rich with observations about how to

• 51:08Chris Ryan?

  Nobody knows our struggle.

• 51:09Andy Greenwald?

  Communicate with audiences, you know, in the digital era.

• 51:12Chris Ryan?

  I have to work that much harder to have movie reviews that people take seriously.

• 51:17Andy Greenwald?

  You do. And you've really, you've done it, by the way.

• 51:20Chris Ryan?

  Ah, yeah, for sure.

• 51:22Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think it's telling that you haven't done rewatchables remains of the day, because then it would be a little bit too close to like your father's patch.

• 51:28Chris Ryan?

  I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.

• 51:30Andy Greenwald?

  I've been waiting by the phone.

• 51:34Andy Greenwald?

  This may be common knowledge, but I only recently learned this because I did feel bad that I didn't know the name of Nurse Jessie, who is stepping a little bit more into the camera, into the spotlight this season. And I was, I'll be honest, like, I was thinking of that character this weekend because it felt Alex Preddy-like, like that this is just a guy who works hours in, you know, a thankless job. And so I was Googling him lately, and this is the most, shout out to Simon Williams and Wonder Man, the most like LA is a real place sort of story I can imagine. This guy, Ned Brouwer, who plays Nurse Jessie, moves here to be an actor, gets a little bit work as an actor, gets work as a model, plays music with his friends, is the drummer for Rooney.

• 52:18Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:19Andy Greenwald?

  The pop-rock band led by Jason Schwartzman's younger brother, Robert.

• 52:23Chris Ryan?

  But was Jason Schwartzman ever in that band?

• 52:26Andy Greenwald?

  He was in Phantom Planet.

• 52:26Chris Ryan?

  That's right. Okay.

• 52:29Andy Greenwald?

  Drums for a while, acts for a while, sees the writing on the wall, not really, maybe this isn't the career, goes to school and becomes a nurse. And he is actually a nurse.

• 52:39Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 52:39Andy Greenwald?

  And then when the show is being put together, someone, because it's, you know, it's a relatively small community, or he sees the audition for it or whatever.

• 52:46Chris Ryan?

  Was he like a medical advisor on the show at all?

• 52:48Andy Greenwald?

  No, but I think that the, the, the spirit of the show has been to bring in, to sprinkle in real people. And, you know, I think people who are paying more attention to the show than even, we, we watch it, but I think the super fans have probably maintained lists of like, these people are actually nurses, these people are doctors. And yeah, he's married to Sarah Jane Morris, who was on Brothers and Sisters, who made an appearance on the show as well.

• 53:12Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 53:12Andy Greenwald?

  Past season. I just like, I, I like the artful way the show is doing this, where it's bringing people who are competent in multiple fields.

• 53:19Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 53:20Andy Greenwald?

  But I thought it was cool. This guy's actually Contributed to the world of nursing and medicine and you can, I don't think it's an accident that like, I just, when he's in the background of scenes, I was like, that guy seems like he knows what he's doing. I didn't learn his name, which was on me.

• 53:36Chris Ryan?

  No, he definitely seems like he's been in those rooms before.

• 53:38Andy Greenwald?

  Nurse Jesse.

• 53:39Chris Ryan?

  Um, all right. Well, we'll be back on Monday to talk about A Night of the Seven Kingdoms and Industry.

• 53:45Andy Greenwald?

  Will you give me some temperature updates of your core, your extremities?

• 53:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, man.

• 53:50Andy Greenwald?

  I'll try to struggle throughout here.

• 53:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing my Boston people.

• 53:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:56Chris Ryan?

  The Boston winter is something that, I mean, we went for rewatchables last, the last time, it was like cold, but like we were walking around. It was like 30s, 40s. And now it's aughts.

• 54:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:08Chris Ryan?

  So, we'll see. Thank you to Kaya and Kai. Uh, I gotta catch a plane. We'll talk to you guys on Monday.

• 54:13Andy Greenwald?

  Safe travels.

• 54:14Chris Ryan?

  Hopefully.