Robert Eggers

Robert Eggers is in a lane seemingly all by himself. His first four films as a director have earned legions of fans and rightfully so -- THE WITCH, THE LIGHTHOUSE, THE NORTHMAN, and now NOSFERATU. He joins Josh to talk about it all including the variety of influences on him and why he's not directing a STAR WARS film anytime soon. SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to Quince.com/happysadco for 365 day returns and free shipping! UPCOMING LIVE EVENTS 1/15 -- Sam Heughan in NYC -- ⁠Tickets here⁠ 1/20 -- Adam Scott in NYC -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠ 1/23 -- Michelle Yeoh In NYC -- ⁠Tickets here Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! To watch episodes of Happy Sad Confused, subscribe to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Josh's youtube channel here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins now.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  I'm Josh Horowitz and today on Happy, Sad, Confused, Robert Eggers is here. As far as I'm concerned, he's four for four in his filmmaking career. The Witch, The Lighthouse, The Northman, and now Nosferatu. Fans of this podcast are well acquainted with that film by now because we've had Lee Rose Depp on, we've had Nicholas Holt on, we've had Bill Skarsgard on, we've had Aaron Taylor Johnson on. So it's really destined to be. We can't do this, Robert, without you, the man that made this all happen. Welcome to the podcast for the first time.

• 1:35Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:38Josh Horowitz?

  Congratulations, truly. I love this film. I love all of your work. Talk to me a little bit about, first, like where your head's at after this? This has been a long journey. For those that don't know, this has been in your head in different forms for a long while. So is there a sense of relief, of exhaustion, of satisfaction? Where are you at right now in this process?

• 1:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, certainly relief and satisfaction. Like, it was nice. I finished the movie in early April.

• 2:12Speaker 04

  And it came out in like Christmas in North America and in January 1st, most of the rest of the world. And and I and so I and so I'm not like as exhausted as I might have been if it had just like rolled into the release. So it was nice to have the time to get into it. But I but yeah, I mean, it's it's it's out there and I'm I'm glad I was glad to finally share it with the world.

• 2:41Josh Horowitz?

  Well, and not to mention, look, obviously, your work has always been critically very well received and commercially by and large, though. I mean, I know the Northman and I was a huge fan of the Northman for the for the record. And commercially did fine, but like I know expectations were probably. We were all hoping you were probably hoping for more. So I mean, I mean, coming into this, is there like a fear of like, you're not going to go into director jail if this doesn't succeed. But you're but this this probably does feel like I would imagine, again, a sense of relief like this is a commercially viable thing that I have made too.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it has, it's been, it's been doing very well so far. Like, it's kind of unprecedented and quite exciting. And and I I mean, I think the thing about that. Fact that it is doing well in the box office at the moment, that is, is that is.

• 3:40Speaker 04

  So vindicating, I suppose, is that is that like I had total freedom on this movie.

• 3:47Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  And I hope that that this helps other filmmakers, you know, get to do the same thing.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  You know, because it is not always the case.

• 4:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, rewarding the uniqueness, the idiosyncratic, the the vision as opposed to watering it down in the hopes that you're going to reach 10% more people. Here's proof that you don't have to, you can stick to your guns and there is an audience out there for it.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  No, it's crazy. I mean, like in, in, in the UK, we were like number one in the box office, even with all like, you know, kids movies and stuff. It's insane.

• 4:26Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing, amazing. So, um, can we talk a little bit about, about the history of, of the near production kind of like misses for this? Cause I know this almost went into production at least a couple different times. Like, how close were you to actually getting on set, full steam ahead on Nosferatu in the past?

• 4:44Speaker 04

  I mean, the most recent time that it fell apart, uh,

• 4:49Speaker 04

  Jaren Blaski, my cinematographer, had moved to Prague and put his daughter into, to school there. And so he ended up living in Prague for that year without the movie getting made.

• 5:02Josh Horowitz?

  Real, real life consequences to art. Yeah.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, Craig, Craig, they threw up the production designer and Lynda Mure, the costume designer were also there, but thankfully they just went home. Uh, but yeah, that was close.

• 5:14Josh Horowitz?

  So has, has the script essentially remained unchanged though in the different incarnations?

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Not unchanged, but, but it has, it's like fundamentally, it's been the same. Like once I had a script, uh, it's, it's been fundamentally the same. The sort of like, how much are we on the ship has kind of shrunken and large, shrunken and large over the years. Willem Dafoe's dialogue, uh, kept getting cut, cut down, uh, because I, I didn't, I think as with the first time when, when I was developing it with the studio, like there was so many questions by, by the studio executives that the like, that the exposition got like quite massive and it was also very enjoyable to write dialogue for, for Willem Dafoe. But that's something that, that we kept getting, uh, more and more precise and, and honed over, over the years.

• 6:06Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that sounds, sorry, I was gonna say, that's, that sounds like an irony of like, studio notes actually saying the audience doesn't need as much. Like you don't, you don't need, needs to over explain. That's actually refreshing to hear.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  Well, no, but I, well, basically, it was my going back and cutting it down.

• 6:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so it was from your end. Sorry, I had it reversed. No worries.

• 6:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I do, but I think, but no, but, but I think that, you know, even, yeah, I, I think, I think there's always kind of a question of how, of how much, and, and it was also kind of, kind of interesting when we did,

• 6:43Speaker 04

  audience test screenings, some older viewers were sort of like, I don't really need all this stuff, but maybe the kids do.

• 6:52Josh Horowitz?

  Worried about their dumb children. They're not gonna get it. I get it, but yeah. Um, I know, I've heard you talk, maybe facetiously over the years about like, you know, Murnau's ghost almost saying, give it up, maybe this isn't meant to be at these kind of false starts. Um, did you feel at, at some point that like, the universe was telling you just to give it up? Like, how close were you to just saying, maybe move on?

• 7:17Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I'm, that wasn't facetious. I mean, I, you know, I don't know, I don't know if it was like actually, Murnau's ghost, but, but as far as like signs from, uh, the world or the other world saying, stop, that seemed quite clear to me, you know?

• 7:36Josh Horowitz?

  Um, one, one of the joys of this is like, we've all seen innumerable vampire tales, and I, and I love All Stripes. I love like, when John Badham directed Frank Langello in that classical sense. I love the, the Coppola. I love it all. Um, do you find something to love in all? I, I, I, yeah, I was gonna say, so did you find something in all of them, even if you have your preferences?

• 7:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, abso- absolutely. I mean, um, and I think the cinematic influences of this movie, for the most part, aside from Murnau and, uh, Todd Browning are, are, are not.

• 8:15Speaker 04

  Most or mostly not Dracula or vampire movies.

• 8:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  Uh, but certainly in the script writing phase, I, I, I watched every single version, you know, and, and there were helpful things, you know, in Dracula. Like nineteen seventy-two A D, you know, honestly, like there were, and, and, and I've said this a lot, but, but, but Dracula Dead and Loving It was probably among the most helpful because Mel Brooks points out everything idiotic about the story and, and all the kind of traps and pitfalls so that, you know, um, but yeah, I mean, I, I love Christopher Lee. I love, I mean,

• 8:58Speaker 04

  Dracula's Daughter is quite a fantastic, uh, you know, Universal movie. Uh, there's, yeah, there's a, and, and, and the Coppola and the Herzog, while I tried to not watch them or while I did not watch them for the ten years of, of trying to make this film, I watched them a bazillion times growing up, you know?

• 9:20Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Yeah. And I, and I know that like it's also when it hits you and where it hits you, right? Like that Coppola film hit me like when I was in that sweet spot of a teenager and I know that, and one of the exciting things I would imagine from your perspective is that's gonna be this film or a generation for a lot of teenagers who kind of first experience like a true vampire tale. Ten years ago, they had Twilight. Now they've gotten Nosferatu.

• 9:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I think it's been what like it, it's obviously incredibly. Uh, like, like yeah, you, you, you, we, we know when you're recognized by your, by your peers is a marvelous feeling. Uh, but I, but I think, you know, teenagers who like with black metal t-shirts or whatever are, are the people I'm the most interested in.

• 10:14Speaker 04

  Exciting.

• 10:15Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, no, I get it. They're the obsessives. You're an obsessive. They're the obsessives and they're gonna just drink this up. Um, so you, you worked, you worked with Rob Pattinson, famously a vampire, obviously in the Twilight Saga. Did you ever, did you ever talk vampires or anything with him? Cause obviously Nosferatu was on your mind, even when you're making The Lighthouse.

• 10:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, Rob's pretty allergic to vampires. I mean, you know, it was kind of interesting. Like when the, when, when there was the like beard for Nolan's next movie being like a 1920s vampire movie. I was like, really? Rob's doing it. I, I, I neglected to text him to reach out, but now I know that it was all a lie.

• 11:01Josh Horowitz?

  There was no subversive bent for you, of an idea for you, like, let's cast Edward Cullen as Nosferatu in my Nosferatu?

• 11:09Speaker 04

  I mean, obviously there's subversive appeal in that, but I think we ended out with the right Orlok.

• 11:16Josh Horowitz?

  You did, you did. Bill was amazing in this. And when I talked to Bill, you know, he talked about how, how he was obviously cast in an earlier incarnation in a different role in it. And he mentioned in passing that Willem was even talked about at that time, Mads Mikkelsen. These were all roads you went down pretty far.

• 11:36Speaker 04

  Really let it, he really let it loose, didn't he?

• 11:43Josh Horowitz?

  Is that true? Did you go pretty far down the path with those guys for your Orlok?

• 11:48Speaker 04

  I, you know, it was, uh, I, I, no comment.

• 11:56Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough, fair enough. But we, we got to the right Orlok. We got to Bill. So what, what was the turning point? Cause you had him in mind for the hunter role, which is obviously a much different kind of a, a character. What was the turning point when you thought you saw Bill in this role?

• 12:11Speaker 04

  It was, it was, uh, it was, it's, it's, it's chapter two. Um, he, he, there's a scene where he plays it as a, as a middle aged, or Pennywise is a middle aged man and a clown, and it had a, it had a real weight to it and a real believability to it and a darkness to it. And I thought, maybe he could do it.

• 12:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. I, I have to say, I feel like not since Tom Hardy did Bane have I been as obsessed with a voice as Bill Skarsgård.

• 12:44Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and I'm glad to see like the internet kind of agrees with me. I feel like people are really like this voice is in our brains now forever. Was it a journey to get there? I would imagine, I mean, I know you had very specific ideas for the look. Did you have very specific ideas for the, the sound of Orlok?

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean, like, the screenplay is probably available for for reading now and and the the voice is very carefully described in in the script as as you know, you know, the way it sounds in the movie. And Bill sent me recordings and and that he was working on, and I would say a little bit of this and a little bit of that. And then eventually, he ended up working with an opera singer to to coach him on getting his voice as low as possible with also as much as much breast support and strength as possible.

• 13:34Josh Horowitz?

  And in terms of the look, I know you've talked about this a bit, but I mean, were there different iterations? Or was it kind of fully formed? Once you kind of like researched, oh, this is what this is what a Transylvania nobleman would look like? Let's go with that, like?

• 13:49Speaker 04

  I mean, I did it. I did a digital painting that is quite close to what we came to. But obviously, there was there was work and David White, the prosthetics designer, like, is, you know, like, you know, Milos Forman has said, I mean, a lot of people have said different versions of this, but like, a director is a little bit an actor, a little bit of costume designer, a little bit of DP, blah, blah. And then he hires people who are better than him at all these things. Right. And, you know, and David White is, you know, a supreme magician when it comes to prosthetics. So I shared David White my painting and a lot of other stuff. And we had a lot of discussions. And and then he did several sculpts that he sent to me. And then I would say, kind of like with Bill, like, oh, a little bit of this one,

• 14:34Speaker 04

  the nose, the bridge of the nose from that one, this ear lobe from this one. And, you know, and then we kind of put it together. And then when it was all sort of designed,

• 14:47Speaker 04

  it had to go on to Bill. Adjustments came from that. And then Florin Lazarescu was the Romanian consultant, like, the Romanian folklore, folklore consultant. He also wrote the Romanian Dialogue and the Ancient Dation, which is, which is the language that Warlock speaks in his magical incantations, which is a dead language that was spoken by the ancestors of the ethnic Romanians. But Florin said,

• 15:20Speaker 04

  Remember, in the folklore, Strigoi are often described as being red-faced. And I was like, fuck, you know, and I'm looking all my books and seeing like, red-faced, red-faced, red-faced.

• 15:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 15:35Speaker 04

  So then I said to David White, like, we've got to figure out a way for blood to be like pooling under the skin, at least like after he feeds. Uh, you see it like when Hutter throws the lid off the coffin, you, you see it. It's more pronounced on the, on the corpse that the, uh, Roma, uh, characters dig up. But actually, it's interesting, cause like in the firelight, it, which is quite red, it kind of cancels out the look. And in the moonlight, it kind of gets rid of it because it kind of, everything was sort of black and white in the moonlight.

• 16:16Speaker 04

  So you don't actually see it a lot, cause then in the scene with the sunlight, uh, smack straight on him. The, the more we had it, and o- over-painted or under-painted, uh, with a lot of detail on the silicone. It, it, because of the bright light on it, it looked fake. So we had to dial back the detail in order for the makeup to look less artificial. Uh, so that's more than you needed to know?

• 16:43Josh Horowitz?

  No, it's, no, I, I, I love it all. Was it, was there ever a, a thought in, in going black and white? You obviously did that for White House.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  Uh, no, no, no, there's a good black and white, no, it's for us too.

• 16:56Josh Horowitz?

  It's pretty good, yeah. Yeah. Comparisons will happen anyway, why invite more? Right? No, totally. Um, is there an image that goes back like furthest in your brain? That you're just shocked and pleased as punch that it actually exists now permanently cinematically that you've created? What goes back the furthest in your mind?

• 17:17Speaker 04

  I, I tell you honestly, it's really, it's really hard to say. I will, I'll, I'll deflect and, and say that I'm very pleased with the atmosphere in the, in, in the cemetery, uh, in, in, in the last act, like it, you know, I really.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  I've seen a lot of movies where they end up having to shoot the cemetery in with sunlight and it just fucking ruins it. And I'm so glad that we got full cloud cover and the skeletal trees and the fog and the Victorian morning garb. It's a nice Gothic funeral that I think,

• 18:01Speaker 04

  you know, Roger Corman would be proud of and so would Boris Karloff.

• 18:05Josh Horowitz?

  Nice, nice.

• 18:13Josh Horowitz?

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• 19:37Josh Horowitz?

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• 21:06Josh Horowitz?

  I've got a cashmere hoodie that is honestly invaluable and actually makes me look like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to fashion, and that is a miracle. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. It's now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you've heard about them, you know what to do. Let them know it was happy, sad, confused. That's the best way to support our show. So talk to me if you'll indulge me a little bit. Going back influence-wise, when you were a kid, if I talked to like 14-year-old Robert

• 21:48Josh Horowitz?

  Eggers, what's the, who are the filmmakers' films that you were consuming over and over again? What were you just really obsessed with around that time in your life?

• 21:58Speaker 04

  Around that time, you know, Tim Burton, and I think it's kind of, I was actually kind of crazy. I was watching... On one of these flights, I threw on Batman Returns and, and the, and like snowy Gothic atmosphere of that movie is, is quite like shockingly similar to a lot of stuff we were doing here, which was something that I never really considered at all, uh, when we were.

• 22:31Josh Horowitz?

  And it's got Max Shrek in there, too.

• 22:33Speaker 04

  It sure does, yeah. But in Wayne Manor, like, doesn't look a hell of a lot different than Grunavolt Manor, I've got to say. Everything's not falling apart. So that was kind of interesting.

• 22:45Josh Horowitz?

  No, I saw, I saw that first Batman film. I skipped school. I was 13 years old and yeah, what was it? Anton First, I think, was the production designer. It was just like that, that just, it was, it was, it's just transported you. And I guess around that time for you, he's already, yeah, it's Batman Returns, then he's into like Ed Wood, Mars Attacks, Sleepy Hollow. That's, that's a sweet spot. That's glorious Timberland.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, I also like, as a Shakespeare dork, like, I was, you know, very interested in what Kenneth Branagh was doing. And that was like a lot of ways I was able to like see these works. Um, and, uh, and Terry Gilliam. Uh, I was very into Terry Gilliam. Uh, and I was kind of like just sort of discovering that like David Lynch existed, um, you know?

• 23:39Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, Twelve Monkeys. What's your Terry Gilliam? What's your?

• 23:44Speaker 04

  I think, I think, yeah. I mean, what's my favorite Gilliam? It's a hard one. I mean,

• 23:53Speaker 04

  there is something really tonally great about Fisher King, like never getting too, like, like living just on the edge of like not too schmaltzy, you know, like, like even at the very end when it's like, you know, so sweet, they like fall into the like a whole bunch of like porn videos, you know? So there's always something to kind of like undercut the. The schmaltz in a tasteful or distasteful way.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. I also, yeah, I also think back to like the bleakness of the ending of Twelve Monkeys. Like, again, how do, how do you accomplish that? And I think that was like a universal film, actually, at the time. Like, that's, that's amazing that that film exists.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, also, like, the, I, I, I watched the making of Twelve Monkeys whenever I'm like testing a movie to feel a little bit of comfort.

• 24:49Josh Horowitz?

  The hamster wheel one? Yeah, right? Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 04

  Just like, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Well, you know, what you watched, watching Lost in La Mancha and like Heart of Darkness. Like, when I'm in production, it's always makes me feel like things could be worse.

• 25:11Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, no, I heard you talk about not only another podcast, I think you were talking about, um, not only films that influenced you, but like the Star Wars to Jedi making of Doc. Like, those, those things can be as inspiring to a young person as the films themselves.

• 25:25Speaker 04

  You know, I didn't, I didn't go to film school and, and so, uh, the, the, you know, special features for, for movies were like, you know, a huge way for me to kind of wrap my mind around things. Like, you know, obviously, many of them only scratched the surface, but like, the sort of something

• 25:48Speaker 04

  unexplained, but like, you know, an image of like, how the dolly track was set up, you know, in some kind of situation, even if they're not talking about it like at all. Like, and like, they're, you know, the actors are just talking about how great the experience it was. But I'm seeing like, okay, pause, like, what's going on there? You know, like, I hadn't been on a film set, like, you know, and so, yeah.

• 26:12Josh Horowitz?

  I have a very basic kind of just like life question for you. Like, before The Witch, were you making a living as a filmmaker? You obviously were working on shorts, you were directing, you were being costume designer, production designer.

• 26:25Speaker 04

  I was, I was making a meager living, uh, like, I was making a meager living, um, with, like, art department and costume department, uh, both.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  You know, in, in, in low budget short films, that would pay very little. But I would also, I mean, I did, I, I, I did plays, I did dance pieces. But I would also work as a set carpenter or a stagehand. You know, I repaired curtains for like a theater downtown and, and did upholstery. Cause I was like one of the few guys in the crew who knew how to sew. You know, and I like when I find like in my very, in my late twenties, I was an assistant for a more successful

• 27:17Speaker 04

  set designer in, in the print world. And so that was, that was kind of nice when I finally started working for him. Cause those jobs were short and they paid at the time for me like enough to kind of get by and take a little time to focus on, on writing. But I would do like whatever like Tommy Hilfiger stuff and like Kenneth Cole catalog shoots, like, you know, not very exciting, but I, you know, I learned a lot and I would also say this guy.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  We were doing, we're doing one of these Kenneth Cole things and like sometimes when they do the catalog shoots, they, they don't have, they haven't totally figured out like what the product is they're selling. So you have these kinds of samples that are like, sometimes they don't even like match each other. And he had to like, had the, the, these ugly flip flops with like a little heel on them or something. They were so heinous and, and Matthew like took these flip flops and made like a beautiful sculptural, like composition

• 28:32Speaker 04

  with these flip flops. And I kind of, and I said, you know, like you don't really have an excuse to make something shitty.

• 28:38Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:38Speaker 04

  You know, it like, you know, those are the ugliest fucking things I've ever seen in my life. And this dude like turned them into something that is like, has some attractiveness to it, you know? It was something I tried to stick with.

• 28:54Josh Horowitz?

  By this time you get, by the time you finally get on set for The Witch, did it feel like it was a make or break moment? Like I'm gonna pour it all out on the field. Cause most people don't get one shot at this. And if this doesn't click, this is it.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, but you do that. You try to do always do that even for with the flip flops, right? But but but yes, of course, of course, you know. I mean, one thing, you know, any movie that like or a commercial or whatever that took place in the woods. I would immediately say yes to. So I had like a lot of experience like being on set in the woods and. And and that was very helpful, but certainly. The witch was, yeah, it was it was a challenge and it was scary and you know my but honestly, my biggest. Hope and dream was that it would be it would get good enough reviews that I could make another film. That was really my like ultimate. Goal aside from trying to make the best movie I could make.

• 29:56Josh Horowitz?

  Did you well, I think among the many shocking things for I think a lot of us had the sensation when we saw The Witch that it was like. You seemed like a fully formed filmmaker right from the start. And maybe that's again, because you're you're succeeding and failing kind of like, yeah, on Tommy Hilfiger shoots and we don't see it like you're doing the work. Just we're just not seeing it, but also like and that goes to. The way it's put together, but even the performances and a lot of like, I think, great crafts people as filmmakers don't know how to work with actors. At the start and you've got some really great performances right out of the gate. What accounts for that?

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Like, I mean, I grew up.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  Performing in theater and directing theater and the only thing that I have training in is acting. So like. So, you know, yeah, so I I have the language to to work with actors because of of of that. And and I also. And so but because what happened was is that like I also people have asked me a lot like. Does working in the art art department and and with costumes like has that changed the kind of films that you make? But, you know, being interested in Gilliam and. Tim Burton and also like, you know, and like and and also.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  You know, Merchant Ivory films like, you know, the, you know, and and whatever fucking Lord of the Rings like.

• 31:23Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  I you know, movies that took. You somewhere else were what excited me and I was always into. Do making costumes and and and sets. So so basically, when I was directing theater off off off off Broadway, I was doing the sets and costumes. Uh, because I loved to to do it and I was impassioned about it. And then what happened is that I realized I could make a living doing that. You know, uh, uh, but but you know, but but it was really the acting that I had the training in. Uh, that I think with The Witch. What set me off in great stead uh for for then being able to

• 32:04Speaker 04

  work with the actors that I worked with in the lighthouse was that when it finally got financed, like, uh, I was able to cast who I wanted to cast. And and so I so I also wasn't like saddled with a weird situation that didn't work. And so I was looking for with with Ralph and with Kate, like really exceptional actors with really exceptional faces, but also people who are like good people. Uh, so that like we we dealing with the children, it was gonna be like a healthy and good environment. And I had the freedom to like, you know, had I needed a certain kind of name, I might have gotten a great actor. I might have gotten a great face, but I might have not had that

• 32:48Speaker 04

  element, which was an important element in making that film at that scale, at that budget, at that on schedule, in that location, you know, that was a big part of it, too.

• 33:01Josh Horowitz?

  And ironically, the fact that those faces, for the most part, weren't recognizable to the audience, I think, in the end, put you in good stead. It felt you you were able to lose yourself more as opposed to if I love Tom Cruise, but I don't know if Tom Cruise would have been the right fit for.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I and I and I think I think that the I think that I think that, you know, RT features, they understood that that was the the case.

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• 34:35Josh Horowitz?

  I know you talked in the production of The Lighthouse how Willem and Rob came at the work from much different perspectives as actors. I mean, Rob, it sounds like enjoys a little bit of self-flagellation, a little bit of like just putting himself through it just to get him to the right place. Was that something that, I don't know, that you had to kind of restrict him or enable him to do? Like, what was your role in kind of like getting Rob through that process?

• 35:03Speaker 04

  To let the actors do what they need to do. I think that like, good actors understand that you need to submit to the directors will like, in order to make the film work. But also you need to, like, the director needs to recognize that different actors have different ways of working and that needs to be respected also. So you kind of see, you know, and but Rob likes to push as much as he can within the box that you put him in.

• 35:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  And that's, that's great, you know, and it was great for the performance and, you know, and, and, and the fact that they came at. Their approach for the characters from very different ways was also helpful in the character dynamics and the and and and the struggle between the two characters. So it's all it's all good.

• 35:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it worked for that particular kind of story totally. So I was telling you before, I'm a big fan of The Northman, and I know that was your still is your biggest production to date. And but it sounds like you, you know, you're you're you're always very open in saying, like, things can be hard, and that's OK. And it sounds like The Northman was a hard production. And I don't know if you're talking about the actual production or the post process. Can you give me a sense of sort of like, why the The Northman tested you in ways that other films didn't?

• 36:22Speaker 04

  I just, you know, it was, it was basically a massive scale jump that like, was an incredible gift to do. And Regency was incredibly gracious in allowing me to use my heads of department, you know, across the board. And I don't think it would have worked otherwise. But it was a big jump for all of us. And so I like, I think that there is a feeling of like, of like, you're constantly just like, trying not to drown and like, get and get through it and doing it our way. Like, I can see why movies like that are done,

• 37:05Speaker 04

  like, multi camera, with like, a whole lot of coverage, and you figure it out later. Because like, when you have all these elements, it's just like, it can feel overwhelming. I think, having said that, though, having done it, and then doing Nosferatu, which in some ways was kind of a larger scale, even though it wasn't as big of a budget, it didn't have battles and things like that. But like, like, I now feel comfortable working in that world. So I don't feel the same sense of like, save me, as I on the on the Northman. But then, I mean, I think I did a lot of whinging about, like, not having final cut and all this stuff, which I sort of regret.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  That I I know I regret that sort of like crying about it because it is just sort of like that's how movies are made like sorry like.

• 38:00Josh Horowitz?

  Part of the deal. Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 04

  Like grow up. So but but it but it was something that I hadn't dealt with before and also the movie was so big that there was like a tremendous amount of it felt like a tremendous amount of pressure. And so it was just like a different thing. That said, like doing Nosferatu and having like complete control was a lot like more enjoyable. Wasn't to say the film was like a walk in the park like it had a like it was.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  It was a hell of a lot of work and and we deliberately challenged ourselves and pushed ourselves beyond what we were capable of to try to make the best film possible, but having support makes it a whole lot better, you know, when

• 38:54Speaker 04

  you know, I go to the line producer's office, it's nine AM and say Bernie. Like, I know we're already a little couple of days behind here, but unfortunately I have to reshoot the crypt scene today. And he says, you know, that's absolutely not what I wanted to hear, but we're going to figure it out. You know, we're going to figure it out. Like, that's great, you know?

• 39:19Josh Horowitz?

  You you've achieved this wonderful like thing now in these four films like you know, you're working on your own terms like you're making the films you want to make. You're obviously writing or co writing these stories that are very personal, important to you. Um, have you closed your mind to like you can hopefully continue on this lane forever? Or do you open your mind to like working someone else's sandbox at this point or for for you? Are you like? Don't even bother with that meeting. I don't I'm Kevin Feige. I respect what you're doing, but I'm good over here.

• 39:50Speaker 04

  I mean, it's I suppose it depends on what it is. But I mean, technically, you know, Nosferatu is like an IP movie. So

• 39:57Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 39:57Speaker 04

  Like, I think it just sort of, it would sort of depend on, it would sort of depend on what it is.

• 40:03Josh Horowitz?

  Got it. Is there, is there a Star Wars story within you somewhere? Is that part of your soul still in there?

• 40:10Speaker 04

  As much as my son would like it, I don't think so.

• 40:15Josh Horowitz?

  Why is that? Just because even though you loved it as a kid, it's just not your sensibility now?

• 40:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:21Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  I think it would, I think it would be hard. I think it would be hard to bring what I'm particularly good at to that uh, world because it also like it exists with its own rules and that needs to be respected to like to do the best Star Wars you can do. And I don't think that they like work with what I'm particularly good at.

• 40:49Josh Horowitz?

  Fair enough. What um, what do you watch nowadays in terms of contemporary film? Are you kind of all over the place?

• 40:58Speaker 04

  Um.

• 41:01Speaker 04

  I mean, the stuff that generally like excites me the most is are still old films that I'm like find out about and search for and and

• 41:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  and whatever. I'm sure that's not a big fucking surprise. But I, but you know, but I, I watch what's out, you know, I, you know, I The Substance, Anora, The Brutal List, they're great, you know, uh, Girl with the Needle is is under appreciated and extremely good. Um, you know, I, I watch pretty much every horror movie that comes out, like even if it's crummy, um, you know, uh,

• 41:44Josh Horowitz?

  Do you bristle at kind of like that, that like quote unquote elevated horror like thing that's been put on some is horror, horror? Does it matter? Like what?

• 41:53Speaker 04

  I, I mean.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  I don't like, you know, the, all of these labels are, are like unimportant aside from that it's a way to talk about things. So I think it's, I think it's like fine. Um, but I think that there has been while, while there's plenty of slawky horror movies still made it like, like it's become like Todd Field said, like the, the, the new noir, like, you know, of, of our, of our era, the genre that is like the, you know, the most explored, but, but I think it's because it, it, it, you know, as long as it's under a certain budgetary level, it usually does, it usually performs.

• 42:40Speaker 04

  So, or filmmakers working in a, like a commercial space, it, it allows them like a place where they can explore interesting topics through genre. And I think it's the filmmakers who are doing that that tend to be put into like elevated horror. And I think that that's fine. I think, I mean, actually, I think it's great. You know, I mean, I like, like I, you know, I wish that there was more opportunity for like American commercial filmmakers to do like, you know, what European filmmakers can do if they want to do it. Uh, but, uh, you know, but at least there's something.

• 43:22Josh Horowitz?

  It's back to the, uh, the flip flops. Work within your box and just as long as you have the creativity within it, you can make something great.

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 43:30Josh Horowitz?

  Um, sci fi, any interest? Do you have a sci fi idea in you?

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Uh, I do. But I, I don't, I don't like, like I, I don't know. I think, I think

• 43:43Speaker 04

  with, um,

• 43:46Speaker 04

  with the, with the, I mean, you know, if you look at last year, it was still like sequels and. Remakes and horror movies under a certain budgetary level that did well. And so I think that my weird sci fi movie is not anytime happening soon.

• 44:05Josh Horowitz?

  I do, it excites me on this level because we, you know, you talk so much about, you know, you love the historical accuracy, the detail and making, you know, the, this is going to be the most authentic Viking movie ever. And like, how do you apply that to sci fi? Or some realm where there, you can't really be accurate in a way. I guess you can in some way.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, I, I'll, I teased enough.

• 44:33Josh Horowitz?

  So to say, there's an answer to my, my, my, my question. It's just not coming today, basically.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:40Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough. And just, no, it's all good. It's all good, man. Um, as we wrap up, just looking ahead. Is Rasputin still something you want to come back to as a television project? I know there's also The Night, which has been out there. Is that a script? That's a completed form that you want to mount at some point? Are these projects still on the docket?

• 45:02Speaker 04

  Uh, I, yeah, I mean, there is, yeah, I have a lot of, I have a lot of scripts and a lot of projects. And I, you know, and a lot of things that I'd like to do. And, you know, I mean, I think Rasputin is probably

• 45:17Speaker 04

  not happening anytime soon, although it'd be hard to get the plate shots in Russia. Um, so I don't know. I don't know. But, uh, but, but it's, it's, it's so dependent on what the studios have the appetite for. You know what I mean?

• 45:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  But, but I have a lot of things that I'm passionate about.

• 45:41Josh Horowitz?

  Excellent. Well, it is evidenced on the screen. I'm a, I'm a big fan of your work, sir. You're doing great, great stuff, man. Um, I hope this wasn't too painful. The thousandth conversation you've had on Nosferatu.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  Not too silly.

• 45:54Josh Horowitz?

  Not too silly. He was warned that I was silly, guys. Am I silly? I don't know. Um, it's good to meet you. Hopefully one day in person. Congrats again on the film and best of luck on everything, man.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 46:26Speaker 06

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