The Vikings Get Rammed, Dallas’s Next Coach, and Bad NFL Owner Habits With Cousin Sal and Peter Schrager

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Cousin Sal to discuss the Rams dominating the Vikings and what kind of impact this game will have on Sam Darnold's future. They then talk about Sean McVay's strong coaching résumé (2:54) before guessing the line for Rams-Eagles, and reacting to the Cowboys "parting ways" with coach Mike McCarthy (18:53). Then, Bill talks with Peter Schrager about an early start to the NFL coaching carousel, the best and worst open head coach positions, and more (35:15) Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Cousin Sal and Peter Schrager Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Look, it's not that confusing. I'm Rob Harvilla, host of the podcast 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, except we did 120 songs. And now we're back with the 2000s. I refuse to say aughts, 2000 to 2009. The Strokes, Rihanna, J Lo, Kanye, sure. And now the show is called 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon, the 2000s. Wow, that's too long a title for me to say anything else right now. Just trust me, that's 60 Songs That Explain the 90s, colon, the 2000s, preferably on Spotify.

• 0:36Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th, and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer's storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply.

• 1:20Bill Simmons?

  Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. 1-2-3 Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. We're also brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network. I don't have a new rewatchables coming for you tonight, at least. We're gonna try to do a mailbag on Wednesday.

• 2:03Bill Simmons?

  Hopefully, the winds are not gonna be bad on Tuesday and Wednesday here in Southern California. We are keeping our fingers crossed that all the bad stuff is behind us and we can start thinking about recovery and start moving forward instead of looking backwards and looking over our shoulders here. So, keep us in your thoughts. I mentioned in the Sunday podcast that we did with Sal that we're gonna try to figure out a good list of charities and things to donate for, for people who want to help out all the people who are affected out here. I'm gonna have that by Thursday because I really wanted to get the right list going and make sure that I trust everybody that I'm recommending because there's been some, some pretty crazy fraudulent stuff happening out here. So, I want to make sure

• 2:46Bill Simmons?

  I have everything in a trustworthy state before we pass that along. Thanks to everybody who listened yesterday. Thanks to everybody who's about to listen. The top of the pod is just me and Sal reacting off Rams-Vikings, doing guest on Lions for Rams-Eagles. And then we're gonna talk about the Dallas Cowboys thing. So, that's the first segment. And then, so Peter Schrager and I, we recorded on Tuesday and it was gonna be the second part of the Tuesday pod and I was gonna do an NBA Power Poll right off of Nugget-Seltex on last Tuesday night. And then, you know what happened in California, ended up postponing the pod. But I really liked a lot of the stuff that Schrager and I talked about. We were making a lot, it was all coaching ownership stuff and we were making predictions for what we thought was gonna happen with the coaching hires. But we were talking about the model

• 3:28Bill Simmons?

  of ownership and just where things are going on that front, not just in football, but in professional sports. And I really liked what we talked about. So, it's a week late. This is a short pod. I just thought we'd throw it at the end. Why not? So, there it is. That's gonna be the second part of the podcast, a week old conversation with Peter Schrager. But I swear it's good. Okay, that's the pod. Let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 4:13Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this 8:20 Pacific time, Monday night. This is a quickie guess the line segment coming off Rams Vikings. The good news, the Rams, an emotional win for, uh, for Los Angeles. I guess you could feel it coming in the hour before the game with their emotional, uh, performance of the national anthem. The Rams played great. They played out of their minds and, uh, and yet I leave this game wondering what the hell happened to the Minnesota Vikings. Where we were two weeks ago versus where we are now. It's one of the most stunning eight, nine day collapses I can remember of a football team. I really, they, these guys won me over. I really genuinely believed in them and they fell apart.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  The whole, uh, division won me over, the NFC North. I went into this, I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna key on this NFC North. The Packers are gonna be good. The Vikings are gonna go far or as far as they can before they run into another team. And now it's like, they're looking like the SEC a little bit for you college fans out there. And yeah, I'm with you. The Rams came out fighting, proud of this team. They brought their A game. Like they had them together, right mindset, but moved them basically, it felt like the game was in Minneapolis. Like, uh, you know, they went to the sideline reporter and she's like, yeah, a lot of Vikings fans. I'm like, well, that doesn't seem fair, but they did a great job. But yeah, you're right. Like you and I were like, sign Sam Darnold, easy two weeks ago, right? I feel bad flip flopping so much, but Jesus, what the hell is going on the last 10 days?

• 5:40Bill Simmons?

  It's not a flip flop. He had a whole body of evidence for the whole season where it looked like, for whatever reason, he was this year's late bloomer star QB. And he had just come off that huge win over the Packers when he has one of the best games of his career. They have the awesome NFL Films video in the locker room after, right? When they're all waiting and Darnold comes in and his teammates mob them, they, they pick them up. They show Kevin O'Connell, like almost like near tears watching it, great speeches.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Well, that seems like it was, yes, now that you brought that up, like that really seems like it was not long ago. That's crazy.

• 6:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, cause it wasn't, it was two weeks ago. And it just seemed like, man, this is such a great story. The late bloomer Sam Darnold. And then he absolutely sucked in the Detroit game. But I was willing to chalk it out to, hey, it's a bad game. This team's 14 and 3. They have a great track record. Detroit was fired up. They were home. But they couldn't block the Rams. And the part that doesn't make sense to me, I was a little worried about their protection heading into the game, just because of what it looked like against the Lions. But the Rams don't have a good defense. The Rams defense was 26th on a DVOA for defense. They were the seventh worst defense in the league. It's not like this was, you know, the 2000 Ravens. And they looked like the 2000 Ravens. So it was just a complete collapse.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was supposed to be a rebuilding year, at least for the Rams defense. You're right. Like, and then they get Jared verse and Kobe Turner plays out of his mind his second year and Kobe Durant tonight, anyone named Kobe.

• 7:13Bill Simmons?

  All the Kobe's.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  All the Kobe's. And it makes you think, was Aaron Donald ever good? No, it doesn't make you think that.

• 7:20Bill Simmons?

  Big legacy hit for him. Should he go to the Hall of Fame now?

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Aaron Donald, Sam Darnold, maybe. Like, the guy's hemorrhaging money every time he drops back to pass. Could he have opted out of the playoff game? Not just, not just his contract money, our money, because we had them on teasers, the Vikings and everything. But I guess that's, that's what we get, I guess. I don't know. But as far as signing him again, we have to, we have to say no now, right? If you're the Vikings.

• 7:46Bill Simmons?

  We talked about, yesterday, we were talking about QBs you'd rather have than Herbert. And we were going down the list. And I said to you, what about Sam Darnold? And you paused, which was my reaction as well. And you were like, let's, let's wait to see what happens tomorrow. And of course, what happened was the worst possible game for him. I was looking, so some of the stats for the Rams heading into this game. They were 21st in the league in sacks. They were 28th in the league in QB hits, 26th in tackles for losses. And they were 6th in QB hurries, right? So that's the one thing where like, oh, I can kind of see it. The Vikings were 23rd in sacks given up, 20th QB hits, 24th QB hurries, 24th tackles for loss.

• 8:30Bill Simmons?

  So there were signs that their offensive line might not be that great. But nothing could have prepared anybody for what happened. Like, he was just under attack. And he reverted back into old school seeing go Sam Darnold. It was like Jets Pat's Sam Darnold. And now you mentioned the money thing. I don't know what you'd do if you're the Vikings.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  And we're gonna kill Sam Darnold. And we already have, and we'll probably do another 10 minutes doing so. But yeah, I think he was sacked nine times. He was sacked six times in the first half. And like the next gen stats, like can kind of now tell you which, which sacks are the quarterback's fault? I think like five or six of them were his fault because anything over like four seconds is the quarterback's fault. So.

• 9:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, we have next gen stats and we also have Trey Aikman, who can tell no lies when he's watching a quarterback performance that he's not enjoying that much. And he just couldn't a few times. He's just like, I, Joey, he has a good pocket there. I don't know what, I don't know what, why that happened the way it did. Because the pockets, if he steps up, he's got plays. Um, I don't know. He just, the moment got too big for him, which was what happened last week too, in the Detroit game. So now there's this whole domino effect now. Because what the Lions did to Minnesota last week, and we're like, well, Lions are back. Their defense is back. But then you watch the Vikings camp block again this week. Darnold stinks again this week.

• 9:54Bill Simmons?

  And now, so when you look forward to guess the Lions, we have this Rams game. I have no idea what to make of their performance that by like, is their defense for real? Is it not for real? What's going on there? And then the Lions, who looked so awesome last week. And we're all like, their defense, maybe it's back. They had a bye week. Now you see the Vikings can't block and it's like, well, maybe it's not back. Maybe Washington will be able to move the ball against Detroit. This just made me more confused about round two, so.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  It made me confused about round two. It made me confused about which quarterbacks are good. If the, the Herbert thing you brought up and like what Minnesota, this is good for the fans though, right? This kind of opens things up. That would have been boring if the Vikings just re-signed Sam Darnold, gave him a big number, but they're like top seven in cap space. I think like 100, they, they, they took their medicine with the dead cap with Cousins and Danel Hunter, I think this year, but they're like a, I think they have like 160 million free and they have to start McCarthy now. But yeah, you're right. Going forward, I don't know what it means for any of these teams.

• 10:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, can't, they can franchise tag Darnold though.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yes, they can do that.

• 10:53Bill Simmons?

  It would just be for a big salary, but I.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  How much is that then? Is that 40 or?

• 10:58Bill Simmons?

  It's not worth it. It's definitely not worth it. I think if Darnold plays well against Detroit, they lose to Detroit by like three and then they play the Rams, the Rams squeak it out, but he's fine in that. He's looking at at least the Baker Mayfield money, which I think was like three for a hundred range. Now, I had a whole losers winners thing I wanted to do. Um, he was, he was the biggest individual loser. Surdi says 41 million for the franchise thing. So he's the biggest loser because I don't know what the free agent money is going to be for him.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Well, let's see, how much did you and I lose on that Vikings adjusted? I mean, I, I guess he's the biggest loser, but we have to.

• 11:39Bill Simmons?

  I had a break. I, I did the anchor, the anchor parlay with four games and I ended up just splitting them. So it's just like all that work for nothing. I lost on the Chargers, lost on the Vikings, one on the other two.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  But I was thinking Steelers fans, Raider fans, Saints fans.

• 11:57Bill Simmons?

  Sam Darnold is now in their life with rumors, right? Those are the three teams. I, I don't think the Giants, just because of the Jets pedigree, I, I think they would stay away, but Steelers, Raiders, Saints, I think are three possibilities.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  I like that. I don't, I don't know why I say him Raiders.

• 12:10Bill Simmons?

  Also, they could franchise him for a year and do the whole, hey, we're not sure. Is J J McCarthy is even going to be ready for September? They showed Daniel Jones a couple of times, like he's an option. We've seen Daniel Jones. They're not gonna, it can't be Daniel Jones.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  I just don't know. What do they, there's one way to look at it is we're not gonna do better than 14 wins. Right? I think we can get us to 14 wins, but it's just this whole January thing that seems to be a mess. The other way is to look at it is let's see what we did with this McCarthy with our first round pick. Let's see what we got out of him.

• 12:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they obviously believed in him. They took him really high. He had bad luck with an injury, but before the injury, they were all excited about what he looked like in the preseason.

• 12:54Bill Simmons?

  So Donald's the biggest loser, but the, the runner up and maybe even the winner is the Vikings fans. Who just, you know, I've mentioned my buddy Jeff a couple of times. He's just, he's in I told you so mode. He's like, I told you, this is what we do. This is what, like, he's just, this is preordained. Not only that they're gonna lose, but it was gonna be complete embarrassment. This was, this team won more games than any other Vikings team ever, except for the 98 team that went 15 and 1 and lost in the NFC title game. The 69 team went 12 and 2, lost the Super Bowl. The 73 team went 12 and 2, lost the Super Bowl. 75 team went 11, 2 and 1, lost the Super Bowl. The 17 team, 13 and 3, they lost that NFC title game in, in, in Philly, whatever it was.

• 13:39Bill Simmons?

  Was Philly or Atlanta?

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But this was one of the best Vikings teams, at least from a regular season standpoint of the last 60 years. And just goes out ignominiously, like they couldn't even score 10 points.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is bad. Again, it's like, it's tough. And the coaching, they got out coached too. Like the guy who's gonna win coach of the year, Kevin O'Connell, got out coached. It didn't take a lot. I was kinda, I would have liked to have seen them call that Stafford play differently. I know you and I having money on the Vikings would have also, but with that forward pass thing, the thing that was returned for a touchdown. They called it a fumble initially and then they said Stafford. I, I, I think you have to do a little more than pretend you're sprinkling salt on eggs. It move your, your hand's gotta go a little more forward than that. I mean, it's.

• 14:26Bill Simmons?

  It should be like a 30 yard penalty when you do that. If you're going down on a sack and you just whip the ball, it's like beyond an intentional grounding. I personally think it should be, I, I think that should be a fumble when you're just dumping the ball because you're gonna take a sack. But you're not even dumping it anywhere near anybody. It was the key play of the game because it felt like the Vikings were going to have momentum. Their defense in general, though, the Rams played it perfectly. They came out in the first quarter. Stafford started out nine for nine. They could anticipate every single thing that was happening. This was the people that were making the case for the Rams heading into this game was not only did they win earlier in the year, but Stafford was good against the blitz. He's good at, he's such a smart QB. He's good at reading stuff. And everything got borne out. I thought the Vikings were able to run the ball better.

• 15:12Bill Simmons?

  But in general, like the 26 DVOA defense should not be dominant. I know they had a couple of games when guys were missing, but for the most part, like that makes no sense to me. This is a team that got carved up multiple times this year, you know?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Never could get Jefferson going, you know? Let's see a one-on-one play to Jefferson. Addison drops everything thrown his way. It's, it gets ridiculous. And again, at least half those sacks were Donald's fault.

• 15:38Bill Simmons?

  So winners, J.J. McCarthy.

• 15:41Bill Simmons?

  Sean McVay. Another great win. He's got eight playoff wins now, plus the Super Bowl. They made the playoffs in six of eight of his postseason. He's only been a coach for eight years and

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  just coached the pants off of Kevin O'Connell, who's going to win a really awkward coach of the year award in about, I don't know, whenever they have that NFL honors thing. Killed them. Not only killed them, but oh, the, the, the bikes were down 18 with 10 minutes left and were running the Donovan McNabb, Pat's Eagles, Super Bowl offense. Just long huddles before every play and nowhere to see it all. It was like, they really quit. It was borderline Roberto Duran, no mas, no mas.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Right. Buck, even Joe Buck and Aikman were like, does this team know they're down 18 when they're running on second and six?

• 16:28Bill Simmons?

  Sixth quarter?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:30Bill Simmons?

  What are you guys doing?

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Very strange. Yeah. I, I don't know. Yeah. McVay, McVay's a gigantic winner and so are LA football fans too. I mean, really just to get this team ready, bringing their pets out and their family and bringing them out over there. And now it's like, I mean, we'll talk about the next game against Philly, but they're flying home to LA. They don't know if they're going to be able to practice in their facility, depending on the air quality. And then they have to go all the way to Philly. It's going to be interesting to see if they can keep this momentum going.

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  Rams fans, huge winner. This is such a likable team. This was not supposed to be a team post Aaron Donald that, you know, they, when they were one and four, they were talking about, could Cup be, I never believed those stories, but there were trade rumors about Cup and could Stafford be potentially available? And all of a sudden now they're heading into the second round against a pretty, pretty beatable Eagles team. Hench made a good joke, our buddy Hench, he said, the, the crowd was so good because Glendale is a shorter ride for the Rams fans than SoFi Stadium. Really good, really good inside.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Is that a joke or is that accurate? I think that's, I think that's, I think he's being serious.

• 17:40Bill Simmons?

  Six hours to Glendale, five hours to SoFi.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  It's close.

• 17:46Bill Simmons?

  Losers, the Eagles.

• 17:51Bill Simmons?

  I, I, it went from, oh man, I don't want to see the Vikings to, oh Jesus, this Rams team, they're just cagey. They're like one of those old boxers. They've lost a couple of times. They're like 37, but they might be 40. And they just kind of know what to do in the ring and you don't want to fight them.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  They don't want a lot, they don't win a lot of these matchups, right? They don't win the coaching matchup. I don't know. I guess they win the running back.

• 18:16Bill Simmons?

  They don't win coach or QB. They lose both of those.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  QB is going to pass for 148 yards and you know, he's going to get pushed forward a couple of yards here and there. I feel like the defensive intensity for the Rams, you know, the receivers are not off on the sideline reading, uh, Duszkiewski. So I, I don't know. Like I feel like, I think it's really tough. This is a tough matchup. And nobody wants them to win.

• 18:39Bill Simmons?

  Outdoors, Philadelphia, probably not warm. Stafford in cold weather.

• 18:49Bill Simmons?

  There's some playoff manifesto stuff with this too. There's always the, one of the best playoff manifesto rules that I have is the round two team that looked a little too good in round one. Everybody's a little too excited about them. The Rams definitely qualify for that and conversely. The Eagles not looking that great around one. So there's, and I think that's going to be reflected in the.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  But this opens up some nice, and we talk about narratives all the time, like that NFC championship is going to be fun either way. You get golf against Stafford, right? As long as the Eagles are out, I think it's fun. You golf against Stafford, or you get Jaden Daniels against Stafford and the LA, you know, the LA team and the nation rooting hard for LA, whatever, against the rookie quarterback who's come from nothing. Um, yeah. So just step aside Eagles.

• 19:35Bill Simmons?

  Did you hear from any Eagles fans today who were like, you guys were a little too hard on us yesterday. We won a playoff game. Oh, you did? Cause I didn't at all.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 19:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. The Eagles fans I heard from were like, yeah, you guys nailed it. I was fucking pissed after that game. We won and I'm still mad.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there, there's always that, but the, you know, Eagle fans tend to hate, you'll always find a few of the just going to hate you for saying anything about them, good or bad. That's what it was. Yeah.

• 20:02Bill Simmons?

  We're going to take a break and then we're going to do guest lines Eagles Rams and we'll talk little cowlets.

• 20:11Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike and the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off Plus as the official beer sponsor of the NBA. Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're

• 20:55Bill Simmons?

  courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US residence 21 plus begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details.

• 21:20Bill Simmons?

  All right, guess the lines. You already beat me. The big question, the media was talking all day. Are you even gonna play your starters here? What, you're in the week 18 Kansas City Chiefs thing? Do you just sit everybody, try not to get hurt? Do you try to give me false hope? Do you do the Buffalo Bills where you tank the game to make me feel better about where I am heading into next week? I'm gonna be down one for the first time since 1892.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Wow, that's a long time. I thought before that. Uh, well, I'll let my words speak for themselves here. LA at Philly. 3pm Eastern, Sunday. I'm gonna guess, uh, Rams by 42 and a half. So that's my official guess, because it doesn't matter.

• 21:58Bill Simmons?

  I think, I think I'm gonna win this. I have Eagles minus 6 and a half.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  All right, you got it. Uh, you know what it was? 6 and a half, it went down to 5 and a half. But you are closer. Wait, let me see. Yes, you are closer.

• 22:11Bill Simmons?

  What did you have?

• 22:12Speaker 02

  42 and a half. No, I actually, in, in, in real life, I would have said like 3. I, I don't, I, um, I guess they're just counting on this just being too much, too much of a story for the Rams.

• 22:24Bill Simmons?

  So we ended up, I remember looking at the round one lines on like Wednesday, Thursday, whatever. Like, just looking to distract from any possible way, like where the lines at? And I remember thinking like, I know we're gonna have three underdogs. I have no idea who the three underdogs are gonna be that actually advanced. And it ended up being Houston, Washington, and the Rams. Two home teams, two home dogs, which used to be like a playoff, always take a home dog, don't even think twice. And then the Washington team in the, in a game that was, I could see either of these teams winning these games, why not take the points? So it all makes sense in retrospect, but on Wednesday, I was like, I could see all six favorites winning.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  And those were the three shortest underdogs, right? They're all between 2 and a half and 3, right? So, yeah, you wouldn't have even, so our money line parlays still would have hit and

• 23:15Bill Simmons?

  I thought the Broncos with the plus 8 and a half, 9, whatever it was, had a chance to keep things around. And in the first quarter, it's in the way, and then the Bills pulled away. The Packers were another one.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  For 6 minutes. Yeah, yeah.

• 23:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Um, so it turned out to be the three short odds, two home dogs, and we ended up three underdogs advancing round one.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  And the AFC is the same, exactly the same as last year, right? These are the same four that advance. Houston, Kansas City, Baltimore, Buffalo.

• 23:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, we talked yesterday. I was saying that that Baltimore game that's in the Tic Tac Zone.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:48Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was gonna flip. It was yesterday. It was Buffalo minus one and a half. I predicted to you, I think it's gonna flip. I think Baltimore is gonna be one and a half. It already happened. Baltimore's one and a half. So since we did it yesterday, Baltimore's minus one and a half, Buffalo. Philly is now minus five and a half on Fanduel. Detroit is minus eight and a half against Washington, and then KC is still minus seven and a half. And everybody and their brother is teasing them with Ohio State.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, and they're probably gonna take two of those three mid-range favorite, five and a half, seven and a half, eight and a half, and put them together, probably the Saturday games, right? No, but people want to win money Saturday and then go over Sunday. So that, that's gonna be a popular money line parlay, Detroit and Kansas City. But as far as Buffalo goes, I, you know, and I might even end up taking Baltimore, but that is entirely, entirely disrespectful to Bills. They, they need, can we get Louis K. to step in as their publicist? They need a new publicist. If that frickin' team can't lay points at home, I don't care who they're playing. They're damn good. They can't be getting any point in a half. Ridiculous.

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  I think it goes down to the Ravens had five losses and you could easily just examine all of them and be like, ah, they actually should have had one loss.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:02Bill Simmons?

  They were the number one team in DVOA. They look like they've gotten better as years gone along, especially on defense. Defense was the big hole with them the first 10 weeks. It flipped. And I think it's the right line. And I'll, I'll be honest, I've already put money on Baltimore.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  I believe you.

• 25:19Bill Simmons?

  I grabbed it because I was worried it was gonna get to like minus two and a half, something like that. I, I just think they're, I think Buffalo's defense is gonna have a lot of trouble stopping them, but we'll see. I'm gonna look at it more. There's gonna be some narrative that nobody believes in us. If, if that starts drifting around Buffalo, I'm gonna get nervous.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Do you think, like, I know this is a regular season vote, but we saw Kevin O'Connell like, ah, and you said it now it's gonna be a weird Coach of the Year award.

• 25:43Bill Simmons?

  It's like the Dirk Nowitzki 2007 MVP. That was the all-timer. He'd already been knocked out of the playoffs. So they're like, here's your, here's your trophy.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Could there be an executive Goodell decision or whoever makes this decision, give the voters their votes back? Like, all right, we're gonna give you one more game.

• 25:57Bill Simmons?

  Nope.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  You wouldn't do it?

• 25:59Bill Simmons?

  It's a regular season award.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  I know, but if one of them throws four interceptions.

• 26:04Bill Simmons?

  He was the best coach of the regular season. Now it's like Sam Darnold was so bad those last two weeks. Maybe that emboldens his case.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right. That's true. How did he get it done? Yeah.

• 26:13Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe we fell for Sam Darnold.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Well, that's a fricking, that's a great division, aside from what the Bears put forth, and they won 14 games. Like, it's hard to get around that.

• 26:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand it. There was a number of times during the season when I felt myself being like, you know what? I'm starting to believe in this guy. And then it was that Arizona game, week 13. He lit up Atlanta. He lit up Chicago. He had a really nice win at Seattle. And then that Green Bay game, they won, they won nine straight games and he was getting better during the streak. And he really, I believed. I feel burned.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  You know why? Because we go on the podcast and it's not fun to just keep telling people, all right, just be careful with this guy. It's not fun. We have to take a side.

• 27:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, maybe we should do the podcast and just be like, Chiefs, Ravens, Bills, Eagles, Lions. Like, we just should have never wavered from those five teams.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Right. I know. And so, yeah, grander scale, probably just should take the Chiefs the rest of the way. But yeah, Sam Darnold is 27. We saw what he looked like at 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, but we probably should have stayed with that.

• 27:26Bill Simmons?

  I really like Sam Darnold. Like, I really thought that video of how much his teammates loved him, I was in. I was like, man, this guy finally, he's like a rescue dog. He finally found a home. And now he might be your new New Orleans Saints quarterback. Poor Sam. Before we go, so your team fired, or didn't fire? What was the word? What did they do to Mike McCarthy? Broke up?

• 27:48Speaker 02

  So bummed. Yeah, they, you know, there's just not going to be any negotiations. They parted ways. Yeah. I'm in the middle. I know you tried to get me to hate McCarthy, but the very few wanted him to come back. Very many wanted him to be gone. I was somewhere in the middle. I appreciated that he won 12 games, three years in a row. That's pretty great. I feel like it's like getting a new iPhone. Like, you know, the, the one you have is old and shitty and it's got like a crack in the front and then you have to charge it every three hours, but you're also a little worried about the new one, right?

• 28:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. What if they have some bugs I didn't realize?

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Are my apps gonna transfer? Is my email gonna sync up?

• 28:25Bill Simmons?

  I don't like what they did with the photo albums. I like the photo albums the old way.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so if the photo album is gonna feature fricking Deion Sanders, I gotta be honest, I, I might be out. I may have to tap out on this team for a little.

• 28:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, stop it. You're not doing that. You sound like fantasy. Fantasy is like, fantasy is always, fantasy is threatening to quit the Jets now. He quit the Knicks a couple of years ago.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  It's, I need a break from the clown show. Give me Ben Johnson, Aaron Glenn, Tomlin, Zimmer, Flores. I don't care any of them. Deion comes in and that, first of all, he sucks. He really does. If you watch, I've watched college. His clock management, scheming as bad as anybody else's, right? And he was 13 and 11 as a coach for Colorado. I'm not even gonna count Jackson F and State. You and I could go six and six coaching with good assistants. 13 and 11. We're gonna sign this guy and pay him $8 million.

• 29:15Bill Simmons?

  I'm psyched that could go six and six. That's great.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, congratulations.

• 29:19Bill Simmons?

  Lot of man experience, lot of video game experience. I, so listen, I don't have a dog in this race other than I love talking Cowboys with you, especially on this podcast. I don't understand what he was doing the last 12 months, Jared Jones. Where they brought McCarthy back after, it just seemed like after the playoffs, he was out. It was so, it's such a humiliating loss. They're like, no, bring it. Let's bring him back. They bring him back. They do all the weird contract stuff. There's multiple points in the first half of the season where it seems like they're just gonna fire him. They don't. They string it along, even if the season's over, they've lost Dak, they string it along the whole year, they lose out on multiple guys who might have been interesting hires.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:00Bill Simmons?

  And then they part ways with them. I don't get it. It's just, it's like, did he just not want to spend one more penny on a coach?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  He doesn't. He doesn't buy guys out.

• 30:10Bill Simmons?

  Because Jared Jones is cheap.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  He doesn't pay out, with the coaches, he doesn't, he doesn't pay out. First of all, in the real world, you'd be, everybody would be fine with this. Like, people should be able to play out their contract and that's it. You have to give everybody an extension.

• 30:23Bill Simmons?

  But it's more like he missed out, Belichick and Brable were the two best guys and he missed out on both of them.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Everybody's saying Belichick might have, listen, he might not have taken that job. Maybe he'll even turn that job down, even though he has it in North Carolina. But, you know, I feel like, no matter what, whenever they announced the head coach, my reaction, I would be, this is gonna be minus 2,000, that my reaction's gonna be like, eh, that's gonna be it. No matter who they name, unless it's Deion, it's gonna be a lot more vitriol than that. But it's gonna be, it's gonna be a Ron Rivera type, isn't it?

• 30:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, worst case scenario is Jason Garrett.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  That is terrible.

• 31:00Bill Simmons?

  That would be the funniest, like funniest outcome is Jason Garrett or Billy Bob Thornton and Landman would be the two funny, the funniest outcomes. Deion, I think, would just be a disaster. I think it's already dicey enough to just grab a guy from college and make him an NFL head coach, not having been in the league at all against anybody, but to, especially do it with somebody who's a pretty green college head coach. If you said, I also don't really believe that story. I, you know, I don't think it's hard to research, like, who broke the story? Do they have time?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Something tonight, right?

• 31:34Bill Simmons?

  Are they maybe represented by the same marketing firm as the person who, you know, it's, there's, there's some red flags in general. I don't, it seems like it's good for both sides to pretend they might hire Deion. I don't think they're gonna hire Deion. And if this blows up in my face, so be it.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I pray you're right, because it's, it's, like I said, I don't know, is this a shit show or a clown show? Let's maybe make a poll. Let's put it out there.

• 31:57Bill Simmons?

  What's crazier to you, Belichick? Turning his back on UNC. After already going down the road, bringing people in, doing recruiting and then being like, oh shit, the Cowboys job is billable. Good luck, everybody. Thanks for everything, North Carolina. Is that crazy or is it crazier just to hire Deion Sanders?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Um, well, coming from who? Like Belichick, I don't think that's a crazy move from him. I would expect anything from him at this point. I think it's kinda shitty.

• 32:25Bill Simmons?

  He stabbed the Jets in the back that, what was that in 2000?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  It wouldn't be good to do to Lombardi. You would have to bring Lombardi back. You'd have to put him on a podcast with Van Lathan or something. I don't know what you would have to do.

• 32:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Lombardi, yeah. We're here for Lombardi if that happened.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  But, um, I, I don't, I don't think anything's worse than the Deion thing. I'm sorry. And then what is, so what, would they have to get Shador too? They trade, what do they do? They trade, they trade to the Titans. Does Dak go to the Titans and then more picks and then they get Shador? This could be a complete disaster.

• 32:56Bill Simmons?

  Can I gently nudge back here?

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 32:59Bill Simmons?

  For, for content? The Cowboys hiring Deion is the fucking best. That's like the best. That would be the number one thing people talked about the entire offseason. Deion in Dallas, is this gonna work? People like you would be like, here's why this isn't gonna work. Other people like, no, you're wrong. This, and we would just be off. It would be, if you're gonna have an eight and eight, eight and nine, I guess eight and nine now, cause we have 17 games. You're an eight and nine team. You may as well have Deion as your coach and not, you know, random Coach X. Ben Johnson?

• 33:31Speaker 02

  I'd be out of the content. I'd be out of the content business. So it wouldn't be good for content. I mean, for me, it wouldn't. I'd be out.

• 33:38Bill Simmons?

  Ben Johnson does nothing for you?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  No, it's fine. That's good. Someone like that could deserve it, right? I think Aaron Glenn, right? Flores?

• 33:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, Aaron Glenn, I think is actually a really good coaching candidate.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:50Bill Simmons?

  But it seems like he has, there's some Jets buzz with him now.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  I've heard that too. And, uh, you know, Kellen Moore.

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  He played there, like.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:00Bill Simmons?

  If you're the Jets, like you wanna get somebody who's actually been a part of your franchise and is willing to reconsider going back to it versus what most normal people's reactions would be to that of, I never wanna see you guys again. I can't believe I was on the Jets.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  How about no coach? How about no coach? Like Jerry, there's no GM. Why not, no, try no coach. See, see what happens there.

• 34:21Bill Simmons?

  Maybe Jerry just wants to act after his Emmy award winning performance of Landman. Maybe he doesn't care. Maybe he's got the acting bug. I, when I mentioned it to you, you didn't believe me.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  You were right. You were right. I have to hand it to Jerry when he does something good. That was phenomenal. The, the cry, whatever, the fake crying, really good acting. Does it make like older, like does, uh, Sir Anthony Hopkins look at that and be like, you son of a bitch? You're making it, you're making a mockery of our, our business, our craft.

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, it is like if Anthony Hopkins just like coached the Niners one year or one game and did like, had a really good quarter, just popped in and called some plays and was like, do this, do this, do this. Um, I'm trying to think of any other candidates. I think Vrabel would have been great, but we took him. Pete Carroll?

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Pete Carroll they talk about.

• 35:09Bill Simmons?

  You've kind of moved sideways with McCarthy where you have this experienced veteran coach who's had success, who won a Super Bowl in the past, but is in his mid seventies.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  I'm really okay with anyone but the clapper or Deion Sanders.

• 35:24Bill Simmons?

  That's it. So, so your do not, your D N H do not hire list, this, the clapper?

• 35:29Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 35:30Bill Simmons?

  Dave Campo? You wouldn't want Dave Campo back.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  I, I'm ready to be somewhat disappointed either way, but it's gotta, it, it starts with those two at the top. Not that he's being considered Jason Garrett. I mean, Jason Whitten is actually, uh, his, his name has been thrown out there. It's actually, it's actually up there. If there are some, you could look at odds some places. He's like third.

• 35:49Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:51Bill Simmons?

  Was Aikman in any of the odds or no?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  I didn't see Aikman. No, he's happy being upset in the booth. He's not gonna move on.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  Would you rather have Deion Sanders or Daniel Kalason as your head coach?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Daniel would be fun.

• 36:05Bill Simmons?

  Hey, buddy!

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Daniel and Jerry drinking buddies?

• 36:09Bill Simmons?

  No practice today! Come here, girls. Look at, look at the cheerleaders brought you guys. Isn't this nice? They made brownies. Lemon shots for everyone. Our friend Daniel, our old executive producer, he would be really, he would definitely bring the, uh, the seventies Cowboys back.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yes. Maybe, maybe in the nineties.

• 36:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, man. So you're you're in the dumps with this Dow situation.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  No, we just have to get off this Deion thing. And I think he made a statement today. And so I think you're right. They might be playing each other against, but he said Colorado is my home. Whatever. These guys are all liars anyway, but he said he couldn't leave. So.

• 36:47Bill Simmons?

  I'm here for Colorado for at least the next five minutes.

• 36:53Bill Simmons?

  All right. All right. Let's wrap it up. That was good. We went 32 minutes.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  Two more than scheduled. So next time I see you will be Sunday night. It will be after the fourth playoff game.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, we go a little early, right?

• 37:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Bills Ravens. We'll go a little early. We'll go hopefully live on YouTube.

• 37:11Bill Simmons?

  And try to get that going. Try to get it up as fast as we can. All right. So good job by you.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  All right. Good job by you, buddy.

• 37:19Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the

• 38:02Bill Simmons?

  face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today.

• 38:07Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, as promised, me and Peter Schreger talking about coaches and owners. Again, we taped this six days ago on Tuesday and ended up not running it because I ended up not doing that second and third podcast last week. So there's a lot of good stuff in there. Listen if you want. It's a it's a little dated, but not really. And I really like some of the stuff we talked about. So here it is right now. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast late Tuesday afternoon. Peter Schrager is here. You know, normally we don't have you on Tuesdays, but so much weird coach shit's happening in the NFL. I can't keep track. It's like you blink and another coach is on his way out. Did you expect it to be this chaotic? Or usually this happens after Monday. Why is it happening so staggered like this?

• 38:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I didn't think that it would be this timing. I thought it would all go down Monday morning. The The word I got on Antonio Pierce getting fired on a Tuesday afternoon as opposed to Monday was, well, that's, that's Mark Davis. He goes at his own timeline and goes to the beat of his own drum and, you know, they Pierce does a presser and then, all right, that's a one o'clock Monday presser. It means nothing Tuesday. He's shown the door. Mayo was interesting. Um, you know, I go, I go out of my way not to ever fire coaches unless I know they're getting fired. Um, but there was a lot of reports over the weekend that Mayo was safe barring some sort of calamity. And I'm like, well, I guess he didn't watch what happened the Saturday game against the Chargers,

• 39:32Bill Simmons?

  where the entire crowd is chanting, fire Mayo, and they're going up to the box. And I think the comments by the linebacker, uh, you know, on local radio to calling out the fans matters. I think a lot of things happened in that last two weeks and then specifically in those last 24 hours. But Vrabel interfering with the Jets, don't minimize that. I think it might have rattled some cages. It should, it could have lit some fires, but at the very least, you know, it's, it all culminated in what you saw immediately after the game on Sunday. The Vrabel things really started going about three weeks ago. That's when the buzz started building. That's, you know, I don't think it was coming from him. I just think that it was

• 40:14Bill Simmons?

  clear he was going to be the number one candidate and the Pat thing was going south. And we were talking about it on this podcast every week. Like, sometimes you have the wrong coach. It happens. Sometimes a guy's not ready to be a head coach. It happens. There wasn't a single sign this season that year two is going to be better with the staff, with the head coaching, with the game management, with the preparation. The team is going backwards in every way. So I, you know, everyone, I, it's really split in the people in my life because some people are pro Ben Johnson. And I just can't believe, like, if they have a chance to get Vrabel, I just can't believe, A, he's available, B, he's has Patriots ties, C, has a relationship with Kraft, D,

• 40:57Bill Simmons?

  He's a really good coach. I thought, I went back and I deep dove some of his Tennessee stuff. First of all, goes, makes the AFC title game with a nine and eight team. The next year goes 12 and 5 with Tannehill.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Lost to the Ravens. Good team. Yeah.

• 41:12Bill Simmons?

  Right. Tannehill, half a season of Derrick Henry. All of a sudden, Dante Foreman was a huge part of that team. A.J. Brown about to get pushed out. And beat some really good teams along the way that season. And then, you know, House and I got killed, the million dollar picks, I remember, or in real life, in the playoff game, Tannehill just completely shit the bed in round one. They were like eight point favorites. And from that point on, he never had a quarterback again. We had Tannehill washed up. Malik Willis was in there. Like that, you know, it was QB roulette. And then he eventually left because he didn't get rid, along with the GM, who was no longer there. He got fired today.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I think the-

• 41:50Bill Simmons?

  This feels like a, like a miracle that he's available.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  I also think you're starting to see some of the stuff that was going on in Tennessee. You talk about instability. Tennessee fired in consecutive years. John Robinson, the GM, then Mike Vrabel, the head coach, then they hired a new GM. And of course, they fired him this year. So, three straight years, they've had a firing of either a GM or a head coach, which doesn't tell me that's the most stable franchise either. I'm not a-

• 42:18Bill Simmons?

  By the way, but kudos to the Titans though, because, you know, we have these incompetent male owners. I'm glad we threw in an incompetent female. I like having the diversity, the incompetent female owner. It's just good to have her in there.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  That's it. We could only talk about the Johnsons and whoever else for so long. Now we've got Amy Adams.

• 42:36Bill Simmons?

  Old rich white guys. We're getting boring. We needed a female.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  Now we got white women. Yeah. I, I also am not a variable apologist in that you look at the record down the stretch, those last two years, and a lot of people who are Titans fans have reached out to me because I've been beating the drum for Vrabel also, saying how outrageous it is. And they're like, Guy, he, he, they didn't win and everyone in the, the building was miserable under him at the end. So you take that too. And you're like, all right, well, I'm not there every day. So look, he, he did his year in purgatory. He did his year with Cleveland wisely, got his contract to end the, the week before regular season ended, which was actually a brilliant move because he can interview in person. Whereas the rest of these guys, even if you miss the playoffs, you cannot interview in person for a head coaching job if you are employed by

• 43:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that is smart. Did he do that intentionally?

• 43:25Speaker 03

  I'm gonna give him credit. I'm gonna give him credit. He's, he's very good with rules in the games. If he played this one right, because Bill, it was brilliant. He can meet in person. No other coach currently employed by an NFL team can meet in person until January 20th. And only the one seed teams, the guys from the Lions and the Chiefs can even meet on Zoom this week to interview for head coaching jobs. So all these other guys, you know, the Liam Coens, who, who's the offensive coordinator in Tampa and the Cliff Kingsberrys and all these other guys who are playing this week, who want to interview for jobs, they can't. And even when they can, it'll be in the future and they have to do it by Zoom. Mike Vrabel can go on a traveling tour and meet with whoever. Now, the other guys who can do that,

• 44:10Speaker 03

  Pete Carroll, who we know is going to interview with the Chicago Bears this week, which is happening. And Adam Schefter was right all along on that. And we also know that Rex Ryan interviewed with the Jets today. I can give you updates on that.

• 44:21Bill Simmons?

  Just stop with Rex Ryan.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  I mean, just stop. Ron Rivera interviewed last week. And I guess that would be, and then John Gruden, if someone

• 44:28Bill Simmons?

  Ron Rivera, after his sterling, sterling run in Washington. Let's get him another

• 44:32Speaker 03

  If someone wanted to interview Gruden, they can interview Gruden because he's not currently employed anywhere. I don't think there's been any slips in for Gruden yet. So other than that, Vrabel's like, shit, okay, you want to interview Ron Rivera and Rex Ryan? All right. And then interview me in person? All right. And then go interview Aaron Glenn on Zoom on Wednesday when he's trying to, you know, figure out his whole playoffs and all that stuff. So Vrabel timed this thing perfectly. And Bill, I hear you

• 44:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's the hot candidate. There's no other who's, who else is it?

• 44:59Speaker 03

  Ben Johnson would be, would be the hot name. And the thing with Ben, That is appealing if you're the New England Patriots or for him is he's got North Carolina ties. He was at the University of North Carolina and you go to Drake May and you go to May's family and there's a real Carolina Chapel Hill thing. The irony of course is that Belichick's there now and has nothing to do with it. And that with Drake May and $130 million in cap space, there is a lot to like if you are Ben Johnson walking into that situation as well, especially if you have a certain fondness for May. But I think it's all but done. I would think Vrabel, I would be shocked if it's not Vrabel at the end of the day.

• 45:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, they sped right. This Rooney Rule, which you know, was an important rule they created. And then they just speed rushed through it to it's basically a speed bump. If you know that you're going to hire somebody and the way that they rushed into interviews today to kind of get that part over.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  It's not good. It's not good optics.

• 45:56Bill Simmons?

  It's bad optics and it's not a good way to do it.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  It's not the Patriots fault. That's the league rules and they followed the rules. They interviewed two minority candidates. He told us we had to interview two minority candidates. We did it. And like, I know that sounds abrasive or whatever, but that's, that's the rule and they did it. And I see a lot of people saying they sidestep the rules. And it's like, go tell Pep Hamilton and Byron Lefwitch that they were, you know, that they shouldn't have interviewed. Like it's, it's a shame, but they want Vrabel or Ben Johnson and that's who their eyes are set on. And I'd be hard pressed calling out the crafts as, you know, as bigots or anything. They just, they just hired an African American coach last year. So I don't, you know, it's, it's, it's a troublesome situation for the league with the, with the minority candidates.

• 46:37Bill Simmons?

  It's a rule that they can't, they can't really nail the rule. I think with the crafts, I think they probably just looked at some spreadsheet. A friend of mine made this joke on passing along and whoever was the cheapest flight from wherever they lived to Providence, those probably like were the two they brought in. It's like Byron Lefwitch, oh Jacksonville to Providence. It's $289, coach. Let's get, let's get, so let's put him in. This is my fear. If I, if I'm a coach taking over the Pats, they don't spend money. They meddle and they've been a fucking disaster for the entire 2020. So Vrabel, I think can at least walk in there and go, I know this building. I know the crafts. I know what the Patriots mean. I know, I understand the Patriots way, whatever the concept of that was. It's gone

• 47:22Bill Simmons?

  now with Belichick and Brady. They're both gone, but he at least understands it. He's a link to it. And that, all that could be appealing on top of. Drake May.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:32Bill Simmons?

  That's the best situation of all the open situations. You mentioned Ben Johnson. This is, I started saying this earlier and I tailed off. This is a very divisive text thread subject now with the Pats fans in my life.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  And I was gonna say.

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  Ben Johnson or Vrabel?

• 47:47Speaker 03

  And, and here's the thing. When are you finally gonna say enough with the building and enough with the Belichick and Brady? And let's really start anew. Because you bring Ben Johnson in. That's a guy who's been in Miami and that's a guy who has been in Detroit. And there is no real connection to that New England universe. And it's like, all right, I'm gonna finally take a job after three years of being the hot candidate. I'm coming in, you're gonna have to pay me X amount of dollars and I'm gonna wanna bring in my guys. And no offense to what Mike Vrabel and Bill Belichick did in the 2006 season, or what Tom Brady accomplished in 2010s. I, I think it's time you guys needed a new coat of paint and I'm gonna bring it in. And if you're hiring me, you're giving me the freedom to do that.

• 48:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't like your tone, Peter Schrager.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  Don't talk about it.

• 48:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't like your tone right now.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  Okay, Vrabel obviously is in a different boat because I think it's actually interesting that Vrabel didn't choose to just go back to New England and work for Belichick. Yeah, he worked for Bill O'Brien and yeah, there's been connections, but he did it on his own. He went to Ohio State, he went to Houston. He went to Tennessee and like he went out of it. He was also traded unceremoniously by Bill to Kansas City. And that wasn't, you know, necessarily his choice.

• 48:55Bill Simmons?

  Big mistake.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  I don't, yeah.

• 48:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, let me throw this at you, cuz this is one of the things I've been talking about with people in my life. How many times does the hot play caller actually become a good coach? We've seen this over and over again. It's, it's the Steichen, you know, Kingsbury, McD, it seems like there's one or two every year. And it's like, this guy's a whiz kid. Bobby Slowik last year, coming off that first Houston season, people were like, oh Bobby. Now it's like, you know, I don't think he has a shot in hell. But how many times does this guy actually work versus my preference would be the culture guy, the Tomlin, the Harbaugh, the guy who's like, I'm not really a specialist at anything, but what I'm good at is building a football team, coaching different types of things, running a staff.

• 49:43Bill Simmons?

  Being in charge of different units of a football team, that's my, that's my secret power. That's Ray Bell's secret power. That's what he's good at. I would rather have that versus the whiz kid offensive play caller because we already have a great quarterback. Like, I'd actually rather have a really good defensive guy, a guy who could build an offensive line around him. We already have the talent in offense.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  It's, it's a great philosophical question and it's also, you know, this year there just isn't a large pool of that. So in recent years, Jim Harbaugh always flirted with the NFL. We know there was considerations in Minnesota. There's considerations in Chicago. He's that guy. Harbaugh's a culture builder. Whether you like him or not, and Kyle Brandt said it on your podcast before the season started, wake out of bed, you're gonna get 10 wins out of Jim Harbaugh the first year. And they got 11. And they got 11. And they went over and they're one of your 27 teams that you got, right? Because you knew Harbaugh is, is a winner. It's what he does everywhere he goes. I know it's divisive on your pod when I go and rave about him all the time, but Sean Payton is a winner. You bring Sean Payton in, he's bringing in his guys, he's bringing in his systems.

• 50:47Bill Simmons?

  Divisive with who? Like bots on, on the internet?

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, I get, I get.

• 50:52Bill Simmons?

  Those people can fuck off. The podcast is free. Settle down.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Hey, we talk about how you're like freezing cold takes and all that. I got killed for the Jets one, but I'm gonna take a bow. I said the Broncos were going to the playoffs. I think I was the only person I said they're going to the wild card round. I'm like taking my victory lap and everyone's like, we don't give a shit. Like, I'm like, all right.

• 51:08Bill Simmons?

  Nobody bats 100% at this. I had Scoot Henderson as a mortal lock to become an all-star in the NBA and he can't even play.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Guess what? We took a swing. You liked him. You didn't believe in Doc.

• 51:18Bill Simmons?

  I genuinely felt that way. You believed in the Jets. You discounted some, some red flags with the history of the franchise and an aging QB coming. Now we know, don't back an aging QB coming off an Achilles injury. Going forward, I know, I now know this. I had the Jets winning the AFC East. Never again.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Never again. To that though, recent years, there have been those guys, or there's been a college coach that's like, ooh, like Urban Meyer. At the time, they were like Jacksonville's in a free fall. Urban Meyer, you know, he's been a college coach at a high level, like. Kirby Smart doesn't seem to be being mentioned right now. Deion Sanders' name is not coming up right now.

• 51:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's coming up with the, there's Vegas rumors with him already with Deion.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Okay, well, that'll start coming, but then Nick Saban is not coming out of retirement, it sounds like. And then you start going down the list and it's like, all right, well, Kingsbury coached, but it wasn't like Kingsbury was Bill Walsh over there. So he's not really in that conversation. And Matt Nagy coached, but he got fired. He's not like a culture guy. We don't. So it's Vrabel. That's the only name. And you could say Pete Carroll and, you know, but like, we're talking about ascending, you know, an exciting hire for the fan. Pete Carroll might be exciting for Bears fans. He's also in his 70s and that's more like the Joe Gibbs, bring him out of retirement.

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  He's too old. He got old in Seattle. I, I just think, if you're hiring Pete Carroll, it's almost like a PR energy move where you're just trying to change some sort of bad stink around your building. Like to me, Jacksonville, a team that's like been rock bottom the last couple of years and just needs some sort of jolt. And he comes in, he's playing basketball with the coaches and, you know, he's great with the media and maybe that'll work, but that, it's not like, for the Bears, that doesn't make sense.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. And again, he's a culture guy. So like, he's got the energy of a, of a 40 year old or 50 year old. So like, he'll run through, but I'm just saying this year, that pool of like leader of men, CEO, like unless you're talking to Mike Tomlin and John Harbaugh, and I'm trying to think of, you know, Andy Reid's not going, those are the guys, cause they're CEOs and they run the team and they once were coordinators, Tomlin, of course, on the defensive side.

• 53:28Bill Simmons?

  So you're more on my side now with the, you want the coach to be more of a CEO. I'm not saying Ben Johnson can't do it, but I think over and over again, it's, it's hard to, you know, this is something, you know, Lombardi's talked about this on the podcast all the time, that being, running a unit versus running a team.

• 53:48Bill Simmons?

  People don't realize what a jump that is and you actually have to be really interested in, hey, what's going on with the special teams? Why aren't we good at this with the defense? Hey, I've noticed when we're in nickel, this, this, and this is wrong. You can't just like be holding your play sheet. This is why McVeigh, who I think was a hot shot play caller,

• 54:05Speaker 03

  I'm gonna give you a good story there.

• 54:06Bill Simmons?

  But he's not an offensive guy. Like he's a, I coached the whole team guy. He's a big picture guy. He's, he's personnel. He's everything.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  And here is your devil's advocate to that argument. So when Jeff Fisher got fired, they interviewed everybody. They had really liked a few people. I remember they really liked Matt Patricia. They liked Doug Marrone. The Rams were in the market for a new coach and they had a lot of guys with a lot more experience. McVeigh was 30 and Stan Kronk, he's talking with Les Snead and Kevin Demoff, their president, and he's like, I just don't know. He's, he's young. And the argument that was made in the room by Kevin, Les, and then eventually Stan got on board was, okay, so he's young now and we miss on him this year and then next year he's hired by someone else and he's 31 and he's doing it for somebody else. Mike Tomlin, when he was interviewing, he was a defensive backs coach from the Minnesota

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Vikings, comes in, meets with them. Everyone thought that job was gonna be Bruce Arians or at the time, it might have, Russ Grimm, I believe, was the other one who was interviewing. It was gonna be one of those guys. They hired Tomlin. You didn't know those guys were gonna be leaders of men. They took a swing and they did it at a young age and it worked out. But there are so many other, the list is endless from Nathaniel Hackett to, to all the other one.

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  So Hackett's your worst case scenario because

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:23Bill Simmons?

  That's a combo of play caller only, but also was working closely with Rogers and maybe wasn't as

• 55:29Speaker 03

  And was with an offensive head coach.

• 55:31Bill Simmons?

  Endless with an offensive head coach. So that's like, so I'm looking back at some of the coaches that have been hired, that have just coached in the last

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Dan Campbell is a CEO type. He was a tight ends coach, never called plays and the Lions

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  But had experience though. He, he had that Dolphins, like interim coach. So at least like knew the lay of the world. I feel like when it goes wrong for these coaches, they don't have a specialty, but they also don't know how to build a culture, which was the Mayo issue. Mayo was like, he's a defensive guy. It's like, was he? He was never even the defensive coordinator.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  He was the outside linebacker's coach. Yep.

• 56:01Bill Simmons?

  And, and it's like, is he a culture guy? Is he? Cause our culture is going sideways as this goes. Um, it's a good problem to have. I guess Bill O'Brien is another example of like, oh, offensive guru. But the culture thing in Houston never quite got there, right?

• 56:16Speaker 03

  Well, they gave him the reins. He eventually grew into a really good head coach and then he also had player personnel decisions. So he ended up being that guy and then it all came tumbling down.

• 56:24Bill Simmons?

  That was like almost too much for him.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  I think it's gonna be variable.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  If I'm putting my money down, I'm saying it's variable as well.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  Let me ask you on a, on a shock scale, if it is variable.

• 56:38Bill Simmons?

  Josh McDaniel is OC.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Oh, not shocked at all. Not shocked at all. I mean, his kid spent 15 years living in, remember he was with New England forever and he took.

• 56:49Bill Simmons?

  He might still be living in that area.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  As I was saying, his kids went to high school there. Like there is, there is a lot, and he didn't end on bad terms there. He took a job with the Raiders. He didn't leave. He didn't get like blown out the door. So yeah, I think McDaniel's is a very good possibility.

• 57:04Bill Simmons?

  John Gruden.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  As what?

• 57:07Bill Simmons?

  OC.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  I think.

• 57:12Bill Simmons?

  So that would shock you. That sounds like a seven and a half, eight.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  I'm going through the head because no, I think, I mean, I've spoken to multiple people around the league and they're surprised that Gruden hasn't gotten head coaching the interviews. And the only reason he wouldn't is because of the emails from 2012 that came out or 20, I think 2012 is when they were. Obviously they're horrendous emails, but that's the reason why everyone thinks Gruden is an elite play caller and can still be one of those leader of men culture guys. And I actually think the Barstool stuff that he's been doing where he's out there and he's on videos and a whole different generation is seeing him break down and tell stories and be human. Like that stuff works and it was what I think Belichick was trying to do this season too, by doing the McAfee and the Manning cast. Like, let me show a different side of you guy of me that I'm not some grump. And I think it worked to a point that he got that, that North Carolina job as well.

• 58:01Bill Simmons?

  It's smart. Pat Riley invented it.

• 58:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, went to NBC, right?

• 58:04Bill Simmons?

  Left the Lakers, did studio on NBC for one year.

• 58:07Speaker 03

  Who was he with? Who was the studio?

• 58:09Bill Simmons?

  It was him and Costas. It was actually really good. It was one of the first good.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  And what was that, like 1990?

• 58:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And then, uh, just seemed handsome and like he knew what the fuck he was talking about. And then it led to the Knicks just turning the, uh, turning everything over to him.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  After John, after John McLeod was the Knicks coach? Who was the Knicks coach before that?

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  There's a bunch of, bunch of bad ones.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Stu Jackson?

• 58:32Bill Simmons?

  What do you think the best open job is?

• 58:35Speaker 03

  To me, I would have said Jacksonville if they blew out the GM because the owner doesn't meddle, the owner does it, but you're inheriting a GM who is a survivor, a classic office politics survivor. And I don't know Trent Baalke. I'm in this a long time and I know a lot of people say he's a fine guy, like we've met, but he has a way with with this owner and he's had a way with Jed York when he was in San Francisco that he outlasted everybody. So I don't know if you're a head coach, if you're a young guy like Ben Johnson, who's been waiting for this opportunity and has turned down offers and has is really been really thoughtful and deliberate with this. If you're going into a job where a GM has now is getting his third head coach. So the best job, I mean, I know it sounds like I'm kissing your ass or I'm beating you.

• 59:17Bill Simmons?

  You're not kissing my ass. The best job is the Pats job. The downside is the crafts, the crafts, the front office, the lack of spending.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  But the salary cap, the salary cap money is there. There's $130 million.

• 59:31Bill Simmons?

  Will they spend it? I mean, also, I think what people realized after Belichick left was Belichick was, he was the, he was the guy, you know, who was the superintendent of the building, but could also show the, show the units, but could also fix anything that happened and also lived in the building. And he basically was worth seven things.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  He was the super downstairs. Yeah.

• 59:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He was Mr. Roper combined with like an electrician. But I think when he left, I don't think they realized how many like small stuff because he was so like hands on and so all over the place. So he leaves and they have this bare bone to everything after that. And the crafts have been super cheap in every respect for the last 10 years. They, what did they get? An F in that player and family thing? Yeah. They sat on a bunch of stuff. This year I would be, if I was taking that job, I'd be nervous. I'm like, are you guys, how much is Jonathan going to meddle? How much am I going to be able to spend? Are you guys gonna start spending more on scouts? Am I gonna be able, like, part of the reason they couldn't get offensive, defensive

• 1:00:36Bill Simmons?

  coaches, coordinators, Dan Pelt was like the 12th offensive coordinator, they weren't paying big bucks for it.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Bill Simmons?

  It's like, do you want to be our offensive coordinator? Here's a shitty offer and our team sucks. It's like, oh, I can't believe we couldn't hire anyone.

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  Do you, do you think that year of misery and hearing fire Mayo and having CBS cameras shoot to them after every bad play, you know, showing the owners on TV?

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  And the Apple dock.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  And the Apple dock, do you think that spurs them to now open up the wallets? Remember that one year?

• 1:01:02Bill Simmons?

  I did.

• 1:01:02Speaker 03

  Belichick, Belichick was even, was able to go bonkers with free agency and he did after that horrible in-between year after Brady. Now.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  By the way, underrated free agency, looking back, John U. Smith, Hunter Henry.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  Not bad.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  Aguilar, like all those guys. John U. Smith was an awesome weapon. I don't know what happened to him in New England.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Judon, Judon, right?

• 1:01:20Bill Simmons?

  Judon, yeah. It was like, go back and it was like, all right, not bad.

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  I would also say with the Patriots, you know, they're gonna now be paying, they're paying for that mistake. Gerard Mayo is gonna be paid out his full contract as an NFL head coach. So I know this is a league thing, it's also an owner thing, like, there is, I believe the number was something like hundreds of millions of dollars that is just dead money that owners are spending on fired coaches around the NFL right now.

• 1:01:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you know, it's like a strong safety. It's like, it's, they have 53 man rosters.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  I know, but, but for a league that likes to maximize its money and pour things into international and pour things into flag football and pour things into women's flag football.

• 1:02:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Speaker 03

  For the owners to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on fired coaches so they can laugh and get paychecks and double dip with other teams, like, that's not a good look either. So for the Patriots, if you're telling me that they're notoriously not big spenders, to know all of that and still fire Mayo after one year and still pay him out his full contract tells you just how bad things were in that building.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't think he was making a shitload of money would be my only thing. But you made me think of something, though. I, maybe they should pass a rule that if the fired coaches then have to do media for the NFL as part of their contract.

• 1:02:37Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 1:02:39Bill Simmons?

  Like they they just like have to be on.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  We have you on retainer. You gotta do.

• 1:02:42Bill Simmons?

  It's like the coach franchise that Belichick started. Now it's like, now we have Gerard Mayo and Robert Sala. The worst job out of all the open jobs in your opinion.

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  I think the Saints job, I think the Saints job's tough because the Saints job, you still got Derek Carr on the books. That's a franchise that still hasn't torn it all down. And you've still got Cam Jordan, you still got DeMario Davis, and it's a roster that's kinda in between. Now, Mickey Loomis is the GM. He's been there forever. He's got great success. And I think there's a lot to like about working in that building. You kinda lay low. You're you're in your own little world. Peyton loved it there for years. And obviously Mickey's gonna do a good job with free agents in the draft. But it just feels like you're still in a purgatory there until they tear that whole thing down. And the quarterback position is Derek Carr for the the near future.

• 1:03:34Bill Simmons?

  Counter. Pretty mediocre division.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, winnable games.

• 1:03:39Bill Simmons?

  That'd be the case for Jacksonville, too. You take over Jacksonville. You just look around and like, ah, we could. I I think the worst job's the Raiders because you got Mark Davis, who just seems like he changes his mind every five seconds.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  It's a different building, man. Like, I know all the league, like, there are 31 teams and there are the Raiders. Like, yeah, there are people in that building who I really trust, good sources. And I'm like, so I guess AP's good. And they're like, dude, we don't know. Like, they didn't know. No one knew. And then today he's fired. It's like, all right, on we go, you know?

• 1:04:08Bill Simmons?

  So you have the organization, complete, absolute clusterfuck.

• 1:04:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm also in the same division as the Chiefs, Chargers and Broncos. I have.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  Those coaches.

• 1:04:18Bill Simmons?

  I have Mahomes, Herbert and even Bo Nix, and then I have those three coaches. And I'm just the black sheep of that division. I also have the, you know, a pretty high pick in this bat in this draft, but not high enough to really do anything. I got Brock Bowers and Max Crosby, and that's about it. That's a brutal job. And and the my owner's already paying three of their coaches before he started to pay me. And they whipped on so many drafts that even hitting the Bowers pick.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  Do you want the crazy irony of this whole thing? So last year around the senior ball, and obviously I'm talking to Kingsbury, he took his year with USC, he was working, working with Caleb and he was working with Lincoln Riley. And he interviewed for several offensive coordinator jobs. He interviewed for the Philly job, wasn't offered. Interviewed for the Chicago job, they gave it to Shane Waldron instead, even though he had the history with Caleb. And then he interviewed with the Raiders job, and it was all set, it was done. And then at the end, there was a hiccup on the length of years on the contract. And there was a miscommunication. And Cliff was like, I don't like where this is going. I don't like where this is setting up to go. And he's like, I liked Antonio Pierce, but I didn't know what was going on. And there was a lot of like,

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  people, I've been with them twice in person. Then Dan Quinn called and was like, do you want to be our offensive coordinator with the number two overall pick? And he's like, I'm in love with Jaden Daniels. Yeah, let's do that instead.

• 1:05:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  The irony is, they have now fired Antonio Pierce. So you take his salary. They fired Luke Getze, the offensive coordinator, you take his salary. They fired several other offensive coaches. It's about $20 million mistake right there, if you thought Cliff was the guy, based on length of the contract for the offensive coordinator position. So there's just little things like that, that people don't seem to like, look big picture at. And it's like, oh, they fired their coach again. But it's every step along the way that gets you there.

• 1:06:05Bill Simmons?

  It's funny that every single job has some sort of yeah, but attached to it. Right? Like, the Jets actually have talent.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  That's the thing. They have talent.

• 1:06:15Bill Simmons?

  But it's like, how do you, how do you take that job and know that you're dealing with, with the owners and all the dysfunction that's there? The Bears, you have a potential franchise quarterback. I use the word potential, because I wouldn't say it was like the greatest Caleb year. You have some weapons. You're okay. You're in an absolutely brutal division. But that front office and that organization is a fucking hornet's nest. Like, you're walking in a Game of Thrones the moment you get in there. Is there, is there like a worse hornet's nest organization than the Bears right now? Probably not.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  Well, it's, it's just a lot of cooks in the kitchen and they'll tell you that Ryan Poles, the GM is the one at the switch, but he's got a president above him who's very active in Kevin Warren.

• 1:07:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  And it's like, okay, well, if, if he's the one at the switch, well, who am I reporting to? Because am I reporting to him? Or then you got the McCaskeys and then there's other people in the building too. So those interviews, I'm curious to see who's at the table because there's so many different voices and you like to think they're all on one page. I've been told, and I think there's two things here. One, Ben Johnson has this reputation that I think is actually wrong. I've gotten to know Ben a little bit over the last few years and I think, you know, good offensive coach, obviously does all this stuff, but like, good dude. Seems like his name was dragged through the mud last year for what happened in Washington where he went down the road with Washington and Bob Myers and Josh Harris and those guys thought he was going to be the head coach, or at least they were flying out to meet with him and he pulled his name at the last second. And I think that rubbed

• 1:07:45Speaker 03

  a lot of people wrong. And then around the league, it became like-

• 1:07:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they made it seem like he left his husband at the altar or something.

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  No doubt.

• 1:07:51Bill Simmons?

  He just like decided not to take the job.

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  And he told him, I'm not going for the, I don't want to interview again. He didn't even accept the job. We've seen Josh McDaniels accept job at Indianapolis and then bail. Like that's something that I'm like, way worse. But like then Ben's name got absolutely trashed as like some, some like maniacal mad G. That's not him. Like, that's not him. And it's, it's going to be interesting to see how the narrative of him goes if he doesn't take one of these jobs and goes back to Detroit. Because Carolina was his a couple of years ago, if he wanted to go for that. I think David Tepper and those guys were very interested in him. Didn't interview, stayed with Detroit. Washington was probably his if he wanted it last year. Didn't interview. Interviewed once. Didn't interview the second time. Stays with Detroit. And if he's not blown away by Chicago or wherever else he's interviewing, like he doesn't need to take it.

• 1:08:37Bill Simmons?

  I wouldn't take that Chicago job.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  Guess what? He, I know it's going to come out that-

• 1:08:40Bill Simmons?

  Oh, cool. I get to be in the same division as Detroit, Minnesota and Green Bay?

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  Well-

• 1:08:44Bill Simmons?

  And I have no offensive line?

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  He didn't, he's not interviewing with the Jets. And a lot of people are going to say, well, why aren't the Jets trying to interview him? The Jets got word that like, he's not looking to go there. And that's okay. And that's fine. So I think the Caleb Williams thing is exciting. First overall pick, has crazy raw talent. And there is an allure to being the coach of the Chicago Bears. It's one of those prestige franchises. It's not the Jaguars. It's not the Saints. It's the Chicago Bears. And there is something to be said for when you win in that city, what a legend you can be.

• 1:09:16Bill Simmons?

  Which we haven't seen for 40 years. The Bears job is like, good fellows. It's like, it's over, no, no, it's over there.

• 1:09:22Speaker 03

  It's like walking down that night street.

• 1:09:24Bill Simmons?

  No, no, no, no. One more. No, no, it's right over there.

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  Keep going.

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  I just wouldn't go near it. Let's take a quick break.

• 1:09:34Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT, with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other,

• 1:10:19Bill Simmons?

  PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves. And the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FDIC. I have to ask you, you talk to a lot of people. What was the reaction to people in the league, to the Patriots actually winning that Week 18 game?

• 1:10:53Bill Simmons?

  Was that in your texts? What, were people just like, what just happened?

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  No, because that's the league. And we've seen it year after year after year. The, I think I've told you on the podcast, there's only like, I had a handful of games in my life covering the final week where like, the bad team actually doesn't show up and loses. And one of them, you have to, you have to do what like, you have to physically like, go out of your way to put backups in and give them no like preparation. And I'd called a game and I wouldn't accuse them of doing this like on, on record, but I would just say this, the Buccaneers were playing the Saints in the final week of the season. And Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota were the two top picks in the following draft. The Bucks had like two, and they played all backups. And I remember Sean Payton after the fact being like, for real? Like that's, that you guys played those guys?

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  And of course they secured the number one overall pick. And they would say, well, we didn't, we were just playing our guys. Gerard Mayo had no reason to abide by any rules. He put in

• 1:11:50Bill Simmons?

  He did not. That was part of the problem.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  So what would you have done? Would you have fired him on Saturday? And said, you can't play, you can't coach week 18?

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  It will, they clearly.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  Save his job if he, at that point, the decision was made.

• 1:12:03Bill Simmons?

  They clearly knew based on how long that statement was that came out like an hour.

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  30 seconds.

• 1:12:09Bill Simmons?

  That takes like three hours to get that statement correct. So they obviously had that during the week.

• 1:12:13Speaker 03

  So what do you do in hindsight? Do you fire him on Saturday and say?

• 1:12:17Bill Simmons?

  I think you let, I think if you know you're going to do it, you let him go midweek. You have somebody take over. I don't think you play any of the starting receivers. Right? Even booty playing was, was crazy. Like they, it should have been poke and baker the entire game. They're playing Antonio Gibson. They're playing Milton the whole game. The Bills were like, wait, Trubisky's doing too well. They yanked him.

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  Mike White's in.

• 1:12:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You watch the Chiefs. They were like, whoa, we want no part. Yeah. There's ways to do this and the problem is they, they, Milton was really good against Buffalo's second string. And then Buffalo, once they realized they had a chance to screw the pass, they were like, great. Here's Mike White. Did you know Mike White was still in the league?

• 1:12:58Speaker 03

  No, I didn't know Mike White was still in the league and they're punting the ball on the New England 35 and they're, you know, it's really hard to look at the coach in the face, look at the players in the face and be like, don't go out and win. Even if they're backups. So I, nothing surprised me. The fact the Giants lost, the fact the Giants beat the Colts is still one of the most insane things. Cause they're in desperate need of a quarterback. And they, they, they won that game and they played themselves out of the first or second.

• 1:13:21Bill Simmons?

  That was, I watched that game and I had money in the Colts. Drew Lock was great. The Colts were absolutely horrific.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  Neighbors was unguardable.

• 1:13:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. This Pat's thing was different because you, you at least have to have the OC involved. You tell the OC, you're coming back next year. Can you just call a lot of runs up the middle on third and, third and eight? Or some bad screen passes. I don't know.

• 1:13:43Speaker 03

  It's but you said it to Sal on Sunday night like, and I know you made the joke with Jack's shit, but it's like, if you were to tell me that we made this monster trade and the trade was just the first overall pick for the fourth overall pick, but we won that game like, and we fired the coach. It is truly insane on paper and yet we see it year after year that this happens. The final team in the final week wins a meaningless game and the players celebrate on the sideline because they've got pride and then they cost themselves the first overall pick. It happens every year.

• 1:14:11Bill Simmons?

  I was talking to a couple of people about it this week, how crazy it is, how expensive these franchises are. Each one of them is a business worth between five and $10 billion.

• 1:14:22Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:14:23Bill Simmons?

  And at least half of them are run horribly like they're, you know, the diner down the street where you're like, why did, why did they have to shut down the diner again? What happened? It's like, ah, this guy had hepatitis B, the chef. So they had, they had to fire him. Then the hell stepped in, but it's going to be back. You'll be able to get omelets in a couple of weeks. That's like how 10 NFL teams are run. It's, I, I just don't understand it. I don't understand how people, this is, I know some of the times they inherit it. It's been explained to me like sometimes the people that own the teams, the personality of whatever got them into that job is basically how they operate the team. So if you're a hedge fund guy, you look at everything as like risk reward, this boom, boom, what are

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  my two choices? If you're like somebody who builds and has a lot of different people reporting to you, maybe do that, maybe delegate more. If you inherited it because you were some rich kid, then it's the combo of I want to prove that I'm not just the rich kid, but you also don't have kind of the history or the, or the street smarts to know how to operate this year to year. So it's pretty rare to just find good owners, you know, and we know who the good owners are.

• 1:15:35Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And you know which owners have gained the trust. I'm going to find a tweet. So there's a guy Jake Rosenberg, he used to work for the Eagles and now he's like a GM. He writes this and it was a tweet and I thought it was like pretty spot on. Running a comprehensive, a comprehensive search for a head coach is exhaustive and expensive. And generally a huge pain in the ass. At the end of the day, not all owners prioritize winning enough to justify the expense and the time burning. Sad but true, most NFL GM hires are doomed from day one. And the reason is the those who hire have a lack of clarity in what skills and experience actually determines success in the role. Which is so true. So you have these owners who time and time again are the ones making the decisions.

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  And they're the ones at the table like, well, I like that guy. Okay, he's the, but we have no, we have no justification that they know what it takes week to week, day to day in the building to actually identify it. So it is, you know, a mild piece of insanity where the owner of the company is the one sitting at the table and he has the right to pick this year after year, but like the people making the decisions don't necessarily know exactly what goes into being a great coach.

• 1:16:39Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty crazy. And then you have somebody who finally figures it out, like the Chargers. And they were a mess for a while. They're like, you know what we should just do? Let's just bring Jim Harbaugh and let him figure it out. That's what you do if you're the owner. Just overspend on the guy who can run the whole thing for you.

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  The Broncos were such a bad place after Nathaniel Hackett and they had missed the, they basically told Sean Payton, name your price, we'll pay you the highest amount of money. Just come in and just build this thing back. And like, they didn't look back. The owner, you know, they're Walmart folks and it's Greg Penner and they're, from what Sean says, great owners and they just let him do what he wants.

• 1:17:14Bill Simmons?

  It's like a $250 million salary cap a year. So it's like, oh, oh, no, I have to pay my coach $10 million? I think they give a shit.

• 1:17:23Speaker 03

  So the Jets thing is interesting. So this year, instead of it being Woody, you know, meeting with, they bring in Tannenbaum and Spielman who used to do the job, but had been removed. And I'm not sure that they casted a very wide net here and they're doing in-person interviews tomorrow. We're recording this on Tuesday. So they're interviewing two GM candidates tomorrow. Alakalabi, who was kind of the Strategy and analytics and also does he's assistant general manager in Philly under Howie right now. And then a guy, Mike Borgonzi, who's the number two to Brett Veach in Kansas City. Like, those are the right names. Like, you should meet them. They're doing it. But the room is Spielman, Tannenbaum, and then it's Chris Johnson, Woody Johnson, and then it's Jaime, who's their president, and then maybe one or two other people. So you like to think

• 1:18:08Speaker 03

  that these that's, you know, bringing in Tannenbaum and Spielman who have done this before and have hired helps, but I don't know. We'll see how it turns out, right?

• 1:18:18Bill Simmons?

  I'm dubious. I'll tell you one guy. If I so if if I was buddies with an NFL owner, and they called and just said, what should I do? And it was the list of the usual suspects, right? You know, this guy, this guy's bounced around. Hey, there's Pete Carroll. I really like the Notre Dame coach. And I barely know anything about college football. But are we are we sure that he just can't be overwhelmed with some like, why can't he be the Bears coach? He's already in that part of the country anyway.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  Go back to November. I reported on Fox NFL kickoff. It blew up on all the Notre Dame blogs. I reported.

• 1:18:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you became a Notre Dame villain?

• 1:18:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, because when they fired Eberfluss, I said a name that's being talked about is Marcus Freeman in Chicago, which it was. And he has Big Ten connections with Kevin Warren. He was an Ohio State player, obviously went through the ranks. He was a hot name within that Bears organization. And then I was accused of being used as like leverage because they gave him a huge extension in Notre Dame. Just what happened. But I would still call him. Dude, he's a great coach.

• 1:19:21Bill Simmons?

  What does an extension mean? He can still leave?

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. Pay him more. Break the contract. Marcus Freeman.

• 1:19:28Bill Simmons?

  I really like that guy. To me, he seems like a culture guy, which is what you should be looking for if you're the fucking Bears. You have no culture at all other than the Hornets nest.

• 1:19:36Speaker 03

  It was real. I mean, that was real interest. What do you what do you think of Deion as an NFL head coach? Does that do anything for you? Is there just too much that comes with that with?

• 1:19:43Bill Simmons?

  It really doesn't. I just don't think he's been a head coach for long enough. And it seems too risky. I don't want to be risky with my $7 billion team. You know, like, if you're New Orleans, I would think about it, right? I'm going nowhere for two years. Let him take his lumps. Let him learn on the job. But I just think going from college to the NFL in general, there's been so few success stories. We've seen some of the best college coaches ever. Weren't that good as an NFL coach, you know? So I just think it's a slightly different skillset. That's why the Marcus Freeman, I don't know. I did a deep dive on him and I was just intrigued by him because

• 1:20:21Speaker 03

  He's awesome.

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  And just like watching him on the sidelines like just as, I don't know, there's something about him. So Rudy, are you on this?

• 1:20:28Speaker 03

  That fourth down play where they threw the guys and they threw the punt team on and then they did the fake and they drew them offside. That was the coolest play of the college football season.

• 1:20:37Bill Simmons?

  So Rudy, what do you think of Marcus Freeman as an NFL head coach?

• 1:20:43Speaker 04

  Thirty-eight. He did play for the Bears, which is interesting.

• 1:20:45Speaker 03

  Yes, he did.

• 1:20:47Speaker 04

  He's made Notre Dame like kinda likable too to the neutral, you know?

• 1:20:50Speaker 03

  Totally, like me.

• 1:20:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, like it's like, ah, Notre Dame, like, you know, unless you're a fan, you kinda hate them. I don't know, I kinda like this Notre Dame fan because you go from Brian Kelly, who, you know, yeah, felt the respect, you know, not, not a very likable dude. And now it's like, wait, Marcus Freeman, this guy's awesome. So I, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if it'd work, but I think you would win the PR, uh, flight always at the start.

• 1:21:10Bill Simmons?

  I, to me, I'd much rather do that than some retread or roll the dice with some offensive coordinator who's not even that hot of an offensive coordinator. So Rudy, if you could take any college coach and make them an NFL coach, who would it be?

• 1:21:25Speaker 04

  Oh, man.

• 1:21:26Bill Simmons?

  Like, like that actually would succeed in your opinion? Cause you, you love college football.

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  You follow it, you love it.

• 1:21:31Bill Simmons?

  Is there a guy that you were like, man, I bet that guy would be a good NFL coach?

• 1:21:37Speaker 04

  Man, Freeman, Freeman is the

• 1:21:39Speaker 03

  I'll give you, I'll give, I'll give you the name that's been buzzed a little bit, hasn't got any

• 1:21:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:42Speaker 03

  Sark is a name that, cause he has NFL experience and he's great on the offensive side of the ball. And he's kinda got this, you know, bravado around him that he can dominate over him. And he was great in Atlanta for that year with Dan Quinn, but go on, Rudy, I want your thoughts.

• 1:21:53Speaker 04

  He's, he's like Cliff with more success, like right at the college level essentially. Cause he's actually won some games, um, even though I do like Cliff.

• 1:22:02Bill Simmons?

  You know, is Dan Lanning that that doesn't make sense? He's not, not a specialty guy.

• 1:22:07Speaker 04

  He's got Marcus Freeman vibes.

• 1:22:09Bill Simmons?

  He's got Marcus Freeman vibes.

• 1:22:10Speaker 03

  If Lanning had won that game, I think there'd be a lot more buzz. Not that it cost him anything, but like there was, there's some, there were some people at NFL teams asking me if I'd heard anything on him. Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 04

  I mean, the thing is, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of fleeting though. Cause remember, I mean, Lincoln Riley, a couple of years ago, I was like, hey, is this guy going to be an NFL coach? And now it's like, nobody, you know, is he going to get fired? Like, is he any good? So I, it's tough. I think the offensive guys, yeah, the offensive guys are always sexy.

• 1:22:35Speaker 03

  PJ Fleck was a name for a while at Minnesota, not, not Matt Campbell, Iowa State was the hottest name for about five years. Matt Rule was a hot name. Obviously he got one of those deals, like it comes and goes.

• 1:22:45Speaker 04

  All those years, it was always like, is Kirk Ferentz going to get a job? Yeah.

• 1:22:48Bill Simmons?

  Are we sure that Rule couldn't be a good NFL coach?

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  He might be. I don't know.

• 1:22:53Bill Simmons?

  Like I go back, like that famous picture that got floated around during this season, this year of Darnold and Mayfield together in the Carolina. That, that team he put together. And then I felt like he got fired a little prematurely. I know they weren't doing great, but then that team almost made the playoffs, the team that he, that he did. But he was like the hottest name of the past six years for college. And now he's just not a good coach anymore. Cause he went to go with David Tepper.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Did Nebraska do anything this year? I know they had the kid that dresses like Mahomes and they played at that pinstripe bowl. Dom Riola's kid, but are they, was he viewed as a good, like Nebraska great this year or no?

• 1:23:29Speaker 04

  Better than, you know, the problem with Nebraska is like of all the, like the down, you know, historic programs, they're probably like the hardest one to bring back. Cause it's just, how do you get, how do you get talent there? You know, you used to just get all the big offensive linemen and whatever, but yeah, I think, I think it's okay. Yeah, that, that's a huge turnaround. I don't know, the, the thing is.

• 1:23:50Bill Simmons?

  I personally would much rather roll the dice with Freeman, Dan Lanning, Matt Rule again versus like.

• 1:23:57Bill Simmons?

  I love Pete Carroll, but I just, I don't see it. I don't see how that's your move when he's 75 years old or however old he is.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  If we're playing connect the dots, I would say if Vrabel goes to New England, I would imagine Ben Johnson is Chicago and he just needs to just bite the bullet and say, I don't know what I'm walking into, but like, I want that job. I want that quarterback. If he's going to leave, I would think Chicago. Jets, I would look at Aaron Glenn. I would look at, I would look at him as a former Jet and a defensive coach, which might not be whatever he wants.

• 1:24:26Bill Simmons?

  I've been, I was so impressed by him in that Minnesota game. I did, I thought that was like a coaching win. Yeah, it really was.

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  So good. And he's a former Jet and he's all business and he's waited his turn and he's been with New Orleans and he's been with Detroit. The other name for the Jets, there's two other names that I would say, and obviously I've got sources there, but like, it's going to go down to the interviews. I don't have an idea how these guys do.

• 1:24:47Bill Simmons?

  They're interviewing 12 people.

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. Joe Brady in Buffalo interviewed with the Jets back in 19, back in that same year where Todd Monkin and Matt Ruhl and all those guys interviewed and Adam Gase got the job and Joe Brady was like 30 when he interviewed with them and was awesome in the interview. He was just too young and it wasn't time. He has since done the whole thing. He went to Carolina, then he went to Buffalo. Like, that could be an exciting hire. And then Arthur Smith is a name that will not get the fans excited, but he interviewed in 21 when they gave it to Sala and really did a good job with the Jets interview there and was the hottest name. And then he chose Atlanta. And then you've got to now build yourself up. Now, look, I don't know if Pittsburgh's offense is worthy of a head coach being hired,

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  but Arthur Smith's an adult in the room and you know, he's competent. It's just, he's never had a quarterback in either Atlanta and I would argue in Pittsburgh either.

• 1:25:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. If I was Arthur Smith in the interview, so Rudy, they'd be like, so what happened in Atlanta? I would just be like, can you go on Pro Football Reference and look at the fucking quarterbacks I had? That's what happened. What am I going to do? I had Marcus Mariota and the Riddler. Desmond Riddler. What was I going to do?

• 1:25:57Speaker 04

  That's why I'm surprised, Drakes, that like, most of these guys, like, why isn't quarterback, like, almost more important? Like, Harbaugh, I feel like the second time around was like, all right, I'm not going to a place that doesn't have a quarterback.

• 1:26:07Bill Simmons?

  Because he's smart. Yeah, Sean Payton, Sean Payton, I think, knew that, but it was like, wait, how much money?

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, and they told him, they told him, give it a year.

• 1:26:15Bill Simmons?

  This much money.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  Give it a year and you'll figure it out.

• 1:26:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's why, that's why the Pats are in such a good spot with Drake May because there's seven of those guys in the league.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  And he's one of them. And Caleb's, Caleb might be too. So that's why I think he's possible. I think they know that. That's why, and Warlands is difficult. Jacksonville, the book is out on Trevor Lawrence. Like Jacksonville to me, I saw the list of names. Like, that's like, you know, maybe Liam Cohen, who's the offensive coordinator in Tampa, he gets a shot. He worked with McVay and like, he's very highly viewed. Maybe that's the Jacksonville guy. And it's like, all right, like, all right, it's his first year. He's a quarterback guy. He'll work with Trevor Lawrence. We'll see. But I don't know if anyone's banging down the doors to work with Trent Baalke and Trevor Lawrence.

• 1:26:57Bill Simmons?

  Trevor Lawrence would be. So, Rudy, do you admit defeat yet on Trevor Lawrence? Or no? Still hold on?

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. That's a Jaguars problem. I think he's gonna be fine. I don't, I don't know if he's gonna be like a top five guy.

• 1:27:07Bill Simmons?

  So Rudy never admitted defeat on Jonathan Isaac. So he's got a good track record.

• 1:27:10Speaker 04

  That's true. I refused to trade him for years.

• 1:27:11Bill Simmons?

  He held it. He was always, he was turning down every Jonathan Isaac trade offer.

• 1:27:16Speaker 03

  Crushing the Knicks last night. I was watching.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, look, on the one hand, I'm a big quarterback has to be in the right situation with the relatively right coach guy. On the other hand, I just don't see it from Lawrence. I don't see it. Like, the way Sam Darnold played in that Lions game when he was sailing the ball and everything, that Lawrence does that every game. And Darnold, at least, you could make excuses for him. It was like the hostile environment. It was probably the biggest game of his career. You know, he got off to kind of a iffy start. Like, I'm, I've watched him all year. I'm willing to excuse it. I just, how many times can Lawrence just suck?

• 1:27:51Speaker 04

  But that's why, that's why I think the best job, Drakes, is like, if, if, if Ben Johnson wants the Jags job, and he goes, hey, I'll take the job if you fire Baalke.

• 1:28:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. Which I think there is a window, because Shad Khan, I mean, Baalke's on the Zoom, and Shad Khan, they asked him about it, and he's like, if the head coach comes in and says he wants me to reevaluate the GM, I will. So that's, that's why I thought it was such an appealing job from the go, because the cons really do not meddle. They're one of these owners that are super wealthy. They've got a million different interests. And they're like, we're hiring the coach to do what he does.

• 1:28:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Suns running a wrestling league. I'm so glad you brought this up, because this is another friend, because I was talking to a bunch of people this week. And this friend said, the most, single most important thing a coach should look for is the medal scale with an owner.

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:28:35Bill Simmons?

  And it was like, Washington, they barely talk to.

• 1:28:38Speaker 03

  They, there's also 20 of them.

• 1:28:40Bill Simmons?

  Josh Harris talks to them like 15 minutes twice a week and that's it. And they just, he basically delegates because he's got a million things going on. The cons are like that. The crafts are not like that. The crafts are in your life. You take that Pat's job, you've got to deal with them. Jonathan's going to call, Robert wants to go, like, he's just going to be around and wants to know shit.

• 1:28:59Speaker 03

  I'll tell you, there's a job, a job that is not currently vacant, but a couple of coaches ago, where every Monday morning, the owner would come in and the head coach had to justify like three different, you know, play call decisions to the owner. That's, that's hell. You don't want to, you don't want to go through that. That's not the cons. They don't do that. Josh Harrison do that. Stan Kronke doesn't do that. Like, you have to figure that stuff out. But the GM being Balki there now, that would be a red flag just because I don't know the guy. And I'm, I've been very picky and very selective. The Jets job is actually intriguing because it's a blank slate right now. So if you're one of those guys, you're like, all right, well, maybe like if, I was saying with Vrabel, if Vrabel can come in and be like, I want to bring in Ryan Cowden, my friend who works for the Giants, who's with the Titans, I want him to be the GM with me. If you take both of us, then I'll consider it. Like, I think Vrabel could do that.

• 1:29:44Speaker 03

  But it sounds like he's going to New England and it sounds like Elliott Wolf is safe up there.

• 1:29:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we'll see. With the, with the Balki piece, Ben Johnson should just tell Shaq, can you realize that when Harbaugh left, he hired Jim Tomsula? Same guy. Same, and by the way, your team's way worse now. Maybe, maybe there's something here with Balki. I, I wouldn't say their track record's great.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  I want to give you two more names because I know they're, they're fooling around.

• 1:30:14Bill Simmons?

  For GM?

• 1:30:15Speaker 03

  No, for head coach. Does Mike McCarthy as a free agent? He can't interview with anyone until at least January 14th. And they already denied his ability to interview with the Bears. But they, they can't do that after January 14th when his contract's up. Does Mike McCarthy, a CEO, leader of, and 12 wins all these years, Super Bowl? But also, Mike McCarthy, does that interest you at all, Bill, if you're a team looking for stability?

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  Yes, if my team sucks and I'm like the Raiders and I just want some sort of professional franchise again. If I'm trying to win the title, maybe not as excited. What about you, Sarudy?

• 1:30:52Speaker 04

  If you're the Raiders, you're going to be terrible regardless. At least take a swing on somebody who has upside. Like, I know what Mike McCarthy is. I, Mike McCarthy went to the Cowboys press conference and basically said he didn't do any homework on the team and didn't, like, this is not a guy, with all due respect, like, if I'm the Raiders, I'd hire Deion over McCarthy, because at least, like, you're kind of entertaining and people are talking about you. And maybe his son goes there and maybe it works out with Mike McCarthy. Like, what are you getting?

• 1:31:17Speaker 03

  Who has more leverage in that situation if it's January 15th and they don't come to a deal? Jerry and the Cowboys or Mike McCarthy, who might have options to go elsewhere? Because I think-

• 1:31:26Bill Simmons?

  Mike McCarthy. There's like seven jobs open.

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

  I think you're right. I think you're right.

• 1:31:31Bill Simmons?

  I got one of them. Like, at least, that, that's one of those where it's like, well, at least he won't drive the car into a tree. You know? Like, Deion, I have no idea if that guy would be, it'll be really fun. I hope he comes into the league. It's just from, from a content standpoint, it'll be awesome. But I don't know if he's gonna be a good coach.

• 1:31:49Speaker 04

  In two years, you're in the same spot. And two, like, like, the Raiders are going nowhere. So, what's two years? If it doesn't work out in two years, you're probably at the same spot you are now.

• 1:31:57Speaker 03

  What about if you're the Jets, who just went through this tumultuous thing? And you're like, does, Mike McCarthy interviewed for the Jets back in 19, I believe, and he was like just fired from Green Bay and no one in New York wanted him and it didn't happen. But like, I don't know, I thought the Dallas era of McCarthy is like 12 wins, 12 wins, lost his quarterback, didn't win 12 games. Like, I don't know, maybe I'm-

• 1:32:17Bill Simmons?

  And the team kept playing hard for him this year. I was surprised. Well, the one, the one appeal with the Jets is if they hired McCarthy, that's a final F you to Aaron Rodgers.

• 1:32:26Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 1:32:26Bill Simmons?

  Pack up your locker, buddy.

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 1:32:28Bill Simmons?

  This is, this is a wrap. Does Rodgers play next year, by the way?

• 1:32:32Speaker 03

  It sounds like it's over, you know? It sounds like it's over. I didn't speak to him. We have a relationship, but he wouldn't tell me. But like, it's just the way he's talking and he gave that, those quotes day before the game. And then, you know, the Pam Oliver said like, I love you and gave her a big hug. Like, it felt like this is like my goodbyes. Like, it'd have to be a perfect situation. I don't know if it exists. What do you mean?

• 1:32:55Bill Simmons?

  I say no.

• 1:32:56Speaker 03

  He's got too much competitive spirit to end it that way?

• 1:32:58Bill Simmons?

  I think he's gonna wanna try to latch on to a really good team where he could just steer the car. What do you think, Surdi?

• 1:33:04Speaker 04

  Mike McCarthy and Aaron Rodgers in Vegas? Who says no?

• 1:33:07Speaker 03

  Definitely. With Tom Brady as the owner?

• 1:33:10Bill Simmons?

  That is, if you showed, if you showed Aaron Rodgers like 10 minutes of, of Brock Bowers tape, might rejuvenate him. The guy's fricking absolute animal.

• 1:33:21Speaker 03

  Can live in Vegas, nice living, no taxes, it could be all right.

• 1:33:24Speaker 04

  Devante Adams back?

• 1:33:26Bill Simmons?

  I think the worst job is the Giants job of all the jobs. But it's not open. Cause Dayball took it back. No, I just, I thought that one was gonna be open up and maybe they hired or brought Dayball back because it's like, who the fuck would want this job? It's like, we have no quarterback, we suck every year. Our cap space is kinda screwed. You wanna be our coach? No thanks. So they're better off just bringing him back.

• 1:33:53Speaker 03

  Can I give you another name? That Glazer mentioned on Sunday, but this has been bubbling a little bit. So Mike McDaniel got a big contract extension this year and he was hired the same year as Kevin O'Connell. The Vikings opted not to give Kevin O'Connell their extension before the season, meaning next year is the final year of his contract. So they can do it whenever, but there hasn't been an extension done. So Glazer threw out there, he's entering the final year of his contract. And I don't think the Vikings after this season, and he's gonna be coach of the year, would be willing to do a trade for, for just a normal trade.

• 1:34:26Bill Simmons?

  Why would they ever get rid of Kevin O'Connell?

• 1:34:28Speaker 03

  I don't think they will. I think all that stuff that's out there, like, they're gonna step up, they're gonna pay him. But if you're a team, do you offer three first round picks? Do you offer, if you're the Jets? No, you don't even go down that road? You don't even entertain it? No. Because they wouldn't entertain it back or it's

• 1:34:45Bill Simmons?

  Belichick was only worth one first round pick when Kraft, the only great thing Kraft ever did other than keeping the Pats in New England, when he traded a first-rounder for Belichick. I think a coach is worth one first-rounder.

• 1:34:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:34:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. You disagree, Sir Rudy?

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  That's what Sean Payton went for. Yeah.

• 1:34:59Speaker 04

  This reminds me a couple of years ago, it's actually many years ago now. Remember we were having the like, would you rather start your franchise with Brad Stevens or Giannis?

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:35:07Speaker 04

  And we were, people were actually like, oh man, Brad Stevens, you know, culture, like you never know.

• 1:35:12Bill Simmons?

  Giannis wasn't quite Giannis yet at that point. It's a good argument though.

• 1:35:15Speaker 04

  I love, I love K O C, but that's, that's, that's insane.

• 1:35:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah. One pick? Would you trade, what do the Jets have? Like the ninth pick, 10th pick?

• 1:35:23Speaker 03

  Jets have the seventh pick in the draft.

• 1:35:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 04

  That's, that seems intense.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  It's a lot.

• 1:35:29Speaker 04

  Real quick, Traeger.

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Speaker 04

  The Rex Ryan thing, is that, is that a thing?

• 1:35:35Speaker 03

  I'll tell you, it happened today. It happened. So Rex flew down to Palm Beach and he and Woody and Tannenbaum like a really strong bond and Rex comes in there and he basically is like, guys, I don't know if you're going to give me this job. There is no person on this earth who wants to be the head coach of the New York Jets more than I do. There is no person that wants to turn this organization around more than I do. I have been involved with the game on ESPN. I watch it all. Like I want to be the New York Jets head coach. I don't want to be the Saints coach. I don't want to be the Dolphins coach. I don't, I want to be the Jets head coach.

• 1:36:16Speaker 03

  And I think it was refreshing for them to hear somebody like, not just come in and be like, all right, yeah, no, I want to be a head coach of an NFL team and here's my credentials. Like Rex went about it a totally different way. And you will not find someone more passionate in that interview. Will he get the job? No, I don't think he's going to get the job, but I do think. It was worthwhile for him to go down there and I think they enjoyed the meeting at the very least because they can't meet with anyone else in person anyway, but it wasn't a waste of their time. And Rex gave him a little bit of fire today. And I think they appreciated what Rex had to say because there's no one else who's gonna come in there and say, and honestly mean it with the passion that Rex does, like, I don't want to be the coach of the Patriots. I don't want to be the coach of the Lions. I want to be the coach of the Jets. And I want to work with you guys.

• 1:36:58Bill Simmons?

  Maybe they should schedule more interviews with people who have no chance of being an NFL coach, but really want to coach the Jets. Like, are there other people? Are there actors? Could Larry David go in there and say?

• 1:37:09Speaker 03

  Larry David, Bobby Canavale, Ralph Macchio. They've got a nice little group of Jets fans.

• 1:37:14Speaker 04

  Shalhoub has had a good run here. Maybe, you know, you get him to bring him in.

• 1:37:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Shalhoub could do it. That'd be great.

• 1:37:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could do it. That's it. When are we, when are we getting him on the pod, Bill? Like, what's the, like, that has to be happening, is it not?

• 1:37:25Bill Simmons?

  Apparently he's overseas and hopefully we will get him later this week.

• 1:37:29Speaker 03

  There's no one who-

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  If he doesn't come, I'm gonna be super upset.

• 1:37:32Speaker 03

  Seriously, there's no one who, I mean, I think he's following like, three people and you're one of them.

• 1:37:36Bill Simmons?

  Just come on the pod, Shalhoub.

• 1:37:37Speaker 03

  Like, what are we doing?

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  All right, thanks, Sarudy. I got one more thing for Schrager.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  Is it about your Netflix cameo last night or not?

• 1:37:44Bill Simmons?

  No, no, no.

• 1:37:45Speaker 03

  I thought you handled that great, dude.

• 1:37:48Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:37:49Speaker 03

  What else do you want? What do you just want it to do?

• 1:37:50Bill Simmons?

  Everyone in my life felt I handled it perfectly.

• 1:37:52Speaker 03

  Very impressed.

• 1:37:53Bill Simmons?

  Shreks, good to see you. Thanks.

• 1:37:55Speaker 03

  You're the man, dude. Thank you.

• 1:37:58Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the pod. Thanks to Cousins Al. Thanks to Sarudy and Kyle and Gahaw for producing as always. I'm gonna be back probably with a two-parter on Thursday, at least a one-parter, hopefully a two-parter, assuming that everything goes well in Southern California on Tuesday and on Wednesday. I'm trying to be super optimistic. So, next time you see me, Thursday. And then maybe re-watchables on Wednesday, too, if we can do that Mailbag podcast on Wednesday that we're hoping for. So, let's hope for some good weather, some decent weather, some non-windy weather in the next two days. And hopefully,

• 1:38:39Bill Simmons?

  when you hear my voice on Thursday, things are a little bit better and we're headed forward here in Southern California. Stay safe, everybody. See you later in the week.

• 1:39:12Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes? Post-workout recovery is a big factor.

• 1:39:56Bill Simmons?

  Core Power Protein Shakes help you keep going after your workout with high-quality protein to build muscle and electrolytes to help hydrate. It's all you need for your recovery in one bottle. Available in 26 and 42 gram protein options to pick what works best for you. Visit corepower.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures WildHorse9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minneh Sharon and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival.

• 1:40:41Bill Simmons?

  Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. WildHorse9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss WildHorse9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.