What The Story Of Jacob And Esau Teaches About Sibling Rivalry

What does the oldest sibling feud in the Bible have to do with the argument you keep having with the person you love most? In this lecture, delivered improbably in the city of sin, Jordan Peterson takes the story of a twin who cheats his own brother out of everything and uses it to map a single idea he calls aiming up. Starting from something as ordinary as a fight with your spouse that never seems to resolve, Peterson descends, level by level, into what he argues is really going on underneath: a buried betrayal, a broken trust, and a choice between the desire to win and the harder work of peace. Along the way he explains why the cynic is not the intelligent one in the room, why the wealth of an entire nation rests on something as fragile as a handshake, and how a crook with no reason to hope becomes the father of nations. What he arrives at is not a sermon but a description, of the one decision available to you in any moment, no matter how far down you have fallen, and of the strange acceleration that begins the instant you make it. This lecture was filmed in Las Vegas, Nevada, on May 19, 2024. Unlock the ad-free experience of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast and dive into exclusive bonus content on DailyWire+. Start watching now: http://dwpluspeterson.com/yt ALL LINKS: https://feedlink.io/jordanbpeterson // LINKS // Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com Books - https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/books/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 2:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  Pretty good crowd for the city of sin. It's very amusing to, in a strange and unfathomable way, to walk down the strip and to see the big billboards and to see all the entertainers in Vegas, one after another, and then to see the We Who Wrestle With God tour pop up. It's like unbelievably preposterous and impossible happening. And so, and it was also funny. See, I hadn't remembered what Nikala said when she came out here, that I was too controversial for Vegas.

• 2:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  I mean, really? I mean, what are you supposed to make of that? How can you be too controversial for Las Vegas? Not just organized crime, that's no problem. Gambling, no problem. Peterson, no bloody way. That's so funny. It's so ridiculous. Anyways, I'm very pleased to be here. It's very good of you all to come, and I'm looking forward to tonight. So I want to start with a little story. I had a lot of fun with my kids, well, for their whole life,

• 3:24Jordan B. Peterson?

  but I had a particular amount of fun with them when they were little. And I used to teach them silly tricks. And when they were very, very little, one of the things I taught them was, I'd ask them which way was up, and they'd just point right away. And I thought, that's good, that's good. No one's ever going to be able to accuse my children of not knowing which way is up. And they knew that when they were like, early as they could point. Which way's up? That way. Great, good work, kid. Pat them on the head for that. Good work. Okay, so that's what we're going to talk about tonight. Which way's up? And what does that mean? Because it means something.

• 4:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so, we're going to get to the bottom of that, or as close as I can manage, and we're going to see what the consequence of that is. So I'm going to start with a story. So this tour is an explication and a further exploration of the themes in my newest book, which is called We Who Wrestle With God. And it will be published in November, so this is like the world's earliest book tour. And it's been very useful because I've been editing and finishing the book well on tour, and that meant that I could wrestle with the ideas that are in it like in real time, every night, or three nights a week, let's say.

• 4:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  And I'm writing otherwise, and then also trying out the ideas, kind of like a stand-up comedian in a way, seeing what lands and what doesn't, seeing how I can communicate, what works with the communication. That's extremely useful. Because if you listen to the audience, which is again what stand-up comedians do, the audience tells you what works, right? Mostly, well, with two ways, I would say, fundamentally. With their silence, because if what you're saying is landing, then everyone is gripped by it, and they don't even rustle, like there's no sound. And so, that's good.

• 5:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  Or the alternative would be an enthusiastic response, you know? And it's very useful and informative and challenging and interesting and playful to try to stay in the place where that's always happening, right? And you know, that's a collective thing, isn't it? Because in order to make that happen, you need one audience full of people, and they have to be gripped by the same thing, obviously, because it's happening to all of them. And that's a dynamic that exists between the person who's speaking and the audience. So that's a conversation. And it's a dialogue, a dialogos.

• 6:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's an exchange of information. Obviously, I'm speaking, but you're listening, and you're listening individually and collectively. And that's part of the celebration that we're engaged in in this event, the stage show, the play, the performance, all of that. And there's a spirit that goes along with that. And if you pay sufficient attention, then you can, what would you say? You can embody that spirit more and more accurately, and then everything works, and that's fun.

• 7:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's ridiculously entertaining to try that. And so, that's always what I'm trying to do in these shows. And tonight, as I said, we're going to talk about aiming up. Now, what I, I have a, I wouldn't say it's a technique, because it's not a technique. It's not something you do automatically and unthinkingly. It's more like the essence of the lecture, let's say. A lecture, a good lecture, a great lecture, hopefully, isn't the attempt to convince an audience or to force them to believe something,

• 7:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  or even to entice them, let's say, into believing it, or to tell the audience what you know, or to deliver a talk, or any of those things. What you want to do, especially in a situation like this, is you want to engage in an active, well, active dramatization of wrestling. I always have a question that I want to address in mind, usually a single question, because that helps with the focus. And then, the goal of the lecture that emerges out of that question is to try to answer the question.

• 8:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  So the first thing that you have to do for that to be real is it has to be a real question, and it has to matter. And so, it matters to me what it means to aim up. And that's a very mysterious thing. And so, you can inquire into the meaning of that endlessly. And I have inquired into that a lot, but then I have another opportunity tonight to push that further. And then, I have the privilege of being able to do that while also seeing if I can bring everybody along for the ride. And so, that's a good deal, and that's a fun challenge. And the grip of the lecture is, what would you say?

• 9:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  The audience's curiosity about whether or not that'll land, whether it'll happen, right? And whether that'll be real? Because you want to see a real performance, a kind of a paradoxical thing, a real performance, but that's what you want to see, and you need that. So, okay, so let's start with a story, because this is about stories. The book, We Who Wrestle With God, is about stories. And the biblical library that I'm assessing in this book

• 9:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  is a collection of stories, a collection of characterizations, in a sense akin to what you would experience if you went and saw a movie or if you read a work of fiction, and fell into the characters that were being presented to you. And these are very deep stories, unfathomably deep, I would say. And we'll string together a sequence of them tonight to investigate this idea of aiming up. So I'll start with this story of Jacob and Esau. And it's a typical Old Testament story in some ways.

• 10:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  There's a hero, Jacob, and his foil, who's actually the better man in some ways, Esau, his brother. And Jacob, like many of the Old Testament patriarchs, is not a very good person when he starts. And that's a relief, actually, if you think about it with some degree of humility, because...

• 11:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  Si el progreso hacia adelante era limitado a aquellos que eran buenos, ninguno de nosotros tendría la oportunidad. Porque comenzamos todo. Comenzamos fallidos y propensos a errores. Alguno de eso es simplemente una cuestión de ignorancia, porque ¿qué diablos sabes cuando empiezas algo nuevo? Pero un buen poco de eso es una consecuencia de la mirada despierta y la negación de aprender y la orgullo y los pecados clásicos, podrías decir. Y es una cosa ser ignorante, y eso no es una gran cosa, pero es otra cosa ser... ¿Cómo dirías? Consignarte a la perdition por dolor. ¿Qué tal eso?

• 11:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y no hay escasez de sufrimiento que emerge como consecuencia de eso. Eso vale a saber también. Ahora, Jacob al principio está luchando con su hermano. Ahora, este es un motivo muy antiguo, la batalla entre dos hermanos. Está constantemente retratado en historias modernas, en películas modernas en particular. Quiero decir, la dinámica entre Batman y el Joker, por ejemplo. Ha habido mucho rato hecho de eso en los últimos años. La guerra entre Harry Potter y Voldemort, o Harry Potter y Malfoy, quien es como...

• 12:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es la versión junior de Satanás, digamos. O la... O la batalla entre Superman y Lex Luthor. La noción de que hay un antítesis entre dos patrones de ser, uno heroico y uno villano, es una idea extremadamente antigua. Y también es la base para un muy grande número de historias que encontramos atractivas. Queremos ver al buen tipo contra el mal tipo. Y queremos investigar la naturaleza del mal tipo. Podríamos incluso ver un película solo sobre un mal tipo. ¿Por qué?

• 13:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, para algunas personas, porque es un modelo de papel. Pero eso no es el enfoque sabio. El enfoque sabio es ver al mal tipo para que sepas quién diablos es, para ver cuánto podrías ser como él, para ver cómo ese patrón deteriora y degenera, para ver si puedes entender por qué, para que desarrollas suficiente sabiduría para que no hagas eso. ¿Verdad? Así que un buen mal tipo es un ejemplo salutario. Y así puedes imaginar también que hay diferentes profundidades de mal tipo con el tipo casual que podrías conocer todos los días en una drama relativamente creíble y realista representando un nivel de análisis con respecto a lo malo

• 13:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  y una figura más como el Joker, quien en la serie de Batman en particular, particularmente interpretado por Heath Ledger, digamos, es el mal tipo que es tan malo que ni siquiera quiere ganar. Su victoria es perder todo, incluyendo a sí mismo y todo lo que lo rodea. Y así es... Es una representación de... del camino hacia abajo, digamos, que cruza el arca típico. Es... Hay una forma de... Hay una forma de lo ultimate, sobre eso. Ves lo mismo en la figura de Voldemort, digamos, y de Harry Potter, o la figura de Sauron en El Señor de los Rincos. Sauron es como con su ojo de todo lo que ve. Es como el dios del estado totalitario.

• 14:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  Sabes, y los comunistas chinos están construyendo el ojo de todo lo que ve de Sauron. Quiero decir, la imaginación literaria es muy... ¿Cómo dirías? Muy sabio cuando se trata de representar esas cosas. Necesitas el ojo de todo lo que ve del estado para monitorear a la gente que no atiende a su propio desarrollo moral. Y así, en la ausencia de, digamos... Esta es una forma de verlo. En la ausencia del establecimiento de una relación entre dios y cada individuo, en la ausencia de esa relación, que permite una especie de licencia hedonista y immature, necesitas una sustitución que sea el ojo tiránico del estado. ¿Verdad?

• 15:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así es muy valioso saber, es que el costo de no apuntar es que vas al cien por ciento bajo el dominio de un estado totalitario de todo lo que ve. Y parte de la razón de eso es que... Bueno, lo pidió. ¿Verdad? Estoy muy serio, como si pidiere eso con tu propia estupidez. Si no... Bueno, piensa en ello, puedes pensar en ello de manera muy directa. Si no tomas responsabilidad por tu propia gobernanza, por la gobernanza de tu comunidad, alguien va a vaciar esa oportunidad y también ser invitado a jugar ese papel. Y si no eres tú porque tienes las estupidez de un esclavo hedonista, digamos,

• 16:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  entonces va a ser alguien que es contemprante de ti debido a tu constante proclividad por el mal comportamiento idiota y que va a clavarte en ti con todo el poder a su disposición. Y así, esa es una idea muy mala. Esa es una de las consecuencias, digamos, de no apuntar. El enemigo del hedonista, el enemigo del hedonismo immature es el... Es el tirano. Y eso es... ¿Cómo dirías? Ese es otro patrón de la batalla eterna entre los hermanos hostiles. Y así, eso es útil saber. Ese es un patrón eterno.

• 16:55Speaker 05

  Peterson Academy.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Peterson Academy. Peterson Academy.

• 16:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  Se llama Peterson Academy.

• 16:59Speaker 06

  Peterson Academy. Si ganas una educación real.

• 17:02Speaker 05

  Con profesores seleccionados de las principales universidades en todo el mundo.

• 17:07Speaker 07

  Tras reunir a los mejores profesores, asegurándose de que no sean censurados de ninguna manera, dando el público la recompensa y el aprecio que merecen. Y eres sincero con tu palabra. Te di la autonomía intelectual absoluta. Lo he tenido a través de cada curso.

• 17:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  Pensamos que podemos ofrecer a la gente una educación de nivel universitario de alta calidad por menos de dos mil dólares.

• 17:24Speaker 05

  Gracias, Jordan. Es honestamente brillante. No puedo esperar a inscribirme. Lo haré justo después de esto.

• 17:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  Fun, Joe.

• 17:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  Jacob y Esau luchan en el vientre. Así es como profundo llega su lucha. Ahora, ¿por qué es esto? Bueno, hay una variedad de razones por las que esta historia rinda verdad. La primera es que la rivalidad de hermanos es muy rara. Es un patrón común en las familias. Y es más probable que se fusionen entre hermanos del mismo sexo, obviamente, porque están compitiendo por el mismo trozo de recursos, podrías decir. Y es aún más probable que sea el caso si nacen relativamente cerca. Si quieres tener hijos y minimizar la probabilidad de intensa rivalidad de hermanos,

• 18:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  es bueno separarlos por alrededor de tres años. Ahora, no estoy diciendo que debes hacer eso porque hay un costo a la separación también. Es posible, por ejemplo, que los hermanos no sean tan cerca. Solo estoy diciendo que en esa dimensión unitaria, la razón de que tres funciona, tal vez, es porque un tres años no es más un niño, un tres años es social. Y así, cuando llega un bebé nuevo a la casa, el tres años puede establecer una relación con el bebé y eso puede ser, ¿cómo dirías? Un pago por no ser más un niño, ¿verdad? Porque el problema, si eres el niño mayor y aparece un niño nuevo, es... Bueno, ya no eres el niño.

• 19:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así, la parte de atención de los cerdos, al menos por un tiempo, no va a ir a ti. Y la atención, eso es como el recurso valioso ultimate. No hay nada más valioso que la atención. Por eso los anunciantes le pagan. ¿Verdad? Y así, puede haber una lucha muy intensa por la atención parental en familias. Ahora, los padres que están despiertos pueden regular eso, pero necesita un poco de negociación cuidadosa. ¿Verdad? Así que la rivalidad puede salir de la mano. Bueno, esto es lo que pasa con Jacob y Esau.

• 19:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Pero algo más profundo pasa también porque la madre de Jacob, Rachel, y el padre de Jacob, Isaac, no están de acuerdo en cuál hijo es el correcto. Y así, Jacob es la favorita de su madre y Esau es la favorita de su padre. Y tienen algunas características de personalidad interesantes estos dos que se avecinan con eso también. Así que Esau es una especie de pobre herviente. Es muy masculino. Vive afuera, no le gusta la tenta. Está fuera de la caza constantemente. Es un hombre. Y su padre particularmente lo admira.

• 20:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y lo admira parte porque Jacob Esau es un cazador y proveedor y, bueno, porque Isaac también es masculino y una cierta cantidad de favoritismo cae en Esau en relación con el padre. Mientras que Rachel le gusta a Jacob mejor. Jacob es más de un... Es más de un hijo de la madre. Es más de un hijo de la madre. Verdad, verdad, cuéntalo. Y no estoy diciendo eso necesariamente porque eso muestra una debilidad en su carácter que Esau no comparte. Esau tiene las fallas de alguien que es más explorador. Mas explorador en la forma masculina. Tiene tendencia a ser impulsiva, por ejemplo.

• 21:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y no está tan preocupado por el pensamiento abstracto, ¿cómo dirías? Es menos preocupado con el pensamiento abstracto y no piensa tanto en el futuro. Y eso en realidad... Eso es una falla. Y eso también lo hace susceptible a las machinaciones de Jacob, quien es más serpenteado, más capaz de planear y que conspira con su propia madre para tomar lo que es justamente Esau. Así que Esau es el primero nacido. Por segundo, Jacob y Esau son primos. Y eso es una de las cosas que aumenta la probabilidad de rivalidad de hermanos,

• 22:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  porque ambos aparecen al mismo tiempo. Jacob literalmente se aferró a la pierna de Esau cuando nacen. Y su nombre significa algo aproximativo. Él que agarra la pierna. Y eso es un arcaico...

• 22:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  Characterization of jealousy and envy. And so Jacob is a usurper. Esau is the firstborn. That means that he is entitled, according to the archaic laws, to a double portion of the inheritance. Now, many archaic societies were set up so that the firstborn got the lion's share of an inheritance. And the reason for that was that if you kept dividing up property, for example, or wealth, equally among siblings, you did that for multiple generations. Everybody ends up with like two square feet of land and, you know, a few pennies and everyone starves. And so one solution to that is to give the bulk of the resources to one person and let everyone else know they have to fend for themselves

• 23:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  and that that's not cruel. It's just custom. It's not, there's nothing personal in it. Right? And so anyways, Esau has this firstborn right and Rachel and Jacob conspire constantly to steal it from him. Right? And so there's a very ugly story there, right? Like seriously, if you, if you think it through, it's a seriously ugly story because you have a relationship between mother and son that's too close. It's a relationship that excludes the other brother plus the father. So that's not a good thing. Then there's a conspiratorial element to it. And then there's this, this twin flaw of character on Jacob's part.

• 23:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  He's a kind of timid. He sticks around the household. He's a mama's boy and he's a conspirer. And on Esau's part, he's a wild kind of adventurer and he's impulsive and foolish. One day Jake Esau comes in from a hunt and he's ravenous from the hunt and Jacob has been sitting at home making porridge and Esau is hungry and impulsively demands some of what Jacob has been cooking. And Jacob says, "Oh, I'm not going to give you any of this unless you turn over your birthright." And Esau, who's a little on the impulsive side, as I said,

• 24:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  and not sufficiently concerned about the future, not, not civilized in that way to be concerned about the future. He agrees. And this is, this is not a good trade. It's not a wise trade. And it, it, it's a way the story highlights the danger of a kind of, well, an otherwise admirable exploratory nature. Like, you know, Esau is a tough guy and he's out there in the wilderness, hunting and, and taking care of himself, provisioning the family. But he lacks the civilized wisdom that would enable him to regulate that exploratory proclivity, courageous exploratory proclivity in light, let's say, of the future.

• 25:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  Because what he does is sacrifice his future, his birthright, right? His inheritance, this is a big deal, for, to gratify what's essentially an immediate whim. It's like he was hungry, but he wasn't starving. It's like it was, he didn't even trade it for like cheesecake. It was like, you know, porridge made out of beans. Stupid deal. So he kind of wandered into it, you know? And I'm sure Jacob and Rachel contented themselves and their conscience with that realization. Typical realization of psychopaths who are trying to justify their crime is, "Well, if he's stupid enough to let us take advantage of him, then he deserves it." Which is a pretty weak defense, but on the other side, Esau is careless.

• 26:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  Now, Isaac tries to reverse this theft. And on his deathbed, he's preparing to bless his sons, which was a custom as well, to provide this final blessing of the father. And he wants to return to Esau much of his birthright. And Rachel and Jacob get wind of this and they conspire once again and, and even more deeply and more consciously. It's really a nasty story. And Isaac sends Esau off to hunt. He says, "I'm going to die, son, and I would like you to find some, get a deer

• 26:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  and, and make me some of the venison that you're so good at providing and I'd appreciate that." So Esau goes off to hunt and then Jacob dresses up like him because his dad's old and blind and hypothetically easy fooled. He puts on some skins that make him hairy like his brother and he mimics Esau's voice. And he tells his father that he's returned from the hunt and Isaac checks him out and he's fooled by the, by the, uh, by this treachery and he delivers the blessing that's meant for Esau to Jacob, which means that Jacob, for the second time, conspires with his mother to steal,

• 27:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  to steal from the firstborn what's rightfully his. So this makes Jacob a usurper, right? A usurper is someone who conspires to take a position of authority that they don't deserve. In The Lion King, Scar is a usurper, right? And the, the Luciferian spirit itself, classically speaking, is a usurper. Because, for example, in The Garden of Eden, when the serpent tempts Eve in the guise of the snake, he does that as Lucifer, so the story goes, to, to overturn the divine order. And he tells human beings that they can become as gods

• 28:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  if they take the right to determine the moral order to themselves. But it's at a deeper level. It's a reflection of what came to be recognized as the rebellion of the Luciferian intellect against the pre-established moral order. It's something like that. And that's echoed in the story of Jacob. So as a usurper, he's unbeknownst to himself, you might say, falling under the sway of this Luciferian impulse to overthrow. And it's in keeping with his personality as tent dweller and scholar because that's a development of the intellect

• 28:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  and the intellect itself has the temptation, constant temptation to be the usurper. That's the Luciferian intellect that flies in the dreadfully wrong direction. And so Jacob and Esau have a fractious relationship and it's characterized by a very intense pattern of betrayal. Dante, who wrote Dante's Inferno, is one of the figures of the classic age, the Renaissance, let's say, classic European age, who, who really formulated much of the modern vision of hell. There's not a lot of description of hell in the biblical stories.

• 29:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  Almost none, virtually none. Virtually no reference to Satan. They're oblique references. They have to be pieced together. Our vision of hell comes primarily from legend, the legends that aggregated around the Bible and the Judeo-Christian tradition and also the accounts of Dante and of Milton. That's where we got a lot of our images of Satan and hell and Satan and Lucifer as rulers of hell. Dante, this is something very interesting to know about Dante's Inferno. It's very useful to know practically.

• 30:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  You know, couples are often loath to engage in conflict. Now, there's a reason for this. Or maybe you're in, loathe to engage in conflict with people that you love or even people that you don't like, you know? But it's more relevant, I would say, in the context of relationships that are intimate. Imagine that you have a pattern of disagreement with your wife that results in sequential frustrations of the same type. Now, she could easily have precisely the same problem with you. This is not a sex type problem in any way. It's a situation that characterizes any intimate relationship. You know, that there's problems that arise in your marriage

• 31:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  and some of them have a, the characteristic of repetition, which means they're more serious problems. And often couples either just bicker stupidly about those problems or they ignore them and let them continue. And there's a reason for that. The reason is, and everyone knows this, you know, if you start to investigate what appears to be a trivial disagreement, generally what happens is tempers start to rise and more profound accusations start to be thrown back and forth and people become defensive. And then... Entonces, los espíritus que no son útiles entran en el diálogo

• 31:50Jordan B. Peterson?

  y uno de los espíritus sería el espíritu de poder que desea dominar para que uno de los partidos en la disputa o el otro se esforzara por la victoria en lugar de claridad y paz. Quieren ganar el argumento, así que usted es correcto. Y ese es un gran problema porque probablemente usted no sea correcto porque ¿quién diablos eres tú? Y segundo, ¿qué pasa con tu esposa? Ella estará allí mañana y como la próxima semana si es que tiene suerte y el año próximo, y así si usted es continuamente perdiéndola porque usted es correcto entonces ella estará continuamente perdiéndose y ese será su compañero.

• 32:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y eso, a menos que quiera ser un tirano con un esclavo, esa es una estrategia bastante estúpida. Y así usted quiere... Bueno, pero usted puede ver la tentación, ¿verdad? Porque a la gente le gusta ser correcto y si usted es correcto entonces usted no tiene que cambiar y eso es una relajación, además usted tiene la mano moral superior y la impulsa a ella a hacer los ajustes, eso es un buen trato para usted aunque no lo sea. Es un terrible trato para usted si usted hace el caso de que usted es correcto y usted no lo es. Eso es realmente un mal trato y también es un mal trato para ella. Ahora, ¿qué pasa si empieza a investigar un problema? Usted sabe, y en lugar de tratar de ganar o ser tentado a evitar

• 33:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  usted realmente empieza a escuchar el otro y usted se esforza en ello. Y esto es difícil, usted quiere, usted va a tener que querer la paz usted va a tener que querer resolver el problema. Lo que pasa es que usted va más profundo en ello, ¿verdad? Y eso es lo mismo que un viaje hacia el infierno de Dante. Así que vea, en la historia del infierno hay niveles de infierno, ¿verdad? Y los niveles externos son una especie de justicia común, usted sabe. Ese es el lugar donde usted está si usted es simplemente su propio idiota diario. Usted sabe, es como, usted no está sufriendo demasiado mal pero no es el paraíso por ningún lado de la imaginación. Y luego imagina que hay capas de infierno tonto que usted podría manifestar

• 33:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  más profundo y más profundo, más y más profundamente que están asociadas con más y más sufrimiento. Y bueno, eso es lo que Dante investiga, ¿verdad? Esta espiral hacia el fondo de las cosas, ¿verdad? ¿Cómo pasan las cosas más fundamentalmente? Ahora Dante puso a los perdedores en el nivel inferior del infierno. ¿Y por qué? Bueno, una de las razones prácticas es que si usted imagina que parte de la razón de que está teniendo una lucha con su esposa o ella con usted es que ni uno de ustedes realmente confía en el sexo opuesto, ¿verdad?

• 34:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y esa es casi la norma. Y no es de extrañar, ¿verdad? Porque las relaciones entre seres humanos son muy fractales y difíciles y usted sabe, tal vez su esposa no tuviera un gran modelo en su padre o tal vez en su padre y su abuelo y tal vez su padre y su abuelo y sus hermanos y todos los hombres con los que salió antes de usted y así ella está un poco herida debido a eso y tal vez usted estaba bajo la palma de su madre o su tía o su novia previa y usted tiene mucho resentimiento acumulado sobre las mujeres y si usted se esforza en todo eso como hace su horrible cabeza horripida manifestarse en su relación a menudo encuentra que en el fondo hay alguna forma de perdedor.

• 35:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y la perdedor es el pecado más profundo en algunos sentidos porque la comunidad está basada en la confianza, ¿verdad? Como realmente lo que usted tiene en su matrimonio es la confianza. Fundamentalmente, ese es el piedra de la relación. Quiero decir, la promesa de la fidelidad, por ejemplo. Usted va a renunciar a todos los demás es una... Es una covenia de confianza, ¿verdad? Y la razón por la que la perdedor es un pecado tan terrible es porque la perdedor viola la confianza y eso significa que abruma el elemento más fundamental de cualquier relación íntima o de otra manera y así amenaza a la comunidad misma.

• 36:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así Dante fue muy sabio en poner a los perdedores justo al lado de Satanás. Y así entonces, si usted se esforza en eso, bueno, primero de todo su persona con la que está luchando no va a querer admitir estas perdedores especialmente si juegan un papel en ellos como hizo Esau, digamos, con Jacob. Muchas veces cuando usted es perdedor, usted es voluntariamente ciego, se prepara y así es vergonzoso volver a lo mismo. Incluso si principalmente usted fue torturado en las manos de alguien más probablemente hizo algunas cosas estúpidas a lo largo del camino para aumentar la probabilidad y eso no es exactamente territorio divertido volver a lo mismo y así usted tiene que hacer esta terrible expedición y excavación

• 36:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  si usted quiere llegar al fondo de, yo diría, cualquier problema. Y mucho de lo que usted hace en la terapia psicológica es exactamente eso. Usted sabe, la gente viene a usted como terapeuta y dicen, "Bueno, soy miserable" y usted dice algo como, "Bueno, ¿qué quiere decir miserable?" Y eso es una larga cuenta porque es un misterio. Como si usted estuviera sufriendo, bueno, ¿qué significa eso? Como, ¿está sufriendo todo el tiempo? ¿Es minuto por minuto? ¿Cuán profundo es? ¿Estás suicida debido a eso? ¿Es debido a que estás enfermo físicamente? ¿O hay algo psicológicamente malo? ¿O tomó algunas decisiones idiotas? ¿O estás enfermo físicamente? Porque eso puede ser cierto. ¿O es algo que es multi代代的 y usted está jugando a lo largo de la vida? ¿O es...? Quién sabe?

• 37:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  Eso es mucho problema. Y luego eso es solo para especificar la naturaleza del sufrimiento. ¿Es mejor a veces y peor a otros momentos? Si es peor a veces, ¿qué hace que sea peor? Si es mejor a veces, ¿por qué es mejor? Quiero decir, eso son meses de discusión, especialmente si usted está hablando con alguien a quien nadie ha escuchado nunca y eso es mucha gente. Y especialmente sobre asuntos privados profundos y eso está ahí en su matrimonio. Usted puede estar 100% seguro de eso. Y por supuesto, es más probable que las cosas que son más troublesome son las cosas que son más probablemente enterradas lo más profundo y tomar la excavación más profunda para desatar y el dolor más alto para rectificar.

• 38:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  Además, no es una cosa fácil de rectificar. Como si su persona o usted hubiera sido perdedor, lo cual es muy probable ¿qué diablos se supone que debe hacer sobre eso? Usted sabe, porque la perdedor podría ser real. Y luego, bueno, si usted es perdedor, ¿debería confiar? Bueno, eso es un poco tonto, ¿no? Una vez quemado, dos veces tonto. Pero entonces, si usted no confía, ¿qué es usted? ¿Sípido, resentido y temor? No, usted no va a tener más relaciones. ¿Usted va a contaminar las relaciones que tiene con su desconfianza? Porque eso parece una mala idea, pero no es como que sea fácil de resolver. Es realmente... Aquí hay una solución. La gente sabia confiar porque son corajosos, ¿verdad? Esto es algo bueno de saber.

• 39:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bueno, porque usted obtiene cines, ¿eh? Y un cynic es una mejora sobre un niño tonto. Como un cynic es un niño tonto que ha sido quemado y ha notado y el cynic dice, "Bueno, todo el infierno puede liberarse y así por qué debería confiar?" Y eso es una mejora sobre la tontura porque la persona tonta confía porque no sabe mejor. Mientras que el cynic piensa, "Bueno, he sido quemado y el mundo está en fuego en muchos sentidos y así debería tener cuidado." Pero entonces, si usted es cínico, bueno, ¿cuál es el problema? Bueno, usted es cínico, ¡ese es un problema! Bueno, es un peso, hombre, ser cínico, ¡ese es un peso! Esta desconfianza que usted tiene en su cara, usted sabe, esta actitud que usted trae a cargo a todos, es como, ¿es usted un serpiente? Porque he conocido a algunas personas antes que parecieran bastante buenas

• 39:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  pero cuando las conocí, todo el infierno se liberó. Y eso es una maldita barrera para poner entre usted y alguien que usted está solo conociendo, ¿verdad? ¿Por qué diablos deberían luchar para superar su desconfianza, garantizada aunque sea? Y así, ¿qué hace usted? Usted confía porque es corajoso. Eso es lo que tiene que hacer en su matrimonio, continuamente, ¿verdad? Usted tiene que decir, "Mira, probablemente usted no es mejor que yo y vamos a herir el otro." Pero no vamos a cerrar y no vamos a parar de extender nuestra mano al otro y vamos a esperar que en consecuencia de esa confianza, que es ahora una forma de coraje vamos a esparcir nuestros pasados patológicos

• 40:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  y nos construiremos en la gente que podría merecer esa confianza. Pero la cosa es que para que eso suceda, usted tiene que extender la mano de confianza para empezar. ¿Verdad? Y así es definitivamente una forma de ambas sabiduría y coraje y es la alternativa correcta para los cines. Es como, "Sí, he sido quemado, pero eso no significa que... he permitido que mi fe se destruyera." ¿Verdad? Y usted puede pensar, "Bueno, eso es estupidez." Es como...

• 41:00Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es es... Tienes que hacer tu camino hacia adelante en el mundo, a pesar de tu ignorancia y a pesar del dolor de la existencia. Y estar dispuesto a hacerlo de la manera más posible no puede definirse como ingenuo o tonto. Porque la alternativa es el infierno, así que esa no es una buena alternativa. Y así es definitivamente el caso, si puedes desarrollar una actitud de confianza sabia. Todavía quieres tener tus ojos abiertos, no quieres ser un pujón, no se supone que seas un tonto. Pero también abres la puerta a un número inmenso de oportunidades si le das una mano de confianza. Parte de la razón por la que tu sociedad es tan rica, en realidad es la definición de rica.

• 41:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  De verdad, es porque el comercio habitual en los Estados Unidos es honesto. Es estancante, como ustedes lo toman por hecho. Es como si fueras a una tienda y asumes que lo que estás obteniendo es un artículo genuino y que en realidad funcionará y que no será venenoso, que no sea contrapartida o de otra manera falsa. Y la persona a la que das el dinero asume que es en realidad dinero y no un cheque que se desbordará o algún tipo de fraude de tarjeta de crédito. Y ambos se van, mejor porque uno de ustedes tiene el dinero y el otro tiene lo que quieren y ¡qué trato! Y piensas, "No hay nada con eso", es como, "Hay mucho con eso, hombre, eso sucede en muy pocos lugares".

• 42:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y todos los lugares donde no sucede son pobres y nunca saldrán de ello. ¿Verdad? Y así cuando el comercio habitual se basa en la confianza, hombre, eres tan rico. Y eso es tan delicado y tan improbable. Sabes, deberías estar siempre considerando eso como el completo milagro que es. Porque todos estamos llenos de serpientes y el hecho de que tu sociedad sea tan bien constituida que la interacción habitual entre comerciantes extraños es la confianza, eso es como un completo y total milagro. Y hay una razón por eso.

• 43:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  Así que sin esa confianza, es esa confianza y el etos lo justifican. Eso es lo que hace que el desierto florezca, sabes. Así que eso es un esfuerzo ético, es el esfuerzo ético con el que la verdadera riqueza es predicada. No tiene nada que ver, en algún sentido fundamental, con la provisión de la Madre Naturaleza. Es un etos, es solo lo mismo dentro de tu matrimonio. Si ambos confían en uno y dices a los otros razón de confianza, hombre, tienes un tesoro. ¿Verdad? Y puedes imaginar incluso que es el tesoro lo que te permite tener un tesoro. Porque una de las cosas, si quieres ser pobre, aquí hay una buena cosa que hacer.

• 43:47Jordan B. Peterson?

  Sólo luchas con tu esposa todo el tiempo en lugar de trabajar y luego serás pobre. Además miserable, sabes, y resentible, eso es otro tipo de pobreza. Sabes, si puedes establecer una relación armoniosa que es genuina, entonces eso te libera de... Bueno, hagas todas las otras cosas que podrías hacer si no te estás torturando a ti mismo y a ella con infestaciones idiotas infinitas. Y así puedes ver justo ahí que hay una relación directa entre una relación predicada en la honestidad y la provisión de lo que necesitas para hacer tu camino por la vida. Y eso también es cierto a nivel social más amplio.

• 44:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Esto no es lo que Jacob hace, es un crujido y su madre es un facilitador. Y conspiran y así es este mal bajo el terreno que despierta a Esau de su lugar justo y confunde y manipula a Isaac en su cama de muerte. No es una buena historia. Esau aprende lo que pasa, ahora está atrapado con ello porque Isaac es un hombre de palabra y ha entregado la bendición equivocada, pero, "C'est la vie". Las palabras, las palabras de la suerte han sido anotadas.

• 45:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y podrías pensar, "Bueno, eso es presupuestamente porque por qué

• 45:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  mantener un contrato escrito con un mentiroso". El etos de ese tiempo fue, "Te aferras a tu palabra sangrienta".

• 45:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y sabes, hay algo que se debe decir de eso y puedes discutir sobre los detalles, pero la idea central es buena. Si el padre tiene su declaración, entonces va a cumplirla. Y así es lo que hace Isaac y Esau es roto de su herencia. Y eso no lo hace feliz, como podrías esperar. Y así decide que va a... Una vez que Isaac muera, va a matar a su hermano. Y así es como es el alcalde de la extensión de la rivalidad de hermanos, ¿verdad? Es una historia muy similar a la historia de Cain y Abel, ¿verdad? Donde los hermanos se involucran en un conflicto matador. Y por supuesto en la historia de Cain y Abel, Abel muere, muere.

• 46:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y Cain sufre las consecuencias de ese asombroso asesinato. Y ese patrón, esa dinámica entre Cain y Abel, esa dinámica de miseria. Cain hace sacrificios imprecisos, no ofrece su mejor, así que falla. Y eso es parte del camino a su intensa miseria que se enferma. Y luego como consecuencia de esa enferma, esa conspiración con el mismo mal, decide que va a matar a Abel, aunque Abel es quien quiere ser y quien más admira. Así que hace eso y esa es una historia muy profunda.

• 46:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  La narrativa del víctima- victimizador que pervence nuestra cultura es una variante de la historia de Cain y Abel. El marxismo es una variante, una variante patológica de la historia de Cain y Abel. Todos los que triunfan son ladrones. Es como, ¿verdad? Solo imagina lo que pasa a una sociedad que define el éxito como el robo. ¿Verdad? ¿Cómo vas a ser exitoso si defines el éxito como el robo? Esa es la insistencia comunista, "La propiedad es el robo". ¡Genial! "El éxito es el robo". Bueno, ves todas las acusaciones levadas en la comunidad judía ahora. Esa es la emergencia de ese odio patológico por el éxito. "Los judíos siempre son canarios en la mina de carbón".

• 47:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  "Realmente no es bueno". "Minoría perenne exitosa". Te odias a ellos con buena conciencia, "Todas las personas que son exitosas son las siguientes". Así que eso es algo que cuidar, no es un buen signo. Y eso es en todas partes en tus campus universitarios en este momento, realmente no es bueno. ¿Por qué? Porque la envidia es un pecado mortal, ¿verdad? ¿Y qué significa eso? Significa que si haces lo suficiente, muirste. Y de alguna manera miserable y sangrienta. Y así es una buena definición de pecado, ¿verdad? "Amañada".

• 48:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  Ok, así que ahora Jacob recibe la luz de la planificación de Esau y piensa, "Me gustaría salir del infierno de aquí". Ahora vale la pena darle crédito a Jacob en este momento, no es muy viejo. Y así es joven y tonto y así quieres tener algo de simpatía por él porque eras joven y tonto y tal vez ahora eres viejo y tonto. Y probablemente tengas tus proclivities temperamentales en la dirección falsa y pecada. Y es útil saber que así es como se establece la historia. Sabes que Jacob comienza su viaje como una persona muy defectuada. Ok, ¿por qué es eso bueno? Porque eres muy defectuoso.

• 48:59Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así, si hay esperanza para Jacob, dada su terrible comienzo y su comportamiento conmoción, bueno, tal vez hay esperanza para ti. Y así, ¿qué hace Jacob cuando se va? Ok, bueno, ahora puedes imaginar, "Se va", bueno, eso significa que se va a casa. Así que esa es una decisión de madurez, aunque tenga que salir. Muchas veces cuando la gente se va a casa, sabes, cuando son adolescentes, adolescentes mayores, el tipo de gente que se va en una flotilla de problemas, tal vez con una lucha. Es como, "Es hora de salir del infierno de aquí". Bueno, ¿qué hay de la lucha? La mano tiránica demasiado pesada del padre, demasiado facilitador por parte de la madre. Los pecados idiotas del juvenil que es resentible.

• 49:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  Lo que sea, se va, eso es lo que pasa a Jacob y eso es lo que pasa a la mayoría de nosotros. Sabes, la separación, la separación que constituye el primer paso en la madurez no tiene que ser suave y a menudo no lo es. Y así Jacob, de todos modos Jacob al menos se va. Y obviamente no bajo las mejores circunstancias, pero podemos imaginar que tal vez está relajado de salir de lo que son las imaginaciones de su madre manipuladora. Porque ni siquiera sabemos de la historia cuánto de esta decisión era Jacoba y cuánto de ella era Rachel. Y nunca sabes eso en una familia, ¿sabes? Y así los niños pueden ser entusiasmados por sus padres y pueden ir con ellos o rechazarlo también.

• 50:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y así es muy comprensible, en cualquier caso Jacob se va. Y así es una buena cosa, toma el paso hacia el mundo y luego toma una decisión. Y esta es una decisión clave y realmente vale la pena comprender. Decide que va a apuntar hacia arriba. Ok, ¿qué significa eso? Bueno, hagámoslo muy concreto y práctico. ¿Y qué dirías? Inmediatamente reconocible y creable.

• 50:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Todos sabemos, gente que ha llevado una vida bastante profligante...

• 51:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  This is likely true of virtually everyone sitting in this audience, who have decided at different times in their life that they're going to stop doing the stupid things that they're doing, and they're going to try to, what? To aim up! Okay, so that seems like something that you can do, right? You can not be doing things correctly, and you can be suffering the consequences of that along with the people around you, but then you can decide that that's not... Maybe that's not optimal, something like that. Maybe there's something wrong with the way you're conducting yourself. That's what happens when people try to escape from an addiction or a gambling habit or something like that. It's like, "Maybe I'm doing something wrong here."

• 51:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  Okay, two decisions. "Maybe I'm doing something wrong." That's kind of like a confession. "And maybe I could try to be better." Okay, so what is it? What happens when you decide to try to be better? Well, you're... You're, what would you say? You're taking a step forward in faith. Well, what's the faith? Well, it's kind of twofold. The first bit of faith is, "There's something that's better." And that's not so self-evident. You know, lots of people who have a criminal bent, let's say, or manipulative bent, they justify that by saying, "Well, there's no real evil or good, you know. It's just a matter of power. It's a matter of opinion. It's all morally relative." And if you object to what I'm doing when I steal your car, for example,

• 52:33Jordan B. Peterson?

  it's like, "Well, property is theft, buddy, so get over it." You know, and you made your money by exploiting, and you got your car, and I'm just... returning the favor, let's say. So... When you decide that you're going to aim up, you've agreed provisionally that there's a moral framework to the world, and that you, at least in some way, are not on the right side of the equation. Right? Maybe that happens when you're addicted to alcohol and you hit rock bottom and you think, "Oh my God, you know, enough of this. I gotta do something different. I gotta change." And so there's the second part of the faith.

• 53:19Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's like, not only now do you understand that there's an "up," something better than what you're doing, something less hellish than what you're doing, but you've also decided to risk the proposition that you are the sort of person that could, in principle, aim up. Right? So it's a twofold faith. And why faith? Well, you don't have much evidence that that's the sort of person you are because you wouldn't be in the predicament you're in if that was the case. And you didn't really believe in "up" to begin with because why the hell were you aiming down? And so it's quite a radical transformation. Now, the question that arises is like, "What exactly is the nature of this transformation?"

• 54:02Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, I've tried to take this apart as a clinician. Let's imagine that you tried to... decided to aim up. You're going to rescue yourself from the pit you dug insofar as you're capable of doing that. Well, how might you do that? Because you're blind and you're corrupt, and so what the hell do you know even about what "up" is? Right? So that's a big problem. You're all morally confused. How do you take the first step? Well, generally, there's a prayer that I formulated that sort of goes along with this. This is a good prayer. If you want a prayer that'll be answered, this is a good one. "What stupid thing am I doing, or did do, that increased the probability that

• 54:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  this hellish situation is upon me? What stupid thing did I do that I might be willing to try not to do again?" It's a very particular kind of prayer, right? Because it's, first of all, the admission that maybe you had something to do with it. And second, the admission that, "Well, you might have had something to do with it, but maybe you're not going to be willing to change that. But maybe there's some little bloody thing you could do that you would do." It's a useful technique, by the way, if you're having an argument with your wife or your husband. This actually works very well. It's like, maybe it's an intractable argument, you know, and tempers are flaring. You could return to your corners, and you could sit on the edge of your bed, let's say,

• 55:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  and you could aim heavenward and you could say to yourself, "I know she's wrong, like she always is. I know I'm right." Or at least 95% right. But maybe, despite my perfection, there's something I did that increased the probability of this miserable situation. You know, some little thing, obviously. And... Then if you allow the revelation to occur, some little memory will come up about some bloody stupid thing that you managed, maybe a long time ago, that set the stage for this particular bit of trouble. And then you could go tell your wife that. And maybe she can do the same.

• 56:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  And then you're a lot happier with each other because neither of you are right, and both of you contributed, and you both admitted it, and maybe there's something you could do about it. And so, if you want to solve a hard problem, it's a good idea to start with yourself. And even if you still think you're 95% right, well, at least you've opened the door that she could be 5% right, and that's better than you were. It's better positioning than you had before you tried the exercise. And you know, there's something to know about that, too. Painful as it is to admit that you're wrong, and so you might say, "Well, why should I even bother?" It's like, well, maybe you wouldn't have to be wrong again. That's a good deal. So this is one of the advantages

• 56:58Jordan B. Peterson?

  to the notion of soul-searching, abiding by conscience and, let's say, confession. It's like, why look at your own sins? Well, if they're producing misery, unnecessary misery, it's a good definition of sin, and you could figure out how you're contributing to that, painful as that realization is likely to be, then maybe you could stop. And you wouldn't have to replicate the errors in the future, and that particular slice of hell wouldn't make its appearance anymore. And that is what happens if you go down Dante's Inferno to the bottom when you're having a conflict with your wife or someone that you love,

• 57:41Jordan B. Peterson?

  and you get to the bottom of things and you sort it out. Right? You change, and they change, and hopefully, you both change in a manner that makes that pathway not necessary anymore. And that's a form of "up," and that's a good deal. And so, if you extend your contemplation of that, you might come to understand that the more soul-searching you do, and the more you can attend to your own sins, let's say, the more you admit, that's humility, to where you might have gone wrong, the higher the probability that you could set things right. And maybe that payoff would be worth the trouble of having to do that painful investigation. Right? And so, that's worth knowing.

• 58:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's like, "Well, why should I admit that I'm wrong?" It isn't exactly the admission, although that's necessary. It's more like, "God, if I could discover where I was wrong, oh, then maybe I could get back on the right road." This is exactly the opposite, by the way, of what the Pharaoh does when Moses comes to tell them, tyrant, that he's to let the enslaved people of Israel go to worship him in the desert, right? That's the words God uses for Moses. The tyrant, instead of noting his error, which in this case would be the vicious enslavement of the Jews, a particularly ungrateful thing to do because they were great benefactors of Egypt,

• 59:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  not so... in times not so much previous, he just doubles down. Right? And that is the alternative in an argument. The alternative to trying to figure out why you're the idiot is doubling down and insisting that you're right. Well, so what happens to the Pharaoh when he insists that he's right? Well, he gets a plague. It's like, "Well, do you understand that?" It's like, "What happens to you if you're wrong and you insist that you're right?" Well, if being wrong made you suffer, and now you're even insisting more directly that you were right, a plague is going to visit you. And theoretically, you could learn from that, but you won't if you're a tyrant, and then you'll double down even harder and use whatever magic tricks are at your disposal

• 59:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  to show how you're right, which is what the Pharaoh does, and another plague will come. And if that doesn't teach you, then a worse plague will come. And there's no end to that. Well, there's an end in the Egyptian case. The destruction of the future. That's the firstborn, that's the last plague. The destruction, not only of the present, but the future. So that's not very much fun. And then the utter destructive chaos of the Red Sea, which is a flood of destructive blood. And that's the final destination for the tyranny that won't admit to its own error. So unless you want to end up there, which seems like a bad plan,

• 1:00:40Jordan B. Peterson?

  then maybe what you want to do is figure out what you're contributing to the situation on the off-chance that you could stop being a delusional tyrant and in the hopes that you could learn to negotiate in this dialogical manner and move yourself upward. Okay, so now, we have Jacob. He leaves home, and he decides that he... It dawns on him, you might say, that he wasn't that good a guy, and that Esau kind of has a point. In his murderous rage. And maybe he's away from his mother, and so he wakes up a little bit and he thinks, "Like you think when you make a change."

• 1:01:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  You think, "Maybe something new could be born in me. Maybe I could be a different person." And so, how is that signified in the text? He builds an altar to God. Now, I don't want to explain that completely, yet, but I can make some hints in that direction. He makes a sacrifice. Okay, so imagine that you're trying to improve. What do you sacrifice? Some stupid thing you value that's impeding your progress. So every bit of progress is going to be marked by a sacrifice, right? When you become an adult, you put away childish things. You grow up. What does it mean to grow up?

• 1:02:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  It means to sacrifice your immaturity, to sacrifice your self-centeredness in this attempt to aim upward. And Jacob, at least, he marks the decision with this building of an altar. Well, that was a good thing for those archaic people to do, because they had a ritual to signify the willingness to sacrifice properly and transform. We don't really have that, and that's a really bad thing. You know, I don't know, the Catholics have it a bit, because you can go to church and confess, and then at least you've told someone what you've done wrong and informed them of your intent to improve, and you kind of made it real that way. But if you don't have anyone to tell, and you can barely tell yourself,

• 1:02:48Jordan B. Peterson?

  it's not that easy to formulate a conviction that's going to transform you. We're very bad at that in our society. But, you know, people do decide to aim upward. Okay, so what do you do when you aim upward? Blind as you might be? Well, practically speaking, we might say, "I don't think that anyone is so lost, ever, that they're unable to see that some of the things they're doing are wrong." Right? You can imagine someone's moral compass being dreadfully askew, but the probability that they're aware of their most egregious current errors is still quite high. And then, you might also hope, and I think this is true, unless you're totally lost,

• 1:03:33Jordan B. Peterson?

  and, you know, the Judeo-Christian promise is that you're never that lost. Right? There's hope for everyone, no matter what dire straits they might be in, even if they're in hell itself, so to speak. Like Jonah was when he refused the commandment of God to say what he knew to be true.

• 1:03:55Jordan B. Peterson?

  You start, perhaps, by deciding not to do some of the things that you are doing that you know to be wrong. So that first bit of upward aim is something like a prohibition, right? It's "Thou shalt not," like a commandment. All the commandments, virtually all the commandments, are things you should not do. That's sort of the first step in moral striving. You know, maybe you realize that, I don't know, all that methamphetamine, it's just not doing you any good. And so, what's the rule? Well, you're going to try to stop, or maybe you lie, or maybe you cheat, or God only knows. Whatever your temptation is, there's lots of them. It's like, you can see that some of them are, are what?

• 1:04:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  They're stopping your progress forward, they're hurting the people around you. Now, maybe you're willing to put up with that, because you were in the past, but, like I said, now and then people come to a realization. It's like, "Maybe I could change."

• 1:04:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  And they, they make that decision, and that's a step towards up. And that's an interesting thing, because it implies that there is an up. Okay, so now what happens to Jacob? Well, he has this dream, and everyone knows about this dream. He dreams of Jacob's ladder, and he sees this staircase. I imagine it as a spiral. A staircase that spirals up and disappears into the highest conceivable place, and that the angels of the Lord descend on that to deliver messages to earth and to bring messages back up the hierarchy to God. And so, what kind of vision is that?

• 1:05:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, it's an entrancing vision, which is why we remember it thousands of years later. But it's also an ancient vision. It's the same vision as Mount Sinai or Mount Horeb. It's the same vision as the pyramid. It's, it's, it's the same vision as the tree, the tree Idrasil, the tree of the ancient Scandinavians that the Scandinavian shaman climbed to commune with the spirits of their ancestors when they entered the divine realm. It's the same as the stock in the story of Jack and the Beanstalk, where Jack can rise out of the earthly realm into that, along the axis that unites heaven and earth,

• 1:06:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  to find the treasure that lurks at the highest possible place. This is a very old idea. It's tens of thousands of years old, that there's a structure that unites the profane realm and the divine realm, and that there is a, the possibility of communication between those realms if the doorway is open. And things, Jacob opened the door, because he decided that he was going to aim up. Okay, so now we've got to think about that, aim up. Okay.

• 1:06:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Like I said, that implies that there's an up. All right, so imagine now, imagine someone on a moral journey upward, and the first thing they do is they stop doing some of the stupid things that they're doing. Right? They discipline themselves to some degree. And what's the consequence of that? Well, their, the scales fall a bit from their eyes, right? So, once you stop blinding yourself, you can see better. And so, what does that mean? Well, it means that your moral compass is set more accurately, and maybe you can see more subtle examples of the foolish things that you're doing, that were, that you were blind to to begin with,

• 1:07:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  and so your ability to see up improves. And so, maybe you're smart, and you make the sacrifices that are attendant on that new realization, and what happens is you can see even a little better. Now, the story of Jacob and the story of Abraham are both stories of that sort. So what happens to Abraham once he leaves the safety of his father's tent and goes out into the world for his adventure? Is that he faces an ever-expanding field of opportunities, right? And each of which is marked by a sacrifice that is more costly. Okay, so what does that mean? Well, that's your life.

• 1:08:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  If you're, if you're aiming up, is that as you mature and improve and your vision clears, the opportunities that avail themselves to you will grow. But as they grow, more will be required from you, because as you have more at hand,

• 1:08:42Jordan B. Peterson?

  any foolishness that you bring on for the trip is going to trip you up. You know, if you have hardly any responsibility, you can be fairly irresponsible. But if you have weighty and deep responsibilities, you better bloody well get your act together, because the price you pay for the expanded opportunity is the necessity for improved, for more wisdom, right? Improved vision on the moral dimension. And so, Abraham, that's, Abraham decides to follow that pathway, and while God offers him a remarkable deal, he, God offers him, says, "If you take that path,

• 1:09:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  the path of expanding opportunity and expanding sacrifice at each opportune moment, then you'll be a blessing to yourself." So that's a good deal. And your reputation will grow invalidly, and so that's a good deal. And you'll do that in a way that will enable you to establish something permanent, a dynasty. In Abraham's case, he becomes the father of nations, which is quite the accomplishment. And you'll do it in a way that makes you a benefit to everyone else. So that's a pretty good deal. That's four great things stacked on each other, associated with the call to adventure. And that's what Jacob follows as well.

• 1:10:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  He goes off to have a, to have a, to have his life. He goes off, and he lives with his uncle, who's kind of a schemer, which is pretty much exactly what Jacob deserves. And he apprentices himself to his uncle for seven years to gain the hand of his, his eventual wife.

• 1:10:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y luego su tío sustituye a la otra hija en la noche de la bridalidad y Jacob tiene que trabajar por otro siete años para conseguir la mujer que ama. ¿Y qué significa eso? Bueno, significa que cuando se mueve de una existencia juvenil hinchada a la adultez probablemente debes aprender a ti mismo. Y tal vez sea solo el destino que te estableciste para encontrarte con el tipo de esquema que va a sacar el mismo truco a ti que te sacó. Y tal vez si eso te pasa, aprenderás. Y tal vez no. Pero Jacob aprende y luego decide volver a su tierra natal y reestablecer la paz con su hermano.

• 1:11:10Jordan B. Peterson?

  Y en las bahamas del río, antes de hacer el cruce en su tierra de su hermano, lucha con un ángel, lucha con Dios. Está tomando otra decisión moral. Va a confrontar la catástrofe de su pasado. ¿Debería hacer eso? ¿Debería no hacer eso? ¿Debería retroceder? ¿Es peligroso? ¿Qué debería hacer? Eso es el lucha. Bueno, ¿qué significa luchar con Dios de esa manera? Es como, bueno, eso es lo que haces cuando tienes una decisión moral difícil de tomar. Es como, ¿es este camino? ¿O es este camino? Por eso te encuentras al cruzar el camino del diablo. Es como, ¿arriba o no? Y aún más... ¿Qué es aún más difícil? ¿Cuál es el camino hacia arriba?

• 1:11:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  Es difícil cuando la decisión moral es compleja. Y así esperas que tu visión sea clara. Una de las razones por las que quieres practicar tu objetivo hacia arriba es porque habrá un momento en tu vida, muchas veces, donde si corrompiste tu visión, harás la decisión equivocada y eso te traerá al infierno y a todos los que te rodean. Y a menudo en el momento worst posible. Y así, una de las razones por las que estás disfrutando, digamos, practicar virtud con cada mirada y cada pronunciación es para que cuando llegue el momento, que llegará,

• 1:12:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  seas capaz de confiar en ti mismo como confiar en alguien confiable, sabiendo que son confiables, para tomar una decisión imposible en medio del caos total. Y si no tienes esa habilidad, bueno, es el Mar Rojo para ti. Y eso no es... eso no es algo que esperarías si tuvieras sentido. Bien, entonces ahora Jacob aspira hacia arriba. Ahora la pregunta es, ¿qué hacemos de la noción de objetivo hacia arriba? Y así...

• 1:13:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  aquí hay una forma de pensar sobre lo que significa la escalera de Jacob. Esto es algo muy cool para entender. Así que imagina que mientras haces las transformaciones secuenciales en tu vida que te hacen ser una persona mejor, ¿qué te llama como una oportunidad hacia arriba cambia? ¿Verdad? Así que lo que podrías considerar como arriba cuando eres un adolescente te moverá hacia adelante si lo persigue, pero si haces ese movimiento, algo nuevo se manifestará en ti como arriba. Y luego si te das cuenta de eso y haces los sacrificios y haces los cambios necesarios, tu visión cambiará y tu circunstancia cambiará y algo nuevo se manifestará como el siguiente objetivo hacia arriba.

• 1:13:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Bien, ahora puedes ver eso como parte de esa escalera. Y entonces la pregunta es, bueno, ¿qué está en la parte superior de eso? ¿O qué está detrás de eso? Porque aquí hay una forma de pensar en esto. Puedes imaginar que el llamado hacia arriba se manifesta en ti de diferentes formas en diferentes etapas de tu vida, pero sigue siendo la misma cosa que te llama hacia arriba. Ese llamado hacia arriba también se manifesta de diferentes formas para diferentes personas. Como arriba para ti y arriba para ti ahora puede verse incluso opuesto a veces. Como, tal vez tendrías que controlar tu tempero

• 1:14:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  y tal vez tendrías que tener un tempero ahora y luego, ¿verdad? Porque eres demasiado de un empujón. Y así podrías... Un observador externo podría pensar, bueno, el arriba para ambos de ti es opuesto y, por lo tanto, no puede ser un reflejo de la misma cosa, ¿verdad? Eso parece paradójico, pero eso tiene más que ver con las particularidades de tu circunstancia que cualquier cosa paradójica sin arriba. ¿Cómo se define Dios en la historia de Jacob y Isa? Dios se define como el Espíritu que se esconde detrás de todo objetivo hacia arriba. Y eso es algo tan cool para entender. Es como, esto es una definición, ¿ves? Es una definición. Y es útil para modernismo. No es la única definición de Dios por ningún tipo de extensión

• 1:15:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  en las historias bíblicas. Hay muchas definiciones. En principio todos unen porque es un documento monotheísta. Y así Dios se manifesta en muchas formas. En la historia de Noé, por ejemplo, Dios se define como el Espíritu que llama a los sabios a prepararse cuando la dificultad está encajada. ¿Verdad? Y podrías decir, bueno, ¿crees en Dios? Es como, bueno, si eres una persona sabia y tienes una intuición de que la dificultad está encajada y estás inclinado, como consecuencia de esa intuición, a prepararse, entonces crees. La preparación es la creencia. Y si no, entonces simplemente crees en... ¿Qué? La insignificancia de tu propia intuición moral. Esa es una forma de creencia también.

• 1:16:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  O tal vez creer en el camino de la irresponsabilidad. Ese no es mi problema. Es como, bueno, esa es una forma de creencia también. Jacob construye a Dios en esta visión. Y como dije, esta es una visión que parte de un patrón muy antiguo como el Espíritu que se esconde en el apex, el apex invisible, el apex trascendente de todos los objetivos hacia arriba. Y así es algo muy cool para entender. Porque significa que puedes establecer una relación con eso muy rápidamente y muy realisticamente. Y la forma de hacer eso es que piensas, okay, mi vida no es todo lo que podría ser. No estoy en el paraíso, digamos. Y algo de eso está en mí, ¿okay?

• 1:16:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  Me gustaría entender cuáles son partes de eso en mí y me gustaría rectificar eso. Ahora, eso es una decisión, ¿verdad? Y como ya dije, esa es una decisión que se basa en la fe en tu habilidad de transformar, pero más profundamente en la idea de que hay un arriba en comparación con tu camino. Y así...

• 1:17:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  En toda probabilidad, si preguntas esa pregunta en el espíritu correcto, y ese es el espíritu de todo, humildad en la ausencia de orgullo y el deseo por poder, algún paso hacia adelante se manifestará en ti. Y luego tu creencia en eso, tu manifestación de la fe es tomar ese paso. Y luego la consecuencia es, tal vez el siguiente paso se manifestará en ti al siguiente. Ahora, hay un patrón a eso también. Así que Cristo dice algo brillante, sorpresa, sorpresa. Y se llama el principio de Mateo. Los economistas saben de esto. Para aquellos que tienen todo lo demás se dará,

• 1:18:01Jordan B. Peterson?

  de aquellos que no tienen nada, todo se tomará. ¿Entonces qué significa eso? Significa que el progreso y el fracaso no son lineales. Significa que tienen un patrón como este. Progreso, fracaso, ¿verdad? Y ese caer del monte, ese es el descenso infinito al infierno. ¿Qué indica ese patrón? Una vez que empiezas a mejorar, el proceso acelera. Y una vez que empiezas a fallar, el proceso acelera. ¿Verdad? Y así, la parte de arriba, la parte de abajo es bastante clara, ¿verdad? Cada error que haces te lleva más cerca al borde. Todos lo saben. La parte de arriba es, realmente no importa dónde empiezas.

• 1:18:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  Puedes empezar como dañado como Jacob, digamos.

• 1:18:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  El primer paso que tomas hacia adelante aumenta la probabilidad no solo de que el siguiente paso se manifestará, sino de que será un paso mayor y podrás tomarlo. Y luego la cosa que te llama hacia arriba se recedrá mientras progresas hacia él y se manifesta de diferentes formas. Pero eso es un llamado hacia adelante. Y la escalera de Jacob es una visión de ese llamado hacia adelante hasta el máximo posible... ¿Qué dirías? Te llama a ser un avatar del Espíritu más alto posible. Ese objetivo hacia arriba es la voz de la imagen de Dios en la que eres creado intentando que se manifeste dentro de ti. Eso es lo que es. Y eso está ahí para ti.

• 1:19:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  Está ahí para ti. Y así...

• 1:19:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  ¿Y qué significa aspirar hacia arriba? Bueno, es una gran relajación para ti para empezar. Y todos los que te aman a ti alrededor van a estar bastante felices si eso es lo que decides hacer. Incluso si has fallado en el pasado. Anyo que te ame va a estar emocionado de que hayas tomado esa decisión. Y si te aferras religiosamente, entonces tu reputación crecerá. Y si lo haces correctamente, entonces tal vez podrías establecer algo permanente. Y si lo haces bien, tal vez lo haces de una manera que es beneficio para todos los demás. Y eso sería un buen negocio. Y no hay diferencia entre eso y luchar con Dios. Y no hay diferencia entre eso y establecer una covenia con el Señor. Y estas son cuestiones de definición.

• 1:20:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  No estoy tratando de llamar a ti a creer algún clavatón arcaico superstitio. Estas son descripciones del camino que abre. Es la naturaleza de los caminos que se abren ante nosotros. Son siempre los mismos. Y uno lleva hacia arriba y el otro lleva hacia abajo. Y todos lo sabemos. Y el camino hacia arriba tiene un patrón. Y el patrón es parte de lo explica en estos textos antiguos. Y por supuesto que lo es, porque ¿no esperarías que la sabiduría de los siglos especificara la naturaleza del verdadero camino hacia adelante? Es como, ¿qué crees que hicieron tus ancestros? Como, ¿nada? Construyeron todo, construyeron todo lo que tienes a tu alrededor.

• 1:21:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  Así que...

• 1:21:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  So this is a very optimistic story. You know, it requires you to be on your knees, which is the appropriate place for you to be, unless you're in the Kingdom of Heaven to begin with, so that you can develop the courage to face your own sins, right? Your own inadequacies and the mistakes that you've made, to determine, to attempt, to rectify them in the hope that you could rectify them and that you would improve and that you would establish harmony within your soul and within your marriage and within your family and within your community, within your state and within your nation. And all of that under God. And that's all part of that upward spiraling process

• 1:21:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  that's Jacob's ladder. And that's all part of what I was telling my kids when I asked them, "Which direction is up?" It's like, "Is there up or not? Is there down? Do you suffer stupidly?" Well, if the answer to that is yes, then the evidence that there's down is right at hand in the form of your own misery. And you can deny that if you want, but...

• 1:22:26Jordan B. Peterson?

  The cost of that denial is the multiplication of the misery and it's transmission to everyone around you. And so it's a fool's journey. And the alternative is to take the great risk of up. And it's not a risk because the biggest risk is to not do it by an immense margin. They're not even similar in principle. There's no risk in aiming up, unless you think it's risky to dispense with your idiocy. And maybe it is in the shortest possible term, depending on how much you are in love with it, which might be a lot. But why would you not do that? Right? Well, to shake your fist at God and spite the world. It's, well, that's the Luciferian attitude, man.

• 1:23:11Jordan B. Peterson?

  And you play that game, maybe you end up the biggest devil in hell, but that makes you the worst possible failure. And that's not a great pattern for your life. Not unless that's what you're aiming for, man. And if you are, you're gonna regret it when you get there. That's for sure. And so my kids, they knew which way up was. And we all know which way up is, you know? And there's a promise in the biblical corpus is that if you commit yourself to the upward aim, you participate in the process that transforms possibility into the Kingdom of God. That is a good deal. That is a good deal.

• 1:23:54Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so, and so that's right there in front of you, right? In the form of your own willingness to admit to your inadequacy and determine to improve. And it doesn't matter how manipulative and crooked you are to begin with. You can aim up. And then the spirit of the highest upward aim will glimmer to you and invite you forward. And you can take that responsibility. And that's a good deal because that's a meaningful adventure. And that's a good deal. And if you do that, well, then maybe you could set yourself straight. And that'd be great because God only knows who you could be if you were everything you could be.

• 1:24:38Jordan B. Peterson?

  And God only knows how much less the world is if you're not that. It's a lot less. Maybe fatally less. Right? And that's, why is that true? Well, are you made in the image of God? Are you sovereign citizens? Are you the creatures whose essential nature is of such value that even the state itself has to maintain a respectful distance from that so that it can maintain even itself? Well, that's what your country, that's the vision your whole country is predicated on. Was it true? Well, how do you know? Find out. How do you find?

• 1:25:22Jordan B. Peterson?

  You knock and the door opens, right? You ask and you receive. And you seek and you'll find. And you do that on your knees, hoping for the revelation of the appropriate upward aim.

• 1:25:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you very much.

• 1:26:07Jordan B. Peterson?

  And apparently, apparently that's even possible in Las Vegas.

• 1:26:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  All right, I'm gonna invite Michaela out here to ask some of the questions that you've kindly provided.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  You nailed it, Dad.

• 1:26:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you, my dear.

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  You need some water?

• 1:26:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yes.

• 1:26:48Speaker 03

  Okay. We have 22 minutes, so we should get through one and a half questions.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  Are you ready?

• 1:27:02Speaker 03

  "Coming from a soon-to-be dad, how do you raise a mindful child amid extreme woke-ism and toxic gender ideologies that surround all the major academic institutions?"

• 1:27:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  What was the first part? Coming from a...

• 1:27:20Speaker 03

  Soon-to-be dad.

• 1:27:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  Soon-to-be dad.

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  Congratulations.

• 1:27:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  Okay, well, I'll start that with some observations that would be useful for a soon-to-be dad. So your child comes into the world with an offer for you. And you need to know what this offer is because a child is a lot of responsibility. And that's a great thing if you're wise, but it can seem a burden and that's unwise. You need to see the opportunity in that instead of the burden. There's something you need to understand. This is a lovely thing to understand.

• 1:28:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  All of the relationships that we have in our life are corrupted.

• 1:28:18Jordan B. Peterson?

  Our marriages, our love affairs, our friendships.

• 1:28:23Jordan B. Peterson?

  They're corrupted by the fact that the people that we're interacting with have their burden of sins and their blindnesses.

• 1:28:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  You're going to contend with that in every relationship, the impurity of the preconditions for the relationship. The doubt even that your partner, your wife or your husband might have, that they can be loved, that they're deserving of love, that you're deserving of love. They'll put up barriers to that and so will you. None of that's true with a newborn child. That child wants one thing. This is a great thing to understand if you have the wisdom to see it and accept it. That child wants nothing more than to have the best possible relationship with you that you've ever had with anyone in your entire life. Right? And so unless you want to be alone and miserable,

• 1:29:17Jordan B. Peterson?

  that's the best offer anyone can make to you. And Christ points out in the Gospels that there's a particularly vicious form of hellfire that's reserved for people who pervert the souls of children. And that's a very wise observation. And your obligation and responsibility and privilege as a parent is to have that divine offering at hand and then to maintain it. And you can do that. And the benefits of that are so overwhelming that any of the trouble that goes along with children is nothing in comparison to that benefit.

• 1:30:03Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so when I was a junior professor at Harvard in the 90s, I had my little kids, Michaela and Julian, and I had a, I really liked my job. It was a great job. It was a great privilege to be there. I really liked my students. I liked my research. It was a good deal, you know? But it was still my experience that there was nothing better than spending time with my kids. They, they were the best possible company. Now, there were some preconditions for that. You had to take care of them and you couldn't let them run around like tiny screeching demons. But it's not that hard to do that.

• 1:30:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  And their company was ridiculously rewarding because they were so engaged in everything, which children are. And that's what they offer you is that re-engagement, that spontaneous re-engagement with life. You can see that through their eyes. And so if you're an adult and you're blinded and cynical like you will be, you can see the world through fresh eyes when you have children. And that's a fine deal, man, if you're wise enough to see that. And then they're also ridiculously fun, you know, because kids love to play. And play is the highest form of human endeavor. That's what you want to do with your wife. You want to play house with your wife.

• 1:31:29Jordan B. Peterson?

  Play dress-up with your wife. That's what you were practicing when you were smarter, when you were four. Right? And you could do that again. And so that's a good thing to know. The opposite of tyranny is play. That's a good thing to know. So I would say to this would-be father, it's like, understand what you're being given. You have the opportunity to have the best relationship you've ever had with anyone in your whole life. And that's such a good deal. And so, and if you do that, well, then you won't have to worry so much about the woke mob because you'll have established the kind of walled garden in your household that helps your children

• 1:32:13Jordan B. Peterson?

  learn to handle the serpents of the world. Right? And that's a good thing to know too, is that, you see, you don't want to protect them. You, you want to...

• 1:32:27Jordan B. Peterson?

  Encourage them in their faith and their skill such that they're able to

• 1:32:36Jordan B. Peterson?

  deal with what's difficult and challenging and even potentially corrupting and maintain themselves. And you do that, at least in part, by establishing that deep relationship with them so that there's trust there. And then, well, then the propagandists will bounce off them because they look for, just like cult leaders everywhere, they look for the confused and the lost. And they offer them the false, the false bread of the criminal, the enticement and the attention that the lost are craving.

• 1:33:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  And if you attend to your children gratefully and fully, your home will be a fortress and built on a rock. And then the woke mob will do nothing but educate them, right? In the ways not to behave in the world, right?

• 1:33:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  Look, there was woke nonsense to some degree in some of the schools that we sent you.

• 1:33:55Speaker 03

  Definitely.

• 1:33:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, so, so what do you think it was that made you resistant to that?

• 1:34:02Speaker 03

  When I was in grade two, uh, dad, this was like, maybe even earlier, I think it was grade two, though. Dad told both my brother and I, "Don't listen to stupid rules." That was the rule he left out of 12 Rules for Life, "Don't listen to stupid rules." And so I think I just learnt that from a young age and I was just skeptical about everything. Like, too many things, but everything. So anybody, any, anytime anybody said anything to me, I was like, "Is that true?"

• 1:34:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, well, we did, the rule that Michaela is alluding to had another component, which I don't know if you remember this explicitly, but I told both kids, this is probably when you were older. "If you think a rule is stupid, then you don't have to follow it." But there's problems with that, right? It's like, well, who are you to say that a world, a rule is stupid? How do you tell the stupid rules from the necessary rules? How do you know you're not just being a foolish troublemaker? These are hard questions. So a side rule with that was if you break a rule at school and there's a consequence, you have to accept the consequence, right? Even if it's a stupid rule, like you have to...

• 1:35:20Jordan B. Peterson?

  Part of the, and this is also one of the things that stops you from just casually breaking rules. It's like, if it's a stupid rule, you're not to follow it. But that doesn't mean you get away scot-free, you know? And, and that's a good thing to know, too, because, you know, maybe there's stupid rules at your work, like DEI rules, let's say, and you're afraid to break them. And because there'll be a consequence, it's like, well, if you can accept the consequence, then you can break the rule. And, you know, if the rule, if breaking the rule guards your soul, which is exactly what happens if you break a stupid rule, then that's a good trait. And so, so it was that.

• 1:36:04Jordan B. Peterson?

  Is there anything else you remember that was relevant to, to that? Because you went to university and it was a very woke university that you went to. And you, that didn't really have, that didn't take with you at all?

• 1:36:18Speaker 03

  Oh, no, that didn't take at all. I went to Concordia, it was an art school in Quebec, in, in Canada, and it was extremely woke. There was a parade at one point and I looked outside, like my dorm window, and everybody was naked. It was just a naked parade. And I was, there were people riding bikes naked. I was like, "Ugh."

• 1:36:39Speaker 03

  This was 2012, so it was a while ago. Why did that not take? I was just super disagreeable. Like, what I did was I read all the books I could that were pro-feminism and all the books I could that were anti-feminism. And then decided which one was more logical at that point.

• 1:36:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right, right, right. Well, so, you know, that's the other thing with regards to your kids is that you want to, you want to educate them as broadly as you can manage. It's a really good thing to start familiarizing them with books early so that they start carrying them around when they're like 18 months old. Get that proto-literacy going. And then you want to read to them at the edge of their ability to comprehend. And also things that are challenging and get them to think the ideas through, you know? And we had lots of opportunity for discussion around our dinner table and breakfast table. And that's a good thing to know, too. If, you know, lots of people don't have set mealtimes anymore.

• 1:37:39Jordan B. Peterson?

  And that's a big mistake because a lot of socialization, the socialization that might make children resistant to idiot propaganda, that emerges in the give and take around stable and regular mealtimes. And so, and that was a pleasure, too, in our household. So, all right, next question.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  Okay, this is, this is a sad one, but I think it's a good follow-up to the first question. "I'm childless in my 50s and I grieve daily for the abortions I had in my youth. How do I move forward? My deep regret consumes me."

• 1:38:30Jordan B. Peterson?

  That's a rough one, all right.

• 1:38:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, I guess the first thing I would say is that

• 1:38:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  your unnecessary misery isn't improving the world.

• 1:38:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so, you're not obliged to heap any more burning coals of fire on your head than are sufficient for you to learn. I would say, what would I say?

• 1:39:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  I would say that you should go, yeah. I have a website, selfauthoring.com. You should go there and you should do all three exercises. There's one that helps you write an autobiography. That's the past authoring. You should do that specifically. If you only did one of the three, that's the one you should do. And you should write down absolutely everything you remember about those events and what surrounds them so that you know exactly what you did.

• 1:39:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  And that will be unpleasant, but you're already stuck with unpleasant. Because you need to know the whole story. You're obviously guilty about this and perhaps guilty in part because you're alone. But

• 1:40:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  you won't be able to forgive yourself or even understand what you did until you investigate what you did thoroughly. Now, you did what you did when you were young. You've got decades since then hypothetically that have allowed you to derive some wisdom. So you should be able to go back into your past with the wisdom you have now and to lay out the story in detail and to grapple with the mistakes that your younger self made. With some,

• 1:40:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  what would you say? Some forgiving wisdom of maturity, right? I mean, when I think of things I did when I was 14, they're regrettable things, some of the things I think about. But then I remember, too, well, I was 14, you know? And there's a certain mercy in judgment that's appropriate when you look back at yourself. You need to detail out what situational factors influenced your decision, what ideological factors influenced your decision. You need to make a case against yourself and you need to make a case for yourself,

• 1:41:28Jordan B. Peterson?

  like a profound case. And then,

• 1:41:33Jordan B. Peterson?

  and you need to do that exhaustively. And that will help you get past it. There's very reliable clinical evidence suggesting that such exploration, it's exploration into the heart of darkness, right? What's the theme? Confront what terrifies you voluntarily. And that includes your past. And so, if it's plaguing you and won't let you go, it means that you ate something then that you have not digested.

• 1:42:14Jordan B. Peterson?

  And you have to reconsider it until you've scoured every corner. And you could do that in the belief that if you do it,

• 1:42:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  you might find your pathway to being free. That's the promise, right, of, of a full confession.

• 1:42:43Jordan B. Peterson?

  You will learn, too, what you need to do in the present and in the future to atone and...

• 1:42:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  I believe it's true that if you embark on that mission with faith, that you can reconcile yourself to the misdeeds of your life. And we hope that's true. Everyone hopes that's true for everyone, because everyone makes mistakes. You know, and if the cost of a mistake was eternal damnation for every mistake, it would be a pretty brutal world. And so, can you recover from even sins you regard as egregious? I suppose it depends on the depth of your confession. And that is the case. So try that. Try that.

• 1:43:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  It may take you a year. Write every day and write badly. You know, just get it down. Everything you remember. You can sort it out later. Just get it down and try giving yourself the benefit of the doubt. You know, one of the wonderful things about the West is that when you're accused of a crime, you're entitled to the presumption of innocence. And that's a good presumption to bring to bear on yourself when you're accusing yourself of, you know, unforgivable crimes. You want to make a case for yourself. And that doesn't mean to let yourself off the hook, because that doesn't help.

• 1:44:16Jordan B. Peterson?

  But this is a good advice for anybody who's got a burden on their conscience. It's like, there's a monster chasing you. As you turn around and face it, and you look at every bit of it, every bit of it. You detail it all out. And that courage makes you grow. And might transform that hideous beast that's pursuing you into an ally. Right? So, good luck to you.

• 1:44:59Speaker 03

  That past authoring has been very good for trauma too, for letting the trauma go, processing it properly.

• 1:45:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:08Speaker 03

  It's been, yeah, it's useful.

• 1:45:09Jordan B. Peterson?

  Yeah, well, anything that's, any old memory that still plagues you, is, it's not being understood. You haven't done enough exploration. That's why it keeps knocking. Like, that's true neurologically, is that that memory signifies a danger to you, a clear and present danger. Because you did something that hurt you, and you don't know why. And so it won't let you go. It's your conscience in some ways. It won't let you go until you understand what you did wrong. Well, why? So you don't do it again. Right? The purpose of your memory is to remember where you've been.

• 1:45:56Jordan B. Peterson?

  You remember where you fell off the path, so that you don't fall off the path in the future. That's the purpose of memory. And so if something's plaguing you, it's because there's a part of you, a deep part, that is telling you, you don't understand, you could make the same mistake again. And no one will let themselves go if they understand that they're still at risk. So any emotion, any memory you have that's older than about 18 months, if it's still hot, then you are avoiding something you cannot avoid. So that's a useful thing to know.

• 1:46:37Jordan B. Peterson?

  And it's horrible to delve into that, but it's worse not to. So if you do it voluntarily, it will, that's your best bet. By far, your best bet.

• 1:47:00Speaker 03

  Are you going to EDC Rave later after this show?

• 1:47:08Jordan B. Peterson?

  No, no. I'm, it's, it's, I actually like going to concerts like that, outdoor concerts. But that's become quite difficult, because people know me. And that's usually very good. Whether that would be very good at an electronic music festival is a different question. But, but it might be. So I can't go to radically public events like that. But I'm also going up to see my father tomorrow morning in Northern Alberta. So that's, that's the priority for the next 10 days.

• 1:47:57Jordan B. Peterson?

  Alberta says.

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, loud. How can someone who wants to believe in God, but is deeply cynical about religion, overcome their skepticism? By listening to this lecture, maybe? Maybe that's been answered. What do you think?

• 1:48:15Jordan B. Peterson?

  Well, here's one way of looking at it.

• 1:48:21Jordan B. Peterson?

  You know, I left the church when I was 13. Why? Well, I thought that, I think I probably thought that I knew more than the church. Probably. I mean, that, that, there was a bunch of honest reasons and some dishonest reasons. The dishonest reason was likely that I just didn't want to go. Like, I'd sat in school a lot. Church was a lot like school. I didn't want to go to school again on Sunday. And so I had these moral reasons why I didn't want to go. But mostly it was that I didn't want to go. And I knew there was something wrong about that, because my mother really wanted me to go with her. And I really should have gone with her.

• 1:49:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  What were the honest reasons? Honest? Well, I had taken confirmation classes and the priest preacher, I was a Protestant church. He didn't know how to reconcile the theory of evolution with the biblical accounts. And I guess I thought he should have been able to. It was kind of a presumptuous desire, because that's quite difficult. And because he couldn't do that, I thought that it was acceptable for me to be skeptical and, and leave. And then, you know, there's, oh, there is the other arguments about, well, religious hypocrites. It's like, all those Christians, they go to church one hour a week, and the rest of the time, they're just as bad as everyone else.

• 1:49:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  It's like, later I realized that at least they were trying to aim up an hour a week, which is like way more than never. Like way more. And so, I would say, like, if you're skeptical, well, the first question is like, well, who the hell are you? You know, and the next question is, well, maybe the church is corrupt. It's like, well, you know, compared to you. Okay. And then even if it is corrupt, more than you, which is very unlikely by the way, maybe you could go do something about it.

• 1:50:32Jordan B. Peterson?

  Right? So if you went to the church and you were a better person than the church, you could be the sort of shining example that would improve the church. And that'd be a great deal for the church. So you could think about that. And if that doesn't happen, it's, maybe you're not shining quite as bright as you thought you were. You know? And then you might also ask yourself, well, are you the sort of person that nothing is above? And if you're that sort of person,

• 1:51:06Jordan B. Peterson?

  God help you. Because the last person you ever want to meet or be is the person who has nothing above them. That's like the definition of the ultimate tyrant. Because if there's nothing above you, buddy, you think you're at the top. And that is a very, very dangerous thing to think. So, you know?

• 1:51:34Jordan B. Peterson?

  The other thing, I guess I would add to that. I've been going to church a lot more often since I recovered from being so ill.

• 1:51:46Jordan B. Peterson?

  I was pretty antsy in religious ceremonies before that. It's probably a hangover from these childhood experiences. But when I recovered, I was in a lot of pain for a long time, like a lot. And when I recovered, then I would have these times without pain. And that was such a bloody miracle. I remember being in a pharmacy, one of the first times this happened after about three years of unremitting pain. I was standing in this pharmacy, waiting for the pharmacist to fill a prescription. They were making a bunch of mistakes and that would have just annoyed me

• 1:52:25Jordan B. Peterson?

  three years previously. But I thought, I could just stand in this pharmacy

• 1:52:31Jordan B. Peterson?

  without pain for like a year and that'd be just fine. And then one of the things I found in the religious ceremonies after that was that just the fact that it was peaceful was

• 1:52:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  like such a relief, you know? And so I wasn't in a hurry, I wasn't impatient and a time just to take a break and just to

• 1:52:53Jordan B. Peterson?

  feel at home, I suppose, and aim up. It's like, that was, that was good. That's a good thing. And then I also understood, you know, that you can't pursue virtue by yourself. You have to do it communally and to do it communally, you have to make a sacrifice. And some of that sacrifice is time and that's the time you go to church. And some of that sacrifice is, well, maybe you don't agree with everything. It's like, well, no one agrees with everything, but we still have to live together. So, you know, you gotta make your gesture towards communal being. And you make your gesture towards communal being in a church. That's always been the case.

• 1:53:36Jordan B. Peterson?

  And so, well, those, that's some reasons to not let your cynicism triumph. And

• 1:53:45Jordan B. Peterson?

  you got a better idea? You know, that's the other thing is like, what? There's no upward aim?

• 1:53:51Jordan B. Peterson?

  That's, that's not a good theory. It's a very destructive idea, very, very destructive idea. And so, better to try to understand, to assume that if you have a beef with the traditions of the past, it's a pretty reasonable possibility that you just don't understand what the hell you're doing. Right? Or was everyone who lived before you wrong and you were right? Yeah. And I don't think so. You'd last about three seconds as a shepherd in the Middle East 2,000 years ago.

• 1:54:35Jordan B. Peterson?

  We are way over time.

• 1:54:44Jordan B. Peterson?

  We've got to play by the rules when they're not stupid.

• 1:54:49Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you very much, everybody, for coming tonight. It was a pleasure talking to you all. Thank you, Mick.

• 1:55:05Jordan B. Peterson?

  Thank you, everyone. It was a pleasure, it was a pleasure being here.

• 1:55:12Jordan B. Peterson?

  Good night.

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