How Bad Intelligence Helped Sell the Iraq War | Luis Rueda (throwback episode)

original air date - 01/19/24 Former CIA officer Luis Rueda reflects on a career that took him from fleeing Castro’s Cuba to covert operations in Central America, Grenada, the drug war, Iraq, and eventually serving as Chief of Station in New Delhi. He also breaks down the failures behind the Iraq War, the reality of intelligence work, and what decades in the CIA taught him about power, policy, and counterintelligence. Support the show here: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheTeamHouse 00:00 - Start 01:07 - Growing Up in Cuba and Fleeing After the Bay of Pigs 03:50 - Being Recruited by the CIA 07:07 - Training at the CIA’s Farm 13:28 - The CIA and the Invasion of Grenada 24:39 - CIA Operations in Central America 39:44 - The CIA’s War on Drug Cartels 50:17 - Cuban Intelligence Tries to Recruit Him 55:14 - Eastern European Intelligence Operations After the Cold War 1:01:23 - Running CIA Operations Against Iraq 1:09:00 - Rumsfeld, General Franks and the Iraq War Plan 1:18:09 - The Intelligence Behind Iraq’s WMD Claims 1:28:51 - Chief of Station in New Delhi 1:37:07 - India, China and the Fight for the Indian Ocean 1:52:12 - Counterintelligence and Becoming Permanently Paranoid Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns. It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Satan swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 0:58Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 254 of The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park and our guest on tonight's show is former CIA Officer Louis Rudolph. You guys missed the pre-conversation that we just had about the Roman Empire in ancient Greece. Maybe we'll get back into that one. But Louis served as the head of operations in Iraq, chief of station in New Delhi, lots of assignments in Central and South America, was there for the invasion of Grenada. I mean, very extensive career at Central Intelligence. And Louis, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

• 1:34Speaker 04

  My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• 1:36Jack Murphy?

  So I'm going to hit you up right off the bat. Tell us about, you know, where you grew up, how you grew up, and how that took you towards the CIA.

• 1:46Speaker 04

  Ah, that's, that's, that's a story. Uh, I was, I was born in Cuba. We had to flee immediately after the Bay of Pigs. And we ended up in Miami for a while. And there's a whole lot of detail in there.

• 2:02Jack Murphy?

  Uh, yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt, but when you say I had to, or your family had to flee right after the Bay of Pigs, it sounds as if maybe you had family members who were involved.

• 2:11Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, my, my, I had a, my, my father and an uncle were involved in what passed for the anti-Castro underground on island in Cuba.

• 2:23Speaker 04

  And the, the whole Bay of Pigs invasion had been compromised from the get-go. My father and uncle were going home after work one day and some woman from the town they lived in right outside of Havana came running up and said, don't go back into town. They're arresting all the men. They know what's coming.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  So they spent the night at the cemetery and then got refuge in the Brazilian embassy. After a few months, they let them go. And they landed in Mexico. And interestingly enough, at, at the, the foot of the stairs as they came off the plane was a State Department Counselor Officer from the US Embassy. And said, would you guys like to go to the United States? And they said, yes. And there we were. So get up there, move to New York. I grew up in an extremely anti-communist household, as you can imagine,

• 3:18Speaker 04

  with a sense that not only were we engaged in a life or death struggle against communism, but we owed the US a lot for having taken a sin. I think every, every male member of the family volunteered for the military when they got, when they got asylum in the US. And so I grew up with that sense of I owe the country and we really are in a struggle that if, if we lose, we're screwed.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  So I thought of, you know, what I want to do. And the agency offered that, and it also offered the ability to pick up and move every two or three years. You know, I get bored easily and it's, it's, it's hard to stay at the same job or the same place for long. And the agency offered to, you know, a young guy, they offered adventure and excitement.

• 4:14Speaker 04

  So I joined.

• 4:16Jack Murphy?

  I, where did, when did the, the idea, I mean, I understand the motivation now when you describe it, like, when did this sort of come up on your radar? I take it when you were in college, did you interface with like an agency recruiter?

• 4:30Speaker 04

  Oh, that's very prescient of you. Yes, I had a Russian history professor who looked, it was a spin image of Teddy Roosevelt. And, uh, he, he sort of suggested and directed me toward, uh, you know, I might be, might be interested in this kind of work and this, this field. And I suspect he might've been spotting for the agency. I don't know. I can't say, but he steered me. And in my senior year, I applied, knowing that the process took a while. Usually it takes about a year just to get in.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  And I remember having received a letter from the agency and it scheduled an appointment for me at the federal office building at that time at the World Trade Center for an interview. And I went down there dutifully, you know, the interview was at two o'clock in the afternoon and I got there early and I couldn't find the office. It was, you know, I had a number and I kept looking, there was no number. I couldn't find it for life. I mean, I was now, at this point, I was late. And so in desperation, I walk into a nearby office, which is the wildlife licensing office, where they give you the fishing license and all this kind of stuff. And I asked the lady behind the counter, I said, look, I'm looking for room, whatever it was, 221. She goes, oh sweetheart, you want the CIA?

• 5:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. They're in the office between the, the, the broom closet and the bathroom. And, and I walked down there and there's this little door with a tiny little number and a peephole. And that was my, my introduction to the agency. I went in there for the interview and the process took about a year before I got the, uh, the okay.

• 6:15Jack Murphy?

  What, was that part of the test to see whether or not you could find the door?

• 6:20Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't, I don't think it was because the guy was kind of annoyed that I was, that I was late. He had other people to talk to. But it's, you know, it's one of the things we found about the agency.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  The quirkiness is sort of a nice way to put it. There's some, there's some oddities that seem to work at cross purposes to what they want to accomplish.

• 6:44Speaker 05

  We talked to Rick Prado, also another Cuban American about this. What, about sort of the, the staunch anti-communist, you know, the Cuban Americans. What was there, was that represented pretty well in the agency?

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's, you know, it's probably an exaggeration, but there is a sort of quasi-Cuban mafia in the agency, specifically working Latin America. I knew a lot of people and who were Cubans and had joined the agency. Again, you know, it's the egg, the Cuban exiles were staunchly anti-communist, uh, true believers. You know, my father used to tell me, look, you know, they got a, they got a name on our, our names on a list. And if, if the US loses this struggle, we're all going to get lined up against the wall and shit. And so there was that, that deep belief that this was a life or death struggle.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  And a lot of them joined because they wanted, they wanted to fight back.

• 7:46Jack Murphy?

  Tell us about, you know, when you show up at the farm and your training, like what year was this? And, you know, how, what was your thoughts about, you know, the farm and, and that experience? If you have any, any memories that stand out for you?

• 7:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, memories, geez. So, you know, George Washington was, was president when I went down to the farm.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  It was still a farm.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. It is, it's, it's an interesting place. Yeah.

• 8:17Speaker 04

  It's a really, it's a very well-run program, I have to say. And at one point in my career, I ran the program, uh, the Field Trade Craft Course.

• 8:28Speaker 04

  And as a student, I found the training logical and at times very challenging. It is meant to build up, to start slow, get you acclimatized, get you used to it. And as it builds and builds, the pressure starts to mount until you near the end of the training and you're thinking, you know, shit, I hope, I hope my job is not going to be like this for the rest of my life. Cause you're, you know, it's, it's like a lot of those, those kinds of training, you're functioning on, on four hours.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  It is, it is not designed to weed people out. Uh, it is designed to train you.

• 9:11Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Uh, it, it does have, it does weed people out. Uh, but again, that, they, they don't, they're not there to harass you and break you and do this, but they are there to test you. Uh, and all the instructors, it, it function under the understanding that sometime in the future, you will work for me or with me. And I have to understand that I want you there.

• 9:34Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  And, and, uh, an interesting story, which is, really has nothing to do with all this, this stuff, but it is on the farm. Uh, at the end of the farm, like, like most places, you, you put in your wish list and you put in the top three areas you want to go work for. Africa, Latin America, Europe, wherever. And they have a thing they call division night, uh, on a Sunday night. Every, uh, each weekend is a different area division. Latin America division will come down one night, Europe division will come down. And they, they bring a, a team of people and they give you a dog and pony show and, and explain to you why you want to come and work for my division.

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Uh, and, and that's one of the things that left me an impression. I remember two presentations. I remember the presentation from Africa division, uh, because they brought a team that had just returned from the field. Uh, most of them look like they had died in the field. Uh, they had suffered from dysentery, malaria, typhoid, whatever, and spent an inordinate amount of time talking about how wonderful the medevac facilities were. And how they blew you out. And they let you bring all this food because you couldn't get this food. And you couldn't walk barefoot because these weevils would go up your feet and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, never, no, thank you very much.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  And then what was SE, Soviet and East European Division Night came. And this gets into, you know, the, the anti-communist thinking. And the chief of that division went down into the arena, the auditorium, and, and gave his presentation. And it was one sentence. He said, "The CIA exists because the Soviet Union can wipe the United States off the face of the earth in 20 minutes. Any questions?" And that encapsulated in a nutshell why we're here. It was, at least for us, we believed it was in defense of the United States because we had a foe that can destroy us. Uh, and that left an incredible impression on me.

• 11:48Jack Murphy?

  And, and it's the CIA's job to prevent strategic surprise.

• 11:52Speaker 04

  Yes. Uh, and so, you know, that was it. I, that's where I wanted to go. Uh, I wound up in Latin America because we were fighting the wars in Central America and like most places, they had a draft on. They got, uh, they were allowed to take half the class. Uh, yeah, I mean, Tegucigalpa, Honduras was the largest station in the world at the time.

• 12:13Jack Murphy?

  Wow. This is like 1985, six?

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, let me see. Uh, I got a 83, so yeah. Yeah, we were, we were right, MacDab in the middle. Counterinsurgency in Guatemala and Salvador, insurgency in Nicaragua. Uh, and you know, plus we had all the other programs in Afghanistan and Angola and everything. So the agency was hopping. And, and what they had done at the time, in addition to the operations course, which runs a little over four months, uh, because the agency was managing so many covert action program, they felt, uh, that the, the case officers, the operations officers should understand paramilitary operations. So they ran us through a four-month paramilitary course.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Uh, it was good and was bad. It was bad because it came after four months of being down there. And then they turn you around and bring you down to another four months and you just really don't want to go there. Uh, but it was great, let me tell you. Uh, it was, it was splendiferous.

• 13:22Jack Murphy?

  Uh, you got a couple jumps in?

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Uh-huh.

• 13:26Jack Murphy?

  You got a couple jumps in?

• 13:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, oh, yeah. And, and that's just that, they had an armory in the back. They had weapons from WW2 on. Uh, I got to fire MP40s, Kar-98Ks and every other kind of weapon you can imagine. Light machine guns, heavy machine guns, mortars, rocket launchers. We did air operations, maritime op. It was, you know, if it was for the fact that you were gone for another four months, it was, it was a blast. Uh, but everybody got a lot of, a lot of paramilitary experience at the time.

• 14:04Jack Murphy?

  Well, I, I want to ask you about Central America, but before we get to that, I want to ask you about the 1983 invasion of Grenada in, in your role there.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, I had been overseas at that point for three months.

• 14:25Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  And I was home and I got a phone call one night about 10 o'clock from the secretary at the office, asking if I could come in. So I went in, fine, okay, showed up and the chief was there and he handed me a ticket and said, "You're flying out to Barbados tomorrow. We're invading Grenada." So, okay, my first invasion? Uh, do I need to bring anything? Well, you know, I don't know, but bring a suit just in case. Okay. I'll be a very well-dressed invader. Uh, and I got there, somebody met me at the airport, they took me in, it's like, "Okay, we're gonna fly you in that night." And it was, uh, I, I think it was emblematic of, of a lot of experiences I had with the agency, uh,

• 15:11Speaker 04

  that it is small, inelegant, but gets the job done. And so these guys said, "We're gonna take you to the airport, we're gonna fly you to Grenada." And we, we're driving down toward the airport and I noticed we missed the two exits to the airport. And I said, "Hey, we just, we just missed the exits." He goes, "No, no, no, no, we're not going there." And we pull up to the back of the airport by the, the chain link fence and there's a hole cut into the fence. He says, "Go through the hole. See that plane there with no lights on? That's ours. Get on that plane." And we get on the, I get on the plane and you take off, there's no, there's no lights, there's nothing, totally blacked out.

• 15:53Speaker 04

  And we're flying over Grenada and the guy, the, the, the crew chief hands me NVGs and says, "Take a look." And, you know, remember, this is my first time, I'd never been in the military or anything. And I put my, the NVGs on, I look down and tracers are going back and forth and bombs are going and the US is just blowing the shit out of the place. And I'm thinking, yeah, I, that's gonna be wasted on this thing. Uh, and I spent the next two weeks, uh, debriefing, uh, you know, exploitation, finding documents and, and things in whatever, where they were located and, uh, living kind of, kind of rough in a, in a house with 60 guys.

• 16:37Speaker 04

  Uh, but it was, it was interesting.

• 16:41Jack Murphy?

  Did they, did they tell you what your mission was? What, what they wanted, what information they wanted you to find? Or was it just go see what you can get?

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, it, a lot of the stuff is, uh, it's on the fly. Uh, you know, this is, this is clearly it's a military operation. The military has its, its mission and whatever. And, and we're sort of there to, to support that and support US policy. And US policy was find what, whatever you can get your hands on. From the agency's point of view, there was a Cuban presence. Uh, so our goal was to find out anything we could about the Cubans. Who were they? What did they have? What their intentions were, what their capabilities had been. Uh, we were trying to find out the details of what had happened.

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Because, you know, remember, they've had, they had a socialist slash communist revolution. And then they had had a counter-revolution where they killed Maurice Bishop, who was the prime minister, and were taking over. And we did not know whether that was a genuine, uh, internal movement, whether that had been directed by the Cubans or the Soviets. We need to find out what the intents. They were building this, uh, airport, uh, in, in Grenada that would have handled the largest Soviet transport aircraft. We wanted to know, was that indeed the intent? Were they gonna use that as a launch point? So we were looking, we were looking for stuff and whatever we get our hands on.

• 18:12Jack Murphy?

  Uh, did you find any, uh, evidence of, you know, Soviet or malign, you know, communist influence in Grenada as you were doing your job out there?

• 18:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, it's, it's one of the things I have learned through my almost 30-year career. Uh-

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, uh, malign is in the eye of the beholder.

• 18:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, there was communist influence. Yes, the, the Cubans were there. Uh, the Grenadians wanted them to be there to help them because nobody else was going to help them. So they, they thought, you know, they could help with this, that. Uh, we didn't find any hard evidence that the, the, the Russians or the Cubans were going to use Grenada as a jump off point to some larger nefarious plot. They were sort of like, you know, reacting like the US. Hey, here's an opportunity. Let's take advantage of it. See what comes out of this. Uh, but there was no overarching plan. Uh, the Cuban presence, you know, everybody was saying, oh, there's a, you know, Cuban combat troops. Yeah, no, there really wasn't. Uh, there's about 35 Cuban military advisors because they were

• 19:20Speaker 04

  trying to build a Grenadian military. Uh, and the rest were Cuban construction units. Now, you know, like all Cubans, they were trained as a paramilitary force, a reserve force. They all knew how to use an AK-47. That was about it. Uh, I talked to these guys and, you know, man, they were, they were pure construction workers. Uh, and wanted nothing more than to get the hell out of there because they, they went in there, you know, I'm a bulldozer operator. I pour concrete. I do this. Uh, you, have you been trained in the military? Well, you know, I get two weeks a year how to fire an AK. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, it wasn't the threat that it was brought out to be, but it was a potential, uh, long-term threat. And that's one of the things

• 20:05Speaker 04

  that we looked at. It's, you know, today it's not a problem, but next week, you never know.

• 20:10Speaker 05

  So how, how long had you been on the job at this point?

• 20:14Speaker 04

  I think six months.

• 20:15Speaker 05

  Six months?

• 20:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  How was it for you? Cause I don't know when, if you would interact much with the military prior to this, but how was it for you to be kind of thrown in this environment and now interfacing with the military, wanting to, you know, to, to debrief their, you know, uh, their POW and stuff like that?

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, I did my first time really dealing with the military. Uh, I, I've done that extensively throughout my career. Uh, and I gotta tell you, it's, it's, it's, it's great. Uh, I've, I've never had any problems dealing with the military. Uh, it is, uh, the military speaks a very different language than we do. Uh, and they look at things slightly different. Uh, I mean, you know, their, their goal is to, is to destroy things. Uh, our goal is to sort of just not be seen and go and move around. Uh, but our objectives are pretty much the same. Uh, and, and they sort of

• 21:18Speaker 04

  go hand in hand. Uh, I, I enjoyed it. I, I, I found the US military to be, uh, professional, direct. Yeah. We all have, have our assholes, uh, no doubt about it. It's, you know, we're human beings, but, uh, overall it was, it was great. They were very supportive of us. Uh, we did what they needed us to do for them. It was good.

• 21:41Jack Murphy?

  And, uh, while we're at it, please also consider supporting the show. Uh, there's a link to our Patreon down in the description. Uh, if you subscribe to us, you get all of these episodes ad free and we really appreciate all of our supporters out there. So-

• 21:54Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships and our sexual health. Every week it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower

• 22:35Speaker 06

  yourself and it, it isn't something, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 23:02Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 23:43Speaker 07

  What's a homicide detective doing here? Three bodies on the ground.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. Sin swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 24:02Jack Murphy?

  Louis, I, I apologize for the, for the interruption. Um, I think I'd like to jump off if it's okay on sort of a larger conversation about your time in Central and South America. Um, if we were to move a little further forward or let's say from 83 into the, into the mid to late eighties, um, you know, I, I, it's controversial. The Contras were not a, a perfect partner force for the United States, but at the same time, Daniel Ortega was going to Moscow and receiving Soviet military aid, which got the United States involved in the, in the conflict in Nicaragua. Um, could you tell us a little bit about your perspective and what you experienced while you were down there?

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Well, I'm, I'm still processing the breakfast for life free.

• 24:49Jack Murphy?

  Well, hook you up.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  Sure. Uh, you know, it's, I, I do think about Central America, uh,

• 25:03Speaker 04

  somewhat often nowadays. Uh,

• 25:08Speaker 04

  and it's, it's, it's one of those very difficult subjects. Uh, yes, uh, the Sandinistas, uh, and the Salvador Fmln were communist. Uh, they were hell bent on installing communist regimes. Uh, yet at the same time, we were supporting regimes that were brutal and

• 25:37Speaker 04

  killed their own people and slaughtered and tortured and in, in, and trying to put myself in the shoes of, of everyday Central Americans. And it's, and it's one of the things I think that case officers try to do is, uh, to understand all the different sides. And I necessarily agree with them, but you have to understand, uh, what their thought process is. You're facing a choice of, I have a government now that is, uh, pretty much oppressing and trying to kill me versus the government's going to come in and oppress me and trying to kill me. And a lot of these

• 26:17Speaker 04

  people, you know, were, were taking the, the, the, the choice of, well, I'd rather get the ones that are coming in to kill me because I know these guys have killed me and my family and this kind of stuff, and I want revenge. Uh, we were not, we were not helping ourselves to drum up support against the Fmln or the Sandinistas by supporting regimes that would be no better than what was going to come in. Uh, and we were not offering the people a real choice. It was you can, you can have hell or you can have hell. Take your choice.

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Uh, instead of, you know, eventually we got around to giving Salvador some degree of, of democracy where they eventually had a, a free and fair election. But I think it would have gone better for us if, if we did that from the get-go. Uh,

• 27:17Speaker 04

  there was, you know, I'll, I'll give you an, an example of one of the things that, that I, I did admire about the other side. Uh, and, and they, they worked their insurgency much more different than we did. We, we took the Contras and, you know, we created this and we, we equipped them. We, we managed them. We did all this stuff. The Cubans were faced with five different insurgent groups and the Cuban attitude and what they told them was, okay, here's two things.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  We will give you aid if you, as an insurgent group, can survive on your own for two years. And that way, what they were doing is this becomes a viable group. It's not something we're imposing. They can survive. They're viable. So we'll support them. And two, we will support you if you join the umbrella organization. If you don't, we'll make sure you don't get you starved of everything and we'll crush you. But if you come into the umbrella, you have survived, then we'll help you. And, and they created, they helped create viable, uh, sustainable organizations. We, we created groups that could not survive without us and,

• 28:33Speaker 04

  and, and who, who had a hard time developing the support among the population because they were, you know, they were viewed as, as alien, these guys, this, these American tools.

• 28:47Jack Murphy?

  They, they had bourgeois leadership that was hanging out in Miami, right?

• 28:51Speaker 04

  Exactly. And it's not like the Fmln leadership was any better. They're all, you know, sitting in Mexico or Havana and not living hard. But the fact that they have sustained themselves over time and they had to live among the people gave them a degree of cachet among the population, which made it easier for them and harder for us.

• 29:12Jack Murphy?

  What can you tell us about your own experiences down there? I mean, you mentioned you did a couple trips down to Guatemala?

• 29:18Speaker 04

  I, I was, I was assigned, I did Guatemala for about five years. Yeah. Uh,

• 29:26Speaker 04

  you know, it's, I like the country. Uh,

• 29:32Speaker 04

  I enjoyed my time there.

• 29:37Speaker 04

  I have to say, you know, there's a point where you start to realize

• 29:43Speaker 04

  you are supporting a horrendously brutal regime.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  You know, I, it was, I gotta tell you, it was,

• 29:56Speaker 04

  there was a part of Guatemala, this, and this was before I got there. And this is a story I had been told by Guatemalans. There was, there was insurgency, insurgency operating in the Paten, which is one of the regions in Guatemala. And the zone commander in the Paten had offered a bounty, fifty dollars, which is a lot of money then, in Guatemala, for each pair of ears belonging to guerrillas that you brought back.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  They brought back three thousand pairs of ears.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  The insurgent group was estimated at a hundred and fifty.

• 30:38Speaker 04

  And you have to ask yourself, what are we doing?

• 30:43Jack Murphy?

  Right, yeah, right.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  We are not going to win these people over and we're, you know, you can stand in, in, in, in the halls of Congress and spout Jefferson and democracy and shit, but you get down there and that's not what's going on. And the people know that, you know, they may, they may be uneducated peasants, but you can't fool them. They, they see exactly what's going on and, and, and you start looking and say, well, this is, this is a no win situation for us. We have, we have chosen the wrong side.

• 31:13Jack Murphy?

  I, I sense, and correct me if I'm wrong, Louis, that your, excuse me, your heritage is, you know, being a devout anti-communist, a little bit conflicting with your values as an American. And I, I think that, and, and I mean, I want you to hear your opinion, but I mean, I think that conflict there really is, you know, defines the nature of our presence in Central America at the time. This conflict between these two, these two values.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, I can be as, as ruthless as amoral as the next guy. And

• 31:55Speaker 04

  if I look at it coldly, leaving, leaving those issues aside, it strikes me as a no win situation.

• 32:02Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  And, and we are, we are digging a hole for ourselves that we don't need to dig and we shouldn't be in. If you bring the moral aspects in it, it's like, okay, you know,

• 32:16Speaker 04

  it's something that the US has struggled with

• 32:19Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 32:20Speaker 04

  for decades.

• 32:21Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 32:21Speaker 04

  Now, at, at the end of the day, I, I believe for all the faults we have, and we have many,

• 32:29Speaker 04

  the fact that the US exists is one of the reasons this, this world hasn't turned into a bigger pile of shit than it is now. And, you know, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story. There was two Egyptian journalists talking when the US invaded Iraq. And, and one turned to the other and said, oh my God, what are we gonna do? The Americans are just, they're out of control. They're bombing everywhere, they're invading everywhere, what do we do? And the other one turned and said, we do what we always do. We wait till the Americans fix themselves. And, and, and for me, that's always been the thing. Eventually, we will look and say, okay, this is not, this is not the way to go. And we try to do, we try to do better. Unlike a lot of other countries where they sit there and they look at the, look at the Russians in the Ukraine.

• 33:13Speaker 04

  They're just gonna dig themselves in and they're never just, just gonna walk away. We'll look and say, okay, this is not the right way to go. But that having been said, you know, we, we have chosen

• 33:26Speaker 04

  sides in battles where you clearly look and say, this is a mistake. This is, this is not what we are supposed to stand for. And this is not what's gonna give us the victory that we need to stop the other side. So, yeah, there's a, there's a conflict. And I think anybody who has, who has a shred of, of, of, well, has a moral compass will say, yeah, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll do what I gotta do, but this is not the right way to go.

• 33:58Jack Murphy?

  How, how did you feel when the elections were held in Nicaragua? I think it was nineteen eighty-nine, um, when the Sandinistas lost. Did you see that as a victory or did you, I mean, what, what was your view of that?

• 34:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, it was a short-term tactical victory. Uh, I, I tend, I tend to look at things because I, I, you know, I did study history and, and I tend to look at things long-term. And I, I don't think

• 34:27Speaker 04

  the history and the victory of Central America has been written yet. But I saw the elections where the Sandinistas were thrown out as, as a victory. But now we're faced with the same thing. The Sandinistas are in power, the Sandinistas are not gonna let go of power.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  And unless something gets done, you know, they're gonna stay in power for as long as they can. And you, you could, you could see the whole thing repeating itself. And eventually it'll be another revolution and someone will try to oust them. And, you know, depending on who's in, in the White House at the time, you know, do we get involved? Do we not get involved? Do we let it go? It's, it's just, it's like

• 35:05Jack Murphy?

  It's a history of personal fiefdoms. And, you know, I've had, I've had people tell me to this day, if you go down there and you buy off the right generals, you can do whatever you want.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, in Guatemala, there were, there were three hundred families that controlled the country.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  They, they owned all the businesses. You had to deal with them. They owned the land, they owned the farms. And with these people, they funded everything. And between them and, and the, the twenty or thirty generals who ran the military, that was it. That was the power structure. Nobody else had a say in what happened.

• 35:42Jack Murphy?

  You know, the CIA gets hate sometimes, along with like special forces working with indigenous and the sense of, like the Contras, you know, it's promoted as the CIA-run death squads. But, you know, I, would you say that America goes into these situations sort of with the same repeating sort of naivete? You know, that they see a strategic, a strategic purpose? And they imagine that the people that are against the communists, the bad guys, the terrorists, whomever it is, are by, by the very, the very nature going to be the good guys. And that's not always the case.

• 36:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, you know, that's a very good question.

• 36:24Speaker 04

  And, and I could do an entire, entire show on that, on that issue.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  You know, one of the problems, yeah, we are naive. And, and we are simplistic in our views. Like, as you pointed out, communist bad, anybody against them, good. No, not, no, there's, it's, it's, we like black and white. We like the movie High Noon and Gary Cooper walking down the street and they're the bad guy. Life isn't like that.

• 36:53Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 36:53Speaker 04

  And it is, it is messy, it is dark.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  There are, there are usually other choices. But we tend to pick the easiest choice. But these guys here, they're anti-communist, they're in charge, let's go with them. And it's easier because despite the fact that we're a democracy, it's a mess dealing with a democracy. Holy shit. I mean, you know, you, you got one policy going, then next, next year, there's an election. The policy changes and who's up, who's down, this kind of stuff. Here we got a dictator and that ain't gonna change. And it makes it easier for US policy. But again, that's not necessarily the right, the right way to do it. To your, to your comment about, you know, CIA-funded death squads and stuff,

• 37:42Speaker 04

  it, it's, it's one of my pet peeves, you know, it's, it's because that idea, you know, oh, the CIA overthrew this government, the CIA did that, is, is only partially correct.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  The more accurate statement is the US of A overthrew that government. The CIA doesn't run around sitting there, you know, we're sitting there on a Friday afternoon, having a few drinks and say, hey, let's overthrow the government.

• 38:07Jack Murphy?

  At the Vienna Inn?

• 38:08Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah, exactly. It, it comes down from the White House and they say, we don't like this. I mean, Chile's a great example. The White House came and said, we don't like these guys. And the agency said, yeah, you want to come after them. We think it's a bad idea. What comes after them is gonna be worse. And they said, we don't care. We want these guys. We want Allende and his crew. Okay, you know, at the end of the day, we salute and we go do the job. But it's, it's not a, a, you know, the CIA executes it, but it's not the CIA's policy. It is the White House policy, it is US government policy. And at the end of the day, which is, is something I always say, which probably does not make me popular, it's the American people's fault.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  We live in a democracy. You chose these guys. This is what they did.

• 38:59Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  You don't like it, get off your ass and get them out.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  You know, it's, it's, we as a people bear a degree of responsibility in a representative democracy.

• 39:11Jack Murphy?

  Right. And, and this was a topic that would rear its head many years later for you in Iraq. But we'll, we'll, we'll get to that. But after, after Guatemala, I mean, you had some other interesting assignments in like South America. I was wondering if you, if you could talk a little bit about that.

• 39:28Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, after, you know, after the, the, the Central American wars.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  Narcotics reared its ugly head. I mean, it's always been there, but it becomes the flavor of the month. And it's one of the things I've I've noticed that a lot of this stuff is driven by domestic politics.

• 39:50Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 39:51Speaker 04

  And so if if there's, you know, some domestic political gain to be had, or there's a problem in the States, it'll eventually start making its way overseas. And that's what what happened with narcotics. And then the US government, including the agency, the State Department, the Defense Department, DEA, engaged in decades long war against narcotics cartels. And I spent a lot of time doing that in in South America and Central America, because everything, once the the Central American wars were over, everything shifted toward counter narcotics. Like most

• 40:35Speaker 04

  government agencies, organizations, private sector stuff, everything moves where the money is. And there was money in counter narcotics. They were dumping billions and everybody got money. Everybody got directed to do this. And so huge programs were created. Everybody chased narcotics. For me, counter narcotics was the most frustrating job I've ever had.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  You know, it is, it's a proverbial whack a mole. For every, every narcotics organization you dismantle and guys put in jail, there's a hundred people waiting to take their their place. There's, there's nothing you can do in that regard. They're willing to die for that kind of money.

• 41:25Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Cartels, when I was there, and this was a long time, this was oh shit, 30 years ago. Cartels were making profits of $1 billion a year each. They couldn't process the money. They had rooms, and I'm talking rooms stacked, ceiling to floor, wall to wall with cash. They just couldn't launder the money fast enough. I went, I went to a DA conference and they had a narcotics financier who had turn states evidence, witness protection, the whole thing. And he gave a talk. And and it was the most scary thing I've ever heard. He said,

• 42:15Speaker 04

  for you to make a dent in our finances, you have to interdict 95% of the drugs coming into the US. That's when we start making, when we stop making a profit, 95%. We were interdicting 5%.

• 42:37Speaker 04

  And, and, you know, he said, what you guys seize, you seize two tons here, five tons, 20 tons, that's spoilage.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  That's just the cost of doing business. And, you know, I was in Bolivia and you can buy a kilo of pure cocaine hydrochloride, pure cocaine for $900 a kilo. It was selling in New York for $18,000 a kilo at the time. Just, I'm not good at math. Just do the markup. That's a profit. And that's pure. If you cut that thing two or three times, oh my God. So it's, it's another one of these things that frustrates me is when when the politicians talk about, well, we're going to go in and we're going to bomb Mexico. We're going to do this, we're going to send. It's like, guys, we have been doing this for decades.

• 43:30Speaker 04

  The war on drugs that was fought very quietly in Latin America was no, there was no gloves on. I mean, we, it was, you go and do it. And, and, you know, you, you watch the movie Sicario? It's like, yeah, I lived that. That's, that's what we were doing. And, and it had zero impact on the drug trade. Because you're not attacking the root causes. The consumption in the United States, the movement of weapons from the US into Mexico, and the laundering of money in US banks who are making a fortune off this money.

• 44:04Jack Murphy?

  And the poverty in the, in the countries where this starts.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, a cop in Mexico makes, I don't know, 250 bucks a month.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Traffickers show up and say, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll give you 5,000 a month.

• 44:21Speaker 04

  How can you compete with that?

• 44:22Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  I mean, I was, I was at a country team meeting where AID, the Agency for National Development, was talking about the alternative crop program and how they were going to, they were going to help the, the farmers who grew coca.

• 44:41Jack Murphy?

  Going to grow corn or whatever.

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, and change it into they're going to make them strawberries. And, and, and the reality of life was, you know, picking strawberries, growing strawberries, a backbreaking, labor intensive work. And at the end of it, they're getting about $5 a kilo or something. I mean, the, I'm not sure what the numbers are, but it's $5 a kilo. Cocaine, the coca leaf

• 45:08Speaker 04

  basically grows wild. You don't have to do much. You plant it and you sit back and let it grow. Doesn't require a lot of tending. It has two to three growing seasons a year. And you're going to get 500 for the kilo of the leaf. Again, we're, we're picking the wrong fight here. You're just not, you're not going to get them. I want you to work harder and make less money.

• 45:32Jack Murphy?

  Right, right, right.

• 45:34Speaker 05

  And it was funny to see that repeated in Afghanistan with the poppy fields. You know, oh, we'll have them plant something other than poppy. It's like, they're not going to plant something other than poppy.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. No.

• 45:44Speaker 05

  Why?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  They're not, they're not stupid. You can't, I mean, which American can you go to and say, hey, I want you to work harder and make less money?

• 45:50Speaker 05

  Right.

• 45:51Speaker 04

  Nobody's going to buy that deal.

• 45:53Speaker 05

  Right.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  Expect them to do it? No, it's, you know, you, you you got, you got with the problem a different way. Because all we're going to do is get stuck in another war.

• 46:01Jack Murphy?

  So you, you must have been down there during like the bad old days of the Pablo Escobar and all of that. I mean, any, any, any war stories from that time that you can share?

• 46:12Speaker 04

  Uh,

• 46:14Speaker 04

  I do have some and I can't share them. I would, I would get in serious trouble.

• 46:20Jack Murphy?

  If you leave out names and specific locations, it's okay.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  No, because, no, it's bad stuff.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  So, so that'll, that'll be some, that'll be some post-show spice just for us, Jack.

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll, I'll tell you offline.

• 46:35Speaker 04

  And I'm, and I'm, and I'm trying, there's a lot of stuff. I'll, I'll tell you, I'll tell you one story, which is, is, is not, but it shows you the scope of the problem. No names, no countries.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  But a representative of a trafficking cartel went to the office, sought an appointment and got an appointment with the Attorney General of the country and came into the office. And he had a suitcase. And he put the suitcase on the guy's desk, opened it up and said, here are $5 million. It is yours if you listen to our offer. You don't have to do anything. Just listen what I want to tell you.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  And the guy just looked and, you know, closed the suitcase and put it under his desk and said, go ahead. And they said, we will give you $18 million a month if you get the police to the other way at certain times, on certain dates. That Attorney General stayed in office for one year and then bought a mansion in a unnamed European country and moved there after that year.

• 47:52Speaker 05

  Good work if you can get it.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  I'd sell my principles probably for 18 million a month, like, uh, just kidding, China.

• 48:00Speaker 04

  Just kidding, China.

• 48:01Speaker 05

  200 million.

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:03Jack Murphy?

  Well, I, I mean, I know this is like a sensitive question, you know, with agency people getting pitched, but I mean, with the drug cartels and the kind of money that you explained, I mean, was there, was there any time where they tried to buy you off?

• 48:16Speaker 04

  No.

• 48:19Speaker 05

  Damn it.

• 48:19Speaker 04

  I, I'll tell you this, it's, it's one of the things that has amazed me throughout the years. I mean, we have, we have problems and we'll have problem children in the ages.

• 48:30Jack Murphy?

  Sure, sure.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  But I've I've never seen or heard of anybody in the agency being bought by by narcotics cartels. We've we've been bought by by the Russians, we've been bought by the Chinese. Uh, but nobody has succumbed to the cartels. Uh, and and that's a hell of a lot more money than Russians.

• 48:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 04

  And and for the life of me, I I don't know. Uh, I I used to, when I was in headquarters, I used to sit on, uh, can't remember the name, I think it's, uh, we used to call the the Personnel Evaluation Board. And that's the, uh, the board that meets as the final say on whether you get fired or not and referred to the Justice Department. Uh, and never did I see anybody come in for that kind of of of thing.

• 49:28Jack Murphy?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  And never have I heard of an operation being compromised because somebody got bought by the narcotics traffickers.

• 49:39Jack Murphy?

  Before we move on from Central South America, there was one more question I wanted to ask about, you know, your your Cuban heritage, but it sounds like they didn't actually have you work in Cuba. Um, and I was just interested in, did you ever touch Cuban operations or or, you know, go to the island or?

• 49:59Speaker 04

  Oh, no, I never went to the island. Uh, interestingly enough, uh, I I was pitched by the Cubans.

• 50:06Jack Murphy?

  Oh, really?

• 50:07Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, when I was in, I was in Guatemala, there are no Cubans in Guatemala. Uh, they take a dim view of communists. Uh, but my father, who has the same name or had the same name, uh, as I did, received a letter. He was living in New York, uh, Staten Island. And he received the letter from the Cubans. They were thinking he was me.

• 50:32Jack Murphy?

  Ah.

• 50:33Speaker 04

  And and it and it basically gave a pitch where, you know, they said, look, you know, after after Aldrich Ames, uh, the agency is looking at at foreign-born officers, looking at Cubans, your career is going to take a hit. Uh, you're going to have a problem, yada, yada, yada, next time you're out, you know, we'd like you to reach out and talk to us and this kind of stuff. Uh, I found out about this, my father called me on the phone and and was uh, virtually incoherent. The the the only words I could understand was a stream of obscenities.

• 51:07Jack Murphy?

  Because he's so pissed.

• 51:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, oh, God, was he pissed. I said, just just calm, calm down, this happens all the time. Uh, send me the letter and then I went back to to headquarters and said, look, this has happened, yada, yada. And they said, yeah, we've had about eight or 10 of these things happen since Ames was arrested and the Cubans are making, uh, an effort to use that to try to recruit our people. Uh, but other than that, I have, you know, in in in in some places, there are Cubans and and and you do get involved. In my first tour, I was involved in some Cuban operations. But I did, I didn't do a lot of that. Uh, uh, it just, it didn't interest me. Uh, and was probably a good thing because those those Cuban operations were disaster that that the agency ran.

• 51:53Jack Murphy?

  I I've been told the D DGI is like particularly sinister.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Uh, I don't know about sinister, but boy, they're good. Uh, they are really good. And and and they are, they are good because of, I think, two main reasons. Uh, they are great risk takers, uh, very creative, very imaginative, will take risks that we would not do. Uh, and they have, uh, for all intents and purposes, one target, the United States. Uh, and and it makes life easier when all you do is focus on the you, one, one country, one target, instead of 30, 40, 100, 150 different countries and you got to, they become experts, they understand, they know. Uh, they they are formidable organization, they're very good, uh, and they have,

• 52:43Speaker 04

  uh, they handed our lunch to us.

• 52:46Jack Murphy?

  Do you, uh, do you think that Cuba eventually learned the lesson, their lesson about, like pitching Cuban, uh, you know, uh, officers with a Cuban heritage? I mean, they got Anna Montez, who was not Cuban, she was, uh, Spanish, right? I think Spanish.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  She's Puerto Rican.

• 53:03Jack Murphy?

  Puerto Rican, okay.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean, the the problem the Cubans have faced is that the the the first and second tranche of Cuban exiles are are, uh, pretty fanatically anti-communist.

• 53:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, right.

• 53:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, the, again, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anybody. Uh, but you'll have, you know, eh, those memories, those feelings start to die out over time.

• 53:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  Uh, I mean, you you you saw it with with people like like Ames and Hanson.

• 53:39Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  You know, that that whole thing, when the, when when the wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed, they started to lose that inherent anti-Russian communist Soviet attitude. And it was like, well, yeah, shit, you know, we, money is money and you make money. Uh, I think, you know, you could see, you know, the next generation of Cubans losing. That mean they're all going to run off and and work for the Cubans. But that that intensity of feeling is not going to be there because the, they were born here, they grew up here. Uh, they don't, they don't have that sense of, we lost everything. Uh, you know, I had family members in jail, all this kind of stuff. Uh, you know, that that goes, uh, just the way it it's it's gone.

• 54:24Speaker 04

  Hell, I mean, you know, we've got politicians who are are siding with the Russians. Uh, when you start losing that sense, it's going to make it easier.

• 54:34Jack Murphy?

  Right. Right. Uh, and after this period of your career, you, uh, moved on to Eastern Europe?

• 54:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I went, I did, you know, I I got, I got tired of Latin America, so I I

• 54:50Speaker 04

  it's,

• 54:53Speaker 04

  you sort of, you sort of dealing with similar issues all the time. I got, I got tired of counter narcotics because that just, it wasn't, you know, you have successes, but in the big scheme of of things, the big strategic picture, you had no success. Uh, they were all tactical. You know, you were, you were, you were winning battles and losing the war. So I I I went to the farm, uh, and eventually was running the the the tradecraft course. Uh, that was sort of, I requested that that for, you know, it was, for me, it was a reward. Uh, you know, you lived on a really nice base. Uh, for for three years, I had, I didn't even know where my house keys were. Because you never bothered locking the door.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  Your your commute to work is five minutes? Uh, I I used to bitch when I had two cars in front of me, I thought, my God, Russia. Uh, it it's, you know, it was really nice. And then I got offered a job up in in Washington to do East European operations. Uh, that was interesting in that it came at a time the Soviet Union had died out and the East European countries were all pushing to join NATO. Uh, one of the tactics they were using to to gain entry into NATO was a very close intelligence cooperation with the US.

• 56:24Speaker 04

  Uh, and again, you know, can't discuss it, but they would do things for us that we desperately needed to do, that we couldn't do ourselves, uh, in the hopes, successful, that they could use that to to get into NATO.

• 56:36Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, a certain, a certain country that's very helpful today with, uh, Ukraine.

• 56:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, uh, and and there's a lot of countries that were helpful in a lot of different places. Uh, and I really, uh, I enjoyed working with the with the East Europeans, they were, they were good. Uh, they were very professional, some of those services, you know, clearly trained by the KGB. Uh, they were top-notch, top-tier and

• 57:06Speaker 04

  and I still remember the, uh, the the Russians were were bitching, I guess, to the to the Poles, uh, how they could side with the West and this kind of stuff. And the Foreign Minister just turned to them and said, we are the West. And, you know, you know, for me, that was the final nail in the coffin.

• 57:25Jack Murphy?

  Of the Cold War, yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 04

  We are not with you, we're over there. And that was interesting. And then I got, I was offered a job, uh,

• 57:36Speaker 04

  which was probably one of the best jobs I had in the agency and it was, it was scut work. Uh, I was, I was made executive assistant to the Deputy Director. And, uh, what that is, is it's a glorified gopher job. You're there at the Deputy Director's beck and call, you get him ready for meetings at at the White House. Uh, make sure he gets briefings, you handle liaison visits, trips and everything. Uh, and the beauty of it is, you saw everything.

• 58:13Jack Murphy?

  Uh huh.

• 58:14Speaker 04

  You saw the entire US intelligence community. Uh, you saw how US policy is made. Uh, you saw how the White House functions, how the different departments function. I mean, I was sitting at my desk one day and somebody drops a piece of paper on it, on the desk.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  And it's the entire US nuclear arsenal. All the weapons, all the warheads, where they are, what they're doing. You're looking like, oh my God. This is amazing. And you saw all this stuff because you had to, you know, you had to prepare the deputy director and all this kind of stuff. And you learn so much. Yeah, you learn bureaucratic stuff, but at that stage in my career. You know, there's a, there's a acceptable assumption that I know my trade as an operations officer. I know how to recruit. I know how to handle. I know how to produce intelligence. I know how to run covert action. I know this stuff. Now you're being taught a different skill set. And yes, the bureaucratic skill set, but when you start moving your way up the chain.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  They're looking for a different skill set. You, you know, if, if you as a senior officer have to go out and recruit sources, well, you know, the agency is, is destroyed. That's what other people do. Your job is to motivate those people, guide them to recruit. To represent the agency, to manage resources, people, money, all this kind of stuff. And, and that job was, it was a year long job. It was, you know, again, long hours, six in the morning till about eight or nine at night.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  But it was an incredible learning experience. I, I learned tons of stuff. Uh, the agency, the DO, I should say, not the rest of it, the DO.

• 1:00:00Speaker 04

  Doesn't really have a lot, and that's for those out there who don't know, director of operations, doesn't have a lot of. Leadership training. It's one of the things I've always admired about the military. You know, the military is, is got one third of the force doing the job, one third refitting. And the other third preparing. And that includes going off to war colleges, going off to this assignment, that assignment to prepare you for bigger pictures. We don't do that. Uh, we're just always going overseas, go overseas, go overseas. Now that's, that's great, but it doesn't create a core of senior leaders.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  Uh, who have experience doing that. This job gives you that kind of experience. It's sort of a training course. And from that, then I slid into chief of Iraq operations.

• 1:00:51Jack Murphy?

  Talk to us about, you know, kind of the run up to that. I mean, 2003, the invasion happens and sort of like, where are you? And what's that lead up to you going to Iraq?

• 1:01:01Speaker 04

  Well, I was, I was, I, I got to I O G Iraq operations group in 2001. And.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  It was obvious from, from the get go. That the incoming Bush administration was serious about Iraq.

• 1:01:22Speaker 04

  And under, under Clinton, they, they'd probably have an Iraq meeting once a month.

• 1:01:29Speaker 04

  Uh, under Bush, they were having two to three meetings a week.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  So, you know, clearly that was, you know, something was going to happen there. And I got to Iraq operations and the task became, you need to develop a covert action program. Uh, to support regime change in Iraq.

• 1:01:52Speaker 04

  That was a, an experience in of itself. I mean, I had plenty of experience in covert action at all different levels.

• 1:02:00Speaker 04

  But to be handed a program, to develop a program when there wasn't anything there to build a program on, right? Uh, with a serious task. I mean, you know. People have, have a sort of a semi false image of what the agency does from Hollywood's and books and stuff. And you flip a switch and you got all these guys all over the place and they're doing this and they're doing that and they're blowing this up. They're shooting. It doesn't work that way. And if, and if you, you want to have a successful program, there has to be something there that you build on. There has to be people, uh, there has to be opposition groups. You, you, if you have to build them from whole cloth. You're going to have problems.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  Uh, there have to be people there willing to do the job with you. Uh, I had, I had a senior officer tell me, he said, you know, the, the one piece of advice I have with you is if you have to work with these people. Work with patriots. Don't work with people who there for money, uh, or personal power. Work with people who want to do right for their country. Uh, and, and finding people like that was difficult.

• 1:03:08Speaker 05

  Right. Yeah, it, it's interesting because you mentioned how, you know, working with the Contras and the leadership was elsewhere. Uh, here, uh, you know, I, I don't know when it was decided, but, uh, it was Chalabi, right? A guy who lived in Virginia and, and said he had all these contacts.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Lived in London most of the time.

• 1:03:27Speaker 05

  London, London, okay. Um, but how, how does that? So somebody who had previously had on the show said that there were people. In the, in the administration, like long-term administration, you know, the bureaucrats. There were people who had been gunning for Iraq for a very long time. And, and Bush was the right. Person to receive that message. Uh, yeah, like, how were they? When they're asking you to, you know, uh, come up with plans for this regime change. I'm sure that there was pushback from your own analysts, from State Department, from people who knew, like, what was supposed to be the counterbalance to Iran if Saddam went?

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Yeah. Let me tell you, I was, for a very long time, I was, I was a redheaded stepchild.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  People, people hated me, didn't want to see me. Uh, and when they saw me come, it was painful. Uh, you, you had.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  You gotta remember, at the time we started the Iraq program, we had just had nine 11. Uh, and the agency, the DO was in full counterterrorism swing.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  The.

• 1:04:45Speaker 04

  The agency is not a big organization. And the director of operations is not a big organization. In terms, at that time, I don't know what it's like now.

• 1:04:58Speaker 04

  Case officers worldwide and in headquarters numbered less than the Ranger regiment would.

• 1:05:07Speaker 04

  And that's what we had to do, everything we had to do. From, you know, the latest coup in Bangi. To, you know, Chinese and North Korean missile tests and all this kind of stuff. And. CTC, the Counterterrorism Center. Put a strain on the system when they basically said, we're going to increase by three to fourfold what we have here. And the agency was like, we don't have them. They physically don't exist.

• 1:05:34Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:05:34Speaker 04

  And they were pulling officers, closing stations, and this huge stress hit the system. And then Iraq shows up and says, oh, by the way. We need to do more. And it was just like, oh, it's just physically impossible.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  So there was a lot of pushback.

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  From, from my own people in the building.

• 1:05:59Speaker 04

  There were elements.

• 1:06:03Speaker 04

  Within the analytical community that said, this is probably not a good idea. You know, the, the, the, the sense the analysts had was, and correctly so, you know, Saddam is, is a pain.

• 1:06:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:06:16Speaker 04

  He's not a direct threat to the US. He's not going to attack the US. Uh, he's, he's, he's a problem in the region, but he's a problem. He's not a threat.

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  The military, the regular military is pretty much. Rotted from the inside. Uh, he doesn't have the capability anymore to launch a major invasion of any other country. He could, he could harass, he can attack and do this kind of stuff.

• 1:06:43Speaker 04

  At, at most, he's a regional annoyance.

• 1:06:46Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:06:47Speaker 04

  And probably not worth a war.

• 1:06:51Speaker 04

  But at the same time, you had elements.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  As you pointed out, they were long-term elements.

• 1:06:59Speaker 04

  That a lot of them, I would say, were, were political guys who came in and out of government. Uh, the, the, that top tier who are political appointees.

• 1:07:12Speaker 04

  But who had done multiple tours of duty in the Pentagon, in the White House, but you know, you know, Cheney's a great example. He had done this. Rumsfeld was the same way. They had been in the White House. They had been in the Pentagon and back and forth. Uh, and you had these guys who were hell bent on, we, we, you know, we got to finish the job we started in the first Gulf War.

• 1:07:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:07:32Speaker 04

  And, and you had a group of neo cons, especially people on the outside of the Pentagon. Who were advisors to the Secretary of Defense and to the Vice President, who's, who kept saying. Uh, touting the, we are now in a unipolar world. We're the top dog and we have to, we had to show, we want to demonstrate that we can act unilaterally. In a light.

• 1:08:00Speaker 04

  Efficient, rapid manner. And, and bring about change that we want and we pick Iraq.

• 1:08:08Jack Murphy?

  It's, it's beaver dreams.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Jack Murphy?

  H W Bush did it in the Gulf War to show. He could build this global coalition. But I mean, after nine 11, I mean, for the reasons that you just laid out, I mean, it's completely unnecessary.

• 1:08:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, you know, and they weren't even, they weren't even concerned about building coalition. Their attitude was, we can do this by ourselves. I was, I was at a meeting. With, at, at CENTCOM. With General Franks and, and Rumsfeld had called on the phone. And I could only hear one part of the conversation, but they were going back and forth on, on the plan. And Franks had been able to strip the thing down to 250,000 troops. And I, you know, you, you could, you could hear from his tone that he was getting a lot of pushback. And he eventually hung up and said, we are at 140,000. That's what the secretary wants. That's what we secretary is gonna get.

• 1:09:06Speaker 04

  And, and you could see them, you know, we have a theory, we have an idea and we're gonna prove it and we're gonna test it out here.

• 1:09:12Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 04

  Uh, and, and it gets to some of the subsequent problems. I'll give you an example. We had, uh, the agency had, had gotten in touch with, uh, many, many, many of the major unit commanders in the Iraqi army. Uh, and we said, you know, this shit's gonna happen. Uh, you don't wanna be in the way. And they all say, okay, fine, we're gonna surrender, but A, we're not gonna surrender until we see US troops.

• 1:09:42Jack Murphy?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:43Speaker 04

  You know, you did that to us last time, uh, and we got hosed. So when the US troops show up, we're gonna surrender. Well, the, the, the unintended consequence was, as, as CENTCOM explained, we have a hundred and forty thousand troops. That leaves us one MP unit. And their sole job is to keep the traffic flowing from Kuwait to Baghdad. We can't take prisoners. And so the, the, the military launched a leaflet campaign before the invasion, telling people, go home. Put your civvies on and go home.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  Because we, they, there's no facilities. We can't take prison. We don't have enough guys to do prison. We got enough to punch our way up to Baghdad. That meant that four hundred and fifty thousand Iraqi guys, put on civilian uniforms and their AKs with them went home.

• 1:10:40Jack Murphy?

  It's ideological beliefs just completely overwhelming any sort of strategic rationality.

• 1:10:45Speaker 05

  And, and, and like just wishful thinking and not, not good planning. Like, you know, I'm, like I said, they're very smart analysts, both in the State Department and the agency and the military. And, you know, you have all these soldiers who, why don't you drop pamphlets and say, remain in place, we're gonna take over your pay. Uh, you know, like, don't, like, stay in your barracks, don't come out, but we'll take over your pay. But this whole thing we went through with debaffification, like, it, it, it's almost like nobody thought this through. Or they did, or, or they did think it through, like, smart people thought it through. And then, I don't know, Rem or who, whoever looked at it goes.

• 1:11:27Speaker 04

  You know, oh, God, he was, look, you're right. There's, there's a, and it's one of the, one of the things that, that is, at least in my profession, the most dangerous is wishful thinking.

• 1:11:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  Uh, if I do A, then B is gonna happen. The other guy's thinking, no, no, no, C is gonna happen. No, no, I, B is gonna happen. And there's a lot of wishful thinking. There was a lot of good advice that at the powers in charge decided not to accept. Uh, the debaffication, you know, they were told time and time again. Uh, the, the army, I mean, the agency went and said, the army is not a problem.

• 1:12:11Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:12:11Speaker 04

  The army right now exists, a regular army, not the Republican Guard. The army exists as a social welfare program. You got four hundred and fifty thousand guys, plus families, plus people who depend on them, who get a salary and they go do their stuff. You know, two, three million people depend on that. Don't disband them. Take them and put them on the borders as a border police force. Pay them a salary. Have them guard the borders, keep all the Iranians out and all this stuff. Uh, and, and I was at a meeting at, at the White House and Bush asked, how many, how many Baathies are there? I said, oh, about seventy thousand.

• 1:12:49Speaker 04

  And he said, well, how many we gotta take care of? I said, it's only about five thousand or so who really are hardcore believers. The rest of them, it's like the Communist Party. You wanna be a teacher, gotta be a party member. You wanna be a cop, you gotta be a party member. You wanna run the oil fields, party member. They don't give a shit. All they want is a job. So all you gotta do is deal with five thousand. Well, what do they do? Get rid of all seventy thousand.

• 1:13:13Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:13:14Speaker 04

  Now you got four hundred and fifty thousand unemployed soldiers, seventy thousand unemployed Baathies, which meant that the teachers were all fired, which meant that you had thousands of teenagers with nothing to do, and you know what happens then?

• 1:13:31Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:13:31Speaker 04

  And it all turned to shit very quickly.

• 1:13:34Speaker 05

  And all the public works, like, e- every functioning part of government, uh, was like suddenly out.

• 1:13:40Speaker 04

  It, yeah.

• 1:13:41Speaker 05

  Uh, do you, do you, I mean, I, you may not wanna throw shade or spill the tea, but were, were there specific people who were responsible for these decisions that went against all logic?

• 1:13:53Speaker 04

  Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, I, yeah. Uh, I, I,

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  for, for, for your listeners, I, you know, I, I would refer you to, there's a whole bunch of books out on Iraq that does name names, uh, and, and identify the people. Uh, but there was a coterie of senior people, uh, who were most definitely responsible for the mess that came after. They were handed a document that said, you shouldn't do this, this, this, and this, because it will lead to that. And they took that document, literally, and said, we're gonna do this, this, this, and this. And, and then they're stunned. I mean, I went, again, I was in the, I was in the sit room.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  No names mentioned. But the, but the, some senior officials in the Pentagon were briefing the president on the day after. What are we gonna do with Iraq?

• 1:14:56Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:14:56Speaker 04

  And the first slide that goes up is

• 1:15:01Speaker 04

  the US occupation of Nazi Germany in forty-five. And based on that, they start their presentation and it was so bad that the Secretary of Defense had to stop it and say, okay, we're not ready, Mr. President. We'll get back to you. And, and clearly they had no idea what they're doing. And you said, you, the analysts were saying, you can't use Nazi Germany as a template for Iraq.

• 1:15:28Speaker 05

  Right. Right.

• 1:15:29Speaker 04

  And, and there was no plan. Literally, there was no plan. It was, it was, it'll fix itself. And that gets to, to, to your mention of Chalabi. Uh, Chalabi, uh, was a very articulate, very poised, westernized Iraq. He wore four thousand dollar suits, tailor-made in Savile Row in London, spoke excellent English, uh, and, and had snowed all these senior officials. And his argument was, it's gonna be okay. Because I'm gonna be welcomed, my guys will be there, we'll fix everything for you.

• 1:16:13Speaker 04

  And it gets to that wishful thinking. It's gonna, it's gonna be fine. This is what's gonna happen. And, and they bought, it's gonna happen.

• 1:16:20Speaker 05

  Was there any intelligence supporting that? Or did he just woo like the right politicians and make them believe it?

• 1:16:27Speaker 04

  There was no intelligence supporting that. Uh, you know,

• 1:16:32Speaker 04

  we told them, and they, they, senior officials in the Pentagon hated us because we went in there and they hated the State Department because we said, Chalabi's a con man, Chalabi doesn't have anything. All the exiles have been exiles for thirty years. They have no following inside Iraq.

• 1:16:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 04

  They have no infrastructure, no capability, no organizations. They can't deliver on anything. Uh, and

• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  we're gonna, it's, it's gonna go into these hands and we're gonna have to deal with it. Not them. It's not gonna get fixed. Nobody listened. Chalabi, excuse me, Chalabi, uh, worked his magic on them.

• 1:17:13Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13Speaker 04

  And, and they bought it. They believed it. He's gonna fix it.

• 1:17:16Speaker 05

  And, and he got there and he's a total outsider with, like, nobody, yeah.

• 1:17:20Jack Murphy?

  So tell, tell us about your, your experience landing in, in Baghdad and, and running ops.

• 1:17:25Speaker 05

  Let, let's do this real quick. Um, because you have the Iraq Operations Group starting, you know, you, you start there in two thousand and one. How did we get to WMDs and yellow cake?

• 1:17:37Speaker 04

  Uh, it's a good question. I don't know. Uh, it's not a cop out. Uh, and back to our, our earlier discussion, I'm gonna paraphrase Julius Caesar. Uh, Iraq was divided into three parts. Uh, the Counterterrorism Center handled Iraq counterterrorism issues. Uh, Counterproliferation Division, CP Iraq, handled WMD. And then everything else, else in the covert action fell to Iraq Operations Group. Uh,

• 1:18:10Speaker 04

  I was on, I mean, I was in the periphery because I would sit in some of the briefings, uh, but

• 1:18:17Speaker 04

  the best I can, I can assess is there were no reliable human sources on Iraq WMD. Uh, most of what we had came from liaison services, you know, Germans, Brits, Italians, whoever. I, I mean, I don't know, I'm just rattling off names. I don't know if they provided anything. Uh, technical means. And as the analyst explained it, uh, pretty much a formula. At, at, in the first Gulf War, Iraq had so many chemical weapons. So many were decommissioned after. And this much is left.

• 1:19:02Speaker 04

  So this is what they have, uh, chemical weapons. Uh, then there was a whole host, and one of the, one of the problems you face in any kind of intelligence uh, operation is, especially when it starts to be big like this and people uh, smell money in the air, is you get a lot of fabricators. Uh, people who will make up shit and tell you stuff in return for money. They say, oh, we can get some money. Uh, the yellow cake thing came out of, if, if I understand it correctly, and I could be wrong, came out of, uh, Nigeria, I think it was, or Niger. Uh, I'm not sure which, that they were, the Iraqis were buying the stuff. Uh,

• 1:19:49Speaker 04

  but it was, it was not very well sourced. And it was weak. But we had elements of the administration who would latch on to anything.

• 1:20:00Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 1:20:00Speaker 04

  That would make their case. Uh, so, I, I'll give you an example. Uh, I was sitting in my office in, in CIA headquarters. And a message came in, uh, from one of our stations saying that this guy, this Iraqi had, had volunteered, walked into the embassy and said he had information from the head of Iraqi intelligence who wanted to cooperate with us.

• 1:20:31Speaker 04

  So I had him do a check. Uh, and by the time the information on this guy came back to me, uh, I had a senior agency officer, we won't name names, standing in front of me saying, the vice president wants you to send somebody to meet this guy because he has valuable information. And somehow he had gotten this information. I don't know how we got it, probably from the briefer. And I said, well, we ran checks on this guy. The CIA terminated him for being a fabricator. The British terminated him for being a fabricator. The Austrians terminated for him for being a fabricator. I think he's a fabricator.

• 1:21:16Speaker 04

  And I think the guy is here with a load of bullshit just to get some money. And they kept insisting, you gotta meet the guy. I'm not gonna waste somebody's time flying out there, talking to a guy who's lying to us and then putting the information out, knowing it's a lie.

• 1:21:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:21:34Speaker 04

  And I said, you know, you guys pay me for my expertise and my experience. And when three different intelligence services terminate somebody for being a fabricator, I don't want to have to do it a fourth time. I look like an idiot. And, and boy, did I get a load of shit.

• 1:21:51Jack Murphy?

  You were not their buddy after that.

• 1:21:53Speaker 04

  No. And, and you know, it, they tried to send somebody else out there. And, and we had a lot of this stuff where, uh, there was badly sourced information or suspect fabricators, uh, and they kept trying to force us. We, we had, we met a guy, uh, who claimed to be an Iraqi nuclear physicist. And we thought, nah, this guy's a fabricator. I said, no. Yeah. Why do you think he's a fabricator? Ah, because Chalabi's people have directed us toward him. So we had to, we had to send people out. So we had to send people out. This came out from the White House.

• 1:22:37Speaker 04

  So we sent people out to debrief the guy. And they were doing the debriefing and the guy was clearly nervous because he kept going to the bathroom all the time. Every 15 minutes he had to pee. Uh, fortunately, we had an analyst there who was a nuclear physicist. And the guy went to the bathroom. It's one of those old fashioned doors. We had the glass paint on top. And the analyst stood in the chair and looked inside the bathroom. And the guy was pulling his sleeve out and reading all the notes that he had written on his arm. And that's where he was getting his information from. And he came back and he said, guy's nice. He's not a physicist. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

• 1:23:19Speaker 04

  I ask him two or three questions. He doesn't understand. Uh, and, and the White House had, had the Defense Intelligence Agency parole the guy into the US uh, to provide additional debriefing and information. We said, this, this guy's in it.

• 1:23:39Jack Murphy?

  This, this stuff is like, I, I'll be honest, Louis, it's, it's like mildly traumatic to hear because, you know, I served in Iraq in the army. Dave served, thousands of American soldiers served a lot.

• 1:23:53Speaker 04

  My son served in Iraq in the army.

• 1:23:55Jack Murphy?

  A, a lot, a lot did not come home. Yeah. And, and to hear that, you know, our, our troops were sent under such dubious circumstances. It is difficult. It is difficult to process.

• 1:24:08Speaker 04

  It, it, it is incredibly difficult to process. It is, you know, I, again, I, it's one of the things I, I struggle with. Uh,

• 1:24:22Speaker 04

  you could, you can make, you can make a logical argument that the neocons made that, you know, we're trying to, to create uh, a better Iraq. And, and, you know, Saddam was, was a savage and his sons were savages and the world is better off without them. But the end result is, is we left a much more unstable Middle East.

• 1:24:47Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:48Speaker 04

  We created a lot more terrorism, more insurgency. We lost a lot of goodwill that we obtained after nine 11. Uh, and I, I have a friend who, you know, he worked with me on Iraq and he's gonna be pissed about this stuff, but, because he's a believer in, in, in getting rid of, of Saddam. Uh, but we sent a lot of American men and women into a situation they didn't have to be in. Uh, I, you know, I, my, my son was in Iraq and I, I spent a year, I couldn't even watch the news.

• 1:25:30Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  Uh, because I, and you know, and he's, he lost friends and I, I, I, I, I understand that in, at the end of the day, the soldiers fight for each other.

• 1:25:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:48Speaker 04

  And that's what they're there for, to make sure the guy next to him doesn't get killed, that they have their back. Uh, and it's, it's, it's that bond and that whole lag shit and whatever. It's nice. And the big picture is nice, but at the end of the day, you fight for your buddy. Uh, and that's the only, the only saving grace I have toward this whole Iraq thing. Uh, you know, people, people who, who didn't, who never served their country in that capacity had no qualms, uh, about sending men and women into this, this shitstorm, uh, for, you know, it's.

• 1:26:32Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships and our sexual health. Every week it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all, get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself.

• 1:27:13Speaker 06

  And it, it isn't something, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 1:28:21Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people. Let's find the place to buy them off. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Probably bogus is too strong a word, but it's, you know, it's a cause you, you look at, it's not necessary.

• 1:28:48Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. And Congress wasn't that, yeah, I'm sorry, Congress wasn't that divided on this either.

• 1:28:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:28:56Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Speaker 04

  Uh, you know, it's, it's, and, and it pisses me off because it didn't have to be as hard and painful as it was.

• 1:29:06Jack Murphy?

  Right, exactly. Right.

• 1:29:08Speaker 04

  They made it worse. They, and they kept making it worse. And it gives, I remember sitting in, uh, in the sit room, they were having a, a meeting. I always went with the director as a plus one. And the president was there and they were all going back and forth and and the only two guys in the room who kept raising objections were Colin Powell and Richard Armitage and they were the only two guys in that room had fought in combat and they kept saying, you know, you're this is this is not just doesn't make any sense.

• 1:29:46Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:29:47Speaker 04

  And and and everybody else who did not never did and their kids never went and none of them did shit. They they just they didn't they didn't heed the advice.

• 1:29:59Jack Murphy?

  Louis, what what was could you tell us about your personal experiences in Iraq when you were running ops over there in Baghdad?

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  No, I ran I did I did headquarters. I did the lead up to the war and the end of conventional operations. I prepared for my next overseas assignment, which was India.

• 1:30:18Speaker 04

  I watched I watched operations there from afar.

• 1:30:22Jack Murphy?

  Oh, I see. Okay. So let's jump into your time then as COS in New Delhi because I think India is just an absolutely fascinating country. Pivotal pivotal country perhaps in some of the conflicts that we're looking at in this century. Let's talk about that.

• 1:30:40Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. When I joined the agency, India is one of those places I wanted to go to. I wanted to go to places that were as different from the US as I can get. I wanted a different experience. And in India, let me tell you, it is, I don't know if you've ever been there, but it is a feast for the senses. Fascinating place.

• 1:31:12Speaker 04

  I enjoyed my time in India.

• 1:31:16Speaker 04

  Work there is challenging. The Indians are all over you. It there are still significant elements of the Indian government and security services that grew up in a very pro-Russian world. They they were part of the non-aligned movement, but may tell you, they're buddy buddy with the Russians and you know, the Russians are their main suppliers, their main trainers. And we are viewed as as the Indians have three main enemies. The first one is obviously Pakistan.

• 1:32:01Speaker 04

  The second one is the US and the third was China when I was there.

• 1:32:08Jack Murphy?

  What was your opinion of R A W and I B?

• 1:32:13Speaker 04

  Uh, not bad. There are, I mean, the I the I B is a good domestic security service.

• 1:32:25Speaker 04

  R A W has, I think, a good regional coverage. Their their officers are fairly well trained. They have good training program.

• 1:32:44Speaker 04

  The the Indian services are getting are getting better because they are being pushed to expand capabilities. When I was there, the Indians were still struggling with what they wanted to be. They were trying to develop strategies, what the future was going to be, what their role was going to be. Was it regional? Did it expand more? And one of the things obviously was their intelligence capability. And so they were trying to come to grips with

• 1:33:20Speaker 04

  that. I know one of the the challenges and I used to laugh with them because I was declared to them and I dealt with the with the Indian services. One of the challenges they were facing was keeping retaining and hiring employees. Because everybody says, oh, you know, India is a land of a billion people and they must have hundreds of thousands of surveillance and stuff. No, they were losing people to the IT industry.

• 1:33:53Jack Murphy?

  Makes sense. Like the dot com boom in America. I mean, we dealt with it, right?

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  I mean, you know, the guys were telling it used to be the Indian civil service was a highly prestigious organization. They they went to schools, to colleges, they graduated, have they call them batches, almost like military academies where they all graduate and stuff. And it was good paying jobs. You got a pension. They gave you housing, all this kind of stuff. And then the IT boom came in and, you know, IT companies and call centers are paying three, four, five, six times what an IB or a raw officer would get. And they're saying we're having a hard time. We're competing. And, you know, the agency was faced with the same thing with, you know, we're competing with with for university graduates

• 1:34:40Speaker 04

  who can make three, four, five times what they make at the agency. But they, you know, they were there were, we've seen it with all these these accusations of of the Indians assassinating Sikh separatists in different countries. They're they're starting to feel their oats and they're getting out there.

• 1:35:00Jack Murphy?

  It's a multipolar world.

• 1:35:03Speaker 04

  Huh?

• 1:35:03Jack Murphy?

  It's a multipolar world.

• 1:35:06Speaker 04

  Yes. India is now, I think they have settled on the the near abroad, as they call it, the Indian Ocean area, East Africa.

• 1:35:18Jack Murphy?

  Myanmar.

• 1:35:19Speaker 04

  Their their environment. But I think, you know, yeah, we look at them as instrumental in some of our strategies against China and in the Indian Ocean. India is never going to be the ally we need. And I don't say this maliciously or not, but for us to think, I mean, we look at it at an ally as somebody with shared common interest and agreed upon goals. We're never going to get that from India. They have different goals. They have different interests. They they have still a sense of a non-aligned movement. They don't want to get tied to the US.

• 1:36:01Jack Murphy?

  What do you think of like, I believe, Louis, Ambassador Blackwell penned a piece in Foreign Affairs about how we should basically just arm up the Indians and they're naturally going to do what we want them to do?

• 1:36:13Speaker 04

  No, never do what we want them to do. If anything, they'll get pissed off if we if we assume they're going to do what we want them to do. It's it's the Indians are not like that. They have and this is where we get into that wishful thinking. Yeah, well, we view China as a threat. India must view China as the same threat. You know, you you look at the region, Pakistan views India as a threat.

• 1:36:39Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:40Speaker 04

  India doesn't view Pakistan as a threat. They view them as an annoyance. They view China as a threat. China doesn't view India as a threat. They're they're a competitor, but there's no way that the Indians are going to be a threat to China. They're not going to invade China. They're not going to take over. They're not going to push China out of their spheres of influence. Whereas China could do that to India.

• 1:37:03Speaker 04

  India doesn't want to have a problem with Pakistan. They understand that, you know, if you're going to be a power, a regional power at least, you can't spend time with bullshit border problems.

• 1:37:15Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:37:16Speaker 04

  The Pakistanis, they can't afford India not to be a threat. The Pakistani military has so much power and authority and money because they have blown up the Indian threat to such a large extent.

• 1:37:32Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:37:32Speaker 04

  And if they turn around and say, hey, let's make peace with India, which India would probably buy, then someone's going to say, well, why do we need all this crap that we give you?

• 1:37:41Jack Murphy?

  So so India is basically the counter narcotics program of the 80s for Pakistan's military and intelligence?

• 1:37:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, you can say it that way. I, you know, I just, India is not going to give us what we want. They'll they'll give us piecemeal stuff. They'll give us things where they think they will win more. It's sort of a, you know, a trade off, but they're not they're not going to be for us like Japan is or Australia.

• 1:38:10Jack Murphy?

  Sure, sure. You bring up an interesting point because I always wondered why we didn't more, you know, court India more because it it seems as though they're a regional counterpoint to China, that that that we have a lot of alliances. But what is it that India, you know, wants for themselves that that wouldn't be in alignment with the US's strategic goals?

• 1:38:39Speaker 04

  Well, I think I think India.

• 1:38:43Speaker 04

  India wants to, I think, be the premier power in the Indian Ocean.

• 1:38:52Speaker 04

  The US is uncomfortable letting anybody be a premier power anywhere.

• 1:38:57Speaker 04

  They want to have the greatest extent of influence in East Africa.

• 1:39:04Speaker 04

  We're probably not comfortable with that. They want to be able to secure the lines of communication into the Middle East because of oil and the oil coming back and forth.

• 1:39:15Speaker 04

  We don't want that. You know, I'll give you, I'll give you a fine example. During the Iran-Iraq war, Iran was mining the Gulf and attacking shipping and stuff. And, and the US sent in the Navy to secure and escort the ships out and secure the Gulf. And we guaranteed the free passage.

• 1:39:41Speaker 04

  And this is where you get to, you can't do wishful thinking or mirror imaging because we saw ourselves as we are now guaranteeing freedom of the seas. China and India saw the opposite. Their attitude was if the US can keep the Straits of Hormuz open, they can close them. And in a time of conflict, that's exactly what they're gonna do. So we need to build naval capability to get in there and keep the Straits open ourselves, which is one of the reasons why the Chinese are starting to build a big navy that will eventually start to go into the Indian Ocean, which is why the Indians are gonna get started, you know. We gotta stop the Chinese. We need to build a big ocean because both these countries get a significant portion of oil from the Middle East.

• 1:40:24Speaker 04

  So in, in that regard, you know, we're all gonna be competing for space and primacy in that area.

• 1:40:31Jack Murphy?

  So, I mean, look, the, the United States Army has been conducting training exercises. The Indians, they did one this last year, or in 2023, they did one, you know, not on the Chinese border, but within like 100 kilometers. Like this relationship exists, and I just wanted to kind of probe you a little bit as far as like, what do you think is a realistic US-India security relationship?

• 1:40:59Speaker 04

  Uh, well, I, I think one of the first things is, and I don't know if that's gonna happen, but what the Indians would like to see in order to improve that relationship is for us to begin divesting our obsession with Pakistan. That has always been a sticking point with them. When I was there, the Indians were always pushing, you need to help us with Pakistan. Pakistan is sponsoring terrorist attacks against India. And the US was so heavily vested in Pakistan, giving us a corridor into Afghanistan that we weren't about to upset the apple cart.

• 1:41:40Jack Murphy?

  Could, could that change now with the, with our extraction from Afghanistan?

• 1:41:45Speaker 04

  It can. If, if the US policy starts to shift, and if the US has got to make a, a clear decision, we're choosing India over Pakistan, because Pakistan has pretty much chosen China over the US. Which is, yeah, freaking Indians out.

• 1:42:03Speaker 04

  And, and now China's working on port facilities and Pakistan and the Indians are really getting, getting tense about that. But we've got to make a very clear situation. The Indians are, are interested in getting from us military know-how.

• 1:42:20Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:42:21Speaker 04

  Everybody has seen how the US military functions. And they understand, you know, if you're gonna fight a war, that's the model to, to follow right now. So, yeah, they're gonna host US forces in India, the Navy, the Air Force, the Army. They're gonna wanna do joint things because they wanna learn from us. But, you know, the trust issue remains. Are these guys gonna ditch us as soon as Pakistan comes calling?

• 1:42:49Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:50Speaker 04

  We, you know, not, not, not to beat the US about the head and shoulders, but, but our reputation over the last 15, 20 years has suffered significantly.

• 1:43:03Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:43:04Speaker 04

  We are not the reliable partners that people used to think we were.

• 1:43:09Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:43:10Speaker 04

  You know, you got, you got the Europeans right now planning for the eventuality that if Trump gets elected and decides to yank us out of NATO, they're on their own. So how do they cushion themselves? And other countries are watching and saying, if the, if the Europeans can't rely on them, we surely can.

• 1:43:29Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:30Speaker 04

  So, so, you know, a, a good deal is gonna be, we've got to rebuild those, those alliances, those trusts, those capabilities. It's, I'm just, I know I'm preaching to the choir and I'm just babbling here. But people don't understand, yes, the US has untold bases overseas. You know, how the hell do you think we project power? You're not, you're not gonna land, you're not gonna go from Missouri to, to Pakistan overnight. You need bases, you need facilities. How do you think we get our wounded? Where do we get them to? Frankfurt?

• 1:44:05Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:44:05Speaker 04

  You, you pull all that crap out and we're, we're out. We're out of the Middle East, we're out of South Asia, we're out of all these places.

• 1:44:12Jack Murphy?

  Isolated island.

• 1:44:14Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, and, and everybody in all these countries are looking, and they're looking with, with, with two ideas in mind. Is the US dependable and trustworthy? And if the answer is no, how do we slip in and take over? And I don't mean, you know, conquer, but how do we fill in that vacuum? Because that's, there's gonna be a vacuum there and we need to fill it sooner rather than later.

• 1:44:38Jack Murphy?

  I, I know we've had some, uh, some challenges dealing with Pakistan in the past, and partly because we've had an ambassador or two that had been in love with Pakistan and just would not let anything happen in their yard. Do, do, do countries like India, do, do they have that benefit also where ambassadors will just go to bat for them?

• 1:45:01Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's, it's interesting to watch, and not just ambassadors. You know, there's a reason

• 1:45:11Speaker 04

  why we have two and three-year assignments. And that's to avoid clientitis. And the longer you stay in a country,

• 1:45:24Speaker 04

  the more you get clientitis. I, I have, I have seen ambassadors in India who are, are a big cheerleader for that country.

• 1:45:34Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, they're, they're appointees, they don't know anything about diplomacy.

• 1:45:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and, you know, and they forget. I mean, I worked for one ambassador who was, is independently wealthy. So you, you can't say, you know, you don't forget who pays your, your salary. He didn't even take a salary.

• 1:45:53Speaker 04

  And, and, you know, they see, they see it to some extent from the locals' eyes, from the Indian eyes, and they, instead of becoming a representative of the US toward that country, they become representative of that country toward the US.

• 1:46:08Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:46:09Speaker 04

  And, and a lot of these countries work really hard to establish that relationship. They do it to our chief of station.

• 1:46:16Speaker 04

  You know, there's nothing like, if you're the chief of station and the director of the CIA comes to visit, that the local service can get the director a meeting with the president or prime minister. They take him on this trip and they go here, and he sees all this kind of, and the glory goes back to you. Oh, he's got everything plugged in.

• 1:46:37Speaker 04

  You don't wanna upset the apple cart. They're making you look good.

• 1:46:41Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:46:42Speaker 04

  So, you know, you tend to be hands-offish. We don't wanna, we don't wanna press them on, on some issues. And I've seen it, where, where, you know, the US policy is, we gotta press them on this, and oh, you don't wanna upset them. So, yeah, it, it, it goes, it, it happens, and it happens not infrequently.

• 1:46:57Jack Murphy?

  So what was, uh, what was the next stop for you after chief of station of New Delhi?

• 1:47:03Speaker 04

  Oh, that was, uh, I, out of all bizarre things, I went to be the scholar in residence in Miami, University of Miami.

• 1:47:13Speaker 04

  My, my then-wife, her parents had moved to Florida.

• 1:47:19Speaker 04

  Her father had had his second heart bypass, and her mother was recovering from breast cancer, so we needed to

• 1:47:30Speaker 04

  be close. So there was an opening where, you know, I, I taught

• 1:47:36Speaker 04

  national security issues, and I did a couple of years there. And then went back up to Washington to do counterintelligence for CTC and retired out of there.

• 1:47:48Jack Murphy?

  And how is, uh, how have you enjoyed retirement? What's that like?

• 1:47:53Speaker 04

  Oh, God, I love it.

• 1:47:57Speaker 04

  I gotta, I gotta tell you, it's,

• 1:48:03Speaker 04

  being the director of operations, especially overseas, but in some headquarters assignment,

• 1:48:09Speaker 04

  from the military, it, it is a demanding job. 12-hour days are the norm.

• 1:48:19Speaker 04

  Working six, five and a half, six, seven days a week, not unknown. When I was doing Iraq, I, I would be in the office at 5:30 in the morning, go home at 10:00 at night, when I didn't sleep in the office.

• 1:48:39Speaker 04

  You know, it, it, even overseas, you're, you know, you, you, especially when you start out, you have a regular job and then you gotta do your agency job, which tends to be at night and weekends and stuff. So it, it takes its toll after a while.

• 1:48:54Speaker 04

  It is also, it, it's an isolating job psychologically. And then you retire and it's like, it's, it's, when I, when I went through the retirement program, they had a speaker who was a, a psychologist, and he specialized in retirement stuff and, and he said the number one thing that, that people

• 1:49:24Speaker 04

  extol about retirement is sleep and the fact that they can sleep.

• 1:49:33Speaker 04

  So it's, it's, it's nice. It's, it's different. You, you, you know, like you're in this, you're in the agency and you're, you're very isolated. You're in the building. You can't, you can't take phones in. You don't have access to screens, information. People outside, you can't really tell what you do. You can't discuss your day, even when you go home, especially overseas and you go home, you, you can't talk to your spouse and say, how, how was your day? You don't know if somebody's listening. Uh, so it tends to isolate you. When you retire and, I mean, I, a guy I worked for retired, he's teaching at, at one of the universities. He says, I don't, I can't see ever going back. I am, I am now so plugged in, so much information, talking to people and all this kind of stuff,

• 1:50:17Speaker 04

  which you, you don't do, even inside the agency. You know, we function on the need to know basis. So I'm not telling the guy next to me who sits next to me necessarily what I'm doing, uh, or how my, my cases are going because he doesn't have a need to know. She doesn't have a need to know. Uh, so it does tend to, to get you isolated and that changes when you retire.

• 1:50:41Jack Murphy?

  Where, uh, where are you at today? What are you doing now?

• 1:50:45Speaker 04

  Talking to you.

• 1:50:48Jack Murphy?

  And we appreciate it.

• 1:50:50Speaker 04

  No, I'm not doing anything. It's, it's, uh, you know, I, I live in DC.

• 1:50:57Speaker 04

  For a while after I retired, I did some contracting work, uh, about for five years or so after I retired.

• 1:51:08Speaker 04

  And, you know, that's okay. Uh, I, a lot of people turn around and go back working for the agency as a contractor. I, it's, I, I got to do, I'm fortunate. I got to do

• 1:51:22Speaker 04

  pretty much I wanted when I joined the agency.

• 1:51:26Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:27Speaker 04

  And so there's nothing left to do and other than it would be there collecting a paycheck, uh, which is not intellectually stimulating for me. Uh, I write a blog just to keep my, you know, my mind going. Uh, I read, I got a 12 year old daughter who's in school that, you know, sucks up a lot of my time, uh, wonderfully so. And, uh, not much.

• 1:51:52Jack Murphy?

  Where, where can people find your website?

• 1:51:55Speaker 04

  Uh, it's called the debrief, uh, a rundown of today's national security interests. I should have given you something, but I'm too goddamn lazy to do anything about it. Uh, again, it's, you know, it's, it, the, the website, the, the blog is, is

• 1:52:13Jack Murphy?

  We'll put it in the description.

• 1:52:14Speaker 05

  Yes. It's, uh, for those of you listening, it's debrief, uh, debrief, a rundown. D E B R I E F A R U N D O W N dot com.

• 1:52:27Speaker 04

  Thank you. It's, it's geared toward non-professionals. Uh, it's, you know, I believe that it is important for laymen, the people out there to understand how intelligence functions because we go to war or not based on intelligence. It affects our lives whether we know it or not. And while people do not have access to sources and methods, they should understand how it works and the complexities involved. Because again, it's not, it's not what you see in Hollywood. It's not some guy sits in a computer, flips a switch and he's got all the cameras in the world pouring in there.

• 1:53:08Speaker 04

  It doesn't work. It is, it is a different skill set. It is labor intensive. Uh, anyway, I'm, I'm babbling, but it is, and, and every now and then I, I, I babble on about what's going on in the world.

• 1:53:21Jack Murphy?

  That's great. No, Louis, this has been like a super informative episode and actually I would love to have you back at some point to talk like, like maybe zero in on some specific like geopolitical issues. Um, but this has been, this has been a great conversation.

• 1:53:37Speaker 04

  I'd be happy to come back. There's, there's no case officer on earth who doesn't want to babble to an audience and say, listen to me.

• 1:53:45Speaker 05

  Well, we, we deeply appreciate. I, I, I don't want to keep you too long, but I do want to ask you one question about your time, uh, uh, as you're doing, uh, counterintelligence. We had James Olson on, um, you know, who was director of counterintelligence for a while. And he talked about how it's very different than being a case officer and that it, if you let it get to you, it can make you very paranoid. Um, and how was that for you, ending your career in a CI post?

• 1:54:15Speaker 04

  Well, I've, I'll, I'll give you the, the, the spiel should be that every case officer does counterintelligence. It's, it's the only way you survive in the field. Uh, and I've had several counterintelligence positions. Uh, Mr. Olson is, you know, the, the term is used too loosely nowadays, but it does apply to him that he is a living legend. Uh, he is, uh, really good at what he does and he's, he's right. The more you do it, the more paranoid you become because you understand what can happen. And a good counterintelligence officer understands all the possibilities, all

• 1:54:59Speaker 04

  the permutations and starts looking to see which is actually the case in this situation. Uh, but it does, I tell you, I, I, I have been retired since 2010. I, I still look for surveillance. Uh, I step out of my house and the first thing I do is I look up and down the street to see what cars are there. Do I know the cars or the people sitting in the cars? What are they doing? And it's stupid because I'm, I, you know, nobody's going to be following me. I'm nobody other than, you know, if it's criminal activity. Uh, but just like, like an army officer can never look at a

• 1:55:39Speaker 04

  piece of terrain without thinking, how do I hold it? How do I take it? Uh, a case officer looks at everything. Oh, that's a good dead drop. Oh, that's a good meeting site. Oh, I can turn, I mean, I turn corners and I do it in a fashion that gives me a logical way to look behind me. So yeah, you do, you do get, uh, a degree of paranoia. Uh, you do,

• 1:56:05Speaker 04

  you do get jaded. Uh, uh, I, I, I am not judgmental about, maybe I am, but, uh, I'm not stunned by the things people do. Uh, I gotta say, I've probably seen it all. Uh, and I have dealt with people who have done it all and, and they're, you know, people that I would never have over my house for dinner. Uh, so it does skew your view of, of people and life in general. Uh, it, it, it, it, uh, again, I, I apologize for the landings, but it does fuck you up beyond belief.

• 1:56:45Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, I get it.

• 1:56:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. It, it's gotta be hard too, because you could potentially ruin somebody's career if, if like you're wrong and, you know, uh,

• 1:56:55Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:56Speaker 05

  But, but you, but you ruin your job if you're, if you don't pursue it. Yeah.

• 1:57:01Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's, it's a high wire act. I mean, you know, it's always this, just, just like what you just did right now is what a CI officer is going to be doing. I could do this. This could happen. Here it is. And you start looking at all the different permutations and it'll start spinning you up.

• 1:57:17Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a tough job. Let me get some questions real quick. Um, Holmes, thank you very much. Uh, headphone, is that chilly cool? Uh, thank you. There's probably some meaning that I just don't get. I'm too old. Uh, Chapa TV, thank you very much. Number one. Uh, Ryan Joffrey, thank you very much. Uh, for my dead father, Chris, incredible man, patriot. Uh, our condolences. M. Corbin, thank you very much. After the 2008 Mumbai attacks, the relationships between the US and India begin to solidify in any form of, uh, cooperative training.

• 1:57:54Speaker 04

  Uh, training? No, not, not from the, the, the intelligence perspective. The, the Indians, uh, are extremely proud, uh, and do not take, uh, agency training lightly unless it's of a technical nature that they don't have a capability of which, uh, they're pretty well, well-heeled. No, it didn't, it did not change. Uh, it actually, to some extent exacerbated the relationship, uh, because we would not help them as much as they wanted us to help them because the Pakistan issue.

• 1:58:28Speaker 05

  What, is there, um, where is their background in terms of their intelligence training? Who did they like, did they base their intelligence methodology off in any particular country?

• 1:58:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, they, they started from the British. Yeah.

• 1:58:41Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:58:42Speaker 04

  It is, it is, it is modeled on MI5 and MI6. Uh,

• 1:58:49Speaker 04

  but somewhere in the sixties that split off and the, the organization stayed the same, but a lot of the training came from the Russians.

• 1:58:56Speaker 05

  Okay. And then on Patreon, um,

• 1:59:02Speaker 05

  oh, this is, we'll, we'll answer, this is, this question about a Ranger tab. We'll, uh, we'll, we'll answer this question on Patreon. Um, so that's it. Louis, thank you so much. We deeply

• 1:59:15Speaker 04

  Hey, thank you for having me. Enjoyed it.

• 1:59:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, this has been an awesome interview and like I said, I'd love to talk to you again. Um, should I announce who's coming up next week?

• 1:59:25Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:59:25Jack Murphy?

  Uh, I, uh, I'm, I'm sorry if I'm a little delinquent on this. Uh,

• 1:59:31Speaker 05

  While Jack's looking that up, uh, make sure you check out, check out, uh, debrief, uh, a rundown dot com.

• 1:59:39Jack Murphy?

  And please take a look at, uh, our friends at Casa Caribe O Cigars, uh, casacaribe.com. It's what we've been smoking here on the show.

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  Next week, we're gonna have Frank Delazio.

• 1:59:56Jack Murphy?

  Thank you.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  And another ATF agent in studio.

• 1:59:59Jack Murphy?

  So yeah, Frank was on the episode once, or was on the show once before, and he's gonna come in studio. And I think actually, he's gonna, he's bringing one of his buddies with him too. So we'll have him here next Friday. We're definitely excited about that. Thanks for reminding me. So Louis, thank you for an awesome episode, man. Thank you very much. Yeah, have a great rest of your weekend. And I hope to talk to you again soon. All right. Thanks. Mal. All right. See you guys soon.

• 2:00:26Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself.

• 2:01:07Speaker 06

  And it isn't, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together, and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:01:34Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:02:13Speaker 07

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:02:14Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:02:21Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:02:23Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:02:32Jack Murphy?

  Thanks for joining us. Thanks, everybody.

• 2:02:38Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself.

• 2:03:19Speaker 06

  And it isn't, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together, and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:03:45Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:04:27Speaker 07

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:04:28Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:04:35Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:04:52Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself.

• 2:05:33Speaker 06

  And it isn't, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together, and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:06:00Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:06:39Speaker 07

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:06:40Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:06:47Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:06:49Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:07:03Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself.

• 2:07:44Speaker 06

  And it isn't, it's not a judgment thing. It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together, and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets.

• 2:08:49Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:08:52Speaker 07

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:09:00Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:09:01Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:09:17Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa, and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says, and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. Another thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it. And they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and It isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:10:00Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:10:24Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:11:03Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:11:06Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:11:15Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:11:16Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:11:30Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:12:14Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:12:38Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:13:18Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:13:21Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:13:27Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:13:44Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:14:27Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:15:33Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:15:36Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:15:42Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:15:58Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:16:41Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:17:43Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:17:46Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:17:49Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:17:54Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:17:56Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:18:10Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:18:54Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:19:18Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:19:46Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:19:54Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:19:57Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:20:00Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions. I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:20:05Speaker 07

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:20:20Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all. Get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and It isn't something, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:21:04Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:21:28Speaker 00

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:21:59Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:22:07Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:22:09Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:22:13Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:22:15Speaker 07

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:22:22Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:22:33Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all, get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't something, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:23:17Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:23:41Speaker 00

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:24:12Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us.

• 2:24:16Speaker 02

  They're everywhere.

• 2:24:18Speaker 01

  We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:24:20Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:24:22Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:24:25Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:24:28Speaker 07

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:24:35Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:24:48Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all, get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't something, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:25:32Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:25:55Speaker 00

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 2:26:27Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency?

• 2:26:30Speaker 01

  Please help us.

• 2:26:31Speaker 02

  They're everywhere.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:26:34Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:26:37Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:26:40Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:26:43Speaker 07

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:26:50Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:27:02Speaker 06

  Hey y'all, it's Lauren LaRosa and y'all know I always have the latest. So on my new audio series, Love Lately, I'm getting into the conversations we're really having about love, relationships, and our sexual health. Every week, it's me and Dr. Contessa Metcalf, my big sister with a medical degree, breaking down what the culture says versus what the doctor says and helping make sense of it all, get into it. You know, the thing me and my friends don't really talk about is like how you're having conversations with people about getting tested. I'll be honest, so many women don't feel comfortable talking about it and they don't feel comfortable advocating for themselves. But let's go ahead and just put you in a position to where you can kind of empower yourself and it isn't something, it's not a judgment thing.

• 2:27:45Speaker 06

  It brings that peace of mind that y'all can just do what y'all do and have a good time. Yeah. I say get tested together and that's beautiful. Brings you closer together. Listen to Love Lately with Lauren LaRosa from iHeart's Ruby Studio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Gilead Sciences.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. 911, what's your emergency?

• 2:28:42Speaker 02

  Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 2:28:45Speaker 01

  We think they're murder warnings.

• 2:28:47Speaker 02

  911 Nashville returns.

• 2:28:50Speaker 07

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:28:53Speaker 02

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:28:55Speaker 07

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 2:29:11Jack Murphy?

  Girl, guess what?

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Hey, what's up?

• 2:29:14Jack Murphy?

  I'm looking into prep for HIV prevention.

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  Prep?

• 2:29:17Jack Murphy?

  I didn't think that was for women. Same. Then I asked my doctor and she said anyone who is sexually active should know about PrEP. Really? And there are long-acting injectable options. Long-acting? I like the sound of that. Sounds like it's time to talk to your healthcare provider. You can also check out preppistforwomen.com for more information. Sponsored by Gilead.

• 2:29:39Speaker 01

  This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

• 2:29:42Speaker 07

  This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Every friend group has that one person who puts their card down for brunch and sends the Venmo requests. If that's you and your Venmo balance is popping. You need a Venmo debit MasterCard so that you can spend your balance instantly. No transferring anything, no waiting around. So as soon as you get paid back for brunch, you can pay for those concert tickets you've been eyeing or put it toward your next night out. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Learn more about the Venmo debit card at venmo.com/card. Venmo balance account required to get the card and use a balance effective November 1st, 2026. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by The Bancorp Bank, N.A.

• 2:30:21Speaker 01

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.