Pod Insights The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan Erin Murphy (Bewitched) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan About this episode Billy Corgan sits down with Erin Murphy, the iconic Tabitha from Bewitched, for a candid look at what it really means to grow up inside one of TV’s biggest phenomena, pulling in over 30 million viewers a week. Erin shares vivid, almost dreamlike memories from working side-by-side with Elizabeth Montgomery to childhood moments that felt more like play than pressure. She reveals behind-the-scenes quirks fans still debate (including the infamous “Dad switch”), how production quietly bent rules to keep the show running, why fame never hit her the way it hits most child actors and how she's channeled her platform into advocacy for children, autism awareness, and causes close to her heart.
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Transcript 14,930 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 I've always had a strong sense of if you have fame, use your fame for good and not for evil.
0:07 Billy Corgan? The idea that you're cast in a show so young is wild.
0:11 Speaker 00 It's clear I didn't choose at 11 months to be an actor.
0:15 Billy Corgan? Do you see something in yourself that you didn't understand at the time?
0:19 Speaker 00 I feel like I did that. I loved it. I am a very hard worker. I have an extremely, you know, high work ethic. When opportunities are offered to me, I love them.
0:31 Billy Corgan? Somewhere in casting, makeup, stylist, teaching, acting, motivational speaker, and stunt double, there's got to be one good story in there.
0:38 Speaker 00 I've never been, I don't think I've ever been called a failure, at least to my face.
0:41 Billy Corgan? No, I just, I guess, I just, I was really struck that you didn't seem to carry any of the weight or damage that so many people of our generation that were child stars seemed to kind of struggle with.
0:52 Speaker 00 Some people see a glass half full, some see a glass half empty. I see the pretty glass.
0:57 Billy Corgan? Okay, here's a selfish trivia question. Have you watched every episode you're in?
1:01 Speaker 00 Um, yeah, of course. Of course. I didn't say I'm not narcissistic and self-centered. No, okay.
1:09 Billy Corgan? Erin, thank you so much for being here. So nice to talk to you. A little bio, just kind of set this up. It's things you all already know, but it's to set up my thing. So Bewitched premiered on ABC September 64, and you were born, I believe, June or July.
1:28 Speaker 00 June of 64, so I premiered right before.
1:31 Billy Corgan? So I didn't have my notes, but it's in there. So you're just a little, little baby. And the show ran until March 72. There were 254 total episodes of Bewitched. You were 108, I believe, if that's accurate. I saw a clip where you said 108, so I'm quoting you on that.
1:44 Speaker 00 I'm not even sure. I've heard 108, 118.
1:47 Billy Corgan? I've seen 103.
1:48 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:50 Billy Corgan? The show was produced by Screen Gems, who also produced The Monkees for fans of that period of time. Screen Gems did a lot of cool shows.
1:58 Speaker 00 They did.
1:58 Billy Corgan? They had a little bit of a kind of cult or culture thing.
2:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, a little bit. Monkees is a good example.
2:03 Billy Corgan? Absolutely. Kind of in a weird coincidence, maybe, Jackie Cooper, who was himself a huge child star, was actually the person who sold the show.
2:15 Speaker 00 That's true.
2:16 Billy Corgan? To the networks, which I thought was so interesting because he too, like yourself, sort of faced like being a massive child star and then sort of facing, you know, what comes after that. The first season of the show, it was the number one show. I looked it up, I had to dig around. It was averaging 31 million viewers a show.
2:35 Speaker 00 Which is unheard of. There are no shows that do that anymore.
2:38 Billy Corgan? Think about that in modern times. That's like NBA finals or something, right? That's every show. It was preceded in, when it first started behind My Three Sons and before Peyton Place, if anybody remembers that show. When you came on in season three, when you were two, right? Is that?
2:57 Speaker 00 It was right before I was two.
2:59 Billy Corgan? Okay, geez, wow. Season three, it was the number seven show. So when you came on, it was, it was only doing a paltry 12 million viewers per show.
3:09 Speaker 00 Still top 10. Number, I think it was, I think it was the number one ABC show still at that time.
3:15 Billy Corgan? So you got me there. So real quick, because I know you know the story, is it true they saw you in a stroller or something? Because the idea that you're cast in a show so young is wild.
3:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not true that they saw me in a stroller for Bewitched. What happened was my dad had a business college in North Hollywood and I have a fraternal twin sister. So my mom would take us, two little twins in a double stroller and everywhere my parents would go, people would say, oh my goodness, little blonde twin, they should be on TV and that type of thing. So I was discovered in a stroller and did some commercials before Bewitched. But I actually, when Bewitched came along, I already had an agent and auditioned.
4:01 Billy Corgan? Okay, I didn't know that part. Have you seen the commercials of you as like a baby baby?
4:05 Speaker 00 Yes, yes. There, there's one that I, it's so funny because the first one I have on, whatever that old film is called, so I have it on a reel where, it was for Folgers Coffee. So I actually have that one. But the one that I was most famous for was with Ronald Reagan.
4:22 Billy Corgan? Right.
4:22 Speaker 00 It was back when he was the spokesperson for Borateam detergent. So I was a little topless baby toddling around and he's talking about using Borateam to wash your diapers. And so that, that one I have, and I post it every now and then on social media because people get a kick out of it.
4:40 Billy Corgan? Finally, okay. So. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is Elizabeth Montgomery, the star of the show, very beautiful woman, was married to William Asher, who was the producer-director of the show.
4:54 Speaker 00 One of the directors. He was definitely the producer.
4:58 Billy Corgan? But he was the producer.
4:58 Speaker 00 Yes.
4:58 Billy Corgan? So kind of a power couple thing. This is her starring vehicle thing that they'd sort of put together. And the reason you kind of come into this whole equation is she got pregnant, and they had to find a way to sort of figure out how to keep her on the show pregnant.
5:12 Speaker 00 Sort of.
5:13 Billy Corgan? Okay.
5:14 Speaker 00 She was pregnant when they filmed the pilot of the show. So she was pregnant with her first child. Two years in, she was pregnant again. So they're a couple, married couple, having children. So yes, at that point, they thought they didn't need to hide her pregnancy since Darren and Samantha were married, and it was logical that they would have a baby. And they thought it would lead to kind of new, cool storylines about, is Tabitha magic, that kind of thing.
5:44 Billy Corgan? I know you've been asked about this period of your life extensively, and I'm always uncomfortable to ask the same question. So I thought childhood memories are very interesting because they're sort of dreamy. Do you have a dreamy memory of being on set?
6:00 Speaker 00 Oh, gosh.
6:02 Billy Corgan? You know what I mean? Like the ambiance of the thing.
6:04 Speaker 00 I know exactly what you mean. A lot of it, it is kind of dreamy. That's a good word to describe it because I have such specific memories of certain times on the set. And it usually revolved around animals. So when we had a baby elephant on the show, and I think I was maybe three, I might have only been two. I absolutely remember it because I remember what the baby elephant felt like. And I remember being outside the studio, you know, the stage doors and like touching the baby elephant and getting some of the paint on my hands and things like that, that I'm not remembering from watching the show. So like, Things are, I say this to people, you kids remember things that are memorable, like walking, like I remember seeing them walk on the moon when I was five.
6:48 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
6:48 Speaker 00 I remember, you know, sitting next to a chimpanzee and like playing with a chimpanzee. And all, so they're very early memories that are kind of dreamy.
6:57 Billy Corgan? But you remember the ambiance of a sort of a Hollywood set in that, in that time period?
7:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's, it's funny because even coming here today, people always say, well, be careful, there are wires and be, you know, like, like you're walking on a set, be careful, you don't want to trip. I don't even look down because literally since I could walk, I've been on sets where there are wires on the ground and I know that they're there and I don't have to look down because it's part of kind of growing up as a kid actor.
7:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Now, of course, you, you mentioned it, your, your twin sister, so in the, in the, in the original conception, you're both on set, you said fraternal, so you weren't identical?
7:33 Speaker 00 Yes, we're fraternal, so we really, we don't look any more like than sisters. And even back then, if you take two kids and you dress them alike, like two toddlers, give them the same haircut, put them in the same dress, people say, oh, they're twins. So we didn't look enough alike to be used interchangeably. So even from the very beginning, they would use me primarily from the front and they'd show my sister from the back or from a distance because they couldn't get away with it. We didn't look that much alike.
8:03 Billy Corgan? And this is because of the labor laws, you had limited time on set that you could be working and...
8:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, there are still child labor laws, they're stronger now than they were then.
8:11 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
8:12 Speaker 00 And they used to, I, I didn't know this part until I was an adult, but Bill Asher had told me that they would totally get around the child labor laws by saying, okay, it's time, it's time to switch twins, bring Erin off the set and bring Diane on. And they would bring me back. So they'd bring me off the set and bring me back on.
8:33 Billy Corgan? Wow. It wasn't a question I had written down, but it strikes me. I'm trying to phrase it the right way.
8:43 Billy Corgan? Because you know, you're a parent, I'm a parent. The idea of putting a very young child in this, in a pressure situation. Now that we're adults, we understand there's cameras, there's timetables, there's union lunch breaks. Did you feel any external pressure on you at that moment?
9:01 Speaker 00 It's so much a part of my life that it doesn't seem weird. So when I think about it, I think one of the reasons they used me more and then used me only is because I liked it. I like, I like the lights, I like.
9:16 Billy Corgan? It makes sense to me.
9:17 Speaker 00 I mean, not every kid would sit in a chair. They would tell me, sit in a chair, say this, do this, and I liked it. So I mean, you get it, it's not for everybody.
9:26 Billy Corgan? I worked on a, on an animation project, which hasn't come out, but they encouraged me to put my kids in it. It was like a virtual reality type of thing. And we were talking about it because we were talking about meeting you today, my children and I. And, and they were like, is that, is that thing that we did ever going to come out? And, and they said, you know, were we good in it? And I said, not that good. And my, my daughter says, why? And, and I said, because your brother, we call him Mr. Wiggles, he couldn't stop.
9:55 Billy Corgan? And I'm on a set and I'm like telling my kid like, don't move, don't move.
9:58 Speaker 00 But if it's animation, they can make that part of the character, can't they?
10:01 Billy Corgan? No, no, but in the virtual reality thing, when we got back to the rushes of the thing, he's like jittering because he just can't stop moving because he's, you know, he's at the time, he was like, whatever, six years old.
10:13 Billy Corgan? It just strikes me, the idea of putting a kid in that adult pressure. And of course, we have different perspectives on these things now.
10:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, but I, even growing up as a kid actor, I had great experiences. And I have always been kind of an eternal optimist. So I can see the positive in that career and, and maybe not being a kid actor and doing other things. So it's kind of, as a parent, you see what your kids want to do. If my kids wanted to be in virtual reality or be on TV, I would always encourage it. It's like, I loved it if they love it. Like some kids love to sing and dance. If that's what their thing is, you let them do it.
10:49 Billy Corgan? Well, we call in our family showbiz genes.
10:51 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:51 Billy Corgan? They just have the showbiz genes. So just. I'm still interested in the atmosphere this time. So is there always a parent with you? Who's who is the who is the parent that would like take you?
11:03 Speaker 00 It would switch back and forth. My mom and my dad kind of took turns being there.
11:07 Billy Corgan? She had nice memories then with both of them?
11:08 Speaker 00 Absolutely, but they weren't within eyesight. So yes, they had to be. I know. Yes, they had to be on set, but I I knew that when I'm on set, I'm paying attention to the director. I'm paying attention to my TV family. They weren't always like just out of eyesight. Sometimes they'd be up in my dressing room, which was, you know, up still on the same thing, but not right next to me. I mean, they had child welfare workers, I've been told. But no, I never looked to my parents for comfort when I was on set. It was kind of like, well, no, when I'm on set, I don't look to my parents. I look to the director.
11:47 Billy Corgan? So the trust must have been there with you with.
11:49 Speaker 00 Oh, totally.
11:49 Billy Corgan? Oh, interesting.
11:52 Billy Corgan? Give me some sense of the of the workflow. Are you working, you know, twice a week?
11:58 Speaker 00 It would depend on the script. They would messenger messenger over the week script. And I would look as a kid, I'd look through it with a little highlighter. And like, and I would be excited like if I saw my name a lot. So I'd like highlight my lines. And it would depend. So if it was an episode where my character had more of a focus, then I'd be there Monday to Friday. If not, maybe three days a week.
12:23 Billy Corgan? I see.
12:23 Speaker 00 I still would do every Monday, we'd do a table read. So we would all show up and they'd have this huge table set up.
12:29 Billy Corgan? You'd be part of the table reads?
12:30 Speaker 00 Every time.
12:31 Billy Corgan? Well, that sounds that sounds fun.
12:32 Speaker 00 It was fun. I loved it. So if you watch Bewitched, you know how we had the backyard like outside? That's where they would set up the big table for the table reads. I loved them because they always had like tea and sugar cubes and donuts and things. And we would read through the script. With the writers and everybody there and then they would change lines and.
12:51 Billy Corgan? Sitting, reading through a script with Agnes Moorehead sounds like a dream to me.
12:54 Speaker 00 Agnes Moorehead is a dream. I just, I, I can't say.
12:58 Billy Corgan? I'm obsessed with her.
13:00 Speaker 00 You should be. She was fabulous. I mean, even as a child, I loved her like a grandparent. I have the best memories of her. I didn't know she was famous. I didn't know anyone, you know, I didn't know even the concept of fame. I just knew that she loved me and I loved her and it was fun working with her and she would, I have cartoons, like she would draw me little drawings that I still have and very special lady.
13:27 Billy Corgan? I saw this cool picture. Um, I don't know if it was a set shot where you guys were working, but you were on her lap in a scene, but I could tell with your, the way you were on her, that you had a thing with her because a kid would never, you were laying on her as only a kid would lay with somebody that they trusted.
13:46 Speaker 00 No, it was, I don't know exactly how it happened, but it was a second family. You hear that and it sounds maybe superficial. It's absolutely true. I, I loved my cast members like family members and I remember sitting on her lap and feeling comfortable. And I remember she had these purple and green, like Lucite earrings she would wear sometimes. And I remember just looking at them and sometimes they say, Erin, stop, stop with the earrings. Cause I like to.
14:14 Speaker 00 But no, great, great experience.
14:19 Billy Corgan? One side question, because it just strikes me because of the nature of siblings. Was your sister weirded out when it became more about you?
14:26 Speaker 00 I don't think so because I think my parents might've gone overboard the other way to compensate. So it would be things like, I'd get picked up from work at the end of the day and like Diane went to the carnival and Diane. So it's like they would make sure that she had fun. And so there are advantages to both, obviously. But I mean, at the time, I remember thinking, oh, well, she's probably having as much or more fun than I am.
14:49 Billy Corgan? Do you remember seeing yourself on TV at that time?
14:52 Speaker 00 Sort of by accident, if that makes sense, because Bewitched was on past my bedtime. So I remember waking up and it seemed like the middle of the night and coming out and Bewitched was on and being able to, being able to sit and watch the show. But it wasn't like every Thursday night they, we would sit down because it was maybe on eight or eight thirty, it was on, it seemed late at the time.
15:15 Billy Corgan? Were you doing personal appearances too? I know that was kind of a thing back then.
15:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, personal appearances were a big deal. I think they kind of are now again, but back in the sixties and seventies, it was a thing. So I had to take tap dance lessons because it was kind of a marketable skill, which is hilarious to me. So I would go and do a little tap dance, terrible, not a, not a great dancer, but I'd do a little tap dance, sign autographs, do a lot of parades. And my dad had this, this little pad made up where it'd say, it was already pre-printed. It would say, "My name is Tabitha. I am a witch. Things happen when my nose begins to twitch." And I would, I signed my name once and then
15:59 Speaker 00 they turned it into a stamp, like one of those rubber stamps. So I remember being places and kind of doing this, like that. So it wasn't even really signing autographs. It was kind of like the four-year-old version of signing autographs. But now even, things like that were fun. People were nice.
16:18 Billy Corgan? So as you were saying, you know, you get, you get attached and, you know, I know it's not the same, but being in a band's kind of similar. You're together a lot of times. So it becomes a sort of surrogate family. So you were eight when the show was canceled?
16:31 Speaker 00 Yep.
16:31 Billy Corgan? So was that hard for you? Because suddenly you're, you're, you're attached. You have a, obviously a working relationship, but it's just personal. And I can imagine there were, there might've been people that we don't, didn't see on screen that behind the scenes you felt close to, to like, maybe it was the makeup lady.
16:45 Speaker 00 The prop man, the makeup lady, the wardrobe lady.
16:46 Billy Corgan? So was that hard for you to suddenly detach from kind of this, this working family?
16:50 Speaker 00 It was and it wasn't, if that makes sense. So we went on hiatus, which is our break, and we were, we had contracts to do two more years of the show. So it wasn't like we-
17:02 Billy Corgan? You didn't know there wasn't.
17:03 Speaker 00 We weren't canceled.
17:04 Billy Corgan? Oh.
17:04 Speaker 00 I think people always ask, why was Bewitched canceled? And it wasn't. We had a contract to do two. And I think it's like an addendum to do three. That it was a guaranteed thing. And then we went on our break. And I had plans to like, go to Girl Scout camp, hang out with my friends. So we all got telegrams and letters saying, we have decided not to do the show. Bill Asher and Liz were going through a divorce. And they just, she especially decided just not to do the show anymore. So there was no goodbye. So it wasn't like, we said, you know how at the end of a school year, you cry?
17:40 Billy Corgan? Sure, yeah.
17:41 Speaker 00 None of us had that. We had the, see you soon, we'll be back, kind of thing. So it was hard, maybe in the way that, oh, I miss those people. I wish I saw them more, but I was eight years old.
17:55 Billy Corgan? Yeah, kids move on.
17:55 Speaker 00 I was excited to go to school full time. And I liked, like, kind of like being a kid. So that part didn't hit me maybe until later that, wow, it's like, the show ended. And, you know, we'd stay in touch with Christmas cards. And I was dear friends and still am with Elizabeth Montgomery and Bill Asher's kids. So I stayed in touch with her through her children.
18:17 Billy Corgan? I see, yeah.
18:17 Speaker 00 But there wasn't social media. So it wasn't like you could send a text like, hey, I like your, you know, whatever you're doing.
18:23 Billy Corgan? Okay, so now that we've arrived at this point where the show's over.
18:29 Billy Corgan? Tell me, maybe I'm projecting, but it seems like, did you just move on? And then you just got back into like, normal kid life? Because I know you still did some work. There was commercials and things, but.
18:40 Speaker 00 The way my contract was written, and maybe some of the others, at the time, I wasn't allowed to do other acting jobs while I was on Bewitched. So I couldn't audition for other shows, or movies, or commercials, or anything. So that's why during the time on the show, I only did the show. So when Bewitched ended, then I started auditioning for commercials. And it was kind of that whole.
19:01 Billy Corgan? But is that something you wanted to do?
19:03 Speaker 00 I don't even know. I think so. I mean, I like doing it. I like that there were friends that I would only see at auditions. So I remember being excited about that, like, like, oh, Jodie Foster is here, Kim Richards is here, like that kind of thing. So I did, I did like it. So after, let's see, the show ended in 72. We stayed up in Los Angeles until I graduated from Sherman Oaks Elementary School in 76. And then at the time, our family moved down to Orange County. Since there were all, it was a time in LA where they were about to do busing and things where it was kind of a chaotic time in Los Angeles. And our family moved and I would only really come up to Los Angeles if I had a job. So
19:46 Speaker 00 it would have to be, we want Aaron for a McDonald's commercial. We said-
19:50 Billy Corgan? But did you, did you ever sit down as a family in this kind of like, because obviously the show was its own force, you know, there's, there's a schedule, there's money, there's personal appearances. Let's say it's a machine, for lack of a better analogy. Then that stops. Do you have a conversation around the dinner table at any point with your parents where you're like, do they say, do you want to keep doing this? Or you know-
20:13 Speaker 00 No. There was, there wasn't that. And it, I don't-
20:16 Billy Corgan? Do you find that odd, though?
20:17 Speaker 00 No, because I don't know that parents always ask children what their thoughts are on life and work, even though I was the one working. But go ahead.
20:25 Billy Corgan? Let me ask in a different way then. Because, you know, in my travels, I've met, you know, different child actors and even I was friends with Lisa Marie Presley, who wasn't-
20:36 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
20:37 Billy Corgan? But, you know, we had conversations about what it was like to be famous before she even knew what famous was. So I'm saying, from the perspective of an adult, do you look back, and I'm not asking you to criticize your parents. It's more of a, do you look back and say, I wish I had more say, or-
20:54 Speaker 00 Not really, because there were, there were times I felt like I had say. When Bewitched ended, I went to Girl Scout camp. A call came in to do the Waltons. And I don't remember the exact conversation, but it was almost like, we can pick you up at camp to go do this. And, and I chose to stay at camp and they, they let me do that.
21:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
21:15 Speaker 00 So I mean, I do remember other times where I would be somewhere at a birthday party or doing something that was fun and getting picked up like, oh, you gotta go. You've got a job, you've got an audition. So I felt like in that instance, I absolutely had a say.
21:29 Billy Corgan? I think growing up in Chicago, because television for Gen X, we're basically both Gen X, right?
21:35 Speaker 00 Yeah.
21:35 Billy Corgan? So I keep forgetting, we're like, because I grew up watching on TV. It's like, we're basically the same age, right?
21:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, probably.
21:41 Billy Corgan? We are.
21:42 Speaker 00 I'm 61.
21:44 Billy Corgan? Fifty nine.
21:45 Speaker 00 Close enough.
21:46 Billy Corgan? Exactly. So what I'm saying is, is this idea of like, I think growing up in Chicago, you know, watching television in a basement, of course, most I saw the reruns, but
21:57 Billy Corgan? the, the idea of like, the romanticizing of what it would have been like to be in the Mickey Mouse Club or something. And when I talked to Mickey Dolan's of the Monkees, he was like, I was a child actor. It was kind of wasn't a big deal. Like, one day I was playing baseball and the next day I was on an audition and then I was back playing baseball.
22:14 Speaker 00 Yeah.
22:15 Billy Corgan? You know, and some of my friends would like, they thought it was, who cares? You're on a TV show because it was Southern California in, in the sixties. Does that suck?
22:24 Speaker 00 It, it sort of does. It's weird, it, you, you hit it on the head where not realizing what fame was.
22:32 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:33 Speaker 00 I just always knew everyone knew who I was. If that makes sense. So anywhere.
22:38 Billy Corgan? See, this is my dream.
22:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, yes, yeah. So anywhere I would go as a child, people knew who I was. Like, hi, Aaron, like everyone knew who I was. And that seemed normal because that's all I knew. But. Maybe it was because Bewitched was a show people loved so much.
22:56 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
22:56 Speaker 00 I never had bullying. Like, I, I, kids at school were nice to me.
23:00 Billy Corgan? Wow.
23:00 Speaker 00 And I have always felt almost an obligation to be maybe nicer than, than others because of that. Like, I've, I want people to like me. And it's not because, it's not the weird child actor thing. Like, I want them to like me so I get a job. No, no, no. I like people. I want them to like me. I don't want them to think that, that since I was on a TV show, that I should be treated differently. I, I kind of bent over the other way.
23:28 Billy Corgan? This is probably an unfair way to explain this, but the reason I asked you to even be here was I started following you on social media maybe two or three years ago.
23:36 Speaker 00 And I didn't even know. That's so cool.
23:39 Billy Corgan? I have a secret account. You wouldn't.
23:40 Speaker 00 Of course you do. I don't, I don't. Lots of people do. I do not. I'm only me on social media.
23:45 Billy Corgan? Anyway.
23:46 Speaker 00 I love that. Thanks.
23:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah. You know, it's like one of those things, you know, you see some recommendation, like, oh, cool. And I started following you and I was like, I was really struck that you didn't seem to carry any of the weight or damage that so many people of our generation that were child stars seemed to kind of struggle with.
24:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, I think it's all perspective. I think, I, being an optimist, I see every advantage of being a kid actor. I've traveled the world. I've made good money. I continue to be offered crazy, wonderful opportunities. I've met literally every famous person and musician and people because of being a kid actor.
24:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah, and everybody knows who you are.
24:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, everyone knows.
24:26 Billy Corgan? So by way of introduction, it's a good start.
24:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, but it's, I don't see the negative. I mean, I, I don't feel like because I was a co-star on a popular show, I've never felt, well, since I did that, I should be able to, like, star on every show that's on TV. I feel like I did that. I loved it. I am a very hard worker. I have an extremely, you know, high work ethic. When opportunities are offered to me, I love them, but I don't feel like, well, they should be calling me to star in something else because I did before. So I feel lucky when I get new jobs.
25:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Well, but I, I'm, I'm sure you're aware of the general, we're playing armchair psychologist, but it's, it seems that. Let's start here. Most people have trouble dealing with fame when it seems to go away.
25:13 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:14 Billy Corgan? I certainly remember when when certain people seem to start slowly moving away from me circa one year somewhere back.
25:21 Speaker 00 Which which is so weird to me. I I don't see a problem with it going away because I feel like fame is such a weird thing. And I always I do a lot of like, I work with kids a lot and I do a lot of talking at schools and things kind of behind the scenes that no one knows about. But when you ask a child what they want to be, and they say they want to be famous, fame isn't a goal. Fame is a byproduct of something else, either being a talented musician or being on a TV show or an athlete or music, you know, whatever.
25:51 Billy Corgan? Can I stop?
25:51 Speaker 00 Of course. I'm gonna say no, but yeah, you can stop.
25:54 Billy Corgan? No, people get mad at me for interrupting, but I always think it's we're having a conversation.
25:58 Speaker 00 We are.
25:58 Billy Corgan? It's not an interview. I swear to God, this is a true story. When I was in second grade, they had us fill out a thing and say, what do you want to be when you grew up? And the teacher was going through and it said, you know, Joey wants to be a fireman and, you know, you know, little Louise wants to be a nurse. And they got to me and the teacher goes, famous?
26:18 Speaker 00 Okay, you're one of those kids I talked to because fame is almost the downside of being successful. You're famous because of whatever.
26:27 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
26:27 Speaker 00 Whatever your talent is, whatever, you know, whatever your thing is, makes you famous. The fame isn't the good part. Maybe having some financial success is a wonderful thing because then you can pay your bills. The fame just means everyone knows you everywhere you go. That could be not a good thing.
26:42 Billy Corgan? Sure. So when you talk to kids, what's the what's the general reason you're talking to kids is to sort of say, here's my story and?
26:51 Speaker 00 It depends. There was there was a time and it was it was years ago where I was kind of a motivational speaker, and I still do it speaking. But I went, I would talk at virtually every school in Los Angeles School District and talk to junior high, high school students about bullying, peer pressure, being an actor. And it was almost like they would listen to me more because they'd seen me on TV. And I've always had a strong sense of If you have fame, use your fame for good and not for evil. So it's if someone is willing to listen to what I say, I'd rather have a positive message. So like if I'm on a red carpet, because I still go to a lot of events and things. If I'm being interviewed on a red carpet, I would rather talk about a charity I support
27:36 Speaker 00 or something that I'm doing that has some meaning to it rather than that I'm wearing Prada shoes. So I feel like if I'm being interviewed, I I've always, I don't know, I lead with volunteer work. I think when I was a kid, I started volunteering. So it's kind of like, do something significant.
27:53 Billy Corgan? Do you think maybe you have such a mature perspective about fame because you experienced it so young that you didn't have the mystification that most people seem to have with it?
28:02 Speaker 00 I don't know.
28:03 Billy Corgan? A lot of my ideas about fame, or this town, Los Angeles, came from watching television. And sort of, you know, basically projecting myself into whatever I was watching.
28:16 Speaker 00 Right.
28:16 Billy Corgan? Which is why I have very specific memories of seeing you on television, because I would think, that's so cool. That looks so fun.
28:24 Speaker 00 And it was, and I I did the same thing. I mean, I wasn't just a kid on TV, I was a kid watching TV.
28:30 Billy Corgan? Who would have been?
28:31 Speaker 00 Oh, my goodness, when I was a kid, I would have given anything to be on The Brady Bunch. I was the only kid on set for most of the six years. So the the thought of when we did episodes and other kid actors were there, that was fun. So I mean, I I love this business. I mean, I that would be the kind of thing that I would want to do.
28:49 Billy Corgan? I see.
28:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
28:52 Billy Corgan? So walk me just, you take it however you want.
28:58 Billy Corgan? Now you're back in a normal school, right? Generally, you're still working a bit, but you're not on you're not on a hit show. And at some point in that graduated time between you graduate until when you graduate in 1981. What's your sort of general awareness of like, is it, I got to figure out who I want to be?
29:17 Speaker 00 Not exactly. I still, if you ask me what I want to do when I grow up now, I say, I don't know. I don't know. Tell me, when do I grow up and I'll figure it out. But.
29:27 Billy Corgan? I need your, I need to bottle your optimism.
29:29 Speaker 00 It's one of those things where all through school, like all through high school, junior high school, I, I wanted to do all the things like I was class president, I was a cheerleader, I was homecoming queen.
29:40 Billy Corgan? You would make a fantastic cheerleader.
29:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, I was a good cheerleader. I was, I'm still at like Dodgers games, I'm a cheerleader. I have like little routines. But I, I don't know. It's like I, I had a very normal childhood. And I even feel like being a kid actor, I had a normal childhood because I was still able to do things like be a Girl Scout and, and you know, stuff like that. When the show ended, we were in LA for a few more years, moved down to Orange County. I thought, oh, we're moving away. I was going to change my name. And I thought.
30:14 Billy Corgan? Did you have a name picked out?
30:15 Speaker 00 Well, I was going to use my, my middle name, which I hate. My middle name is Margaret, but my dad called me Peggy. So I thought, I'll be Peggy Mercy.
30:23 Billy Corgan? Peggy Mercy.
30:23 Speaker 00 He, he wanted me to, he wanted me to be a weather girl. That was my dad's dream for me. And for whatever reason, I, I thought, oh dad, you're, no, that's silly. I would have been the best weather girl of all weather girls, but I, I, I thought that was a silly idea. But I thought we would move away and I could be a new person and no one would know me. The first day of school, everyone knew who I was. I wasn't Peggy for even an hour. It didn't last.
30:48 Billy Corgan? Okay. So let's call it post-high school life. You're an adult. This.
30:54 Speaker 00 Sort of. I'm almost a grown up now.
30:57 Billy Corgan? Very good. But I was struck by this and I'm just going to sort of throw these at you and then we'll, we'll go wherever it goes. So I see where you've worked at different times since you became allegedly, allegedly an adult.
31:13 Billy Corgan? You've done casting, makeup, styling, teaching acting, as you said, motivational speaker, and also a stunt double. So before we dive into each category.
31:25 Speaker 00 Dive in literally to that work.
31:27 Billy Corgan? But I was, again, maybe these are wrong questions for your personality, but I was sort of struck by the idea that,
31:36 Billy Corgan? and I'm going off my own experiences, but there are times where it seems to happen more in this town than other places. But it happens even in Chicago where I live, where people kind of remember you the way they remember you. And then they see wherever, whatever you're doing at that, at that instant, and they sort of project it is like a form of failure. Did you get that ever where people are like, kind of like, well, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be over there?
32:00 Speaker 00 No, never.
32:01 Billy Corgan? Wow, you must have had a blessed life.
32:03 Speaker 00 No, it's not even, I'm telling you, it's all in your perspective. It's all about how you think about it. And I've always still want to kind of do everything. I want to go everywhere. I can talk to, literally can talk to anyone about anything because I feel like you, it's important to have a wide base of not just knowledge, but, but interest in other people. So I mean, I'm, I, I don't know, I never felt, I've certainly never felt like a failure because my thing is, okay, I'm doing this, but what else do I want to do? What am I interested in? And just because you're doing whatever, this is for everybody, whatever job you're doing now, if you're working in sales, I worked in sales, you do it. Okay, this is fun. I was the best at that. What else can I do?
32:47 Speaker 00 What, what do I want to do? So you can always change.
32:51 Billy Corgan? So you weren't weirded out if people sort of turned, made it about other things you were?
32:55 Speaker 00 No, because no one ever said, you are on Bewitched. You're, I've never been, I don't think I've ever been called a failure, at least to my face.
33:02 Billy Corgan? No, I just, I guess, I just, maybe I'm more sensitive to it. I just, I get sensitive when people have,
33:09 Billy Corgan? you know, my favorite thing is I'll be walking down the street and somebody will stop me, recognize me, which is always like, and you're like, you know, your natural reaction is like, oh, hey, how you doing? And then like invariably somebody will say, do you still play music?
33:22 Billy Corgan? And I'm like, I just played like, you know, I flashed to the scene in me in Mexico in front of 75,000 people. I'm like, wow, this is so weird. But, but even more so now because of our bifurcated society with how people consume media. If you're not on television in front of their face every five seconds, they literally think you don't exist anymore.
33:41 Speaker 00 But I don't find that to be true. I feel like people who are drawn to you, whether music or acting or whatever, they kind of seek you out. There's a nostalgia that makes people feel comfortable.
33:53 Billy Corgan? And you're okay with the nostalgia?
33:54 Speaker 00 Of course, I love it. Why not?
33:55 Billy Corgan? It makes me kind of uncomfortable.
33:57 Speaker 00 No, no, if people, it doesn't matter. It's like, if people love something you did, and they're telling you how much I love when you did that, they're talking to me about something when I was, you know, two. If they're talking about Bewitched, I mean, if you're talented and people love your music, a song meant something to them, that's such a huge compliment. I mean, seriously.
34:17 Billy Corgan? I need to text you every day.
34:19 Speaker 00 Absolutely. I'll be your free therapist.
34:21 Billy Corgan? I was gonna say, can you explain this situation?
34:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, I could too.
34:25 Billy Corgan? Okay, talk a little bit about personal. Oh, no, actually, no. So, give me one good story from your time.
34:31 Speaker 00 Oh, good story. Go ahead. Go ahead.
34:33 Billy Corgan? Somewhere in casting, makeup, stylist, teaching, acting, motivational speaker, and stunt double, there's gotta be one good story in there.
34:40 Speaker 00 There's a million good stories. There's good stories for each one. That was kind of a thing. I moved to Arizona. I got my money from Bewitched when I turned 21. I did not.
34:52 Billy Corgan? Okay, wait, stop there for a second. So, because there's always those stories about kids' money. So, your parents put everything into a trust or something?
35:00 Speaker 00 It's confusing. People think you either get everything or nothing. The way the laws were written back then, kid actors get something where it's called a Corgan account. Yeah, Jackie Cooper, Cooper, Cooper Corgan, one of those accounts.
35:15 Billy Corgan? Both child stars.
35:17 Speaker 00 They were. But where a percentage of your money from a television show or movie is put into savings. It's only 10%. So, 10% of everything I made was put into savings. My dad was an investor, so I mean, it got the highest return ever, but it was 10%. The rest goes to, you know, wherever, to, you know, agents or managers or, you know, whatever. But so, I got 10%, and it was still a nice amount of money. When I turned 21, Bought a house, bought a horse, um, lived on a little ranch, married, started having a family.
35:52 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
35:52 Speaker 00 And then Arizona, I think still is, but was called a right to work state. Where you don't have to be in a union to do different careers. So I was, that's where I started teaching acting. I thought, oh, this will be fun. So I started teaching acting. I was able to be a makeup artist on big sets and work with, you know, Italian Vogue and things like that. And that went back to, I sold makeup at the May Company department store when I was a teenager. And I was really good at it. And so I, I then learned how to, they came once, they taught all the makeup people how to do makeup. Loved it, learned it. Then I started doing that. I think I was 18 and I was like going to every May Company, teaching people how to do makeup.
36:33 Speaker 00 Moved to Arizona, I'm teaching makeup artistry at an accredited school. So there are people who have licenses I don't have because I taught them, but I, it was fun. Stunt work, stunt work was kind of thrown at me because um, they were filming an HBO movie with um, Virginia Madsen and they needed someone to do, she couldn't drive a stick shift. I love cars. I could drive a stick shift. So um, I don't really look like her, but I guess enough where.
37:04 Billy Corgan? Blonde, blonde from a distance.
37:05 Speaker 00 Blonde from a distance. So um, that was the first thing where I was doing stunt work. Then I got called in to do other things, like some horse stunts and things like that. Because I like to live life without fear. So if, if, you know, they say, Erin, jump off that. It's like, well, okay, it's safe. They've got the thing. There's, okay.
37:27 Billy Corgan? Six kids.
37:28 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
37:28 Billy Corgan? Married three times.
37:29 Speaker 00 Six boys.
37:30 Billy Corgan? Six boys.
37:31 Speaker 00 Yes, that makes it more notable somehow.
37:33 Billy Corgan? I only have one and I don't know how you have six. That is just.
37:37 Speaker 00 It's awesome.
37:37 Billy Corgan? You must be an optimist.
37:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, I am an optimist.
37:40 Billy Corgan? So uh.
37:44 Billy Corgan? Correct me because I know this is inaccurate, so take it where you want. In reading your bios, where I can find them, they often talk about you as an activist. We talked about a little before we started rolling. You said, well, that's not quite accurate, but I love, I love to passionately support things I'm interested in.
38:00 Speaker 00 I, I don't think I would use the word activist. I don't know why. I, I.
38:05 Billy Corgan? But you, sorry, but be fair, you, you were one of those people that came out, you know, at the height of the AIDS epidemic and really stuck your, your, your, your neck out there when a lot of people really backed away from this.
38:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, my thing is, I think it's important to have things that you're passionate about and things you believe in and, you know, organizations you support. I don't know that I would think of it as an activist. It's like, I, like, politics. I would never talk, I don't talk politics publicly at all because.
38:33 Billy Corgan? Here's your chance.
38:34 Speaker 00 I know, no, but the, but the reason.
38:36 Billy Corgan? Sorry, we don't do politics, although, although when we do politics, it becomes.
38:39 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, but this is the reason I don't. I have a platform, I mean, on Facebook. I don't know why. I think I have 400 and something thousand followers. I was on a show in the sixties and seventies, but what I do every time there's an election, I encourage people to vote.
38:54 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
38:54 Speaker 00 I wear my, I just voted sticker. I'm not, I'm, I'm an actor. I'm just a person. It's like, my opinion isn't your opinion. I think if you're lucky enough to have a vote, use your vote. So I encourage people to vote. I don't encourage people to support charities. I do. I encourage everyone, especially kids who are just learning about that, to think about what they love.
39:14 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
39:15 Speaker 00 Whether it's animals or, you know, it could be anything, a library, find something that you're passionate about and you support that because that's more meaningful than just supporting something that someone else does.
39:26 Billy Corgan? So your son Parker, he has autism.
39:29 Speaker 00 Does.
39:29 Billy Corgan? Uh, I have a brother who's, he was diagnosed with functional autism. We're not really sure what that means. That was just with the seventies, but um.
39:36 Speaker 00 That's a long time ago to be diagnosed.
39:39 Billy Corgan? Yes, he was a, he's, he's a rare chromosomal condition and with the rare chromosomal condition, there were other things there that they couldn't quite, so that was the first time I ever heard the word autism. It was like 1970 something was like, I was a, what is that? And of course now, you know, autism, you could call it an epidemic. It's probably not the right word scientifically, but um. Do you want to talk about that at all?
40:02 Speaker 00 Sure, sure. I had have and had always been passionate about children's charities. So when Parker was born, I was president of the Junior Women's Club down in San Clemente. And I was supporting, like I had the whole organization supporting things like there was a local therapeutic riding stable, there were, you know, things like that. So I had always been drawn to charities for different children's needs. And Parker was one of those kids where he had been developing, he had some language, and then just one day it stopped. He had a seizure, he lost all language. And he was diagnosed at age three.
40:45 Speaker 00 And so it's kind of been, as a parent, you want your kids to have the best life. And so it's been, I wouldn't say it's a challenge, but I mean, other people would probably use that word, but figuring out what makes him happy and what will let him have the happiest life because he is profoundly impacted, so he'll always need care. And he actually, it was kind of an amazing thing. He'd lost all of his language and we were at a great elementary school in Calabasas and they had a music program. And as a parent, even though he was in a special education classroom, we made sure that he was mainstreamed as much as possible. So they had him participating in their music program.
41:28 Speaker 00 So this was a child who had no language, didn't say mommy, didn't say anything. And one day, right around Thanksgiving, he sang Beatles songs, start to finish. So we were all together as a family and he sang Love Me Do from beginning to end, over and over and over. And this is a room full of people just crying. So I know, I know. And it was, so for a very long time, music was what impacted him the most. And so they did a program at the school, living statues, where the kids would dress up as someone famous and talk about them. And since Parker couldn't say a speech, I had him dressed as Paul McCartney. And
42:12 Speaker 00 And everyone knew Parker and and so his sign said, I'm Paul McCartney. Ask me to sing Yellow Submarine or Love Me Do. And he did. And so it was just that that was the thing for a while.
42:24 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:24 Speaker 00 Then it wasn't music. Then it was therapeutic horseback riding. So I volunteered at a therapeutic stable and and we got horses at the house. Then it was surfers, things like surfers, healing, where that was the thing that made him happy.
42:37 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:37 Speaker 00 So I think if you're a parent or a family member who has an individual with any special need, it's figuring out what they love and and making their life.
42:47 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
42:47 Speaker 00 You know, as high quality as you can.
42:49 Billy Corgan? And how old is your son?
42:50 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh, he's it is twenties now. He's twenty three.
42:52 Billy Corgan? What would you say to, because like I said, I grew up with the same similar situation. What would you say to parents that are still going through it? Because obviously the numbers are very, very high.
43:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
43:01 Billy Corgan? It's very controversial. Why? We'll skip that part of it.
43:03 Speaker 00 And and I I will say the part that's not controversial. It there are a combination of factors, obviously, that cause autism. Because I have six children and I have one who is severely impacted. It's a combination of genetics and environment and who knows what else. So it's not, there's not one thing.
43:23 Billy Corgan? Well, that's what makes it so confusing.
43:25 Speaker 00 And if you meet, there's a saying, if you meet one person with autism, you've met one person with autism, because it's it's such a wide spectrum that, you know, there are people who are extremely high functioning and very successful, who are on the autism spectrum and there are others who are nonverbal and and struggling with things.
43:44 Billy Corgan? It's a it's become kind of more common in music circles now to describe certain artists as being on the spectrum. As people recognize that that sort of brain capability to almost be flexible in space is part of what makes them artistic.
44:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I mean, there there are famous painters who are who are on the it's it is what it is. But what your question, I don't want to ignore it, was what I would suggest to parents. And I do speak to a lot of parents with kids.
44:14 Billy Corgan? Are you are you are you still doing activism work within?
44:17 Speaker 00 I do. And it's so funny, activism, I I.
44:19 Billy Corgan? Okay, I hate to use the word.
44:20 Speaker 00 I know. And it's not even a bad word. I just I just don't. Associated with myself, so I'm trying to determine for myself if that's the right word.
44:26 Billy Corgan? We can think of a better word.
44:27 Speaker 00 And you don't have to, we don't have to.
44:28 Billy Corgan? No, no, but I like, I love language, so.
44:30 Speaker 00 I do too. That's why, that's why when you're saying it's like, I don't know if that's quite right.
44:33 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
44:34 Speaker 00 But I do, I am still actively involved. So I mean, there are a number of different autism-related charities that I support and I'm passionate with. And I don't, I say this to people, you don't have to support an organization financially to support an organization. I am much more hands on the ground, you know, like feet on the ground, get, get my hands dirty, really support it in person. What can I do? So I always, you know, talk to parents, to large groups, one-on-one about, there are so many resources available. And it's kind of figuring out where you live and going to, if it's their regional centers, and I think virtually every state, finding out what resources are available for your child.
45:18 Speaker 00 Because there are so many things that help the family be more productive, that help the child be more happy. And, you know, we're talking about lifelong needs. So it's kind of, let's figure it out. Let's, let's make sure that the family is getting support. So, you know, the mom and dad can go out to dinner and there's someone who can care for the child. There are so many things available that I don't think people know about.
45:40 Billy Corgan? Okay. Thank you.
45:42 Speaker 00 This is a lot in one thing, huh?
45:45 Billy Corgan? Oh, we're just getting started.
45:46 Speaker 00 I know, I love it.
45:48 Billy Corgan? So the magic of, of the, of the time period where you came of age on television is that these shows not only are still in syndication, but because of fast channels, now there's basically somewhere there's a Bewitched channel where the shows are playing endlessly.
46:04 Speaker 00 No, it's, it's, I think it might be a little known fact, we're one of the only television shows where we filmed in the 60s and 70s, and we have never been off the air. Bewitched has run continuously since we filmed it and it's still on in a hundred countries.
46:19 Billy Corgan? That's just.
46:20 Speaker 00 So, I mean, it's and right now it's like Hulu picked it up a few months ago, all eight seasons and it's on Amazon Prime.
46:26 Billy Corgan? Cause my kids knew that I was meeting you today. Now they want to watch. So that's perfect.
46:30 Speaker 00 I think they would like it. Tell them, tell them, hey kids, um, tell them to watch. Um, I started the first episode of the third season. And I found that kids especially like that because that was the year and the episode where Bewitched went to color.
46:44 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
46:44 Speaker 00 So I think they'd like all that.
46:46 Billy Corgan? When we used to watch in Chicago, they only showed the color episodes for some reason.
46:50 Speaker 00 I've never seen the black and white episodes.
46:52 Billy Corgan? Really?
46:53 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. I've all, and it's funny because I don't know why, but I think it was one of those things where I don't want people to think I'm conceited. I don't want somebody walked, walking by like, oh, Erin's watching herself on TV. So I never went, I mean, when we were kids, the color episodes were the only ones that were on. Those were the ones in syndication.
47:11 Billy Corgan? In my mind, the, the color episodes are part of what I remember because the, the sets were always like lavish, like,
47:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:18 Billy Corgan? especially Agnes's costas, those purples and greens and very kind of psychedelic and.
47:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:23 Billy Corgan? So that's part of the memory.
47:25 Speaker 00 Yeah. I think even Nick at Night and TV Land, when they, you know, they brought back all those retro shows. They might've been one of the first to do the black and white, but I wasn't watching them. I went, yeah.
47:35 Billy Corgan? Okay. Here's a selfish trivia question. Have you watched every episode you're in?
47:39 Speaker 00 Um, yeah, of course, of course. I didn't say I'm not narcissistic and self-centered now.
47:45 Billy Corgan? So what do you, uh, you know, there's scarce footage of me as a child and, and even though it's maybe total, maybe four minutes of footage. You know, you find yourself, at least I do, projecting into like what I was thinking or feeling at the time, you know? Cause I just see myself smiling or whatever. And I'm thinking, I was miserable then or whatever. What do you see when you watch yourself in those formative years? I mean, what?
48:09 Speaker 00 Yeah. It's, it's interesting because, um, not just Bewitched, but also home movies. My dad was such an early adopter to like the little.
48:18 Billy Corgan? Movies too.
48:19 Speaker 00 Yeah. But all the home movies are us like waving and walking away. It's, it, we just transferred them. It's just like.
48:24 Billy Corgan? I think it's everybody's home movies.
48:25 Speaker 00 There's not a lot to our home movies, but, um, when I watch Bewitched, it's, it's fun for me. And I really don't watch it that often. I mean, I, I need, cause I have grandkids now. I need to get them watching it. They think they'd like it. But, um, when I watch the episodes like Jack and the Beanstalk or one of the episodes where I was, you know, it was a. I was the focus of the episode. I remember so many things about filming. So it's it's fun remembering, oh, I totally remember walking in and they had like the dry ice making the smoke. And it's still, I don't know, I like all the the memories.
48:54 Billy Corgan? But what do you, I mean, I don't know how to explain it. Do you see something in yourself that you? I don't know, it's like, uh, I'm terrible at asking this question, but do you see something in yourself that you didn't understand at the time?
49:10 Speaker 00 Not really, not really, I mean, I, I don't know, I wouldn't say that I didn't understand the time because I was keenly aware that we were making a TV show. It's not like I was there thinking, oh, well, this is, you know, that it's real life.
49:23 Billy Corgan? Is there any, I don't want to say this again, this is maybe too much projection, but is there any sense of loss? You know what I mean? Do you ever wonder like if I hadn't done, I I know, I know you think it's a positive, so I'm not.
49:34 Speaker 00 No, no, no, you can ask.
49:35 Billy Corgan? But is there, is there a sense that, I don't know, do you, do you ever think about, well, if I hadn't done that, would my life gone in a different direction or?
49:42 Speaker 00 I I know a hundred percent that my life would have been different if I hadn't been on Bewitched. But um, I wouldn't say it's a sense of loss. I mean, when I, when I watched the show, it's fond memories and I feel lucky to have that footage. You know what I mean? I, it's like.
49:57 Billy Corgan? Especially in HD, it must be cool.
49:58 Speaker 00 Oh, it's so cool. It's like, it's like, oh, my God, like, most people don't have that. And being friends with Elizabeth Montgomery's kids, I have more photos and obviously video with their mom than they do. So they might have like, you know, they have five photos. We, we have publicity photos from every.
50:13 Billy Corgan? Extended member of the family.
50:15 Speaker 00 Totally. But I wouldn't, I, I don't feel like I missed anything. There, there are only a couple of times when I think back, because I'm self, I mean, I'm not a Pollyanna completely. It's like I'm, I'm, I can see the good and bad, I just choose to remember the good. The bad, that the only thing I can think of is there were times like I would be at a birthday party and I had been told, you can't go in the pool because you have to work or you have an audition. And so I remember things like that and um, the mom, because they were our next door neighbors, let me go in the pool. She said, I'll dry your hair, your mom will never know. So I remember that because my mom showed up while she was drying my hair. And I remember thinking, oh, no, this is not a good thing.
50:55 Billy Corgan? Um.
50:56 Speaker 00 Wait, I'll do one more. The only things looking back on my childhood, because as I said, I like to do everything. I didn't get to really do sports because you can't have a ball flying at the moneymaker. You know, and and I wasn't allowed to hang from my knees on like, you know how kids do that?
51:15 Billy Corgan? Hurt yourself and break an arm.
51:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, you can't. You can't break an arm. You can't. You can't do that. So as an adult, I went with one of my good friends. She was taking trapeze lessons. And I I want to do everything and I did it one time because I did it perfectly. So there's a person down below. You're up on this high trapeze. And I was there with a group of wonderful girlfriends and they say things like, point your toes. Let go with your hands. Grab the catcher. And because I'm so well directable, since I'd been directed my whole life, they told me what to do. And I knew I had to do it. So I was the only one in the group who pointed their toes, who let go and could catch the the person's hands in swing. So I thought, OK, I've done it. It's like it was fun, but I don't need to ever do it again.
51:59 Billy Corgan? Um, because they did grow up in our kind of world as like a TV family. And I guess I'm asking more for personal reflections. So I just want to work through the cast a little bit because I feel like that's what's crazy about television. And and again, we grew up in an era where television was so much more. It imprinted on our brains, I think, so much deeper than than modern media does.
52:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think one of the reasons is because back then we only had, what, four networks? And so television was, they called it destination TV where it's Thursday night. A whole family is sitting down, watching a show. So it kind of meant more when you had to see it live.
52:41 Billy Corgan? Nice.
52:42 Speaker 00 Does that make sense? So it's like, everybody was watching the same show. So the next day, everybody would be talking about, you know, one of three shows they're on. Now, I don't even know how many networks we have. Everybody's watching. You don't have to watch.
52:55 Billy Corgan? Well, you don't even have to watch at the same time.
52:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:57 Billy Corgan? What I remember is this this being stuck in the reruns, right? So we saw the reruns like 800 times.
53:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, we did too.
53:04 Billy Corgan? Um, so if you just don't mind, more so personal reflections, because, you know.
53:10 Billy Corgan? Like if you say to me, Elizabeth Montgomery, like my memory is all based on what I saw on television, but I don't know the person at all, which is weird. So you kind of, and I know people do it to me too, and I know they do it to you, where they kind of, they think you are.
53:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's, it's interesting, and I will answer about Elizabeth Montgomery, but you led me somewhere else.
53:29 Billy Corgan? Please.
53:29 Speaker 00 It's interesting on social media where people feel the freedom to act like they know you. And so they're constant, like if you go on, say a Facebook page about any TV show, for example, Bewitched. If you go onto a Facebook, Facebook page dedicated to that, the conversations and arguments that people get into as if they know the people involved about, well, this happened and this happened. And that's why it's like, they only know it because they read it somewhere else. And so it's like, they don't really know. So it's, it's a weird, it's a weird thing.
54:02 Billy Corgan? That's why I thought to ask you because, you know, for example, using Elizabeth Montgomery as an example. Very beautiful woman, never really broke out, say, beyond the television acting ranks.
54:17 Speaker 00 Fair. She did films before Bewitched.
54:20 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:20 Speaker 00 And she did some great TV movies after Bewitched.
54:23 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
54:23 Speaker 00 So like Lizzie Borden in A Case of Rape, she definitely.
54:26 Billy Corgan? Lizzie Borden, I remember.
54:27 Speaker 00 Was that good? I do too.
54:28 Billy Corgan? She's so hot in it, by the way, just as a, as a red-blooded male. But, but.
54:33 Speaker 00 What is the, is the naked with an axe part that you like?
54:36 Billy Corgan? Hello, hello. The word for, I'm a goth, you know, it was like, you're hot and you're holding an axe. But um, I guess what I'm after is, I think you understand the thread that I'm after a second, if you just bear with me.
54:52 Billy Corgan? She'd obviously, because of, because of the way the systems worked out here in the 50s and 60s, she obviously had the, the looks to be a top actress.
55:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
55:02 Billy Corgan? But back then, there was also that stigma about television.
55:07 Speaker 00 And there wasn't. It's interesting.
55:09 Billy Corgan? Tell me because you were there.
55:10 Speaker 00 There really wasn't because at the time, and it's funny because I'm, I was part of it. Golden age of television, television was so new. So everyone did television. Agnes Moore had been nominated for an Academy Award and did a TV show. We had like Peter Lawford, who's a Kennedy. We, people were not afraid. There was not a stigma television.
55:31 Billy Corgan? You think that came later, maybe?
55:32 Speaker 00 It must've come later and now it's gone again because movies starting on the clock, Kidman's on TV constantly. But, um, no, there really wasn't a stigma.
55:40 Billy Corgan? Maybe it was a seventies thing.
55:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, people, yeah, people wanted to be on TV.
55:45 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
55:46 Speaker 00 And because it's, it's steady work and I don't think anyone understood the concept of it will be on forever. Because there are hugely famous, famous movies that people haven't seen. So they're constant things. Elizabeth Montgomery's father was, was a famous. Yeah, Robert Montgomery.
56:03 Billy Corgan? Huge star.
56:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, huge star, but people will say, but Liz Montgomery was so much more famous than her father. No, she wasn't. He was nominated for Academy Awards. He was as, you know, as big as.
56:13 Billy Corgan? He was a top male actor.
56:14 Speaker 00 Absolutely. But, but people of our generation, younger, don't know him.
56:18 Billy Corgan? Yeah, I was just, I was just, uh, I guess what I'm trying to set up is, uh, somebody tried to groom her for, for bigger stardom. She was obviously a huge TV star. You're around this person a lot over an eight year period. And I know you guys maintained some relationship afterwards. So just give me a snapshot of her, the person and the artist.
56:38 Speaker 00 She was not like Samantha. And I know.
56:41 Billy Corgan? That's so funny.
56:42 Speaker 00 And I've spent so much of my, I'm very protective of other people as well. So that's why it's like, you ask me a question, I have a positive answer. It's like, sometimes I have to think, no, you're, you're asking for more than the surface thing that people want to hear.
56:54 Billy Corgan? I want you to tell me.
56:55 Speaker 00 No, and I'm an open, I'm an open book, so I will, I will always be candid.
56:58 Billy Corgan? I'm not a dirt, I'm not a dirt guy. I'm more like, I want to know the truth.
57:02 Speaker 00 The truth, the truth. But no, she was nothing like Samantha. Just like, in a weird way, Lucille Ball was not, I love Lucy. Even though that's who we love and that's who we kind of want them to be. She, she was a businesswoman who was actively, Liz and Lucy were businesswomen actively involved with the production of their show. She was at a point in her life where she didn't want to do movies. She had a family, but she wasn't a stay at home mom. I've. I spent a lot of my life thinking, well, I want to be a stay at home mom because my two biggest role models, my mom and Elizabeth Montgomery, were stay at home moms. It took maybe being a teenager to young adult to realize Elizabeth Montgomery was the furthest
57:44 Speaker 00 thing from a stay at home mom. She was on set working all day and they had a nanny. So you know what I mean? So she was a beautiful woman, but this is a kid's recollection, which may not be kind, but it's my honest recollection. I saw everyone come in before makeup. At the time, she had a stand in who worked on the show sometimes. She was, she was Sleeping Beauty in an episode, was Liz's stand in. I saw her stand in come every day with her hair and makeup done and she was 20 years old. And I thought, oh, she is so much prettier than Liz. I called Samantha mommy. So if you hear me say that, couldn't say Samantha, so I called her Samantha mommy. So I remember being fascinated. It's one of the things that led me to be a makeup
58:28 Speaker 00 artist, being fascinated by what everyone would come in looking like and just how transformative hair and makeup was. So she is a beautiful woman, but it's like I saw her as kind of, it's like, you know how you see your mom and they look different at home than maybe when they go out to dinner with somebody? So I saw her as that. I also saw her side where she wasn't necessarily as soft and kind as Samantha. She was a businesswoman and she was serious and definitely had that side. She was also, and I've said this, she had a very dirty sense of humor and so do I. I know I got that from her. She was a guy's girl.
59:09 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
59:10 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? Like as
59:11 Billy Corgan? There's a toughness in her personality that is, I think that's what makes her interesting.
59:16 Speaker 00 Oh, no, she was fascinating. I mean, I'm not saying things that are disparaging. You're asking what she was like. She was a woman who had many male friends, but wasn't really a girl's girl. So there's that whole, there's that whole thing. But no, she was great. I mean, absolute role model, loved her.
59:33 Billy Corgan? What was your relationship after the show ended? I mean, you said Christmas cards, but like when you got to be, when you got to be an adult, did you guys?
59:41 Speaker 00 That was it. Christmas cards. She was the mom of my friends. She, she definitely in opposition of how I am. She did a job and left the job and that was it. She never talked to Dick York after he left the set. There, there's some lovely stories out there on social media about how she showed up when he was dying and that. No, he left the show and she never spoke to him again. So there's that, that, that I, I can't quite wrap my head around as an adult because I'm still friends with my childhood friends and my high school friends.
1:00:14 Billy Corgan? To be fair, some people, that's just the way they are.
1:00:16 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:00:16 Billy Corgan? They turn the page and they.
1:00:18 Speaker 00 Yeah. And that's what she did. So at, at her home, which I went to with, with her kids as an adult, there were no pictures that bewitched up. So there would be, you know, photos from other jobs, but no bewitched photos. So I, I know she liked the show. She was actively involved. She was great on the show, but it was a job and she moved on.
1:00:37 Billy Corgan? Oh, interesting.
1:00:38 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:00:39 Billy Corgan? I know we talked about Agnes Moorhead. So circling back to her, obviously a very distinguished artistic career long before she was on the show. Worked with Orson Welles, Mercury Theater, was on the famous War of the Worlds broadcast, which set the world into a tizzy. Was in Citizen Kane.
1:00:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's, that's the worst one. Magnificent.
1:01:02 Billy Corgan? We're on the magnificent other show. I can't even say magnificent. I actually practiced saying magnificent in the shower and I still don't have it.
1:01:07 Speaker 00 Oh, that's so cute.
1:01:09 Billy Corgan? I don't know why it doesn't roll off the tongue. It should.
1:01:11 Speaker 00 But it's a good word. It's, it's a good title.
1:01:13 Billy Corgan? Well, you're magnificent. So.
1:01:14 Speaker 00 Oh, thanks.
1:01:15 Billy Corgan? But, um.
1:01:18 Billy Corgan? So I know you, you look at it optimistically, but it seems to me with her creative pedigree. Was there any sense that this was a step down for her as an artist?
1:01:30 Speaker 00 Nope. Nope. And that's another one. I was there. She was happy to be there. She was professional as can be. She was nice to everybody.
1:01:42 Billy Corgan? She just seemed so cool.
1:01:43 Speaker 00 She, yeah.
1:01:44 Billy Corgan? Does that make sense the way I read it?
1:01:46 Speaker 00 It's in, people ask me.
1:01:47 Billy Corgan? Somebody like, you're like, I want to hang out with her. She just seems like.
1:01:50 Speaker 00 She was, she was the early drag queen, actually, is what I, what I always say. But, um, no, she was, um, people always ask if she was intimidated or if I was scared of her. And no, I mean, from day one, I just.
1:02:03 Billy Corgan? She's just cool.
1:02:04 Speaker 00 Totally cool. Absolutely.
1:02:06 Billy Corgan? Like, some people are just like 40 years ahead of their time.
1:02:10 Speaker 00 Right.
1:02:10 Billy Corgan? She's one of those, like, if she was, like, if she was a contemporary now, people would be fascinated with her.
1:02:16 Speaker 00 But they were then. It's like, I think I'm asked about Agnes Moorehead as much as Elizabeth Montgomery. And it's because she's, she was fascinating. I mean, smart and funny. I mean,
1:02:26 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:02:26 Speaker 00 just wicked sense of humor.
1:02:28 Billy Corgan? I found this Dick Cabot clip where she's talking about how she owns a farm. It would have been, it would have been right around the time the show had ended.
1:02:35 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:02:35 Billy Corgan? Did you know about that, where she, she had a farm?
1:02:37 Speaker 00 I didn't know about the farm. I knew about the big house that she had in Beverly Hills, like the flats of Beverly Hills.
1:02:42 Billy Corgan? Okay.
1:02:42 Speaker 00 But, um, yeah, I knew, I knew things like she had an acting school. And she was very involved in kind of nurturing young actors and teaching them the seriousness of it. She definitely wasn't someone who would put up with people being late and things like that. Like she, like she expected people to respect the time and process of, you know what I mean?
1:03:06 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:06 Speaker 00 I've, I've been on sets where someone, it's not that long ago, I've been on sets where someone will show up an hour late. And that person should be and usually is fired.
1:03:15 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:03:16 Speaker 00 There's so many people around, and there's so many people with talent, and there's so many people who are beautiful, that you have to have a certain work ethic to be successful. And so she didn't suffer people who didn't.
1:03:29 Billy Corgan? Now, she's a, this is my parlance, but she's like a pro's pro.
1:03:33 Speaker 00 Oh, absolutely.
1:03:33 Billy Corgan? You can see it. You never see her phoning it in on those shows.
1:03:37 Speaker 00 No, no. And that's why it, it, I don't, I don't usually respond when people post things on social media. Every now and then, if someone posts something negative, I'll come in, I'll do a strongly worded paragraph, mic drop, and exit. But when people say anything about, well, Agnes, there's rumors that Agnes Moorehead didn't like Dick Sargent, and Agnes Moorehead was difficult. She was the most professional person ever. She, and I didn't even hear her say this, there's one quote she was attributed to when Dick Sargent came in, that I don't like change. And you know what? I don't like change much either. But, um, she was kind to Dick Sargent. She, you know, so I don't like when people act like they have, they have an inside scoop that isn't true.
1:04:22 Billy Corgan? If you look at the, the glass half full, the fact that people still care about a show that's been off the air for 50.
1:04:28 Speaker 00 Yeah. I always say, some people see a glass half full, some see a glass half empty. I see the pretty glass.
1:04:37 Billy Corgan? Of course, there's the famous two fathers, the two dicks.
1:04:41 Speaker 00 Two dicks.
1:04:44 Billy Corgan? So I guess because, you know, I know it's often told about this idea, he hurt his back and that's Dick York and Dick Sargent comes in, but I guess that the only thing I thought to ask you about it all is just like, from a TV perspective, it's just strange. You just change a character out and everybody's supposed to pretend, only on television. But from an inside perspective, was it suddenly weird that like, it's the same show, but there's a different guy? Not to make it personal.
1:05:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, it wasn't weird only because I had been there. I worked three years with Dick York before Dick Sargent came in and I saw that he was in pain. And even as a child, he had this board, it was like a leaning board on set. So he'd have to lean in between scenes. And he told me as an adult that one of the things that would get him through is he would sit and tell me stories and that he was a dad. So it's like, I was a kid on set. So he was very paternal. And he said, I would take his mind off the pain. But for viewers of the show, we, the last season, especially with Dick York, there would be episodes written with Dick York. We'd do the table read with Dick York. Then something would happen where he couldn't be there. He was in pain.
1:05:55 Billy Corgan? And they started writing him off the show, kind of.
1:05:57 Speaker 00 And so, yeah, so there would be episodes that had Dick York and then we would not film it with Dick York. So there were, I think, seven or eight episodes in that, in that
1:06:05 Billy Corgan? He was on vacation.
1:06:06 Speaker 00 Season where he wasn't there. So what they did before they brought Dick Sargent in, they aired those seven or eight No Darren episodes in a row. Thank you. No one would notice. It's like, no one will notice. Though we'll bring back Darren, I'll think it's the same guy. Obviously, everyone noticed, but that was it. And I think Bewitched is credited as having the most actors change characters of any show. And they reference it on, you know, Roseanne and things.
1:06:34 Billy Corgan? Two of the actors has passed away?
1:06:36 Speaker 00 Yes. The first Gladys Kravitz passed away.
1:06:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, she was wonderful. I didn't work with her.
1:06:43 Billy Corgan? What a strange, I'm just, God bless her. I'm saying it's what a strange thing that you have a show that has all this success and it's just like you're.
1:06:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, for that one, they had to hurt. They didn't want to write out the nosey neighbor. I mean, everyone still says Gladys Kravitz, but.
1:06:57 Billy Corgan? Such a great character.
1:06:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, so that was one. Oh, gosh, Marion Lauren, who played Aunt Clara.
1:07:04 Billy Corgan? Lenny Kravitz, that's what I was like.
1:07:05 Speaker 00 So cool.
1:07:05 Billy Corgan? Kravitz.
1:07:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, I went to a thing where it was like a karaoke thing a few years ago where he was there singing. It was like, he's a cool dude.
1:07:15 Billy Corgan? So, I'm trying to think of how to approach this the right way.
1:07:21 Billy Corgan? Obviously, it's all out now that Dick Sargent was closeted homosexual at the time. That that would be the term that people use at the time. I don't know what term people are using now. I don't want to offend anybody. But at some point during, during, you know, more of a gay rights stuff, he finally came out, admitted that he'd been closeted and.
1:07:42 Billy Corgan? I'm not asking you to remember as a six year old whether he, you know, you recognize that. But looking backwards as an adult and seeing and knowing him as a person, I mean, can you at least speak to that a little bit?
1:07:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:52 Billy Corgan? Because that's, that seems, I don't know, it just strikes me as maybe particularly painful. I mean, here he is, a closeted gay man, he's.
1:07:59 Speaker 00 But he wasn't closeted on the set.
1:08:02 Billy Corgan? Yeah.
1:08:02 Speaker 00 If that makes sense. I mean, I was, I didn't even know what sex was. I was a child.
1:08:05 Billy Corgan? Sure.
1:08:06 Speaker 00 But at the time, he was an openly gay man in a relationship and, and, you know, Liz Montgomery, everyone on the set knew that. It wasn't a secret. Obviously, back then, it was a secret from the audience because it just wasn't done back then.
1:08:20 Billy Corgan? There's a book that's come out. I wish I could tell you the title, but it's, it's, I bought it thinking it was highlighting the, the female stars of the 30s, like the MGMs, you know, this, you know, the Greta Garbo's and stuff like that.
1:08:34 Speaker 00 Sounds like a good book.
1:08:35 Billy Corgan? It is interesting, but, but I didn't realize until I was reading it that it was really mostly about the closeted lesbians in the 30s.
1:08:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:44 Billy Corgan? And there were, there were, that Garbo was closeted, Marlena was bisexual, and Garbo and Marlena had had a relationship back in Berlin. And that was, they had a very frosty relationship in LA because they needed to not let everybody know.
1:08:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:58 Billy Corgan? But. But the thing that strikes me and dovetails with what you're saying is that everybody in the business knew. It wasn't like the people who were closeted to the public were out in the business.
1:09:11 Speaker 00 Right, right. There's a certain, I don't know, like veneer to Hollywood. Like everyone wants their star is shiny and perfect. And nobody's shiny and perfect. So it just, it wasn't open back then. I mean, I think, I can't think of an open, I mean, Paul Lind, he wasn't openly gay to the, he was America's favorite bachelor if you watch him on game shows.
1:09:33 Billy Corgan? Somehow I knew Paul Lind was gay even though I didn't know what that was at the time.
1:09:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I mean, but that wasn't even discussed. So it was just, it was just a different time.
1:09:43 Billy Corgan? It strikes me as, I don't know if you, I just was wondering if any personal observations that it's, he strikes me as emblematic of the times where here he is, open within his community, open with his working partners, which he were one of. And then, and then having to live this closeted life and then in the, you know, in the, let's call it the, the time of AIDS.
1:10:04 Speaker 00 I'm trying to think when that was. It was probably the very early 90s when he came out.
1:10:08 Billy Corgan? 1991, perhaps.
1:10:09 Speaker 00 Yes, and okay, and I know because I was, I was very closely tied to him around that time. And he came out because he was about to be outed by a tabloid. He didn't even have kind of the luxury to come out on his own time. So it was one, I think that happened a lot around that time. But he and I were, there was, there's been talk every five years or so about doing a Bewitched remake. And we were actively talking about it back then. The scripts were terrible. So he and I were the ones that we don't want to do it. And we were the only ones who really would have. But I don't know, he and Liz rode in the gay pride parade. And so that was kind of the big thing that showing not only, you know, that he was coming out, but also the support of him.
1:10:53 Speaker 00 And I asked to be in the car. I was, I'm a huge supporter. There wasn't, there wasn't room in the car for three, or I would have been there with.
1:11:00 Billy Corgan? Yeah. Um, yeah, I guess it's, I guess what I'm after is it's interesting now that we can look back because the show continues to be relevant. I'm looking forward to showing it to my children because I know they'll enjoy it. I enjoyed it. But this idea that. Social media, the internet has created sustain in ways that none of us could have figured on, right?
1:11:23 Speaker 00 Fair.
1:11:24 Billy Corgan? So there's still interest in these people, their talents, their personalities, and sort of what created the dynamics for the show.
1:11:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:11:31 Billy Corgan? And of course, in the sense of bewitch the oddity of switching out the TV dad. Midstream is always a topic of fascination and of course, occasionally even shows up on late night jokes, you know?
1:11:44 Speaker 00 All the time.
1:11:45 Billy Corgan? Right.
1:11:45 Speaker 00 And it's referenced in movies and TV shows.
1:11:47 Billy Corgan? Well, you know, my last question on here was like, you know?
1:11:50 Speaker 00 Your last question, we're barely done.
1:11:52 Billy Corgan? You can ask me whatever you want.
1:11:57 Billy Corgan? I put something sort of general like life lessons, but it seems to me that the life lesson is in everything we talked about. Your optimism is so startling.
1:12:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, it's, this is my life. I mean, I think everyone needs to, if you take one thing away from it, this is your life. You can make it whatever you want to make it. And whether that means, hey, I'm gonna go walk on the beach today. Like you decide what your day is.
1:12:20 Billy Corgan? You're getting me so motivated.
1:12:21 Speaker 00 No, it's true though. So it's like for me, there were many years where I loved the entertainment business. I love it. I made a decision.
1:12:31 Billy Corgan? I'm learning to love, I'm learning to love.
1:12:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, and it's like, and if you're doing it, you need to love it or do something else.
1:12:36 Billy Corgan? Well, yeah, I've been there too.
1:12:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, but no, I made the decision that when I had children, I wanted to raise my children. I saw examples of nannies raising the children of actors. So I did turn down acting jobs. And then I was lucky to come across things like hosting jobs and things where I was contacted, would you like to be a correspondent? You can work three days a week and film five shows a day and be home, you know, make breakfast in the morning and be home to get your kids. So I have continuously, when my kids were younger, looked for things I could do and be a mom. You know, it's like do everything.
1:13:12 Billy Corgan? I just got it all, I saw the whole picture.
1:13:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, you know what I mean? It's like, so I can do what I love and be a mom that I love and volunteer and kind of make everything work.
1:13:21 Billy Corgan? Yeah, well, when we were chatting just before we went live, I was kind of trying to explain to you the reason I wanted to do the show. And I think you're the perfect example of why I wanted to do the show, not just with you, but why I wanted to do the show at all, which is in the world that you and I grew up in, our only value is the greatest thing we ever did.
1:13:41 Speaker 00 But that's not our only value.
1:13:43 Billy Corgan? No, that's my point.
1:13:44 Speaker 00 It's not even.
1:13:44 Billy Corgan? That's why I've enjoyed talking to you so much. Because you took something that you didn't really have a. Well, you started working as a baby.
1:13:51 Speaker 00 As a baby.
1:13:52 Billy Corgan? It's not like no one asked you.
1:13:53 Speaker 00 Yes, correct.
1:13:54 Billy Corgan? You're working. And so that's why I had these questions about, you know, did you look back and feel like somehow you didn't have agency over the decision making?
1:14:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, it's clear. I didn't choose at 11 months to be an actor, but I.
1:14:07 Billy Corgan? It would have been pretty good.
1:14:08 Speaker 00 No, but I can choose how I react to that experience. And that experience was the greatest thing ever because it's led to so many other things and why I'm still working and why you asked me to be here. Because I don't care about being relevant. I just care about having a happy life.
1:14:22 Billy Corgan? But see, this is what makes you relevant because.
1:14:26 Billy Corgan? And I think this is where American culture needs to mature. This is just my soapbox opinion, which is like, if you take people of value and you tell them your only value is the thing that we decide you have value on, which is like, we're just going to look at your whole life and decide, okay, these three years or this one album, that's your value. You're really missing the point because it's really about the journey, what you do with that journey.
1:14:46 Speaker 00 Absolutely.
1:14:46 Billy Corgan? In your case, you were handed something very, very young and you've made the absolute best of it.
1:14:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was a great thing and I have a great life.
1:14:52 Billy Corgan? Thank you.
1:14:52 Speaker 00 Of course, it's a pleasure.
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