How to Actually Calm an ADHD Nervous System (And Change Your Life)

ADHD can go unnoticed for decades, especially in women who learn to compensate through perfectionism, overpreparing, and working under pressure. It often isn’t until the demands of work, motherhood, or another major life transition become too much that the underlying struggle comes into view. In this episode, I sit down with ADHD counselor Jenna Free, author of The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation, to explore what she calls the frantic-crash cycle. She explains how chronic fight-or-flight may intensify ADHD symptoms and why nervous system regulation can make other tools and strategies easier to use. You’ll learn: Why women and high achievers can compensate for ADHD for decades before their usual coping strategies stop working How perfectionism, procrastination, and working under pressure can keep the frantic-crash cycle going The physical signs of nervous system dysregulation, including shallow breathing, muscle tension, and rushing even when there’s no real urgency Why calming your body is only the first step in creating lasting change How you can move away from all-or-nothing behavior and build a more sustainable way of getting things done A diagnosis can help you understand how your brain works, but it doesn’t have to define what’s possible. By learning to recognize and regulate survival mode, you can create the conditions for your brain to work at its best. View Show Notes From This Episode Sign up for Dr. Hyman’s Brainshaping Academy to learn how to nourish the biological systems that support your mental, emotional, and cognitive health https://drhyman.com/products/brainshaping?utm_source=dr_hyman_show&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=may_27&utm_content=link Get Free Weekly Health Tips from Dr. Hyman https://drhyman.com/pages/picks?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Sign Up for Dr. Hyman’s Weekly Longevity Journal https://drhyman.com/pages/longevity?utm_campaign=shownotes&utm_medium=banner&utm_source=podcast Join the 10-Day Detox to Reset Your Health https://drhyman.com/pages/10-day-detox Join the Hyman Hive for Expert Support and Real Resultshttps://drhyman.com/pages/hyman-hive This episode is brought to you by Bioptimizers, Fatty15, Timeline, Rho, Seed, and Sulighten. Shop Magnesium Breakthrough at bioptimizers.com/hyman and save 15% with code HYMAN. Head to fatty15.com/HYMAN today and use code HYMAN for 15% off your 90-day subscription Starter Kit. Support healthy aging and get up to 20% off when you subscribe on top of the new starting price of $79 at timeline.com/drhyman. Explore science-backed products at rhonutrition.com and use code HYMAN for 20% off the entire site. Make your microbiome part of your daily routine with seed.com/hyman and save 25% with code 25HYMAN. Discover why so many people are using sunlighten.com, use code HYMAN to save up to $2,100 today and free shipping. 0:00 Understanding the impact of fight or flight and overview of ADHD discussion 2:01 Functional medicine approach to neurodevelopmental issues 4:38 Rising ADHD diagnoses in adults and coping strategies 9:25 Life transitions and the unmasking of ADHD 13:22 Revisiting fight or flight’s role in ADHD and urgency as a motivator 19:24 Differentiating ADHD from chronic dysregulation 24:03 Nervous system regulation for everyone and ADHD regulation stages 25:46 Physical, thought, and behavioral regulation techniques 41:53 Motherhood, stress, and overlooked signs of ADHD in women 44:28 Gaps in traditional ADHD training and new perspectives for clinicians 48:09 Recognizing dysregulation in daily life and common signs 51:29 Supporting partners and mothers with ADHD 53:16 Positive aspects and living well with ADHD 54:51 Jenna Free’s book, resources, and podcast conclusion

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight. That's the main complaint of ADHD. So the symptoms go down because the dysregulation is going down. Enjoyment of life goes up. So we have a much higher quality of life when we're out of fight or flight. Kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is we're really flapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it. All you can do is cope. Good luck to you. No, it can get so much better.

• 0:28Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 1:11Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 1:52Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Head to fatty15.com/hyman today and use the code HYMAN for 15% off your 90 day subscription starter tip. Welcome Jenna to the podcast. So great to have you on. I'm excited to talk about ADHD. It's a big problem for a lot of people. I think you have a very interesting frame on it and an interesting way for people to navigate, you know, differences that people have that are often debilitating if you don't know how to handle it. So I'm really happy to get to talk about this.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Me too. Thank you.

• 2:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So I want to, I want to, I want to dive into it. Particularly your framework around how biological dysregulation, nervous system dysregulation really amplifies the symptoms and makes functioning sometimes very hard in people with ADHD. And you know, I just want to sort of start out by first saying that, you know, we are a spectrum of expressions as human beings and not all of our neurological differences are pathologic or problematic. In fact, they can be superpowers. And I think, you know, we're going to talk about that, but it's how you harness them and how you regulate yourself to use those differences in a way that actually help enhance your life rather than harm your life.

• 3:01Dr. Mark Hyman?

  But with that, with that said, I wanted to just zoom out for two seconds and give people a perspective that I've developed, you know, as a functional medicine doctor, treating patients with the whole spectrum of neurodevelopmental issues from dyslexia or ADHD to all the way to autism spectrum disorders and the whole gamut in between. And I think, you know, there, there are, there are increasing evidence that, that the brains are very responsive to what's happening in the body. And that a lot of times when people have dysregulated brains, it's often can be factors that are treatable, whether nutritional factors, nutritional deficiencies,

• 3:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  gut issues, environmental toxins, infections, food sensitivities. There's a lot, there's a lot of things that go into understanding how to optimize brain health. And I've written a whole book about it called The Ultra Mind Solution. We have a course, a curriculum on it called The Brain Shaping Academy, really about how do we optimize our brain? But that's sort of a topic for another podcast. I just wanted to sort of lay that out there as, as, as something people actually should pay attention to. If they're struggling with ADHD, they should really understand that there are, there are often biological causes that should be looked at as well as just learning how to actually, you know, enhance your superpowers with, with the talents you have. So that said, I want to sort of dive in by asking you Jenna,

• 4:27Dr. Mark Hyman?

  why are so many adults, especially women and people who are high achievers, suddenly being diagnosed with ADHD or ADD in their 40s, 50s and 60s?

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Absolutely. So, you know, societally, we did have a traditional view of ADHD. It's the little boy running around the classroom. And whether it be nature or nurture, little girls don't always act the same. So we go under the radar, myself included. It's a little bit more internal struggle and a little bit more working hard to compensate. So from the outside, it's like, you're doing okay. Your grades are all right. You're not too disruptive. Just kick you along and that happens long enough. And then as you become an adult, you get more responsibility. And I know for me, that moment came, I was diagnosed at 32,

• 5:17Speaker 00

  when I had two kids and under two years and my life just was too big for my coping mechanisms to keep up with. And I really saw like, I don't think this is quote unquote, normal, what I'm experiencing, the level of overwhelm and intensity and struggle I was having. So that's when I started looking into, you know, just typing in my symptoms. What's going on here? I didn't have the label even to myself of ADHD yet. I just knew something doesn't seem quite normal.

• 5:46Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And what were you struggling with?

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Uh, I would say overwhelmed was probably the biggest, like sweeping the floor felt like, oh God, how am I going to get the energy? It's just too overwhelming. My favorite quote that is in the book, um, that I told my college, asked my college roommate, do you ever not want to take your socks off at night? Because then you have to put them back on in the morning. Like God, really just overwhelmed by daily life and thinking my capacity was low. And then of course, throw a newborn baby and a one and a half year old in your arms and it just all falls apart and I couldn't, I couldn't cope.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  And that's where it kind of fell apart where, oh, I was overwhelmed by just me.

• 6:31Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And so, and you think people just sort of lived with this and don't have any way to sort of contextualize their symptoms and think it's just them and there's something wrong with them?

• 6:39Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Like, oh, life's just hard for me, I guess. And kind of carry on until often a breaking point of, you know, my coping mechanisms don't work anymore. So I also work with probably mostly women, some men as well. But I would say almost everyone's over 35 that's been recently diagnosed. Because, you know, it was working. I was able to frantically get stuff done the night before and just cope and keep my head above water. And then as we age, of course, biologically things change as well and just can't do it anymore. And then the cracks start to show and then people are seeking something to explain it.

• 7:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

  People have a lot of coping strategies that sort of hide their ADHD. Like perfectionism, people pleasing, over preparing, working under pressure. Like, you know, talk us, talk us through some of these coping strategies and how they kind of mask what's really going on and then prevent people from really interacting with what's going on with them in a way that allows them to, to be fully thriving.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  So, you know, I'm going to bring this in early because this is what I work on is, you know, I have seen that every ADHDer I've met, I understand it's anecdotal, but it's thousands of people are also in fight or flight. So being in fight or flight can mask the struggles you're having or you're at least surviving, right? You are keeping your head above water. Perfectionism is a mechanism of being in fight or flight, right? Protection. If I do this perfectly, no one can criticize me. No one can get mad. I can't get in trouble. Always feeling like you're about to get in trouble. And so you're just always trying to get out of harm's way. Doing those things at the last minute procrastination to urgency cycle. But then we feel like, well, it's a superpower. Look, I can hammer out a huge work project in one day.

• 8:27Speaker 00

  So maybe this is just the way I work. And so you can see a lot of overcompensation masking. But all of those things are also symptoms of being in fight or flight. So it's a very tricky kind of ball of yarn that we're unraveling once we get an ADHD diagnosis. My wish and goal is that the first move is, oh, you have ADHD. Okay, let's get you out of fight or flight first. And then maybe we're adding in, you know, the functional medicine stuff. We're adding in the coping mechanisms, we're adding in the tools and the strategies. But if we have a brain that's different and that brain is in fight or flight, it really is gonna feel like that debilitating thing that people right now call ADHD.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  And I, I think the field is putting it all in a bucket and calling it ADHD instead of realizing, oh, the ADHD brain tends to fall into this state. Let's get it out of this state and make it a lot more manageable.

• 9:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I want to get into the dysregulation, the nervous system dysregulation that makes ADHD a lot worse. Sometimes, you know, people don't know they have it and it gets unmasked when things are happening in their life, whether it's, you know, becoming a mother like you did, or, you know, working on your career, or when you have to be a caregiver of your parents or going through menopause. Like, how do these major life transitions actually start to sort of trigger awareness that there's a problem?

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Well, I definitely see it as, you know, I love a good metaphor is I have been keeping my head above water. Well, that does not leave much room for anything to change, right? So, once there's a little bit more to manage, I'm now drowning. So, it's like I've just been, it's just here, you know, there's not a lot of room. If we're functioning where water is waist height, I can handle some changes. I can handle transitions, I can handle more. But if you are just getting by, which, you know, being in fight or flight, the survival mode, that's the definition of it, of just not dying. And then now your parents are your responsibility, or the responsibility of kids raises that water. You can't not face it anymore because you're going under.

• 10:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  For you, like, your, your, your awareness really started when you were thirty-two. You're in graduate school, you're raising two young kids. What kind of finally pushed you beyond your ability to deal with things and compensate?

• 10:44Speaker 00

  I think it really was just the amount I needed to handle. As I said, I was just handling life before kids. So, you start creeping that water up and I'm, I'm starting to drown emotionally. I, you know, had a quite, not extreme, but definitely noticeable postpartum depression. I do think that was a direct reflection of my level of dysregulation. I was, like, now that I'm drowning, I'm really unhappy and I can't catch a break and I can't get a breath of air and I was like panicking.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  And so, that really started to go, like, I can't go on this way. It's just really hitting that wall of, okay, I was getting by, but I'm not getting by anymore.

• 11:36Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And then you, you kind of realized you had to do something different?

• 11:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I got the diagnosis, which was great, like, oh. Historically, I make a lot more sense to myself, I see why I do what I do. But then I carry on, carried on with life and I was like, but nothing's changed just because I know something, right? That ADHD label doesn't solve any problems.

• 11:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  No, and, and you're talking about these sort of highs, intense highs and crashes, and you thought maybe you had bipolar depression, what was actually happening then?

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that was the fight or flight. So, I really was in like two modes and dysregulation, right? Just like when we have a fever and our temperature is dysregulated, I'm too hot, now I'm too cold, now I'm too hot. Your body's compensating in both directions. Well, same when we're in fight or flight, I'm really intense, kind of running from the bear energy. And then I collapse and then I'm intense and then I collapse. And so, we'll call that ADHD. We will think, oh, that's a normal part of the experience.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  But now that I focused on regulation for a while, I'm so much steadier. So, that up and down has really relaxed. And it was really interesting when I got into this field, how I expressed this feeling of, you know, I was almost like, am I bipolar? Like, sometimes I'm intense and going hard and sometimes I'm crashed out and frozen. And the amount of misdiagnosis of bipolar disorder that people get before they get an ADHD diagnosis was so interesting.

• 13:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  The, the, yeah, people get all kinds of different labels, right? It's like, um, they don't really see what's happening. When you talk about this frantic crash cycle and you see it a lot in adults with, with ADHD, can you talk about what that is and what it means and how, how you experienced it?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  You know, when we're in fight, flight, freeze or fawn, because a lot of people think freeze is the crash. But that's just another expression of my system is feeling so unsafe that I'm reacting in a certain way, like a deer in the headlights. I like people to think of that freeze as deer in the headlights, not collapse, because it's different. Um, but when we're in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, it's a very biologically intensive state to be in, right? You have that allostatic load, like constant stress and I'm intense, this is intense. Well, your body cannot sustain that forever and so you will crash, just like if, as when we were primal beings, which we still are, we're just in a modern world. And you're getting chased by the bear and the bear leaves, now you're gonna go collapse in your cave, right?

• 14:07Speaker 00

  And then when you get back up, you're on hypervigilance, I'm on alert, where's the bear? And then I collapse back in the cave and so that's what's happening, but we're not in danger. So, it's really negatively affecting us for no, you know, you're not benefiting from it whatsoever.

• 14:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And that just creates like a lot of, of disruption in your life, right? I imagine that was very disruptive.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  You know, I've really started to see that our society actually rewards sustainability more than intensity. Like, if you can show up at your job every day, make some progress, chip away at it, you are gonna get so much further than I'm showing up for a few days, like a really intense way, and then I'm collapsing for a few days. And then I'm, whether you're an entrepreneur, working at home, that is not a rhythm that works well in our world.

• 14:53Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 15:36Dr. Mark Hyman?

  In simple terms, it helps your body renew. Its mitochondria, so your cells, can produce more energy more efficiently. The healthier mitochondria, the younger you tend to feel. And that's why Timeline has become part of my daily routine and why I recommend it to anyone interested in supporting healthy aging from the inside out. Visit Timeline.com and use the code HYMAN for twenty percent off your order. This episode is brought to you by Row Nutrition's Liposomal Dim. And here's the thing most women are never told. A lot of symptoms, people write off as, quote, just hormones or mood swings, a stubborn weight around the hips, the skin issues, the PMS that derails your whole week. Well, they're often an estrogen metabolism problem, not an estrogen level problem. Your body produces estrogen, it also has to process it.

• 16:19Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 17:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  But like, what's the long-term cost of using that urgency as the fuel for doing stuff in the world?

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's why we have such high levels of burnout, everyone going on leave of absence. Worked with an alarming amount of people who are on a leave of absence from work because it's not sustainable. Um, and again, like we just mentioned, you kind of gotta live a sustainable life if you want to live a successful life. You want to be able to keep showing up in your life every day. Um, and so it's, it will burn out, you will hit a wall. But also, it isn't really working. Like fear motivators, so guilt, shame, urgency and fear. So I guess those um, like push motivators. I'm running away from something. If we harness those, I understand when you're in fight or flight, it feels like.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  But without that, I have no motivation. But that's because we're stuck in that cycle. Where the only thing that motivates me is being chased by the bear. The minute the threat is gone, my system collapses. So I have to use anxiety, pressure, deadlines, intensity. But that's the inherent trap of dysregulation is it's a cycle. The more I use those negative motivators, the more I need to use those motive. Negative motivators, the more I collapse when they're not present. So now I need them more. And it just gets worse and worse and worse versus when we're regulated. You're in more of a like, oh, I'm fine. I'm okay, I'm neutral, I'm just here. And now I can use my pull motivators, desire and. Oh, it'd be great to get this done, so I have my weekend free.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Like I want to do things and I want to live a good life and I want to get things done. Um, and do fun things. So once we get into those motivators, when we're more regulated. I compare it to like bear chasing energy versus berry picking energy. So when you, you know, when you go pick berries, like, oh, I'm going towards something. I want something, it's a more sustained energy. I'm just collecting, productive, but I could sustain this. Whereas chasing from the bear energy, yeah, damn, you can run fast when the bear's chasing you. Or when your boss is mad at you, or when your deadline is coming. But when that bear is gone, you have nothing left. And you know, that's not going to lead to this sustainable.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Uh, life that we're looking to lead, that's going to be much more enjoyable and much more successful.

• 19:24Dr. Mark Hyman?

  What, what, so how did you come to this idea that, that you're about your central argument, which was that ADHD? And that chronic dysregulation are related, but not the same thing. And then like actually how a lot of things that people think are ADHD. Are actually more dysregulated nervous system, fight or flight. It sort of amplifies it all. Can you kind of walk us through how you've sort of come to understand all that and why?

• 19:49Speaker 00

  When I did start working with clients with ADHD, um, as a therapist. I did some courses, right, to get some specialization. And I could tell, okay, so we don't know what to do with ADHD years. We are giving them tools, tips, tricks, Band-Aids. It felt very Band-Aid to me, like use this timer. If you keep forgetting, use this reminder, use this calendar. It's like, we're drowning here. I don't want another buoy, I want to get out of the water. Um, so I started to see, but you know, but I use that because that's what I was taught. So that's what I used with clients as I started. Of course, they wouldn't do it, they wouldn't do anything. They'd show up to the next session, feeling even worse because they didn't do what was assigned.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Um, and then I started to see, you know, hundreds of hours of talking to people. You start to see patterns like, oh, so we are all in a dysregulated. You know, I'm intense or I'm nothing, all or nothing. That's my thinking is all or nothing, my behavior is all or nothing, my energy is all or nothing. Oh, okay, well, if this is like our main problem. If we got those borders to come in a little bit and that pendulum swing to stop being so extreme. I think we'd get a lot further. So that's what I started working on and researching, you know, how do we do that? What is going on, seeing, oh, that's a, but this is fight or flight that's happening. Okay, well, let's work on that. I am pretty stubborn and a hopeful person of like, if I don't like something, I believe I can make it better.

• 21:17Speaker 00

  I just got to figure out how. Um, so for myself, I really started working on regulation and regulation alone to cope myself. And like within six months, a year, I'm like, I'm a different person. This is crazy. Like I can still see that I have ADHD, I still see some unique thinking. I still see, you know, a couple of little potholes that I have to swerve around and support myself in. But it's like 10% of what I dealt with. I haven't experienced ADHD paralysis in two or three years. Whereas I used to live in that daily. Um, and so, you know, obviously I understand this is anecdotal, but we got to start with theories somewhere of. Okay, well, I see my brain has changed by doing this thing.

• 22:02Speaker 00

  What if the brain, everything we're. Hmm, everything we're contributing to the brain difference is actually the brain difference in this state. Cause we can get out of states, right? The brain is the brain, we have the brain we're born with. Obviously, like you mentioned, we can do other health stuff to support that. But the brain makeup is the brain. Okay, but what if we get it out of that state? What happens? Well, you know, then you start learning how, you know, the symptoms of being in fight or flight are almost identical to the symptoms of ADHD. Do we even know what ADHD is?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Like being in fight or flight blocks dopamine receptors, ADHD is a dopamine. Well, if we separate these things, what are we left with? And so it was really like a question on my end of, well, let's see. And um, it was so cool the other day because I'm starting to train other therapists in this approach. So I just sent out an email to my past clients, like, do you think I should, you know, therapists should be learning this and why? And I was flooded with the stuff of like, yes, I've tried everything else is the only thing that made a difference. Yes, like everything else is a Band-Aid. And these are people who were two years ago, and that's why I love it is like, once you see it, you can't unsee it. Once you're regulated, you know what that feels like and you can sustain it.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  This isn't like a short term tip trick tool that's just going to collapse. Um, when you get overwhelmed, it's, it's really a philosophy and a way of living. When you start seeing, oh my God, my executive functioning goes up when we get out of fight or flight. That's the main complaint of ADHD. Um, so the symptoms go down because the dysregulation is going down. Enjoyment of life goes up, so we have a much higher quality of life when we're out of fight or flight. So kind of my biggest complaint about the current ADHD field is. We're really slapping that label on it and going, everything you're experiencing is ADHD. Nothing you can do about it, all you can do is cope. Good luck to you. No, it can get so much better.

• 24:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, you know, it's interesting, isn't nervous system regulation important for everybody? I mean, you, you, you, you wrote your book, it's called The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulations. The Secret to Finding Balance, Getting Things Done and Enjoying Life. Basically, I think the, the thing I, I, I'm clearly aware of is that it, it may be more important for someone who's sort of got underlying ADHD. But, but isn't this something that's important for all of us?

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Yes, and that is why I'm currently writing my second book.

• 24:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Which is really about how it affects, yeah, how it affects all of us. Cause you, you have this, this, this mo- model, it's called the ADHD Regulation Method, which is three stages.

• 24:40Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And, and involves nervous system regulation, thought and belief regulation, and then behavior regulation. Can you kind of walk us through each of those systematically? So we understand how you're thinking about this. Cause most people will go, yeah, I, I know my nervous system's a little bit off, off. I know I'm a little bit jacked up and I know I'm, I'm a little bit amped up. Like, but they don't know what to do about it. And, and they know it's interfering with the quality of their life, their relationships, their work. But, but it's, it's, it's hard to, to sort of reset the nervous system. It's not an easy thing to do. It's actually easier to change your diet or exercise than it is to change your nervous system.

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Yes, which, which is why people, you know, when I'm talking about this work, they'll go, yeah, but what's a supplement I can take? I'm like, look, you're trying to bypass the hard work. That might also be important, but you know, it's harder work to do internal stuff where you have to manage yourself and. Um, go up against discomfort and, but it's required in this, in the puzzle. We have to have that foundation, so we can't bypass it through like external stuff. We may add the external stuff, um, but just to point that out, but yes, absolutely. So the process is first physical and I really focus on in the moment regulation versus task based regulation. So we have a lot of somatic exercises out there, you know, tapping, breathing exercises, yoga, meditation.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Like, oh, did my meditation today, check, moving on. And then you run around like a chicken with your head cut off all day. And then you meditate in the next morning. Um, so I really focus on in the moment of like getting so good at knowing the exact feeling. Of dysregulation and symptoms of dysregulation. So things like, you know, tense muscles, a lot of us have TMJ trap tension. Cause I'm like on the defense, shallow breathing, rushing, impatience. Um, uh, any physical signs of anxiety, anxiety itself, all of these things. When we're feeling them, we go, ah, I'm dysregulated. And we want to interrupt that physical state in the moment.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  So if you're running down the hallway to a meeting, it's like, oh, okay, dysregulated. Deep breath, relax those shoulders, slow down. We want to communicate to the nervous system that you are not in fact getting chased by a bear. And we can only do that through action, you can't talk to it. But if you're, you know, walking calmly to a meeting, your body goes, oh, maybe we aren't in danger. That's a possibility. And then it's much like working out at the gym, you got to get your reps in. Interrupt again and again and again and again and again. But over time, your body starts kind of naturally going, oh, maybe we don't need to be in this physically intense state. Um, and that's, that's quite a bit more effective than like one off activities.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Of course, adding those activities like breath work and tapping and all that stuff. Icing on the cake, that's great. But if you are drowning, if you are in survival mode, I find giving tasks to be quite fruitless. They aren't going to do it and they're going to feel shitty about not doing it and then it's going to get worse. So this is why I really like this, like, hey, let's just build awareness. And adjustments as you're living the life you're already living is much more accessible. Than any sort of more on the to do list.

• 28:01Dr. Mark Hyman?

  More structured stuff and it'd be something simple is just noticing how you're feeling and taking a deep breath?

• 28:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Well, especially if you're breathing shallow, where that's communicating to your body, danger, danger. Okay, that's going to interrupt that state and go, hey, nervous system, nope. We're okay, we're safe, look, I wouldn't do this if I was getting chased by a bear. I wouldn't slow down and relax if there was actual danger near me, look. Okay, and then you might speed up by the time you're at the end of that hallway, that's okay. We just want to keep bringing ourselves back down physically. Um, you know, even if I'm working and I'm typing something, I might notice my shoulders are a bit up and I'll go, oh, yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  You keep doing what you're doing, like you keep going on with your life. You don't leave. I think that's something we're prescribed a lot of like, take more breaks. No, that's training your nervous system that work is dangerous, breaks are safe. Now it's really hard to work in a regulated way.

• 28:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it's true. And a lot of people, you know, with ADHD or have these struggles, they get told what to do, like here's productivity tools, here's a routine, here's a strategy, a behavioral strategy. But your, your point is that nervous system regulation needs to come before all that.

• 29:10Speaker 00

  Totally. Because a drowning person can't put more on their shoulders, like we have to get you out of survival mode. Now you have the capacity, you have the energy, you have the bandwidth. If you have no bandwidth, don't hand them anything.

• 29:26Speaker 00

  It's pointless. It's just gonna make it worse. Um, and so that's the physical piece, and that's where a lot of people stop, you know? Oh, nervous system is body, it's somatic. Just do that. But our brains are connected to our, it's part of our nervous system, like the way you think, the beliefs you hold are formed based on a body that's felt in danger, probably your whole adult life. So our thinking is now dysregulated, where we are very negative leaning, we're scanning for danger, very anxious thoughts. You know, fear, guilt, urgency, shame, we're often fighting with reality, we're feeling panicked all the time and the, the mental work is like to get us

• 30:11Speaker 00

  out of fight or flight or as well mentally, but a lot of people go, well, you can't think your way out of dysregulation. No, but if you are thinking in a dysregulated way, you're gonna stay in dysregulation. Like we have to get that brain thinking in a regulated way. Which, to me, a big part of it, I try to like sum it up, obviously it's a little more complex, because it's, the brain is a complex place.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  But we wanna align with reality. So a lot of our beliefs are fighting with reality, which is very dysregulating, because you will lose that fight every time, like I'm behind, I need to catch up. That is the number one dysregulating belief ADHDers hold that I've heard.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  So if I believe I'm behind, I need to catch up. I mean, there's no way I'm gonna relax and slow down.

• 30:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Right.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Cause I'm not insane. I'm behind, I need to catch up, I gotta go. I gotta be fast, I gotta be panicked, I gotta be anxious, and I gotta run.

• 31:08Speaker 00

  But that belief, what that belief is saying is I should be over there.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  Okay, but you're here. But I should be further along. Okay, but this is where you are. So it's like bringing that brain back to like, oh, I am where I am. Now let's take the next step from here, instead of I need to be further along, I need to be further along, I'm behind, I'm behind, I'm behind, creates this nervous system goes straight back into panic mode.

• 31:33Dr. Mark Hyman?

  This is like the behavior and this is the thought regulation, right? That, that, uh, belief and thoughts that you have and managing those directly.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Totally. And, and a lot of it's subconscious, so you might not totally realize you're functioning from these core beliefs, but they're always, so it keeps those gears turning and keeps that panic going. You know, another one is that there's not enough time in the day. But there is the time there is, like, why keep fighting that? There's not enough time, there's not enough time.

• 32:02Dr. Mark Hyman?

  This is true, this is true. Fighting with reality is not a good strategy for having.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  No, it's like you're all, you're never gonna change linear time and space, sorry. That's just how it is. Let's make peace with that. You are safe to just be with the time you have. And let's just use it. But if I go, there's not enough time, I mean, that does not give me a relaxed feeling, that does not give me a calm, present feeling. That gives me a panicked, pressured feeling. So now instantly again, back into dysregulation. So if we do not get this brain in congruence with the calm body we're trying to create, nothing will ever change in any sort of substantial way.

• 32:42Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So you're saying to sort of catch your thoughts and your beliefs and be more intentional about like examining them?

• 32:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, first we need to be aware of like, what are my beliefs and thoughts? You probably don't even know, because you're moving so fast through life, it's just like

• 32:55Speaker 00

  subconscious, we haven't stopped to think. Um, or we believe our thoughts, we believe our beliefs, of course, but there isn't enough time. The amount of people that argue with me online, yeah, but I am behind. Okay. But is it not more true that you are where you are?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  And they're like, yeah, but I have so much. Okay, that's all in your brain. It's not, it's not that modern life isn't, doesn't have a lot going on. It's just that we are thinking in a way that puts our system in a panic, it brings blood flow from the brain from our digestive system into the limbs, we're not thinking clearly, our executive functioning is going down, our logical thinking is offline. We can't be creative. We are, now we're in survival mode. Now I'm just trying to not die, which is gonna include a lot of seeking comfort, avoiding all discomfort, scrolling, spending, substance use. And I don't know why I'm doing it, eating, I binge ate for 10 years and now I've have a healthy relationship with food for the last 10 years.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  And I, like, I couldn't binge eat if you paid me, like I physically don't have the capacity anymore, because my system is regulated. Like, it's, it's so interesting how dysregulation affects everything. Um, but that's the, the mind piece, because we must work on our thoughts and beliefs and regulate them, bring them back down to earth. Be at peace with reality, be functioning from, you know, where we are, which is a very kind of bigger, more complex way to talk about grounding. You know, we can put our feet in the grass, but we also need to bring our brain into the physical world. Instead of being up here in what I call potential, shoulda, coulda, woulda.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  Ideals, what ifs, negative self-talk, judgments, it's just like a swirling vortex of dysregulation. Exhausting.

• 34:45Dr. Mark Hyman?

  It's true, it's true. And how do, how do you help people kind of overcome that?

• 34:48Speaker 00

  So we do a few different things. So one is like being aware of that potential in reality. And I always ask my clients, like, how much of the time do you think you're in potential of like thinking about anxieties, what you could have done, what you should have done, regrets, past, future, judgments? Eighty to ninety is the biggest. Ninety percent of your life, you're not even here in the physical world, you are up here in panic mode, in hypervigilance, like, good luck calming your body down. Like, we have to get that brain into like, hey, it's safe to let go. You do not need to be hypervigilant, you are not in a life or death situation here. It's okay to just be where you are mentally and physically and take the one next step from there.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Then we, and then I like to look a little closer and go, okay, what are your specific core beliefs? Kind of what's your narrative you have? And for some people, it's like, oh, there's not enough time, I just feel a scare, time scarcity constantly, and that's like run, that's my motor. Like, okay, we gotta start challenging that belief when it's coming up.

• 35:50Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Although it feels true, right? It feels true. I mean, there's so much I want to get done today, and I never have enough time to do it all, so.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  I just posted something the other day about like, do you not have enough time, or do you just want to get everything done today? Which is more, which is more true? Well, ti- time is what it is, so maybe it's, like, it's a me thing. I'm trying to fit too much into too little of time and saying I don't have enough time. So just starting to realize that where can I make more peace with what is, and that's gonna be, there is the time there is. I can only do one thing at a time. Like, I live in linear time and space. Okay, let's get on board with that. And go for the journey, walk down the path of life, instead of I gotta get further, I gotta get further, like, it's just

• 36:35Speaker 00

  tiring and dysregulating, which then gives us all these symptoms that are so debilitating.

• 36:41Dr. Mark Hyman?

  And, and you're talking about like the behavioral changes too, like, not just a, a thinking changes or beliefs.

• 36:49Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Like, not just sort of somatic practices, but actually, what, what, what actually do you mean by the, the behavior changes that you, you sort of suggest?

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we have the body, we have the mental, and then we have the behavioral, which it's all or nothing thinking that we're really working on, but that creates all or nothing behavior. So we're really working on that behavior. I'm either cleaning the whole house and wiping the baseboards and deep cleaning the carpets, or I'm not even picking the towel up off the floor. I'm either hammering that work project out the night before, I'm not even gonna start. I'm either gonna do it perfectly or not even try. And we get in these behavioral patterns of extremes

• 37:28Speaker 00

  that we wanna start interrupting in a behavioral way. So we have to start finding balance in the way we are physically functioning. So yes, in our body, we need to have more calm, get out of panic. Mentally, we need to be more aligned with reality, but we also need to act in a more sustainable way.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  And so that is going to look you're gonna see that more in your physical being. So, for example, a lot of people who are in fight or flight, even if you're not, are going to, you know, really have

• 38:02Speaker 00

  I wanna say cockeyed, but like imbalanced calendars. Like I try to hammer all, all my meetings on Monday. So I can have Tuesday completely open. That's not regulated behavior. It's like I'm frantic and intense on Monday and I collapse on Tuesday. You're setting yourself up for that. We wanna spread things out behaviorally, uh, schedule wise, environmentally to go, oh, no, I could live this day again and again and again. If you are living your day in a way where you're like, I could not sustain this. We are not in regulated behavior. So that might mean spreading the meetings out over the week. Um, chipping away at a task instead of sitting down and hammering it out for 12 hours and then collapsing after.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  And that's a retraining of the nervous system because it's gonna feel uncomfortable when you've been used to all or nothing thinking, which is a biological mechanism of being in fight or flight. Right? If you are in the forest, in imminent life threatening danger, primarily, we need to think black and white. Safe, not safe, good, bad. Like that's a, that's there on purpose. But now doing it in our situation, I am assuming people are physically safe. It's completely debilitating and gets us in that like I'm doing lots and then I'm doing nothing and then I'm doing a lot. And as we've spoken about, a much more productive and enjoyable life is like that's my sound for regulation.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  It's like I'm making a little progress every day and that's building momentum and building into a great life. And I'm not having these intense collapse patterns with how I'm doing things.

• 39:37Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So it's just really about creating a more regulated nervous system, more deliberate practices, more awareness of your beliefs and thoughts, more simple behavioral changes that can help kind of move you toward a pattern that's sustainable rather than this sort of intense dysregulation and trying to deal with everything. And it's like, i- i- i- I find often people just, you know, just do get overwhelmed and they kind of shut down. They have ADHD.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's not freeze, deer in the headlights.

• 40:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 40:49Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 41:32Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 42:14Dr. Mark Hyman?

  How does that sort of, you know, interact with, with this whole phenomenon that you're describing around ADHD and dysregulation?

• 42:23Speaker 00

  I've really started to see that, you know, a very strong line in the sand with dysregulation of, but it is a stressful time, like having a baby is stressful. So it's normal to be in fight or flight, or of course I'm gonna be even, you know, bigger things. Like I have a very stressful job or this is a very stressful time of life. So of course I'll be dysregulated. Dysregulation and being in fight or flight is only, only ever useful when you're in imminent life threatening danger. So that's something I like to put a line in the sand with of like, yes, I know you're gonna justify your dysregulation. You're gonna normalize it.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  You're going to see reasons why it's valid, but it's always hurting us regardless of if I had two new, two little babies or not, regardless of, you know, where my business is or how much I have going on at work. Um, which just kind of gives me that oomph now and that belief now of like, no matter what I have going on, I'm always keeping regulation in mind. Like, how could I make this better? How could I find some relief? Even if it's a very big stressful situation, where, where is the dysregulation making it worse? So in, you know, having new babies, uh, that was a very hard time for me and that is not my forte. I do not want to go back there and I do not want to have another child because it was very hard. So it's inherently not my cup of tea.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  But my God, had I known about the regulation work during that, I could have really taken a big layer of the suffering off of something that still probably wouldn't have been my cup of tea. Um, but yeah, kind of just speaking to what you're talking about, I think is just realizing, oh, it's, it's always relevant regardless of what's situationally happening.

• 44:07Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, that's true. I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's important to just sort of know yourself and to track your mind and your patterns. And, you know, it's like, I think it's important if you think you have something like this to go kind of root, root around for the causes, but also like to learn how to regulate your system. And I think your, your approach is, is powerful. You know, you were trained as a, as a therapist and counselor. Um, and, and you sort of, you sort of talked about your training a little bit and saying that you just got a sort of a grab bag of tools for ADHD, you know, tools, calendars, worksheets, different hacks. Like what, what did you feel like was missing from your own training around this?

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Yes, it felt like, uh, admittance or hmm, like we've just waved the white flag. Hmm, ADHD is what it is, nothing we can do about that. It's like, would you tell that to someone with PTSD? Well, you're in PTSD, nothing we can do about that. That's just how you are now. You're just in fight or flight now for the rest of your life. Like, no, you would never say that to that person. So why are we saying that to ADHDers? Like, well, this is just how your brain is, best of luck to you. I find that so disheartening because a lot of people believe it. And they think, well, this is just how it is. And, you know, you see a lot of stuff online about it's a disability, it's so debilitating, it's so horrible.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  It's not funny. I agree. It's not funny when you're struggling, but this is not inevitable. It does not have to be this hard. Um, you know, when people talk about superpowers of ADHD, I really do think there's some stuff in there that's really special. You know, being unique is not a bad thing, being different is not a bad thing. But if you're in survival mode, yes, I understand how debilitating that can be.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  And, and the ADHD field loves labels and loves symptom labels of like, well, that's ADHD paralysis. Don't look at it any further. That's just what it is. Accept it and move on. Where in my approach, just as, you know, I work with people, I really encourage everyone to look under the hood of everything. Well, why, why are you in paralysis? What's happening biologically? What's happening in your mind? What's happening? Like, let's dig around there and figure it out. Um, and it's always something, you're gonna pull some sort of thread of dysregulation is not just what it is. And, you know, um, ADHD paralysis is one of those things that I do believe, and this is just a personal, uh, personal opinion, um, that paralysis is freeze, fight, flight, freeze, fawn. That is not an inevitable symptom.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  I do think there's some ADHD stuff that's still present. I would say my mem, my working memory is still rough. That is not something that's gotten better, um, with regulations. I still see a few little symptoms here, but lot of it way dialed down and paralysis wiped out. So, um, yeah, I really just think we don't actually know what ADHD is because we haven't factored for being in and out of fight or flight.

• 47:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  I mean, you know, you, uh, don't you talk about these dysregulation goggles? Um, and, and, you know, in terms of your training, therapists and like, you, you know, you, you, you're probably imagining there could be a different way that doctors or clinicians could start to look for things. So what do you mean by dysregulation goggles? And what should clinicians look for when they put those on?

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Totally. Yes. Whether you're a client or a clinician is like first observing symptoms and behavior as in, okay, well, where's the, the dysregulation here? It's probably for every single client, there's gonna be some fight or flight, some dysregulation of some sort, regardless of whatever else they have going on. Um, and the reason it's so important to look for it is because you can do something about that. Like the ADHD brain I have as the field seems to think is like, that is what it is. So why focus so much on that? Where can I find the dysregulation that I could improve? Um, and so you put those goggles on, you start to see everything in terms of regulation, dysregulation, fight or flight.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  God, everything makes so much more sense when you look at it through that lens, even other people. You know, someone's being so rude, you, oh, you sweet thing. You're in defense mode, oh, you don't feel safe. Like, okay, carry on. Like you're gonna have so much less disdain, you're gonna understand people and yourself so much better of like, look, we are all just little animals running around the world, trying to stay safe. We are not as like developed and like complex as we like to think. And so when you can see that part of ourselves more whole, you go, I see what's happening here. Let's do something about it instead of, you know, over labeling everything and, and assuming it's all just permanent, which is quite hopeless state to be in.

• 48:44Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah. So just to really, just to have a different perspective and understanding that, that there's actually a way through to help people who are dysregulated and have ADHD and can't function as well in life. And that there's, there's a new understanding that helps us sort of come up with a different approach rather than just saying like, just kind of deal with it or whatever we do, you know, like just make a checklist, you know, it's not necessarily gonna fix it. All right. How about we sort of end with a few rapid fire questions? Okay. So what are the most overlooked signs of ADHD in women?

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Overwhelmed. Would be number one. It's like if daily life feels so hard, that's not, we've really normalized a lot of these things as well, even in modern society, not just for ADHD, but for everybody. It's like, well, life's overwhelming. No, that's not normal. That is a sign.

• 49:34Dr. Mark Hyman?

  In terms of the signs of dysregulation, what are you looking for? What are the most common signs?

• 49:39Speaker 00

  Common signs would be physically shallow breathing, tense muscles and rushing. If people can really start clocking their rushing, that would be a really good start. And it's a little bit more physical. So you can kind of access it a little bit easier. If you are ever rushing, you are dysregulated, like

• 49:57Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Really? That's interesting.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  Yes. I tell my clients, even if you're late, I don't care.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  You in a tizzy, panicking is not going to get you there any faster. Like it's not logical, it's reactive.

• 50:09Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's interesting. So what, what is the first thing you do when you notice yourself rushing then?

• 50:13Speaker 00

  Slow down. Like you have to interrupt it physically. You can't think your way out of it. So I had a client who was a therapist and so we're learning this stuff. She's like, yeah, yeah, I know about all this stuff. Okay. But I'll look at, you know, see what I got going on this week. She came back. She's like, oh my God, I didn't realize I was like dragging my son home from school every day. Like, come on, let's go. It's like, to what end? We had nowhere to be. Why was I doing that? I'm just in this state of rushing and intensity and urgency constantly. And it's no, no logic to it half the time. Um, but even when there is logic to it and reasons, it's not going to help. It's only signaling to your system, panic, panic, panic. So like, for example, with that, with that mom dragging her kid home is like, let's just walk calmly, even slowly.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  You have nowhere to be. This is it. This is your life. Like let's, let's be here and, and see what, see what changes.

• 51:03Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, that's a very, that's a very good advice. I mean, I think rushing is, you know, and you feel so overwhelmed. You feel so many things you have to do. You just want to kind of get it all done and it's just counterproductive, you know?

• 51:13Speaker 00

  All that's dysregulation. Trying to get things over with, just because you said that, that's also another sign. Like I'm not doing this. I'm not present in the process and like, like doo doo doo, working through this to get it done. I am like, let's get this over with. Come on, come on, come on. That's a sign right there.

• 51:29Dr. Mark Hyman?

  So if your, if your partner has, is instead of in this overwhelm, what, what can you do for them? Like, how do you, how do you best be a partner?

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Co-regulation is very powerful. If you can get yourself regulated, because ADHD or not, we probably have some dysregulation. You slow down, right? Not adding more to it, not trying to, sometimes overly helping can be overwhelming too. Well, why don't we do this? Why don't, just slow it down, be kind of a like calm presence to kind of support your partner and having them figure out their own stuff as opposed to, you know, rushing things along or trying to fix.

• 52:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  In terms of, um, the, the, the, the mothers with ADHD, what do they need more of to support them?

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Internally, we need more self-compassion.

• 52:22Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Love yourself. That's a good one.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. Negative self-talk is another sign of dysregulation. Your brain doesn't naturally think that way. It's trying to like motivate you in a negative way. Ah, come on, come on, come on. I'm not doing this good enough. I'm not doing that good enough. We have to get going.

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Everything's fine. You are doing a great job. Now, you might still be like, okay, I am being self compassionate and still want to work on them, some things. We can have both. A lot of people think self-compassion is a cop out. I actually did a poll on my social media and eighty, eighty percent of people said self-compassion is a cop out. Like, no.

• 53:00Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's crazy. No.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Yes, we really have this belief of like, if I am kind to myself, I'm letting myself off the hook and being mean to myself is motivating and

• 53:10Dr. Mark Hyman?

  That's not good.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. These are these belief systems that really continue to keep us in fight or flight.

• 53:16Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Yeah, it's, it's true. Most of us in this modern world live in a fight or flight. And even if we don't have ADHD, definitely this, all these tools are applicable. How about on the positive side? What are the, what are the features of your ADHD brain that you love?

• 53:29Speaker 00

  I think I think in a unique way. It's just my perspective, but like I spotted all this stuff because of the brain I have. Like if I didn't have ADHD, I don't think I would have seen this and been able to connect these dots and, and explain it in unique ways and see it in unique ways where people are like, oh, I've never thought of it like that before. And I'm just so grateful to be able to contribute a different perspective. Cause if we all think the same way, why are we all here? If we all contribute the same insights, that's not very interesting. So I just love giving an alternative, even if I might not be, um, seeing the same thing as other people do all the time.

• 54:05Dr. Mark Hyman?

  True enough. Um, okay. Last thing, um, finish this sentence. Living well with ADHD is less about and more about. Fill in the blanks.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Less about the ADHD itself and more about regulation.

• 54:17Dr. Mark Hyman?

  There you go. There you go. Well, this is amazing. I think for those listening, I think a lot of people have some variations, particularly in our modern world, it's just all about distractibility. And I think you can have, you know, constitutional ADHD or you can have acquired ADHD, given how completely fragmented and distracting our society is. And whatever your experience is, learning the tools of self-regulation, of nervous system regulation, of grounding in yourself is so important. And then, and your model really is very helpful. So I, I encourage you to check out your book, Jenna. It's, um, it's the simple guide to ADHD regulation, the secret to finding balance, trying to get things done and enjoying.

• 54:58Dr. Mark Hyman?

  They can get it pretty much everywhere they get books. So Jenna, why don't you just tell us how, where people can find you? Um, where they can learn more about your work and find you on social?

• 55:06Speaker 00

  Absolutely. So my book, this simple guide to ADHD regulation can be purchased wherever books are sold. You can find me at jennafree.com and going to that website will kind of give you all the, all the resources. I have a podcast. I have obviously the book out and a lot of other free resources people can check out.

• 55:26Dr. Mark Hyman?

  Well, Jenna, thanks for your work. Thanks for what you're doing. Bringing awareness around this issue. It's something that affects a lot of people. So thank you so much.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 55:35Dr. Mark Hyman?

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• 56:18Dr. Mark Hyman?

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