‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Is ‘Game of Thrones’ at Its Best. Plus, the Future of ‘Star Wars,’ ‘Industry’ S4E2, and the ‘Landman’ S2 Finale.

Chris and Andy talk about the series premiere of ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ and why it feels like a return to form for ‘Game of Thrones’ (2:12). Then they react to the news that Kathleen Kennedy stepped down as the president of Lucasfilm and what the change means for the future of ‘Star Wars’ (20:53). Later, they discuss ‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 2 (45:29) and the Season 2 finale of ‘Landman’ (01:10:11). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jacob Cornett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:17Speaker 00

  I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 1:20Andy Greenwald?

  Stand up and walk now.

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, the commander, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:35Andy Greenwald?

  Happy Martin Luther King Day.

• 1:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah, man.

• 1:39Andy Greenwald?

  T G.

• 1:40Chris Ryan?

  I was waiting to see if you would acknowledge that. We're here on a Monday because there was just too much TV.

• 1:44Andy Greenwald?

  There was.

• 1:44Chris Ryan?

  You know, and we couldn't record on Friday and I didn't want to record on Tuesday.

• 1:48Andy Greenwald?

  And Brandon Tartikoff had a dream and the dream would be 400 scripted series in his children's lifetime.

• 1:57Andy Greenwald?

  Little white shows and little black shows living together.

• 1:59Chris Ryan?

  That's right. That's right.

• 2:01Andy Greenwald?

  That's what we're here for.

• 2:01Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald, great to see you, man. What a weekend of television, what a weekend of sport. I was thinking maybe we should start doing the last 10 minutes of this podcast are called Sports Center.

• 2:12Andy Greenwald?

  Give me something to look forward to.

• 2:13Chris Ryan?

  And it's just us talking about Sean McDermott, but we have too much TV to talk about today. And so much so that unless you have any pressing personal announcements, we can skip the

• 2:23Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 2:24Chris Ryan?

  Favorite, favorite part of the show for Bill Simmons and get right into some television.

• 2:27Andy Greenwald?

  Is that officially his favorite part? I thought he'd like to.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, that's his favorite. He's always telling me, he's like, you guys, when you guys are just shooting from the hip in the first 10 minutes.

• 2:35Andy Greenwald?

  He tells you that, but he tells me a very different story.

• 2:37Chris Ryan?

  No, he doesn't. We have a new show, the best show, and a last episode of a show.

• 2:46Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  What do you want to talk about first?

• 2:49Andy Greenwald?

  It wasn't the last episode of Industry, even though it felt like it.

• 2:51Chris Ryan?

  No, it was not.

• 2:52Andy Greenwald?

  So, oh, that's the best show.

• 2:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes, we have A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, we have Industry, we have The Landman. The Landman, season two finale, the series premiere of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, and the second episode of the fourth season of Industry.

• 3:05Andy Greenwald?

  You want, is it Pick'em? I have a sense.

• 3:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, come on, let's go.

• 3:09Andy Greenwald?

  Don't you think we should start with Thrones?

• 3:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay, so.

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  That's what got me out to LA, you know?

• 3:15Chris Ryan?

  Game of Thrones.

• 3:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and then I flew back, and then I flew back, and then I flew back, but like in a big picture sense.

• 3:19Chris Ryan?

  And then one day you just stayed.

• 3:20Andy Greenwald?

  We owe this show.

• 3:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Andy Greenwald?

  A lot.

• 3:23Chris Ryan?

  This is the new series in the Game of Thrones universe. This one is showrun and created by Ira Parker, although in, I think, consultation with George R.R. Martin. We'll talk a little bit about that as we go along. This is a completely different kind of look for this franchise, I guess you could say. It's a contained story to some extent. These are based on novellas by Martin. There's six of them, I believe, in existence, though Martin says he has ideas for quite a few others. And it's, it's TV.

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  There's three. Novellas.

• 3:57Chris Ryan?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:58Andy Greenwald?

  But I think you, as a loving member of the artistic community, you take him at his word. In the same way that you were just like-

• 4:05Chris Ryan?

  He did say that he's got ideas for like 12 more or something like that.

• 4:08Andy Greenwald?

  I've also heard, and I don't want to break news here, I'm not Jason or Mallory, but I believe he said he has plans for two additional novels in the main series of Game of Thrones.

• 4:15Chris Ryan?

  Of Game of Thrones, yeah.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  I, maybe I'm misremembering, but I do believe back in 2010, there was talk about that.

• 4:21Chris Ryan?

  Do you, I, well, we can talk about George and his, uh, his ever-changing role in this world. Uh, but I wanted to, I was excited for you to see this show.

• 4:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 4:31Chris Ryan?

  Um, I, I had watched some screeners a little while ago. Uh, we won't be doing any spoilers of the future of this season, although, you know, if you're a Game of Thrones fanatic, you probably know what this series is about. Uh, if you are just going into it blind, as I did going into it.

• 4:49Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, I think it's like a delightful reaffirmation of, and, and revalidation of like what's cool about these stories. Um, and I thought this first episode was awesome, but I can't wait to hear what you thought.

• 5:05Andy Greenwald?

  I thought it was great. I thought it was incredibly entertaining. I think we should shout out Ira Parker, as you did, who's the showrunner of this. Someone, I don't know anything about him. I think he worked on House of the Dragon. I don't know what he particularly brought, like what his pitch was, what the relationship was. Um, I do know that this series was in active development for a while, right? And briefly, Stephen Conrad, who is a fairly well culty but loved, uh, television creator-

• 5:31Chris Ryan?

  Who has another show on HBO coming in a couple of months.

• 5:34Andy Greenwald?

  D-

• 5:34Chris Ryan?

  DTS St. Louis.

• 5:35Andy Greenwald?

  St. Louis, but he's responsible for, um, uh, Patriot, as well as, there was the other show that I'm blanking on right now.

• 5:43Chris Ryan?

  Ultra City Smiths.

• 5:44Andy Greenwald?

  Then there was another one. Doesn't matter.

• 5:45Chris Ryan?

  Perpetual Grace Limited.

• 5:47Andy Greenwald?

  God, you're so good. You still, how do you still have it?

• 5:49Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, they're buried somewhere in there.

• 5:51Andy Greenwald?

  I'm really impressed. Um, anyway, I believe he was attached to this, and I think that's really interesting to think about. But the reason why I bring it up is because- It just seems off of one episode, again, one episode out of six, I believe, that Ira Parker has the exact right sensibility to play to the strengths of the existing franchise as it is known on television, but play within those established borders and still have some irreverence, still have some wit, still be kind of meta-aware of what he's playing with and the expectations he's subverting, while still honoring what everybody who's ever liked Game of Thrones has come to love about it. Perhaps best exemplified by the opening in which the theme music plays briefly.

• 6:32Chris Ryan?

  The Game of Thrones theme music, yeah.

• 6:34Andy Greenwald?

  Before a quick cut to, I believe, what was your favorite scene in the episode?

• 6:37Chris Ryan?

  Explosive diarrhea from our main character, Dunk. Yeah. So it's been interesting talking with Mallory and Joe about this on Talk the Thrones, just because it sounds like this is an incredibly faithful adaptation, except for a few flourishes here and there, and one of the flourishes was the pooping.

• 6:55Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, that's not in it.

• 6:56Chris Ryan?

  I don't think so. And, you know, there's even like a George Martin quote about him being like...

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  Do the voice, do the voice!

• 7:06Chris Ryan?

  I don't have the voice.

• 7:06Andy Greenwald?

  I was excited.

• 7:07Chris Ryan?

  I don't have the voice.

• 7:08Andy Greenwald?

  You look like you reared back for a second.

• 7:10Chris Ryan?

  He was just like, "That's not in the book," you know, and so that is, obviously...

• 7:14Andy Greenwald?

  Here go these Hollywood types, trying to put their stamp on the material.

• 7:18Chris Ryan?

  The, what, you know, I think that his kind of concept of what an adaptation should be is, "Make it as faithful as possible," and he said that explicitly. I think that what Parker brings to this is like a sense of like wit, like you said, and also feeling, like there, this is the first Thrones show, I think, that you can get into like the main characters and be like, "These seem like pretty good people, so far."

• 7:48Andy Greenwald?

  And I want them to succeed, because their goals are relatively modest. It has been over a decade since we've been introduced to any character, I believe, in the Game of Thrones universe, whose goal wasn't outright takeover of the Iron Throne slash annexing Greenland.

• 8:02Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 8:03Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? Like, that is always, it's always coming off the top rope. That's not how the series began, and in that way, it is a return to the roots. But in another way, it is a completely different way in, because these are just, I don't think that... Correct me if I'm wrong. I am slightly spoiled about the show only because I think that the little kid's name is kind of a giveaway, as well as his mysterious, you know, what were you doing in this town, where are you from?

• 8:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, why'd you shave your head?

• 8:31Andy Greenwald?

  But, well, maybe he had hair loss, like he was just leaning into it.

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not gonna judge the young boy. People age differently then.

• 8:41Chris Ryan?

  It's true. They didn't have such a nutrient-rich diet as us.

• 8:45Andy Greenwald?

  They weren't being served hymns ads on Instagram constantly. They didn't know they had options. I don't believe, and I hope this is the case, I mean, I'm sure there are people who know much better, know more than I do, could tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think that Sir Duncan is actually going to be revealed to be the prince who is promised.

• 9:01Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 9:01Andy Greenwald?

  He's just a nice protagonist for a show.

• 9:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Andy Greenwald?

  And I-

• 9:05Chris Ryan?

  My understanding is that he has a role to play in the history of Westeros, but not in a huge one.

• 9:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think in the spirit of it, like, the way that you have to think about, one, at this point, I think everyone understands, you think about the Westerosi books, that they are history books of a made-up place. So he's not really writing about, I mean, occasionally he will Howard Zinn it a little bit, but largely, I believe George Martin subscribes to the great man of history theory in terms of who he writes about. All that is irrelevant. It is actually, I think, a harder challenge than people might assume from seeing how comfortable and just enjoyable the show is to downscale an entire piece of IP and make it something a little bit more approachable. I think that we could, we should talk a little bit more about the specifics of this show, but I do think it

• 9:55Andy Greenwald?

  presents, it's already clearly so successful, I think it presents an interesting counterpoint to some of the other larger franchises and when they've tried to do this, namely Marvel, DC, and Star Wars.

• 10:06Chris Ryan?

  Well, I think that, you know, you talk about history, one of the things that any franchise show is gonna have to establish or have to figure out going into it is what's our relationship to the main timeline? What's our relationship to the events that have already been depicted that might have brought people into this story in the first place? And, you know, probably the most ingenious- Uh, workaround of that was Andor, where

• 10:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Chris Ryan?

  It's this, uh, 20 hour epic or 22 hour epic about a footnote in Star Wars history, according to the movies.

• 10:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Chris Ryan?

  You know, but it makes it seem like it's, uh, the most important thing that's ever happened. And perhaps it was in that world.

• 10:48Andy Greenwald?

  And for those characters who were fully realized people.

• 10:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I think that, um, what I liked about this was it started with people rather than, um, a thing.

• 10:59Andy Greenwald?

  Events.

• 11:00Chris Ryan?

  Rather than an event, rather than a turning point, rather than, you don't know the secret story about like the guy who gave Jon Snow his first beer, but here it is. It's more about, um, what were like, you know, what was like, give me a slice of life during this time. That's a hundred years before Game of Thrones starts.

• 11:18Andy Greenwald?

  Is that official? I didn't even look.

• 11:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I think it's like something like a hundred years before Game of Thrones starts. And I actually find like, reading about those kings and the transitions of power and the way different families take over. I'm like, in the Wikipedia surface level stuff, I find it like relatively like,

• 11:32Andy Greenwald?

  Really?

• 11:32Chris Ryan?

  You know, intriguing. Yeah.

• 11:33Andy Greenwald?

  I like reading Robert Caro books, but you know, that's cool, dude.

• 11:36Chris Ryan?

  Do you though?

• 11:36Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 11:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I was just like,

• 11:38Andy Greenwald?

  I just really wanted to stake out the cooler lane than you in that.

• 11:41Chris Ryan?

  The cooler lane is reading Robert Caro.

• 11:42Andy Greenwald?

  Age gracefully. You know what I mean?

• 11:44Chris Ryan?

  You read any other books recently?

• 11:46Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you for asking. I did have a nice way to set that up later, so let's save it.

• 11:50Chris Ryan?

  Um, but yeah, like I think that the relationship this show has to the Game of Thrones sort of umbrella or the big tree is to show that there are different ways of telling these stories and, you know, Martin has been pretty explicit over the last couple of weeks in his interviews about the state of his relationship to House of the Dragon.

• 12:12Andy Greenwald?

  Fascinating Hollywood Reporter cover story.

• 12:14Chris Ryan?

  And

• 12:15Andy Greenwald?

  Or Variety. I forget which one it was.

• 12:16Chris Ryan?

  I gotta say, man, like after watching Night of the Seven Kingdoms, and I don't mean this in like a completely dismissive way, cause I do like House of the Dragon at times and some of the performances on it. But maybe George is right. And maybe he knows best, you know, and maybe like he knows the story better than anyone and if shoot what's basically on the page. Now, House of the Dragon is a really hard adaptation because it's like, It's essentially like shooting a couple, like a couple pages of a pamphlet, right? Like it's from what I understand.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  I, again, we're the wrong people to, to, to have strong opinions about this, but, um, well, no, we can have strong opinions, but about like knowledge of the material. That's my understanding of it as well. And so it always, always was going to be kind of a cursed adaptation because it, what it has is like a family tree and a series of events. And some writing, of course, but.

• 13:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, it's like.

• 13:03Andy Greenwald?

  Turning, how do you turn that into a television show?

• 13:04Chris Ryan?

  There are like these two or three historians who are telling the story, but at times are like, we can't be for sure what was said here or whatever, I think. Um, in any case, I mean, like, I'm not gonna, we don't have to weigh in a lot on a writer that we haven't actually read his work, but.

• 13:17Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, we are 10 years into doing that, but yeah.

• 13:20Chris Ryan?

  It just informed, it just, all these interviews and knowing what I know about it informed, like, oh, like, maybe, maybe a more like sort of traditional adaptation of this work is like what works.

• 13:32Andy Greenwald?

  It's, it's incredibly complicated and incredibly difficult, but you can reduce it to something to a fairly simplistic observation, which is, you know, cart before the horse. And in this metaphor, the cart is plot and the horses are characters. And House of the Dragon, I believe, exists primarily to serve a story that seemed cool, that got the world to a certain place, that had a lot of dragons, that I also think we can never overstate the reactive nature of the existence of that show. Because the first time they tried to do a spinoff, which from everything we understand was a little bit more experimental, a little bit more character driven, or at least surprising, by all accounts, it was not successful. And so they were in a rush to get something on the air and they, they went right at what

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  people have always liked to, not that, let me be clear, they went right at what had recently been world dominating about the show, which was Dragon War.

• 14:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Andy Greenwald?

  And let's do that. This was a chance, they had more time to develop it. And again, we don't know the details of what everything that's been talked about, but it's quite clear from the leaks that we have had over the last few years, that the, the gentle fracking of the source material by HBO over the last few years has been relatively considerate, I would say, in the sense that we hear every so often about anywhere from one to six projects being in development.

• 14:49Chris Ryan?

  Martin was like updating about like a bunch of the stuff and it's like, there's like a. You know, Aegon's conquest that could be a Dune trilogy, or it could be another TV show.

• 14:59Andy Greenwald?

  The Sea Snake thing that could be a show or a cartoon. Like, they are, they do seem to be taking some lessons from the over-dilution of Marvel and Star Wars by taking, you know, being a little slower with it, which I think is good. And if this is the result by saying, we don't need two houses of the dragon. We need two different shows at different times of the year, alternating with different vibes. That seems like a healthy, it seems like healthy stewardship.

• 15:27Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 15:27Andy Greenwald?

  You know, the, the other version, we're seeing it, I think there was rumored, there was talk this week, like Fallout is such a success for Amazon that they're gonna do a spinoff or a reality show. The Boys, a show that-

• 15:37Chris Ryan?

  They're gonna do a reality show for Fallout?

• 15:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I think the reality show is us watching the second episode and being like, okay, you were right. Like, who says it first?

• 15:46Andy Greenwald?

  But, or like with The Boys, a show that I still really like, I'm looking forward to the last season. The spinoff, Gen V, I was like, I'm good. This is-

• 15:55Chris Ryan?

  Will you be watching Vaught, though? Like, the one that's, the one, the one that's guy-

• 15:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's being run by a college friend of mine and it stars Ia Cash, so I will be giving it its due diligence. Also, you know, I am interested in the Vaught version of the era that Robert Caro wrote about, as well as a show that I'm pitching as a companion piece, Generation E.

• 16:13Chris Ryan?

  Isn't the Ia Cash character a little bit more Effengers?

• 16:16Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying. Generation E would be the Effengers at the same time. If the Vaught Corporation had invested in the Effinger Motor Company.

• 16:24Chris Ryan?

  If you're new to the watch and you finished a book called The Effengers-

• 16:27Andy Greenwald?

  For a start, it's just Effengers.

• 16:28Chris Ryan?

  Okay, sorry.

• 16:30Andy Greenwald?

  Just saying. But yes, if you're new to the watch today, Martin Luther King Day 2026.

• 16:37Chris Ryan?

  You so don't want to be pottin' today. You keep bringing up Martin Luther King Day.

• 16:43Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, January 19th.

• 16:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:45Andy Greenwald?

  A day of-

• 16:49Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, State of Arizona.

• 16:50Chris Ryan?

  Sean McDermott, the first day of Sean McDermott's new life.

• 16:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I have a lot of Sean McDermott takes. We'll save them for the end of the show. Back to Night of the Seven Kingdoms, Peter Claffey, who I believe is a former rugby player.

• 17:05Chris Ryan?

  And was in Bad Sisters. I was alerted to that.

• 17:07Andy Greenwald?

  Is an incredibly charming and funny protagonist, is a great, great energy on the show, really well cast.

• 17:17Andy Greenwald?

  The young, the young bald egg Dexter Sol Ansel is, seems like a good young actor.

• 17:22Chris Ryan?

  He is a good young actor.

• 17:23Andy Greenwald?

  The direction.

• 17:24Chris Ryan?

  Owen Smith.

• 17:25Andy Greenwald?

  Owen Harris. And Sarah Deena Smith did the back half. She's a director that we like a lot, her work. And then what they did is the thing that I think we often think of as like the cheat code for British series, which is just, you just spam the BAFTA button, you spam the National Theatre button, and you just get actors who are all god tier. And the moment I knew, there were two moments in particular casting wise where I was like, we're in good hands. One is when our guy Tom Von Lawler shows up. That's our dude from Say Nothing, I believe.

• 17:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 17:59Andy Greenwald?

  And you remember him best from his role as one of Thanos's Death Eaters or whatever.

• 18:04Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I didn't, I forgot about that. Yeah.

• 18:06Andy Greenwald?

  You didn't remember that?

• 18:06Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 18:07Andy Greenwald?

  That's how you, that's how you first encountered the work of Carrie Coon as well, when she was Proxima Midnight. Does Tracy not know that, that that's the first time you'd seen his wife act? Well, I guess he's finding out now, assuming he listens to pods on federal holidays. The other actor that I love.

• 18:22Chris Ryan?

  I know you have a lot of deference to the federal authorities.

• 18:26Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, I was told, just comply.

• 18:32Andy Greenwald?

  Daniel Ings, who is the breakout star of the Guy Ritchie series, The Gentleman.

• 18:39Chris Ryan?

  Do you, have you watched that show?

• 18:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we talked about it on the podcast to watch. Yeah. He's great in it, and he is a Baratheon.

• 18:46Chris Ryan?

  Lionel Baratheon, The Laughing Storm.

• 18:48Andy Greenwald?

  And like, look, they- Obviously, I think people who are not new to The Watch understood that the moment I was, I fell in love with the show was when there's a tense moment between Sir Dunk and Sir Lionel.

• 19:03Andy Greenwald?

  And it does not end with a red wedding. It ends with a homoerotic dance party.

• 19:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, okay.

• 19:11Chris Ryan?

  This is, I kind of alluded to this on Thursday's show, but I was curious your thoughts on the depth versus width aspect of this series. You know, to take, to take basically one setting, which is a giant field in this town of Ashford, where they're gonna have this tournament. There's gonna be this, you know, a Knights tournament. And Duncan is signing up for this tournament at great personal risk, not only for like injury, but if he loses, like, he has to give up his horses, whatever money he has, which is very little anyway, but like still.

• 19:43Andy Greenwald?

  I do have a question, like, it's never been a me problem, but I do believe the upkeep and feeding of horses can be quite cost prohibitive.

• 19:53Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I don't know if the, what the inflation rate is in Westeros at that moment, you know?

• 19:57Andy Greenwald?

  These horses look very, very healthy and well-fed.

• 20:00Chris Ryan?

  But the Targaryen royal family might have instituted a build back better situation where like prices are coming down, you know?

• 20:07Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, do you think that they turned the economy around? They made groceries lower?

• 20:13Andy Greenwald?

  Fantastic.

• 20:13Chris Ryan?

  No, but I was just gonna ask you whether you enjoyed exploring the different corners of a single setting, right, rather than like world hopping the way Game of Thrones did?

• 20:23Andy Greenwald?

  I was thrilled by it, but I also didn't, I've only watched one, but it has been alluded to me that this is the setting.

• 20:29Chris Ryan?

  This is the show.

• 20:30Andy Greenwald?

  For this series. I think that's great. I think that the, if this, if the show successfully pulls off what it has suggested that it's going to be able to do through this one episode, it will have done something that a lot of other big IP scaled, like, but modest.

• 20:48Andy Greenwald?

  Content has not been able to do. Like, you brought up Andor, which I think is one of the greatest accomplishments of our lifetimes of television. It is also completely not repeatable because it was both pitched at a different level of intellectual rigor and political advocacy and awareness, and everything is just at a different level than your normal Star Wars show. The price point was not that different.

• 21:11Chris Ryan?

  No. I imagine this was cheaper than Andor.

• 21:14Andy Greenwald?

  That's my point. This is not only cheaper than Andor, this is clearly cheaper than House of the Dragon, but intentionally so. And in a way, that harkens back to what I was saying last week about like, have the plan ahead of time so that your budget and your, so that the budget that you get is aligned with the goals that you have going in creatively. And I think that clearly this was built to be that. And so you set the whole thing in a field, great. I don't know what the model for that would be in the other realms of IP, but I still think it might be possible. And you would, and you feel like Star Wars is the one that keeps stepping on the rake with that, in the sense that they're like, oh, well, we could do a show about a bounty hunter kicking around like Tatooine and maybe going into Mos Eisley for a couple of blue milks now and again.

• 21:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Andy Greenwald?

  And then within five episodes, there's digital Luke Skywalker striding across the screen. Like, they can't help themselves in reaching for the shiniest, most expensive ingredients in the shop.

• 22:06Chris Ryan?

  I'm happy to talk about Star Wars if you want to, because obviously with Kathy Kennedy leaving Lucasfilm, there was a lot of news about that over the last week. There were several updates about some of the new projects and what they're going to be doing. Dave Filoni is taking over the creative side of Lucasfilm.

• 22:20Andy Greenwald?

  He's co-president with a woman who's been the head of business affairs, whose name I will Google to get correct as you continue your thought.

• 22:26Chris Ryan?

  You mentioned the idea of like, Luke Skywalker has to show up in The Mandalorian at a certain point because we need to make this pretty traditional TV show of like, adventure of the week kind of situation into a bigger deal than it already is. That was always really amusing to me because, you know, they struck gold with. With a like a Boba Fett looking guy and a little Yoda, you know, like they could have spun that out for a little while longer before they got to the force.

• 22:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 22:56Chris Ryan?

  But I wonder whether or not some of that was the circumstances of Star Wars, of Filoni's obvious ascendance within the company, um, up to being the creative director and the sort of president of, for whatever his title is of, of, uh, of Lucasfilm. And whether or not that had anything to do with what the storytelling choices were on Mandalorian specifically. Now that's Favreau as well, you know what I mean? And, and he maybe has big ambitions anyway for that story. But I don't know. I mean, like, there's another world where Kathy Kennedy stays in charge of Lucasfilm and has like an ironclad, like, I'm going to be here for 10 years because the

• 23:41Chris Ryan?

  movies have been successful and, and Mandalorian maybe stays in its lane a little bit more. I don't, I'm not sure.

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  I, I am not optimistic about the next few years of Lucasfilm, I would say.

• 23:54Chris Ryan?

  Well, the next few years are kind of spoken for.

• 23:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. But I, well, I think there's a couple of things to be said here. One, like for as, uh, as justified as, as much of the criticism that has come Kathy, a lot of the criticism is justified. I think when you just look at how that sequel trilogy turned out and the complete absence of the multiplexes of anything for a long time.

• 24:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Andy Greenwald?

  Like this is not great stewardship, I would say. Um, you could flip it and you could also say, who else but Kathy Kennedy with her, um, the security she had in that position due to her reputation and relationships in the industry, um, could have gotten it as far as it did in terms of getting that honestly fairly cursed trilogy across the finish line.

• 24:41Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 24:41Andy Greenwald?

  Which was, which was cooked from the beginning when Disney was like, in order to justify this acquisition, we need a sequel up and running within 18 months. Like, we need to do this.

• 24:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Andy Greenwald?

  It was, it was the opposite of what I was just sort of, you know, describing as a sort of like gentle, slow food bespoke cooking of Game of Thrones sequels, which is also probably highly inaccurate. But it was the opposite of that. It was like, we have a deadline and we have a date and we have shareholders to report to. Let's get these things moving.

• 25:03Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 25:04Andy Greenwald?

  Once you start, I mean, when you start playing catch up from the beginning, you're, I don't think you can ever actually get in front of things.

• 25:11Chris Ryan?

  I think it was also just like a decision that they made that even though that they were gonna push the ball forward with a new trilogy, it was gonna essentially be a remake of the first film. You know, with Force Awakens, which is in retrospect, a pretty decent movie. But beat for beat is essentially a new hope.

• 25:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:26Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I think it was always gonna be, you create this expectation among fans that it's going to be fan service. If A Force Awakens had been some brave new step forward and about different kinds of characters in that world, I think maybe we're talking about something else. It also may not have been that successful.

• 25:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's also, the idea, it's really interesting to see what, these are relatively unique jobs and relatively new jobs. Almost in the same way that we talk about showrunners sort of becoming a more public figure and a more important like.

• 25:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, franchise GMs.

• 25:58Andy Greenwald?

  Franchise GMs.

• 25:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Andy Greenwald?

  You know, you.

• 26:00Chris Ryan?

  James Gunn, Kevin Feige.

• 26:02Andy Greenwald?

  Mike Lombardi. Like, there's a list of people, you know, who have the vision above and below.

• 26:06Chris Ryan?

  Now Brandon Bean.

• 26:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:08Chris Ryan?

  Waiting, waiting for that call from Pallone.

• 26:12Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe. When you hire Kathy Kennedy, what you're saying is you want someone with experience producing films in that job. And, you know, she was quite candid on the way out the door in a way that only she can with the stature that she has already accrued before this. What she talked about how Solo was a mistake in her eyes, she owned it in a way. And I thought that was pretty interesting.

• 26:31Chris Ryan?

  She also was like, the Mangold script with Bo Willman.

• 26:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Chris Ryan?

  For like this Knights of the Republic thing, I think, is awesome, but is on hold.

• 26:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, well, it's also probably on hold because James Mangold, I don't know if it's related or unrelated, was like, I'm gonna take my talents to Paramount.

• 26:49Chris Ryan?

  Well, he's directing a Timothy Chalamet movie at Paramount.

• 26:52Andy Greenwald?

  But he also signed an overall deal at Paramount. I know, I know these guys can jump around. No one is untradeable. That's gonna come up in our sports thing.

• 26:58Chris Ryan?

  Lots of people seem to sign overalls and then immediately do something else.

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, people sign, yes, fair, but usually not within the, like, they make something for TV. Year, there's something that predated the deal. It's anything is still possible. We don't know actually what these deals say for him. But I do think it's interesting that he wasn't like, ah, new blood in the building.

• 27:14Chris Ryan?

  Also, I'm sure that they're holding the wheel pretty tight over at Disney. I'm sure they knew for a long time, as it's been reported, that Kathy Kennedy was going to be leaving. And Dave Filoni was going to be taking over. And so that the development process at Disney has probably been slowed down to something of a crawl.

• 27:29Andy Greenwald?

  I can vouch for that.

• 27:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so why not? If you're James Mangold and it's like, life's pretty short, like

• 27:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 27:35Chris Ryan?

  Timothy Chalamet wants to make a motorcycle heist movie.

• 27:38Andy Greenwald?

  I agree.

• 27:38Chris Ryan?

  And I'll do it, yeah.

• 27:39Andy Greenwald?

  And as she says in these interviews, like to do one of these, it's at least three years of your life in your career, if not, if not more. And she admitted something, I don't remember if it had been reported before, but like, she and her team met with everybody and she, a lot of this was rumored. A lot of things have been confirmed by the people like offhand or off the record. But she straight up said like, yeah, we met with Vince Gilligan about doing a Star Wars TV show. We have had multiple meetings with David Fincher about making a movie here. She can have those meetings. I think the difference is when you put Filoni in the top chair, so what are you getting there? It is more the James Gunn model in the sense of this is a guy with a sensibility who has likes and dislikes and will be, for better or for worse, the creative engine.

• 28:20Chris Ryan?

  He has like a very clear idea about what he thinks Star Wars is about. And a very clear idea about like what the timeline is and what the values of the franchise are.

• 28:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and I, I think that those, his opinions are, I don't think this is controversial to say, fairly conservative. I don't mean politically, I just mean like there is a, he's a strict constitutionalist.

• 28:42Chris Ryan?

  He's a Lucas originalist, yeah.

• 28:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, he is. And so I think that there's value in, value that Kathy clearly recognized. And like, here is a guy who has an engine of stuff and stories and perspectives. And that can help, that can help fill our dance card when, when part of the mandate of juggling this company is, you know, kickstart the big movie furnace, but also keep the TV fires going.

• 29:04Chris Ryan?

  I think she did, I have no, I have no idea if it's being perceived this way, but if I were Dave Filoni.

• 29:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, you'd have a different hat.

• 29:11Chris Ryan?

  That was a, that was a tough interview.

• 29:14Andy Greenwald?

  That she did.

• 29:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I, I thought the last part of that interview where she's like, Scott Burns and Steven Soderbergh did a great job with this Kylo Ren script. Donald Glover has turned in a Lando script. The James Mangold script is mold breaking. Taiko YTD's script is hilarious. Here's five movies, or whatever, you know, that are sitting here, ready to rock.

• 29:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 29:35Chris Ryan?

  Ready to go, in terms of their script. And it's like, have fun with Ahsoka.

• 29:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, that is, you're correctly reading.

• 29:43Chris Ryan?

  So if I were Dave Filoni, I'd be like, you could have gone out and been like, here are the things that Dave is developing, here are the things that matter to him, and all the other stuff I'll let him comment on.

• 29:52Andy Greenwald?

  But instead, it's just like, well, we've got this fun, live-action cartoon movie with a, you know, a wrestling bo with that coming out.

• 29:59Chris Ryan?

  And even her being like, I talked to Fincher and Vince Gilligan, is kind of like, if I had my way.

• 30:03Andy Greenwald?

  But also in an interview, she's like, well, Dave got some real reps directing human beings on Ahsoka, season one. She says that.

• 30:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I would say, I would say that I, just, tea leaves, this is really more of a The Town conversation, and I'm sure.

• 30:19Chris Ryan?

  The Town, capital T, capital T.

• 30:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and actually lowercase, but I mean, like, Matt Bell in his podcast, I'm very curious to hear how he covers the story in the weeks and months going forward. I think one of the major takeaways, by the way this news broke, is that Dave Filoni, for all of his abilities and resources and connections to this universe, may not have the, what was it called, the Ministry, what did Tony call the Ministry of Propaganda in Andor, season two? He may not have that.

• 30:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 30:46Andy Greenwald?

  Because this did not cater to.

• 30:48Chris Ryan?

  Might not matter, because he has the fans.

• 30:50Andy Greenwald?

  Does he saw the fans?

• 30:51Chris Ryan?

  I think he has the base.

• 30:53Andy Greenwald?

  You think he's captured the base?

• 30:55Chris Ryan?

  I do. I think that there is a, like, I think there is probably a Star Wars celebration, watching long video breakdowns of, like, historical moments in Star Wars lore, cares about the timeline, cares about the, the, like, movements of, like, what's happening on the Outer Rim at any given moment, and I think, I think he, he speaks for them.

• 31:18Andy Greenwald?

  Could we, could we name them? Are they like, MAGA? Like, make Ahsoka great again? Has that been used? Because I think they are, like, you could fire them up, and you could point them in a direction, and they would do what you want.

• 31:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Andy Greenwald?

  Jokes aside, I think this is a political job, in addition to a creative and producerial job, and I think that this was a rocky rollout. Especially with the timing of her leaving, you know, a couple months before Mandalorian and Grogu comes out, which I think you and I have big floating question marks about.

• 31:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Andy Greenwald?

  It doesn't look awesome. It doesn't necessarily look like something we want.

• 31:54Chris Ryan?

  I think that I, whatever the Book of Boba Fett turning into a Shadow Third Mandalorian season.

• 32:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Chris Ryan?

  Going into, into like, kind of an adjacent Ahsoka story. I was, I, I think that's when I was kind of like, I, this is, this is not really like a, a show I'm really that super interested in anymore.

• 32:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:19Chris Ryan?

  Um, I'll go see the movie.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Chris Ryan?

  But I, you know, I'll be very interested after the year that we just got through of, of the kinds of blockbusters that we saw and with The Odyssey coming, what it feels like to watch like a, a volume movie.

• 32:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And I think that the other story coming out of this week that we should comment on, like the, the, the shadow story behind the announcement of the change at the top of Lucasfilm was the, the, the, the, the subhead story that Dave Filoni hated Andor.

• 32:49Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 32:49Andy Greenwald?

  Which is not on the record.

• 32:51Chris Ryan?

  He has said on the record.

• 32:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 32:53Chris Ryan?

  What a huge admirer he is of it.

• 32:55Andy Greenwald?

  My point is, this is why the Ministry of Propaganda needs to step up here because the fact that that was such a heavily pushed story. And it's that, so, I mean, that is a, that is a rumor that I heard before any of this happened. Like that was.

• 33:08Chris Ryan?

  On Twitter or like?

• 33:09Andy Greenwald?

  No, people talking.

• 33:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, right.

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  That's the story.

• 33:11Chris Ryan?

  A guy comes up to you at Canyon Coffee and says, sir, with tears in his eyes.

• 33:15Andy Greenwald?

  Can't afford Canyon Coffee on a podcast salary? What are you talking about?

• 33:18Chris Ryan?

  Look at all the beverages you've required.

• 33:19Andy Greenwald?

  You got this for me free. So thank you, Daniel Ek or his successor.

• 33:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Andy Greenwald?

  The fact that that is a narrative that continues to exist when in fact, the best version of Star, forget, forget partisanship for once, Chris, for once. Let me do my CBS Evening News wrap up here.

• 33:38Chris Ryan?

  Okay, Tony.

• 33:39Andy Greenwald?

  The best version of this would be him saying, what an honor to steer this great galactic star cruiser that has room for all of these shows and we continue to generate stories in all areas and listen to the best version of every story idea. Um, that would be a successful pivot for the new era of Star Wars that doesn't feel like retreat.

• 33:56Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that is and should be the, the format, the, um, the, the philosophy of any of these franchise GMs? That there is?

• 34:09Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  Tons of different stories and different ways to tell those stories within this great storytelling.

• 34:16Andy Greenwald?

  Honestly?

• 34:17Chris Ryan?

  Like terrain, or

• 34:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:18Chris Ryan?

  Should it be the sort of, what would it be like Phase Three era Feige? Who's like, everything is a piece of something else. There's, it's important that there's a house style, that there's consistency in the writing.

• 34:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:35Chris Ryan?

  That there's a consistency in the tone. When, when, when Marvel kind of adopted, everybody talked like Tony Stark in some ways. You know, everything was kind of glib, even if like Steve was tight and Thor was from, you know, like Asgard. But everybody was like, I have jokes.

• 34:54Andy Greenwald?

  No one got funnier than Thor.

• 34:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 34:56Andy Greenwald?

  Hemsworth is mad, apparently.

• 34:57Chris Ryan?

  But that you could take Taika Waititi and you could take Ryan Coogler and you could take

• 35:02Andy Greenwald?

  James Gunn.

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  The Russos and James Gunn and have it all kind of click together.

• 35:07Andy Greenwald?

  And Chloe Jow, don't leave Eternals out of this.

• 35:09Chris Ryan?

  How could I?

• 35:10Andy Greenwald?

  The funniest of all the movies.

• 35:11Chris Ryan?

  Have you rocked Hamlet? Have you?

• 35:13Andy Greenwald?

  I'm on the record with my feelings about Hamlet.

• 35:15Chris Ryan?

  That you will not be watching it?

• 35:17Andy Greenwald?

  That I, I am the

• 35:19Chris Ryan?

  If Hamlet wins Best Picture, will you watch it the next day?

• 35:22Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I haven't seen The King's Speech. You know what I mean? Since when did that become the standard?

• 35:26Chris Ryan?

  You have seen Green Book a couple of times.

• 35:28Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's my go to. That's my cheer me up movie.

• 35:32Chris Ryan?

  Every MLK day.

• 35:33Andy Greenwald?

  Especially every MLK day, yes.

• 35:35Chris Ryan?

  Do you see what I'm saying? Or should it be, um, because for the, for, I don't know that you would say Game of Thrones has a GM. It has a very vocal, creative, like, like originator, like in Martin. And he can have friendly or adversarial relationships with Benny Affenweiss.

• 35:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Chris Ryan?

  Or Ryan Condal or Ira Parker. And then it's the HBO machine that kind of makes everything. What it is.

• 36:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think there's no one right answer because a lot of, for brief periods, different versions of each of these models has worked. I think the one thing to consider when we talk about these, and we have these conversations constantly, Star Wars and Game of Thrones exist on the history as a timeline model, where there are no alternate universes. These are all nodes on a timeline that happened and interacted with each other, and you can't really, as much as you may want to, you cannot retcon things.

• 36:31Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 36:32Andy Greenwald?

  Marvel and DC exist in the multiverse of madness, where anything can happen at any time, and you can just reboot. And Star Trek, for what it's worth, not that we even engaged with a new Star Trek show starring Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter, which premiered last week, so, but how far we done fell. That's also on a, like a, we can just reboot and alternate versions of these people.

• 36:52Chris Ryan?

  The funny thing is, is that if Paul Giamatti and Holly Hunter were in a Taylor Sheridan show, I would be like, I'm here, I'm reporting for duty.

• 37:00Andy Greenwald?

  Finally. Come home, Holly, come home, Paul. So, I think that, I think that either model can work. I think the big test for the one creative voice model, in terms of DC, will be Lanterns, which very clearly was designed to be something slightly different.

• 37:22Chris Ryan?

  And then Gunn.

• 37:23Andy Greenwald?

  And then Gunn took over, and we'll see. I'm not saying he meddled, because I don't think that's the case at all. I don't even think that, I don't think that's a plausible timeline that he meddled. But can you be both?

• 37:34Chris Ryan?

  I think also the big test of Gunn's situation is going to be the many Batman.

• 37:39Andy Greenwald?

  It's doing the fifty.

• 37:40Chris Ryan?

  Many, many, many, many Batman.

• 37:42Andy Greenwald?

  Do the voice. Do the voice.

• 37:45Chris Ryan?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 37:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 37:46Chris Ryan?

  That'll be the part where it's just like, it'll be a test of the audience as well. I mean, I don't think the Matt Reeves Batman and the Bold and the Brave, is that what it is?

• 37:57Andy Greenwald?

  The Bold and the Beautiful is the soap opera, The Brave and the Bold.

• 37:59Chris Ryan?

  The Brave and the Bold is the Gunn-developed Batman story.

• 38:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, which they still haven't pulled the trigger on.

• 38:05Chris Ryan?

  Right. I think that that would be a big test of whether people enjoy, like, a sort of in their face multiverse, not even a Multiverse, because that is the thing. I would say that Marvel kind of cheat coded their way into like, this is how we do this is by having.

• 38:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 38:21Chris Ryan?

  We can, we can instill, roll Patrick Stewart on out there if we want to, but I would say that the over reliance on multiversal storytelling by Marvel is part of the reason.

• 38:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 38:31Chris Ryan?

  Why I think people got a little bit fatigued with it.

• 38:34Andy Greenwald?

  Extremely.

• 38:35Chris Ryan?

  Nothing matters if you can just reset it.

• 38:37Andy Greenwald?

  Extremely fatigued with it. And now they have, they have been forced to go all in on what will undoubtedly be the most expensive two film series ever made. To basically make as much money as possible and wring out the, wring out the towel on this one.

• 38:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Andy Greenwald?

  Set up a hard reboot that people might be ready and interested in, in, in watching.

• 38:57Andy Greenwald?

  I think the thing that, that's, that's relevant about Star Wars is what is the, there's no there there anymore. Like, I understood the obsession with the Skywalker story because that felt like the North Pole of anyone's interest in this. And it was, if it was just there to play with, like if they were, if, if CGI Mark Hamill was on the table for any of these stories in the historical timeline. Why not hit it to get that little dopamine in the series to make it feel important? Then when they went away from it tonally and developmentally, it was hard to understand the connection because, you know, something like the Acolyte, which I think was, was put together with the best of intentions and a lot of creativity and good spirit felt neither here nor there.

• 39:37Andy Greenwald?

  Because it felt tethered to a, a version of Jediism that is very Feloni-esque in terms of its seriousness and everything, but it, so it didn't have any. It tried to bring a different point of view to the same energy.

• 39:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  Which I think is a challenge. Andor was completely different and worthwhile, but what is the, what is the main timeline? What is the Avengers movie of the Star Wars thing? And I guess it is the Simon Kinberg trilogy that he has been working on. Which I would imagine. Is episode 10, 11 and 12.

• 40:09Chris Ryan?

  Well, and Starfighter is set after the events of the most recent trilogy.

• 40:15Andy Greenwald?

  So that's where they're going to be doing their developmental work. But it is hard when especially they've essentially since Disney took over, they have maximized a lot of it, but they've also frittered away another decade, which could have been spent sowing the seeds of something new.

• 40:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Andy Greenwald?

  I know that you don't pay a lot of attention to theme park or comic book news because you're too busy reading the histories of Westeros.

• 40:38Chris Ryan?

  Andy, I have this saved. The StarWars.com announcement about Galaxy's Edge.

• 40:44Andy Greenwald?

  Do you want to talk about this?

• 40:45Chris Ryan?

  So.

• 40:46Andy Greenwald?

  This is so wild.

• 40:46Chris Ryan?

  This is, if people aren't familiar, Jason Gallagher and I actually did a long podcast about this while you were making Briar Patch, I think, when Galaxy's Edge first came out.

• 40:56Andy Greenwald?

  Did you go?

• 40:57Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 40:58Andy Greenwald?

  Excuse me.

• 41:00Chris Ryan?

  Why would I go to Galaxy's Edge?

• 41:01Andy Greenwald?

  I just thought you were ready to share that you were a Disney adult, but I guess not.

• 41:04Chris Ryan?

  No, and it is a park in Disney World where there is some narrative. You're on like a planet called Batu.

• 41:12Andy Greenwald?

  Don't look at me like I know.

• 41:14Chris Ryan?

  Now.

• 41:15Andy Greenwald?

  Ask Kaya, it's her generation's stuff.

• 41:16Chris Ryan?

  There was also like a hotel there that was like $1,500 a night or something. There was like some sort of like you're on a starship in this hotel. I don't know if that still is there or if they had to shutter that because of this economy, but they have now had to go back to the drawing board. Not the drawing board, but they've had to adjust the timeline of Batu so that they can have Darth Vader and Princess Leia and Han Solo walking around.

• 41:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 41:40Chris Ryan?

  Because people are like, come on, dog.

• 41:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, because like, but Rey gets to say, by the way.

• 41:48Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 41:48Andy Greenwald?

  But all the other new, because I think it is like an immersive, you're in a, you know, someone could tap you on the shoulder and be like, do you want to make a, do the Kessel Run or whatever? And you could be like, let me finish my blue milk first. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty your vibe. But let's just make it clear. But yes, I guess that they wanted to maybe, I don't know if attendance was dwindling or interest engagement, so now Darth Vader walks through it. But the funniest part to me is they are so. Yoked to the dorkiest parts of our culture that they had to commission a Marvel Comics mini-series explaining why Luke Skywalker and company are now in this invented world.

• 42:27Chris Ryan?

  In Batu, yeah.

• 42:27Andy Greenwald?

  Because you're gonna show up with a fucking $30 funnel cake and two screaming eight-year-olds, and you're gonna be like, "I don't think Greedo survived to be around now." I think, excuse me, excuse me.

• 42:41Chris Ryan?

  Should we do a field trip to Galaxy's Edge? Would you come with us? Yeah, sure.

• 42:46Andy Greenwald?

  What holiday would you like me to do that on?

• 42:49Chris Ryan?

  Russia shot.

• 42:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 42:53Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you.

• 42:53Chris Ryan?

  As Lottie Evenger would have wanted.

• 42:55Andy Greenwald?

  As Lottie Evenger would have wanted.

• 42:57Chris Ryan?

  Oh, God.

• 42:58Andy Greenwald?

  It's a beautiful thing, yeah, it's... I just feel like when... I'll make it personal. When I was five or six years old and I went to Walt Disney World in Florida and Captain Hook was walking around near Chippendale, I wasn't like, "Wait a fucking second."

• 43:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Andy Greenwald?

  Explain this.

• 43:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:17Andy Greenwald?

  Walt, you know? I got it. Maybe we're a little too far down the rabbit hole.

• 43:23Chris Ryan?

  All of this is to say, just to take it briefly back to Thrones, is that I actually weirdly do think Thrones supports this.

• 43:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 43:29Chris Ryan?

  Because I think that while there are people who are probably like Thrones originalists and really are like, "We need to get back to the basics here, and this is about this, this, and this," there seems to be a little bit more of a healthy adversarial relationship between the fans and the author, especially because the author has not finished these books. And I think that this show shows a great way forward for the franchise itself. At the end of season two of House of the Dragon, I was like, "Until they figure out like what happens the day after Game of Thrones ends, I don't know that this is gonna work to keep doing things that people can easily spoil for themselves, to keep doing things that

• 44:14Chris Ryan?

  ultimately are gonna be like living in the shadow of this one of the great series of, I mean, aside from the last bit of it, like one of the great series we've ever had." And now I'm like, oh, I guess, I guess that you could do all sorts of things with this, with this story.

• 44:31Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think the one aspect of fandom, and I mean this respectfully, that is challenging for Hollywood to reckon with or feed is a deep desire that fans of various worlds or franchises have to just kind of be in that world. That's why you have the Galaxy's Edge thing, sort of the immersive fan experience. That's why it's not just that there's a robust fan fiction community, it's that a lot of bestselling hardcover books emerge from fan fiction.

• 45:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:04Andy Greenwald?

  And it's something that is, you know, I, I understand why it's challenging because you can't, as much as I would like, you know, a genial kind of free-form hangout show about almost anything, TV demands plot, TV demand, I mean, it's a different, it's a different medium. But I think that the Game of Thrones world, as awful and violent as it is, it's the same thing, like these, there are these romanticy series that I haven't read, but like the Fourth Wing series.

• 45:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:33Andy Greenwald?

  And I don't think it's just, I'm gonna go on a limb, it's not just the dragon fighting that people like. These are enormous books with an entire societies and, and romance and things built into them.

• 45:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:43Andy Greenwald?

  That's as much fandom as the destruction of Sokovia, you know what I mean? And I think that you've gotta get that.

• 45:50Chris Ryan?

  That's my federal holiday. That's what we're observing.

• 45:53Andy Greenwald?

  You haven't forgotten. You haven't forgotten.

• 45:56Chris Ryan?

  We're actually taking Thursday off because that's the anniversary of Sokovia.

• 46:00Andy Greenwald?

  The Sokovia Accords are more important to you than I believe.

• 46:02Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that we would have been hitting Sokovia with tariffs by now?

• 46:05Andy Greenwald?

  I think our, the Sokovia Accords have proven to be more.

• 46:08Chris Ryan?

  Had Ultron not dropped it on the ground.

• 46:10Andy Greenwald?

  Sokovia Accords have proven to be more, had proven to be stronger than the NATO alliance.

• 46:17Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's, that's canon now.

• 46:21Chris Ryan?

  Anything else you want to say about Night of the Seven Kingdoms?

• 46:24Andy Greenwald?

  We've said so much not about Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I really enjoyed it. And I think the ultimate thing that we didn't even, we only mentioned in passing is the average episode length is like 35 minutes.

• 46:34Chris Ryan?

  And Mark, are you like?

• 46:36Andy Greenwald?

  God, I love it. I love it. I'm thrilled by that.

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• 48:39Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about industry.

• 48:40Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, you're saving land, man. Okay.

• 48:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we can save land, man. Industry, uh, season four, episode two, The Commander and the Gray Lady, uh, which is essentially Mickey Down and Conrad Kay doing a Christmas carol. This show is serious, for what it's worth. But big, big suckers for Christmas. There's been a few Christmas episodes.

• 49:01Andy Greenwald?

  Chris, you've been with me in the UK these last two Novembers. There is nothing bigger in England than Christmas.

• 49:08Chris Ryan?

  Than Crimbo.

• 49:10Andy Greenwald?

  They fucking love it. They're obsessed.

• 49:12Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, they are not beating The Goodfellas allegations with the soundtrack of this one and the, you know, like, it's just the overall vibe. I, I saw some people on, on, online talking about, you know, we're gonna see, we're seeing like goat level television right now. And I don't know whether it's, it's a testament to the fact that I just expect this from the show now. Like, I expect, uh, television at this level. But I watched this episode twice, actually. Like, I watched it once just straight through and I was like...

• 49:45Andy Greenwald?

  How much time did you take between the viewings?

• 49:48Chris Ryan?

  I just immediately ran it back. No, I took, I took the second half of the Bears game between the viewings.

• 49:54Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 49:54Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, because I just wanted to see how it felt knowing where it was gonna end.

• 50:00Andy Greenwald?

  Seeing, knowing the scaffolding and the shape. Yeah, sure.

• 50:03Chris Ryan?

  And it's just an extraordinary piece of work, man. Like, you know, we just spent a long time talking about Thrones. If, if I had told you that this is where, like, Kit Harington was gonna be, I mean, would you ever have believed me?

• 50:14Andy Greenwald?

  Now, one thing we didn't mention in the George R.R. Martin interview, he alludes to the idea that the Jon Snow sequel series didn't go forward because Kit Harington basically wanted to do what he did last night in Industry.

• 50:27Chris Ryan?

  Because I'm, they made me fat!

• 50:31Chris Ryan?

  Yep. So in this episode, Henry Muck, we find him, you know, we saw him at the end of the first episode, crushing up pills and playing a harpsichord.

• 50:40Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:41Chris Ryan?

  And that shot takes place pretty much at the end of the first act of the second episode.

• 50:47Andy Greenwald?

  The timing of these episodes is intricate.

• 50:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:49Andy Greenwald?

  There's moments that we, that are, that sync up with 401.

• 50:55Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 50:55Andy Greenwald?

  And then there's a deeper story, then there's moments that are completely different events. That, that, that's why one might want to do a second view.

• 51:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And I, I was curious about Harper and Whitney and that stuff and like.

• 51:08Andy Greenwald?

  This would be their second night.

• 51:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes. So the, and in any case, in this episode, Henry Muck is losing his battle of depression at precisely the moment that his father lost his in his life, which is the 40th birthday. And on the night of Henry's 40th birthday, he's visited by a series of characters, some of which are real, like Whitney Halberstrom and his uncle Alexander and an old priest and a mysterious guest at this huge lavish, lavish Dangerous Liaison's Peter Greenway, uh, party that he's having for his 40th birthday, a guy named The Commander shows up right when he is really going off the deep end.

• 51:48Andy Greenwald?

  And he's, I believe he's dropped acid?

• 51:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think he's dropped acid and he comes into this banquet where all of his friends and his wife and colleagues are there and members of the labor government.

• 51:59Andy Greenwald?

  Defeated him in a by-election.

• 52:00Chris Ryan?

  And he's just pissed out of his mind. And this guy shows up and takes him out on a night on the small town that he basically owns. And we just get, you know, a, a dark, dark night of the soul with Henry Muck for the most part. And then the sort of second half of this episode is Yasmin's relationship to what's happening to Henry, what she wants to do with her life, what she wants to do with her marriage and what she sees for her marriage. Um, before we get into the details of it and sort of some of the, the different moments, why don't you tell me what you thought of this episode?

• 52:34Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I want to just, before I forget, because I might forget otherwise, what you were saying about like people showering this episode. With Hosanna's for specifically for something I'm gonna shower it with Hosanna's for the audacity and maximalism of it, but also specifically some of the dialogue. I think the structure bears repeated investigation and also praise because to with a relative economy. I mean, it's a 60 minute episode, but a relative economy of screen time to send Yasmin on a journey that earns its counterweight place with the Henry journey so that they can end in a together is really hard to do. That is like next level scripting and plotting and structure,

• 53:17Andy Greenwald?

  particularly when you add in the challenges of the slightly skewed overlapping timeline and the fact that they are essentially rebooting the show, as we mentioned last week, with new characters and new stakes. So that alone is really remarkable. The thing that I wanted to say about the episode is this is a, maybe it's a crutch, but I do find that it, I do find that it bears repeating from time to time, which is the observation that storylines or characters, arcs in TV shows often really do echo the experience or the publicized, known, public facing experience of the people making the show. And the reference, the example you, one always uses, or I always use is like, oh, well, that's what the money is for. That was the David Chase, Matthew Weiner relationship.

• 53:58Andy Greenwald?

  And he's talked about that. Last week, there was a moment when I started going down that old, oh, I'm still writing a column for Grantland brain and seeing Harper being perhaps over her skis in terms of power and authority behind a big fancy desk in a big Baroque building, still being looked down upon by old white people.

• 54:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Andy Greenwald?

  I'm like, oh, Mickey and Conrad are asserting their ownership of the show to a degree that is, they have not done before, even though they have been the showrunners and obviously the co-creators, but now that they are completely the authorial voice on, you know, on the script and behind the camera, is there something going on there? And then I realized that what Harper is doing though constantly is shorting things and underestimating things and profiting from that. And that is the opposite of what these guys do. They are fucking whales in Macau when it comes to the gambles they are willing to take with their prize, which is having a show on HBO.

• 54:52Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 54:53Andy Greenwald?

  I think this episode was so. Maximalist, so, so extra, so unhinged, that it was breathtaking to watch. And there were moments when, and I sent you the Philippe Petit skyscraper walk when I was watching the episode before you did, because there were moments when I was like, I think they're tipping. I think they are tipping too far on the wrong side. And then, like, true acrobats, they right themselves.

• 55:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 55:20Andy Greenwald?

  The, the difference between the ice cold show that industry was at the beginning, and that it often is with the contoured lines of the city, or the version of the city that they recreate in Cardiff, with the hot-blooded Tom Jones diners, it wasn't a diner scene, Tom Jones doesn't live here anymore. The Tom Jones dinner scene Baroque aesthetic of the season finale of season three that was recreated here, is, that is a wild spin. And there were also moments when I was like, I think they're more interested in this version of the show that is the Henry version of the show. And when Henry returns to the city, as I imagine he inevitably will now, I wonder if they will be able to marry the hot and cold sides of the show, like a McD L T.

• 56:05Chris Ryan?

  It's the second episode of this season, and I, obviously, we had one episode that was largely about Max Mahella and Cal Penn's characters. Harper's part of it, obviously, but, you know, we get little glimpses into what they're doing. But I felt like that first episode was about Tender, and the second episode is about Henry. So now we're about to start the third episode of this season, and the players have not gotten to the same gym yet.

• 56:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, but they're going to, in the third episode, when we're about to talk about a, the 10th episode of the second season of a show on Paramount Plus, that is just starting the show, as it sets up the third season. So, I think they're doing things fairly economically.

• 56:53Chris Ryan?

  You mentioned the season three finale, which in some ways was a series finale for a certain version of the show. And I love how

• 57:06Chris Ryan?

  There may not be narrative connected to you, although if you pay attention, there is. But in terms of like, style, aesthetic, visual, sort of bravery. Episodes will then give permission to future episodes. So, shooting what they shot at Henry's place in the in the previous, in season two, in season three, kind of gives them a lay of the land to do

• 57:33Andy Greenwald?

  How to shoot and light those rooms.

• 57:34Chris Ryan?

  So much more stuff in this. And they're using anamorphic lenses, they're, you know, obviously indulging in the Gothic aspects of the surroundings, so much so that they are bringing in ghosts and bringing in flashbacks.

• 57:49Andy Greenwald?

  Which are not things we have really seen in the language of the show before.

• 57:53Chris Ryan?

  No. And I think I almost, I'm itching to get to the last scene, the very last scene, you know, there is this also playing around with the, and then also lampooning the mythology of the great Englishman. And like, the almost like Arthurian, kind of like you and the land are one, and having Alexander, Henry's uncle, in the window saying like,

• 58:20Andy Greenwald?

  Spring has returned?

• 58:22Chris Ryan?

  Spring has returned, like, the idea that like, this family is now kind of like, come out of the darkness and the wilderness of this guy's depression. But, you know, that final scene, and there's, you know, look, like, it's easy to just be like, it's like The Graduate, you know, there's some ambiguity to like, how they feel. But, I thought those two actors were so remarkable in that drive, you know, not the humping against the car, although they did a great job doing that.

• 58:51Andy Greenwald?

  I thought they were great.

• 58:52Chris Ryan?

  But his kind of like, "I'm laughing, I'm crying, I'm laughing, I'm crying," or is it just the wind blowing in my face? And Marisa Bell's reaction to Henry being like, "We should try for a child," and his blood on her lips is like, "Come on, what are we doing here?"

• 59:14Andy Greenwald?

  No, they touched God on that.

• 59:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I know that that's what they're trying to do with this show.

• 59:18Andy Greenwald?

  But, but you don't get that moment without...

• 59:23Andy Greenwald?

  A lot of hard work. One of the, you know, talking about the structure, like the scene, everything that happens with Yasmin and her aunt played by Claire Forlani.

• 59:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:34Andy Greenwald?

  You know, where the aunt's parting invective is, "Your father told me he was going to make sure that the pregnancy was aborted if it would have been a boy, and here you are." And a lot about what it means to be a woman, what it means to be a woman to support, love, submit to, control whatever men in this world. And then for him to say, "I'm better now, I'm gonna give you something else to take care of."

• 59:56Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 59:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's all there. But what's also there is the casting, and the, you know, maybe this is an economic term that I could start to understand, is the opportunity or the opportunity cost. Because maybe all actors, all ambitious or hungry actors who have been locked in chainmail or franchise armor for years, need to go to Ibiza with Mickey and Conrad, maybe literally, or just metaphorically.

• 1:00:21Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:00:22Andy Greenwald?

  Kit Harrington is so, he's dying of thirst for this role. Like, he is embodying it with his entire self.

• 1:00:32Chris Ryan?

  Well, it's so funny.

• 1:00:33Andy Greenwald?

  The opening scene where he is embarrassed and smiling is one of the great hold-camera acting performances of recent television.

• 1:00:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:41Andy Greenwald?

  And he brings that level of commitment and intensity to every scene, which is required considering the cocktail of drugs and suicidal ideation that he is existing under.

• 1:00:53Chris Ryan?

  And the fact that he was like, "John Snow drove me to ruin," like, playing that part, "but playing Henry Muck is like my dream role."

• 1:01:03Andy Greenwald?

  But it allows him to say, to say, "I don't think I have a second act."

• 1:01:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Andy Greenwald?

  You know, and Whitney says, "Maybe there aren't second acts in American lives." But the idea of being chained to something, something successful, in this case, you're born a lord, you are born rich, people are touring your home, is if you contributed something to this world, but you are as disused and on display as a harpsichord. It's a remarkable act, and I'm very curious how this plays in the UK too, because I think we are just enough removed from...

• 1:01:38Andy Greenwald?

  Being immersed in that kind of like landed gentry society to have just, oh, I'm empathetic about the new character on my television show.

• 1:01:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:48Andy Greenwald?

  Whereas if the American version of industry, which could never exist, but you know, a new character that we are building empathy equity with, the first thing we see is that he's standing for election, you know, wearing a MAGA hat, like, I feel like that would maybe

• 1:02:02Chris Ryan?

  turn off.

• 1:02:03Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I understand MAGA is a reform party, I get it. And personally, I vote bin face every time.

• 1:02:09Chris Ryan?

  Well, I just think that they're doing their best to save Ahsoka from.

• 1:02:12Andy Greenwald?

  That's right. That's right. I find it interesting, and it's a, again, that's another, it's a wild risk to be like, we are, because there's a version of entertainment about this level of society, or this world, whether it was the world of Wall Street, you know, or the street, or the upper, upper class of England that is satirical, that is taking the piss, that is the gentleman, that is, it's all a joke and we're all the victims of the joke. One of the reasons why industry stays ahead of the curve, I think, is because

• 1:02:55Andy Greenwald?

  for all of the bluster and all of the massive amounts of cocaine, I think Mickey and Conrad are softies in terms of their interest in the emotional lives of these people. And it's quite a gamble, making us care, to the degree that they do, about people who live like this.

• 1:03:10Chris Ryan?

  Yes. What do you think about, you mentioned the Whitney line about maybe not, second acts, and he's like, maybe not in American life. The characters on this show have sort of achieved a almost total self-awareness at this point, in the sense of how they articulate their interiority, even their journeys, even their, now, some of it may be theater, and some of it may be projection, and some of it may be like, you know, the side of me that I want people to see. And I think that the Harper character specifically does a lot of like.

• 1:03:44Chris Ryan?

  Klopsin in heavy boots to like, let everybody know, like, I'm a badass, I'm that motherfucker. And then is like, has like vulnerabilities and has her own pain and stuff like that. But it is interesting watching, you know, Henry in the hunt scene with his uncle. And then Henry and Whitney's conversation. Yasmin and Henry's huge fight in their

• 1:04:07Andy Greenwald?

  Amazing.

• 1:04:08Chris Ryan?

  In their bedroom. But it's a specific kind of writing where it's like, I'm not waiting two seasons, or three episodes, or six episodes for someone to arrive at this revelation about themselves and be able to articulate it. But it is also like, a different kind of writing. Like, there is a, would you, would you describe it as stagey?

• 1:04:29Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great question. I was gonna say that where they pitch it is from a line in that scene. It's the nexus of arousal and disgust is what interests them most. The stagey thing is interesting to consider just because of the fact that these guys

• 1:04:42Chris Ryan?

  As like a

• 1:04:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, well, these guys are staging it too. That's the other thing.

• 1:04:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Andy Greenwald?

  It is, um, you know, there was a, it was a hallmark of succession. The characters would tear at each other with knives. You know, just say, past the sausages scene, a lot of sausages on the breakfast table, by the way. And I did see they posted some BTS of like, adding more sausages to the plate. So at least they're having fun with it.

• 1:05:06Chris Ryan?

  I always, I loved the fact that there was just like way more food than any of those people were gonna eat.

• 1:05:10Andy Greenwald?

  And no one touched it.

• 1:05:11Chris Ryan?

  So much excess, yeah.

• 1:05:14Andy Greenwald?

  The thing, the reason I bring up succession is because the tenor of the way that they talked was really beautifully and intentionally paired with the way Mark Mylan moved the camera. It was all handheld, sort of circling. And it was almost like watching a, like a, you know, a nature video of someone like in Serengeti, watching these, these great animals attack each other. This is somewhere perched in between. And I think they're getting their own confidence as to how they want the camera to move. And sometimes you notice it more. And so then when the camera is like, in the great hall, perched way back, and they're not in the center of the frame. I am made aware of the framing in a different way, which maybe feels like they're on display.

• 1:05:47Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:05:49Andy Greenwald?

  All of it works for me because the language of the show has always been from the very beginning that in, on the trading floor, you can say anything because it's ultimately binary. You're either making the trade or you're not. And anything between you and the trade needs to be removed expeditiously, if not savagely. I think that the, the language, particularly in this episode, felt sharp to me. And I think that, what I mean is like in, in a, in a big scene where characters are really saying what they feel about each other or what they see in each other, there can be a tendency to just keep writing it until it starts to become flabby. And everything is so pointed that it, it, it didn't take me out of it.

• 1:06:31Andy Greenwald?

  I think that there are some observations and we can get into some of the specifics if you want, but like the scene, the two scenes that, that, that, the scene with Yasmin and her aunt, you know, where they talk about how these men love murdering women no matter what is, was a remarkable scene of dialogue. And I'm very curious, when we talked to Mickey and Conrad at the end of the season, the genesis of that, because you know, famously, they don't really have a writer's room. And their buddy, another great writer, Joe Charlton, is, helps with it. And I'm sure they do have other consultants involved from time to time. But like that, that felt, in a good way, like other characters bringing a point of view, you know, or other people bringing a point of view to the show.

• 1:07:13Chris Ryan?

  Well, I love that whole storyline of this episode because it's Yasmin realizing that she doesn't have a family anymore at all. You know, it's like this, she leaps up at the arrival of her aunt.

• 1:07:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Chris Ryan?

  Because she's surrounded by all these people dressed up as viscounts and whatever. And she finally sees another Hanani, you know, across the room and goes running over to her. And you know, it starts with this kind of like immediate kind of connection and this immediate...

• 1:07:42Andy Greenwald?

  You understand me, I'm listening to your advice.

• 1:07:44Chris Ryan?

  And then it starts to get darker and darker. And then she spots her with Otto and then, you know, like, and then when she gets to the end of the night, she finds out like, I'm actually alone in this world. And so that also informs, I think... Think not only what she does with Haley, but also like what happens, why she's hanging on to this Henry thing so hard. And she's giving him one last chance, but that like when you are like kind of a lost at sea without anybody else sharing your name, you're going to behave differently than if you're like, I come from a huge family. And then that's why Henry behaves the way he behaves, you know?

• 1:08:20Andy Greenwald?

  I also think that what, one of the best aspects of the way Mickey and Conrad make television is they do, I don't know if it's generational or if it's experiential or just being aware of what they like in entertainment and putting it onto the screen. But Henry's journey towards, and this is a direct quote, you know, "We would rather die afraid than be present for a single second of our lives." Basically, that, that, that is beautifully compelling, devastating, hard-earned therapy speak.

• 1:08:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:08:51Andy Greenwald?

  That in, I don't even say lesser shows, other shows, that's a season, that's a series.

• 1:08:58Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:08:59Andy Greenwald?

  They dispatch it in a incredibly dramatic, sometimes melodramatic, long night of the soul. That's a choice, and I think one that is, again, the degree of difficulty is extreme.

• 1:09:13Andy Greenwald?

  But at the end of it, I also wanted to take my sports car out on the road. Like I didn't, they didn't crash the car. Even though they came close to it. What did you feel, at what point did you realize we were in kind of a Fight Club Ghost situation?

• 1:09:25Chris Ryan?

  At the bar. I mean, because I initially was like, you know, obviously, nobody seems to acknowledge that the commander is there in the dinner scene. So there was something a bit off about that first, uh, first moment he's introduced.

• 1:09:38Andy Greenwald?

  Although when you're watching it, you're like, well, I, again, from, from, from the colonies, I'm like, the level of grin and bear it through performed humiliation has been, that, that, that's been established.

• 1:09:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:09:50Andy Greenwald?

  That like they will just keep gritting their teeth and drinking through almost anything.

• 1:09:54Chris Ryan?

  Yes. But I, so I was like, oh, this is interesting. Maybe this is a schoolmate, you know, who's come back, or maybe this is his, his like, his fucking wild friend who always like brings him into the, to the mess.

• 1:10:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Chris Ryan?

  But by the time they get to the pub and sit down.

• 1:10:15Chris Ryan?

  And I actually first had that thought about the priest, which I'm not entirely sure if he was there either. You know what I mean?

• 1:10:21Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think the other thing that I thought was subtle and interesting was that the maid.

• 1:10:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, Molly, yeah.

• 1:10:27Andy Greenwald?

  Molly is intentionally cast and dressed as working class Yasmin.

• 1:10:33Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:10:33Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, she is a double for her.

• 1:10:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:10:35Andy Greenwald?

  And I think that was very intentional as well.

• 1:10:37Chris Ryan?

  When the bar happens and when the fight happens, I was like, this guy's not there.

• 1:10:41Andy Greenwald?

  I did have a moment of too much TV drift because we had just watched another show that we're about to talk about in which a character punches someone perhaps 12 to 15 too many times. With slightly different outcome.

• 1:10:55Chris Ryan?

  The Midland police may not have let.

• 1:10:57Andy Greenwald?

  They would not have looked kindly on this. They wouldn't have let it go. But again, it's a different system.

• 1:11:03Andy Greenwald?

  You mentioned the Harper thing. I liked the use of Harper in this episode a lot because I like giving my holiday a chance to play different notes. And she seemed, because the weight of the world and the weight of the episode is not on her shoulders. She was very smiley.

• 1:11:24Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:11:24Andy Greenwald?

  Seeming like legitimately flirty and able to like be more of a human than, I don't mean, this is not a criticism of the performance. I mean that the character was able to let her guard down slightly.

• 1:11:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:11:35Andy Greenwald?

  In a way that was charming and appealing and.

• 1:11:37Chris Ryan?

  Well, that was that scene between her and Yasmin. So like, it's great. It's like being in like a very mini Harold Pinter play where it's like, all of a sudden, it's just like, why have you invited me? Why are you here? Because I have to be. Why are you here? I'm lonely. Why are you lonely?

• 1:11:50Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not, I'm two episodes in, I'm not fully convinced about Max Mingala. I think the, I guess I'm curious what role Whitney plays going forward.

• 1:12:01Chris Ryan?

  We just have to, I think you have like, we'll get to the end of the season and be like, ah.

• 1:12:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, possibly. There's a version of it where he is just fully the devil.

• 1:12:14Andy Greenwald?

  You know, and I think that the performance and the lighting is leaning into that in the early going, in which case I guess I'm just curious where it's going.

• 1:12:24Chris Ryan?

  I think I feel that way about the season itself, but I'm not worried. I'm just like, what's this about?

• 1:12:30Andy Greenwald?

  I think my comparison point, and again, this feels like a completely different television show as I'm about to bring it up, but I was going to bring up J. Do Plus.

• 1:12:39Andy Greenwald?

  You know, the last significant time that an American character came in and, you know, I have no idea how they wrote the character. I have no idea what their casting process was like, like who they were picturing when they wrote the character versus what they ended up with. But he brought something that was specifically, um, not, it's not off putting, it was off kilter. So that I wasn't sure how to feel about him because you're used to seeing a Duplass brother as like a, just a puffy chair in human form, you know, but he was obviously a little bit more than that. And I liked that uncertainty. I would like more uncertainty from this character in the early going, especially if Harper's flash and smiles like that. But that's just a purely surface level note.

• 1:13:22Chris Ryan?

  We've alluded to Landman a couple of times. Our great, our great dig, our great drilling is over.

• 1:13:29Andy Greenwald?

  No, apparently we have seasons more of reserves.

• 1:13:31Chris Ryan?

  Well, yes. I mean, there was, there's definitely going to be a third season. It sounds like there could be at least five or six. I don't know how that works against Taylor Sheridan's universal peacock responsibilities. We'll see. Um, I, I thought this show ended, look, I mean, like we and I have a lot of fun at this show's expense, but just to be sober about it for a second, I thought this show ended its second season in a really interesting place and that that place should have happened in like the second or third episode of this season.

• 1:14:01Andy Greenwald?

  Of this first season perhaps as well.

• 1:14:03Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, I think that like, I, I think that there was a different version of this show on the first season that was way more about like all the disasters that a guy like Tommy has to handle. And my relationship to the show was a little bit more kind of like fun-loving and forgiving when I was like, it's kind of cool to see like all the different things that go wrong in the oil, in the oil business and in this world and how this guy has to handle it. And then the second season is largely. Tommy in a pickup truck, driving back and forth across Texas, fielding calls.

• 1:14:33Andy Greenwald?

  Putting out fires.

• 1:14:34Chris Ryan?

  And putting out fires, but like, the first two episodes are kinda like that, and then there's like a middle block of six episodes that are essentially like, the Norrises.

• 1:14:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, uh, there is a Ministry of Propaganda, Caroline Levitt version of the show. In which, someone, and honestly, they should be leaking this, someone should leak this. Oh my god, the fact that we ended up in a creatively fulfilling and exciting place, considering all the challenges we had to go through making this show.

• 1:15:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:15:06Andy Greenwald?

  Please, someone leak that story, and even if it's pure Taylor whitewashed propaganda, like, I would love to hear that version.

• 1:15:15Chris Ryan?

  I don't think we're gonna get that.

• 1:15:15Andy Greenwald?

  No, cuz nobody, they don't care.

• 1:15:16Chris Ryan?

  And he doesn't talk.

• 1:15:17Andy Greenwald?

  No, uh, he talks through his characters, and turns out, sometimes, you just need to give the fairer to Bath.

• 1:15:25Andy Greenwald?

  It is tough to give the show points.

• 1:15:29Chris Ryan?

  Credit, yeah.

• 1:15:30Andy Greenwald?

  For ending in a place, as you said, that if that was the goal, there is a more economical and entertaining way to get there. We could ask a hundred questions, and I have them here in bullet point form, about what any of it was for, if this is where we were going. I think the truth, the only plausible interpretation of the show, is that the showrunner, who writes every episode, is essentially a wind dancer in front of a Fort Worth auto dealership, getting distracted by shiny things, blowing in different directions. Because, you can't tell me that this was what the season was all about. The end of season, let's just talk through this chronologically and logically.

• 1:16:10Andy Greenwald?

  The end of season one, Tommy is tied up, beaten, a nail gun shot into his leg. All at the behest of cartel boss Andy Garcia.

• 1:16:21Chris Ryan?

  Well, really, their account, he's more of like their money manager.

• 1:16:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but then he's just like, I'm gonna have them remove the nail from your leg now, but I own you and you have been warned.

• 1:16:30Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:30Andy Greenwald?

  Don't do this shit again. Second season reintroduces Andy Garcia as the man who controls all of Tommy's son's drilling. And that leads to a six-episode run of Tommy walking into Andy Garcia's office saying, "Fuck you." And he goes, "I don't know, Tommy. Fuck me. Maybe fuck you." And then they run it back while their wives become friends because shopping.

• 1:16:53Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:54Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Concurrent to this was the idea that Demi Moore was in the cast of the show for an entire season last year.

• 1:17:01Chris Ryan?

  Where she's swimming laps.

• 1:17:02Andy Greenwald?

  Where she just swims laps and sometimes strokes Jon Hamm's cheek.

• 1:17:05Chris Ryan?

  Gives him a smoothie and a heart pill.

• 1:17:07Andy Greenwald?

  Because when he, you know, they do the Taylor special and it's like, "I thought this guy was on another ship." Ohhh. She would step up. In the early going, we see her learn to fight on the savanna by talking shit about younger women in bathrooms.

• 1:17:25Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:17:27Andy Greenwald?

  Then, just as she's stepping into her power, we learn that primarily what she wants to do is have unhinged Emmy-baiting, crying freakouts where she pours out whiskey at gravestones. That's what she does for about two or three episodes.

• 1:17:44Andy Greenwald?

  Suddenly, at the end of the season, she becomes the gambler of all gamblers.

• 1:17:48Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:17:49Andy Greenwald?

  Commits $400 million to a shot in the dark in the ocean. A shot in the dark that we kind of root for because I thought we were supposed to root for the risk-takers on this show. And also that geologist is super hot with great body products and Rebecca's in love with him and wants this path to be followed. Tommy talks Andy Garcia into backing it, then says, "That's a bad idea to back it."

• 1:18:10Chris Ryan?

  Cami really talks. Yeah. Tommy never is really for this.

• 1:18:13Andy Greenwald?

  And then Cami fires him and suddenly, everyone, I mean, this might be something that is actually relevant in America. Everyone here was always against this. Right?

• 1:18:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things. I think what you're reacting to is the same thing. I largely agree with you about this. We're reacting to, if this was an album, it was poorly mixed.

• 1:18:35Andy Greenwald?

  That is so generous.

• 1:18:37Chris Ryan?

  My point is this.

• 1:18:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Chris Ryan?

  There's a straightforward or more straightforward way of telling this story that hits certain beats at certain points and turns the kick drum up enough so that you're like, ah, yes, this is the tempo or the rhythm. I need to keep, be aware of this. But because they emphasize Ainsley and Cooper and Angela doing stuff in and around Texas.

• 1:19:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Chris Ryan?

  As much as the oil drilling aspect of it and the company, the MTEx aspect of it, it kinda, the MTEx stuff seems to kind of like be lost somewhere underneath a bunch of noise. And then at the end, they're like, no, no, no. Kami has always been a gambler. She's trying to prove that she, like, that Monty lives forever through this company.

• 1:19:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:19:28Chris Ryan?

  But Nate has always known that this company was

• 1:19:31Andy Greenwald?

  Always.

• 1:19:32Chris Ryan?

  built to be sold because he's been hiding all these boxes in the basement of this building.

• 1:19:37Andy Greenwald?

  Always.

• 1:19:38Chris Ryan?

  And he's like, he never meant for this to go on. He meant for it to be sold. You should sell it.

• 1:19:43Andy Greenwald?

  Why doesn't he live in the house hundreds of miles away from where the boxes are?

• 1:19:47Chris Ryan?

  I don't know. I think he's supposed to be like overseeing the contracts needed for the drilling area.

• 1:19:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Sure. Um, I like that it's so elegant, the sane washing you just did.

• 1:19:59Chris Ryan?

  No, it's not sane washing.

• 1:20:00Andy Greenwald?

  This, the analogy to like what happened with the Replacements albums, I love it.

• 1:20:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Andy Greenwald?

  Except the original Replacements albums didn't have an, like an incredibly old saxophone trying to fucking underage keyboard.

• 1:20:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Andy Greenwald?

  Like, that's not what the problem with those records were that needed to be cleaned up in the edit.

• 1:20:17Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah. I forgot about T L and Cheyenne.

• 1:20:18Andy Greenwald?

  Um, my take on the season is that Demi Moore had an A.J. Brown type campaign.

• 1:20:26Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 1:20:26Andy Greenwald?

  Where I believe that she may have been agitating to be traded early on in the making of the season.

• 1:20:31Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:20:32Andy Greenwald?

  Because I would say the amount of targets she was given did not really add up.

• 1:20:36Chris Ryan?

  You say that. Can we make a gentleman's bet right now? Let's get. I would say like, um, let's put a mid-level dinner on this. So.

• 1:20:46Andy Greenwald?

  Does that exist in Los Angeles?

• 1:20:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was just trying to say like, I guess that's like Sweetgreen.

• 1:20:49Andy Greenwald?

  The Arby's on Sunset that's now closed?

• 1:20:53Chris Ryan?

  I think she's back in season three.

• 1:20:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, look, we are existing in a universe where as part of his attempt to get an Oscar nomination, Will Arnett is showing up on The Madison next season, this first season. So like, showing up on a Taylor Sheridan show does not seem to be the same.

• 1:21:08Chris Ryan?

  Because you're saying that and it's like, oh, she got nominated for an Oscar for the substance. She's back. She can do movies and whatever. But I think, I think she's coming back in the third season.

• 1:21:19Andy Greenwald?

  I,

• 1:21:22Andy Greenwald?

  I, I'm not going to bring, uh, logic to a Sheridan fight. Like, that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

• 1:21:28Chris Ryan?

  You're in my world now.

• 1:21:30Andy Greenwald?

  And up is fucking down, dog. Like, I was, and sometimes you can be surprised. Like, I didn't know, uh, that the priority of a Texas Police Department would be to prosecute the man defending his fiancee from a attempted rape that is on camera. Like, that seems to be, first of all, great to see Mackenzie S. and get in work after his appearance on the pit last season. And I, and I, I felt like even as he was saying, some of the most horseshit lines I've ever heard in my life, in a completely implausible characterization, when he was allowed to speak, when he wasn't being monologued at, twice, because this is the classic thing about the generosity of Taylor Sheridan.

• 1:22:10Andy Greenwald?

  Rebecca got to walk in and just, it's like walking, it's like LeBron walking into a gym with 15 three-foot-high baskets.

• 1:22:17Chris Ryan?

  One day I want to see Rebecca in court.

• 1:22:21Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it would be a remarkable performance. And they'd be like, ma'am, this is an Arby's drive-thru.

• 1:22:26Chris Ryan?

  Chris and Andy are eating.

• 1:22:28Andy Greenwald?

  Can you lower it?

• 1:22:29Chris Ryan?

  Demi Moore was on season three, so Andy had to take Chris.

• 1:22:33Andy Greenwald?

  He had to do it. Um, and then, and then Tommy gets to come in and do the same scene, where the, I guess he's the chief of police, five times has to say, "We're just trying to consider the facts here, Tommy."

• 1:22:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Andy Greenwald?

  It's all such aggravated performative nonsense that it's almost insulting that it's all in the service of the C story in a season finale that's never going to come up again.

• 1:22:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:22:59Chris Ryan?

  That's how shows go for seven years now, though. This is the thing is that like you have to, you, you just don't know what it was like deep into Yellowstone where you were like, what am I watching?

• 1:23:11Andy Greenwald?

  I also.

• 1:23:12Chris Ryan?

  Where there would be like 15 minute scenes of dudes that you've never seen before, like eating at the bunkhouse.

• 1:23:18Andy Greenwald?

  The show's commitment to starting all scenes with an extreme close up of a, a woman in her underwear is remarkable. Like, as, you know.

• 1:23:28Chris Ryan?

  That's true.

• 1:23:28Andy Greenwald?

  As, as kids who grew up in the generation of like hoping Hot Dog the movie was on Cinemax, like, who among us, I respect it. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was.

• 1:23:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, if you had told young Andy, you never would have believed you.

• 1:23:40Andy Greenwald?

  That's a worldview that I, you know, I'm, I'm not immune to.

• 1:23:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Andy Greenwald?

  That said, like, the fact that this episode has the framing of Cheyenne's completely, you know, just underweared posterior, like fixing the car and like how they can't, that's the framing of it. And then they do the same framing to introduce Ariana as her bruises are being investigated at the police station.

• 1:24:00Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:24:01Andy Greenwald?

  Like the, you know, I respect the commitment to the bit, even though I may disagree with the, uh.

• 1:24:07Chris Ryan?

  I think you, I appreciate you standing up for Ariana and Cheyenne, but like everybody's here because they want to hear you talk about Pagan again.

• 1:24:14Andy Greenwald?

  I want to come back to Pagan. I did want to say that I spent this whole season seeing the credit for Stephen Kay being like, oh, like, I feel like, that's interesting. Did he?

• 1:24:21Chris Ryan?

  He must be like John Ford.

• 1:24:23Andy Greenwald?

  No, I thought he was like, there's something about that name that made me think that like he directed the sequel to Elizabeth that Sheikar Kapoor didn't get around to doing, like he was just some like, oh, he's a British guy who's done a bunch of stuff, yeoman like work, like this generation's Taylor Hackford, who's just like, um, and then you Google him and I learned that.

• 1:24:42Chris Ryan?

  He looks like a pirate.

• 1:24:43Andy Greenwald?

  Well, or he looks like, he, he looks like late period Motley Crue.

• 1:24:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:48Andy Greenwald?

  You know, and he's married to Piper Perabo. And I guess he's directed tons of Yellowstone and was an actor.

• 1:24:53Chris Ryan?

  And Piper Perabo was on Yellowstone.

• 1:24:55Andy Greenwald?

  So it is, so it really is all in the family.

• 1:24:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:57Andy Greenwald?

  Which I, I, I appreciate. I wouldn't want, um, you know, I spent a lot of time in England recently. I wouldn't want someone fresh off the boat, like the reverse me.

• 1:25:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Andy Greenwald?

  Walking onto the set of this show.

• 1:25:07Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 1:25:08Andy Greenwald?

  You want to talk about Pagan?

• 1:25:09Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about Pagan.

• 1:25:10Andy Greenwald?

  The pagan redemption arc?

• 1:25:11Chris Ryan?

  Well.

• 1:25:12Andy Greenwald?

  You have a little bit of, look at this face. You feel like maybe I jumped the gun.

• 1:25:15Chris Ryan?

  Let's hear it. Let's just, what did you think, bud?

• 1:25:18Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, well.

• 1:25:21Chris Ryan?

  I didn't think that that was where it was going to get left.

• 1:25:24Andy Greenwald?

  And them as good friends, understanding each other?

• 1:25:26Chris Ryan?

  No, those, those two as being like incredible adversaries and just like taking down gender non-binary people a peg.

• 1:25:34Andy Greenwald?

  You think that, you were, you were saying this is an argument for getting to know each other a little bit more. Working together.

• 1:25:40Chris Ryan?

  Reaching across the aisle.

• 1:25:41Andy Greenwald?

  Taping each other up.

• 1:25:42Chris Ryan?

  You and me were not so different.

• 1:25:43Andy Greenwald?

  Ahead of time. I was curious about Ainsley, who has spent a season and a half in just full on preparation for the rigors of cheerleading.

• 1:25:55Chris Ryan?

  Cause you know, these two seasons only take place over like six weeks. I'm just, did you know that?

• 1:26:01Andy Greenwald?

  No, I felt like it's been years. Like it's certainly been years for me. This has been six weeks?

• 1:26:08Chris Ryan?

  In terms of their, of, of the like, the time, the time that has elapsed in between, because she's like, my husband died two weeks ago. I'm not going to lose this company.

• 1:26:18Andy Greenwald?

  That's cruel. That's wild, dude. Ainsley did seem really surprised by the rigors of a professional sporting program. So it was good that Pagan was there to tape up her ankles ahead of time.

• 1:26:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:29Andy Greenwald?

  Um.

• 1:26:31Chris Ryan?

  If Ainsley had been working on her ankles instead of her tan all summer, you know, maybe she would have been a little bit more ready for cheerleading.

• 1:26:36Andy Greenwald?

  She hadn't so, been so distraught by the aromas of ferret that she broke her lifelong margarita.

• 1:26:43Chris Ryan?

  Yes. It's like that, that sugar is corroding.

• 1:26:45Andy Greenwald?

  A minute on the lips, a lifetime on the ankles is what they say. Thought it, I thought it was nice that they could, they could be friends. I thought it was nice that Pagan likes music. Who do they like? Laney Wilson?

• 1:26:54Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:55Andy Greenwald?

  Um, I, I, I think that the correct takeaway here.

• 1:27:00Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if Ainsley and Pagan let that Zach Bryan rip after, after everything.

• 1:27:04Andy Greenwald?

  You like this new record, huh?

• 1:27:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:06Andy Greenwald?

  I'll check it out. The, it's just. It's just layer. It's like a, it's like a peasant bed.

• 1:27:14Chris Ryan?

  I don't think you're gonna like it.

• 1:27:14Andy Greenwald?

  Tournament at Game of Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

• 1:27:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Andy Greenwald?

  It's just layers of straw after another to support the initial arguments. So the Pagan Ainsley collision, where Pagan is basically like, Chat GPT, tell me what Megyn Kelly said last week and let me just embody it. That was the entire character.

• 1:27:34Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:35Andy Greenwald?

  This week, he's like, hmm, nuance. Let me have three dipshits from high school being like, hey, take them out or whatever. And then, and then she's like, you guys have little dicks. And they're like, well, we don't, we watch hot dog together all the time. Like, okay, I guess it balances out and more, I'm the fool. The big broad strokes, like the most frustrating thing about the show isn't the borderline incompetent writing and the insulting gender politics.

• 1:28:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:07Andy Greenwald?

  It's the fact that every so often it drives near a good television show.

• 1:28:12Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:28:13Andy Greenwald?

  You can feel the contours of it. And thus, doing the Sterling Cooper, Draper Price thing that industry also did is the right move to get all of the characters that we have built empathy equity with over the course of now two seasons into the same place, into the same business, not driving in opposite directions from each other all the time makes sense. Now Rebecca, who has proven herself to be relatively risk averse up to this point, her willingness to just throw her entire professional career in with this group of dipshits is wild.

• 1:28:44Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that Nate made a bit of a professional mistake there?

• 1:28:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, what is?

• 1:28:49Chris Ryan?

  Kami offers him interim president.

• 1:28:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:28:52Chris Ryan?

  Tommy makes him treasurer.

• 1:28:54Andy Greenwald?

  A hundred percent. He fumbled the bag. He lives in someone's guest room.

• 1:28:59Chris Ryan?

  And does everybody get the same equity stake regardless of their?

• 1:29:03Andy Greenwald?

  Just bossing his workers.

• 1:29:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think management shares in the spoils, you know?

• 1:29:06Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you don't think so?

• 1:29:07Andy Greenwald?

  No, I don't. Now, we don't know what kind of pay package treasurer comes with, but I think of a man of Nate's age and stature, I feel like president and then like a golden parachute makes a lot more sense.

• 1:29:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:29:18Andy Greenwald?

  He could maybe have his own apartment one day.

• 1:29:22Chris Ryan?

  Or move to Dallas.

• 1:29:23Andy Greenwald?

  Or fucking move to where he actually works.

• 1:29:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:27Andy Greenwald?

  I also feel frustrated that while.

• 1:29:31Chris Ryan?

  Cause Rebecca doesn't know anything about oil drilling, really. I mean, maybe she doesn't need to, but like she has to have her boyfriend explain how looking for natural gas in the Gulf works and stuff like that. But she has made COO of CTT oil and cattle.

• 1:29:50Andy Greenwald?

  I also want to say that the defining feature of Tommy's life coming out of season one is.

• 1:29:57Chris Ryan?

  But I guess Tommy took a demotion as well.

• 1:29:59Andy Greenwald?

  He did, but that was for family.

• 1:30:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Andy Greenwald?

  That was because he wanted to put an 82 year old who cannot navigate a wooden chair successfully in charge of drilling. Like, look, I am all for, and soon hopefully will be the beneficiary of a push to include elders in the workplace. Like, we are grateful that anyone's listening at all at this point. But I do think that maybe the general direction of the country has suggested that it's time to turn the page on baby boomers.

• 1:30:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:27Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe. Could be wrong. Yeah.

• 1:30:31Chris Ryan?

  So when we get to this time this year.

• 1:30:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Chris Ryan?

  I guess because I think they're on the same track of they're gonna start shooting in the spring and have it up in the late fall.

• 1:30:41Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:30:43Chris Ryan?

  Do you think you'll have a return engagement with Lion Man season three?

• 1:30:47Andy Greenwald?

  You have to explain to me like, like what, you know, there's like soft asks and then there's harder asks in terms of my continued participation in this podcast. And I'm well aware of it and I like to navigate the politics as well as anyone.

• 1:31:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Andy Greenwald?

  You know, so you tell me.

• 1:31:03Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:31:04Andy Greenwald?

  You tell me.

• 1:31:08Chris Ryan?

  I'll wait for that. I'll wait for that season three trailer drop and the casting announcements and stuff.

• 1:31:12Andy Greenwald?

  A year ago, though, the defining hallmark of Tommy's life was I will not be in business with the Mexican cartel.

• 1:31:20Chris Ryan?

  And now he's like, well, I mean, it was, he's finally getting back on the casino floor. You know, he's finally taken a spin at the big roulette wheel.

• 1:31:29Andy Greenwald?

  At the young age of 70.

• 1:31:34Andy Greenwald?

  One thing that I do respect, and we can move on from this, but I did want to get your opinion on this. One thing that I do like about the show, and maybe this is just a hallmark of television in general, you know, in which I'm sure people have noticed, like, no one ever says goodbye on a telephone call on TV and movies, because that's just extra dialogue and it's a waste, so we move on. When Tommy has his power lunch to make his pitch to Bob, as soon as Bob makes it clear that, like, he would hire him, he just stands up and leaves. Have you ever done that? Would you do that at Arby's?

• 1:32:01Chris Ryan?

  I've never done that. I want to. I want to try.

• 1:32:05Andy Greenwald?

  All lunch meetings, you know, you have to make small talk for a while.

• 1:32:09Chris Ryan?

  You know what I do do sometimes is I think I have a, like, a shorter clock than most people is that, like, we get to the end of a dinner, and some people like to linger. I'm not a big lingerer at a restaurant table.

• 1:32:22Andy Greenwald?

  I want to say as someone who's dined with you, your physical performance at the end of meals makes that clear.

• 1:32:30Andy Greenwald?

  When it's time for-

• 1:32:31Chris Ryan?

  See, it's okay if I say it. I don't like it when you say it.

• 1:32:33Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just saying, when it's time for you to go, you go.

• 1:32:36Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:32:36Andy Greenwald?

  You know, there starts to be some movement, there's a little bit of, like, there's a little bit of watch looking.

• 1:32:41Chris Ryan?

  Interesting. What else you want to tell me about myself?

• 1:32:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's the same thing that you do when I bring up how I recently completed Effinger's, an 800-page book published by New York Review of Books.

• 1:32:50Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Kaia.

• 1:32:51Andy Greenwald?

  You don't want to do your sports, man?

• 1:32:52Chris Ryan?

  Uh, not really. We've been here for a really long time. Thanks to Kai. We will be back on Thursday with The Pit, maybe some movie talk?

• 1:33:02Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, sentimental value. That's the movie of the year.

• 1:33:07Chris Ryan?

  The sentimental values eclipse Marty Supreme?

• 1:33:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:33:10Chris Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:33:11Andy Greenwald?

  Like, easily.

• 1:33:13Chris Ryan?

  Great.

• 1:33:14Andy Greenwald?

  You know how I am a sucker for a multi-generational family story set in Europe?

• 1:33:19Chris Ryan?

  Let's wrap there.

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

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