Lewis Howes: The Myth of Masculinity, The Power of Vulnerability & What It Means To Be Great

This week I celebrate my friend and fellow podcaster Lewis Howes, host of The School of Greatness. I met Lewis a couple years ago when we were both newbie podcasters. He did my show. I did his show. Friendship ensued. A former professional football player and team handball Olympic hopeful who bottomed out before blossoming into a successful online entrepreneur, Lewis defies the stereotype that typically accompanies most successful alpha males. With a glint in his eye, Lewis is warm, incredibly giving, and a stellar example of what life can be like when your heart is open — gratitude in motion. After an injury prematurely ended his football career, Lewis was depressed, aimless and broke. Yearning for inspiration as he convalesced on his sister's couch, he arrived at a question: What kind of life do I want to lead? Then he got to work. He sought out mentors — people thriving on their own terms. Applying the wisdom of those he respected, he began to create a vision for himself. He learned how to turn adversity into advantage. He cultivated a champion's mind-set. He hustled. He mastered his body. He practiced positive habits like appreciation, gratitude and mindfulness. He built a winning team. And perhaps most importantly, he learned how to be of service to others. It worked. Living exactly the life he envisioned for himself daydreaming on his sister's couch in Ohio, today Lewis is a successful business coach, online entrepreneur, public speaker, podcast host, and now author. Leveraging his personal experience and the wisdom of his mentors and inspiring podcast guests — Lewis has culled the best of what he has learned in a new book that came out just yesterday appropriately titled The School of Greatness: A Real World Guide To Living Bigger, Loving Deeper, And Leaving A Legacy*. A primer on how to manifest your own internal greatness, it’s a fun, easy and informative read that not only inspires but provides actionable lessons and practical exercises aimed at helping you create vision and reach your ultimate potential. On a personal note, I am deeply honored that Lewis includes my story in his book. I’m essentially the primary subject of chapter 5 entitled Master Your Body. I love this guy. His positivity and integrity is infectious. It is my privilege to support him and his new book by sharing his message with you today. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  The more you give and help others and serve other people, the more you're going to get what you want.

• 1:09Rich Roll?

  That's fellow podcaster and lifestyle entrepreneur Lewis Howes, and this is episode 189 of the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:29Rich Roll?

  Hey, you guys, what's going on? What's happening? It is your friendly neighborhood Rich Roll. I am the host of this podcast that you are tuning into, which I appreciate very much. What do we do here? Well, this is the podcast where I sit down with the outliers, the big forward thinkers, people that are moving mountains, who are advocating for positive paradigm-breaking culture change across all categories of health, fitness, entrepreneurship, sustainability, basically a wide variety of topics and personalities, people that just inspire me, that educate me, that captivate me, whose message I want to help share. And I do this to help all

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  All of us, myself included, of course, unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves, which I think we all owe to ourselves, do we not? So, thanks so much for subscribing to the show, you guys. I really appreciate it. I appreciate everybody who has given us a review on iTunes. If you haven't done that, take a moment to do so. We greatly appreciate it. It helps us out a lot. And you know what really helps us out a lot? When you guys use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. There's a banner ad right there on the main podcast page. We have one for the US, one for the UK. You click on it, takes you over to Amazon, you buy whatever you're going to buy, and it doesn't cost you anything extra. Amazon kicks us some loose commission change, and it's really just a great free way to support the mission, to put your stamp of approval on what we're doing over here.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  If you listen to the show, then you know that the other day I had Gabor Maté on the show, and I traveled all the way to Vancouver just to interview him. And that trip was made possible, basically, because of your support, because of you guys using the Amazon banner ad. And I really appreciate it, and I want to be able to continue to do that. And the way that I can do that is by you guys helping me out by doing your Amazon shopping via the richroll.com podcast banner ad. So, thank you so much. It really does help us out a lot. So, today on the show, it's all about my friend Lewis Howes, fellow podcaster, host of the School of Greatness podcast, probably some overlap in our audiences, probably some

• 3:40Rich Roll?

  people that listen to me that also listen to his show. And he's got a new book that came out this week titled The School of Greatness, of course, and we're going to get into all of that in a minute. But first... All right, today's show. So, Lewis Howes. Lewis is a guy I met early in my podcast career. He came on the show on episode 23. We did each other's programs. We were both pretty new to the podcasting world at the time. I think I started maybe a couple of months before him. And for more on his basic background and life story, you might want to check out that episode. Again, it's episode 23. ...into his whole origin story, so to speak. Anyway, I immediately liked the guy.

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  He's incredibly warm and giving and grounded. He's happy. He exudes gratitude and he's got this like little spark or glimmer in his eye and we immediately became friends and we stayed in touch and we've been a source of mutual support for each other throughout our kind of podcast careers and experience. He calls himself a lifestyle entrepreneur. I know that's kind of a weird word. I mean, what does that really mean exactly? I think people throw around these kind of titles for what they do very cavalierly, but I would say that Lewis really is that. Quickly to kind of recap his background, after an injury ended his career in football, he was aimless for some time and he was seeking for inspiration

• 5:08Rich Roll?

  while he was kind of camping out on his sister's couch in Ohio and he began to seek out mentors. And with each mentor that came into his life who kind of provided him with some wisdom and some tools, he started applying this knowledge base that came from these people that he respected and the football coaches that he'd had over the years and ultimately ended up building a very successful online business, working today as a business coach, a speaker, a podcast host, and now an author. He shares much of what he has learned and continues to learn through his podcast, which, much like mine, although perhaps a little bit more entrepreneurship focused, is an interview-based show where he probes the minds of all kinds of people and experts, basically people that have inspired him in

• 5:51Rich Roll?

  various ways. And now, he has taken the best of what he has learned on his journey and leveraging the wisdom of his podcast guests, has put together all of it in a new book that came out this week called The School of Greatness. In fact, as I'm sitting here recording this, it is Tuesday, October 27th. Today's the day that it came out, which is very exciting for him, very exciting for him, and I'm excited for him. The book is basically a primer on how to cultivate and better manifest your own internal greatness. And on a personal note... I'm very honored that he actually included me in his book. I'm essentially the primary subject of chapter five, which is entitled "Master Your Body." So that's super cool,

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  right? It's pretty touching that he would include me so voluminously in this book that I think you're probably going to start seeing everywhere in airports and Barnes & Noble, wherever you turn, because he's quite the marketer and I think it's going to be a media explosion of Lewis over the next couple of weeks. In any event, the book is a fun, easy, and informative read that not only inspires, but it also provides some great practical tools and actionable lessons and exercises and resources to really help you reach your potential, to create vision, and to use dedication, mindfulness, and perhaps even more importantly, joy, gratitude, and love to reach these goals. But more than

• 7:17Rich Roll?

  all of that is really just Lewis himself. Contrary to kind of the stereotypical type A entrepreneur, football player type guy, Lewis is just incredibly warm and giving. And with me, he's always been quick with encouragement, support, and honesty, and he's a guy with quite a bit of integrity. So I'm proud and honored and excited to share this conversation with him, with you guys, today. So let's dive in, let's audit a class with Professor Lewis Howes of the School of Greatness, and I hope you enjoy it.

• 7:56Rich Roll?

  Back together again.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:59Rich Roll?

  Good to see you, man.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Good to see you.

• 8:01Rich Roll?

  I was reflecting on the history of our relationship. We first met when we were both newbie podcasters.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, where did we first meet? Where was the first meeting?

• 8:11Rich Roll?

  There was another podcaster out there that introduced us, I think, online.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Who was that?

• 8:16Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to remember. A guy from Canada. What's his name? Now I feel terrible that I can't remember his name.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Amir?

• 8:22Rich Roll?

  No, not Amir.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Um.

• 8:24Rich Roll?

  I think we were just, we were introduced via email. I think you had done, uh, this guy's show and he had emailed me.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Another podcaster, huh?

• 8:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, you should meet this guy.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  In Canada.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Mark Fit?

• 8:35Rich Roll?

  Now I feel like we need to stop because he's gonna listen to this.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Wow, I can't remember this. We'll have to check our email inbox and see.

• 8:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it, it, it, and he was like, you gotta check this guy out and he's in LA. Um, so we hooked up and then, uh, I think we both maybe had had, I don't know, 20 episodes in the camp. I think I started a little bit before you, but not that long. Like now, looking back, it's like we basically started at the same time, but, but then it was like, well, I'm way ahead of you.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I was like, you've been, your numbers are crazy.

• 9:04Rich Roll?

  Uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, you came on my show. I did your show, early days, uh, and that sparked a friendship. And then, uh, you recently had me on again and now I'm having you on again, man. So it's good to see you.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Good to see you. I appreciate it.

• 9:18Rich Roll?

  It's always a, a pleasure to come over and hang out with you. Um, and I just, uh, I wanted to say I really enjoyed your episode with Casey Neistat that you just put on. I thought you did a really good job with that.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Thanks for the introduction.

• 9:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's a, he's a super cool guy.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Very cool guy.

• 9:32Rich Roll?

  Hope your listeners, uh, enjoyed that. Um, and we have so many things to talk about. I want to talk about podcasting. Of course I want to talk about the new book, The School of Greatness. Um, before we get into the book though, I thought it would be cool to kind of, you know, I'm interested because like I do what you do sort of. Like I wanna, I wanna understand, I wanna talk a little bit about like, you know, what your experience has been, uh, over the course of the last couple of years of, of doing this podcast. Like it's been quite a journey for you.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  It's been amazing, man. I mean, it's, uh, it started off as just like a hobby. Cause I was, I moved to LA for a girl that didn't work out. And I remember being like upset. I wanted to move back to New York, but I was like, let me just stick it out and see what happens. And I remember asking Derek Halpern and Pat Flynn, uh, and a few other people. I was like, what are the biggest traffic generators and lead generators for you in your business right now? And Pat and Derek had said, you know, their podcasts were just taking off and like the amount of engagement they were getting and the opt-ins. I was like, I'm in transition. I sold a company. You know, I'm single. I'm in this new city and I realized that everyone is stuck in traffic in LA for like hours. And I was like, I think I could do this. If these guys can do it, I could do it. So it started off as a hobby once a week.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  And within like the first month or two, people just started really connecting with it and they were like, they like resonated and sent me the long emails about how it's like changing the way they think. And I was like, maybe there's something here. So I committed that first year to one episode a week. Cause I think that was just what people were doing. They're like, oh, you gotta be consistent once a week. So I did that. Then people were like, we want more. You know, we listen to it on Mondays and then we gotta listen to something else for the next six days. And so, okay, I'll do twice a week the second year. And I did that and that was a lot. Two interviews a week is a lot.

• 11:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I just started doing two a week, uh, maybe three or four months ago.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  It's a lot of work. I don't know how some of these guys.

• 11:24Rich Roll?

  I have some sustainability, uh, you know, questions about it.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Cause you wanna be, you wanna have high quality. You wanna be able to be present, great production value. So, and you don't wanna just get anyone on. You wanna have great guests.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Once you set the bar at a certain place, like, you know, finding people to come on, it no longer becomes, once it, once the show reaches a certain, you know, audience level, then, you know, getting people to come on is not a problem.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:48Rich Roll?

  But getting the right people, the people that are gonna, you know, be, keep the bar at the level that you wanna keep it.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  Becomes a thing that's always like, you're, you always gotta chase that.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. So I did it twice a week the second year and then people were like, we want more. And I was like, I don't know how much more I can give you right now. It's expensive. You know, I started to do some video stuff and, and so I was like, okay, I'll do it three times a week. I'll do two fuller episodes on Mondays and Wednesdays. And on Friday, I'll do like a five minute inspirational message. And I had no clue how those would do. But now someone tweeted me this morning saying, I wake up on Fridays for Lewis Howes's five minute Friday episodes. Like, that's what I wake up for.

• 12:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  I was like, okay, cool. They don't get as much as the fuller length ones, but they do pretty well and they inspire people and.

• 12:33Rich Roll?

  Right. Three a week, man. So how many you've got? You're in the two hundreds now on episodes, right?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Twenty-two as of, yeah, the time we're doing this.

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  Wow. So I started before you, but I'm on like one seventy-three or something like that.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. It's, you know.

• 12:48Rich Roll?

  That's a lot, man.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  We'll see how I can sustain it. It's interesting cause I'm in the middle of this book launch right now. So I'm doing so many other people's podcasts. And I'm doing this whole virtual summit, which is 30 interviews that are, you know, a lot of energy to like prepare and interview people and be present. And then I'm doing three episodes a week for my own show. So it's just nonstop interviews right now and it's a lot of fun, but I'm excited when the book launches over. Cause it's like to get back to normal schedule.

• 13:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, it's a lot of energy like, uh, you know, I can't do more than one podcast interview a day. Like I'm, I'm drained, you know, cause like to hold your attention, to be present, to listen, to like be engaged. You know, it's a, it's a lot of energy output and then to go back and then you gotta get it up online and edit it. You know, it's a lot of things. So how is the video aspect of it working out for you? Cause there's a lot of people, you know, telling me like, why aren't you doing video? You should do video.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  I think you should do video, actually. It's been, uh, it's a lot more money. I mean, here's the thing, Jonathan Fields, who I think you know as well, you've had him on your show, I think. You know, he did a video show for a while, a year or two, and it was just like a lot of money, a lot of energy. And he realized he switched to just audio and he's getting more downloads and better engagement, I think now. So it's kind of like, it's tough to solidify and see if like, that's really good at me, be a difference maker for you. I started doing video when I had Tony Robbins on, I had this interview and I was like, I just have to have a video crew there. So I put it on YouTube and the response went through, uh, through the, through the roof. And I was like, okay, well I'll do video just for bigger guests.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Like if I get some bigger celebs, I feel like I have to have video to add more value to my credibility, my brand, to create content on my YouTube channel, to use for Instagram and just like to use on Facebook as well. Cause Facebook native video is blowing up.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  So I was like, I can use it for all these different things and it's proven to be like beneficial, very beneficial. But just sometimes the videos get like 2000 views and you're like, okay, was that worth spending 500 bucks? And the whole, the whole setup to do that.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an interesting equation to solve and we were talking a little bit about this before the podcast began, but you know, kind of when you look at like what Casey Neistat's doing and of course, you know, his videos are unparalleled in their quality.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 15:10Rich Roll?

  But the level of engagement that you can get when you really hit a chord on video doesn't compare to audio. You know, there's a connection that people can make to the moving image that maybe is a little bit more difficult when it's just audio, but it becomes a whole different thing.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  The challenge is though, people don't have, you know, 30 to 60 minutes to listen, watch a video.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Very few people can focus for that long. So the audio is great because people listen to us in the car, when they're working out, when they're cooking food. So that's the thing that's cool about audio. I think that's different and has an advantage over video.

• 15:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Unless you're doing like little five-minute segments on video like Casey does, it's tough to stay focused for an hour.

• 15:48Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, I agree with that. You know, I'm thinking about like-

• 15:52Speaker 01

  But then Joe Rogan does it too, for three hours and people watch it. So I don't understand.

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  That's great. I know. That's amazing, right?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 15:58Rich Roll?

  And it's not like a high-quality video. It's like a live stream, like, you know, sort of low-resolution thing. And the fact that people watch that is amazing, but they do. So-

• 16:07Speaker 01

  So it depends.

• 16:08Rich Roll?

  We're all just learning. So, you know, in the kind of vein of learning, like what, you know, what has the podcast done for you? I mean, outside of like marketing and all, you know, whatever, building a brand, like just interpersonally, like the experience of having the opportunity to sit down with all the people that inspire you. I mean, it's a very privileged position that, you know, I find myself in and I know you do, to be able to pick up the phone and call somebody that you think is super cool and hoodwink them into sitting down with you and talking to you and answering all your questions.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  And then becoming friends with them later.

• 16:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really an amazing thing that has enriched my life in ways that I can't even begin to articulate. So I'm interested in how that's been for you.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  It's been the best relationship builder ever because you're getting people on, you're allowing them to share what matters most to them, and then you're promoting that message to the world. I don't know if there's a better gift you can give someone, especially if you have a platform. And if you can help them with, you know, if they have a book or a movie coming out or whatever it is, and you can help them with their goals as well, it's like the greatest relationship builder. The key to success in life is relationships. So we're doing something really powerful to add value to other people. And the things that come from it- The intangibles. It's like you never expect some of these things. Like I had a guy on, I was telling you a few weeks ago.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  And then he was just like, you know, he sold a company for 800 million dollars. And he was just like, hey, how can I help you? I was like, well, I've got a book coming out. Is there any way you can buy like some copies in bulk? And he was like, sure. Let me, let me buy 500 copies and I'll give them all to charity. I was like, awesome. It's like you just never know what's gonna happen from the relationship.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Yeah. And I think, you know, relationships are at the core of kind of, you know, who you are and what you're about. I mean, you're very much, uh, you know, someone that, that Malcolm Gladwell would call a connector.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:00Rich Roll?

  Um, and I've been able to, you know, notice how you, how you kind of manage your relationships just based on our relationship and, and, and, you know, mutual friends that we have and, and how you kind of treat and, and really cherish those relationships. And, and I think it brings up something really interesting to me, um, to talk about that maybe, you know, some of the people that, that follow you might not even know, which is, um,

• 18:25Rich Roll?

  you really approach your friendships from a place of service and giving, you know? And I think, you know, just with respect to like our relationship, it would be very easy to go, well, Rich's show is, you know, we do, it's a little bit different, but it's kind of the same. You know, we're both kind of in the same category and

• 18:43Speaker 01

  We are in the health category.

• 18:45Rich Roll?

  You know, it's like, this guy is my competitor, you know, like who's ahead of who and, and, and get into kind of a zero sum game mindset about like, you know, well, who does Rich have on and who does Lewis have on? And like, you know, I gotta get ahead, whatever. But that's never been our relationship. Like we freely share, you know, guests. And if I come across somebody that I think is cool, like I think I just emailed you a couple of days about William McCaskill. I was like, you should have this guy on. He'd be great.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  What's his book name again?

• 19:13Rich Roll?

  It's called Doing Good Better.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have his book. I was like, read, his book is on my assistant's shelf right there. And I saw the name. I was like, I think Rich just introduced me to this guy. But we have his book.

• 19:23Rich Roll?

  He's amazing.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll probably have him on there.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  And it was, it's, it's like, you know, on, on the tip that you were just saying about like having guests on and, and being in that privileged position of being able to help them by exposing, you know, what they're doing to your audience. You know, he's like, he's like, you know, who other, who else, you know, what other podcast should I do? How, you know, and I was like, oh, I'll, I'll connect you with Lewis. I'll connect, you know, like they're, like it feels good to be able to say, I can help this guy.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Rich Roll?

  And that's always been our relationship. Like, I don't feel competitive with you at all. And I feel like there's certainly room for both of us and there's some overlap and, you know, our audiences are somewhat different. But to the extent that I can help you, I know that, you know, we're all just helping ourselves.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 20:05Rich Roll?

  You know, and that's a cool mindset to be in.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  But I think it's counterintuitive to how most people function and operate. So I'm interested in kind of how you, you know, how you conceptualize that and, you know, the relationships that you have.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for me, you know, I don't know. I think I used to be a lot, I think a lot differently about competition and about making introductions for people earlier in my career because I wanted to have the advantage. But then something shifted where I was like, there's so much abundance in the world. And if I introduce you to one of my guests who's on my show, whatever, it's only going to add value to you and it's going to add value to me as well because you're going to see that I'm giving you something constantly and constantly looking out for you. And one day, you're going to want to have me back on your show to help promote whatever I'm doing. And so it's just going to constantly come back. If I give, I just know it's going to come back somewhere, whether it's through you or somewhere else, it comes back.

• 21:00Rich Roll?

  Was there something that happened, though, that caused you to have that realization?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  I think it's just the more I started researching, it was when I was like trying to make money. The more I started researching like the most successful wealthiest people, they talked about how the key to making more money is really giving more money away. And like, the more you give and help others and serve other people, the more you're going to get what you want. And I was just like, it was hard to think about that because when I was broke, because like, all I wanted to do was save the money and like, keep it to myself. So I was like, I don't want to, I don't have money to give to other people or like, give to charities or help other people. I need to like, help myself. But they kept emphasizing, even just a little bit here and there, like, the more you practice giving and giving away what you make, and that's also your skills, your value, your time, the more it's going to come back to you and abundantly 10 to 100 times more.

• 21:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And so once I started practicing, as opposed to being like scared of giving people like, my ideas or tips or connections, instead of being scared about it, I just freely gave it. And I realized, this is when I was like, writing like, my LinkedIn book, and I realized that it's more important to be the champion of everyone's network than to have all those relationships only to yourself. So I'd rather... Introduce you to my entire network and make you a multimillionaire, then try to just hold them to myself and make you work hard on your own. Because when you get to the top, you're gonna wanna bring me with you. And if you're the champion of everyone's network, every influencer's network, if you're that champion who always gives them what they need, makes the introduction to help them with their salesperson they need, or a designer,

• 22:33Speaker 01

  or a new COO, or whatever it may be, if you're the one connecting them to the solution of their life, they will be the solution for you at any time as well.

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I love it. And I've seen you practice that time and time again. And that's helped me too, because I understand that intellectually, and I practice it whenever I can. But then there's always that moment where you're like, yeah, but do I really wanna, maybe that one's just for me.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  And now, now there's discernment. Like, I have discernment with certain people. Like, if I feel like someone's just a taker, and they're like, they talk bad about me behind my back, or I feel like there's just weird energy with them, I'm probably not gonna go out of my way to make introductions, or like, serve them in the biggest way. Because there's other people who are nicer, who are up to bigger things, who have great values that I wanna serve. So I'm like, kinda choosy with who I serve, in that level, where I'm gonna go out of my way. So I'm not just like, giving to everyone at all the time.

• 23:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that's about healthy boundaries, right? And being conscious of the company that you keep.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:33Rich Roll?

  Right? And you keep some pretty amazing company, you know, and you've been able to cultivate some pretty amazing relationships with, you know, a lot of influential, you know, people out there, tastemakers and the like. And some of that is through the podcast, but some of that isn't, right? Like, you know, from a guy who is, you know, sort of couch surfing and sleeping in your sister's house in Ohio, to, you know, kind of being on speed dial with Gary Vee, and all these kinds of people that are kind of movers and shakers in this, you know, internet landscape that we live in. You know, how did you kind of claw your way to that place?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Man, you know, it was finding, you know, Gary, this is an example, since you brought him up, like, since 2009, I've been serving him in the biggest ways. You know, he came to Ohio to do a book signing event, and I like, brought the whole community out, and like, Drove him around wherever he needed to go and just like built it there. And then when it came out this first book, I think I sold like 500 copies for him or 800 copies for him or something like that uh from doing a webinar. And then when he had his next book Jab Jab Jab Right Hook, I sold 10,000 pre-orders for him.

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  I had three relationships. I was like, how can I help you sell this book? And he was like, I'll do speaking gigs for this amount. If you can get speaking gigs to trade for books. And I was like, done. Within like three weeks, I had 10,000 pre-orders for him.

• 24:52Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  From three relationships of event planners that I had built relationships with for years and just became friends with and said, hey, you can get Gary right now if you buy this many books. And made it happen. He only sold 40,000 something pre-orders and I sold a fourth of his preorder copies in three weeks. So it's just like for five years, I was adding value to him without asking for anything in return. And I do that for everyone. I'm constantly just adding value to these tastemakers without asking for anything.

• 25:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it goes back to that theme of of being in that place of giving.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  Right? Like being genuinely, honestly kind of rooted in that.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  Um, and uh, and it brings up kind of, you know, the idea of mentorship.

• 25:34Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm sure you get emails all the time like, hey, can I take you out to lunch, pick your brain or you know, all that kind of stuff.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  And when I get those emails, I'm like, you know, I just don't have time, you know, and but instead of doing that with Gary Vee, like you could have sent him an email like, hey, can I take you out to lunch? But instead, you just helped him.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 25:54Rich Roll?

  Right? And it's it's uh, you know, Ryan Holiday talks about this, like when he was starting out and you know, how he kind of tried to bring value to Robert Greene and you know, and how when you can be in that place of like, how am I contributing to these people to make their lives better without looking for, you know, what you're going to get out of it or what the paycheck is when you're just constantly in that place. Um, your life grows exponentially.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you know, I get these emails all the time too, and I would love to go hang out with everyone and have lunch with everyone, but we wouldn't get anything done if we did. Um, and the challenge is a lot of people email and say, hey, I'll move to LA for six months and work for you for free. I want to learn from you. And I'm like, that's flattering, but it would take more work to teach you how to do everything. And then you just leave and do your own thing. It's like, I would need someone like a Ryan Holiday, who was just gonna step in and do the work. And who's like, or who's someone who's gonna sell 10,000 copies for me, just because they want to be around me and they want to learn. That's like, how you gotta do it. How can you serve that person to the highest level without asking them their time?

• 26:54Rich Roll?

  How, how, uh, who have been the biggest mentors to you?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  You know, I had some early on mentors, guys that you probably don't know of, from Ohio, who really supported me. A guy named Chris Hawker, um, a guy named Frank Egan, who helped me write my first book, and then another guy named Stuart Jenkins, who's a big inventor as well. Those guys really kind of helped mold me into where I'm at now. But really, it was just online, like Chris Brogan early on, Gary Vaynerchuk. I would just watch their videos and read their blogs and I learned so much. And then I would meet up with them in person at events and just continue to learn from them by asking questions. But I feel like I learn from everyone. Constantly, I'm learning from people who are ahead of me, people who are just starting out.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  I'm picking up new ideas. I'm just reading content, watching videos, and I learn through osmosis, just by like, consuming information. Those are my mentors, you know, the information.

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. I feel like, um, you know, everybody wants to have, you know, somebody of the caliber of like a Gary Vee, or like a, you know, whoever it is that is sort of excelling in whatever field you're interested in. But I think, you know, there are people that are probably surrounding you in your own environment that could contribute to your life in a mentorship context in a way. So you get caught up in the sexiness of somebody who's doing something kind of, you know, exceptional, online or, or, or otherwise.

• 28:19Rich Roll?

  But, but that's not always, you know, the best route to go. Like who's around you that has experience that you could benefit from?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  And I think like, it's hard to get everything you want from one mentor these days. Like, as we're always, especially if you're an entrepreneur, if you've got big dreams, it's hard to get like everything you want from that one person. And that's why I think it's valuable to hire a coach to keep you accountable, to keep you on track, to show you what you're missing, uh, to let you know, to give you the right feedback of, and say, hey, this is how you're showing up. You want, you say you want this vision, but you're showing up in a weak way, where you're not like staying committed to it. So I'm gonna keep you accountable and give you great feedback.

• 28:59Rich Roll?

  Have you hired coaches in the past?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  I've got coaches for everything, man. I've got a life coach, I've got a business coach, I've got a relationship coach. For like every area of my life, I've got someone who's giving me feedback. And saying, okay, here, you say your, your vision is this, your goal is this, and are we on track or not? If not, here's what I sees in the way. So somebody who just keeps me accountable.

• 29:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the objective feedback, like people that aren't gonna just yes you.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  And then hold you accountable.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  I pay for them. Yeah, I pay, I pay for these coaches, yeah.

• 29:28Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's interesting. Like, I don't, I don't pay anyone like, uh, to do that professionally, but I definitely have a board of directors, you know, like, or a board of advisors. And I have like, certain people that I call for different kinds of things, you know, that have experience in these different areas of our life. And I think everybody should, you know, nominate their own, you know, board of advisors in their life. Because we don't have all the answers. And I think, you know, especially as men, you know, you're kind of reared to, to, to be this guy who walks around and pretends like he has all the answers to everything and has everything figured out.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:01Rich Roll?

  And ultimately, that's just a phenomenal weakness that you have to overcome, right?

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  And it brings up, uh, you know, issues of, of, uh, kind of openness and vulnerability and masculinity. And I think you have some really interesting, um, things to say about that and perspectives on that. Because, look, you know, you're like a, you're like a big dude, you're like a big, young, handsome guy, football player, handball player, like kind of an alpha male guy. Um, and you expect someone who kind of cuts that cloth to be a certain kind of guy, you know, kind of like a bro-down dude. You know, who's like, yeah, I got it all figured out. Like, let me tell you how the world works and all that kind of stuff. And, and I think that was...

• 30:48Rich Roll?

  One of the reasons why, like, I just love you so much is that you're not like that guy. Like, you allow yourself to be vulnerable.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:56Rich Roll?

  And, and in your own way, you're redefining kind of the parameters of masculinity in the sense that, like, you're a very affectionate dude.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  Very.

• 31:05Rich Roll?

  When I came at the door, you gave me a hug, and that hug just went on and on and on.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  You're like, long hugs, it got uncomfortable.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  But I love that.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 31:13Rich Roll?

  You know, it's like, you're not afraid to be affectionate. You're not afraid to share your feelings. You're not afraid to tell people in your life, including men, how you feel about them. So, like, let's explore that a little bit. Like, where does that come from? And, like, what is that about for you?

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Well, you know, I just did a talk at World Domination Summit about this, calling it the myth of, the myth of masculinity. And, you know, my whole life, my childhood, all I really wanted was to feel like hugs and loved by my family and my friends and just to, like, be accepted. I think all of us want that. We just want to be accepted. We want to feel good about ourselves. And I didn't feel good about myself growing up. So I had a lot of alone time, a lot of sadness. I was always getting into trouble. And I just didn't really feel like anyone cared about me. And so, in a lot of ways, it's made me driven to be a great athlete because I wanted to get the acknowledgement that, like, hey, I am worthy of your acknowledgement, of your care and of your love.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  And I know my family was there for me and they loved me, but it's just like, it was the story I told myself every single day. So I was so driven to be a great athlete that, you know, I focused a lot on my ego and it was like, that was my, became my identity. And, but I was still a very sensitive, emotional person growing up. My sisters would call me the sensitive jock because I was like this big guy that was like, rah rah, let's like, go punch people in the face in football. But then I'd like come back and like, I was like in the choir and like in the music hall and, you know, I was playing guitar and singing like love songs and things like, and stuff like that. So, and I would like tear up and like during sports movies or whatever and...

• 32:53Speaker 01

  So they would call me the sensitive jock and I think it wasn't until you know the last like five years when I really started to evolve and grow into letting go of like the ego that I need to have like this ego, this perfection image, this like I'm a tough guy image. Especially as I started to build a brand online and use my voice more. I realized that that wasn't serving me in my life, in my relationships that wasn't serving me. Uh, friendships that wasn't serving me and when I started to just be like, okay, this is who I am and I am. I have these fears and I have these vulnerabilities and I started to just talk about it. I realized a shift in everyone else as well. When I shifted, everyone else shifted around me. And I was able to connect in such a deep, intimate, loving way. And it was, you know,

• 33:38Speaker 01

  it got me quicker to my dreams. You know, again, the key to success in life is relationships. And the key to powerful relationships is vulnerability and being real. That's the quickest way to build relationship with someone and to create that connection. We could meet for five minutes and have like this surface level conversation. And really not connect with one another, or we could meet for five minutes. And one of us opens up and shares something that's like scary for us to share or that isn't sound perfect. Or that isn't the right thing to say. And we could feel like we've been friends forever. And have that connection and that instant relationship and be like, man, I feel like I just know you. I feel like I relate to you.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  You never have those feelings when you meet someone, you're like, man, I feel like I've just known this person forever. It's because they're bringing something out of them. That is a reflection of your intimacy, your fears, your vulnerability, and you feel safe around that person because they opened up.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  And that has been such a shift for me. Once I started to open up in that way with everyone. And just love. In such an open, vulnerable way. It doesn't mean I have to be like in tears all the time and like be like sharing my deepest, darkest secrets, but just like being real is vulnerable enough.

• 34:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Most people aren't real with people.

• 34:54Rich Roll?

  They're not, and it's understandable because it's terrifying.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  It is.

• 34:58Rich Roll?

  It is terrifying. You have to let your guard down. You have to put your ego aside and all this sort of cultural programming that we have our whole life about how we're supposed to carry ourselves. Um, has to be cast aside. So there's a lot of barriers to getting to that place. And I remember, I mean, it's been a while now, but you posted that podcast interview where you talked about, you know, being abused as a, as a young kid and. Um, I, I imagine that that was scary.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Very scary, man.

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  Like talk about that.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Very scary. It was about a year ago, a little over a year ago.

• 35:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, just explain a little bit about what that is.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was sexually abused. I was raped when I was five by my babysitter's son after school kindergarten. I went to this babysitter every day. And, uh, one day, you know, the son took advantage of me and I had no clue what was really happening and I was just going along with it. Um, and for 25 years I didn't talk about it to anyone. I just stuffed it down and now it's like my, my fuel. To get revenge on the world and to be the best. And I had to be number one in everything because I didn't want to be ever taken advantage of. So that's what made me train so hard. It was, I wouldn't say it was every, the reason why I trained so hard. It was like the, the reason, but it was.

• 36:09Rich Roll?

  How did you get to that place of self-awareness though, that that was a driver?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Um, man, I did a work, an emotional intelligence workshop a couple of years ago in LA where. We were going through all the things in our life that's been holding us back. So it was just like, all right, think about, has anything held you back? Your breakups, your, your parents going through divorce, maybe you went through a divorce. What are the things that guard you now? And so the facilitator was just like, look at the things in your life that have happened and what has shifted once those things happened for you? What has made you a harder person as opposed to softer person? What has made you, um, less open for love? What has made you? Guard yourself in conversations, all these different things, you know, and so he was like, think about these things.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  And, you know, my brother went to prison and I, my parents got divorced and, you know, I felt alone constantly. And I was in the special needs class all through elementary through school through to high school because I couldn't read and write. And so I was like, I've already talked about all these things, like those things don't affect me anymore. But I was like trying to go through all the things in my head, like what is holding me back? Like, is there anything like my brother was a big deal when he went to prison for four years and I had to go there every weekend in the visitor room to sit with him and be in a room full of convicts. And not have any friends during that four and a half years because the parents wouldn't let their kids hang out with me. Cause my brother's in prison. And I was like, I, I dealt with all these different things and I was fine with them all.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  And then it came in my head and I was like, oh, that moment when I was five.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Why haven't I ever talked about that? And why would I never addressed it with myself and been open?

• 37:47Rich Roll?

  But you can remember it.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I remember it vividly.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  It wasn't like a suddenly you remember, like you always, did you always remember it?

• 37:53Speaker 01

  It was always, always on my mind, like subconsciously. You know, it would come up, it was like a bad dream that I just remember constantly. But I can remember the smell, the taste, the room, everything about that moment. And

• 38:11Speaker 01

  it just was subconsciously always on my mind. And I think I tried to shove it away as like this dream that like it didn't happen, but I, it's like, I remember everything. And, um,

• 38:23Speaker 01

  so I was like, oh, wow. This is something for 25 years I haven't discussed. And if I can't discuss it with anyone, then it's probably holding me back. It's probably has like this hold on me, it's got this control, it's got this power over me. If I'm not willing to just address it and talk about it. And so I said, and he was like, okay, now is your time to fully let go of anything that's ever been holding you back. If you haven't let it go yet, now's the time to do it. You've got a safe space to talk about it, to do whatever you need to do. And I remember thinking, if I don't talk about this now, I'll probably never open up about it. Like here's my moment. And my heart started like pounding, I was like, what if, you know, if I share this with people, what are they going to think about me?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  I was so ashamed and afraid to hear of like, to think what people would look at me differently. You know, I had this image that I wanted to portray into the world of who I was. And that's not part of the image I wanted people to know about.

• 39:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  So I stood up in front of this room, it's probably about fifty people. And I remember I was like looking down at the ground, I couldn't look at anyone's eyes, I was just so terrified of what people would think, but I knew I had to do it. And so I shared openly, I told the whole story. And then I sat down. And luckily, there was two women sitting beside of me, but I just wept for about fifteen minutes, I just like. Release the biggest like wolf cry. Uh, for, you know, for so long. And I was so grateful that these women were like so compassionate, they were just like holding me. And I just could not hold back any tears, I was just like. I was so ashamed of myself still, I was so like embarrassed, ashamed of myself.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Felt guilty, felt like people were just gonna look at me bad. And I remember I just couldn't look up anywhere, I just like stayed down with my hands on my head. While these women were holding me and then. We like took a break from this, you know, from what we were doing and I just like ran outside. Out of the, the conference room or whatever, ran out into the, uh, to get some fresh air into the back alley. And I was just like in tears, I just did not want to go back in, I didn't want anyone to look at me. And when I was out there after a couple of minutes, it was like one of the most beautiful things that ever happened in my life, all these men came up to me and just hugged me. And said, like, you're the most courageous human being I know, like, thank you for sharing.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Here's what happened to me, people were opening up to me and I created this relationship with people that I'd just met, you know, a couple of days prior. Where it's like we were the closest of friends. Because I dropped my guard and my walls and revealed myself. And made them trust me. And when we don't reveal ourselves fully, we're never fully able to trust someone else. But it's when that person is like, you're so connected to Casey Neistat, it's because he's like so vulnerable and real in his videos. So you feel like you trust him right when you meet him. You're like, man, I know you, I trust you, you're amazing, I want to ask you these questions, I want to drop my guard because you do it every day.

• 41:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing. And you know, in, in the case of what occurred to you, I mean intellectually, you understood, of course, that, that there's nothing to be ashamed of because you were a victim.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:30Rich Roll?

  You were five years old. Like, how could you possibly have any culpability in this terrible act that was perpetrated upon you? And yet, that's the emotion that, you know, festered for, you know, decades.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Twenty-five years, man.

• 41:43Rich Roll?

  And then, obviously, you know, even though you kind of walked around with it thinking, well, it's not that big of a deal. It was kind of like a dream. I could ignore it. When you finally released it, like, the cathartic emotional breakdown, you know, is demonstrative of how much emotional power it was holding over you.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  It was holding a lot of power.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  It was holding a lot of power on me. Yeah.

• 42:01Rich Roll?

  It's a... And then, when did you get to the point where you're like, I'm gonna share this on the podcast?

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Well-

• 42:06Rich Roll?

  Because that's a whole different beast and I-

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I started, I got to the point where I was like, you know what? I want to share this with my family. Like, I shared it with this group of like 50 people who are going through this workshop. I was like, I think I need to share with my family. And I think it probably took a few weeks until I opened up one by one my family. And I actually, you know, I was working with, like, my relationship coach at the time. I was like, here's what happened. And I want to tell my family. I don't know how to do it. I'm terrified. Because I don't want them to feel bad. I don't want them to feel guilty. Like, they weren't there for me. I want my mom to be like, in pain. I just didn't want that. Um, because I could only imagine what that would feel like if I had a child and they said, I was raped by the babysitter you sent me to. Like, could you imagine the amount of guilt that a parent-

• 42:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the burden.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I just didn't want that. And she told me, you've got to ask him a set of questions first to set it up for him. And I was like, okay. And one of the, I can't remember all of them, but one of the questions was really powerful for me. She said, you need to ask them, before you tell them, is there anything I could ever do that would make you not love me?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  And just see what they say. Is there anything I could ever do that would make you not love me? And I asked that to everyone and they were like, absolutely not. Like, it doesn't matter what you do, I'll always love you. And so it created a space for me to be like, okay, I can share something that happened to, you know, 25 years ago. And they're still gonna love me. So I think that was my fear. Like, they were gonna look down at me. They were like, be ashamed of me or something. But my family's gone through so much. You know, my brother went to prison. You know, it's like, there's no other shame you can do than going to prison. There's no bigger shame, really. And so he was like, absolutely not, right away. He was like, of course, I will always love you. Like, there's nothing I could do. Um, and that created this safe space to really share openly. And

• 43:57Speaker 01

  man, I thought I knew my family well, but after I opened up about this to each one of them, it's like I had these hour-long conversations with each one of them.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  So you did it individually?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  I did it individually, on the phone. I couldn't do it in person. Well, they were, none of them were here in LA anyways, and I wanted to do it on the, you know, as soon as possible, as opposed to wait until Thanksgiving or something. And, um, it was like, man, I created such a deeper relationship with each one of my siblings. I've got three older siblings and my parents. Where we just, they opened up, we cry together, they opened up and shared other things that happened to them that I had no clue about. Um, it just helped us connect and understand each other better. And, and my sister was like, I always thought something happened, based on like, your defensiveness and your guardedness. I always thought something happened to you. And I was like, man, I

• 44:44Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I didn't even know. Yeah, she's like

• 44:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you're, you're putting out a vibe to the world that was noticeable on some level to her that I'm sure you were completely unaware of.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  I was completely unaware of it. And you're not just like reactive and defensive for no reason. Like, something has to trigger that for you. And you're not just like an angry person in certain situations for no reason. Like, there's a, there's a backing trigger. And so each conversation was just really powerful and brought me closer to my family, not farther away. So it created, what it created was freedom and connection. When I open up about who I am, or what's happened, or what hasn't happened, or my fears, it creates this intimacy, this connection, this freedom. Like, it was the biggest weight lifted off my shoulders 25 years of holding this secret. And I shared it with my family, and then I started sharing it with really close friends one by one, because I was like, okay, my family loves me, but what about my friends?

• 45:37Speaker 01

  So I started sharing with my friends one by one. And asking them the same thing, like, I want to share with you something, but I just want to, you know, ask, is there anything I could do that would make you not want to be, you know, my friend or love me and look at me a different way? And so I would set it up first. And, you know, all of them were just so supportive and loving and some people didn't know how to handle it. It was like a lot for them to hear. Yeah. Um, and sometimes it makes me think like, maybe something happened to them, but they Right, if somebody starts to freak out, maybe there's something going on. Yeah, and they're not ready to share and that's fine. Um, and I wasn't expecting people to open up and tell me their life story. I just knew I needed to get it out there to my closest friends and family.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  And it probably took like six months where I was like, I really feel like sharing this on my podcast could be something really powerful. But I only want to do in a way that supports people and serves people that doesn't try to like, have people think that I'm doing this for publicity or for whatever reason in a negative way. So for months, I was like, I'm not going to do it unless I can find a way to do it in a really ethical, value-driven way where it serves people. And I asked Jonathan Fields if he would interview me for it to kind of navigate the process because I thought he would be great. And so he agreed to, and we recorded it and I probably waited another three or four months till I released it. I was like terrified. I was like, what is the world going to think of me? Still, you know, I was still terrified because it's a different audience.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  And I remember posting it. I was sitting right where you're sitting and I posted it. And it was about a year ago, a little over a year ago. And it was at like, probably like 10:30 or 11 o'clock at night. And I had no clue what was happening that night. But I just decided like, okay, I'm going to post it today. It'd been sitting there. I was like, okay, I'm going to post it. I had this feeling like I need to post it now. And so I got the post ready. I edited it up. I put the, um, you know, the text in the blog post and then I clicked submit or publish. And I just tweeted it. All I did was tweeted. And for weeks I was working with my friend Glennon Melton, who I had on the podcast. Do you know her blog, momysterie.com? She's a big New York Times bestselling author, talks about vulnerability and stuff.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And I was like, here's what I'm doing. Can you help me figure out how to do this effectively? Like how to write a good headline so that it's captivating, but not alienating. And so she wrote the headline for me. She like helped me do everything. It's from like a woman who's been there and done that. And I publish it. I tweeted out. And then I'm like, okay, it's up to the gods, whatever happens now, like, I'm not gonna promote this hard, I'm just gonna tweet it and see what happens. And I literally turn around and I open up my balcony, I sit out here. And I'm like nervous, I'm like sweating, I'm like, what are people gonna think? What's the reaction?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  And I go on, I'm like scrolling through Twitter and I'm seeing like insane responses within like ten, twenty minutes as people like just retweeting me. But I'm also seeing something else happening. People are posting photos just randomly of something that was happening in the world. And it was a super moon that night.

• 48:38Rich Roll?

  Oh wow.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  And so I remember like, as I went out there, I look up and I see like the biggest, brightest moon I'd ever seen in my life. And it would happen to happen right on that night when I published it. It was like the weirdest thing, I was like, this is, there's, can't be coincidence.

• 48:52Rich Roll?

  That's a trip.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Like, it like pulled me to do it that day.

• 48:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  And I didn't even know that was happening.

• 48:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  And I was like, something is changing in the world where like, it's opening me up to do this.

• 49:01Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  And so I posted this one on, on the super moon night. And it was supposed to be like one of the biggest super moons in like the last hundred years or something. And the next day, I went, I went to bed and woke up and my inbox was flooded from emails of people sharing with me essays of stories about men and women just opening up about how they've been sexually abused and raped. And it wasn't something I was looking for. And I didn't know what I was gonna get. But the story, for like a week and a half, I was feeling like a hangover. I've never been drunk, but I felt like this extreme hangover by reading all these stories and reading the pain that people had gone through. But also

• 49:40Speaker 01

  reading how they're finally gonna take action and let it, and be free themselves. And so they all started sharing with their family and friends and telling me what they were doing to overcome this sexual abuse state experience.

• 49:52Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  And I'll tell you what, man, it made my story seem like a PG movie compared to the things I was reading. Like, I couldn't believe some of the stories people were telling me about their sexual abuse. And how many men and women have been abused, it's unbelievable.

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  That's a beautiful story, man. Thank you. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about it with you today, like, timing is everything. It's like these windows of opportunity arise where like, it's like, okay, now's the moment. Whatever happened in that moment that made you share it on the super moon? It was crazy. Just yesterday, I posted a podcast where, and this is certainly nothing nearly as traumatic as being abused as a young person, but I talked about something that I'd never talked about publicly, which is that I relapsed in late 2011. Oh, really? From alcohol? Yeah, from alcohol. And, you know, I'd been, it was in Hawaii, it was right after I'd had, I had DNF'd at Ultraman.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  Like, it was a year where I was, like, super fit and I was gunning to, like, do, like, be at my absolute peak athletically. Way more fit than anything I'd ever been previously, like, in 2009. The races that I talk about in my book, Finding Ultra, I was a completely different athlete. Like, I was on fire. Wow. And I was ready to just uncork, like, the performance of all time. And it didn't go well. Like, I just, you know, I just didn't, something was wrong and I was spitting up blood. Like, on the second day, I had to pull out of the race and just, I had all my eggs in that basket. Oh. And, and I don't think that I was fully, like, in touch with how devastated I was from that. And, and I hadn't been diligent in my recovery program.

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  I'd sort of been cruising, you know? And I'd been like, well, I'm working out and I'm eating well and like, you can, I had been sober for 13 years. And you start to get into this mindset of, like, well, I don't really need to go to AA. Like, I have it together. Like, I'm on to this thing now. 19 years you were sober. 13, I had been, yeah. And so, it just doesn't become as heightened as a priority as it is when you're a broken man and you come in and you're willing to do anything to get sober, which is where I was when I got sober. You start to just kind of, like, take your pedal off the gas a little bit. And after, you know, after a long period of kind of not being so focused on it and not making, like, attending to my sobriety, you know, a top priority.

• 52:27Rich Roll?

  You're a ticking time bomb, you know, before you're gonna pick up a drink. And so I won't recount the whole story because I just did it on my podcast, but essentially, you know, I picked up a drink, you know, and I got drunk. And I found myself doing it at an AA meeting that night. So it wasn't like I went out and crashed a car or like, you know, destroyed my, you know, it's like, I was able to nip it in the bud. That's good. But the point that I'm trying to make is that, you know, I've been open about this, like in AA and with my sober buddies and I share about it from the podium, like I'm very open about it, like in that forum, but not publicly, you know, and so. Why weren't you open about it? Because I was ashamed. Yeah.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  You know, because I was ashamed, especially as somebody who had written a book that told their sober story. Right. You know, and I'm supposed to be this person who, who has this problem figured out, to then admit that actually I'm a frail human who still suffers from the disease of alcoholism. Yeah. And, and doesn't do it perfectly, you know, and when you have like an audience or people that are looking to you for, you know, advice or inspiration or whatever, there's a certain burden that comes with that and expectation level. And, and I just got to a point where, you know, like you, like I thought, well, this isn't that big of a deal. Like I don't have to share everything about my life to everybody, but if my message

• 53:50Rich Roll?

  is, you know, be authentic, be willing to be vulnerable, have the, have, have the courage to like, you know, walk your talk, then it's not acceptable for me to not discuss this. Yeah. Plus, perhaps there's somebody out there who's in that same situation, who could like benefit or benefit from hearing my story or avoid falling into the trap that I fell into. So I felt compelled to share it. And I told the whole story and I just published it yesterday and I can tell you that hitting publish on that was the most terrifying thing ever. I bet. You know, I was like, well, we'll see what happens. Like, I was like, not looking forward to the comments on this one, you know? And how's the response?

• 54:35Rich Roll?

  How many listeners am I gonna lose? Yeah, yeah. Like, like, and literally yesterday, uh, I just, you know, I did it. I, I was up late. I hit publish. I went to sleep. And the next morning, I didn't even check my email. I didn't check. I was like, I had such a crazy emotional hangover from the whole thing. That I was like, I just gotta ride my bike. And I went out for like a four hour ride. I didn't go online at all. Like, I was, I think I was in part scared to like, see what the response would be. Um, finished my ride and I was like, alright, like, I feel better. Like, let's just like, see what's happening. And, you know, like yourself, I've never had more comments on a, on a post, you know, a billion tweets. I got like 200 emails yesterday.

• 55:20Rich Roll?

  Wow. Um, the response has been insane and incredibly, um, positive and just, you know, loving and compassionate. Um, with a lot of empathy. And like yourself, like people telling stories about, you know, like, there's a lot of people in recovery that listen to my show. So, you know, oh, you know, I relapsed, or, you know, I've been sober for a long time and I haven't been diligent. Hearing your story is gonna make me reboot my thing, cause I don't want that to happen to me. Or, you know, and it's weird because you could tell your story to someone else, like, yeah, share it. Because you'll be amazed at the response, but you, you don't know that fear. Like, when you're holding on to something that you're ashamed of, to like,

• 56:01Rich Roll?

  shine a, shine a light on it and expose it is terrifying, even when you know that's the solution to being able to release it, right? Yeah, of course. It's just interesting. You told that story and then this just happened to me yesterday, you know? And I, I don't mean to compare my little relapse to No, it's being abused in any way, but that was just something that I was holding on to that I was ashamed of. And I think Yeah, of course. You know, as human beings, we've all done stuff we're not proud of. And we all hold on to that and keep it private and we're afraid to tell people about it. But, you know, there is a lot of power in like, in, in, in bringing it out because, because, you know, in the same way that your sister could see, like, your behavior being driven by that episode that you were holding on to. I think we all have.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  You know, things like that in ourselves that become impediments to us growing into, you know, the best version of who we can be.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 56:53Rich Roll?

  So, anyway, man.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Thanks for sharing.

• 56:55Rich Roll?

  Thank you for doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get back on track now.

• 57:00Rich Roll?

  I want to talk about the book, but like while we're still kind of in the realm of talking about podcasting, I'm interested in, in, you know, what you think makes a great podcast guest.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  For me, I, you know, I get a lot of requests for people to come on and they have to inspire me. So if they're not inspiring me in like a huge way, and so I have got a lot of great guests that have already been on. And it's like, if you're not on that level or higher, or you haven't done something different or unique that inspires me, then it's probably not a great fit. It doesn't mean you're not a great person or have a message to share. I'm just looking for a specific type of person. And I also don't want people that have just done the rounds on every other podcast. It's like, unless they're incredible, you know, and I'll share someone with you and you share people with me. Um, if they're someone big or something like that, but if they're just doing every podcast, like I probably don't need you right now.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Like, let's wait until you're not doing every podcast because there's always a lot of overlap. And if they're gonna listen to my show or someone else's with you on there, then I don't want to compete with that.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Unless it's like Tim Ferriss who's doing everything and it's like they're a big name, then okay. So for me, they've got to be inspiring. They've got to, you know, I really want them to have a big audience already. Not because I want them to promote, although that's great, but because if they already have a big audience, it's just validating that they're inspiring the world already and they're already creating a ripple effect. So I want to introduce them to my audience now. Um, that's pretty much what I'm looking for, yeah.

• 58:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. Um, I mean, I share some of that. I'm a little bit different in that, um, in that, uh, I don't care so much about their audience. Sometimes for me, the most gratifying guests are the people that no one's ever heard of.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  That I've come across and I'm like, oh my God, this guy's amazing. Like, I need to help this person.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 58:51Rich Roll?

  Everybody needs to hear what this, there's something really cool about that.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  Um, and sometimes that, those guests don't get the most downloads because they're not the Tim Ferriss's or whatever, but I think there's something cool about that. And I think I would agree with you in the sense that, that, um, There's like a gut check that has to happen like you have to be excited about meeting them.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 59:11Rich Roll?

  And sometimes people come across my radar and they're doing amazing things, but for whatever reason, no fault of their own, like I don't emotionally connect with it. And I'm like, I don't think this is the right fit like, cause if I'm not excited about it, then it's not gonna be a great interview.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:25Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. You can't force it.

• 59:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  And another thing like if they're a big guest with a big audience, the reason I like that is because usually they don't open up in certain ways. Usually they are guarded or they are, they do have a perfect image or something. So I look at it as an opportunity like Tony Robbins to get him to share things he's never shared before.

• 59:46Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  And I want to be that guy who like opens them up. And so I look at it as like a challenge, like how can I be that space?

• 59:52Rich Roll?

  I wonder if like everyone goes in, they're like, with people that do so many interviews, like everyone's like, how am I gonna crack this guy?

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So even if they just say one thing different than they've ever said before, I'm like, that's a winner.

• 1:00:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, for me, it's, it's much less, and I've said this before, but it's like, it's much less about the information that's conveyed. Like if I can just get a connection, like if I can emotionally connect with this person so that they relax a little bit and, and can just be who they are. Like, that's more important to me.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Rich Roll?

  I think that trumps like making sure that the points are made.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:28Rich Roll?

  But it's sometimes it's hard, it's hard, the hardest interviews are the people that do the most number of interviews.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:33Rich Roll?

  Because they're so used to it and they have their talking points or whatever. So it's like, how are you gonna get beyond that? Right?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I had Simon Sinek on one time and he was awesome and he was giving these great answers, but they were just like almost too good. They were like too perfect. And I was like, okay, I gotta ask him some different questions. And so I started to get like real invulnerable with him. And I remember he, he always, he answered within like a half a second, everything and just got on a tangent and it was great. But I was like, okay, how can I get him to think? And I asked him a question where he's like paused for about 10 seconds and he was like,

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  And he didn't know how to respond. I was like, that's when I knew I was gonna get something great.

• 1:01:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's cool, man. All right, well, let's, uh, let's talk about the book, man.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  Pretty exciting stuff.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Very exciting.

• 1:01:17Rich Roll?

  School of Greatness.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  That's it, man.

• 1:01:18Rich Roll?

  The book version of the podcast, but so much more.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:22Rich Roll?

  Uh, it's been a long time coming. You were nice enough to send me, um, a galley copy and I'm very touched that, uh, that, that, um,

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  You're in the book, man.

• 1:01:31Rich Roll?

  In the book, yes.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Featured big time.

• 1:01:32Rich Roll?

  That's not why we're sitting here, but, uh, yeah, actually, you know, I was like, whoa. Like, I'm in this book a lot. Like, that's crazy. Like, cause we've been talking about this for a long time and, you know, you had told me like, oh, I wanna, you know, include your story in the book, but, um,

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  You didn't know that much.

• 1:01:46Rich Roll?

  I did.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Cause I was like fact checking with you on some things. I was like,

• 1:01:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Is this correct? This is correct, yeah.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  I'm very honored.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 1:01:53Rich Roll?

  That you would consider my story worthy enough for your book. So that means a lot to me, man. Thank you. I'm very touched by that. And I'm really excited, uh, about the book coming out. It's coming out October 27th.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:02:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, you've been, you know, doing your marketing trip for quite some time right now. So all those, uh, those hens are coming home to roost quite soon here. I mean, I'll post this right around the book date launch. So when people are listening to it, the book will be, will be just out, but, um, you know, before we get into kind of the details of what's in the book, I mean, what, what inspired you, you know, to write this book and what is the motivation behind it?

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  This has probably been like a 18 year dream line. I went to a Tony Robbins conference when I was 16. I think that was 18 years ago. Um, and I remember sitting there feeling so inspired. He had probably like 20 different speakers from like Donald Trump to Larry King Live to Jerry Rice to all these different high-power individuals, champions of life and business, come and speak. And I was just so inspired by the message. It was really like the first time I'd been exposed to some type of like inspiration like that at a conference, at an event. And I remember at one point, Tony walked down the stage, off the stage, down the aisle, and I was probably like halfway back in this huge stadium arena, halfway back on the floor.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  And he walked back and he stopped right next to me and like looked out. He didn't look at me, but he just stood next to me and set a point out into the audience. It was probably from me to you. And I remember just looking up at this giant man.

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  He's a cyborg.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  It was unbelievable. And I was just like, The energy he has right now, there's something to the energy where he's just creating inspiration out of me because of who he's being. And I didn't even know what he said, but just his energy was so powerful. I said, "One day, I want to become, I want to be able to speak in front of thousands of people like this and put off an energy like this to inspire people. And I want to write a book and do CDs at the time and, you know, do whatever I can to get my message out there." I didn't even know what my message was at 16. I was just like a nobody, trying to make like, you know, get a girlfriend. But, uh, I was like, "This is what I want to do. This is like my calling. That someday I'm going to figure out how to do. I don't know how to do it. I'm going to figure it out."

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And once I got done playing professional football-

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  Hold on one second though. How did you end up at a Tony Robbins conference at 16? Like, that's unusual.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  I was going to a boarding school in St. Louis and my mom was there with me. And my dad just said, "Hey, this, I see this event is happening in St. Louis." So he bought me and my mom tickets. And me and my mom went.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  And my dad, "Yeah, he just bought us tickets." Oh, here's the reason why. He saw that Dick, I think his name's Dick Vermeil. He's a coach for the St. Louis Rams who won a Super Bowl. He was speaking-

• 1:04:40Rich Roll?

  Right, right. But he was the Eagles coach.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  He was, but then he went to the Rams and won the Super Bowl in 2001, I believe it was, 2000 or something like that. And he was speaking and he said, "Hey, you should go." He sent me there to go watch this coach speak. And he got like VIP tickets to go meet the coach afterwards. So I met with the coach, but I was at a Tony Robbins thing. And, um, I never knew who Tony Robbins was, but I was just so inspired by him. And like, his message really connected with me at 16. And as a guy who had big dreams to play sports, so like college sports and professional sports, everything he was saying was helping me get to that goal. And I applied it over the next couple of years in high school and in college. I just like stuck with it, that message and with my dreams and like whatever he gave us. I was like doing the work. Um, because I was like, "Oh, if all these champions are

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  doing the same type of thinking and, and work and exercises, like, I want to do what they're doing." And so it just solidified, like Jerry Rice, these coaches, all these people were there. Donald Trump, like, yeah, I want what they have. And, um, you know, I've been like always into inspirational personal development work to for myself over the last fifteen years since then. And it's just been a powerful journey. So I, um, seven and a half years ago, when I got done playing arena football, I got the four hour work week as the only gift to Christmas from in two thousand seven going into two thousand eight. And I read this book in three days and it's really hard for me to finish any book. I probably read ten books cover to cover before that.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  I read this book in ten days and it opened up this possibility in my mind. I didn't even know it was possible to be an entrepreneur, to make money online, to build these businesses. I didn't know that was possible. But Tim wrote out like the path on how to make it happen. And so I said, I'm gonna figure this out. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna figure this out. And I was broke, sleeping on my sister's couch for a year and a half. Just engulfed in this information. And then that's when I started the research about online blogs and connected with Gary Vaynerchuk and all these other people from this book that I started to research. And after I got done finishing that book, it was literally probably New Year's Eve or something. I remember saying to myself, I had a cast on. I remember saying to myself, one day I'm gonna write a book like this

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  and inspires millions of people around the world the way this book inspired me and opened up a new possibility for my life. And I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it. I've become friends with Tim Ferriss, we've become really close. I said this to myself. I was like, we're to become great friends.

• 1:07:07Rich Roll?

  This is like almost Machiavellian.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna get in touch with him and figure out how to meet him, become friends with him. His agent, whoever the agent is of this book, I'm gonna meet him and he's gonna become my agent. And I'm gonna write a number one New York Times bestseller, the way this book is. And the years went by and I reached out to Tim many, many times and finally connected with him at a mastermind event. And then, you know, now we're good friends today. We've worked on a number of things together and he's a great friend. And I learned who his agent was for the four hour work week and for years, built up a relationship with him before I even knew I was interested in doing a book. But built up a friendship and relationship to the point where he approached me and said, I think it's time we do a book together now because where my brand was going.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Now we have a book deal and you know, by the time this comes out, you know, this week, we should find out if the trifecta comes true about the New York Times list.

• 1:08:04Rich Roll?

  So, so let's talk about the book, right? The School of Greatness.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:08Rich Roll?

  So what, what, what can we find in the book? By the way, just for the record, like I read the book, I love the book.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  And we were talking about this before the podcast as well, but it's a very, you know, solving that, that equation of how to create like an effective, you know, inspirational, you know, nonfiction, how to book is very difficult, right?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Rich Roll?

  It's like, when I look at it, I'm like, all right, well, what, what, what hasn't already been said in some other book? Like, what are you going to bring to it that is going to be new or fresh? And, you know, in some respects, there are no new ideas, but there are new perspectives on ideas. And I think why your book works is because it's about your journey through these ideas, right? So it's like, you put yourself in the seat where you're sitting right now as a podcaster and as somebody who's just looking to grow. You're vulnerable and open about like who you are and what your challenges have been. And you're like, here's are the people that have taught me and let's explore what their ideas are. And then you're able to put your spin on like how you can implement those ideas into

• 1:09:16Rich Roll?

  action through like some really like, you know, easy to understand and practical like tools and exercises that kind of are on the tail end of each chapter.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:09:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's tied together beautifully. So it's, it's like not too easy of a read, but it's not too difficult of a read either. Like it hits that tone of being like effective, instructional and informative without being like burdensome or like too fluffy either.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, you know, for me, the books that I really liked, that are my favorite books is one is The Four Hour Work Week and the other is The Alchemist. And so I wanted to make a blend of them both. I wanted, have you read The Alchemist before?

• 1:09:53Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  I wanted to be like, not really connected with me. It was probably the timing when I read it. And I was like, what if I could create a book that's like combines them both? Where Tim's is almost like a little too much resourceful for me. It's like so many resources at the end of every chapter and like links and places to go, which was great, uh, but it's almost too analytical where The Alchemist is too much of a story. It's all story based, right? So I was like, what if I could mesh those together and allow people to walk through the, the story and the journey of their life to see where they're at now? If it's working for them, what their biggest dreams and goals are, have they achieved them yet? If they haven't, here's the exercises on each stop along your journey on how to make them work.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  And uh, that's what I wanted to create. I wanted to create like the ultimate book for me, something that would be inspiring to me where I could get a lot out of it. If it's inspirational wise, but then proven exercises that'll help me get to that next level. And a lot of these exercises are things that I learned from the sports world. You know, I picked up all these different exercises from sports. And apply them to my life and business. It's what, these exercises what helped me sell a million dollar company, build multimillion dollar brands. If it wasn't for these exercises and this way of thinking, I wouldn't have been able to achieve that in a short amount of time and really two and a half years. After I got injured playing football and had no clue what I was doing, I was able to transition fairly quickly into building a business online. Without experience, without a degree in any of those things.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  And um, I'm just sharing with people exactly how to do it for themselves.

• 1:11:25Rich Roll?

  And what's amazing is that it's really informed by your experience of having all these guests on your podcast, which are really, that's kind of like the, the scaffolding upon which this book is built, which is all the amazing conversations you've had.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  I'm just, it's like me being the ultimate mentee and sharing the wisdom from all the best mentors in the world. And what I came up with was eight core principles of greatness. If you want to be great in any area of your life, if something's lacking or something's missing that you want to get an advantage in, there's really eight things that you need to be great at. And if you can master all eight of these principles, you're going to be a pretty freaking sweet person. You're going to be an amazing human being at whatever you want to achieve. If you can master these eight principles. And from all the interviews I did, I realized that these guests. Fall into these eight categories really well. Some better than others, some are masters of certain things and not masters of others. But if they put together all the eight things

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  that people do well, this would be these things. And so I share with you how to master it and then the exercises for getting to the next level.

• 1:12:26Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And I'm just looking at them now. So it's like, create a vision, right?

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, these are all very simple.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they're very simple. And again, they're not like, it's not like you invented the idea of like, creating a vision, right? But everybody has their perspective on that. So I look at that and I'm like, alright, well, this is kind of in the world of Danielle Laporte, right? Like, she's somebody who speaks to that. And I know you're friends with her. And then it's turn adversity into advantage. And I'm like, when I see that, I'm like, oh, Ryan Holiday, Stoicism. You know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of, you know, to be mined from that. Then the champion's mindset, you know, the hustle. It's like, okay, Gary Vee. Right? Like, master your body. I might have something to say about that.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  Practicing positive habits, building a winning team, and being of service, right? So those are kind of like the principles upon which the whole book, the book and kind of the...

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if you can follow those eight principles, you're pretty much at the top of your game. That's it. So if anyone's...

• 1:13:27Rich Roll?

  This is the only book that I need.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  That's the only book you need right now. That's it. Yeah. No, but I mean, you know, and there's always more you can go dive into. So this is really getting you started. And obviously, that's why I have the podcast, so we can dive in deeper with each topic and things like that. And you know, that's why you have your podcast to dive in deeper. But for me, this is something, it's a guide. You know, I call it a real world guide to living bigger, loving deeper, and leaving a legacy. And if that's something you want to do in your life, then this is the book.

• 1:13:54Rich Roll?

  Well, who doesn't want to do that?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:14:03Rich Roll?

  It's interesting, the subtitle of like Loving Deeper, you know what I mean? That's very much like, that's very you, you know what I mean? But that's not, that's not a phrase that you would typically see in a book of this nature that kind of falls in that category of like entrepreneurship and building a business.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the book is not about building a business specifically. It's not like I teach you how to build an online business. But if you follow these principles in your business, you will grow your business. And I give examples and things like that, but it's not a strict business book. So I had so many of my author friends tell me that the subtitle, you know, they're like, you need to change the subtitle, you need to be, talk about how it's going to be, you know, create financial freedom for you, make millions, like this and that. Because then people will pick it up. And I'm like, you know, Eric, because of the little rank higher in SEO and blah, blah, blah, and Amazon, and I'm like, that's just not what the book's about. It's not about making millions. Through doing it, you will make millions. If you're like fulfilling these principles, yes, but it's not teaching you, like here's

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  how to start an online brand and like run a business. It's not teaching that. So I'm like conflicted in some ways because all my author friends are like, it's going to flop, you know, the subtitle is not strong enough. And I'm like, but this is the essence of the book I want to write. And I think it's going to change people in such a powerful way that their life is going to be changed forever, as opposed to just making some money on the side.

• 1:15:27Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, I'm, I'm with you. I'm glad that you didn't change it. There's always that tension between, you know, the people that are saying, this is what works, especially in this like, you know, you know a lot more about internet marketing than, than I do or ever will. But like, when I look at it, I'm like, people will say, well, this is what works. You have to do it like this. And I look at it and I go, I'm never going to do that.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  Like, I just can't get into that spammy, clickbaity way of functioning. Like, I'm just, I don't care if it works. Like, it's not who I am and I'm not willing to do it. But there is that tension, like when you come up with a book title, like what's going to track, what's going to travel, you know, and you get into these, these, these conversations about it and it's all like kind of weird.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Rich Roll?

  Ultimately, the book just will stand on its own.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  That's the goal.

• 1:16:13Rich Roll?

  And maybe like in the first week or two, that might impact things. But if the book is good, then it will, it will, you know, do what it's meant to do, right? And you have to just kind of believe in the long-term view of it.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. So I believe in it.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, it's cool. I mean, you know, kind of talking about that internet marketing stuff. I mean, you're somebody who, you know, really lives transparently online. There's always that kind of relentless pressure like, okay, I gotta put a new podcast up and like, what's my Instagram today? Did I do a Snapchat? Like, by the way, we didn't Snapchat today.

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  Like, now there's Beam, you know, like, like,

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  It's insane.

• 1:16:52Rich Roll?

  It's this pressure of like, providing content, but when you're doing that, you're not present in what you're doing.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, it's hard to like, do both. And it's like, yeah, I want to share my experiences to the extent that, you know, whatever I'm experiencing could perhaps be, you know, helpful to somebody else. But I also need to recognize that that being present in whatever I'm doing and just being in my life is is more important than that.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Rich Roll?

  And finding that balance, like, I'll go on Tares where I'm like Snapchatting all the time. And then I'll burn out. I'm like, you know, I don't need to, like, I just need, I just want to be in my life right now. So.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Like, I'm going to Hawaii for three days tomorrow, and I'm committing to myself to not take my computer. And I'm committing to, a part of me wants to just leave my phone in the hotel and not use it at all. I may take it and just leave it on airplane mode and take photos, but not post anything then. And wait till I come back to post something, but just be more present and not be like, I need to post this now.

• 1:17:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a good challenge.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  So we'll see.

• 1:17:52Rich Roll?

  But that's gonna be tough. Especially when you're like, you know, a month and a half out from launching your book. And you're like, what's the, you know, what if something happens?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:18:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:18:03Rich Roll?

  But I mean, how do you do that on a daily basis? Like, kind of run that calculus and deciding like, you know, you know, when to share, when not to share, and creating boundaries around that. So you're just like maintaining your quality of life.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  For me, it's, it's really trying to be good in the morning and at night and try to shut down and give myself like time blocks of when I can use my phone or when I can post. I've also got a better team in place that's helping me post things for me, so I don't have to be doing it all the time. But there's certain things that I like to do, like Instagram and Snapchat, obviously, which is like eye control.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  So it's just about saying, okay, I'm only gonna look at it these times. And sometimes I'm good and sometimes I'm really bad. And I'll just sit there for hours scrolling on Instagram or whatever. So.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  It's a balance.

• 1:18:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I hear you, man. No, I'm always trying to, you know, find where that balance lies. So, anyway, we're gonna wrap it up here in a few minutes, but there's a couple of things that I want to talk to you about before I can let you go. And one thing is, you know, one of the ways that you always kind of end your podcast is by acknowledging somebody for, for what they do, or how their work, you know, impacts others, or what it means to you personally. And so I'm interested in, in how you came to that, and why you think acknowledging people in that way is important.

• 1:19:21Rich Roll?

  It's a beautiful thing to do, by the way.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Thank you, I appreciate it.

• 1:19:23Rich Roll?

  I wish I'd come up with that.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  I came to it, to be honest, from this workshop I did. We learned a lot about acknowledgement. You know, acknowledgement is a thing that we really, you know, we think about it, it's almost like the basis of everything we do, we want to be acknowledged for. Whether it's through our loved ones, we want to hug, we want to be acknowledged for the work we're doing. Our parents, when we're growing up, we want them to acknowledge us. It's why we work so hard a lot of times, is to get that recognition, or some type of acknowledgement, whether it's a comment, or whatever. And I feel like, you know, we, we don't get it enough, and we don't give it enough. And we wait to acknowledge people until they're not around, until they're dead, and then we come out and acknowledge them.

• 1:20:03Rich Roll?

  There's some crisis.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we wait until the end of their life, and they die, then everyone comes out and celebrates them when they're dead. Why don't we celebrate, create a funeral for everyone every single day? Where they can experience it when they're alive. What would life look like if we acknowledged people on a daily basis? It doesn't have to be this funeral type for our acknowledgement, but just like a short, powerful, intentional acknowledgement, to show people, say, "Hey, I see you, and I recognize the power inside of you, and I appreciate it. And here's my acknowledgement to you, for what I see." So I started doing it on my podcast. I had no clue what I would do, but it's interesting. Whenever I do it, it's interesting to see who can handle it and who can't handle it. Cause a lot of people don't know how to handle it.

• 1:20:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's what I'm interested in. Like it's very disarming, you know?

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  It's challenging to receive. Like I am, I have been known as the king of not being able to receive anything. And years ago, and for the last two years, I've just been practicing daily, like opening up and saying, okay, I'm receiving whatever people want to say about me. I'm not going to deflect it and say, oh, you know, it was nothing. You know, a lot of people deflect acknowledgement.

• 1:21:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cause it's not comfortable to, it's hard to receive help. It's hard to ask for help. It's hard to receive praise when it's heartfelt.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's like, it's vulnerable. It's very vulnerable to say it and receive it. That's why people do it when they're not around because they can say it and not feel like scared of whether to respond. So I started doing it and it's just been, um, you know, sometimes I feel like I can act and resonate with people and it means something, but other times I'm like, who knows? Like they don't really tell me.

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  Right. They're like, okay.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. They're like, oh.

• 1:21:42Rich Roll?

  I gotta go.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  So, uh, I just, I want to set the, I want to be a symbol for people. And I want to set an example and constantly be consistent with my word and acknowledging people. And the thing is, I'm also always acknowledging myself. This is something I never did. I never felt like I was good enough. Even if what I would achieve my dreams, my dreams, I would say, well, but I didn't do it as good as I could have or could have done something. Like I always doubted myself or put myself down in some way, even when I was at my top. And so I really practice it as an example to love myself deeper and acknowledge myself and not be so hard on myself, even when I mess up or when it doesn't go the way I want it to, or when I hurt someone or when I say the wrong thing. Like, you know what? I still get to acknowledge where I'm at in my life and all the good I am doing.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  And I get to acknowledge other people.

• 1:22:29Rich Roll?

  So you do, so you, you apply that, that acknowledgement to yourself.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  All the time because I'm like a recovering. Alcoholic in the sense of like I doubted myself and put myself down all the time like I'm really good at putting myself down. So I need to constantly do my daily AA for acknowledgement. And that's why I do it for other people and then I do it for myself. Because you know, our emotions is really to control us one way or another in a positive way or a negative way. And we have the choice on how we want to feel in every moment, no matter what happens to or for us. And acknowledging ourselves is like a way to heal and hug our heart. So that we're okay and we can move forward in a positive way as opposed to just beating our heart and stabbing it by saying, you know, I'm not good enough to myself.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  And that doesn't serve us or anyone else.

• 1:23:20Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  We might as well acknowledge the good we're doing, even though we're not perfect and we never will be.

• 1:23:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I love that. You know, I mean, I think that we all have more control over that story that we tell ourselves about who we are. And most of us walk around and we just accept it. Well, you know, this is how I feel about myself because this happened and this happened. And we isolate out like things that occurred and we apply all this meaning to them. And we ignore all these other things that have happened to ourselves as not being informative of whatever that narrative is and to like take control of that narrative and say, let me tell a new story. I'm going to tell this story now and I'm going to affirm that by acknowledging myself and repeating that on a daily basis to reprogram that, I think is an amazing practice to be in.

• 1:24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a meditation practice every day, you know?

• 1:24:04Rich Roll?

  So Louis, I acknowledge you for acknowledging others.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:24:09Rich Roll?

  I acknowledge you for acknowledging yourself.

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  I acknowledge you for being a big loving spirit who is very open.

• 1:24:20Rich Roll?

  And for being somebody who is committed to helping other people. For somebody who is willing to be vulnerable and as somebody who can challenge our status quo ideas of masculinity and carry a higher vibration as an example to other men out there. It's a beautiful thing that you're doing.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. I appreciate it and I receive it.

• 1:24:44Rich Roll?

  You receive it. Good. Good. And I am, I am humble in giving it to you.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:24:51Rich Roll?

  So of course, we're going to close it down with a version of how you close your podcast down, which is you always ask your guests what their definition of greatness is. And I think when I sat down with you the first time, I asked you, what is, of course, what is your definition of greatness, but I'm going to tweak that a little bit. And I want to ask you, how has your definition of greatness changed from episode one of the podcast to now?

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  You know, it's good because I, it evolves based on where my vision's at and based on where I'm at in life. And that's why I'm always interested to ask people what their definition is because it's different for everyone. You know, our definition of greatness when we were 10 was probably like to be great in school and to, you know, be good to my family or something, you know?

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  Be Dr. J.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's always evolves. And for me, from episode one, it's probably evolved in a way because I've just been evolving as a human and my emotions have been evolving and my, what mattered then doesn't matter as much in my life as what matters now.

• 1:25:56Rich Roll?

  Can you speak to that specifically?

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, my impact now, I think before, you know, I think before I was still, when I first started the podcast, I was still like just driven to, to achieve and to make money and to, you know, be successful. I still had a huge heart and wanted to give to people, but it was like more important to like be successful and things like that.

• 1:26:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel like it, it started off as like entrepreneurship and business and how to make money online and all of that. And there's been some spiritual growth where now it's, it's, it's much less about that than it is just about general personal development.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's more about, you know, being the person we were born to be. And that's not about, the focus isn't about making money and business and business. That's a part of it, you know, the making money is a part of life. And you want to be successful at that and I want to, you know, make millions and billions, you know? It's not that I don't want that, but my definition now, if I'm speaking right in this moment is to

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  be true to myself and maximizing my talents and gifts and giving them to the world. And then making the, the greatest amount of impact on the greatest amount of people in the world. That's my definition now.

• 1:27:10Rich Roll?

  That's a good definition.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Is maximizing my gifts to serve the world and then make the max amount of impact on the max amount of people.

• 1:27:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this is another reason why you have to have William McCaskill on your podcast. Cause he's, he's all about that, like, how are we channeling our resources, our energy, our dollars, so that we can have the biggest impact on the most number of people. And he's done some very interesting research that's counterintuitive on how to actually accomplish that.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Well, now I'm gonna have to have Mike. So make the intro.

• 1:27:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you provided one definition of greatness in the introduction of your book that I thought was beautiful. So I was, I'm just gonna close it down by reading it. It's by a guy called Matthew Arnold. I don't know who that is. Who is Matthew Arnold?

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Great question. I can't remember either now either.

• 1:27:53Rich Roll?

  He's just a guy with a great quote.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  I found the quote. I was like, this is perfect.

• 1:27:56Rich Roll?

  He said, greatness is a spiritual condition worthy to excite love, interest, and admiration. And the outward proof of possessing greatness is that we excite love, interest, and admiration. It's a beautiful thing, right?

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Powerful. Very.

• 1:28:10Rich Roll?

  Alright, man. Thanks for doing the podcast.

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me on, man. Appreciate it. Appreciate you.

• 1:28:14Rich Roll?

  Uh, so if you're digging on Lewis, he's super easy to find online. School of Greatness podcast on iTunes, LewisHowes.com, at Lewis Howes, pretty much everywhere else, and greatnessbook.com.

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:28:26Rich Roll?

  Uh, to learn more about the book. And of course, it's on sale on Amazon and everywhere else, right?

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  If you're in, if you're listening to this, the day this comes out, it should be in the octagon, the front and center of Barnes and Noble, if you walk into the store. So look for the book there.

• 1:28:38Rich Roll?

  I didn't know they called it the octagon.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  That's what I heard yesterday when they told me. They're like, you're gonna be featured in the octagon.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  It sounds so dramatic.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's like the circular centerpiece.

• 1:28:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's exciting. Well, based upon all the, uh, marketing seeds that you've planted and have been fertilizing for what seems like, you know, months and months and months now, I would imagine these are all gonna blossom, uh, on or around October 27th. So perhaps it will be impossible to avoid hearing or seeing Lewis by the time this comes out.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  That's the goal.

• 1:29:09Rich Roll?

  So, uh, I'm just further saturating the airwaves with her message.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  Perfect. Thank you.

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  And I'm happy to do it, man. I love you, buddy. I want only great things for you. I'm excited about your book and, uh, can't wait to see it become a great success.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Thank you, man. Appreciate it.

• 1:29:22Rich Roll?

  Alright, man. Peace.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  See ya.

• 1:29:24Rich Roll?

  Plants.

• 1:29:31Rich Roll?

  Hey, did you guys enjoy that? I think we did it. I thought it was pretty good. I hope you enjoyed it. Be sure to pick up a copy of Lewis's new book, The School of Greatness. You can find it basically everywhere books are sold. I have a feeling it's going to be unavoidable. You're going to be seeing Lewis and his book pretty much everywhere because that's the kind of guy Lewis is. He is very much going to be of the zeitgeist, I think, over the next couple of weeks. But why not go ahead and just use the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com to pick it up? And that way, we both win. Sound like a plan? I think it's a good plan. Don't forget to check out the show notes at richroll.com for additional articles, background, and other materials and resources related to today's conversation. Again, I put a ton of time into compiling these, so make a point of checking them out.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  Read up, learn more, take your knowledge base, your podcast experience beyond the earbuds. If you happen to live in LA or you are passing through here, it would mean a lot to me if you checked out a few of the businesses that I'm partnered with. How about having lunch, or breakfast, or dinner at Joy Cafe? It's our organic, plant-based, and gluten-free eatery in Westlake Village. You'll often find me eating there three or four days a week. So if you want to meet up with me, the best way to do that is not to send me an email and say, "Hey, can I have a phone call with you? Or can we go for a run?" Especially if I don't know you. But just drop by Joy Cafe. More likely than not, you will see me there around the lunch hour. I'm also partnered with The Karma Baker,

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  which is a vegan and gluten-free bakery, also in Westlake Village. They make amazing vegan, plant-based desserts that will delight your sweet tooth. And I got to say, it feels really great to serve the global community with this podcast. Like I said, I've just been traveling. I was just all over Europe. Everywhere I go, I run into people on the street who are podcast fans. It's amazing. It is such an amazing feeling to just randomly bump into people who are impacted and affected by the message that I'm putting out there. It feels great. But you know what's also great? Making sure that you serve your local community. And that's what my involvement in these businesses is all about. And I do that by trying to... To help facilitate these businesses with food that's consistent with my values.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  So how about that, right? For all your plant power needs, go to richroll.com. We got our new cookbook, The Plant Power Way. It's also very much a lifestyle guide, as well as finding ultra copies of both of those books that we will personally sign for you. You can get those through my website. We have Julie's guided meditation program. We have 100% organic cotton garments. We have nutrition products. We have tech tees. We have sticker packs. We have fine art prints. We've got all kinds of cool stuff that is oriented and designed to help you take your health and your life to the next level. Keep sending in your questions for future Q and A podcasts to [email protected]. What else can I tell you? We've got a couple of online courses at mindbodygreen.com, one on plant-based nutrition, the other on goal-setting. Go to mindbodygreen.com and click on video courses.

• 1:32:28Rich Roll?

  Tons of information there about those. Very affordably priced, multiple hours of streaming video content, online community. They're really great courses and very, very affordably priced, and I'm really proud of them. So, thank you for supporting the show by telling a friend, sharing it on social media, all that good stuff. Of course, thank you for using the Amazon banner at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. Got some great episodes coming up, amazing interviews with some really extraordinary people, so keep tuning in and keep spreading the word, guys. Thanks so much, and thank you for taking this journey with me, and I'll see you guys back here in a couple of days. Peace. Thanks.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  You