Be a Better Leader, the Human Paradox, and the Folly of a Plan — with Simon Sinek

The Dawg is back! Scott opens with what he’s been up to the past month and shares some exciting news from Prof G Media. We’re then joined by Simon Sinek, an international speaker and best-selling author of the books “Start With Why,” “The Infinite Game,” and “Find Your Why.” Simon discusses all things leadership, mentorship, and the struggles men face in building meaningful relationships. We also get into Simon’s personal life, including his career journey, the demons he wrestles with, and his hacks for mastering the art of storytelling. @simonsinek. Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Buy "The Algebra of Wealth," out now. Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard? But not the pipeline. That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard Confessions.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. See revenue, not just reach. LinkedIn delivers the highest return on ad spend of major ad networks. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:56Scott Galloway?

  Episode 315. 315 is the area code covering the north central area of New York State in 1915. The iconic Contour Coca-Cola bottle was patented. True story, I watched a documentary on Coke can the other night and I've decided that from this point forward, I'll do a little blow before I watch anything. That's right, my new viewing partner, White Girl Interrupted. Go, go, go!

• 1:27Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 315th episode of the Prop G Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Simon Sinek, an international speaker and bestselling author of the books Start With Why, The Infinite Game, and Find Your Why. I've become friends with Simon. He's one of my like speaking thought leaders slash, I don't know, friends, if you will. I met Simon or spent some time with him at Summit at Sea, which I went on, I guess it was more than a year ago now. And I had one of those moments with him that I will remember for the rest of my life. He was in London and we were eating at Granger's, which is lovely, which is lovely. And when I'm out in London, it's usually twice a day, sometimes as much as five, sometimes as little as zero. Someone will come up to me and say something nice.

• 2:11Scott Galloway?

  And someone locked eyes on me, came over and I'm like, here it comes. And they came up and said, your work is just so meaningful. Thank you so much. And I said, that's really nice of you. And he shook Simon's hand and kind of laughed, but he meant it for Simon, not for me. And it was one of those moments where I realized what I'm. Fucking narcissist I am. Anyway, Simon, and it happened again during the same lunch for Simon. He has a huge following and obviously his content really resonates with people. All right, what's happening? I'm back from the long holiday. I take most of August off. I got a little distracted and that is my podcast partner on the other, I have another podcast, if you didn't know, called Pivot. And it's with this little lady named Kara Swisher and

• 2:53Scott Galloway?

  we were invited to the Democratic National Convention. So got my ass to Chicago, interrupted my holiday, only to find out my security clearance had not been cleared. I mean, they let in, what's that guy's name? Charlie Kirk? They let in like every Joey Bag of Donuts influencer in the world. It's like if you had, I don't know, over 800 followers on Instagram, they let you in. But I found out when I landed there that my badge, my security clearance had not been approved. So I immediately took to, I don't know, whatever it was, some social to bitch about it. And the conjecture was, why are you not being allowed into the United Arena? And I started going over my history. I have never been arrested. Release the dog. I was held up at, I was imprisoned at the Nobu, Chicago, waiting to get into the DNC.

• 3:37Scott Galloway?

  Generally, I found the DNC, I thought it was very well orchestrated. Too long, too long. It should be three days, not four days. Generally, like a great vibe. I went to the one in 1996. I've always been a bit of a political junkie. And I went knowing nobody. And I met this guy and we ended up sharing a room so we could, I was so broke, and he was broke too, and we were both there, total tourists. And I think we lied about our names to get into a bunch of parties. I got to see Al Gore dance at one of the parties. That was kind of the highlight. Anyways, but I was at the Democratic Convention, what was it? I guess that was 28 years ago, when Clinton was renominated for his second term. I spent time in New York. By the way, New York's on fire. It's just on fire. I don't care what anyone says. I think New York right now is in a golden age. That's about it.

• 4:21Scott Galloway?

  I mostly just hung out. Oh, I went to Nantucket. That was wonderful. Anyone who's been there, it's basically a sandbar in the middle of the Atlantic. It's absolutely gorgeous. Thing I love about it is my kids can, can roam free and get into trouble. Although, it's such a bummer. They keep finding all these great whites everywhere around there. So I'm just a total mess when my kids go into the water. And then I ended with a, I did a speaking gig in Brazil. Oh my God. Beef. Beautiful people.

• 4:49Scott Galloway?

  And what I think is arguably the best hotel in the world right now, the Rosewood Sao Paulo. What is not to like about Brazil? Seriously? I mean, it's just such an amazing, I think it's probably my favorite place to go. Is that true? Is it my favorite place to go? Yeah, that's outside of the US. Absolutely love it there. And I went to the XP conference, which had 50,000 people. It made me want to buy stock in Brazil or buy, I don't know, the ETF on the Bolsa or whatever. I think it's such an impressive culture and people work hard and love to, love to play hard. The people and the dress there, I was especially impressed with the dress. Now granted, I saw a pretty limited slice between the Rosewood and the Soho House in Sao Paulo, but it really is an impressive culture and had a wonderful time there.

• 5:32Scott Galloway?

  Just so fucking far. Is there anything, is there anything you can do about that Brazil? Just a little too far. And speaking of which, on the 11 hour flight yesterday, which leaves at 4pm, which makes no fucking sense, I totally loaded up on movies. I watched The League or The Syndicate of Ungentlemanly Warfare, which is a Guy Ritchie film. I enjoy his films because they're so beautiful and he has beautiful men and beautiful clothes. And then I watched, oh my God, Saltburn. Jesus Christ, I had to stop it because it was just like too much for me. It was like a little too much for the dog to handle. I just, I just kind of put my head in between the pillows and was like, Calgon, take me to a park with a bunch of tennis balls. Anyways, an outstanding, would I call it outstanding?

• 6:15Scott Galloway?

  Great, hovering between great and outstanding, but Jesus Christ, that shits a lot. And a real twist at the end, kind of like a crime game level twist that I did not see coming. I did not see coming. I can usually guess everything that's happening in the movie. I'm the kind of jerk that in the movie leans over to my partner and says, oh, you know, the butler did it or whatever. But yeah, I did not see that one coming. And then I watched Napoleon, Napoleon, because I like war films. I thought it was pretty interesting. I did not realize that Napoleon was so obsessed with Josephine. I thought it was interesting. I would not want to live in France in late 19th century. It seemed like a pretty violent place where, you know, everybody would have their time in the sun and then they cut their heads off. But I love warfare. I'm interested in war history.

• 7:00Scott Galloway?

  Napoleon's Bonaparte, Napoleon's Waterloo, if you will, or him venturing into Russia, started with 400,000 troops, returned with 40,000, was exiled once, then came back. And his troop stream embraced him and then exiled twice. I just thought it was, I thought it was fascinating. Was it a great film? No, Ridley Scott is just fun to watch because he gets so much such big budgets and the cinematography was so incredible. And Joaquin Phoenix is obviously a fantastic character. Anyways, those are my, those are my three films. So in order, Saltburn, I would definitely see, but brace yourself. Napoleon, if you like war history and the League of Ungentlemanly Warfare, I'd say, I'd say pass or wait till it's on Netflix or it's already on Netflix. I just thought it was just okay. All right. Enough about our travels.

• 7:44Scott Galloway?

  We have some news to share here at Prop G. Starting next week, we are launching another podcast called Raging Moderates. It's a Prop G podcast co-hosted with our favorite political gangster and rising star, Jessica Tarlov. If you don't know Jessica, she is a co-host on The Five, Fox's weeknight news program and plays a key role in special coverage for the networks. Everything's so polarizing. I think of myself as kind of, I don't know, squarely in the middle. And I love the term raging moderates. I said, leading up to the election and if it works, maybe after, let's try and explore all views of this using data. Essentially for business reasons, we should not be doing politics because you just turn off people. Advertisers don't like it, but I can't help it. I'm interested in it. I think it touches on everything, society, technology,

• 8:29Scott Galloway?

  the economy. And I think it's, if you want to understand America, if you want to understand our economy, you need to have some basic rooting in politics. Plus, I just think it'll be fun. Anyways, so with that, we hope you enjoy Raging Moderates. Love that title. Love that. I came up with that. I came up with that. A weekly podcast from the Prop G universe. New episodes will be right here on the feed every Tuesday. To Resist Is Futile. We're fucking AOL in the 90s. You stick your hand into a cereal box and you're gonna get the dog.

• 9:04Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back for our conversation with Simon Sinek.

• 9:12Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from NetSuite. They say every day your business is late to AI, you might fall two days behind. So how do you keep up with the competition when they're only moving faster? Enter NetSuite Next. You probably know NetSuite, the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all your data. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth, trusted by over 44,000 customers. NetSuite Next is the next big leap in how business gets done. Because AI is built into everything you do. It automatically surfaces customer insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have questions about anything, you can ask, just like you're having a conversation with a colleague.

• 9:56Scott Galloway?

  NetSuite is customized for a wide range of industries, so it supports the way your business truly works. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/profg. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/profg. netsuite.com/profg.

• 10:29Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Upwork. Trying to scale your business? At some point, you're probably going to hit a point where you need some help. Sometimes the best way to break through that is bringing in the right talent at the right time. Upwork can help. Upwork is a one-stop platform where you can find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across more than 125 categories. Whether you need specialized skills for a single project or extra support to keep up with demand, it's easy to connect with experienced professionals, review their work, and find the right fit. You can move faster without taking on the commitment of full-time hires. And for businesses that need the very best talent, Upwork Business Plus provides access to the top 1% of freelancers on the platform. AI-powered matching connects you with qualified candidates in under six hours, cutting down the time spent searching.

• 11:13Scott Galloway?

  Upwork also takes care of contracts, payments, and other administrative tasks, so you can spend less time managing logistics and more time focused on what's next. Visit upwork.com/profg right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com/profg to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com/profg. upwork.com/profg.

• 11:40Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Vanta. As AI adoption grows, so does your company's security risks and requirements. New frameworks, audits, and vendors keep piling on, but your team isn't getting any bigger. Most compliance tools promise automation, but you're really stuck doing all the work by hand, chasing screenshots, validating controls, and playing catch-up when audit season comes around again. Vanta works differently. The regentic trust platform is built to scale with you, not slow you down. With over 1,400 automated tests across 400-plus integrations, Vanta collects evidence and monitors your controls year-round, cutting your audit prep by 82%. Plus, you can access the Vanta agent everywhere you work, whether your team is in Vanta every day or living in tools including Claude or Cursor. Want proof?

• 12:25Scott Galloway?

  Over 16,000 fast-growing companies like Ramp, Ryder, and Harvey save time and resources while scaling fast with Vanta. Learn more at vanta.com/profg and get $1,000 off. That's spelled V-A-N-T-A dot com slash prof G for $1,000 off.

• 12:57Scott Galloway?

  Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Simon Sinek, an international speaker and bestselling author of the books Start With Why, The Infinite Game, and Find Your Why. Simon, where does this podcast find you?

• 13:10Speaker 04

  I am back home in Los Angeles.

• 13:12Scott Galloway?

  So, let's bust right into it. You describe yourself as an unshakable optimist, and I'm a naturally pessimistic person. So, I'm curious, how do you maintain your optimism, especially in challenging times? And what advice would you give to someone who tends to be, like myself, kind of see the glass as half-empty, if you will?

• 13:32Speaker 04

  So optimism doesn't mean I'm naive nor blind. And it's not blind positivity. It's not looking at a broken world and be like, everything's fine. That's not how I am. I'm quite cynical a lot of the time, but I generally believe that the world tends toward good. And I believe that even if we're in darkness, that if we come together and work together, we will get through this and we will come out better than we went in. So it's this undying belief that there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

• 13:58Scott Galloway?

  And you're sort of known as the leadership guy or the why guy, I guess. Break down for you, what is the definition or the key to effective leadership?

• 14:07Speaker 04

  I think leadership is an incredibly misunderstood subject. Like, I shouldn't really have to write books about it, you know? I visited rural Kenya recently and met some people who we would describe as poor. And one of them, one of the mamas, she organized a women's empowerment group where they sort of help each other out. And she was telling us how she does it and how she overcomes some of the challenges. And literally, she was telling me stuff that I've written about. In other words, she's a brilliant natural leader and she doesn't do it out of some sort of philosophical construct. She does it because it's practical and it works. And if people are seen and heard and taken care of and feel like they can trust each other, they'll take risks, they'll open up, they help each other.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  For me, leadership is the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise. And what we can do when we're in a position of leadership, whether it's formal or informal, rank does not mean that you're a leader, it just means you have authority. But if you're in a position of formal or informal leadership, that you look to the left and look to the right and say, what can I do to support?

• 15:11Scott Galloway?

  You've often talked about the distinction between natural born leaders and leadership developed as a skill. And you've said that you think it can be developed. If someone is young and thinks, I want to have, develop that, those leadership skills, what are some exercises for doing that?

• 15:24Speaker 04

  I mean, first of all, I don't believe leaders are born. I think that some people have an education when they're younger, they have a coach, they have a parent, they have a guardian, somebody in their life, a teacher, who does something right, they model themselves after that person, and they seem to learn it younger. Or they have some trials and tribulations and they learn to overcome and rely on other people, whatever it is. But, you know, even some of the great leaders that we admire, if you look back, whether it's Steve Jobs or Mahatma Gandhi, like, you see that they were learning, and they didn't get it right a lot of the time, especially when they were younger, they learned those skills. Young people, you know, for me, fundamentally, the single best thing a young person can do is really learn to be a friend.

• 16:06Speaker 04

  Learn to put away a device and learn how to engage with another human being. Learn how to be there for someone, learn how to accept help when it's offered, learn how to ask for help. And all of these sort of pretty fundamental things about adolescence. You know, when we're very, very young, the only thing we want or need is the approval of our parents. You know, "Look daddy, look what I made, watch me jump over the step", you know, and then we give them positive reinforcement, all that serotonin flows and it feels really good. And literally, nobody else matters except mom and dad's approval. That's it. When we reach adolescence and all the hormones start flowing, we make this change, this conversion, where we now crave the approval of our friends and our peers.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  Very stressful for us, very frustrating for our parents who are... They're watching us change. Really essential for a human being to learn to acculturate for the wider group outside of their immediate family. And so, it should be natural that we learn to ask for help from friends and learn to give help to our friends. So, you know, to be a great leader, learn friendship.

• 17:11Scott Galloway?

  You've equated it to being a parent, that is leadership. What did you mean by that?

• 17:15Speaker 04

  Well, you don't get to choose your kids, but you love your kids and you want to raise them to be the best that they can be. You don't often get to choose your team if you're promoted into a position of leadership, but you still get to celebrate them and try your best to help raise them to be the best that they can be. And there are a lot of similarities and a lot of things that you can learn about leadership, you can learn from parenting books. For example, affirming a child's feelings. You know, "Dad, I'm sad." No, you're not. It's fine. It's good. What do you have to be sad about? Your life is great. That's bad parenting. You want to affirm the kid's feelings. Same at work, you know? To talk people out of their feelings makes them feel unseen and unheard. Good leadership overlaps a lot with good parenting

• 18:00Speaker 04

  because it's interaction with other human beings, working to see them build confidence and be the best that they can be. And sometimes we have to be patient to let them try again.

• 18:09Scott Galloway?

  What do you think the biggest mistake that quote-unquote "leaders" or "managers" make?

• 18:13Speaker 04

  I mean, you talk about management versus leaders. Nobody wakes up in the morning to be managed. Nobody says, "I'd like to be managed, please." But we would all like to be led. And I think what you're doing is highlighting the problem. A lot of leaders act like managers. You can manage a process. You can manage a company. But you can't manage people. You can lead people. And I think when we start managing people as if they are a process, things start to break down. And I think another very, very, very common mistake that newly minted leaders make is they believe that their intelligence or capacity or their ability to give answers to every question is what gives them their credibility to lead. And so you'll see a lot of leaders lying, hiding, and faking. They won't admit if they don't know something.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  They won't say, "I don't know." They won't ask for help because they fear that undermines their credibility, which is completely false.

• 19:04Scott Galloway?

  We get a lot of questions about mentorship. So I'll turn the question to you. What advice would you give someone who's looking for a mentor? How do they go about finding a mentor?

• 19:13Speaker 04

  So when my career was just sort of getting going, I was introduced to this guy named Ron Bruder. Ron, a very, very accomplished entrepreneur, really successful. And he was charming and lovely and super helpful and wonderful in our meeting. And, you know, about a week or two later, I called Ron, who's a very busy man, and he took my call. And a few weeks later, I called him again. I needed some advice. And he took my call again. And at some point, we went out for lunch. And eventually, the sort of mentor-mentee relationship evolved. And I thought of him as my mentor. And I remember, we became quite close. And I remember I was leaving his house one day, and I used the M-word for the first time. And I put my arm around him as I was saying goodbye.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  And I said, "You know, Ron, I'm glad you're my mentor." And he said something back I didn't expect. He said, "And I'm glad you're mine." And this is what I think great mentor relationships are, which is it's both of us are mentors and both of us are mentees. Somebody who's had more experience is still learning about the world from somebody who's asking for help. However, I think they do evolve like friendships. I don't think you can go up to some random person and say, "Will you be my mentor?", just as you can't go up to some random person on the street and say, "Will you be my friend?". It's a relationship. And for me, the definition of a mentor is someone who always has time for you. And you can't, it can't be one-sided. You can't simply, just because someone's accomplished and you're not, you can't just go up to them and think they're an asshole because they don't want to mentor you,

• 20:41Speaker 04

  just like you can't think someone's an asshole because they don't want to be your friend. It's a relationship, and there's a lot of sacrifice that comes with it. What I love about mentorship is a mentor is not a champion. I think people mistake them. Like, in a company, you know, you can have champions who can go to bat for you and put in a good word for you, can get that promotion. And the best mentors are not in your chain of command. They're either outside of your department, or even better, outside of the company. And the only thing they care about is you and your growth. And there's nothing they can do to interact, intervene. It's a very pure relationship, where you both learn, you both give, and you show up for each other.

• 21:18Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I've had a, I mean, I really have had a lot of mentors, but I've never ever asked anyone to be my mentor. I've asked for help, or I've said, can we grab coffee? And like you said, the relationship, the relationship evolves. Talk about the tension between self-actualization and putting a group's needs first. You write a lot about this. Does that tie into what you've spoken about regarding leadership?

• 21:42Speaker 04

  I mean, you're hitting a nerve for me. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that's, you know, self-actualization's at the top. Maslow made a bit of a mistake. And which is, if you look at the hierarchy of needs, at the bottom, the most basic need, he articulates as food and shelter. And the third rung up is relationships.

• 22:09Speaker 04

  Now, I've never heard of anybody dying by suicide because they were hungry. I've heard of people dying by suicide because they were lonely. In other words, it seems to be inconsistent with reality that food and shelter would come number one, but not entirely. Basically, being a human is a paradox. Every moment of every single day, you and I are both individuals, we're ourselves, but we're also members of groups. We're members of teams, churches, families, whatever it is. And we are confronted with little and big decisions on a regular basis. Do I put myself first at the sacrifice of one of the groups? Or do I put the group first at the sacrifice of myself? And people debate this. You always put yourself first because you can't help the group unless

• 22:51Speaker 04

  you're healthy. You always put the group first because they won't be there for you unless you take care of them. And the answer is you're both right and you're both wrong. It's a paradox, and it's difficult, and it's messy. And so Maslow only considered us as individuals. As individuals, if we lived like great white sharks, 100% correct, number one would be food and shelter. But as members of groups, it's different, and it's more, and there's new ones. And so it's this constant battle between the two. And the thought of living an entire life to get to the top of a pyramid called self-actualization, where we look down at all the unactualized people, seems antisocial. Versus shared actualization, which is raising the team, raising the company,

• 23:33Speaker 04

  raising the society, raising the nation. Like, that to me, it seems more pro-social. And so- Good leaders, I think, are doing that. They recognize the paradox. They struggle with the paradox. But at the same time, they work tirelessly to bring to bring the group that we all rise together to shared actualization, that we all are working to something bigger than ourselves.

• 23:59Scott Galloway?

  I saw you on the Diary of a CEO podcast and you you spoke about people struggling to make friends. Can you say more about why you think modern society makes it so difficult for people to develop deep, meaningful relationships?

• 24:11Speaker 04

  I mean, there's a host of reasons. No one reason is the reason. I mean, like, it's it's easy to blame cell phones and social media. And they definitely play a role, and I think they definitely exaggerate it. I don't think they're the sole cause. Parenting is a big part of it as well. I mean, you and I have gone to restaurants and you look over to the table next door and the parents have slapped an iPhone or an iPad in front of their little children because they don't want noisy kids at dinner. They could have brought colored pencils. And so parenting is a large part of it as well. You you see this in education reform. You talk to teachers or superintendents. They're all in favor of education reform. Even the students are up for it. It's the parents who are often the most resistant. Because I want you to reform education.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  I want, but just don't experiment on my kids. Cell phones are the same. Like, schools want to get rid of them. It's the parents who put pressure to say, absolutely not. You may not. So I think it's dramatically exaggerated by the devices. But I I also think it's it's it's it's it's the whole thing. It's it's that our our society, and this goes back a few decades, we've over indexed on rugged individualism, right? Where it's all about you, your strengths, and and we don't value as much team celebration, team effort, like, we did this, not I did this. Did you ever, I don't know if you ever saw Elizabeth Gilbert's TED Talk.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  But it was magical and it was hugely helpful to me. She talks about the concept of genius. And then the pre Renaissance, a genius was a daemon, a spirit that lived in the walls. And if you did something great, people would say of you, you had your genius, your genius was with you. So you couldn't take full credit for your accomplishments. And if you failed, people would say, oh, I'm sorry, I guess your genius wasn't with you. And so you couldn't take full credit, but you never had to sort of like beat yourself up if it didn't go so well either. But at some point in the Renaissance, having your genius, genius became being the genius. And now if you accomplish something great, people said of you, you are a genius. And now you're labeled and straddled with that stress for the rest of your life.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  And the fear of not being the genius anymore becomes part of the identity, which I think is part of the failure. But I think what we've done is it's all part of the package of this over indexing and this rugged individualism, especially in America, where we've heroized CEOs and we've heroized these individuals who none of them accomplished their stuff by themselves, where, but we don't celebrate the team, the group as much. So I think it's societal. I think it's, I think it's part of one of, one of the unfortunate side effects of Jack Welch and sort of Milton Friedman economics of the eighties and nineties, which we're trying to, you know, undo over the course of these years.

• 27:01Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I think it's also a, not uniquely American phenomenon, but American phenomenon. And that is, we like to think we live in a meritocracy and every, anyone can be anything. And that's a very nice aspirational bumper sticker. But if you believe that, the dark side of that is, well, if it's truly a meritocracy and anyone could do anything, then if you don't end up wealthy and in a position of influence, you fucked up. I mean, I know you know this and I know this, a lot of our success is not our fault. At the same time, when we screw up, a lot of that is not your fault. But it feels very American to put pressure on people that if you don't end up in a certain position, it's on you, brother.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  I completely agree. I mean, I've always tried to live, I wouldn't, you know, I've tried to live with the formula, the notion that success is the zero sum of effort, talent, and luck, you know? And if you, and you want to get, keep those things somewhat, they're imperfect and they sort of go like this, but you know, at some point, they, they lead to one. So for example, if you win the lottery, no effort, no, no talent, pure luck, not stable. If you work really, really hard, but you've got no talent, you had no luck, you're not going to succeed either. And it's just really frustrating. And if you have talent that you don't capitalize on, also, again, and so I think you and I both

• 28:26Speaker 04

  recognize that we've tried to steer in our, our careers in a direction where we're more likely to do better than not. Like, if I'm really good at math, I should probably point myself in a direction where math is needed. And if I'm, you know, not, maybe not be a football player if I have no athletic ability, no matter what my dreams are, you know? So we try and point ourselves, we have an unfair advantage because of our natural gifts, work hard and, and hope that things work out, you know? You cross your fingers a little bit, and, and it happens. I'm not the most disciplined person in the world. I have seriously bad ADHD, which means I struggle to read books. People think I'm really well-read. I'm not. I've written more books than I've read.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  And, and, and yet I found ways to navigate these things rather than, rather than make them bowls and chains.

• 29:16Scott Galloway?

  My sense is you also have a pretty authentic voice. But it's not easy to manage. I've mostly been able to screen out feedback from social media, mostly. But some of it gets so angry and so vile sometimes, it's difficult to screen out. What do you do to manage and try and maintain that authenticity without? You know, getting upset all the time at all the shit we get online.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, I work very hard not to be political. Like, I don't give to candidates. I don't endorse candidates. I won't go to fundraisers. I believe in bipartisanship, so I've spoken at Republican congressional offsites. I've spoken to Democratic congressional offsites. And I give them the same message because I want, I want unity. So if I, if I preach bipartisanship and picked a side publicly, then I'd be full of it. So one part is, is, is I believe that the work that we do is bigger than politics. And so I, I try and play at that level. And who I vote for is my business. Registered independent. And I also, in terms of like, because the overwhelming pressure, especially when anything happens socially, the overwhelming pressure from friends and fans alike to weigh in.

• 30:24Speaker 04

  It is sometimes, well, high stress, high pressure. My rule has always been that I will, that I will only say something publicly if I believe that I can be additive. And if it takes me a week to come up with something that's additive, then I'm gonna wait a week. I, and it's very hard to resist the pressure, but I don't want to simply add to noise simply because a, a certain base wants me to join their side. My rule is it has to be additive. It has to be additive. And by the way, sometimes I have nothing to say that's additive. And so I, I will sometimes be conspicuously quiet. I, I only want to contribute, not just, not just virtue signal.

• 31:09Scott Galloway?

  It's funny, I actually thought about you because, you know, in an unusual context, when, when all these videos emerged of J D Vance saying that the world is being run by these lonely, hateful people without children who have cats.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  I'm one of them.

• 31:23Scott Galloway?

  I thought of you. I thought, Simon has never been married. He doesn't have kids. Uh, I know you really value your relationship with your nieces and nephews. And I, my, my sense of you is you have a lot of friends and a good support network.

• 31:36Scott Galloway?

  Do you get lonely? Do you feel, do you feel like you're judged sometimes for not going the traditional route in terms of relationships and kids?

• 31:43Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. Um, so those are two different questions. I'll deal with the second one first. So I have a friend who was in a very, very dysfunctional 16-year relationship.

• 31:57Speaker 04

  He had, it was just chaotic and dysfunctional. And she's been out of it for a few years, but she'll freely admit that she probably should have been in it for a year. And she always felt that she could fix him and save him. I don't know what it was, 16 years of a committed monogamous relationship. I've never been married. My longest relationship was three years. And the world judges me. When I go on dates, like women will say to me, what's wrong with you? Some of my friendships are better and closer and more loving than a lot of marriages or monogamous relationships. And certainly, the life that I live and the friends that I have are better than that relationship. But why is it that society says that she's healthier and I'm unhealthy?

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Or there's, she's correct and I'm, there's something wrong with me. You know, when people say, why haven't you been married? I might say, isn't it obvious? I haven't met the right person yet. Like, isn't that obvious? You know, for whatever reasons, I think we, we're starting, we're in a time now where people are becoming more open to different types of relationships, right? That people can be in union without a marriage, raise a family without the marriage. And society, for the most part, says, so long as you're good parents and so long as you're doing right by each other and the kids, have at it, you know? You don't necessarily need the religious or the legal document to, to, to have the family. And society is more open to that than, than it used to be.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  And so I'm hoping that society starts to recognize that having fulfilling friendships, having fulfilling relationships. And by the way, many people would say that the only difference between a close friendship and a marriage is you can have sex with your spouse. But, you know, it turns out you can do that with friends too. You know, it's like, you, you can be very fulfilled. So I think you're right. I, I absolutely have been judged my whole life. And the older I get, the judgment is even harsher. And I, and, and yes, like any human being, I get lonely. I get lonely, people in relationships get lonely. But yes, of course I get lonely. But this is why I love my niece and nephew so much is they, because I don't have my own kids, they have a little bit of my DNA.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  And I get to, I get to give love to these aspiring magical little kids, not so little anymore. And I get to impart everything that I've learned and who I am in a way that a parent can't. You know, I can get away with stuff as an uncle that a parent can't, which I know contributes to their lives.

• 34:26Speaker 04

  I love that, and they're both at camp right now and I miss them desperately. You know this. You know this. When you had kids, it profoundly changed everything about the way you viewed your life. And I see how you bring your son with you. I've just been watching your Instagram and how you bring your son on your business trips and you bring your son to games and, you know, you're trying to give him the craziest experiences that he can have. And what an amazing thing that, like, it's, it's, it's, it's an amazing thing to live an amazing life. It's even more amazing to share it. And define amazing however you want, but to go on an adventure with a person, I find vastly more fulfilling than going on adventure alone.

• 35:06Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  The new LinkedIn Hiring Pro can't undo your last hire. The human postponer. They were the master of one phrase. I'll circle back on that. But three months later, you were the one doing all their work and wondering how big that circle is.

• 35:23Speaker 05

  But LinkedIn Hiring Pro can take the hiring load off your plate by automating the hiring busy work from the initial job post to scheduling interviews. Hire right the first time with LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Post a free job today at LinkedIn.com/quality.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies. 18 plus.

• 36:06Scott Galloway?

  Support for the show comes from Nutriful, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand used by over one and a half million people. When you get to the stage of life where you start to notice hair loss, you have a few options. You can shave it all off and enjoy your new look, or you can commit to a new team whose logo you wouldn't mind constantly spotting on a hat, or you can actually restore some of your hair's former glory with Nutriful. Nutriful has formulas built for men at different life stages, such as Nutriful Men for guys aged 18 to 49, or the new Nutriful Men 50 and older. It's the first product of its kind specifically made for men over 50. You can address the key root causes of thinning wherever you are in life. Grow visibly thicker, fuller hair in three to six months. Start Nutriful today and make the hat optional.

• 36:51Scott Galloway?

  Visit nutriful.com and enter promo code PROFG for $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutriful is the best-selling hair growth supplement brand at nutriful.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code PROFG. That's nutriful.com promo code PROFG.

• 37:15Scott Galloway?

  I've gotten to know you a little bit, and what's interesting is we're, we're actually quite similar in terms of our profession. And I think I've achieved, you more so, but achieved certain levels of success and thought leadership, whatever the hell you want to call it. But what really struck me was, one of the major differences on the, on the front end, I think people say, oh, they're similar, doing the same thing, the same way. You're really about kind of ideas and impacting people. And whenever I start to talk about business, or we share business ideas, or talk about money, your eyes glaze over. And for me, and I'm, I'm not proud of this, money is like right up there for me, or business, or like building successful business that I can monetize. And as I've gotten older, I've gotten much better at sharing it.

• 37:57Scott Galloway?

  But you're, you really are about the ideas. I'm more about, the ideas for me are really interesting and I love it, but it's a means to, and I want to build a robust business. And, and I thought, well, it's just so, we're built much differently that way. Any thoughts?

• 38:13Speaker 04

  I mean, you're right. You, you like the money and the success, and the ideas are the means to that. And I'm the opposite, which is, I like the ideas and the business, if the ideas are good, then, then the business will follow. As for me, the, the, the value that other people put on, on the things that I put out in the world are proof that the, the ideas have value.

• 38:34Scott Galloway?

  Jesus, I sound awful. We've got to cut this out. It's like, your rap is so much better than mine. And that, that is such a better way to.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  But you know, no, and I'll tell you why I disagree with you. Is you're honest. Like, if, like, if investment banks took their stupid purpose statements down about how they want to help the world, or share something, or build economies, which is complete nonsense. And if CEOs of a lot of companies simply said, look, We're just here to make cash. I want to get rich. I want the people around me to get rich. These shareholders want to get rich. We're going to help them get rich. And we're going to try and make a great product for you in order to get rich. I'd actually be, that's what they're doing. We all know that's what they're doing. They're just lying to us and saying that other things are more important.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  And so the honesty, quite frankly, means that I know what I'm getting. And I know how to invest and I know how to, I know what level of trust or what barriers or what to believe. And so, because right now it's so hard to know what to believe because everybody's bullshitting us. And so I find your attitude so refreshing. And you and I are tortured by different things. And we're tortured by the, probably the thing that we put second. Like, I'm tortured that I'm not good at the structure stuff. And like, and you, and you sort of say, you know, you're more successful than me in terms of the thought leadership, which I don't even see. I mean, your, your, your game is so good.

• 40:07Speaker 04

  And I, I like, I, even though when we first met, we, I remember when we first met. And I was like, okay, he's kind of a little bit grumpy. Definitely pessimistic where I'm optimistic. I like him, I respect his work. Friendship, maybe, right? And the more I've gotten to know you, and we don't know each other well, but we've hung out a couple of times. I really, I really love spending time with you. Because I see us as yin and yang. And I see us as, as actually trying to do the same thing. You, you have a bigger heart than you give yourself credit. And you're, you have a lot more warmth and kindness than you give yourself credit. I'm probably better at the shit that I beat myself up about than, you know,

• 40:52Speaker 04

  than I realize or that I give myself credit for. And, and you and I make each other uncomfortable because my strengths are your weaknesses and your weakness, and your strengths are my weaknesses. And that's the discomfort, which is spending time with you just reminds me what I suck at. And I'm sort of having a minor love affair with you and your work. Like, when I see you pop up on my Instagram, constantly, by the way, well done.

• 41:14Scott Galloway?

  To resist is futile. I'm AOL in the 90s.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  Whatever your algorithm, you've nailed it. Like, I actually had to mute you just for a week, just to have a breath. You know, your stuff is getting better, you're clearer, and I just, I sit quietly and go, fuck, that's good.

• 41:34Scott Galloway?

  I love how we turn my interviews into me, but back to you. Well, I'll share something about me and I want, I want you to respond. You said something that was really interesting, and that is you're kind of a function of what's tortured you. I grew up with real economic anxiety, so it's just a, it's a ghost and a demon or, you know, a monkey on my back. I just can't shake. I'm always thinking about money. I'm very, very worried about being poor again. And it's hugely motivating, but also anxiety driven. And that is sort of my, I don't know if it's my cross to bear, but it plays too big a role in my life.

• 42:10Scott Galloway?

  What do you think it tortures you and where does it come from?

• 42:14Speaker 04

  So what I know about the concept of why, which is this thing, this deep seated, inspiring thing inside all of us. One of the things that I've learned about it is the thing you give to the world, the thing you have that gives you value in the world and to your friends and your relationships, is also the thing you need the most. And so it makes perfect sense to me in this balanced equation of this thing you crave is this thing you fear, you know? That makes perfect sense to me, and that you grew up without means you're afraid of having it going back there. My torture is, I really, really bad ADHD in a time where it was never diagnosed. You know, I was just considered hyperactive.

• 42:56Speaker 04

  My parents, by modern standards, did a lot of the wrong things. I don't fault them for it. There was no, there was no study done on it. You know, they, they did the best they could with a hyperactive kid who couldn't focus and didn't do schoolwork. I mean, what are you supposed to do? Do your homework? And I didn't do it. And I'm like, I don't, you know? And so, you know, I, I really struggle to build structure. And business is nothing more than structure. That's what it is. And I carry, like, when I talk to people who are brilliant operators and some of my, some CEO entrepreneur friends who just, I watch the structures that they've built. Now, are they operating, you know, are they changing the world, are they contributing to society? No. But my goodness, they built these remarkable, and I get so insecure because

• 43:40Speaker 04

  for them it comes so easily. And for me, I really struggle with it. And I'm to the point where I just stay quiet in those meetings. When people like talk about finance in front of me, and they use all the financie jargon or an investment jargon, and they just assume I know it all because I'm at a point in my career where I guess others do. I literally just have to go quiet out of sheer embarrassment. And so I carry a lot of discomfort that I really don't understand money. I don't understand it. I'm not good at it. And any money that I've made was an accident. And I see people who are contributing to society less, work

• 44:24Speaker 04

  less hard on the work that they do, and I see them make way more. And I'm not mad at that, but I, it makes me feel like, come on, fucker, like, up your game, you know? And I feel insecure in the worst of times. And the best of times, I surround myself with people who are really good at it. I ask advice. I've called you for things that are probably remedial, but to me, they're advanced. And just learn to get over the discomfort of asking for help from people who I fear will judge me because they know so much more than I do.

• 45:00Scott Galloway?

  Yeah, I think, I think what you just described, though, having a lack of financial literacy, I think you're describing 97% of America. And I want to be clear, like, I've been, I would say I've been wealthy three times. And the reason why it's been three times is because twice I lost it all, because I was not financially smart. I could have, I could have held on to my wealth, and instead I was. You know, bought into this kind of VC fomented zeitgeist of go all in on something. And if you really, if you persevere and, you know, never give up. I should have given up. I should have sold my stock or diversified. Instead, I was always going like 120% in on things. And then some things out of your control. Some things in my control, I just screwed up.

• 45:44Scott Galloway?

  But, you know, when the dot bomb implosion happened, I got broke again. When the great financial recession came along, because I hadn't been smarter and diversified, I got broke again. And I think some of the, I hear some embarrassment or self consciousness in your voice. I think it's especially prevalent among men because they assume if you're successful, that you're not really successful in America as a man unless you're financially extraordinarily successful and that you just accidentally wake up and get money. Right? We're supposed to be, you know, we're supposed to wake up and accidentally have, you know, a five o'clock shadow, a deep voice, a desire to procreate and be just really good at money. Otherwise, we're really not meant. Do you think that in America, I wonder if one of the things that creates loneliness

• 46:28Scott Galloway?

  among men is that we're not, we're so evaluated now. I think women are so disproportionately evaluated on their aesthetics. But at the same time, men are so disproportionately evaluated on their professional and financial viability. Do you think it creates more separation and loneliness that men don't have these kind of conversations or they feel embarrassed to have these conversations?

• 46:48Speaker 04

  That's such a good question, right? You know, sort of as you talked about, which is, you know, what are people posting on Instagram? All social media is marketing. And if you're not marketing, you're not using it right. Like whether you're marketing yourself or something, it's, that's just what it is. All social media is marketing. And so it's fun to watch, as you said, sort of how people market themselves. So how women market themselves tends to skew beauty, you know? And how men market themselves tends to skew wealth, you know? Standing in front of the Ferrari, the rented Ferrari. And I think you're, I think you're right. And, and just like we, and there's, and to your point, there's a lot of conversation about the dangers of social media for women, about creating unrealistic expectations of beauty.

• 47:34Speaker 04

  Especially for young girls. And yet, there's no conversation about the unhealthiness of social media, creating unhealthy expectations for young men and boys. We don't have that conversation at all. I think you're 100% right. And you and I have both talked about this. You know, the dangers of a lonely man. You know, you, you know, show me, go to the Middle East with, you know, 25% unemployment. In a shame-based society, you're a virgin and you're living at home. You know, show me, show me somebody who's committed a mass homicide, and I'll show you somebody that's generally a lonely man.

• 48:11Scott Galloway?

  Just as we wrap up here, I've had this whole rap about, if there's one enduring skill that you'd wanna be complete to your children, it would be storytelling. That is the key to success across almost every industry, a real success. At the end of the day, you and I make a living storytelling. And you're, you're outstanding at it. That, you know, I'm one of the, I don't know, 30 million people that saw your kind of TED Talk that sort of, I don't know if it made you famous, but definitely took it to a new level. Without trying to be, trying to be as immodest as possible, what have you done? And what are your practices and hacks such that you can maintain sort of your elite, you know, elite athlete status as a storyteller?

• 48:53Speaker 04

  Thank you for that. Can I tell a story?

• 48:56Scott Galloway?

  Dun, dun, dun. I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  It was a former undersecretary of defense who was giving a speech at a large conference, 1,000 people, whatever. And while he's giving his remarks, he takes a sip of, from his coffee that he's holding in the Styrofoam cup, and he smiles, and he interrupts his own presentation. And he says, you know, last year, I spoke at this exact same conference, except last year, I was still the undersecretary. And last year, they flew me here business class. There was somebody waiting for me at the airport to take me to the hotel. I got to the hotel. Somebody had already checked me in. They just gave me my key. I came down in the morning. There was somebody waiting for me in the lobby. They brought me to the same venue. They took me in the back entrance. They took me into the green room, and they handed me a cup of coffee in a beautiful ceramic cup. He says, I'm no longer the undersecretary. I flew her coach. I took a taxi to the hotel.

• 49:43Speaker 04

  I checked myself in. This morning, I came down and took another taxi to the venue. I came through the front entrance, found my way backstage. And when I asked somebody, do you have any coffee? They pointed to the coffee machine in the corner, and I poured myself a cup of coffee in this here Styrofoam cup. He says, the lesson is, the ceramic cup was never meant for me. I deserve a Styrofoam cup. I've tried to remember that, that it's okay to enjoy the ceramic cups. It's okay to think about the ceramic cups, want ceramic cups. But at the end of the day, remember that it's not being given to me. It's given to the position I held in this moment. And when I move on, they'll just give it to the next person. It was never meant for me.

• 50:26Speaker 04

  And I think what that does is two things, is it reminds me where I come from, what I'm entitled to. And it also helps me live in absolute gratitude, that anything that I get, all the ceramic cups I get to enjoy, I am grateful for every one of them and think I deserve none of them. And so when you ask me sort of like, what helps me stay true as a storyteller? I think it's very simple, which is I don't view myself as an expert. I view myself as a student. I genuinely think of myself as an idiot. I'm just more comfortable with the idea of admitting it these days. And I really like learning. And so the stories I tell are not actually for your benefit. The stories I tell are to help me make sense of the world.

• 51:11Speaker 04

  And the stories I tell help me understand complex things. And if I'm going to explain something to you, the best way I know how to do it is by telling the story that helped me understand it.

• 51:22Scott Galloway?

  Last question. In five years, kind of first things that come to your mind. If you're sitting here in five years and the following one or two things had happened to you, and that was success, what are those things? What boxes are you still looking to check?

• 51:38Speaker 04

  I'm very sorry I can't answer the question. I'm living proof that having a plan means nothing. My entire career was, I would never want to be a public speaker. I never wanted to write a single book, let alone five. Like, nothing I've done in my career was in the plan. My plan was thrown out ages ago. I had one, it didn't go that way. And so To me, the folly of a plan, it's like, it's like planning how many miles, it's like planning which highway you're gonna take and how many miles you wanna drive per day, but not knowing the destination. It's like figuring out these waypoints. Like, you know, in three days, you know, what city will you be at if you're driving across countries?

• 52:23Speaker 04

  Like, which direction am I going in? And my focus tends to be so far over the horizon to a vision, an unrealizable idealism, idealistic vision. And the path that I take, I'm agnostic. And so you asking me to tell you, like, what the waypoint will be, I could tell you something and I can guarantee you it won't happen. So I'm just trying to find the most efficient and fun path to that crazy, faraway place that I know I'll never get to. And, and that's unnerving and more fun.

• 53:00Scott Galloway?

  Wasn't it Eisenhower that said, "Plans are useless, but planning is invaluable"?

• 53:04Speaker 04

  And I think that's true. I think that's true. I believe in backup plans. I believe in alternative routes. Like, if this one's blocked, I'm gonna go that direction for my career, you know? I believe in going slowly in the right direction versus speeding off in the wrong direction. So, you know, when companies talk about growth at all costs, I'm like, "For what reason?", you know? And I'm okay knowing that other people are driving faster than me because I know at some point, they'll hit a road. Not that I'm competing against them, I just know this from experience. When, young in my career, I used to go to a guy. He, he, he was very successful. He did similar things as me. He made a ton of money. I made none. And he would say stupid shit like, "I'm not getting out of bed

• 53:49Speaker 04

  for more than $25,000. I won't even get out of bed", you know? And I was like, "Oh, shit, I do stuff for free all the time because I, like, really wanna, like, talk to somebody or meet somebody or it sounds like fun." And he basically spent most of the time, I went to him for advice, calling me stupid. Well... I can guarantee you've never heard of him. And my career has far surpassed him. And it's not a competition and there's no gloating. For me, the lesson is I'd rather play the slow, steady game than the fast game where I can show off to everybody.

• 54:23Speaker 04

  And understand how I think about my career, no matter how much success I have, however you want to define it, I always think I'm still at the tip of the iceberg because there's so much more work to do. And I think focusing on what's beneath the ocean, I think, keeps you humble and keeps you focused on all the work that has to be done. But you're asking me to tell you what, how much iceberg is going to be above the ocean, and I couldn't tell you.

• 54:43Scott Galloway?

  Simon Sinek is an international speaker and bestselling author of the books Start With Why, The Infinite Game, and Find Your Why. He's also the founder of The Optimism Company, which provides programs for leadership development. He joins us from his home in Los Angeles. Simon, I always enjoy spending time with you. We are so, you're the most different person I know that is the same person. And I think that's what I enjoy so much about spending time with you is we're so similar from an exterior standpoint. And you just come at stuff from such a different perspective as me, and it really illuminates. You just pointed something out to me that it was sort of puncturing, and that is sometimes I think when I'm advising people and I draw my own experiences in, I think sometimes

• 55:26Scott Galloway?

  I'm boasting rather than just helping, and I want to be more cognizant of that. Anyways, brother, it's always great to, great to speak to you, and congrats on everything.

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Thanks, and I'm loving getting to know you. I really am. You know, you snuck up on me.

• 55:40Scott Galloway?

  Go on.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  When I see your shit everywhere, legit, I smile like a proud parent. I'm like, yeah, man, go, you know? And I just, I'm really, I can't wait to come back to London and spend more time with you, but properly.

• 55:54Scott Galloway?

  I appreciate that.

• 56:06Scott Galloway?

  How's your happiness? I've been thinking a lot about grief. This was a rough weekend for me, as I'm sure it was for a lot of people. The news of the hostages being murdered by Hamas in Gaza, specifically the story of 23-year-old American Israeli Hersh Goldberg Pollan, who was wounded and abducted by Hamas during the Nova Music Festival massacre. He was held hostage for almost 11 months until his body was recovered from Rafa in the Gaza Strip on the 31st of August, 2024. And I've been thinking a lot about why that specific situation has inspired so much collective grieving, given there's been so much death and destruction,

• 56:50Scott Galloway?

  both, obviously, among those killed on October 7th and those taken hostage, but also so much grief and so much death and destruction registered by people in Gaza. Why is this young man's death so rattling? And I think it's for a few reasons. One, you can relate to it, or they put a face on it. I saw the parents speak at the Democratic National Convention, and just seeing the grief, just so, just the just profound sadness and anxiety on their parents' faces. Any parent just looks at them and immediately kind of understands or comes close to that horror.

• 57:33Scott Galloway?

  And it puts a face on it, whereas when we see news, it just seems somewhat a little bit remote or distant, if you will. So I think it's putting a face on it. The story of parents, obviously, is very gripping one. If you're a parent, you just feel such immense sadness. And

• 57:53Scott Galloway?

  I think what it does, though, it informs your life. And that is what you hope for. And what I've tried to do last night, I was in real funk to try and get out of it was I've thought, okay, the reason I have these fears, the reason I'm so worried about grieving is one anthropologically, it makes me a better father. It makes me think about protecting them. You know, I've already called my son today. It does make you a better, you know, it does attach you to them. That fear of potentially experiencing that grief, putting a face on it, obviously from a current standpoint, but also, you know, and as I think about this, it really is a function of the blessings you have, that the grief you feel is because you were put in a position where you were able to attach to others and you were able to experience

• 58:36Scott Galloway?

  what is the most important thing in life, and that is deep and meaningful relationships. And some, I hope all of you listening out there, you know, I would wish for all of you a lot of joy and deep and meaningful relationships that don't register grief, but present the possibility of grief, which is nothing again, but receipts for love and means that you have people in your life that you care a great deal about.

• 58:59Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Caroline Shager and Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer. And Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prop G Markets Pod. That's right, the Prop G Markets Pod, wherever you get your pods for the new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

• 59:28Scott Galloway?

  Woo hoo, ka-ching, Mo money, light up the rail. I want some Bolivian marching powder. Where's the, where's the Dom Paragon? I want some channel. I want for some Versace.

• 59:40Speaker 06

  When you shop pickup at Kroger, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries selected just for you. Our associates are committed to getting every detail right, carefully handpicking your items, checking for quality and freshness, and packing your order with care because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. And right now, enjoy $20 off your first online order of $75 or more. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger, fresh for everyone.

• 1:00:10Speaker 07

  Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax, and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh my gosh, they're so fast! And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order.