Is A $1 Slice Of Pizza A Snack? (with Katie Nolan)

Is wine actually better than beer when watching football? What would a Thanksgiving feast prepared with recipes from Tom Brady’s cookbook taste like? Do you really need to wash your vegetables? We’re tackling your food disputes and hot takes this week, with someone who’s seen plenty of tackling — Katie Nolan.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:36Dan Pashman?

  This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And today, we are taking your calls about your food disputes with friends and loved ones. We'll also hear your food hot takes. And through it all, we will not be afraid to take sides. Joining me to ride shotgun for this episode is someone who's no stranger to strong opinions. As a longtime sports TV personality, she comes from a world full of rivalries and head-to-head conflict. She's hosted shows on ESPN and Fox Sports. These days, she's hosting a great new podcast about sports and culture called Casuals, right here at Sirius XM. Big welcome to Katie Nolan.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:14Dan Pashman?

  So, listen, in just a few minutes, we're gonna chat with some listeners who have food-related relationship issues. We're gonna tackle some hot takes.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:21Dan Pashman?

  Well, first, let's just take a minute and chat. Let's hang out. Let's get to know you and food.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:25Dan Pashman?

  All right, because ahead of this past Super Bowl, you took part in the Great American Baking Show.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:31Dan Pashman?

  Celebrity Big Game Edition, where you competed against current and former NFL stars like Tony Gonzalez, DK Metcalf, as well as the actor Amy Smart. First off, like, going into this competition, what was your level of baking expertise?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  Zero. Absolutely zero. I have a sister-in-law who taught me a lot right before I left.

• 2:49Dan Pashman?

  You practiced. You practiced. You trained.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  A little, but I got a tiny kitchen. I live in Manhattan. I don't have a KitchenAid standing mixer. I've never used one of those before. So she taught me a little bit. She was like, this is butter. This is flour. These go in here.

• 3:04Dan Pashman?

  Right. And you were an athlete in high school, too, right?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I played softball.

• 3:07Dan Pashman?

  So did your background as an athlete inform the way you prepared for this baking competition?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Because I'm looking at it, and I'm like, of all the people, I mean, I was competing against athletes.

• 3:21Dan Pashman?

  Right, right.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  So the edge was not going to be in that, in that way. My edge was that I was like, I, um, care. I really care about this. I don't want to lose.

• 3:32Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Um, which actually, I was surprised to find, like, the athletes bring that same mentality with them, no matter what they're doing.

• 3:38Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's, so that's interesting. And you were up against, so DK Metcalf, great wide receiver. Tony Gonzalez, a Hall of Fame tight end, one of the all-time greats. So like, I guess it's got to be in your personality. If you're that great at a sport, you have to be the kind of person who's so competitive and is driven to excel at whatever you're going to do.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like DK, I was very surprised to see, because like you said, a great wide receiver currently playing, like, doing well. Um, I thought he would just be like, I'm here so I don't get fined. I'm here just to collect the whatever. My agent said to do this.

• 4:08Dan Pashman?

  My agent said this is a good idea.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  So I'm doing this. But he was like... Upset. Anytime there was like a part where we were judged, if he wasn't judged to be the best, he was like huffy about it. I could genuinely tell, like, this guy's pissed off. He wanted to win. And he's like, well, I didn't come here to lose. And I love that. I love that.

• 4:29Dan Pashman?

  Right. And so you, you made whoopee pies.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:32Dan Pashman?

  You're a Massachusetts native. Whoopee pies are a New England thing.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  I thought, I think.

• 4:36Dan Pashman?

  I think so.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  I think.

• 4:37Dan Pashman?

  We should say, just in case you folks from other parts of the country may not know, it's like a, like a chocolate cake sandwich with some kind of like buttercream frosting.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, this was a, it was like a Swiss buttercream, orange, something.

• 4:50Dan Pashman?

  But you made them shaped like footballs?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:52Dan Pashman?

  How did your whoopee pies come out?

• 4:54Speaker 01

  I won that challenge.

• 4:55Dan Pashman?

  Impressive.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Everybody was impressed. I was shocked. Shocked. Like, they eat it in front of you. This was like a blind challenge, so the judges don't know who baked what. And so they're eating them and they're just giving honest feedback. And they ate mine and they were like, this is delicious. And I like sat up, I was like, mine?

• 5:13Dan Pashman?

  In your face, DK Metcalf.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  Mine are delicious? So I was pretty proud of myself. I did not win the whole competition, but I won that little challenge.

• 5:20Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's something.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  And I didn't think I was gonna leave having won anything. So I'm very, very proud. I will, my, my family now says I have to make those at the next family function. And I was like, I can't remember how I did that. I blacked out for most of it. So, we'll see.

• 5:34Dan Pashman?

  All right, Katie, one more thing we gotta cover. A few years back, you took part in a taste test where you were served a Thanksgiving dinner prepared according to the recipes in Tom Brady's cookbook.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 5:45Dan Pashman?

  Obviously, a lot of athletes are careful about what they eat.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:47Dan Pashman?

  But Tom Brady was famous for going so much.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Above and beyond.

• 5:51Dan Pashman?

  Right. I mean, like, he wouldn't eat tomatoes.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  No strawberries.

• 5:54Dan Pashman?

  Right, because he thought they, like, increased inflammation. I mean, I mean, just so incredibly extreme. His personal trainer was once asked, does Tom ever get a treat? Wants to get the guy a treat? And the trainer said, oh, of course we give him a treat. When he, you know, if he wants a treat, he has avocado ice cream. Oh, I think I'm gonna cry just saying those words. So you ate this Thanksgiving dinner, prepared according to the recipes in his cookbook. How was it?

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Awful. Awful. And that is no shade to the lovely staff at the ESPN campus who, like, cooked us these horrendous recipes. It was awful.

• 6:28Dan Pashman?

  What made it so bad?

• 6:29Speaker 01

  It was just flavorless. It was, um, it felt like...

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Trying, it was trying to be food, but it wasn't. It was just like different quinoa's and vegetables, but they were pretending to be. Where it lost me is they were pretending to be something else.

• 6:44Dan Pashman?

  Oh, so they're like, oh, it's stuffing, but there's no bread.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  This is just like your mom's mac and cheese. You're like, I promise it's not going to be, as it does not have mac or cheese in it.

• 6:52Dan Pashman?

  Or probably no butter.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was, um, you know, if it works for him, that's great. It gave, he had a long career, very successful.

• 7:00Dan Pashman?

  This is something I've always wondered about him. I mean, like, I'm sure he would tell you it was worth it.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:06Dan Pashman?

  I mean, he only won seven Super Bowls.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Only.

• 7:09Dan Pashman?

  And all that time, he ate no ice cream.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Crazy. I'd rather eat ice cream than win one Super Bowl.

• 7:14Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I don't want to live a life, he's never had coffee. I don't, I just don't want to live a life where I'm not, I mean, I'm too often indulging in what I want. I'm eating exactly what I want all the time, which also a bad thing you shouldn't do. But I would much rather do that and know how good it is to eat like a steak covered in butter with like creamed spinach and mashed potatoes than to be like, this is tofu, but it's shaped like a turkey. And, uh.

• 7:40Dan Pashman?

  It's hard for me to trust someone with that much willpower.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like, well, what else can you get yourself to do or not do? Like, what, you're not weak in the face of a delicious treat? Then I don't trust you. What is your?

• 7:54Dan Pashman?

  Exactly, exactly. It's some sort of Manchurian candidate.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  You're not like me. It's not the same. You're operating on a different plane.

• 8:02Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And I can't, yeah, I can't relate.

• 8:04Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 8:08Dan Pashman?

  All right, Katie, I think we're warmed up. Are you ready to help some sporkful listeners who have food-related relationship issues, disagreements, hot takes? Are you ready to take them all on?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm ready. I hope to solve some problems.

• 8:19Dan Pashman?

  Okay, all right. So here's the first one.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Hi, my name is Pam Isels and I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And my football food take is that wine is a much better pick than beer for football festivities. For one, it doesn't fill your belly up as much as beer does. Second, if you properly select like all the wines you have with all the foods you're gonna serve, then your food-wine combos will taste so much more fantastic. And you'll likely end up with such a wide range of wines that any guests should find one they like. I have more points, but those are the two that are the most important to me. So that's my hot take. Wine is better than beer for football foods.

• 8:59Dan Pashman?

  Katie, this seems like it's right up your alley.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:01Dan Pashman?

  You partook in a nine beer, nine hot dog.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 9:06Dan Pashman?

  Nine inning challenge.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 9:07Dan Pashman?

  So that's a nine inning baseball game to have one hot dog and one beer every inning.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can pace it however you want. You can do like three in the first inning and whatever.

• 9:15Dan Pashman?

  Okay, okay.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yes, over the course of nine innings, you try to drink nine beers and eat nine hot dogs. I think I got to like seven and eight. It was very difficult.

• 9:22Dan Pashman?

  See, I could eat nine hot dogs.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  You think?

• 9:25Dan Pashman?

  I think I could, I think I really think.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 9:27Dan Pashman?

  I could eat nine hot dogs.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:29Dan Pashman?

  You know, on the right day with the right preparation.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Dan Pashman?

  But I could not do that while drinking nine beers.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  It's a lot. The room in your stomach is, you run out very quick. You don't realize how much the liquid's gonna take up a lot of space.

• 9:39Dan Pashman?

  That's a lot of what Pam in Pittsburgh here is saying. So what do you think?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  I think Pam has, makes a very strong argument. Um, I think that the, the not filling you up is her best argument. The pairing with the food, also a great argument. The other side of that is what keeps me from having wine with my sports stuff is I don't have the wine knowledge. So I think like, you'd have to have the wine knowledge to pair the food with the wine. I think the reason wine hasn't caught on as a football drink yet is the, is the difficulty of wine just as like for access. I think it's a lot easier to be like, I'll take a Bud Light than like, what do you have for a red? But the other thing is, it's the way you drink it, it's always gotta be in like a glass. I don't, a, a wine in a cup feels wrong.

• 10:23Dan Pashman?

  You know, I'm a big New York Giants football fan. At Giants games, at the vending kiosk, they sell wine in a can now.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 10:30Dan Pashman?

  They have wine in a can.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  So I stand corrected.

• 10:32Dan Pashman?

  I'll also say that I once interviewed the famous chef and TV personality Jacques Papan.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 10:38Dan Pashman?

  Uh, at his house in Connecticut. And I'm not a big huge wine drinker, but at the end of the taping, he was like, do you want a glass of wine? And I was like, whoa, I'm gonna drink a glass of wine with Jacques Papan, of course. First of all, he told me that he often drinks wine out of a paper cup.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:51Dan Pashman?

  He also drinks wine over ice in the afternoon.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 10:54Dan Pashman?

  Which is delicious.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I thought that wasn't allowed. I agree it's delicious. I thought we weren't supposed to do that.

• 10:59Dan Pashman?

  If Jacques Papan says it's okay, then it's okay.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I'm gonna say that now all the time.

• 11:04Dan Pashman?

  Right. I think that the reasons you cite for why beer is more associated with football are true, but I think there's another reason that would be interesting to address.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 11:11Dan Pashman?

  Which is that there's a lot of like masculinity machismo around football.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:16Dan Pashman?

  And beer, there's a perception, this is changing somewhat, but it's still there certainly, that beer is like a man's man drink. And wine is like somehow she, she and you know, not.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't chug wine.

• 11:27Dan Pashman?

  Right, right. I mean, you can, you can.

• 11:29Speaker 01

  I'm sure you could.

• 11:30Dan Pashman?

  Right, but um, but I wonder how that plays into the, some of these perceptions.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, but I, I think you're, you said it's changing. I think it is a little. I also think like, especially with the Taylor Swift of it all.

• 11:44Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Bringing, uh, getting more young women interested in football. Granted, I know they're there because of her, but maybe they stick around. Maybe it becomes more of a wine drinking, um, place. I'm open to the idea. And especially now that I know I can put ice in it.

• 11:59Dan Pashman?

  There you go.

• 12:01Dan Pashman?

  All right, Katie, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna take a live call from a married couple that has been having the same food-related argument for 17 years.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 12:10Dan Pashman?

  We're gonna see if we can finally resolve it. All right, we'll be right back.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Hope you're hungry, cuz it's time for some ads.

• 12:26Dan Pashman?

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• 13:09Dan Pashman?

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• 13:30Dan Pashman?

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• 14:12Dan Pashman?

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• 14:55Dan Pashman?

  Learn more at USPS.com/holiday. I grew up on Land O' Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Land O' Lakes American cheese. And now, Land O' Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Land O' Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Land O' Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 15:29Dan Pashman?

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• 16:13Dan Pashman?

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• 16:36Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman, and in January, I made a big announcement. I announced that I am going back to Italy this fall to lead another pasta tour. And since I made that announcement, eight of the 12 spots on the trip have been booked. So get on it. Come eat pasta with me in Italy. You'll dine in Rome with Katy Parla. We'll have spaghetti alla assassina in Bari. And I also just love that this tour takes you to Puglio, which is an area of Italy that not a whole lot of food tours go to. It is beautiful. They have so many great regional specialties for us to try. It's gonna be phenomenal. So book your spot before it's too late. Go to culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful. That's culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful.

• 17:18Dan Pashman?

  All right, Katy, are you ready to help some Sporkful listeners who are embroiled in a very serious food-related feud?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  A food fight, if you will?

• 17:27Dan Pashman?

  That's right. That's right. Trademark.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  I'm ready.

• 17:30Dan Pashman?

  All right. Let's go to the phones. Hi, who's this? Hey, Dan, it's Zach Brooks. Zach, my old friend Zach Brooks. Longtime Sporkful listeners will remember you from a time you were on the show in, what about, was that about 2013, probably? That sounds like it could be true. You had a food podcast called Food is the New Rock with chefs and musicians that was so great. And now you're running Smorgasbord in LA, right? Yes, yes. I gather we're also joined by your lovely wife.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Sarah. Nice to meet you.

• 17:58Dan Pashman?

  Hey Sarah, nice to meet you. Say hello to my friend Katie over here.

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Hi Sarah. Hey Katie.

• 18:03Dan Pashman?

  So before we get into the matter at hand, I do want to check in. You guys are in LA. How are you doing?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  We're fine. Thank you for asking. You know, the city is getting back to normal, you know, with air quotes around "normal" of course. And I have to say, I am super grateful to have the job I have at Smorgasberg, which sort of put me at the front lines of seeing the restaurant community respond just immediately when the fires first happened and continue to respond on a week-to-week basis, feeding people in need, being there for the community. It really is an amazing thing to see the hospitality community do what they do best.

• 18:48Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. No, I do feel like people who get into the restaurant business really love taking care of people. And it comes out in times like this.

• 18:57Speaker 05

  100%. And it's, I mean, the sad thing is, is that, you know, it has been a tough time for the restaurant industry, even beyond the fires, especially here in LA. And this certainly does not help. And it's even crazier to see the people who sort of can help the least, helping the most.

• 19:17Dan Pashman?

  Well, I'm glad you guys are doing okay. It's time now to get into some more hard-hitting stuff though, okay? Sarah, do you want to set this up for us? What's going on? Talk to us.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  I would love to, because I...

• 19:32Speaker 05

  I already regret my decision, Dan.

• 19:38Speaker 05

  This was a huge mistake, I can tell already.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Well, I just fear if Zach were the one to introduce it, he would mischaracterize his argument, or the feud that's really been raging for probably 17 years now. So yeah, if I may, this all started, I would say, yeah, 17 or 18 years ago, when my dear husband...

• 20:06Speaker 04

  And we lived in Hell's Kitchen and there was a place that sold dollar slices of pizza. So as I recall, he would frequently stop by the dollar slice of pizza. You know, maybe before we would have dinner and he would say, well, you know, I just had a snack. Right. His argument was the price of the thing made it a snack. My argument was a pizza is not a snack. It's a meal and the price of the thing doesn't matter. And so Zach's argument has evolved over time, right? It has to be adjusted for inflation. Now he'll say, well, anything under $2 is a snack.

• 20:45Dan Pashman?

  So just so I understand, Sarah, you're basically saying it's the type of food

• 20:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:50Dan Pashman?

  that dictates whether it's a snack or a meal. And Zach is saying that the price can be what makes it a snack. Zach, let me hear your side of this.

• 21:00Speaker 05

  My argument was a dollar slice is a snack. And I was told that is definitely not a snack. A slice of pizza is not a snack. And I was like, listen, if you're talking about a gigantic slice of pizza, that might not be a snack. But a dollar slice is definitely a snack if for no other reason than it costs a dollar. And then my arrogance took over and I was like, I'm even willing to say anything that costs a dollar is a snack, just by virtue of it being a dollar. And now it's 17 years later and I am even more arrogant before than before. And now I'm willing to say that anything that's $2

• 21:40Dan Pashman?

  Wow.

• 21:41Speaker 05

  could be considered a snack because it, now I'm not saying that all snacks have to cost $2. I'm just saying that anything that costs $2 or less can be considered a snack. Cause realistically, what are you going to get for $2 or less? Cause even a dollar slice of pizza is not a big slice of pizza. It is a, it is a smaller slice.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  But that's just not true. Go to Costco. The Costco slices of pizza are objectively huge. That is not a snack by any stretch of the imagination. Let me finish. It is $1.99 and remains $1.99.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Hot dog is a dollar fifty.

• 22:20Speaker 05

  It's a snack.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Also not a snack.

• 22:22Speaker 05

  Katie, you have a question for this pair?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Let's say in a hypothetical, the dollar slice is five dollars. Do you then consider that, Zach, a meal? Or does it stay a snack? It's just an overpriced snack?

• 22:40Speaker 05

  I think that the argument, I can't say definitively one way or another. My, my.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Convenient.

• 22:48Speaker 05

  The thing is that my, my argument was merely that anything that is a dollar or two dollars or less is a snack.

• 22:58Speaker 04

  Your argument is unraveling, dude. I mean.

• 23:03Speaker 05

  If the, if the slice cost five dollars, I would, I would expect it to be bigger. I would expect it to be bigger.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  That my argument is, it doesn't matter what the price of the thing is. It's either a snack or it's not.

• 23:15Speaker 05

  Name something in the real world you could buy for less than two dollars that wouldn't, couldn't be considered a snack.

• 23:20Speaker 04

  I just named two things. The Costco slice of pizza, which is huge.

• 23:25Speaker 05

  I think that's over two dollars.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  It is not.

• 23:28Speaker 05

  But the hot dog is a dollar fifty.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  It is a dollar ninety-nine.

• 23:31Speaker 05

  But if a slice of pizza was healthy, then could a one dollar slice of pizza be a snack?

• 23:37Speaker 04

  It's not. So there are healthy things that are snacks, like nuts or, you know, chips and hummus. He snacks on like carrot sticks and hummus. That's a great and appropriate snack.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  What if he ate the whole, like a Sabra thing of hummus? Not the individual ones, like the tub. What if he ate a whole thing of that with pretzels before a meal? Is that a snack?

• 23:59Speaker 04

  It's still a snack. And that's where my logic makes sense, right? Like you can eat an entire bucket of popcorn that costs whatever, ten, fifteen dollars at the, at the movie theater. It still doesn't make it a meal.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  The quantity, it's not the quantity. So like, what if he ate a family-sized tub of hummus? Like a Costco-level bucket of hummus? And he said, I'm, for dinner, honey, I'm having hummus. And he just got a big, a soup spoon and a bucket of hummus.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 24:27Speaker 05

  And that's all he ate. And he said, I'm full. Boy, that was a great dinner. I'm going up to bed. Like, would you, would you be like, you didn't even have dinner. You just had a snack.

• 24:36Speaker 04

  Maybe. I, I mean, that's, that's just gross.

• 24:39Speaker 05

  Can I just, can I just say that you guys, you should be therapists? Because. I have to say, in the 20 years we've been having this argument, I finally, at this very moment, realized what the difference in our argument is. And what you're saying, my dear wife, who I love very much, is 100% true. What? If you, if you define, if you're defining the word snack as a, like an adjective to define a kind of food, like a snack food.

• 25:19Dan Pashman?

  Like a category of food.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  Category of food. You are correct. I was defining it merely as a thing that you would eat as a snack. And a giant tub of popcorn, like, you know, three tons of popcorn, under my definition, would not be a snack. It's too much food to eat at 3 o'clock in the afternoon as a snack. But it is snack food. Popcorn is snack food. Pizza is not snack food. What is happening? Look at her mind being blown.

• 25:49Dan Pashman?

  Sarah looks very taken aback.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  But a small slice of pizza can be eaten as a snack. Okay, first of all. Guys, we did it. We're both right. We did it. We're both right. This is, I'm trying to save my marriage, guys. Oh, no. Can we both be right, please?

• 26:07Dan Pashman?

  Zach, you're saying that you, you want this to end where you're both right. To me, it feels like you're both wrong.

• 26:15Speaker 05

  Woo.

• 26:15Dan Pashman?

  Because you coined the right term, Zach, snack food. You're, you're taking one word that really has two different definitions, okay? The word snack can refer to a type of food, a category of food. Snack foods, like popcorn, chips, et cetera, what you were saying, Sarah. But then there's also snack, which is like a type of eating occasion, different from a meal. A meal is a full portion. A snack is something smaller to tide you over between meals. When you think of a snack as an eating occasion, to me, it should be defined by the quantity. What separates a snack from a meal is that it's smaller and typically eaten at a time of day that's not a mealtime.

• 26:58Dan Pashman?

  You're right, Sarah, that we think of certain foods as being snack foods. You know, like, I'll eat chicken for breakfast if that's what's in the fridge and I'm in the mood for it. You know, I'll eat cereal for dinner. A lot of these distinctions are arbitrary or cultural. So, yeah, I love tortilla chips, but like, you know, sometimes if I'm not that hungry, but it's lunchtime, I'll have tortilla chips or pita and hummus, and that'll be my lunch. Was that a snack? No, it was my lunch. So I think that a slice of pizza is absolutely a snack if you're only eating one slice, because a snack is based on quantity. And one slice of pizza, to me, is not a meal.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  It's not enough food to be a meal.

• 27:34Dan Pashman?

  That said, you're right, Sarah, that a slice of pizza does not fit into our cultural definition of what is a snack food.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  Okay. I mean, going back to his original hypothesis, it's the... His hypothesis is the price of the thing makes it a snack or not.

• 27:50Speaker 05

  Something that could be eaten at snack time.

• 27:52Speaker 04

  I just want to hear the words, Zach is wrong, and then I can move on.

• 27:56Dan Pashman?

  Forget the price. The price doesn't dictate if it's a snack. If it's 3 o'clock in the afternoon, and you're between meals, and you're hungry, and you're not having dinner till 7:30, and you get a single cheeseburger from McDonald's...

• 28:06Speaker 01

  It's a snack.

• 28:06Dan Pashman?

  That's a snack.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  A single McDonald's cheeseburger is a snack. I'm so sorry, it is. It is, because it's so small.

• 28:12Dan Pashman?

  Right, it's about quantity. A snack is defined by quantity. Not price and not type of food is defined by quantity.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  I know, I feel like I've lost you. I feel like you're...

• 28:22Dan Pashman?

  That's why I'm saying they're both wrong.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  You feel betrayed. Yeah, you guys both might be wrong.

• 28:27Dan Pashman?

  I'm fine with that.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  But at least you're together, you know? You're sharing a drink called wrongness. But it's better than being wrong alone.

• 28:39Dan Pashman?

  Zach and Sarah in L.A., I hope that you enjoy your next dollar slice of pizza, whether it's for a snack or a meal.

• 28:49Speaker 05

  Thank you, Dan.

• 28:50Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Bye, guys.

• 28:55Dan Pashman?

  So Katie, what do you think? Do you think that they're gonna let this argument go?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  No, I don't. But also, did you see how sad they seemed when it felt like we might have solved it? Where they both were like, "Well, then now what are we?" So I almost feel like this argument existing and continuing to exist is good for them.

• 29:15Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And I feel like all it really was, was you're just looking for permission to eat a tiny slice of pizza before your dinner. That's all it is.

• 29:22Dan Pashman?

  And doesn't every successful couple need a 17-year-long argument over something totally stupid?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  About something stupid that does not matter at all. That like, even when asked to define what your side of the argument is, you're kind of like, "I don't really know."

• 29:34Dan Pashman?

  I don't know.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  But I believe it passionately, and I will not back down. So I thought it was great. It was a perfect glimpse into a relationship dynamic.

• 29:42Dan Pashman?

  That's right. All right, so hey, can we hear from a couple more listeners?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:46Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's go to another voicemail.

• 29:48Speaker 06

  My name is Gina. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. And I am one of those people who is cursed to dislike cilantro because it tastes like soap. And my hot take is, just as there are gluten-free menus or other allergy menus, I feel that there should be a cilantro-free menu. I feel that this is not only something that will improve my enjoyment, but help reduce food waste because it has happened many a time that I have even mentioned to a server that I'm trying to avoid things with cilantro, and it still ends up in my food.

• 30:23Dan Pashman?

  So are you familiar with this issue, Katie?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Yes, I am.

• 30:26Dan Pashman?

  People have this...

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Deeply familiar.

• 30:27Dan Pashman?

  Do you have it?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:28Dan Pashman?

  Wow! For listeners who don't know, it's a genetic thing. Some people are born with a gene that cilantro just tastes like soap. And it makes anything with cilantro unpalatable. Is that right?

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:40Dan Pashman?

  And so, tell me about, tell me.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  So I have this. I feel like cilantro, and this is just my personal experience, I feel like it started popping up like, in all of the stuff. Not that long ago, maybe like 15, 10 years ago, it started like being in, when you got guacamole, it was obviously with cilantro. The rice at Chipotle has cilantro. Like it just is now everywhere. And I at first was like, I don't know what it is about this green stuff. I don't like it. Then I come to find out there's a genetic thing and some people don't like it and some people. Now we've reached the stage, there's backlash. Now I've started to notice the world is like, shut up about your gene that makes it taste like soap.

• 31:17Dan Pashman?

  Really?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Get over it. You're just being a baby. So I've tried to embrace cilantro more.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  It's not going well. I, uh, I will, I can, like, I also have this problem with spicy food. I would love to love spicy food. I would love to want to eat it. I'd love to go on Hot Ones and eat as many spicy wings, increasing in spiciness as I can. It hurts. It physically hurts my mouth. And so I would say with cilantro, I'm like, try, I can, it's easier to power through. If somebody makes me something and it has cilantro in it, I don't have to go like, oh, this is awkward. I, I can't eat this. I'll eat it and I'll just be like, mm, and it tastes like soap. But I'll, once you get through it, I can sort of push that to the back of my mind, my, my taste mind, if that makes sense, and I can keep going.

• 32:10Dan Pashman?

  In terms of spicy food, I can tell you, look, I didn't grow up eating a lot of spicy food. And, and I too used to not be able to handle any spice. And I know that with spice, it's just a matter of exposure.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 32:21Dan Pashman?

  You just have to start with a very small amount. Get yourself a bottle of sriracha or chalula or whatever.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Chalula, I like chalula.

• 32:27Dan Pashman?

  Put, start with just a drop.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:28Dan Pashman?

  Just a drop on, on anything. And then get to two drops and three drops. And eventually you will acquire a taste for it.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:34Dan Pashman?

  Uh, it just, it'll just take you a few years, you know? That's why I ask you if you can handle even a small amount of cilantro, because I feel like sensory scientists would call it exposure therapy.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:44Dan Pashman?

  And so I wonder if exposure therapy would work with cilantro.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I think it probably has. I think the thing that I'm saying I do, which is like not send something back about cilantro, I think has probably raised my tolerance for it. Or it's at least made me go like, Maybe soap can taste good sometimes. Maybe a little soap isn't the worst thing in the world to taste.

• 33:07Dan Pashman?

  Right. So just to conclude this topic, Katie, Gina in Cleveland is arguing for a cilantro-free menu. She believes just as there's gluten-free options, there's vegetarian options, that there should be clearly labeled, it should be something restaurants make available. What do you say?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I think you're gonna, it's gonna be an uphill battle because of the backlash that we're currently experiencing as a community. But I think, I think if you stay strong, I think, look, if you can make a menu that's gluten-free, make a menu that's cilantro-free. I think you can find one place that will do it. I think it's not a terrible idea. Uh, and I wish, I wish her the best in her, in her endeavor. I hope that they, somebody does that for her. It's not a terrible idea.

• 33:47Dan Pashman?

  All right, Katie, this hot take comes in the form of an email from Taylor in Columbus, Nebraska. And he says, "You only need to wash vegetables when they have visible dirt on them. The rest is all make-believe," he says. Examples of what to wash? Mushrooms, you gotta wipe off, wipe them with a damp cloth. Celery, leaks, some potatoes, herbs from your garden. He says that psychopaths wash everything else. Perfectly cleaned bell peppers, pristine broccoli, herbs, already wet cilantro from that misty section in the supermarket. Wash away food dirt that you see or feel. The rest is a waste of time.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Huh. I don't know if I agree. I've seen this debate about washing chicken. And I've never, I grew up in a house where you took it right out of that slimy package and you used it because you're gonna cook it. So you'll cook off whatever's on it. But I've seen lately, a lot of people wash their, and then with washing their chicken, there's also on TikTok, a whole, people make whole swaths of content about washing and preparing and storing their vegetables. So I already feel a little behind the eight ball. I'm like, am I supposed to be washing everything? So this kind of makes me, Taylor makes me feel a little bit relieved. But broccoli, I feel like you have to wash. I feel like lettuce, aren't you supposed to wash? And then you spin it in your salad spinner?

• 35:09Dan Pashman?

  You can't, I mean, so, so first off, quick note, as far as chicken goes, you really shouldn't wash chicken.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Good, because it splashes, right?

• 35:16Dan Pashman?

  It's splash, if there's bacteria on the chicken, you wash it, it's splashing little droplets of bacteria everywhere. You're not cleaning it at all.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  You just won an argument for me that I will be loving this later.

• 35:24Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, take that, there you go.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 35:28Dan Pashman?

  I'm gonna say I'm with Taylor.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:30Dan Pashman?

  I think that if you can see or taste or feel in your fingers or mouth dirt, then wash it off. Like, all I can tell you is that I had to take my younger daughter to the doctor a few months back. She had like an ear infection or something. And the doctor literally was like, wow, I never see the Pashman girls in here except for your annual physicals. You guys are never sick.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you're doing it right.

• 35:53Dan Pashman?

  Look, with the caveat that I'm not a doctor or public health professional at all.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:59Dan Pashman?

  So.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  But you have a podcast, so it's kind of the same thing now.

• 36:01Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, nobody has those. It's really hard to get them, Katie.

• 36:08Dan Pashman?

  So that's how I do it.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:09Dan Pashman?

  And my kids have good immune systems.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Taylor's got a good point. You don't have to wash it all.

• 36:14Dan Pashman?

  And anyone who, if you end up in the emergency room, because you've got some sort of bacteria, you can reach out to Katie.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  No, not liable. Wash everything, especially your hands.

• 36:31Dan Pashman?

  Well, Katie Nolan, this was a pleasure.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  The pleasure was all mine.

• 36:35Dan Pashman?

  I hope the folks will check out your new podcast, Casuals, which I really enjoy. It's a great hang. It's sports, it's culture. You have comedians, you have athletes. It's for people who are interested in sports, but also like to have fun and interested in all different things, which I think describes a lot of us.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  What a perfect pitch. Yeah, it's like if you think sports aren't for you, but you wanted to get into them, we're here to help. We just want to, I want everybody to be able to know about sports and have it feel accessible.

• 36:58Dan Pashman?

  But I also love that it's a safe space to talk about sports and Taylor Swift.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Yes, it's anything. We're talking about all of it.

• 37:04Dan Pashman?

  That defines my household.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yes, it's just, it's, sports are for everybody. And I think we do a pretty bad job of that in sports media. So the goal of Casuals is like, if you think you might like it, come here. We don't care what you know or what you don't know. We're just here to have fun about all of it.

• 37:18Dan Pashman?

  Well, it's a great show, people. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. It's called Casuals. Thanks again, Katie Nolan.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was awesome.

• 37:30Dan Pashman?

  Next week on the show, my guest is Michelle Zauner, singer and songwriter behind the band Japanese Breakfast and author of the bestselling memoir, Crying in H-Mark. While you wait for that one, check out last week's show with Laurie Wooliver. She was an assistant to Anthony Bourdain and Mario Batali. In her new book, she talks in depth about those experiences and shares her own story for the first time. That one's up now. Finally, remember that if you want to come eat pasta with me in Italy this fall, the spots are filling up. Book yours now at culinarybackstreets.com/sporkful. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more.

• 38:15Dan Pashman?

  It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer- Andres O'Hara. Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. And our intern is-

• 38:35Speaker 07

  Julia Leo.

• 38:36Dan Pashman?

  Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 38:43Speaker 07

  And I'm Janera Sanchez from Rochester, New York, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 39:01Dan Pashman?

  Thank you to our presenting sponsor, American Express. Amex Gold makes your dining experiences more rewarding so you can discover and connect more. Enjoy every meal with the benefits that come with the American Express Gold Card. For terms and to learn more, visit americanexpress.com/withamex.

• 39:19Speaker 08

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• 39:49Dan Pashman?

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