Pod Insights The Bill Simmons Podcast An NBA Fake-Trade Fiesta With Kevin O’Connor About this episode It's fake trade season! The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor of Yahoo Sports to discuss NBA teams to watch around the trade deadline, including the Mavericks, 76ers, Pelicans, Lakers, and Heat (1:20). Then, they fire off a bunch of fake NBA trades as the deadline approaches (30:22).
Host: Bill Simmons
Guest: Kevin O'Connor
Producer: Kyle Crichton
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Transcript 18,214 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Bill Simmons? Coming up, it's fake trade season. Let's go.
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2:26 Bill Simmons? We're also brought to by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did a rewatchables mailbag. I had a great time. Thanks to everybody who's sending emails. We came up with new categories, couple of theme months, slightly tweaked the structure of the show. Had some laughs. It was me and Chris Ryan and producer Craig Horbeck. If you want to watch that, it is on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel. If you want to watch anything from this podcast, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel.
2:53 Bill Simmons? We did not do a podcast Tuesday night, making up for it today with a special basketball podcast. Our old friend Kevin O'Connor is coming in. We're going to talk about a bunch of teams that are in trouble. We're going to talk about fake trades, what's realistic, what's not, where are people like Jimmy Butler going? Could there be a surprise? The trade deadline is February 6th. We're breaking all of it down. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.
3:40 Bill Simmons? All right, we're taping this. It is 4 o'clock Pacific time. There's reasons for that, which I'll get to. But I'm very excited to have Kevin O'Connor here. You might remember him from many, many, many years at The Ringer. He is now at Yahoo. We have not done a podcast during this basketball season. What better time, KOC, than fake trade season for us to reunite?
3:59 Speaker 05 Best time of the year, Bill. And I have to say, you know, you know, I called you on the phone when I left for Yahoo, but I have to thank you for everything, you know, over the years of The Ringer publicly. I have to, I have to.
4:08 Bill Simmons? Yeah, we're, we're, we're always good.
4:10 Speaker 05 Yes, of course.
4:11 Bill Simmons? So unfortunately, we had to tape this a little late on Wednesday because I was flying back from Boston this morning. And then there was a wifi issue on the plane and I'm like, is this going to work out? Am I going to be able to do a podcast today? The wifi miraculous that came back. And then I was on my iPad for hours making fake trades. And I think a couple of times the lady next to me was like, what's this guy doing? What is, what is this trade machine that he has? But before we do that, a bunch of teams I want to hit, just big picture, that kind of relate to this in some ways. Biggest one, Dallas. I think Dallas is in real trouble now. This Lively injury, it's a foot injury and they're saying out two to three months. And as I've said a million times, I never trust feet injuries.
4:55 Bill Simmons? I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is because I'm not sure they know. And I always go worst case scenario, three months takes us into the playoffs. It takes us into round one. And on top of it, Lucas hurt and I just, I, I thought Dallas was going to be there in the end. This is the first time I got worried.
5:13 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think with this lively injury, there's been some trickling out for a few days that like, oh, maybe they're going to go after a center. But I'm like, huh, maybe they want to just have some versatility in the front court. But now that we know about the injury, it completely explains why they're going for a center here. And so my question is, what type of center are they going to go for? They're going to go for another, you know, lob vertical guy like Lively, like Gafford? But if you add a third guy like that and then Lively comes back, you can't, it doesn't make any sense. Yeah, exactly. So I wonder if maybe for them, they still go after, you know, a pick and pop big or a switchable big, somebody like that to give them some front court versatility. But Gaffer looked damn good in the first half of their game on Sunday. So like the Gaffer, we
5:57 Speaker 05 know he can step his play up. So I wouldn't say, I don't think I'd go as far as you to say that they're screwed. But it is going to be a lot dependent on what they do to fill that center gap because it can't just be Gaffer. That's all they have now.
6:08 Bill Simmons? Well, they're screwed in this respect. Right now they're seventh in the West. They're 23 and 20. Doesn't look like Lucas coming back until the All-Star break. There's teams that are just settled in way ahead of them now. The top four, Oklahoma, Houston, Memphis, Denver. I just don't think they're catching any of those teams, especially with the way Denver's playing. So now you're looking at, I don't have home court advantage any round. I don't know when Lively's coming back. They also made a lot of trades already. They don't have like a shitload of assets, you know, they've already made a lot of their moves and they would have to dip into the Klay, PJ Washington, like that kind of group to improve with their new proof. So I'm sure their game plan is just going to be, we're probably going to be in that seven to 10 range. Let's hope Lively comes back. Let's hope Luca gets going. We'll be there in the end.
6:54 Bill Simmons? But pretty tough, man. If you're in those playing games and then you're on the road every round, we haven't really seen, uh, we haven't seen a lot of success with that recipe, KOC.
7:03 Speaker 05 I mean, even with a healthy Lively, I'm curious, like, do you still view them as like upper tier in the Western Conference, right on the same level as Denver, who's really come along lately?
7:13 Bill Simmons? Come along.
7:14 Speaker 05 That like, like Russell Westbrook, you've got to give the dude credit. He is playing at the best, best level that he has in years. Jamal Murray getting along better now.
7:22 Bill Simmons? Dady Chat wrote about it for us. It's the most improbable relationship we've had in the NBA this decade. Jokic and Westbrook somehow like joining forces in a positive way. I don't understand it.
7:33 Speaker 05 It's kind of crazy. Like with Russ, it didn't work with LeBron. It works sometimes with the Clippers, but not all the time. It didn't in one of their playoffs.
7:40 Bill Simmons? And not at the end.
7:42 Speaker 05 Yeah. And then with Jokic, it's like you have Jokic after the game talking about like, we can read each other's minds. Like there is some chemistry that they have. It feels like every other game, once it's Jokic and Westbrook, then it's Jokic and Murray, then it's Jokic and MPJ. It's always a different connection. Like their, their offense, sometimes I felt like it got a bit dry. Like sometimes it was always Jokic, Murray, end of game situations. But there's variety now that makes me think, wait a minute, is Denver actually just the only true contender besides OKC in the Western Conference? So they actually the team that could take them down. Cause I'm not, I'm not totally sold on Dallas anyway. I think they have too many holes. I'm still worried about Lucas' health. I mean, when you're coming back post All-Star break.
8:22 Bill Simmons? Right.
8:23 Speaker 05 With that type of injury, it's, that's the type of thing they can get hurt again. And Kyrie in and out still as well. Lot of questions there with them even prior to Lively. Um, but.
8:32 Bill Simmons? Yeah. But here's the flip side of this is why it was stupid to give up on Denver a month ago. If you have one of the best six players in the league, you just have to be taken seriously in the playoffs. So the question for me is, can he get back to the right shape? When can Lively come back? Can they sneak out? Like if they're playing Houston in round one at 2-7, they could beat Houston. I don't know if Houston has another gear. So I'm sure they're not totally panicking yet, but. It's not great, you know, and you think like Lucas 26 now, they made the finals last year. They really went all in on this season and Oklahoma City kind of took their spot. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not a full level panic. I don't like the fact that they're not going to have home court any round, every round. Uh, and I also don't know what the trade move is.
9:17 Bill Simmons? So next one is Philly, who is borderline shut it down territory. But you also look at the East and it's like, yeah, they could make the playing game. And what if they have those guys in mid-April and they're all healthy? And I don't really know what the answer is, but the, the big thing is their first pick is top six protected, which everybody's been talking about all week. And I, I thought about how OKC gets that pick, right? If it's like seventh in a really good draft, then I'm sure, I'm sure you've been, become fascinated by. This is the Sam Presti revenge on Daryl Morey. The James Harden trade 2012, right? And it became this thing that, that became, became this curse over OKC. And they never got to the finals and Daryl kind of made his career in a lot of ways.
10:00 Bill Simmons? The flip side of this, OKC gets this pick because Philly has to dump Al Horford. Right? And now this pick is paralyzing Philly with their decisions because you maybe want to just throw away the season and yet you can if Embiid is going to be healthy in two weeks. So what do you do if you're Philly?
10:19 Speaker 05 I don't think you can throw away the season. You can't, like, like you said, with Embiid, if he's healthy, they've been good after he got back in December. Granted, he's missed a lot of time since then, but if Embiid's healthy, you know, you're competitive. The problem is the fact that you get Paul George and you're saying, well, he's just going to be better than Tobias Harris. He's going to be way better than Harris that has been for us. And then he looks like Tobias Harris for you. And so if Paul George is actually.
10:45 Bill Simmons? Is that an insult to Tobias Harris? I'm not, I'm not sure.
10:49 Speaker 05 Yeah, it is because Tobias Harris was very average, below average with the Sixers. And he's been pretty good with the Pistons.
10:55 Bill Simmons? No, but I'm saying is Tobias Harris listening to this, it'd be like, yo, I've been better than Paul George. At least that player.
11:01 Speaker 05 That, that would be fair if, if he did say that he's at least been on the court. Well, with Paul George, he just looks like a complete shell of his former self. So if the Paul George decline is beginning, and this isn't just an off year at 35, 36 years old, whatever he is, you have to take advantage of these years, especially if like Embiid is healthy come April, and you sneak in as the seven or the eight seed. You can't waste the year.
11:25 Bill Simmons? They're gonna be the seven or the eight seed. They're gonna be nine or 10, but they could still sneak in because they'd have to win two playing games.
11:31 Speaker 05 Yeah, that's what I mean. If they win the two playing games and they sneak in in that case and there's the seven or eight. Like you gotta, you have to go for that possibility. You can't completely tank out here. But if Embiid doesn't come back, moving up in the lottery is your silver lining here for Philadelphia. That, that, but I don't think you can tank for that. It's not worth doing that. You at least have to go for it. Otherwise it's another year wasted. And for Daryl Morey in the front office as well, and Nick Nurse as head coach, that could mean your job too. If they do miss the playoffs and if next year they go into things and it's not better, you might not get another job anytime soon. So I don't think they have much of a choice but to go for it now.
12:08 Bill Simmons? We have hit fall guy range.
12:12 Bill Simmons? And it's gonna be either Nurse or Daryl. And I don't know which one it's gonna be, but we're very close at this point.
12:18 Speaker 05 And those guys don't play hard for Nurse at all.
12:21 Bill Simmons? No, they don't seem like they, it just, we've seen this happen over the course of the NBA history. Like, like Don Nelson was a great coach. He took over the Ewing Knicks at one point in the mid 90s and I think he lasted like 45 games. It just didn't work. I don't know if it's that bad for them. But when you don't have two of your best three guys basically never playing. You know, they had this huge stretch last week. It was like four and five against all good teams.
12:47 Bill Simmons? And Embiid missed all the games and then he missed, and then they were like, he's probably out at least another week. If you look at their schedule, any game where he would come back, it's a good team. If there's like always like a Boston or a Cleveland, there's some, somebody on there. And I just, I don't think he's gonna come back until he's healthy. I think, I don't think he wants to come back at his ass kick. So I don't know if you're Nick Nurse, what do you do on that? But the Paul George piece is the shocking thing. I guess we should have known, he's been in the league a while, that it was possible, but. I don't know. He was always hit or miss, but he hit and he's not hitting anymore. There's it's more misses or I forgot you were out there than hits.
13:23 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, at the least, at a minimum, he was a far better spot up shooter than Tobias Harris. Like he was always above 40% from three. Tobias Harris was very streaky and consistent and lower volume. This year, Paul George, only 35% from three, has not been a knockdown guy on top of, you know, just stinking it up, end of game situations, losing control of the ball in the final minutes of games, some real careless turnovers and the defense is not at a lockdown level for that matter either. So like the things that you thought at a minimum, we're getting elite defender and knockdown shooter, who can sometimes go off, you're not even getting the role player stuff from here right now. And so that's where you're Philadelphia. If he's not producing,
14:05 Speaker 05 I don't know if there's an answer for you to solve that at all with this roster. You were banking on Paul George. You waited for him in free agency. That's what the whole plan was, was to go out and get Paul George for seven months. This was the plan. So if he's not working out, nobody's going to take him for that matter.
14:21 Bill Simmons? Who do you think's the most relieved? Orlando, the Clippers? I wonder who else would have been in the mix on that?
14:28 Speaker 05 Well, Golden State was in the mix for Paul George too.
14:30 Bill Simmons? Golden State. Oh, yeah.
14:32 Speaker 05 But at the same time, can you be relieved if you're them though? You're super average this year.
14:37 Bill Simmons? Yeah, you're a 5-15 team.
14:39 Speaker 05 Yeah. So Philly needs to use those picks though. They have four tradable picks. They need to use those, I'd say.
14:44 Bill Simmons? Would you use McCain? Who's out for the year?
14:49 Speaker 05 I don't know. He looks pretty damn good, Phil.
14:52 Bill Simmons? Long-term McCain maxi is your backcourt? Does that, is that a backcourt that makes sense to you from a basketball standpoint?
14:57 Speaker 05 It's too, it's too small.
14:59 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
14:59 Speaker 05 It's too small, but I think McCain's value would only go up to me. I mean, I think like everybody talks about Jimmy Butler as a, as a guy to Phoenix and you know, all these other teams, nobody ever mentions Philly. What if Philly offered three firsts with Paul George to reunite Jimmy Butler with Joel Embiid? Maybe you don't do that if you're Philly. Maybe you keep your tradable picks and go elsewhere, but I'm just throwing the idea out there and maybe Miami rolls the dice with Paul George as a longer term salary.
15:27 Bill Simmons? I have Paul George coming up later when we get to the fake trade section of this podcast, because it's a fascinating topic.
15:35 Bill Simmons? So we agree Philly's not shutting it down. They still have a chance to be a nine or a 10 seed. If they can get all of those guys healthy for two months, that's still the plan. And if I'm Daryl Morey, like that's a better chance than keeping my fingers crossed in the lottery. Okay. Next one. New Orleans is in what the fuck land where they suck, but now that all their guys are back, they're actually like, pretty solid and really talented and Trey Murphy's been playing great. And they might be too talented to be a full tank team, a la Brooklyn and teams like that. They have some good trade assets. Ingram is an expiring, is hurt right now. Zion, year to year, he can get out. CJ McCollum, overpriced, but reasonable to, for somebody who needs a scoring
16:20 Bill Simmons? something. And then I guess Murray, their roster doesn't really make sense. I don't even know what the move is. What do they do? What do you do if you're running New Orleans?
16:32 Speaker 05 I think you just keep it going. Honestly, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily tank it out unless you're getting a really, really good deal from McCollum.
16:39 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
16:40 Speaker 05 I think trading CJ McCollum would definitely be top of my list, aside from the obvious Ingram.
16:45 Bill Simmons? See, now he's gonna be upset at me again because he thinks I always throw him in trade rumors.
16:50 Speaker 05 I mean, nobody's wanted Ingram for a year and a half.
16:53 Bill Simmons? Especially now that he's hurt. Yeah.
16:54 Speaker 05 Yes. Is that gonna change in the next three weeks here? With McCollum, at least he has had some banger performances as of late. He's looked healthy. He looks very good for them right now. So maybe you're trading McCollum. The issue is the fact that he's a tough guy to trade at $33 million this year. He's still a smaller, smaller guard. So for New Orleans, part of me, Bill, looks at this as a year in which your horrible start with Zion missing time, keeps you in the lottery. It's gonna keep you having good draft odds. So if you do.
17:26 Bill Simmons? And they have the Lakers pick.
17:28 Speaker 05 Yes. So if you win towards the end of the season, maybe you actually have some clarity on what you want to do heading into the summer. So I'm not totally against keeping things together because you're gonna have a lottery pick anyway. Like it's, you're not gonna get into the play in. It's, you're too far back right now. So I'm okay with keeping things together right now. And if Zion is, you know, back to prime Zion for the whole rest of the season.
17:49 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
17:49 Speaker 05 I think that maybe gives you, you know, an idea of what you want to do in the summer if you're the Pelicans versus dumping things right now, just for slightly higher odds.
17:56 Bill Simmons? You just stumbled into the answer. These next two months are about building back Zion up as a genuine asset and then trying to get out of that. Get out of that situation as fast as you can.
18:07 Speaker 05 So you're still ejecting from the Zion situation?
18:10 Bill Simmons? I am. To me, if he's healthy for two months, that trade, trade when the value's high. They're 11 wins or 11 losses behind Phoenix for the 10 seed.
18:21 Speaker 05 That's crazy.
18:21 Bill Simmons? So there's no scenario where they catch fire, unfortunately.
18:26 Bill Simmons? One of the things about trading McCollum is then you could play Jordan Hawkins more. It's weird. They're, they're deep, but they also have a terrible record. They make no sense as, as a team of assets. Anyway.
18:39 Bill Simmons? Next one.
18:41 Bill Simmons? I didn't know it was going to be today. What's today's day? January 22nd? I thought it was going to be after the Celtics game, the next day when we celebrated the annual Lakers holiday, passive aggressive trade day, when some report comes out that LeBron and AD or just LeBron aren't happy with the roster. It happened today. It was January 22nd. I wish I had had FanDuel put odds with all the different days in January when it was going to happen, but it happened today. LeBron and AD apparently really want them to improve the roster. They're not that happy with it.
19:13 Bill Simmons? I don't know what the move is, KOC. When you're paying those two guys 100 plus million dollars a year and you have Reeves, your roster's pretty good. And maybe look in the mirror a little bit. And I went through everybody. I don't, if it's Rui and Vanderbilt and Vincent and two firsts, I don't even know what you're getting. Who's available? If it's a top 50 player, nobody wants to trade a top 50 player. So you're looking at people like Zach Levine. And if they got Zach Levine, I just don't think they're a contender in the West. They would have the same problems they have anywhere where they can't guard anybody. I would never, Reeves is a hang up for me if somebody called about Reeves at 12 billion a year. It's like, yeah, I'm sure you do want Austin Reeves. Fuck off. Hang up.
19:55 Bill Simmons? I don't know what the move is for them. I don't know how they're a title contender and I have some ideas zagging the other way, but what do you think?
20:03 Speaker 05 If you're trying to add, which I don't think they're going to go the other way. Walker Kessler is a center. Try to go get him from Utah, then you can play two big lineups.
20:12 Bill Simmons? Are you winning four rounds if you make a Walker Kessler trade? No.
20:15 Speaker 05 Just, just one of the names. You, you can trade two picks, you can trade multiple swaps. You do have some tradable salaries. So maybe that's one of the guys you go for. And I don't know if you and I feel the same way about this guy, Bill, but I think everything Zach Levine has done this year.
20:33 Bill Simmons? Forget about last year.
20:34 Speaker 05 Okay. So like to me, like if you're able to put a package together for Zach Levine, and it's a tough deal, it probably have to be a three way. But if you go get Zach Levine and add him to the bunch with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, if you're able to go get a five. Like Walker Kessler, you have Dorian Finney Smith already, you have Austin Reeves. Like suddenly you have like a really good top six, top seven with a lot of dynamic scoring ability, versatility on defense, different lineup configurations that you can play. So I think the Lakers should be adding, they should try to trade their 29 and 31. They should try to trade their swaps. They should try to go for something here.
21:13 Bill Simmons? If I was a Laker fan, I would be losing my mind at this. Like really, we're, we're going to mortgage basically the next six years so we can fulfill this charade that we're a title contender? And no chance against Oklahoma City.
21:27 Speaker 05 What if you slightly protect those picks?
21:30 Bill Simmons? I wouldn't do it. I would zag the other way. And if Reeves is in a trade, they're just flat out stupid.
21:35 Speaker 05 What's the other way? Does that mean trading AD, trading LeBron?
21:38 Bill Simmons? I have an AD idea.
21:40 Speaker 05 Okay.
21:41 Bill Simmons? I think they should think about zagging the other way and trading AD. And you know, it's a really interesting thing to bring up to Laker fans because I think they're grateful they won the title in 2020. But I also feel like they don't want to lose the entire decade trying to pretend that they can win a title with these two guys as their best players because they can't. You know, and you watch them. First of all, did you see that stat about? How their, their, uh, their record versus what the record actually is, like how far the the expected win rate or whatever that stat is, which backs up what I've watched like. They've lucked out with some schedule stuff. I don't think they're that good and I think they know they're not that good. Whatever their record is, you're like, they're gonna play the Celtics tomorrow night.
22:23 Bill Simmons? And LeBron will have his A game and they're just not good enough defensively if the Celtics play well. Granted, the Celtics can go seven for 50 from three and get smoked in a second game back to back, but. Defensively, they're just not good enough and I don't know if Walker Kessler is changing that.
22:38 Speaker 05 Yeah. If you look at the, the teams in the NBA right now with 23 plus wins. The only two teams with a negative point differential are Magic minus point five and the Lakers minus two.
22:50 Bill Simmons? And the Magic lost their two best players for most of the season.
22:54 Speaker 05 Yes. Yep. And the Lakers, they, they're the only team in the West top six right now with a negative. Plus minus on the entire season.
23:01 Bill Simmons? I just don't see it. I, I, I would not. Give away the rest of the future just because LeBron. Wants a better team. You know, part of it is. You insisted on the Anthony Davis trade. You guys won a title for it. You gave away all of these assets. You struck oil with Reeves. That was one of the luckiest things. That could have happened to any team to get a guy is, was he undrafted or a second rounder? He was undrafted, right?
23:29 Speaker 05 Uh, I'm pretty sure he went undrafted. Yeah.
23:31 Bill Simmons? Yeah. And then they get him on this crazy contract because he didn't go out and shop himself. So he's like 12 billion a year for. You know, that's one of the best contracts in the league. So if you just look at those three things and the role players they have, you would think they would be better than they, than they are, but. Can't guard anybody. Uh, last team is Miami.
23:50 Bill Simmons? So the Butler thing is. This is about as bad of a player team situation as we've had in a while. It's also the NBA I grew up with where stars would just get mad at teams, stars miss planes. You know, even dating going into the 2000s, this would happen with people like Vince Carter. I don't know what his trade value is anymore and I don't. Think you probably do either. I don't know what he's worth. I can't decide because he can opt in next year. He's such a headache. He's 35. You know, they have to trade him. Why am I offering anything for him?
24:22 Speaker 05 And he also hasn't done anything since game two of the East Finals against the Celtics two years ago in 2023. Like he was inefficient the rest of that series, inefficient against Denver. He's missed time the last two years for, you know, suspensions, for being a malcontent, for injuries, for age. I don't know like what he's actually worth at this point for all those reasons. So I don't even know if I'd want to trade for him if I'm the Suns. I get the appeal. He's better than Bradley Beal. If you're gonna, you're obviously, they're gonna continue trying to build this thing up.
24:52 Bill Simmons? If that's the trade, you're doing that.
24:54 Speaker 05 Yes. If it's Bradley Beal, you're doing that.
24:57 Bill Simmons? Bradley Beal for Butler straight up, which would be just an insane trade for Miami to make. I don't know why they would take on an extra year of Bradley Beal.
25:04 Speaker 05 But that's why you have like all these rumors trickling out about how it could be a four or five team trade. Cause it's like somebody else would be taking Beal on this situation and.
25:15 Bill Simmons? I actually figured out what that trade would be. This wasn't one of my fake trades.
25:20 Speaker 05 I got one too for, uh, for this one. I want to know if they came up with the same thing.
25:23 Bill Simmons? But the, the part that has to be true is A, Beal would want to waive his no trade clause to go to Milwaukee, which I find hard to believe. B, Milwaukee would want Bradley Beal for this year and the next two. So that you just have to like assume that that might be true. I don't think it is.
25:37 Speaker 05 Doesn't have to be the Bucks for Beal.
25:39 Bill Simmons? Well, I'm just, the, the trade I came up with was Butler to the Suns, Beal to the Bucks. Miami gets Chris Middleton, Steven Adams from Houston and Cam Whitmore from Houston and Houston gets Brook Lopez. And that actually works. So Houston would be taking on, yeah, seven, eight million to turn Adams and Whitmore into Lopez, basically. And then all the contracts work.
26:02 Speaker 05 Bucks just get Beal?
26:03 Bill Simmons? Bucks just get Beal. That's it.
26:06 Speaker 05 I see. I'm saying no if I'm the Bucks.
26:08 Bill Simmons? I think I am too.
26:09 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
26:09 Bill Simmons? But I think when people talk about four teamers, five teamers. It's a trade like that, and I think a team like Houston has to be involved getting, turning Adams and one of their, you know, younger, cheaper assets into a better center.
26:24 Speaker 05 Here's what I got for the Jimmy Butler five-way deal. I got Suns get Butler.
26:28 Bill Simmons? Five-way?
26:30 Speaker 05 Five-way. Suns get Butler, Heat get Chris Middleton and Pat Connaughton.
26:35 Bill Simmons? Okay.
26:35 Speaker 05 Bulls get Bradley Beal, Bucks get Zach Levine, and then the Pistons take Bobby Portis into their cap space. And then you distribute some picks to the teams that should get them, like the Bulls for taking Beal instead of Levine. But that would be the players that work salary-wise. And so you got Beal, maybe he'd waive his no-trade clause, get reunited with his college coach, Billy Donovan, you know, restore his career there. Who knows what his logic would be going there, but I don't think there's many teams that Beal would waive his no-trade clause for. And I thought it was very, very interesting that Mark Bartlestein, his agent, came out again publicly tonight. It's the second time he's spoken publicly about Beal.
27:16 Speaker 05 And he listed a bunch of teams, the Lakers, the Bucks, the Heat, all these teams he's not waiving his no-trade clause for. The Bulls weren't mentioned. And so that might be because the Bulls aren't a team that a lot of people are talking about publicly in this whole scenario. But you do have the other stuff reported earlier on Thursday about the Bucks looking at Zach Levine. I don't think the Bucks would want Beal either. He's not necessarily an upgrade over this diminished version of Chris Middleton, but Zach Levine damn well is an upgrade over what you have in Middleton right now. So maybe Beal to the Bulls is something that could make sense there, uh, which is why I came up with those five teams. And the Pistons is the fifth team. You could put other teams there, but they're the one with cap space, so it's just easy.
27:58 Bill Simmons? That's good work, KOC. Here's, he would be my, uh, my counter. Why would, I don't understand why the Bulls have to get rid of Zach Levine. He's played really well this year. I actually think he's an asset.
28:10 Speaker 05 I'd want to keep him.
28:11 Bill Simmons? We did the Ringer 100. I had him like in the 30s. I, I've watched him single-handedly beat like the Knicks, the Celtics. Like he's, the better the competition is, the more he goes up a level. If I was Milwaukee and I could turn Chris Middleton, another contract into Zach Levine, I'm doing that in five seconds. And he's way better than Bradley Beal. He, and plus he plays.
28:32 Speaker 05 Yes. If I'm the Suns, I'd probably rather get Zach Levine than Jimmy Butler.
28:37 Bill Simmons? I think you're right.
28:38 Speaker 05 I mean, I'd like Jimmy Butler, obviously, he's proven it in the playoffs. He was younger at that time. Zach Levine also has not been in those situations, but if you remove last year, when he was out for the season with a foot injury, he's been awesome since 2020.
28:53 Bill Simmons? Been awesome. And he has, and this year he has the ball a lot, which is like for the Lakers, he makes no sense because he's not going to have the ball nearly as much and he can't play defense. Right? So if you're trading for him, it has to be a situation like the Rockets won't do it, but he's somebody that makes a ton of sense for me if I'm the Rockets, even though he'd hurt a little defensively. He's somebody in the last five minutes of a game can actually like match baskets with whoever the best player on the other team is. I think that's his superpower. Not a lot of guys, like the Suns don't necessarily need that, right? But if you're talking about the Bucks, who already have Dame and Giannis, but you're improving the Middleton spot with him, basically the way Middleton's been playing this year, like,
29:36 Bill Simmons? I think about it. I like, I, we're aligned though. I think Levine's been good. I hate seeing him get thrown into these trades like he's not an asset. I think he's an asset.
29:47 Speaker 05 It makes no sense. I mean, I just pulled up some numbers prior to the recording, Bill, just, just because like with Levine, a lot of people still think he's like some diminished asset, but four of the last five years, if you remove last season, 45% on catch and shoot threes, 37% on dribble jumper threes, 45% on mid-range jumpers, 63% on unassisted shots at the rim. He's caught 26 lob dunks. That's the fourth most of all guards in the NBA. So he's versatile. We know he's a great athlete. He's an elite shooter off the dribble and off the catch. He's versatile with how he gets to those shots, screens and handoffs, pick and roll. He can shoot from mid-range. He can do a lot for your offense and fit into different roles at this point. So just like, I just forget about last year. He's been injury
30:32 Speaker 05 prone, but last year was the only year where it actually affected his performance ever since 2020. So to me, if I'm the Bulls, I'd be happy to keep him. I know that creates some roster fit issues with Kobe White and all that. Maybe you end up flipping him instead, Toby White's also on a value contract, but Levine's been awesome, dude. I just, I can't, I can't understand why he's still viewed as some horrible asset at this point.
30:56 Bill Simmons? The only reason to trade him is if you feel like your team doctors who have spent a lot of time with them are like, so high right now. This is, this is, this is it. He's going to get hurt in two months. That's the only reason.
31:06 Speaker 05 Maybe you do. Maybe, maybe that's what it ends up being. Like if the Lakers say, we'll give you two unprotected firsts. If, if the Suns say, we'll give you Bradley Beal and two, two, two or three firsts that we just received in that really interesting deal with the Jazz.
31:21 Bill Simmons? I would keep him. I think he's going to be worth more, especially like next year, there'll only be two years left on his deal. They're going to be a playing team unless Philly can catch them. And I wouldn't want to play that game in a winner takes all, that team in a winner take all, where all of a sudden it's a tie game with five minutes left and Zach Levine is doing some of the stuff we've seen him do this year. All right. We're aligned on that. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back. Fake trade time.
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32:35 Bill Simmons? Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new workday. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle.
33:19 Bill Simmons? Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault. You're gonna want WeatherTech. For American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. All right, I have some fake trades that I don't think will happen, but I thought would be fun to throw at you. And then I want to hit a couple that I do think could happen, should happen, probably won't happen, but at least are realistic. Trade number one. Bradley Beal for Paul George, straight up. Who says no?
33:54 Speaker 05 Bradley Beal says no.
33:56 Bill Simmons? Bradley Beal says no, that's right. All right, let's say he didn't have no trade clause.
34:01 Speaker 05 Okay.
34:01 Bill Simmons? So Bradley Beal has two years left after this year. Paul George has three. The Sixers called Phoenix and said, we'll give you Paul George right now for Beal. The Suns were like, really? Okay, and they decided to do it. Beal has that connection with Embiid. Remember, Embiid was pushing for him a couple of years ago.
34:22 Bill Simmons? I think Phoenix blinks faster with a no than Philly in that trade.
34:29 Speaker 05 I think both say no in the end.
34:32 Bill Simmons? Right.
34:32 Speaker 05 Philly needs that big wing. They have enough guards. They have, you know, Maxey, McCain's out for the year, but they still have him.
34:39 Bill Simmons? So you think they say no faster?
34:41 Speaker 05 I think Philly says no faster, but both end up saying no.
34:44 Bill Simmons? I think Phoenix says no faster, but who knows? All right, next one. Three-teamer.
34:51 Bill Simmons? How this is. Miami gets Kevin Durant.
34:57 Bill Simmons? Philly gets Jimmy Butler.
35:01 Bill Simmons? Phoenix gets Joel Embiid and a 2029 first and Philly gets a 2029 first. Philly's just out of the Embiid business.
35:10 Bill Simmons? They turned Embiid in a 2029 first from Miami into Jimmy Butler and they're just out. Never gonna happen.
35:23 Speaker 05 Philly says no. Philly's like, no, you can't give up on Embiid today.
35:28 Bill Simmons? It leads me to this question. Would Philly ever consider trading Embiid? A. B. Would anyone consider trading for Embiid when he plays 40 games a year max? Is he untradeable? Is he tradable? I have no idea.
35:43 Speaker 05 I think Embiid, I think the Sixers would consider trading Embiid this summer. Right now, today, I don't think they would. I just don't think you can today, but this summer, absolutely you could. He starts a whole new contract, $59 million next season. Then 64 and then 69, the next three years guaranteed.
36:04 Bill Simmons? Can you imagine Josh Harris, who also owns Washington, who's playing for the NFC title on Sunday? And he gets like a call about Sixers and he's just like, I don't even care. Like just whatever. Just don't make any trades. Like I'll deal with that this summer. I just care about football. That's it. Sixers are a loss. Get them out of here. By the way, that, you know, Bob Myers helped Washington with the football team, right? He was on that advisory committee and he, and I just feel like he's looming with the Sixers thing. And I don't think I'm alone. There's been some Bob Myers Philly buzz that I think has been building. Cause I think he had a good experience with Josh Harris. Have you heard this?
36:40 Speaker 05 Very interesting. Now, the only thing I heard of Bob Myers is that the Sonics could be a team when they expand. Whenever the NBA is gonna do that.
36:47 Bill Simmons? I think Bob Myers is lurking in general, but I would not. If there is a fall guy, which we talked about earlier, it's gonna be Nick Nurse and Daryl Morey. Unfortunately, uh, the fact that Bob Myers is, yeah, maybe it's both. One thing that Bob Myers does builds the culture. That's what he was famous for, the Warriors. And you bring him into Philly. So if it gets really bad, I just wouldn't be surprised. All right. So we both think.
37:12 Speaker 05 Is Bill, is Bob a tear down, tear down guy? Like if he did get hired by the Sixers, was he somebody to reset things or would he try to make it work for Embiid?
37:20 Bill Simmons? I think he's a, how do we get this to a better place all the way around guy? Before we decide to blow this up would be my guess.
37:27 Speaker 05 That's what I'm thinking too. Yeah.
37:30 Bill Simmons? Okay, so we both think Embiid, nothing happens until this summer. I think more because the rest of the league would be like, yeah, cool. Embiid, no thanks. Third trade. Do we think Brandon Ingram has any value?
37:44 Speaker 05 Not really. Very little.
37:47 Bill Simmons? Making like 33, something like that, but it's expiring.
37:52 Speaker 05 I think the value is New Orleans takes back a contract with another year on it and you get a pick as well. But Ingram himself, the injuries, the iffy production, not a lot of value and just not a lot of time left on his contract for that matter either.
38:06 Bill Simmons? If you're Detroit, would you rather have Ingram for one year or Tobias Harris for two?
38:11 Speaker 05 I'm liking it with Tobias Harris. I don't think I'd want to screw up that chemistry right now.
38:15 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I think that's the right answer. All right. So I'm going to get rid of them in that trade. And I'm going to knock it down to.
38:24 Bill Simmons? Is there something with San Antonio McCollum? Sorry CJ, I threw you into a trade. McCollum. San Antonio has Trey Jones expiring, Zach Collins, this year, next year, like 16 million.
38:39 Bill Simmons? They have a little wiggle room where they could actually make a trade and take a bigger salary back. So there's ways to finagle it where they're basically just giving up an expiring Collins who is a guy next year they could give up. They have a million picks.
38:53 Bill Simmons? I want to see the Spurs add one or two guys and that's going to be a recurring theme for the rest of my fake trades. There's another version of this where it could be McCollum and Ingram together.
39:05 Bill Simmons? Going from New Orleans to San Antonio and then New Orleans gets Jones, Collins, Harrison Barnes expiring. And at least one 2025 first. I want to see San Antonio do something. Wemby's that if you have a top seven player. You can't pretend you don't have a top seven player. If you have tradable stuff and a million picks, like what's wrong with with at least tweaking it and going forward a little bit?
39:33 Speaker 05 Is it possible you don't want to be too good too soon?
39:37 Bill Simmons? Why?
39:38 Speaker 05 To disperse? I mean, what's wrong with having, you know, another lottery pick this year? In a, in a draft where you can take Cooper flag if you end up getting lucky with the five or 6% chance with your lottery odds?
39:50 Bill Simmons? There, it's impossible to go under 500, Wemby. What's their record now?
39:55 Speaker 05 19 and 22.
39:57 Bill Simmons? All right, so.
39:58 Speaker 05 10th best odds, 3% chance at the number one pick, which is unlikely, but.
40:03 Bill Simmons? So you're saying there's right now, there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven teams they're definitely not catching from a loss standpoint, plus Philly.
40:14 Speaker 05 I mean, I'd like to see them add two for, but the right pieces McCollum, point guard in his 30s. I'm, I'm iffy there and I don't love the Ingram fit with.
40:25 Bill Simmons? Okay, so you wouldn't do anything. That's why I put it in the, I'm not sure I would do this camp.
40:28 Speaker 05 I, I, I wouldn't do that. There's other stuff I think I would do from the Spurs, but I wouldn't do that.
40:33 Bill Simmons? Okay. Well, I have another Spurs trade for you.
40:37 Speaker 05 Okay.
40:38 Bill Simmons? This will never happen. I just want to, none of these four trades I did, none of them are happening.
40:42 Speaker 05 Do you have a Zion one?
40:43 Bill Simmons? Fun exercise.
40:44 Speaker 05 I'd think about Zion. That'd be fun.
40:46 Bill Simmons? Well, Zion's coming later.
40:48 Speaker 05 Okay.
40:50 Bill Simmons? This is the official blow it up trade for Philly. Where San Antonio gets Paul George, Kyle Lowry and Tyrese Maxey.
40:58 Speaker 05 Oof. Wow.
41:02 Bill Simmons? Philly gets Barnes, Zach Collins, Jones, Kelvin Johnson, CP3, and a slew of firsts. Like just San Antonio, like six firsts, seven firsts, whatever you do. And basically Philly just gets out of this whole thing. They do the super tank and they sell high on Maxey knowing they have McCain. This will never happen. I just want to do it as a thought experiment.
41:26 Speaker 05 Maxey, Wemby, that's what I'm talking about.
41:28 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
41:29 Speaker 05 That's what I'm talking about.
41:30 Bill Simmons? Yeah. San Antonio overpays. They pay 140 cents on the dollar, 170 cents on the dollar with all the extra picks they have, just with the end game being Maxey, Castle, Wemby, Vassell, and this is our team going forward. It'll never happen. You kind of like this one.
41:49 Speaker 05 Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I mean, I'm into it. It's kind of like the same reason why I liked Reed Shepherd for them in the draft because I want that shooting, smaller, quick guard, speedy guy to pair with Victor. I mean, I know the Chris Paul stuff is working. I get it. It looks good.
42:04 Bill Simmons? Forty.
42:05 Speaker 05 But he moves so slow. He can't get into the paint anymore. I think Wemby should be getting a lot more lob opportunities than he's been able to, but that's because Chris Paul is very slow and he's not able to beat guys off the dribble and defense because defenses can just switch. You wouldn't be able to do that as much if it's Maxey or somebody like that.
42:23 Bill Simmons? You, you would, would you still have Shepherd over Castle with that pick?
42:28 Speaker 05 I think so. I think so.
42:30 Bill Simmons? Really? I love Castle. I'm all in on that dude.
42:34 Speaker 05 I mean, it was so close for me between those guys. I think I had it, uh, Shepherd, Castle, Klingon. It was, you know, it's a one A one B.
42:41 Bill Simmons? Who do you have number one in a redraft now? Just throw all the teams out. Who do you think the best asset is?
42:48 Speaker 05 I don't know if I'd change that right at this point right now. I think I'd keep, keep those three.
42:52 Bill Simmons? Was it Reed Shepherd's 49 point performance in the G League that won you over?
42:56 Speaker 05 Yeah. Yeah.
42:59 Bill Simmons? Why do you think he hasn't been better in Houston?
43:01 Speaker 05 I just think it's a lack of playing time. They just have too many guys.
43:04 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
43:05 Speaker 05 I mean, who's he gonna?
43:05 Bill Simmons? I kept all my stock. I haven't sold an ounce of Reed Shepherd stock, but I love Castle.
43:10 Speaker 05 Yeah, Castle, Castle's awesome.
43:11 Bill Simmons? I would take in Castle first heading into the draft. I would take him first now. I love how competitive he is. I feel like he's getting better. I think physically in like four years, I think he's just going to be like, just a beast. I can't wait to see how he grows.
43:26 Speaker 05 If they, like, let's say they got that Maxey deal or whoever the, the small guard is. Castle can be like your Iguodala type to like Stephen Curry. Like he does, he does everything for your team. He can defend every position, cut, spot up, screen, sometimes run pick and roll, handle the offense for you. The Castle's just like a total true Swiss army knife for that roster. I don't know. I love him. He's perfect with Victor, perfect for the Spurs.
43:52 Bill Simmons? They're gonna look out at some point. There's gonna be a team going sideways that wants to rebuild and trades their expensive point guard. You know, could it, three weeks ago, you could have said maybe it's Sacramento, but they kind of righted the ship a little bit. But at some point, there's gonna be somebody with some leverage and a team that is ready to, uh, To blow it up. Anyway, that trade's never happening, so don't aggregate it. Did you have a fake trade that's never happening, but you still were enchanted by it?
44:19 Speaker 05 Um, let's see on my lists. Uh, I mean, I, I think most of mine, maybe you could say there's a chance. So none of them, I would say are super crazy.
44:28 Bill Simmons? Put them in the year saying a chance. All right. Let's move into trades we could actually see happening, even though if they probably won't. I'll get you. What's your first one?
44:36 Speaker 05 All right. First one, Orlando Magic, Anthony Simons to the Magic for Cole Anthony, Jett Howard and one first round pick going to the Blazers. So you upgrade over Cole Anthony with Anthony Simons, younger guy as well, um, that still fits the, the roster for you moving forward in Orlando. And Portland gets Jett Howard, maybe he turns into something, a future pick, and they get some salary relief as well. Since you're gonna have Cole Anthony, Jett Howard in pieces rather than that big Simons deal in the $25 million range.
45:08 Bill Simmons? And Simons has some Orlando connections, I think.
45:10 Speaker 05 Yes, he's from Florida.
45:12 Bill Simmons? There's always, he's always been rumored in it's a possible magic thing.
45:16 Speaker 05 And for Portland, it's all like an all in, you know, let's get a full look at Scoot. Scoot's been better as of late. He showed signs of life. So that's part of it. That's part of it.
45:26 Bill Simmons? He's shown signs of life. All right. There's been life.
45:29 Speaker 05 That's part of it for Portland here. It's like you have Simons who's taking a lot of those touches. He's absorbing a lot of those minutes. Cole Anthony, great chemistry, chemistry guy for the Magic. That's one reason why you wouldn't want to move him. But he could be that in Portland, too. He could be the backup spark plug point guard. Simons is actually deserving of a bigger role. So I think he could get that with the Magic that he can't get with Portland because you still need to invest in Scoot if you're the Blazers, despite all the ups and downs.
45:55 Bill Simmons? I think what we've seen the last five, six games, which I've been monitoring very closely. And plus the Billups quotes too. Billups seems like really fired up about him all of a sudden. But stuff's clicking, things are happening. They're starting to move the team toward him. They're also in the tanking situation, so it's perfect. Just let him make his mistakes, but I'm with you. They probably, Simons probably needs to go for the Scoot piece. I don't know what he's worth. So if you're saying like Orlando gives up a first, that's going to be a bottom half of the first round first, unless it's this year's draft because their record isn't as nearly as good as it would have been because of all the injuries. So they have, they own their own first the next six years. I would probably want this year's first from them if I traded Simons.
46:40 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think so too.
46:42 Bill Simmons? Because going forward, they're probably going to be a top eight or nine team. So, all right, that's a fun one. My first one, I want to get Cam Johnson, who's been floated around a lot. Brooklyn clearly wants to trade him. I've decided Detroit should be the team that gets him. And Detroit has the Tim Hardaway expiring. They have a weird situation with their pick because New York owns their pick. So it's like protected and it just keeps rolling over, but then you can't trade 2025 or 26 because eventually it'll be realized in 27. So I was thinking, I wonder how the Knicks would help them out and remove their protections from the pick so that Detroit could trade this year's pick, try to get Cam Johnson and
47:24 Bill Simmons? maybe the other Knicks pick. Then I started thinking, you don't see teams do this this much, but what if the Knicks traded Mitchell Robinson to Detroit as part of the deal? And as part of the deal, they got this giant trade exception and they forfeited their rights to the Detroit first and they got Dayron Sharp back from, uh, from the Nets and they just got a backup center making $10 million less than Robinson. And then the Nets will be like, we'll give you D'Angelo Russell too. He's available. And the Knicks are going, no thanks. But is there something there where it could be a three team or not a two, the Knicks could get something out of it, cut some salary, create an exception?
48:05 Bill Simmons? Maybe it's just Cam Johnson for Tim Hardaway and a pick and it's a later pick. But do you, is there something there? Cause I feel like there is. I would like the Pistons. I want to see them get better.
48:16 Speaker 05 I mean, it's complicated. Um, so like I would I'm just trying to figure out the salaries here. So Mitchell Robinson, to be clear, he's going to
48:25 Bill Simmons? He's 14 million. Detroit could actually take it because
48:31 Speaker 05 To Detroit.
48:31 Bill Simmons? Because they're way under the cap, right?
48:33 Speaker 05 Well, they have the cap. Yeah. Well, if they're taking in Cam Johnson, they won't be under the cap, though.
48:39 Bill Simmons? I did it in the trade machine and it all worked because uh there's trade exception stuff too. Anyway, it could just be Cam Johnson and Hardaway in a pick and we make we could make it easier because that works too.
48:52 Speaker 05 But I'm intrigued. I mean, regardless of the surrounding pieces, the idea of Cam Johnson on the Pistons makes a lot of sense.
49:00 Bill Simmons? As a better Tim Hardaway.
49:02 Speaker 05 Yes, that's the type of guy they should be going for for sure. Um, like if it's if it's an easier deal to make, then then maybe. But like, I don't know about all the other pieces, but Cam Johnson of the Pistons, yes, please. Like, that's a good idea.
49:13 Bill Simmons? I made it too complicated, but
49:15 Speaker 05 Yes, like just simply that idea I like. Yes.
49:18 Bill Simmons? I if I were the Knicks, I'd be thinking of a way to dump Mitchell Robinson in a trade and get a cheaper big back and try to get some cap space, some apron relief, some luxury tax relief and some flexibility with some sort of trade exception would be my dream scenario.
49:32 Speaker 05 I have a Mitchell Robinson trade in part for that.
49:35 Bill Simmons? Let's hear it.
49:36 Speaker 05 I got the Knicks and the Jazz. I got Mitchell Robinson, Deuce McBride, who would pain me to trade, and Precious Achua for Colin Sexton, Walker Kessler, and a salary filler in Spieh Makai Luke. So in this case, you'd be you you would do this deal if you're the Knicks, knowing that Mitchell Robinson may not be coming back for the entire season. And so you get Walker Kessler back to fill a similar role. You get Colin Sexton as an upgrade over Deuce McBride. I love Deuce. I think Deuce is better than Tom Thibodeau. I mean, Tom Thibodeau barely plays him, though. He barely plays any of the guys off the bench. So maybe you don't even make this deal for that reason, knowing Tibbs is going to have Walker Castle playing eight minutes a game and Sexton playing 15.
50:19 Speaker 05 But but maybe he would play some of those guys more. But so I think if you're the Knicks, something along those Lines, I'd be wanting to get another center because as much as I really like precious a Chua. I want a true five. I want another true rim protector next to Kat because what they've been doing lately in the lineups have worked well. But they've barely played cat with a Chua.
50:40 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
50:40 Speaker 05 It's worked when they have. It's been really successful for that team, but I want to see somebody that allows Kat to be in that role. He was next to go bear. In Minnesota, I know a Chua doesn't offer the room protection that say Walker Kessler could. So maybe I've made that deal too complicated and you. Trim it down.
50:56 Bill Simmons? No, I see what you're trying to do with it though. I just.
50:59 Speaker 05 They just.
50:59 Bill Simmons? If I'm Utah.
50:59 Speaker 05 Five.
51:01 Bill Simmons? Why do I have to trade Kessler if I'm Utah is what I keep coming back to every time I see his name in trade rumors.
51:07 Speaker 05 I mean, that's, that's the case with a lot of guys.
51:10 Bill Simmons? Like what?
51:10 Speaker 05 Trading this guy.
51:11 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I'm sure you do want him. He's a young guy and a super cheap contract and, and he produces and he protects the rim. Why do I have to trade him? Like they're probably, I would assume they're going to try to be good next year. Or try to be better. How many years in a row can you throw away? Yeah, there's something there. I think the Knicks have to think that way. How can they? Package stuff.
51:30 Speaker 05 Bill, they gotta go get BYU's AJ Devonsa. One more year of being crappy.
51:35 Bill Simmons? Oh, you think they're throwing away another one?
51:37 Speaker 05 One more year, just one more if you're the Jazz.
51:41 Bill Simmons? That's.
51:42 Speaker 05 And, and also next year's class has more than just AJ too. Next year's class, you get the boozers. You got Kareem Lopez who's dominating in the NBL right now as 17 years old in a men's league. So there's a lot of guys in next year's class that could be, you know, number one quality pick. So I think it's one more year for Utah.
52:01 Bill Simmons? What it, where's the Bance and the Brooklyn and the Brockton rankings right now?
52:06 Speaker 05 It's gotta be number one.
52:06 Bill Simmons? Haggler's, no, Haggler's gotta be one, right?
52:08 Speaker 05 Oh, I mean, right today, like current.
52:11 Bill Simmons? All time. Rising.
52:15 Speaker 05 All time. Yes. The bounce is gonna prove it.
52:18 Bill Simmons? Rocky Marciano from Brooklyn, uh, Brockton?
52:20 Speaker 05 Yeah, over my shoulder. These two bobbleheads. I got Marvin Hagler.
52:23 Bill Simmons? So Marciano and Hagler are one too.
52:25 Speaker 05 Oh, all time. Yeah, they're one two without a doubt.
52:30 Bill Simmons? I need to take a break before I throw this next straight at you. So we're taking a quick break.
52:38 Bill Simmons? This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm.
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54:09 Bill Simmons? All right, coming back. I'm glad you're sitting down. Take a deep breath. What if San Antonio traded for Jordan Poole and Jonas Valanciunas?
54:21 Bill Simmons? And gave up Jones and Collins and a first round pick?
54:26 Bill Simmons? And kind of dabbled in getting better, but didn't really do it and didn't really give up anything. And if you're Washington, you're like, this is great. Now we got rid of the one guy who can actually win games for us. We got rid of a center that keeps getting mentioned in these trades. But we know what happens with these centers. They always end up going for second round picks. Nobody gives up a first round pick for the $9 million, pretty good center. But if you're San Antonio and you could add just Jordan Poole and Valanciunas for nothing, like basically nothing, why wouldn't you do that?
54:59 Speaker 05 So with Jordan Poole, Bill.
55:00 Bill Simmons? Yeah, let's hear it.
55:01 Speaker 05 Throughout, throughout his entire basketball life, he's been a near 90% guy from the free throw line. He's had touch near the basket on floaters, but he's never been a consistent three-point shooter until this season. 25 years old, over 40% from three for the first time in his entire career after he was a below 34% guy. What if this is the new Jordan Poole?
55:25 Bill Simmons? What if?
55:26 Speaker 05 What if he figured it out?
55:27 Bill Simmons? 2022 finals, Jordan Poole is really Jordan Poole. And Draymond Green just punched it out of him for two years. I think he's worth taking a, it's this year and the next two on his contract. He's
55:38 Speaker 05 Yes.
55:39 Bill Simmons? overpaid, there's no question. But if you're San Antonio, what do you care? You're not spending that much money anyway.
55:44 Speaker 05 And for Poole, like, it's not like you have him till he's 27, 28 years old.
55:48 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
55:49 Speaker 05 So it's not a long-term commitment.
55:51 Bill Simmons? He's been legitimately good this year. I actually like watching him on the Wizards this year, right?
55:55 Speaker 05 I know, the Wizards went from one of the worst watches in the league last year to, oh, wait a minute, they're pretty fun. There's this something like Poole's been really good. Alex Sar is getting better. They've been a fun team to watch.
56:05 Bill Simmons? Well, you can tell who's not watching the Wizards when people are like, what if they can get Kyle Kuzma? And it's like, you obviously haven't watched a Wizards game this year. He's been one of the worst parts of the league. Nobody wants Kyle Kuzma.
56:15 Speaker 05 Kuzma has not been good, but Poole, I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued because for a long time, that
56:20 Bill Simmons? So you like this one? This might be the first one we've fully agreed on.
56:23 Speaker 05 I like this one because Poole is the type of guy that I think is worth a swing. Like for the, for the Spurs, these guys, I don't want to get, when they first drafted Wemby, Bill, I was thinking, oh, they should accelerate. They should go after Brook Lopez and have another big. They should go after a veteran and really support Victor and be good right away. I've backed off that the last year and a half. I want them instead to take these short-term guys who are swings. I'd be open to Zion, Jordan Poole types, guys like that who help you be competitive, but you're not having to overspend all of your future assets because the time you're going to be really wanting to trade in those assets, like the two future picks you got from Minnesota,
57:05 Speaker 05 the picks you have from the Hawks, that's going to be in the next two, three, four years in that range when Victor's into his mid 20s. That's when it's time to go build and try to go for it and take those really big swings on proven guys.
57:18 Bill Simmons? I still think you want to be, but I still think you want to be competitive in a real way now, which is what Presti did with OKC the last couple of years, right?
57:26 Speaker 05 Yes.
57:27 Bill Simmons? He and just because he lucked out in a bunch of different ways, but his skill as a GM, but also like guys blossoming maybe faster than he thought. But all that stuff was good for them. Those, those games that OKC played the last two years led to this year. I think if you're San Antonio, you want to start thinking that way.
57:44 Speaker 05 Totally.
57:44 Bill Simmons? Can this year and next year lead to two years from now, we're a 60-win team?
57:49 Speaker 05 And, and they are competitive. They're just slightly below 500. They're really great when Victor's on the floor. So they are competitive.
57:54 Bill Simmons? They're tough at the end of games. They, they have the same problem Houston has where it's, you know, if he's not getting the ball in the right spots, it's really, or Vassell is really the only other one I kind of trust with the ball. CP's too old now.
58:08 Speaker 05 And Vassell's been disappointing this season.
58:09 Bill Simmons? No, he has, but I mean, at least I feel like he can get the shot that he wants. I don't know if it's going in, but it's really hard for them to create offense down the stretch.
58:17 Speaker 05 And, and Jordan Poole no issues creating his own shot.
58:19 Bill Simmons? Jordan Poole no issues. I, so all right. So we're aligned on that one. I would love to see them do.
58:23 Speaker 05 I like it. I'm into it. That's a good creative idea. I had a thought about Jordan Poole as a target for the, for the Spurs. That's a good one.
58:29 Bill Simmons? Do your Zion one. You must have a Zion to the Spurs one, man.
58:32 Speaker 05 I don't, I don't have a Zion to the Spurs one. I was just intrigued by the idea after you mentioned the Pelicans trades.
58:37 Bill Simmons? I'm all, I'm all in. I mean, there's multiple ways that could go. I don't know how many picks would have to be involved, but I think putting Zion, I talked about this a couple of weeks ago, rolling the dice with Zion with that team, with the spotlight of being Wemby's teammate, different organization, lot of history, titles, Tim Duncan sitting there courtside every once in a while. I would just do it. Can I give you a three-way of just kind of, it's like a Yankee swap and Christmas?
59:05 Speaker 05 Sure.
59:07 Bill Simmons? Milwaukee gets Tobias Harris, making $25.3 million this year on, on the books for next year, too. Minnesota gets Chris Middleton, $31.7 million. Detroit gets Julius Randall, $33.1 million. This actually works in the trade machine. So Detroit's taking almost $8 million extra salary to quote unquote, upgrade from Harris to Randall, maybe for this year, maybe this year and next year if he opts in. Minnesota's saving a little money and getting rid of the Julius Randall issue that's kind of haunted them all season, even though I think he's a good basketball player. It just doesn't make sense for them. So they would save 1.6 million, which with the tax becomes like 20 million or some crazy number. And just kind of people passing stuff around.
59:52 Bill Simmons? I kinda like it and Milwaukee saving money. Um, but I kinda like the idea of Randall on Detroit because even Monday, everyone was going nuts about Cade. Cade had 10 turnovers in that game. He has the ball all the time, you know, he kinda needs one more person, you know?
1:00:06 Speaker 05 I don't want, I don't want Randall in Detroit.
1:00:10 Bill Simmons? So you don't want Randall anywhere? Is there a team you want Randall?
1:00:14 Speaker 05 Brooklyn.
1:00:16 Bill Simmons? So you think he's become a good stats, bad team guy?
1:00:18 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think that's exactly what he is. And I mean, it's crazy to say that about a dude who was two time all NBA and he's had some really good seasons, but he's just been horrible for Minnesota this year. And he's also had times where he's horrible for the Knicks. And so you have this really good thing going right now with the Pistons. And I know Cade's not perfect yet, but I don't want Randall clogging the lane for Cade when things are finally opening up for him and he's looking like a borderline all NBA guy. But why do you like it for the other teams though? I'm just curious.
1:00:48 Bill Simmons? Um, I like saving money if I'm Milwaukee and I like saving a little money if I'm Minnesota and getting rid of the Randall piece. And for Detroit, I think the bet would just be Randall was 24 and 10 and was an all NBA forward. You know, a couple of times for the Knicks and got put in one of the worst possible situations in Minnesota for him as a basketball player, where it just doesn't make sense. Maybe there's an actual asset here.
1:01:14 Speaker 05 Or is that in part his fault that it's not working perfectly?
1:01:18 Bill Simmons? Oh, it's definitely partly his fault because he doesn't know how to play any other way. But that, that's the thing. It's like, well, maybe on a different team, there's something more here. I would think about it. But I also think Detroit probably has better moves. Like I, I like Cam Johnson for them more than Randall, but I, Randall's not, to me, he's not a sunk cost. Like Beal is a sunk cost to me. I don't see a scenario where he's worth that money ever again. Randall, I'm not positive. So I, I'm sure you do too. I know some Knicks fans who still swear by Randall and we're like, guy's getting a bad rap. He was really good for us. I read those people are out there. Then there's other Knicks fans who can't stand him. Give me a trade.
1:01:59 Speaker 05 All right, I got a small one. This is a Suns one. Yusuf Nurkic and one of the first you got in that Utah deal to the Blazers for Robert Williams.
1:02:10 Speaker 05 Send Nerk back to Portland, get Time Lord, obviously injury prone, but he's a lob guy, fits the Nick Richards profile.
1:02:17 Bill Simmons? And he makes way less money than Nurkic.
1:02:19 Speaker 05 Yes, so you're saving money and you're getting a guy who fits your roster.
1:02:23 Bill Simmons? Portland probably has to throw something else in there to make this salary.
1:02:25 Speaker 05 Work salary wise, Nurkic for Williams, oh yep, it does.
1:02:32 Bill Simmons? I mean, I would do it just to get off the Nurkic money next year and save the luxury tax. Nurkic is, I don't know, he's not the worst contract in the league, but when you think about, he's one of the most untradable, I think.
1:02:43 Speaker 05 Two years.
1:02:43 Bill Simmons? It was hilarious, yeah, it was hilarious earlier in the year when the Suns fans were thinking that they could turn Nurkic into Vucevic somehow. It's like, what planet are you on? Nurkic has been awful. Nobody wants Nurkic. Now they traded for Nick Richards and he doesn't play at all. So, um, I would do that for both teams because Nurkic had, the only thing is if you're trading a center, if I'm Portland, do I want to get a center back? Is it worth it just to get a random pick? Is there a way to make that a three-way deal where Nurkic goes somewhere else?
1:03:17 Speaker 05 Maybe Nurkic comes off the bench for you behind Klingon, something like that, you know,
1:03:23 Speaker 05 but then you have the Ayton issue as well, but I want to see them go with two bigs sometimes. I'd like to see them try that out more often. I don't know, I think Billups is resistant to doing that, but at least Nurkic is a guy, he's, you know, he's a vet, maybe he plays a little bit off the bench for you, but being back in Portland, maybe he won't pout like he is in Phoenix right now.
1:03:43 Bill Simmons? Is Ayton a trade piece to you in any way?
1:03:47 Speaker 05 I don't think so.
1:03:49 Bill Simmons? So he's another one. I agree with you.
1:03:51 Speaker 05 He's been productive, but who's trading for him at 30-plus million dollars? So many teams have fives right now. I don't think there's many teams out there that would want a five making his money with how inconsistent he is.
1:04:02 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:04:04 Speaker 05 I don't, I don't know the team, not sure. New Orleans made sense a little bit before the season, but not so much right now.
1:04:10 Bill Simmons? Yeah, they're 12 and 32.
1:04:12 Speaker 05 Yes, they're the only team that I really had thought of before the season. At this point, I don't see something there for him.
1:04:18 Bill Simmons? I have one more big trade, so give me one more from you before I do my big one.
1:04:23 Speaker 05 Let's see, I got, I got one right here. I got a Cam Johnson one. I mentioned this on my, my podcast with Bobby Marks earlier in the week, and he was iffy on it. So I'm curious about your thoughts. Cam Johnson to the Cavs for Isaac Okoro, rookie Jalen Tyson, Niang's contract, and their unprotected 2031 first. Bobby was iffy on it because the Cavs, you could argue, and I think his reason is pretty sound here. You could argue the Cavs should try to get under the luxury tax this year to not get that clock started. So you become a team on over the tax multiple years in a row. Once Mobley has to be resigned and all these guys' deals come up.
1:05:04 Speaker 05 And so Bobby was like, maybe you go the other way and try to trade a guy to get under the tax. I think that makes sense. At the same time, Cam Johnson is very clearly an upgrade over Isaac Okoro. He adds dynamic shooting ability to your team when you're on a 70-win pace. This could be your chance to go for it. This could be the only year. Who knows what's going to happen in the future? So I like the idea of at least going for it this year and trying to roll the dice with somebody like Cam Johnson adding more upside to your team.
1:05:32 Bill Simmons? I don't like it. And I'll tell you why. I think if that team loses in the playoffs, it's going to be because of their inability to guard wings, right? Cam Johnson's not helping me with that. So if I'm using my last trade chip,
1:05:48 Bill Simmons? and I agree, their shooting's great, that, that always helps. But I don't think he's playing crunch time for them because now I have Garland out there and Cam Johnson. How, like if I'm playing Tatum and Brown, who's guarding Tatum and Brown if I'm playing those guys together? So I, I feel like if they, if they're going to do a trade like that and go into the major tax, I need somebody who can potentially guard Jason Tatum.
1:06:13 Bill Simmons? In the last five minutes of a game six in Boston. And I don't think it's Cam Johnson. That would be my count.
1:06:20 Speaker 05 I don't know. I don't know who it is though, that you can go get. I mean, like Isaac Okoro is a better defender, but he also is somebody that you're going to be helping off of on defense. It's always a, you know,
1:06:29 Bill Simmons? Right.
1:06:29 Speaker 05 push pull with these guys. So for the Cavs, you have limited assets.
1:06:34 Bill Simmons? Well, why do they have to do anything? They're playing really well. Like, like, I guess that's my other question with them is like, they seem like they all love playing with each other and they're having a great season. Like I, sometimes continuity is the move, right?
1:06:46 Speaker 05 Mm hmm. Yep. Sometimes it is. And sometimes you regret not trying to add another piece. It can go both ways. I think it depends. Like Cam Johnson's a good guy. I think he could fit into any locker room flawlessly. I don't think it'd be an issue.
1:06:59 Bill Simmons? He's having a great season.
1:07:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, he's been great. So I, I, I just think if, if you're talking about like who defends Tatum, who defends Brown?
1:07:07 Speaker 05 Like it's hard to defend those guys, all these great players at that level anyway, unless you have a truly elite.
1:07:12 Bill Simmons? Maybe it's easy to defend Jalen Brown lately.
1:07:14 Speaker 05 Right now it is.
1:07:15 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Hey, he's gonna try that follow away again for the foul line. That'd be great. Try that one more time.
1:07:20 Speaker 05 Drive to the middle of the floor with your left hand again.
1:07:22 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:07:23 Speaker 05 But I think for the Cavs, if you're talking about that matchup issue, I mean, you do have Dean Wade, who's been really good defensively for you, but even then Dean Wade alone isn't stopping those guys. It's having Evan Mobley.
1:07:35 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:07:35 Speaker 05 shade over and help. It's having Jared Allen presence at, at the basket. It's Donovan Mitchell helping at the nail and shading help over. Like it's a, it's more than one guy. So I don't think Cam Johnson's some liability by any means. He's just an average defender, but he's definitely somebody that they would pick on compared to the others.
1:07:52 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:07:52 Speaker 05 And by the way, if you're picking on anybody, like if it's an in game lineup, it's Garland. It's Garland still.
1:07:57 Bill Simmons? But now I have two guys I can pick on. I'm using Cam Johnson's guy to set the screen for Garland and it's like a feast now.
1:08:05 Speaker 05 Could be.
1:08:06 Bill Simmons? It's an interesting one because on the other hand, you could say, well, we're just going to outscore everybody. Now we have Cam Johnson. We're scoring 120 points a game and we'll, we'll figure out how to get some stops. I'd be really scared to do that much if I was Cleveland because it seems like one of the few teams we have right now that actually really likes playing with each other. Right? How many teams when you watch these games, how many teams actually seem like they all like each other? It's less than five.
1:08:29 Speaker 05 OKC, OKC's one.
1:08:31 Bill Simmons? 100%. They're the number one version of that.
1:08:33 Speaker 05 Cleveland's, I mean, obviously one and two, what both one seeds that they happen also.
1:08:37 Bill Simmons? Boston really likes each other even though they're not playing that well. I'd put them on that list.
1:08:40 Speaker 05 They're just bored. I think Boston's bored right now.
1:08:43 Bill Simmons? No question. Do you have another one? Cause I have one big one.
1:08:48 Bill Simmons? Is there another one you want to throw?
1:08:49 Speaker 05 Go with your big one.
1:08:50 Bill Simmons? You ready for the big one?
1:08:51 Speaker 05 I got my, I got my favorite ones out. Yeah.
1:08:55 Bill Simmons? It's an Anthony Davis trade.
1:08:58 Bill Simmons? The thinking is we've gone as far as we can go. We've done everything we could for you, LeBron. You've been here since 2018. We won a title together. We went, got your guy, Anthony Davis. We drafted your son and gave him a no cut contract.
1:09:15 Bill Simmons? Every time you've pushed us to do something, we've done it, including the Russell Westbrook trade, which you were hands off after that happened.
1:09:24 Bill Simmons? We've taken this as far as we can go. And we're not going to mortgage anymore of the future for this because for the first time ever, the Clippers have a better arena than us and probably a better team. And there's something cool happening with them and there's nothing cool happening with us. And we're not going to be held hostage by this anymore. The story in sports, decades after decades, is people trying to appease aging superstars. It never ends well. We're not going to do it. We're going to zag the other way. We're going to trade Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors.
1:09:55 Speaker 05 Oh, man.
1:09:57 Bill Simmons? And we're going to get back your buddy, Draymond Green. Schroder's expiring, Kaminga, Jackson Davis.
1:10:06 Bill Simmons? Golden State's 25 and 27 firsts and a 2029 pick swap. That's LA's call. We're cashing in.
1:10:18 Bill Simmons? What do you think?
1:10:19 Speaker 05 You sure this is the Lakers going the other way? Draymond's still a really good defender.
1:10:23 Bill Simmons? It's a pretty good trade. They're getting Draymond, Schroder, Kaminga, they get to roll dice with them, Jackson Davis. And if you're the Warriors, you still have enough left and you're going to build around Davis and Curry going down the stretch. And you could probably get creative with some other moves. It's kind of fun.
1:10:40 Speaker 05 I don't think the Warriors do it, but I'm intrigued.
1:10:43 Bill Simmons? Too many picks?
1:10:45 Speaker 05 Yeah. Too many picks and.
1:10:48 Bill Simmons? All right. So let's just say that this year's number one, which should be in the middle of the draft and a 27 unprotected first. So now I don't think the Lakers do it now.
1:10:59 Speaker 05 You think Steph would break up? Let's say the Warriors are in a position, they're no to blowing it up, no to, you know, trading Steph and Draymond this summer. Right? Let's just say they're not going to do that. Do you think Steph would be willing to break up with Draymond in this scenario?
1:11:12 Bill Simmons? I think the only team that you could talk yourself into this being a realistic scenario is the Lakers. Cause Draymond gets to live in Los Angeles and play with LeBron.
1:11:23 Speaker 05 Draymond might want it to happen.
1:11:25 Bill Simmons? Draymond might be like, this sounds great. I've always wanted to be on the Lakers. Let's, let's do it. I also think it's way harder to find an Anthony Davis trade that makes sense than people realize. Cause I see, I have people in my life, it's time to trade Davis. It's like, where? Like you're not trading me Houston. They can't even trade Shangoon this year. Like it would have to be like this summer, right? And at that point LeBron's 41 and you know, people probably know, you go around the league. You would have said in the past, oh, that maybe they get Karl Anthony Towns and some picks for him. But Karl Anthony Towns is playing great. You know, and you go around the league, I think it's really hard to find the right trade for him that he'd be excited about. To put him on a team that could actually win a title, like could it be Oklahoma City?
1:12:07 Bill Simmons? No, they're not mortgaging everything for, for Davis when they have Shays big contract coming up. When they gotta pay Jalen Williamson and they're going to have to play Chet Holmgren soon. Like, and they're not trading Chet for him. So you go through all the teams and I think it's way harder to figure out. I even was like, oh, Orlando will be a good one. Go look at their contracts. What's the Orlando trade? They can barely even match all the contracts to get to where AD is. So. I'd go and say was the only one that made sense.
1:12:33 Speaker 05 Orlando's interesting, though. If they were to give Isaac, who's like 24 million, I'm doing this to the top of my head. Cole Anthony is like 12 and then.
1:12:42 Bill Simmons? Right. So Isaac would have to be in the trade.
1:12:44 Speaker 05 Yeah. Maybe that gets you there. Orlando would be interesting, too.
1:12:48 Bill Simmons? The problem is like the way the league is now with the with the these different rules, it's really hard to make like a five for one, right? You need that one awesome 28 million dollar contract that you can put in a trade like that and they just don't have it. So they could put, you know, they could put, you said, what'd you say, Cole Anthony?
1:13:07 Speaker 05 Something like that. I'm pulling up a trade machine right now.
1:13:10 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I'm looking at spot track.
1:13:11 Speaker 05 Isaac at 25, Anthony at 12.9, and then Jett Howard.
1:13:17 Bill Simmons? I think Caldwell-Pope would have to be in it.
1:13:21 Speaker 05 I'm not, not sure if he has to be.
1:13:23 Bill Simmons? Oh, Isaac makes 25 this year. That is pretty high.
1:13:25 Speaker 05 25, yeah, it would work. Yeah. AD, AD is 42, 43.2 million dollars. And then for Isaac, Anthony and Jett Howard, those guys are.
1:13:37 Bill Simmons? Well, wouldn't Carter have to be in that trade, though?
1:13:39 Speaker 05 No, I mean, it wouldn't have to be. But finance wise, he wouldn't have to be like you. You could put him in there instead of Cole Anthony potentially, I think.
1:13:46 Bill Simmons? Is Sarudy on this?
1:13:47 Speaker 05 No, no, no, you can't. You can't do Wendell Carter can, you could do Wendell Carter. No, you can't.
1:13:53 Bill Simmons? Is Sarudy on this Zoom or no? I can't.
1:13:55 Speaker 05 Carter, Carter has a trade restriction.
1:13:57 Bill Simmons? Sarudy, pop on for a second. Let's talk this out.
1:14:00 Speaker 06 What's up, guys?
1:14:01 Bill Simmons? You knew this was coming.
1:14:02 Speaker 05 What's up, Sarudy?
1:14:04 Speaker 05 80, 80 for Isaac, Anthony and Howard and then like a bunch of picks.
1:14:07 Bill Simmons? No, let's put Carter in there. I think, I don't think the Lakers.
1:14:10 Speaker 05 You cannot, you can't trade Carter. Carter cannot be traded this season.
1:14:13 Bill Simmons? Oh, because he had the extension?
1:14:14 Speaker 05 Yes. So he can't be traded. Yeah.
1:14:18 Bill Simmons? What do you think, Sarudy?
1:14:20 Speaker 06 I think about it. I mean, I've been one of the, I feel like, I feel like, I feel like you when we were in Denver, that we were talking about that. I was like the king of the like, yeah, Lakers should trade AD. Like, what's the point? Like, get what you can get for him. I never even thought of this as a possibility. I mean, it's not really what they need, but just imagine that team like that could, that has like all time defensive capabilities. That would be absurd. I mean, just go all in on your identity. I'd be a little bit worried about, you know, I don't know, he just the injury, the concerns and the age profile stuff, but it would be kind of fun.
1:14:52 Bill Simmons? So you'd have to do 25, 27, 29 and 31. I think you'd have to do four unprotected firsts.
1:15:00 Bill Simmons? Probably throw in the Denver first that you have that's rolls over and then maybe a swap. Like how many, how many picks is that K O C?
1:15:09 Speaker 05 I mean, you just listed like
1:15:09 Bill Simmons? Is it five, six?
1:15:12 Speaker 05 Do you want to give all those picks for A D?
1:15:14 Speaker 06 I think, I think that's where I say no. I think that's where I say no, because I, you know, is, is the timeline right? Like when in two years, like they're not winning these this year. Maybe next year they could be a top three team. Let's see about the health situation, but like it, it feels like they're going in completely opposite directions.
1:15:31 Bill Simmons? So Rudy, can I pause, can I pause button you right now?
1:15:33 Speaker 06 Yeah, go ahead.
1:15:34 Bill Simmons? You'd have a starting front line of A D, Palo and Franz. The timeline is like now, when all those guys come back, I don't want to play that team.
1:15:44 Speaker 06 You're right.
1:15:44 Bill Simmons? I don't want to see that team in a playoff series. The timeline is this year if you do that.
1:15:49 Speaker 05 I want to do it for all those picks.
1:15:50 Speaker 06 But if it doesn't work out, you're kind of screwed, right?
1:15:52 Bill Simmons? You would.
1:15:54 Speaker 05 I want to do it for all those picks.
1:15:55 Bill Simmons? Three picks?
1:15:56 Speaker 05 I'd be, I'd be cheap there if I'm the Magic, like 80 is 31 right now. He's got four years left until he's 34, 35 years old. And he's going to be making almost $60 million the next three years.
1:16:08 Bill Simmons? K O C, this is the part where I remind you that the Knicks traded five first round picks for Mikal Bridges.
1:16:14 Speaker 05 Oh, I know.
1:16:14 Bill Simmons? Davis is like the 11th best guy in the league.
1:16:17 Speaker 05 I know. That's the bar.
1:16:19 Bill Simmons? Yeah, I think it has to be five picks.
1:16:23 Speaker 06 I think I'd say no. I think I'm saying, and just wait for something else to happen.
1:16:28 Speaker 05 Cause you do, but here, here's the one thing, Sir Rudy, right? Like what is that next thing? Because
1:16:33 Bill Simmons? No, you're right.
1:16:34 Speaker 05 But let's say there's a player that anytime a player that becomes available who's better than A D. It's going to be Utah or the Thunder or the Spurs, the, or the Rockets, the Nets, these teams that have more picks and quantity and quality, like the Magic.
1:16:50 Bill Simmons? Right. The Rockets can trade from this summer. They were Sheng Moon and a bunch of stuff and go get them in July.
1:16:55 Speaker 05 Exactly. So all these other teams have more quantity and quality that the Magic can't wait for that top five guy.
1:17:01 Bill Simmons? Right. They're trumpets, they're stepping, they're jumping the line and grabbing them now.
1:17:04 Speaker 05 Yep.
1:17:05 Speaker 06 Yeah, but I'm, I think I'm okay long-term with like, you know, let those guys go, you know, big fish hunting and we'll just make moves around the edges and kind of like, cause you got the two guys. You've got the guys that matter. You know, like, ah, I, I.
1:17:20 Bill Simmons? So I don't, I just disagree with you. It would be a better case if you were like. I'm not sure we should trade for Anthony Davis, who was super injury prone during the year that Palo and Franz both suffered the exact same injury and Mo Wagner got hurt and Suggs got hurt. We do not, we do not want to bring our karma, karma to Anthony Davis.
1:17:39 Speaker 06 Make sure the obliques are iced up for every game. I know.
1:17:43 Bill Simmons? Yeah. What's Anthony Davis' oblique situation? Is it okay?
1:17:46 Speaker 05 Oh my gosh.
1:17:48 Bill Simmons? He's just, for me, those guys, and he like strains it.
1:17:52 Bill Simmons? I, Orlando's the only other one. I went through everybody else. I just, you know, there's like Sacramento, if you could do like a Sabonis Davis like that, but I don't know where that gets either team, you know? I think it's Orlando.
1:18:05 Speaker 06 I like Golden State. I like the Golden State one. It just feels, it feels like that's a, that's a timeline match thing that that just kind of works out.
1:18:11 Bill Simmons? I will say this, that trade I laid out, if that actually happened, would be one of the most fun trade moments of the 21st century. There's so much going on in that trade in all different directions that we, it just feels like we would talk about that for 10, 10 straight days. Thanks, Sarudy.
1:18:29 Speaker 06 Thanks, guys.
1:18:31 Bill Simmons? KOC, any last trades before we go?
1:18:34 Speaker 05 No, that's all I had listed, Bill. That AD one has me thinking though. I mean, cause for the Lakers, Bill, you're right. Like I, I don't think they're gonna necessarily go the other way that you're proposing, but it's something they should at least think about. Like this week, I made the case writing, like the Warriors should blow it up because they're not going anywhere. Steph's declining, Draymond's declining. At least they're showing signs of it this year. Reminds me of the, the 2012, 13 Celtics when KG and Pierce were still really good, but, but they clearly were beginning to fall a little bit and they make the deal that leads to Tatum and Brown. And so I think the Warriors are in that spot where at least the front office and ownership should be thinking about it. And for the Lakers, obviously LeBron, I mean, LeBron's not the same guy. He's just not. He's still a great player, but he's not the same level player.
1:19:19 Speaker 05 And AD, who knows when the injuries will start perking back up again, so they should think about it. I just think that Lakers roster is still worth at least exploring adding more. But if the Magic call up and offer you four firsts and two swaps, you gotta take that meeting and really think hard about it. Because if you do that, then that opens up your ability to say, oh, guess what? We are open to LeBron trades. And then if you were to get something for LeBron too, suddenly you'd have the most picks in the NBA. And then you're in a team that can go get somebody.
1:19:49 Bill Simmons? But how many contenders, how many contenders, teams that actually have a chance to win the title? Or a realistic option for a 40 year old guy making 50 million a year with no trade clause. I can't find a single team. Even if you said like, oh, Cleveland, he wants to come back home. It's like, if I'm Cleveland, do I want to? That's a pretty like aggressive.
1:20:09 Speaker 05 No.
1:20:09 Bill Simmons? Reshaking of the roster. I wouldn't do that.
1:20:12 Speaker 05 I want, I want to do it without LeBron if I'm Cleveland.
1:20:15 Bill Simmons? Yeah. Well, also like you have such a good thing. Now you're bringing somebody who, who, you know, the two generations of guys in the league like revere. It's really hard for him to be like, all right, just set some picks and hit a couple of corner threes for us. Like he's going to have the ball. Um, I don't know what the team is for him. So, and I don't, I don't, I don't think he wants to leave LA anyway. So it's not realistic. Davis as a trade is more realistic to me, but um, I just don't, the Lakers organization. I don't understand why they kowtow to these guys.
1:20:46 Speaker 05 Maybe the Suns for LeBron, somebody like that. Short flight away from LA instead of Jimmy Butler.
1:20:53 Bill Simmons? But that now the Lakers are taking Beal, like they don't want, I don't want to turn LeBron into Beal. No, thank you. Also, like if you're the Lakers and you trade LeBron, all of a sudden your games, like if you're going to actually rebuild or you're going to like blow it up or whatever, like, like there is still, people go to the games to see LeBron. He's one of the greatest players in the history of the league. Like that's still a draw and they're still in this mix where they seem relevant. People don't actually watch basketball that much, think they're still a contender. And there's an illusion of competitiveness that is to me not real, but you at least have that. Once you, once you start blowing this up, now you're where you were in the mid 2010s.
1:21:34 Speaker 05 Why is that? Is that because of LeBron not being top two, top three anymore? Is that why? Or is that more something about the supporting cast? Like, why do you think that is?
1:21:45 Bill Simmons? Well, he's, I mean, he's 40, he's not the, not close to being the same guy that he used to be.
1:21:50 Speaker 05 He's still one of the 10 to 15 best guys. AD, you said 11th best or something like that. So if you still have two top 15 guys.
1:21:57 Bill Simmons? LeBron doesn't play defense anymore. I don't understand how anyone could put him in the top 12 to 15 at this point when.
1:22:03 Speaker 05 So you don't have him up there?
1:22:04 Bill Simmons? I don't, I don't, I would have him in the top 25, but I think.
1:22:08 Speaker 05 Wow.
1:22:09 Bill Simmons? I think it's really hard to, to beat good teams when you have multiple holes on defense like they have. I think that's a fair statement. Like when they have, they're playing Reeves and Connect and LeBron all at the same time. It's like you, you can't play defense that way. So and I'm not, what position is the perfect position for him ideally, right? It's the four.
1:22:30 Speaker 05 Yeah.
1:22:31 Bill Simmons? And then you have really playing with him. Really, you want to have perimeter guys and you want shooting. But that would mean LeBron would have to guard bigger guys and rebound more and, and, you know, step up on that. And it just doesn't seem like he has enough in the tank to do that anymore. So they're in a weird conundrum with them because he gets his stats. You can catch the right night. He looks great, but I don't see it night to night. And we get to the playoffs, it's every other game. You know, so if like, if I was the Lakers advisor, would either of us say like, you guys have a chance to make the finals with this team? You're one move away. I don't think they are.
1:23:07 Speaker 05 They're two moves away from at least having a chance.
1:23:10 Bill Simmons? Everyone's two moves away.
1:23:12 Speaker 05 But well, that's exactly why it's difficult for them. They're two moves away from having a chance. And even then they're still not the favorite. I'm still not taking them in a series against OKC or Denver. I still think they're probably a second round out. Yeah. Even, even if they do get Levine, even if they do get Kessler, but you'd have a better shot in that scenario. But I still want to pick them for all the reasons we're talking about.
1:23:32 Bill Simmons? You would need so much luck with, you, you'd need an OKC injury. You need something weird to happen with. You'd have to go down and there would have to be a dumb thing that happened with every team. I just think.
1:23:43 Speaker 05 And it can happen that like the Warriors had a pretty good path in 2022 and like Kerr talked about recently and they, they win it all. Like it's, it's not impossible to happen. So that, that's what they know way, but I, I do think, you know, if a team calls up for AD, it makes a significant offer. They need to be thinking about that. They have to.
1:24:03 Bill Simmons? Who do you have in the finals right now?
1:24:06 Speaker 05 Still OKC in the West, though Denver really intrigues me. Just the way they're playing lately, like we talked about earlier with Ross stepping up and everything.
1:24:14 Bill Simmons? And Murray looks way better than he did four weeks ago.
1:24:16 Speaker 05 He looks way better. He looks more like himself.
1:24:19 Bill Simmons? Noticeably better.
1:24:20 Speaker 05 And then in the East, I'm still going to take the Celtics for now, even though I think the shooting, the shooting I'm worried about most. Because like the, you know, some of the other stuff, I think they're just bored. This happens almost every December into January with them.
1:24:32 Bill Simmons? Yeah.
1:24:32 Speaker 05 But the shooting, they're closer to the middle of the pack in three point percentage this season. I wonder if there's some tired legs there. Drew Holiday has regressed as a shooter. Derrick White has as of late and Jerry Lambrou looks like there's just something off with him. I worry there, but I'll still lean towards Boston right now over Cleveland. That may change by the end of the season though.
1:24:52 Bill Simmons? Yeah, it's tough. When you win the title, you go one of two ways. You can either come out the next season like a bad out of hell, or you just assume you could turn it on anytime you want. And they've, they started out one way, and I think they've settled into the other way where it's like, we're, we're fine, we're fine. I don't like that they don't have home court in the last two rounds. The way this is shaking out, though. I don't think that's nothing, you know? It's all fine until it's game six at home with a game seven in the other place. You're down three to two for the series and you fall behind by like nine in the second quarter. And the fans are like, oh my God, like our season might, we'll see. I, I'd like to see them have one streak, K O C. Cause I think that's what separates the, the,
1:25:35 Bill Simmons? the real teams from everybody else. Like these teams that could just rip off 11 straight, 12 straight. Last year, they were a 25 game winning streak threat for every month of the season. And that this year they can't play five good games in a row.
1:25:48 Speaker 05 Who, who worries you most besides Cleveland in the East?
1:25:53 Speaker 05 Still Milwaukee?
1:25:55 Bill Simmons? Milwaukee always cause the honest Orlando a little bit because of the defense. I'm still like Orlando, and that's just saying this to make Saru's night. Orlando is just kind of hanging out over there with this crazy defense.
1:26:09 Speaker 05 They're not beating Boston.
1:26:12 Speaker 05 Their, their offense, their 30th and three point percentage.
1:26:16 Bill Simmons? They haven't had their guys.
1:26:17 Speaker 05 And I know, but they, even with those guys, their offense isn't there yet.
1:26:21 Bill Simmons? The defense scares me because this Celtics team can look really clumsy and really static. And the toilet bowl offense can go into full effect. And with all those guys they have, they've just guys to throw at Tatum and Brown. And I don't like the way the guards on the Celtics have played for two months, you know, I got, we're taping this before I go to the Cooper game tonight. And I'm going to the Laker game tomorrow night. I really want to see it in person. Like, are these guys, do they look different athletically? Is this just a funk that's going on? So I guess we'll find out.
1:26:51 Speaker 05 The Olympics may have been very bad for those guys.
1:26:53 Bill Simmons? Very possible.
1:26:54 Speaker 05 White, White and Holiday having a, a long off season, a long playoffs. They, something's off with those guys. That's where my concern is as well as with those guards and the overall team shooting ability.
1:27:06 Bill Simmons? And the Knicks, obviously. I wouldn't look forward to seeing them in a series either because they have good basketball players and Brunson's really good and Towns has been playing great. So, you know, I do think when you play that team for two weeks, a little easier to figure out. But, you know, the East is way better. You think last year it was like a walk in the park, which wasn't their fault, but that's what it was. This year, a little different. Milwaukee, we'll see if they make one more move, too. The team they have right now, I wouldn't be afraid of, but they're one move away from me being more afraid, right?
1:27:37 Speaker 05 If they were to get Levine, they'd be really scary.
1:27:41 Bill Simmons? That would be scary because he kills the Celtics. That would be one of those. All the Celtic fans would be like, oh, no, they got that guy?
1:27:46 Speaker 05 Levine, Giannis would be beautiful together. Like, that would be incredible. Lopez has been great this year for them, too. If they can subtract Portis and upgrade from Middleton, I think they're cooking. They got something there.
1:27:59 Bill Simmons? All right, KOC, good to see you again. You can follow his podcast, subscribe, listen to it, and you can read him on Yahoo as well. Great to see you.
1:28:08 Speaker 05 Great to see you, too, Bill. Have a good night.
1:28:12 Bill Simmons? All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to KOC. Thanks to Kyle and Rudy and Gahal. Don't forget, you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will be back tomorrow night with yet another podcast. We're going heavy on the football tomorrow, as you would probably expect. See you in 24 hours.
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