How Regret Motivates Us — with Daniel Pink

Daniel Pink, the author of five New York Times bestselling books including Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us and To Sell is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others, joins Scott to discuss regret, human motivation, and his Washington Post column, “Why Not?” Follow Dan, @DanielPink. Subscribe to No Mercy / No Malice Buy "The Algebra of Wealth," out now. Follow the podcast across socials @profgpod: Instagram Threads X Reddit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:30Scott Galloway?

  Episode 329. 329 is the area code belonging to the Hudson Valley region of New York. In 1929, the Museum of Modern Art, MoMA, opened in New York City. True story. I posed nude for my art class. Problem was, they didn't ask me.

• 1:58Scott Galloway?

  Welcome to the 329th episode of the Prop G Pod. The Doug's on vacation. That's right, I'm in a field running. So in place of our regular scheduled programming, we're sharing a conversation with Daniel Pink, the author of various bestselling books, including The Power of Regret and When, as well as the number one New York Times bestseller, Drive and To Sell Is Human. We discussed with Daniel regret, human motivation, and his Washington Post column, Why Not? He's a great storyteller, interesting concepts. It's kind of, it's like if Ted exploded or if Ted was personified, I think it'd be Daniel Pink. Anyways, with that, here's our conversation with Daniel Pink. So let's bust right into it. You wrote a book about regret, The Power of Regret.

• 2:41Scott Galloway?

  You said that the advice you give is to stay positive, look ahead and never dwell on the past, which is harmful. Why?

• 2:49Speaker 05

  Because we have completely misunderstood this emotion of regret. We've been told, as you mentioned, that we should be positive all the time, never be negative, we should look forward, not back. And that's bad advice. It goes against the science. It will. What the science tells us is that if we don't ignore our regrets and don't wallow in our regrets, but confront them, think about them, look them in the eye, it's a transformative emotion. It helps us in a variety of ways.

• 3:14Scott Galloway?

  Well, that makes sense. I don't, my struggle is I make mistakes every day and I can't forgive myself. And I don't know if that's regret, but where does regret become unhealthy and a source of depression where you can never get out of the past?

• 3:28Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, there's a big difference. So when it's a source of depression, that's a medical issue. What I'm writing about here is, I'm not a doctor, so I can't, I can't opine on the medical dimensions of it. Essentially what we should be doing, and I think there is some relation in how the scientific ways to deal with regret are actually very similar. To cognitive behavior therapy, um, which is essentially not looking at your emotions as who you are, but as something that is going on, as something that is going on in your life, that is to examine them. And so when you talk about reckoning with regret, one of the first steps is something called self compassion. Um, and self compassion is in some ways a triangulation between self esteem and self flagellation. We tend to

• 4:11Speaker 05

  believe that lacerating self criticism is the way to get us to perform better. And there's no evidence of that. Um, there's also very little evidence that kind of constantly patting yourself on the back and boosting your self esteem is good. What seems to be good is the work that Kristin Neff has done at University of Texas on self compassion, which is essentially treating yourself with kindness rather than contempt, um, recognizing that mistakes, setbacks, regrets are part of life, and then using that as a stepstone to thinking about your regrets. One of the things we see in the research on self compassion is that people have a very, many people, particularly high achieving people, have a very difficult, they talk to themselves in ways they would never talk to anybody else. So if I were probably to harness your self talk, all right, we were to use those, those

• 4:54Speaker 05

  headphones you're wearing now and create this magical thing that allows me to hear what you're saying to yourself, especially in the face of a mistake, it would probably be brutal. It would probably be lacerating. It would probably be cruel. And chances are you wouldn't say that to somebody else. And so what the research on self compassion tells us is, don't treat yourself better than anybody else, but don't treat yourself worse than anybody else, because it's not effective.

• 5:18Scott Galloway?

  So all this just makes all sorts of sense, right? I've always said that, and one of my things, it's like three of my last five New Year's resolutions have been to forgive myself. What is the actual cognitive behavior, the exercises to get better than this? Logically, it is impossible, rationally, logically, not to agree with you. What are the actual behavioral modification techniques for getting there?

• 5:40Speaker 05

  I'll give you an example, okay? Because this goes to some of the other ways that we deal with regret. What seems to be a very effective technique on a whole range of things is what's known as self distancing.

• 5:53Speaker 05

  Um, there's a psychological phenomenon known as Solomon's paradox, which is that we, human beings, are pretty good at solving problems, but we tend to stink at solving our own problems because we're too close to them. So, a way to be more compassionate to yourself is to, is to say what you would say to someone who is telling you what you're telling yourself. So if you had a friend who was telling themselves, "You're an idiot, you're an imposter, you don't deserve to be here, you're worthless", what would you say to that person? I mean, what, what, what would you say, what would you say to that person?

• 6:23Scott Galloway?

  You'd say, "For God's sake, stop it", and list off some positive metrics.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  That's the kind of thing that you can say to yourself. There are other great self distancing techniques. There's a, one of the best decision making self distancing techniques is when you're stuck on a decision, is to ask yourself, "What would I tell my best friend to do?" That's a great, very specific, practical tip. Um, in a business setting, you can use the old Andy Grove technique, where he said, when he faced a tough decision back when he was the CEO of Intel, he would ask himself, "If I were replaced tomorrow, what would my successor do?" And he almost always knew. And so the idea here in the research on self distancing is that when we tackle our own problems, our own issues, we tend to look at them like scuba divers. And what we should be doing is looking at them like oceanographers, getting above them. And there are ways to do that.

• 7:15Speaker 05

  There's research showing that actually you can improve your performance. You want to talk about self-talk? You can, you can improve your performance by talking to yourself in the second person or the third person. You know? Instead of asking yourself, "What should I do?", say, "What should you do?", or better, "What should Scott do?".

• 7:32Scott Galloway?

  In an effort to understand the difference between unproductive and productive regret, have you been able to reverse engineer productive or unproductive regret? Any sort of identity or experience, gender, the way you were raised, your approach to life?

• 7:46Speaker 05

  Not really. I mean, it's, I can answer that question in two different ways. Number one is that for this book, what I did is I, I did two things. I, I did the largest public opinion survey ever conducted on American attitudes about regret, trying to identify whether there were demographic differences in how people experience regret or what they regretted. So, looking at everything from race, from education level, uh, even things like introversion, extroversion, belief in God, et cetera, et cetera. The one demographic difference that came out in this public opinion research was, had to do with age. And what it showed is that- People in their twenties had about equal numbers of regrets of action and inaction.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  That is, in the architecture of regret, you can regret something you did, you can regret something you didn't do. People in their twenties had roughly equal numbers of regrets of action and inaction. But as people age, the inaction regrets take over. When you get to be in your forties, certainly fifties, sixties, seventies, inaction regrets outnumber action regrets by three and a half, four to one. So that's a big, that's a big difference in the, in the content of what people regret. But when you look at things like, do men and women have different regrets? There's some evidence, there's modest evidence showing some differences. In my research, I saw a tiny little bit, not that much on race, a little bit on education level. I found that, that people with large amounts of form, of formal education actually had

• 9:12Speaker 05

  more career regrets than people with less formal education, which sort of is superficially surprising, but perfectly understandable because if you have more education, you have more opportunities, which means you have more opportunities foregone. And so the demographic differences in what people regret were not massive. Now, I also did a piece of qualitative research where we collected regrets from 26,000 people around the world. And there I found that around the world, people seem to have the same four core regrets. They go deeper than simply a regret about a career, a regret about romance, a regret about health, a regret about finance, go deeper than those, those surface domains of life.

• 9:52Scott Galloway?

  Are these the four you're talking about in your book, Foundation, Boldness, Moral, and Connection? Can you say more about those?

• 9:58Speaker 05

  Sure, sure. The four regrets, so, so again, we have this pretty remarkable database of regrets from 134 countries. The, the survey was up in, in, in Chinese, it was up in Spanish, and obviously it was up in English. And the, the four regrets that people around the world seem to have are, are exactly, as you say, foundation regrets. Small decisions people make early in life that accumulate to terrible consequences later in life. I spent too much and saved too little, and now I'm broke. I didn't exercise or eat right, and now I'm profoundly out of shape. So that's, that's a foundation regret. A boldness regret is a very big category of regret. You're at a juncture in your life, and you have two choices. You can play it safe, or you can take the chance. And overwhelmingly, when people don't take the chance, they regret it. Now, that's not true for everybody.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  There, there are plenty of people who take a chance and it goes south of them and they regret it. But they are. Massively outnumbered by people who didn't take the chance. And again, what's interesting here is that it doesn't matter the domain. So I have hundreds of people who regret not asking somebody out on a date. Hundreds of people who regret not traveling, not starting a business, not doing something that required a little bit more boldness than they were willing to offer up at the time. Third category, moral regrets. Another time where you have a choice. I can take the low road, I can take the high road. I can do the right thing, I can do the wrong thing. Overwhelmingly, most people, most of the time, regret doing the wrong thing.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  Because most people are decent, and most people want to be decent, and most people feel crappy when they're not decent. And the final one are connection regrets, which are about relationships. And not only romantic relationships, but the full spectrum of relationships in our lives. So you've got a relationship that was intact or should have been intact, say with a friend or with a sibling or with a parent or whoever, and it comes apart. And in many cases, the way these relationships come apart is unexciting and undramatic. They just kind of drift apart. Somebody wants to reach out, they don't, because they think it's going to be awkward, and they think the other side's not going to care. So it drifts apart even more. And so those are the four regrets. Foundation regrets, if only I'd done the work.

• 12:10Speaker 05

  Boldness regrets, if only I'd taken the chance. Moral regrets, if only I'd done the right thing. And connection regrets, if only I'd reached out. And it's remarkable consistency all over the world in the way people talk about this regrets, these regrets, and the content of their regrets.

• 12:25Scott Galloway?

  I love this type of research. In addition to yours, I read a lot of what my colleague at NY, Adam Alter, has written about palliative care and end of life. And it fits to everything you're saying. The only, the only thing we haven't talked about, and it's sort of a mix of all of them, or an alchemy of all of them, is that People, the number one regret I've read is that people wish they'd been less hard on themselves. They'd wish they'd forgiven themselves. And that is, one of my favorite sayings, it's gotten me through a lot of hard times, is nothing is ever as good or as bad as it seems. And that when you look back on your life, you won't be as upset about the thing that happened to you. You'll be upset about how you responded to it. Your thoughts?

• 13:02Speaker 05

  I think that's generally right. I mean, that's, that is essentially the underlying philosophy of, the underlying theory of cognitive behavior therapy, which is basically how you respond to it. It's also essentially an element of Stoic philosophy, which has become incredibly popular now. And so, but I mean, the other thing, I mean, I'll, you know, I think what's interesting about these regrets is, you know, interviewing people about their regrets is that when people tell you what they regret the most, they're telling you what they value the most. And so what we know from these four regrets is that people value stability. They value growth and learning and not wasting their time on the planet. They value goodness and they value love.

• 13:41Speaker 05

  And I think that's very consistent with some of the other research we know on, that we have on human flourishing. Part of which tells us that ultimately, at the end of our lives, what's going to matter to us is, did we have people in our lives who loved us and did we love other people? Period, full stop. I mean, that's, if you look at the research, if you look at the, the grant study at Harvard, this lengthy, multi-decade longitudinal study of human flourishing, that's what it, that's what it shows. And I think what's interesting about this research on regret, and in general, is, is also, to your point, Scott, is most decisions we make in a given day don't really matter all that much. And I think this is why it's important to think about our regrets.

• 14:26Speaker 05

  You probably made a hundred decisions yesterday and it's today and you don't remember most of them. But there are decisions and indecisions that you made, that we made, human beings made, each of us, a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, that not only do we remember them, when we don't remember most decisions we made yesterday, not only do we remember a decision or indecision from 20 years ago, but it bugs us. That's a very strong signal. That's telling us something. And so, we have a choice. We can either plug our ears and say, nope, I'm going to be positive all the time, or we can say, oh my God, I'm the worst person in the world and let it topple us. Or we can say, huh, that's interesting. That's a pretty strong signal. Let me listen to this signal. Let me use it as data. And

• 15:09Speaker 05

  when we do that, there's a lot of evidence showing that regret can help us on a whole range of different things. It can help us become better negotiators, better problem solvers, avoid cognitive biases, strategize better, find more meaning in life.

• 15:23Scott Galloway?

  We'll be right back.

• 15:28Scott Galloway?

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• 16:28Scott Galloway?

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• 17:39Scott Galloway?

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• 18:46Scott Galloway?

  I think of you as the motivation guy. I first came across your work. I was excited that you agreed to come on the pod because I remember literally 10 or 15 years ago, I stumbled upon this video where you used an animation to kind of brilliantly and succinctly, I'm sure you know the video. It went everywhere. And that was, I feel like that was sort of an inflection point for you. You were, became kind of, you kind of owned motivation. Your book, Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us. I loved the, the way you broke it down. Autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Can you say more about those three pillars of the, of the motivation stool?

• 19:24Speaker 05

  Sure. I mean, what we know about especially motivation at work is that we have this, we sort of have this head fake going on. We, we think that a certain kind of reward, what I call if then rewards, are the secret to effective motivation. If you do this, then you get that. If you do this, then you get that. And we have now 60 years of research showing us that if then rewards are pretty good for simple tasks with short time horizons, but not that effective for complex tasks with long horizons. And that for complex tasks with long horizons, what we want to do in the workplace especially is pay people well, and then, as you say, offer them those three things. Autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So autonomy is, do you have some control over what you do, how you do it, when you do it, where you do it? Mastery is, are you getting better at something that matters?

• 20:09Speaker 05

  Are you making progress in something meaningful? And purpose is, do you know why you're doing it? Are you making a difference in the world? Are you making a contribution in your own little like terrain? And those are the things that actually lead to enduring motivation. These if then rewards are like, it's like, you know, you can keep shoveling coal into the furnace, but it burns up pretty quickly. And, but these, these if, these autonomy, mastery, and purpose, which form sort of the trifecta of intrinsic motivation, lead to enduring high performance.

• 20:41Scott Galloway?

  And what are the enemies of motivation? I was default to the word now. You want to write a book? Just start. So many people come up to me. I want to start a podcast. I want to write a book. I'm like, okay, start. Other than that, I don't know what advice to give you. What are the killers of motivation?

• 20:58Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, there are all kinds of killers of motivation. I mean, part of what it, part of it is, I mean, what you're talking about in a way is procrastination, which is a problem of emotional regulation. They sort of have this incoherent desire to, to write a book, but they don't want to deal with the discomfort of sitting down and writing the first sentence, because that's really painful. Uh, you know, and so I actually think that your advice to just start is, is right. I, I think what you want to do is you want to try to change. You want to offer people some scaffolding and some structuring on that. So, you know, if you want to write a book and is set out in your calendar today, 15 minutes to start writing and then do 15 minutes tomorrow. And then do 15 in your calendar, 15 minutes the next day and then expand that. And over and over and over, that's how you write books.

• 21:43Speaker 05

  I mean, I've written seven books. Do you think I, if I were to have waited until I was inspired to start writing, I wouldn't have written a word. I've written, I was able to, I'm able to write books because I care about what I'm writing, but also because I show up in my office at eight 30 and write and do my job. And then I do it the next day and the next day and the next day. And I do it even on the days that I don't feel like doing it. I do it on the days, especially on the days I don't feel like doing it. It's like, it's like the famous Julius Irving quotation. It's like being a professional is doing what you love to do, even on the days you don't feel like doing it.

• 22:17Scott Galloway?

  Let's talk about that. What is your process? It sounds like, one, it sounds like you go into an office, but when, when you're writing a book, that's kind of, I think what you're known for. What's your process? You've written seven books. How do you, is there, could you offer anyone some structure around how you get these things done?

• 22:34Speaker 05

  I look at writing books like a blue collar job. I think of it as being a bricklayer. And so what I do in terms of the actual execution of the book is I'm talking to you from my garage office. I, I live 22 steps in that direction. I'm in Washington DC. This is my garage office, all right? Pink Ink World headquarters is a converted one car garage. And at eight 30 in the morning, when I'm writing a book, I come into this office and I give myself a word count. It varies depending on where I am in the process, but I'll give myself a word count. 600 words, 700 words. I don't bring my phone with me in the office. I don't open up my email. I don't watch ESPN highlights. I don't do anything until I hit that number.

• 23:16Speaker 05

  And then when I hit that number, I'm liberated to do other stuff. But nothing until I hit that number. Some days I hit that number at 10:30, 11:00. Other days I don't hit it till late in the afternoon and those are crappy days. But I don't do anything until I hit that number. And then I do it the next day. And then I do it the next day. So if you want to have process, it's not anything exalted. It's not like I sit in the corner over here with a smoking jacket on, listening to God, for God to dictate sentences to me. No. I show up in my workspace and I do my work.

• 23:49Scott Galloway?

  Uh, your dad, my understanding is two daughters and a son. What is, what is your work on motivation, regret? How does that change your approach to parenting?

• 23:59Speaker 05

  You know, I, I think I'm a pretty autonomy supportive parent, to use the, that kind of technical language. Uh, so I, I try to support my kids autonomy, so not be directive, too directive about what they have to do. Now, the underlying fact here is, is that, I mean, we have 50 years of evidence that the effect of parenting on kids, especially their intellect and their personality, is very small. So, you know, the unhappy fact of genetic research for many parents is, is that identical twins raised apart are more similar in intelligence and in personality than fraternal twins raised together. So, you know, arguably the most important things that a parent gives a kid,

• 24:44Speaker 05

  in my view, especially in America, are genes and a zip code. Uh, if you look at the work of Ross Chetty, the most important thing a parent gives a kid are genes and a zip code. Now, again, when we're talking only about their outcome. I mean, you know, I, I, I, I gave my kids jeans and I gave my kids a zip code, but more important than anything else, I love them more than anything in the world. And whether that has an effect on their outcome, I don't know. But, you know, it's what, it's what, it's what parents do. But I don't, I think a lot of parents are mistaken about how much. Control how much effect they have over who their kids become.

• 25:18Scott Galloway?

  And what about being a good partner? What about being a good husband?

• 25:21Speaker 05

  When it comes to regret, I think it's really important to talk to your partner, even your kids about your own regrets. That is, a lot of times people sit with their regrets. They they think that somehow they're the only one who doesn't have, who has, who has those regrets. And there we have ample evidence showing that writing about your regret or talking about your regret. It can be quite effective because it's unburdening, it's a sense making. And the other mistake that we make. This is true not only with our kids and with our partners, but out there in the world is that we mistakenly believe that when we talk about our mistakes or our screw ups or setbacks, that people will think less of us. When in fact, we have some good evidence that people think more of us, that they admire our candor, they admire our courage.

• 26:03Speaker 05

  So I think one thing you can do with partners and with kids is talk about your regret, but not in a self flagellating way. Talk, you know, say, here's something I regret. Here's what I learned from it. And here's what I'm going to do about it. And that's a good way to normalize it. And it's a good way to treat regret as as facts, as as information, as signal, as data. That's really the key.

• 26:21Scott Galloway?

  We have a lot of young people that listen to the pod and I look at, you know, I look at your life and it strikes me doing something really cool, really interesting. You make a good living. Can you provide any advice around in terms of your lived experience when you were a younger man? What did you do well? What did you not do well? If for someone out there who thinks I want to be a great storyteller and make a really good living at it. I want to, I want to be Daniel Pank. Like, what advice would you give to someone, maybe avoiding some of the mistakes or maybe getting there? Although you've gotten there pretty quickly. What advice would you have for someone who says, I want to, I want to be the next Daniel Pank?

• 26:59Speaker 05

  I would say get a better goal than that for starters, because that is, that is, that is, I don't know, that is a terrible goal. Being another Scott Galloway, being another ex, that's a terrible, awful goal. And that's the first, and I would say that with with a degree of harshness, I would say you don't want to be the next blank. You want to be the first you. Beyond that, you know, I mean, among the things that I've, I mean, some of the things that I did right and some of the things that I did wrong. Among the things that I did right were that at a certain point, young, young in my life, relatively young in my life. I kind of stopped caring about what people thought about me. And I felt like earlier in my life, I was fairly concerned about what people thought about. Did they think I was cool? Did they think I was smart? Did they think I was accomplished and so forth?

• 27:40Speaker 05

  And then I came to this startling revelation about what people thought about me. And that was, they weren't thinking about me. Nobody was thinking about me because everybody's thinking about themselves. And so that was like a great liberating moment. So don't think too much. Don't think, don't care about what other people think. That's, that's the most important thing. I'm, you know, the rest of it, I think is pretty standard. It's like, I'm a, you know, if you outwork people and you take more shots on goal than people, than most people, you're gonna be all right. I mean, if you, if you don't care what people think, you outwork them, other people, and you take more shots on goal, you're gonna be all right. I mean, I don't, can't tell you how exactly it's gonna happen, but it's gonna be all right.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  The, the other thing that I would tell people is forget about planning in, in any kind of detailed way. One of the things that I suggest that young people do is that they find a Scott Galloway. They find someone who's doing something cool, you know, someone in their 50s or whatever, who's doing something cool, who's doing something interesting. Oh my God, that'd be so great to have a pie. Oh, it'd be so great to do that. And I say, talk to that person and ask them how they got there. And I say, I guarantee you that 49 out of 50 interesting, accomplished people answer the question like this.

• 28:56Speaker 05

  It's a long story because it was failure, it was circuitous, it was unplanned, there was serendipity, there was good luck, there was bad luck. And so, you know, if you, again, outwork, take more shots on goal, don't care what people think, be generous, do great work, you're gonna be fine, truly. I mean, you really are. I mean, I, it's easy, you know, it's easy to say from the vantage point of someone who was 60 years old, but it's true. The one thing that I didn't do well, Scott, I think I relied too heavily on myself throughout my life, especially professionally. And I never, like, someone says, who's your mentor? I said, I don't have a friggin' mentor. I never had, I never had a great, I never had

• 29:39Speaker 05

  like a mentor. Not because like people weren't kind and generous to me. It's because I was sort of too arrogant to think that I needed something like that. And so, one of the things that I could have done a better job on is finding mentors, seeking advice from a wide range of people, doing a better job of working through other people, rather than simply do everything on my own. That's one thing that I could get better at in the next chapter of my life.

• 30:07Speaker 05

  We'll be right back.

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• 31:17Scott Galloway?

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• 32:02Scott Galloway?

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• 32:25Scott Galloway?

  You're part of a year-long project with the Washington Post Opinion section called "Why Not?" I want to talk about some of the things that your readers, or some of the ideas that your readers responded especially strongly to. The idea of paying teachers $100,000 a year. You said that left turns in the busiest intersections should be banned. And in another column, you posed the question, or you suggested that on your birthday, you should give other people presents. So pick any or all of them and say more.

• 32:54Speaker 05

  So the column, as you mentioned, is called "Why Not?" We take ideas that seem to be out of the realm of possibility and say, "Well, why not? So let's pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year. We're losing too many good teachers. Teachers are not respected enough. So let's put our money where our mouth is and actually pay teachers a minimum salary of $100,000 a year." I got an amazing amount of love and amazing amount of hate from that column, which is a good sign. People saying, "This is the greatest idea ever." Other people saying, "What are you talking about? No teacher is worth that amount of money." So that's one. The best idea, in my view, is banning left turns in the busiest intersections in the busiest cities. And this seems nutty. But there is, there's a guy at Penn State, an engineer at Penn State.

• 33:38Speaker 05

  He's done huge numbers of papers on this. And essentially, in the busiest intersection, first of all, in the busiest intersections of the busiest cities, we have incredible numbers of collisions and actually a shocking number of deaths and injuries in those particular places. We also have, they also, it also contributes massively to pollution and, and climate change. And so if we just ban left turns, even if it requires some people to make three right turns, what the evidence shows is that everybody gets to where they're going faster. Because you're, instead of accumulating these, you're stuck behind some, I live in Washington, right? I'm driving up Wisconsin Avenue and there's some schmo in front of me who's turning left and I'm stuck waiting behind him as he turns left onto Albemarle or wherever. All right?

• 34:23Speaker 05

  And so, but if you eliminate that all the way through, people will get where they're going faster. The math on this is inexorable. And also, we know that UPS and its tracking software generally requires its drivers to make three rights rather than one left because it saves massively on time and on fuel. And then there's giving presents on your birthday rather than receiving presents on your birthday. I think it's a nice, I think it's a nice tradition. I did it on my 60th birthday, basically as a way to balm my existential crisis of turning 60. And so what I did is I found, you know, 90 something people in my life who I was grateful for. And I created these custom pencils because I love pencils. As you can see, I see I'm holding a pencil right here.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  And, and I gave people these set of three pink pencils with a note telling them that I valued them in my life and I was glad to have them in my life. And it was a, it was a cool, meaningful thing to do. And I sort of skated past the existential dread of that day.

• 35:20Scott Galloway?

  I like that. I just drank a lot, so.

• 35:25Speaker 05

  They're not mutually exclusive.

• 35:27Scott Galloway?

  There you go. Here's a pencil to drink stir. You've been in the media game mostly through books for a while. I'm curious, how do you see, how is the changing or the shifting media landscape? You're technically a curator. I don't know your presence on social media. How is the media landscape, is the changing media landscape been good or bad for Daniel Pink? And how are you adapting what you do based on changes in the media landscape?

• 35:55Speaker 05

  You know what? It's a great question, Scott. And whether it's good or bad for me, I don't know. I mean, it's harder to contend with because what you have is you have this kind of perfect storm here where the barriers to, forgive the cliche, but what you have is the barriers to entry are essentially zero to create stuff. And then the shelves on which the stuff sits are infinite. Okay. And then you have something, a device that allows you access to all that stuff and you carry it on your person all waking hours. That's a big freaking deal. And that's very different from when I was, when I started out 25 years ago. And so for me, you know, I'm trying to, I spend very little time on social media. I spend very, I just don't like it.

• 36:40Speaker 05

  I don't find it interesting. But I think that things like podcasts are extraordinary. When I, when I promoted my first book, I did a radio satellite tour. When I promoted my last book, I did 138 podcast interviews. All right, that's a different, that's a different media landscape. I think that video and TV is actually really, really interesting right now. So, you know, if I were to, I did a television show on a cable, on a cable network, you know, eight or nine years ago. I don't think I'd do that again. If I were to, if I were to create a new television show, I would go straight to YouTube. And I think that that is, I think that's, I think that's super, I think that's super interesting. And so, so, you know, is it good for me? Is it bad for me? I don't know, but it is for me. And so you have to deal.

• 37:26Speaker 05

  But it's been a big change, I have to say. And, and I also think that books have changed, Scott.

• 37:31Speaker 05

  You know, I think that, that, that books are not, I'm a writer. So my muscle memory, my instinct, when I have an idea. Is to write a book. And I am actually trying to check that impulse because it might, that might not be the best vessel, the best expression of that set of ideas, that set of arguments, that set of stories. It might be something in another medium. So that's how, that's some of the ways that I'm trying to adapt to this, this new media landscape.

• 37:59Scott Galloway?

  Daniel Pink is the author of various bestselling books on a range of topics, including human motivation, the science of timing and creativity. His books include the New York Times bestsellers, The Power of Aggression, A Whole New Mind, and When, as well as the number one New York Times bestseller, Drive. And To Sell is Human. He currently has a column with the Washington Post called Why Not? He joins us from, you're in DC, is that right, Daniel?

• 38:24Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 38:25Scott Galloway?

  So I, this was such a nice moment for me because I remember seeing your video and thinking, I want to be like that guy. I just want to do cool work that inspires people and-

• 38:35Speaker 05

  But you're doing it now, man.

• 38:37Scott Galloway?

  Well, I know, but you're, you and others were a big part of that. I just very much appreciate your work and I, it's had, it's had an impact on me. It's really, quite frankly, it gave me a lot of motivation because it was inspiring. So keep on trucking, my brother. You're doing a great job.

• 38:56Scott Galloway?

  This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Caroline Shager. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Box Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prop G Markets Pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

• 39:17Speaker 07

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