Part 1: An NBA Midseason Power Poll, Plus OSU vs. Notre Dame with Joel Anderson and Van Lathan

In Part 1 of a two-part podcast, The Ringer's Bill Simmons shares his (almost) midseason NBA Power Poll, in which he ranks all 30 NBA teams (2:31). Then, Bill is joined by Joel Anderson to discuss his past narrative projects, the evolution of sports documentaries, Jimmy Butler watch, the exciting Houston Rockets, and wishing to get Zion Williamson to a different team (1:03:03). Van Lathan then joins Bill and Joel to discuss the College Football National Championship, what Notre Dame's relationship with America is in 2025, and Joel's five favorite things for the 2024-25 college football season (1:27:04). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Joel Anderson and Van Lathan Producer: Kyle Crichton and Chia Hao Tat The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, I have an NBA midseason power poll plus college football, a lot of it next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop, only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September

• 0:40Bill Simmons?

  27th and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 1:20Bill Simmons?

  We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network. I don't have a new rewatchables for you this week. We did record a long giant mailbag that we're going to run on Monday's episode, and then we'll be back to a normal schedule after that. So thanks for your patience on that one. You can also check out The Ringer Movies YouTube channel for a lot of the old rewatchables we've done, as well as the Spotify archives.

• 1:39Bill Simmons?

  We're also brought to by FanDuel Sportsbook, where we're still doing 30 on 30. It's a profit boost token. We do it on Fridays. Any 30-plus point scorer or 30 on 30 special bet gets boosted with a little profit boost. Like, for instance, Shea Gildes Alexander is playing Dallas on Friday, the team that knocked them out of the playoffs. They don't have Luka. If you think he's going to get a little revenge game, just put a little 30, 30-plus on it, get the profit boost token, and it's great. So look for 30 on 30 on the FanDuel Sportsbook app. Coming up on this podcast...

• 2:21Bill Simmons?

  It's basically midseason NBA, so I wanted to get down a giant power pole and count that everybody from 30 to one. So we did that and it took longer than I thought. Sorry. I had a lot to say. Followed by Joel Anderson, recent addition to The Ringer, who we're going to talk sports culture and a lot of college football. Then Van Lathan comes in to talk about the championship game and, uh, and Joel's five favorite things in college football. So that is part one of this podcast because I'm going to do a part two later with NFL million dollar picks. That's going to go up, I don't know, 10, 11 hours from now. So that is the schedule. Everything is, um, okay here in Southern California. Definitely

• 3:03Bill Simmons?

  better than it was three days ago. Still terrible, but, um, we got through all the wins on Tuesday and Wednesday. And now the recovery and all that stuff is in full swing. I'm going to talk about, uh, some charities and stuff that I like in part two of the podcast. So, um, here's part one. Going to do the midseason power pole. One second. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:44Bill Simmons?

  It's the January 16th, almost midseason NBA power pole. We're going to go from team number 30 all the way down to team number one, separated by sections. I'm going to get off a bunch of tapes. So going backwards, there's five teams that are just openly tanking right now. I'm putting them in the capture the flag territory for Cooper flag. Get a lot of buzz lately that Cooper flag. I don't care if they do six foot seven. He's going to be awesome. Washington, six and 32, Charlotte, nine and 28, Toronto, 10 and 31, Utah, 10 and 29. That's our 30 to 27 rankings. What's interesting is none of those teams really have an awesome trade piece. Um, Utah has a couple smaller ones like Sexton's interesting.

• 4:27Bill Simmons?

  Clarkson, although he's not having a great year. Uh, Brooklyn at number 26 is our big entry for this. They're 14 and 27. They lost by 59 points last night and it felt worse. Cam Johnson would be the potential move for them. Pretty decent contract. We've talked about it before on the podcast. It's basically 22 million a year for a couple of years. Could he go to Memphis for Smart and Larrabia to first and touch first baby? I couldn't find a lot of trades for him because a lot of teams don't have contracts to patch together.

• 5:01Bill Simmons?

  Around that mid 20s stuff, or if they do, like some of the second apron teams, what they're sending out has to be more than what Cam Johnson makes. It's a little complicated, but Memphis was the one team I was kind of looking at. A fun, a fun topic with the Nets is what's Ben Simmons' next contract?

• 5:19Bill Simmons?

  Probably minimum. Would somebody get frisky around like July 6th and be like, ah, Ben Simmons, all NBA a couple of years ago? And all of a sudden he's making two years for 20? Who knows? I really like this draft though, and I'm just starting to get into it. Once football ends, I'm going to throw myself into it a little bit more because it's, it's fun. But flag, love, two Rucker kids, the Lithuanian kid at Illinois. I think there's real stakes and I think we're going to see some, some pretty incredible tanking as we get on this stretch. The next category is the pre-tankers, which includes Portland at 25. They're 13 and 26.

• 5:57Bill Simmons?

  If you catch them on the right night, they look pretty good. It's a weird team. They remind me of when you go through like one of those old basketball handbooks or like basketball reference. And you go to like the 1979 season and just look at the players on teams. You're like, hmm, that's an interesting team. What were they thinking there? They have three centers and no point guards and eight wings. What the hell was this team? That's kind of Portland right now. I also think Deandre Ayton probably should have played in 1979. Might've been a better year for him.

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what this team is. I don't know what the point of it is, and I'm not sure they know either. I don't know what the trades are. Ayton is now untradeable, I think. He's been, he's been pretty bad. Scoot is the one they have to figure out if they can unlock as an asset. He had 39 points two nights ago. My stockbroker called me immediately. But before that 39 point game was trending.

• 6:54Bill Simmons?

  Toward the most wrong I've ever been about a lottery pick in the last 35 years. And I actually made a list. I went through and I tried to remember guys that I was super high on and why didn't it work out going backwards. I think these were the big, the biggest misses for me. Wiseman 2020.

• 7:11Bill Simmons?

  Not 100% my fault. Mostly my fault. Not 100% my fault. It was the COVID year. He had barely played at Memphis. Theoretically, he made sense as like this big guy who could pass, who could, you know, it just, it just didn't work out. I don't have a ton of regrets about it like I do with Scoot where I just thought Scoot was going to be this downhill Russell Westbrook, unbelievable athlete guy. And we just haven't seen it. I have no excuses with Scoot. Wiseman, there's some excuses. Lonzo in 2017, I was super high on and he just got hurt. So I don't feel bad about that. Jabari Parker, 2014, I really liked. Now, his knees were made of facili. So I don't know how much blame I can get for that one,

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  but he will also belong to this different era. He made way more sense in the 1990s and 2000s, what his game was, the scoring small forward couldn't guard anybody. And then as the league shifted, it's like, is he a four, is he a three? So I feel a little bad about that one, but not like, not Scoot level. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist in 2012, I loved. I liked him at Kentucky. I just thought he was going to be an incredible three and D guy. Once he learned how to shoot threes, guess what? Never learned how to shoot threes. He had some weird elbow thing. His elbow was always like, I forget what it was, like a childhood injury or something. He just could never shoot. This one is probably my worst one since Scoot. Derrick Williams in 2011.

• 8:38Bill Simmons?

  I still don't know what happened here. When you think like where the league was going 2011, that's right when Curry was starting to blow up a little bit of Golden State. Maybe a year later was when the Curry and the threes started. But Derrick Williams on paper, like the perfect stretch four, like just exactly what you'd want. Somebody, good athlete who could rebound and shoot threes. And I don't really know what happened. He went to Minnesota. It just, it just, I'd love to do his career again. I'm not going to admit 100% defeat on it, but I'll admit 90% defeat. Ricky Rubio, 2009. My two favorite guys in that draft were Curry and Rubio and not in that order because I liked Rubio more. I thought Rubio was going to be a generational point guard. I was all in.

• 9:21Bill Simmons?

  I'm not positive I was wrong because first of all, he goes to that weird Minnesota team. They have 100 point guards. He doesn't come over right away. Right as it's starting to really happen for him on the T Wolves, Kobe crashed into his knee and he blew out his ACL and he just, he was never the same. I would love to do his career over again. I still feel like I was right on him and it just didn't happen. So still not as bad as Scoot. And then the last one, Jay Williams in 2002. I think I have a column in the archive somewhere where I thought he was a better pick than Yao Ming. I'm not positive I was wrong. Jay Williams was a really exciting guard. I remember we talked about this on, he came on my podcast like seven, eight years ago.

• 10:02Bill Simmons?

  He was an electric Russbrook, Westbrook, Westbrook Rose kind of athletic point guard that he was definitely something. Then he had the motorcycle accident, we'll never know. So out of all of these, I think Scoot was just the biggest miss for me because I thought athletically, what he was as a downhill guy and as a competitor, I just thought he was going to be awesome and I missed it. And I'm still holding on to stock. Maybe it'll turn around 39 points the other night. Not giving up yet. All right. Number 25, number 24, Chicago. They're 18 and 23. Super fun team, great league pass team. Levine has been awesome.

• 10:45Bill Simmons?

  Levine has rejuvenated himself as a trade value asset to the point that if you're ranking him against all the other guys who are definitely available, you'd probably want him the most. You definitely want him more than Beal. So he's 23, five and five. He's like a 50, 40, 80 guy this year. He's had good games against really good teams. Like he had two games, two really good games against Knicks, really good game against Boston, two really good games against Memphis, a really good game against San Antonio. He's, he's putting up big stats against excellent defensive teams.

• 11:19Bill Simmons?

  And I think he's a really interesting trade piece as we head toward the deadline. Because I don't know why Chicago wouldn't, wouldn't want to explore trading him. But compared to Bale and some of the other ones, even Jimmy Butler, who you just have no idea where his head's at. I think he's a legit trade asset. I think Vucevic is a legit trade asset. On the other hand, why, why give those guys away? Like you're, you're, you're going to be a top 10 draft pick anyway, probably. I don't know why I would just be like, yeah, sure. Take Vooch for protected first. I'd rather just keep him and, and hope his value goes up. Regardless, this is the perfect Jerry Reinsdorf team.

• 11:59Bill Simmons?

  They're mediocre, they're fun to watch, they're not the luxury tax, and keep cashing those checks, Jerry. Next category, we just did the pre-tankers. I'm calling this category, the rock in the hard place. Number 23, Philadelphia. They're 15 and 24. That's really awful. Four and 19 against above 500 teams. Yikes. Paul George, he's played 26 games. He's shooting 42%. 2.7 free throw attempts a game. As you know, I love free throw attempts because it tells you, does somebody go to the basket or not? He doesn't go to the basket anymore. Not sure what he's doing.

• 12:43Bill Simmons?

  He was 5.3 free throw attempts two years ago. Just in general, looks old. I don't know if this is a phase because he was hurt before the year. Maybe his conditioning wasn't there, maybe podcasting. Maybe he's proving that podcasting is more grueling than you guys gave it credit for. He doesn't look the same. And he doesn't look the same to the point that I think if Philly called Miami and said, we'll give you Paul George for Jimmy Butler. I don't think Miami does it. I don't think they want any part of three more years after this year of Paul George. So he's hit that point already. Unless he can show on a basketball court that he's better than that. Because right now, we're not seeing it. I didn't like when he complained about playing the five when Embiid's out. And he said it was, this is just not that fun for me.

• 13:27Bill Simmons?

  You're trying to win games, you're 15 and 24. Maybe do whatever it could take to make the team better. Rough signing. So you have that. The Nick Nurse thing has gone terribly and I am not ruling him out for the Amazon NBA studio show next season. I think he's got to be in there.

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  Embiid, this is the big thing.

• 13:51Bill Simmons?

  13 games, 389 minutes this year. For his career, he's missed 404 games now. And he's played 446. So he's edging toward 50 50, I played or I didn't play for my entire career.

• 14:09Bill Simmons?

  They had a four and five this week. That was the biggest stretch of their season. Playing all playoff teams, all really good teams. He missed the first two. We'll see what happens with the others. He's got knee stuff plus a foot thing and

• 14:25Bill Simmons?

  it just doesn't seem like it's going to happen again in the same way. I remember Goldsberry asked me earlier in the air, is, is, is he in like a 2008 Shaq stage? Embiid, 2008 Shaq played, he was, I think, third team NBA. Embiid doesn't play. And when you miss, when you miss 404 games over the course of 11 years, yikes. When he did play, offensively, looks great, can still get, can still get to the free throw line, can still make that little 20 footer at the top of the key. Is still big and huge. He falls down all the time, falls down more than ever. I think his fall down per 48 minutes is the highest it's ever been.

• 15:06Bill Simmons?

  The thing that was really alarming with him was the Golden State game a couple of weeks ago. I'm not sure if you guys saw it, but Golden State was just doing the, the thing where they just, everybody's cutting and moving and passing and the ball's flying around. They're doing 2014 Spurs thing. And Embiid was wandering around like a drunk guy outside of the bar and at 2:15 in the morning, trying to keep up with it. And if you watch that one game, you would say to yourself, it is impossible to think that this team could win four straight playoff rounds, which if they make the playoffs now, they'd have to win at least one playing game, maybe two. They'd have to play Cleveland in round one, right? Then you'd have to play the winner of whoever the four or five is. And then the Knicks Celtics would be waiting in the la, I mean,

• 15:52Bill Simmons?

  there's no way. So I was thinking like,

• 15:56Bill Simmons?

  The Knicks, who they always had this relationship with Embiid, with, uh, with Leon Rose and Wes, and those were his guys. And it was always like, well, if he ever gets unhappy in Philly, the Knicks will trade for him. Can you imagine if the Knicks went all in for Embiid last summer? And instead of getting towns and bridges, they basically took all those assets and just had Embiid. And then what happened with Embiid this year, 13 games, 389 minutes, was happening in New York after they had the super fun team last year? It's a bullet dodge, my friends. Anyway, they are number 23, and I think we can cross them off as a title contender. I'm ready to do that. New Orleans, up to 22, they're 10 and 32.

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  We knew they would be a what the fuck happened to that team in the West, and they're, they're the team. They had a stretch where their body language was the worst in the league. Their home court, when they do the wide shot, all the seats at midcourt, like maybe one third of them are full. The energy is just super, super, super weird.

• 17:01Bill Simmons?

  They should probably be doing everything possible to suck at this point.

• 17:05Bill Simmons?

  And yet, when you watch them, which I've watched a couple of games, they've turned into a really fun league pass team. Trey Murphy's playing great. Zion's back. Murray's back.

• 17:17Bill Simmons?

  They're, they're, they're a good team when everybody's playing. They're not a great team, but they're a good team. You would think they were like a six to 10 playoff seed potentially with everybody. They haven't had anybody, but they're 10 and 32. And I don't know what the move is, because it's really hard for them to tank when they have as many good players as they do. And one thing they gotta get credit for, they, they just nail their draft pick every year. Like Messi's like been, has a chance to win Rookie of the Year this year. Every year, it seems like they hit their pick. Trey Murphy, who they just resigned, but Hawkins, I like all these guys. And they have a bunch of trade assets. Ingram, 36 million, expiring. Zion, 36.7 with outs every year. McCollum, 33 and 30.6. Sorry CJ for mentioning you in a trade rumor.

• 17:59Bill Simmons?

  Murray, 29.5. They have moves. I just don't know what the move is. And, um, my guess is they'll probably limp along for the next month and try to figure out what they are and if they keep winning games. Maybe start trying to talk themselves into a run at the 10 seed, which would kind of be insane, but what else are you gonna do? You have all these good basketball players who are trying to play hard.

• 18:22Bill Simmons?

  This is a team to watch. It's a team to watch from a spoiler standpoint, from a trade machine standpoint, and then the Zion piece of it where he just, he goes away for four, five, six weeks, whatever it was, comes back and looks really good. It doesn't look fat or out of shape. And you're like, whoa, this is going great. And then the story comes out, they have to suspend him because he's repeated the late to practices and stuff. And you just go, this guy just never, ever going to get it. I would still trade for him if I was a team like San Antonio. We'll get to that in a second. Next category, the trade machine heroes.

• 18:55Bill Simmons?

  Phoenix, number 21. They're 19 and 20. Their last 15 games, they're basically 22nd net, 26th defense for points per 100 possessions. This team's just not good. You, you can talk yourself into, oh, they just got, I don't see it. I watched them play whoever and I'm very invested in them because this is going to be the, probably the first FanDuel super boost we've lost since 2020. We thought they were going to get 47 plus wins. We thought they were going to shoot a bunch of threes. Brusello, House and I were all aligned on it. And then you watch them and I just don't see it. They can't rebound. They can't protect

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  the rim. The guys don't seem like they like playing with each other. You watch them play a team, I don't know, like pick a bad team, like they'll play like Charlotte or Washington or whoever. And you're watching the back and forth. You're like, I'm not sure they're much better than this other team. The league's just really good and really deep. And what's funny, KD and Booker are both over 36 minutes a game and they've actually had them for most of the year. It's a team that makes more sense on paper in 2017 than in 2025 when you need depth. They just threw away depth. The Beal trade. The Beal trade was Chris Paul, Shamet.

• 20:18Bill Simmons?

  2024, 26, 28, 30, first round swaps with Washington and a bunch of seconds for Beal. And it's, it was a terrible trade when it happened. I hated it. I thought they left themselves with no outs. I was not a giant Beal guy. And now he's at 50, 53.7 and 57 million for the, this year and the next two with a no trade clause and they can't trade him. He knows they can't trade him. I'm not sure he gives a crap. They have Nurkic at 18 and 19. They have Grayson Allen at basically 16 this year and then three more years after that. And those are their trade assets and nobody wants Beal. Nobody, not, not one team. I don't know what they do. I do know this. I was thinking about the worst big threes of all time. Cause we did use the big three. I didn't.

• 21:02Bill Simmons?

  But we used the big three word with the, with Durant and Booker and Beal.

• 21:08Bill Simmons?

  This is up there for, for worst big three of all time. But I think the answer, as much as I love Steve Nash is Kobe and Dwight and Nash, that one year with the Lakers when people were calling them the big three. And then Nash was like, his body just completely broke down. Kobe hated Dwight. That's probably our worst big three. You could talk me into LeBron and AD and Russ. Some people tried to get it going when Russ and Paul George and Carmelo were on the same team that one year. But this is like a possible Mount Rushmore. Oh my God, I can't believe we called them the big three kind of situation. It's also another unhappy Kevin Durant team. So we have the 2019 Warriors unhappy. 2022 and 23 Nets unhappy, unhappy. 2024 Suns unhappy.

• 21:52Bill Simmons?

  2025 Suns currently unhappy. I'm just flagging it. Maybe it's a coincidence.

• 22:03Bill Simmons?

  One more other thing with them. They keep, Beal keeps being mentioned in trades. As if anyone's trading for him. And it's like, well, Jimmy Butler really wants to go to Phoenix. Cool, you're gonna have to trade Kevin Durant or Devin Booker for Jimmy Butler, because you're not getting him for Bradley Beal. Nobody wants that contract. Nobody wants Bradley Beal. I think he's the number one trade asset you don't want in the entire league. Sorry Bradley Beal, but it's true. The Suns are the guy in your fantasy league who texts you and tries to trade you Deandre Swift for Brock Bowers. Hey, I see you need a running back. What about Swift for Bowers? And you're just like, dude, stop. Nobody wants Beal. There's, nobody wants Nurkic. It's like, yeah, you're not getting Vucevic for Nurkic and a couple of number twos.

• 22:48Bill Simmons?

  Stop, it's not happening. The whole league is annoyed by the Suns. It's a really important point. Everyone in the league is like, Ishbia is just on a bender and, and this team is insane. And stop calling us. Miami at number 20, speaking of Bradley Beal. They're 20 and 19. It's weird, they're, they're, you know, in the top half of the league in offense and defense, they're getting an awesome Tyler Hero year, who at the end of some of these games, has really been a pretty special offensive player sometimes. You watch, you catch a certain Heat game with two minutes left and he's just like slicing and dicing somebody. I think that's one of the reasons Butler might not have been 100% happy with this Miami

• 23:29Bill Simmons?

  situation, because when you watch him, there's games where Hero just seems like a way better option at the end of games. Bam's offensively is just taking a huge step back and I don't really know whether it's, whether it's a, an aberration or what's going on there, but it's worth mentioning that I don't think he's as big of an asset as he was last year. Maybe he'll come back. But if you don't get a star back in a Jimmy Butler trade, what's the point of this team? Because your top two is Bam and Hero. Congratulations. I don't know where that's getting you with the way the league is now with how deep and awesome it is. So with Jimmy, no deal works with Houston and Memphis because they don't want him. Dallas or Milwaukee, they don't have anything they could trade back.

• 24:14Bill Simmons?

  Sacramento, there's like a DeRozan, Herter, Trey Lyles or Keegan Murray, but I, if I'm Sacramento, I don't, I don't want to deal with Jimmy Butler and trade for him and then he's unhappy in Sacramento and then he's opting in for 50 plus next year. I'm not doing that. Denver, I don't think Miami takes Michael Porter Jr. Plus Najee, which I think that that would basically have to be the trade. I'm also not sure Jimmy Butler solves whatever issue Denver has because they're already like shaky enough with three-point shooting and then they're going to get rid of Michael Porter Jr. I don't like that trade for anybody. Plus Denver's playing better. Phoenix, they're not taking Beal. Golden State's not trading Wiggins and Kaminga and other stuff for Jimmy Butler.

• 25:01Bill Simmons?

  And if I'm Miami, I'm not trading Jimmy unless I can get Zion in a three-way.

• 25:07Bill Simmons?

  I mean, a basketball three-way. Ingram and McCollum together from New Orleans with Butler and Rozier going out. I would consider that. I don't know why New Orleans would do that.

• 25:19Bill Simmons?

  Tobias Harris and Tim Hardaway is expiring, plus maybe a protected pick from Detroit.

• 25:26Bill Simmons?

  It's a little more interesting because the Kate has become a top 20 player in the league. And if you're the Pistons, you could just turn, you basically make a 30, 30 cents in the dollar trade and get Jimmy Butler and hope that he's excited for the next year and a half. Paul George mentioned earlier, no way.

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  And then there's maybe a trade where you just get cap space back, but I, I thought for sure Jimmy Butler was going to get traded and then the more I, I kind of sniffed around, talked to different people, tried to figure out the trades.

• 25:58Bill Simmons?

  I don't think there's a trade. So I don't know what happens here and maybe there's a surprise team like, oh my God, the Pistons traded for him. There's one team coming up later that we'll mention for this, but I'm really having trouble and I'm the trade machine. Picasso. Let's, uh, we'll take a break and we'll finish the power pole right after this.

• 26:20Bill Simmons?

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• 27:02Bill Simmons?

  Sportsbook app or head to FanDuel.com/BS for your choice to score a bigger payout this Friday. Don't miss your chance to find out how much more 30 can be worth with FanDuel's 30 on 30. Must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC. Opt-in required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration and max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.FanDuel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG-help.com. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike and the same is true off the field.

• 27:47Bill Simmons?

  That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, next category for the power pole is the feel-good upstarts. That can only be the Detroit Pistons. I have them number 19th. They're 21 and 19th. They had a huge bummer with Jaden Ivey getting hurt, which a game that I was actually watching when it happened in a play that the guy diving for the loose ball goes into the side of somebody's leg that you just think would happen more often in the NBA and never does. And then when it happens, it's awful. But that was a bummer because they were really starting to figure out something with him and Cade. I really liked when he would come set the pick for Cade and they would kind of do this small man's pick and roll thing.

• 28:31Bill Simmons?

  So Cade is basically 24, 7, and 10.

• 28:38Bill Simmons?

  And he's 45%, 38% from three. He's going to be on the All-Star team. And he's turned into an awesome asset. And it, we were unclear the first couple of years, especially with the way the team was losing. But I am willing to redo now my number one pick since Tim Duncan list where there's eight definitive no's. You would not take this guy again. Ayton, Fultz, Simmons, Bennett, Oden, Bargnani, Kwame Brown, Olajuwon Candy. I still can't believe Olajuwon Candy went first. 19, the late 90s were unbelievable for basketball content. I really wish I'd had a bigger audience back then. The sort of list, there's seven guys. Zion, Wiggins, Wall, Bogut, Kmart, Elton Brand. I'm going to put Reese Sche in there too because

• 29:22Bill Simmons?

  I like Reese Sche. He's like 19. We have no idea what's going to happen with him. But that's like a sort of, you can see it. There's a case for it. Some of those guys like Zion and maybe even Wiggins, maybe the next five years we'll even boost them into the yes category. And then the yes guy, you would take this again. Wemby, Paulo, Edwards, three great ones, three great number one overall picks there. Anthony Davis, Kyrie, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, LeBron, Yao. That was 10 the last time I did this. We have two additions. I think Karl-Anthony Towns is officially a yes. He's been a really good number one overall pick, especially the fact that he was part of a really good Minnesota team last year that almost made the finals. And then

• 30:06Bill Simmons?

  this year, you know, one of the, one of the best 12 players in the league so far. So he's in there. And then I think Kate is a yes though. I think when you think about, did that number one overall pick, did that work? Did that kind of work? Did that not work? He definitely 100% worked. So kudos to him. I'm still interested to see what they do with Tobias Harris and Hardaway as trade bait because you can get to 41 million with them. They also have this 14 million under the cap situation. So there's a lot of fun stuff they can do and the fact that they're over 500 even without Ivy in an Eastern Conference that has been pretty weird. I'd like to see them do something. All right. Next team, Sacramento, number 18. They are 20 and 20.

• 30:49Bill Simmons?

  This team would have been a three seed six years ago and now they have a fired coach and, and I don't know what the hell they are. They had, they fired Mike Brown. They lost the first game. They won a couple goofy games that they shouldn't have won and now got the momentum and now all of a sudden the vibes are good. It's like, see, that's why we fired Mike Brown. I'm not sure that was the difference. Obviously not in the locker room, but I just think they had some bad luck earlier in the season and they got some better luck later. Now they're, now DeRozan's starting to look better. Fox missed a couple of games. I was watching them because House and Sal and I and Hench, we did a, we did a parlay over under wins total bet like three weeks ago and one of them was Sacramento

• 31:31Bill Simmons?

  under. I think it was like 42 wins. And we were like Sacramento, this is, this team's falling apart. And then they fired the coach five days later and now it's coming back with Doug Christie, former star of BasketballWise.

• 31:44Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what happens with them. I'll tell you this though. There was a moment with the Kings where it felt like they were full Kings and you go, there are 13 coaches in 20 years. They had that light the beam season, then they overextended Sabonis, they did the Barnes extension. Vazancoff, that signing was terrible. They blew Devon Carter pick. They did DeRozan, it was just like, oh, the Kings are back. But now they're playing well. So I don't know. I'm sure their fans are confused too.

• 32:10Bill Simmons?

  Interesting playing team, by the way, because Fox, you know, they're, Fox and Sabonis, they have two of the top 25 guys in the league. So I'm not positive I would want to see them in the eight, nine. Lakers, I have 17th, 21 and 17. They're still in the bottom 10 in the league on defense. They're in the bottom five in the league rebounding. Two things that scare me. There was a Dallas game last week when Dallas abused Austin Reeves to the point that I thought, I thought the, I thought Reeves' corner was going to throw in the towel. And that's the rub with this Lakers team is that any smart team can just attack them defensively. And it's like, pick your guy. Do you want to attack Reeves? Oh, connects out there? Let's attack him.

• 32:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh, LeBron's decided not to move around on defense today. Let's just start doing back cuts and making him move around. They're just too easy to score on. I like the Finney Smith trade though. And Max Christie's playing better and.

• 33:12Bill Simmons?

  I don't dislike the roster. I think they have real issues that are going to surface in the playoffs, but as a regular season team, especially when LeBron plays well or Davis plays well in any given game, it feels like they can beat just about anybody except for like seven teams. But for the most part, I this this team not even close to being a contender to me. I can't I it would be a miracle if they won one round.

• 33:36Bill Simmons?

  And the LeBron plus minus stuff is pretty strange. Like I did that like a week ago. I looked it up. He had the worst plus minus of anyone who's playing 30 minutes or more in a winning team. It was minus 6.2. I it's mostly the defense, but um if I were them, if Jeannie Buss asked me what to do, I would tell them not to trade any assets. I don't understand the point of doing that. There's no scenario where they make the finals. No, there's no trade out there that would put them in the finals. So Golden State, number 16, probably in a similar situation. I think the difference is they're in top five defensive rating. They have a bunch of tradable stuff and they desperately need a second scorer.

• 34:17Bill Simmons?

  And you could see a world where if they got a a second guy who could help out Steph, maybe they become friskier. They're they're well coached. They have a lot of continuity together. The problem is if you get somebody like Jimmy Butler, you're going to have to give up Wiggins in the trade. Now I'm losing stuff defensively. I'm losing other assets. So the the the trade that makes sense to me is Vucevic, and it's made say it made sense for, I would say about a month and a half. And it's basically, you know, Looney can be in, he makes 8 million. Moses Moody, put Payton's expiring in there or another is Kyle Anderson, whatever you need to do. Throw in a pick and just add Vucevic and

• 34:58Bill Simmons?

  kind of have him playing off with Curry. Um, they I think somebody told me this. Curry's never had a stretch five in his entire career. Every every guy in the league has played with somebody, a three who could make a three, and and he's just never had it.

• 35:16Bill Simmons?

  Curry's at an interesting point in his career because like he's they they've cut his minutes down to like 31 minutes a game. His per 36 is still right around where you want it to be like his 26 a game, 45%, 42% from three.

• 35:32Bill Simmons?

  But I did my Ringer 100 and I couldn't justify putting him in the top 10 anymore, at least right now. It could change in a month. But if he's your best player on a team and the supporting cast is solid,

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  you're just not a contender. So when I did my top 100, I had Jokic first, Giannis second, I put Shay third, Tatum fourth, Luka fifth for now because he's hurt and there's durability stuff with him that I'm not positive about. I have Wemby sixth, Davis seventh, Mitchell eighth, Brunson nine, Edwards 10, Curry 11. And Curry versus Edwards and Brunson, I think is the big question there, but those guys are just more reliable night to night at this point. Curry's 36. It's just the way it is. If it was one game with my life on it, it's a different question. But if we're talking about a regular season, I don't see how he's in the top 10 right now. That could change. Next category, the Young and Funs.

• 36:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh, by the way, with Golden State, I don't, this is not the Jimmy Butler team for me. Not worth it.

• 36:40Bill Simmons?

  The Young and Funs, I only have one team in this, Atlanta. I have them 15th, 21 and 19. They got Trey going a little bit. We talked about Trey like a month ago. He's up to 23 a game, 12 assists. His shooting percentages are up a little bit.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  And he's had some good games when other guys weren't playing. You can kind of see, oh, this is a game I get to shoot 33 times. I still really like this team as like a stealth.

• 37:09Bill Simmons?

  You'll beat them in round one, but it's probably not going to be that easy. Their three-point shooting is the thing that's been really hurtful to them. Daniels 31%, Reese and Shay 28, Jalen Johnson 32, Bogdanovich 34, not as high as he used to be. I'm still in on these guys. And they've, they've never had all their guys together for more than like two weeks. So when everybody comes back, I don't think they're a trade team to try to get a better asset.

• 37:40Bill Simmons?

  But I think they're going to be like around 44, 45 wins. That's where I have them penciled in just because the East is going to really start tanking. That brings to the next category, secretly scary round one opponents. You could talk, talk yourself into Atlanta being there, but Indiana number 15, definitely. They're 22 and 19. They're 11th in pace this year. They were second last year. So they're a little slower. I think that's Siakam related. They're ninth in offense this year. They were second last year. But the last 15 games, they're fourth in offense. They've had no Neesmith for 35 games. Halburn's had a weird year and every time it seems like he gets going, something happened. He just hurt his hamstring. In general, I like this team and I like what I've seen from Walker the last couple of weeks from them. I want to see this team

• 38:23Bill Simmons?

  in March. This team is like a pause button. Let's see what you look like on March 10th. And then San Antonio is the other team like that. They're 19 and 20. They're always hanging around these games and they haven't quite figured out how to close them. I think last night was a really good example against Memphis, which was an awesome game. They played the most fun game of the season against Denver a couple of Fridays ago. That was the Wemby is officially here. We knew he was already here, but he's officially here now game where Jokic praised him afterwards and talked about how he was generationally special. Really cool moment. Wemby's 25, 11, four assists, four blocks a game. Their defense is sixth in the last 15, which is why you have to consider them

• 39:07Bill Simmons?

  a scary playoff team. Wemby, just that we should have a different Defensive Player of the Year award now because he should just get it every year. We should, we should actually have the number two guy should get a separate award. Nobody's ever winning this award again as long as until Wemby is like 35, assuming he stays healthy. He's, I was talking about him with somebody yesterday. He's a foot longer than everybody realizes when they're playing. And over and over, one of the most fun things about watching him is every, every game, there's four or five moments where somebody is in the paint and they think they're going to get him or they think they're going to shoot a floater or they think they're going to get a layup past them and they just forget he's got this

• 39:48Bill Simmons?

  extra foot that his body goes up. And they're always like, oh, and even as they're shooting it, he's going up and they're realizing mid shot, oh God, he's going to block this and they can't stop it because their body is already committed to it. But uh, he's, the fact that he's growing like he is, which is not surprising. And then Castle has shown some, some, some stuff like he did last night against Memphis. Castle, I think the second half of the year is worth watching as how, what's his ceiling?

• 40:22Bill Simmons?

  This is a terrifying round one team. I don't want to see Wemby in a series, period. Like, there was a play last night in the fourth quarter where he ended up with the ball on the left side of the foul line, where if he turned into the paint, he could have shot a jump hook. And he never goes there. He's always in the, he's always around the three-point line. They always run stuff with him 25 feet from the basket. And in this play, he had the ball because a play broke down and they gave it to him in the top of the foul line. And the other team immediately panicked. He had, the point guard came down and doubled him. Then he turned into the lane. The third guy came in. So now he's being triple teamed. And then somebody back cut and he was able to pass the guy and get a layup. And it made me think like,

• 41:04Bill Simmons?

  when he realizes that the foul line is where he needs to be, that's his spot. The same way Nowitzki realized it, the same way Duncan figured out his spot. I talked about this with Kirk Goldsberry a couple of weeks ago. What, what's Wemby's, what are his spots on the floor? That left side of the foul line, where he can turn and he can either shoot a little 15 footer, or he can put his head down into the paint, jump hook, or pass to a cutter, but everything is coming with his right hand. He can hold the ball up like it's a fucking grape. That's the key to Wemby, I think, going forward. If he figures out that spot, plus he has the top of the key and the, and the ability to shoot threes. Those two things combined, I just think he's going to be an absolute bitch in the playoff.

• 41:49Bill Simmons?

  And I'll tell you something else. This is the number one, holy shit, I can't believe they traded for Jimmy Butler team. Where the Spurs should say, fuck it. We have, this guy's the sixth best guy in the league. Maybe we should see what's up. Would they do that with their culture? I don't know. This is also a holy shit they traded for Zion team. Which, if I was the Spurs, that would be the guy I targeted. Bring him into our organization, our culture, put him with Wemby. Now this is the most terrifying circle on anyone's schedule. It's like, oh my God, we have to play Wemby and Zion today. All right. Next category, puncher's chance. Minnesota, I can't rule them out yet. They're 21 and 19. I have them 12th.

• 42:30Bill Simmons?

  They're, they're up to fifth in defense. They were first last year, but now they're fifth. So that's better. Here's the thing. They finally realized something that I have, uh, I've touted on this podcast many, many times over the years and in my column, and it's something I just instinctively believe in. Just play your best five guys. Stop worrying about positions. Oh, we need somebody who's, people always do this with, with point guards where it's like, well, that guy looks like a point guard. Mike Conley, Godspeed, great career, really enjoyed him. Incredible teammate. Everybody loves him. It's over. He's, he, it happens. This is what happens to point guards. He's done. It's a rap.

• 43:13Bill Simmons?

  So they realized a couple of weeks ago, we should just play DiFenzenzo. And, uh, and not have a point guard and DiFenzenzo is, is reinvested and has been playing really well, and they're playing better.

• 43:26Bill Simmons?

  There's a Conley with Randall where that can get them to about 43 million. They'd have to take somebody back who makes less than that. I don't know if they'd even trade Conley. There's no trade for him straight up because he's got another year after this one. But there's still a move with them and part of that move has to be maybe, maybe get Julius Randall out of here. The, the thing with the Towns trade, which I think has just worked out horribly for them. And this was the worst case scenario of the trade, which was that it boxed them in. Nobody really wants Randall. No, now they had to re-sign Conley. Nobody wants him.

• 44:01Bill Simmons?

  But it was a financial trade and it's yet another reason why Glenn Taylor is one of the five worst NBA owners we've had. The move to trade Towns and then extend Gobert to try to get him on a cheaper deal was just a fucking double whammy. Like you can't bounce back from that. And the lesson as always is A-Rod is a loser. The sleeper. Number 11 Orlando. They're 28th offensively. There's only two teams in the league worse per 100 possessions than Orlando and yet they're four games over 500, their defense and um and their camaraderie and their feistiness and their competitiveness has just carried them in all these games. They're they're uh opposing rebounding.

• 44:47Bill Simmons?

  They're first. Teams are only 40.6 rebounds a game against them. So they're dominating the boards. They're great against the three. Teams are 31% against them with the three. And they get steals, they get all this stuff. The zombie magic. Unfortunately, they can't shoot and they can't score. Palo came back.

• 45:06Bill Simmons?

  Franz is eventually coming back and nobody wants to play this team. They're six seed, seven seed, eight seed. I don't want to see them. The Celtics are the three seed and Orlando's six seed. I'm bummed. That's a really hard team to play. It did make me think though, this is a good example of NBA depth. Being deeper in a significant way than it was 13 years ago. Um, you're talking about players like 75 to 300 are so much better than they were in the early 2010s. Like they have De Silva. Oh, let's just throw him in. He can, we, he, he's not even playing. Now he's in there and we're going to him in crunch time. But Toddsey, I think that's how you

• 45:47Bill Simmons?

  say his name. Isaac, Cole Anthony, Anthony Black, these guys are all good. I was looking at the 2012 Celtics, a team that was up 3-2 in the Eastern Conference Finals with a chance to go to the finals. This was their five through 10 guys in that series. Michael Pietrus, Brandon Bass, Keon Dooling, Marquise Daniels, Greg Steamsma and Ryan Hollins. That was our bench.

• 46:15Bill Simmons?

  The league is way better now.

• 46:18Bill Simmons?

  Number 10, the Clippers. Still can't get a feel for if this team is a contender or not. They're the league's best coach, solid team.

• 46:28Bill Simmons?

  The bottom seven offense, top five defense. They have a pretty good home court advantage now. They have Kawhi. At least at the point where I'm interested to see where it is in March and April. They have this Norm Powell jumping from 14 points a game to almost 24 at age 31, which I think we need a new award. I would get rid of clutch player. I never know how to vote that. I would replace it with the Tommy from Goodfellas. Look at this fucking guy. That would be my award and Norm Powell would win because I have no idea how we went from 14 and 24, but we did.

• 47:03Bill Simmons?

  Harden is interesting because on the one hand, he's one of the reasons that they've overachieved. On the other hand, a lot of his best games seem to come against shit defenses or mediocre teams. And then the worst games, if you really watch carefully, it's like against Houston, OKC, San Antonio, Boston, Minnesota. So there's some fool's gold with the Harden pace, 35% from three, 44% on twos. He's, he seems like he's the same, but he's not. He can still give you a good quarter, but not a whole game. And they really need Kawhi back for me to take them seriously. So that's the last non-contender for me until we see with Kawhi. All right. Next group, definitely lurking. Milwaukee, I have them ninth, 21 and 17. They still have Giannis.

• 47:48Bill Simmons?

  That's it. They're, they're shooting threes way better than I think anyone expected. They're in the top three there. Really good in corner threes. And I don't want to see them in the playoffs if that's okay. Because that's the three, six, possibly if it's Boston, Milwaukee. I don't want to see Milwaukee. I don't want to see Orlando. Actually, the way Boston's playing, I don't want to see anybody, but they're lurking. Dallas is lurking. I'm not willing to make any sort of big judgment with Dallas. Luca's missed 19 games. Kyrie with some back stuff. That's a little scary because he's been in the league for a while and he's a guard. And I always worry about aging guards hitting their early mid 30s. This is a, let's see in March team. For me, also not a lot of moves, but Luca turns 26 next month.

• 48:36Bill Simmons?

  Just pointing that out. Usually you have your apex season, age 27, age 28. So we're in range and it's not this year, but it's a wait and see team for me. Then Houston, number seven. You could talk me into Houston being fifth. You could talk me into them being 12th because I don't think there's an extra gear. I think they're here and they're here every game. And when we get to the playoffs, they're still going to be here. They don't, they don't have the ability to do this because offensively it's just too choppy. They're really keeping their fingers crossed with Jalen Green. I watch a lot of Houston. I really, really, really like watching Houston. We talked about it. We're going to talk about with Joel Anderson in a

• 49:13Bill Simmons?

  second. But the Jalen Green piece is the piece. 43% field goal, 35% threes, 2.6 assists, 4.2 free throw attempts. I'm just reading those stats because this is your crunch time guy. And the odds are he's not going to score or create a shot from somebody else in the biggest moments of the game. So that's one. At least not yet. He's young. Maybe, maybe it's in there. And then Van Vliet's the other one who's 15 points a game, six assists. His clutch numbers are, are probably the worst in the league. And those are kind of their two options at the end of games. So it, it just turns into a rock fight. And the rock fight recipe, they're, they're third to

• 49:54Bill Simmons?

  last in three-point shooting, 28th. They're first in rebounds. And it's just a, you watch the last five minutes and it's like watching 90s basketball again. So, you know, could they turn Van Vliet and a bunch of stuff into Fox? I don't think Sacramento, if I'm Sacramento, I'm not trading Fox, but that's the only way this changes, I think. Otherwise, I'm fine. Joel and I talk about it in the next segment. I'm fine with Houston. Just, hey, this is great. We're a top four seed. Let's see what happens in the playoffs. Let's see if Jalen Green has another gear. Let's see what Shingun can do. Jabari Smith. Let's, let's just see what this looks like for a year and then we'll decide in July who we are. I think that's the move. The contenders, I have six contenders.

• 50:39Bill Simmons?

  Number one is Memphis, who's top seven offense, defense. Brandon Clark's back. Angry Jaws back. Dunking on Wemby last night, even though it didn't count, still fun. Their bench is just, I've never seen anything like this bench. Brandon Clark, Huff, Aldama, Wells, Kennard, Edie, Larravia, Pippen. I mean, not, sometimes a couple of those guys will start, but they, they just can survive an injury to anybody in the team for a week and you don't even notice. The Larravia contract was weird where they didn't, they did the, the Jalen Smith thing, didn't renew it. And now I guess he's a trade piece, but he's playing really well. I want to shout out Wells.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  I used to do when I, when my fingers worked and I had a column, I used to have my Bill Simmons All-Stars for random guys in the league. I, I just love. I love Wells. Wells, watch Memphis and watch if the other team has, you know, a really good swing.

• 51:38Bill Simmons?

  And Wells is a lot of times the guy guarding the swing and really being a pain in the ass. But I, that guy, there's something there with Wells. And that's why when you think about, like, I've heard Cam Johnson mentioned with them and they could easily trade Marcus Smart and Larravia for Cam Johnson, throwing some picks and, and improve that Marcus Smart start. I, I would want to see what I have with these guys for another couple of weeks before I think about a trade. And the team seems like they have good chemistry. They really like each other. There's a regular season versus playoffs conundrum with them that the team in the regular season is perfect with the depth, but in the playoffs, when you have to, when the same team is seeing you six, seven times in two weeks, is there an extra gear? It's the same issue Houston has.

• 52:23Bill Simmons?

  Morant plays three, DNP, plays five, misses eight, plays one, DNP, plays five, DNP, plays two and a half, gets hurt, DNP, plays three, misses five. This is, he's just not on the floor enough and that's why it's the hardest to take them seriously when we have to think about, can they win four straight playoff rounds? We do not have evidence that Morant can play for two months in a row. So until we do, I, I have them as a pseudo contender. I do want to mention, Jaren Jackson's been awesome this year and I loved watching him go at Wemby last night. He really, he, he's one of those guys who, when he's going against Sabonis, Davis, Wemby, like you really could see him being like, I'm taking the challenge tonight. Denver,

• 53:05Bill Simmons?

  number five, let's go. Jokic, 24 and 16, fourth in offense. Their three-point shooting is still abysmal, they're bottom three in the league, but Murray is starting to show signs. As always, online criticism works. No, TV criticism, maybe that works, but Murray does look a little bit better. Um, Jokic has been, you know, they're 25 plus points better when he's out there versus when he's not out there. The Wemby-Jokic battle two Fridays ago was the highlight of the year.

• 53:44Bill Simmons?

  He's doing stuff offensively that doesn't seem conceivable. It seems like it's out of like the 1962 season and right now I don't think he's the MVP because of what SGA is doing and what he means to that OKC team. But what's changed is now they're a top four seed and whatever happens these next two months, maybe he can play himself into that combo. They, they have a GM and coach that famously doesn't seem great. I've heard that they don't talk. I find that hard to believe, but it's the worst kept secret in the league. There was a thing where they presented Malone with some sort of win sting and Calvin Booth is the GM and he presented this jersey and I was like

• 54:25Bill Simmons?

  studying the clip because I was like, I thought these guys didn't interact. I love that Russell Westbrook is relevant on this team. And they really needed him. They needed him when Murray was kind of, you know, flaming out a little bit there for a while. They needed him in, in days when Aaron Gordon, when he got hurt for, they, they just needed his energy, his rebounding, how weird he is, the fact that he just puts up stats. And he's been really good for them. Like I, I think he's been way outkicked his coverage of what they ever could expect with Westbrook, but I was, I wrote down. Putting him on this Jokic team, I'm not sure if it's like Daniel Day-Lewis in an appetit comedy, or Will Ferrell in a Paul Thomas Anderson movie, but it's so weird,

• 55:09Bill Simmons?

  I'm kind of into it. It's, it's, it's just constantly weird. There's a lot of no, no, no Russ shots with like three minutes left where he just decides, I'm gonna take this corner three. But he plays really hard and it really seems like Jokic likes him. So I think he's been a bonus. I think he's kind of saved them in some respects because he's not afraid and he puts up stats. Number four, the Knicks. The Towns trade is just amazing. Just, just an incredible trade. I know their defense dropped, but just when you think like the two assets they gave up versus the one they got back and how great he's been, it's an amazing trade. 25 and 14, 55%, 45% from three.

• 55:51Bill Simmons?

  Really has a chance, if we were doing the old school, center forward guard for all NBA, really has a chance to be second team all NBA, might make second team all NBA anyway. I think I'd rather have him than Anthony Davis at this point, as crazy as that sounds. He's younger and I just think he's more impactful day to day. The Tibs stuff is the thing to watch. The minutes that he's putting on these dudes. Last night, overtime, he's just, hard played 49 minutes. Brunson's playing 40 plus minutes in really hard games and also doing two thirds of the stuff offensively and I just feel like he's gonna burn these dudes out. And as a Celtics fan, this is where I take my basketball analyst part out, just as a Celtics fan, please Tibs, continue to play these guys 40 plus minutes a game.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Thank you. The Celtics, number three, 28 and 12. Second offense, sixth defense. Started out 16 and 3, they're 7 and 7 in their last 14 games. So what's going on? Well, you win the title and it could go one of two ways. Either you have a huge chip on your shoulder and it's like, we got the bullseye. Come get us and you just kick everyone's ass. That would be like the 92 Bulls. Or then the more typical way it goes is you got a little bit of an on off switch. You feel like you can still turn it on and it's going to be there when it needs to be there. The Celtics had a road trip the other night where the first two games were Houston and Minnesota.

• 57:18Bill Simmons?

  And they just played really well and it was, it was one of those road trips where it's like, all right, we still got it. And then they immediately fell apart after and uh, lost some games. They're losing games at home. They're not shooting nearly as well. Like last year, they were, um, they were 39% on threes and 49% just field goal in general. So very close to where Cleveland is this year. This year they're 46 and 36. So it's not dramatic, but it's a little dramatic. It's three points a game. They don't rebound as well as they did last year. They were second in rebounding last year, they're ninth this year. Tatum has a way bigger rebounding burden than he used to. And then uh, and White, White has just really fallen off the last 20 games and I think he's hurt.

• 58:00Bill Simmons?

  And I think he's been hurt for a month plus and I don't, I, I just think he's playing hurt because he was incredible the first five weeks and he hasn't been. Drew's older, Drew is a little more hit or miss than maybe he was last year. I'm still not worried.

• 58:16Bill Simmons?

  But what worries me is this. Last year was a cakewalk to the finals. It wasn't their fault, it was just the way it played out. If they fall to a three seed, potentially that's Milwaukee or Orlando in round one. Milwaukee is Giannis, Orlando potentially defensively could be a real issue for them, especially if you watch the stagnant Celtics offense lately. Knicks round two, not having home court. Cleveland round three, no home court. It, it's like night and day compared to last year. So there's stuff, you know, KP's just coming back in a real way. Tatum's been stupendous, fifth in scoring, 18th in rebounding, plays his ass off every night. Plays defense.

• 58:58Bill Simmons?

  He, he's just a top five guy in the league by any calculation. Jalen's shooting numbers are down. There's, so it's all little stuff. And I'm willing to say it's more in the camp of we won last year. We're kind of hibernating until the playoffs. I don't love it though with the with the younger team and I don't love the white stuff at all. I want to really know what's going on with him. The schedule is rough. I they really need that two seed. And if I'm the Knicks, um, if I'm the Knicks, I'm playing Jalen Brunson and Hart 48 minutes a game. Trying to get that two seed. I think that's what they should do. Wink wink. Cleveland, number two, 34 and five. First offense 10. They're basically the 2024 Celtics. They've basically recreated what that Celtics team was.

• 59:41Bill Simmons?

  They're 50% on field goals, 40% from threes. They can play defense. The Celtics had those two forwards that were a huge mismatch for everyone, Brown and Jalen. The Cavs more have that same thing with the guards with Mitchell and Garland. What's crazy is they really, really, really played the minute stuff well. Mitchell's 31 a game. Mobley's 30 and a half. Garland's 30.3 and Allen's 29. And what's their record? 34 and 5. Those guys are sitting for one third of every game. They're killing teams. And it's very similar to Boston last year. And I said this a couple of weeks ago, I'll say it again. I take them really seriously. I do not think this is a regular season team. I think they're really good. And I think Mitchell is ready for a bigger moment.

• 1:00:25Bill Simmons?

  And Mitchell might, if you're doing a draft of all the guys this year, when we get to the playoffs, who might have started here and went up to here, like Jalen Brown last year. Um, Mitchell's the number one candidate and I would have Wemby number two. Just while we're here, things you're not allowed to say on pregame shows about Cleveland or OKC anymore. People got to start talking about SGA. We're talking. People got to start realizing how good Donovan Mitchell is. We know. People got to start talking about Jalen Williams. We are. People got to start talking about Evan Mobley. We are.

• 1:01:04Bill Simmons?

  People gotta give more props to the job Sam Presti has done. We have.

• 1:01:09Bill Simmons?

  People gotta take OKC more seriously. We are. They're the favorites on FanDuel. Which takes me to OKC, the favorite, 33 and 6. First in defense by a lot. This is one of the great defenses. Regular season wise, anyone is put together. They force turnovers at an absurd rate. Everybody seems to, the only real weakness they have is opponents can rebound on them a little bit. They've shown the ability to come back in games from double digits. They did against Minnesota and the Clippers and the Knicks and the Celtics, which I think is significant. Chet, I don't know when he comes back, but they're doing all this without Chet. And when Chet comes back, this becomes a nightmare team.

• 1:01:51Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they make a trade. My guess is they don't. If they made a trade, they'd probably try to improve the Wiggins spot or the Isaiah Joe spot. And I just don't think Presti rolls that way. If you go back and you look at the KD Russ Harden era, Harden was really the only trade he made during a five, six year straight. He did the Jeff Green Perkins. That was pretty early before they made the finals. And then he did the Harden trade, which was a financial trade. But for the most part, he's a continuity guy. And I think they roll with what they have. Their playoffs could look like round one, maybe it's San Antonio, maybe it's the Lakers, maybe it's the Kings or the Warriors. Round two, Denver, Dallas. Round three, Memphis or Houston.

• 1:02:34Bill Simmons?

  And I don't see anybody beating these dudes. And the biggest reason is SGA, who is out alpha'd the following guys head to head just this season. 45 against Harden, 45 against Halliburton, 40 against Ant, 39 against Luka, 36 against LeBron, 35 against Curry, against Boston and Tatum. He did 33, 11 and 6. Played the Knicks twice, 39 and 33. Best player in the league this season. He's got to be the MVP because he's meant the most to the best team in the league. Now, you could say, well, why didn't we do this with Tatum last year? He's just been more impactful day to day than Tatum is. And I can't believe this is the guy I watched as a kid on the Clippers as a rookie. I never in a million years would have thought that this would become

• 1:03:18Bill Simmons?

  one of the best, most creative scoring guards I've ever seen. He's, him and Brunson, watching those guys just over and over again, get the shots they want and create the shots they want against these defenses that are designed to stop them is pretty nuts. Is it going to work in a series? It really depends on Jalen Williams. That's going to be it. It's because at some point during a seven game series, you're going to try to take out SGA and you're going to send second guys at him and you're going to make other team and you're going to make the three point shooting beat you. And you're going to put the hand, the ball in the hands of Jalen Williams. And you say, you know what, dude? Go for it. If you beat us, so be it.

• 1:04:00Bill Simmons?

  And from what we've seen of him in the playoffs last year and even in the NBA Cup this year, I'm not, I'm not positive he can do it, but that's the play against them. Once we get to the playoffs, they're the best team in the league. I think they have a legitimate chance at 70 games because of their depth, 70 wins because of their depth. So could they get to 70, 12, 71, 11? It's possible because night to night, game to game with how good their defense is and their scoring and their three point shooting, I think they can get there. Anyway, that is our half season power poll. Coming back, we're going to talk to Joel Anderson from The Ringer. And then eventually Joel Anderson and Van Lathan about college football. See you in a second.

• 1:04:42Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves. And the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC.

• 1:05:22Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. All right, Joel Anderson is here. We have a whole long history. This is, how many, how many times did we almost work together before we actually decided to work together?

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  So I definitely came down to the old studio in like 2016. And you get, you guys showed me around. I did the whole thing. We went to lunch, didn't we? We, didn't we go to lunch that time too?

• 1:06:10Bill Simmons?

  I thought there was a 2014 too. Wasn't there a Grantland era? We, we definitely talked then. We talked in 16, we talked in 20. And it just, for whatever reason, never worked out. Now all of a sudden, you're with The Ringer and we couldn't be happier.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Can I say, can I say something about that too? So, yeah, so you know, like, I was in between jobs a few months ago. And I was about to accept another offer, right? And I, I reached out to Connor Nevins, people at The Ringer know Connor. Cause Connor was my editor at ESPN. And I was like, hey, man, um, you know, I got this offer and it's exciting, but I just want to make sure that Bill, like, you know, like, you guys sure that this isn't going to work out? And Connor was like, yeah, man, you should probably just go ahead. It's fine. Like, you know, Bill's busy or whatever. And so then I texted you right after that. I don't know if, I don't know if Connor's right about this. And you were like, what? Huh? Connor? I thought, you know, and then, and then everything started rolling and here we are today.

• 1:07:08Bill Simmons?

  It's so funny. Yeah, cause we had talked, as usual, I probably forgot to follow up two weeks later. And then, so anyway, it finally worked out. But we always felt like, back to the Grantland days, you know, sports culture, real life stuff. Like, we always liked the people who dabbled into all of these different circles. You're like the epitome of that. You care about all these different crazy, all the stuff you've done in the past. What, what was the? The best narrative podcasts, what was the one you were proudest of of all the stuff you did?

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely Slow Burn Six to L.A. Rides. Just because like I was fascinated by L.A. as a city. And it emerged from my reporting on season three on Biggie and Tupac. And I was just like, oh, if I ever got a chance to tell that story, which is part of the reason 2020 got held up, right?

• 1:07:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  That got put in my face and I said, well, I have to do this. Like this is like a passion project.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  And, you know, like humanizing Rodney King, just talking about the divisions in the city, like how it was more complicated than people thought. I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't wait to do that. So that was probably the thing that I'm most proud of. I did, you know, I did a season on Clarence Thomas a couple of years later, which was more critically acclaimed. But my favorite is season six of Slow Burn, the L.A. Rides.

• 1:08:28Bill Simmons?

  What was the most surprising thing you learned about Tupac and Biggie when you worked on that one?

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Um, I think the degree of intimacy between them, that like they, like, and it makes sense in retrospect how things got out of control. Right? Because that kind of hatred, like that kind of anger only comes about when you know somebody and they're like your friend. Right? And they were really friends, like Tupac had a lot to do with Biggie becoming a celebrity and like, you know, getting accepted out on the West Coast. And, you know, he, Tupac wanted to sign Biggie to his record label.

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Like, and Biggie was like, and, but then Tupac was like, ah, I don't know, this Diddy guy or Puffy, he, he knows what he's doing. You probably should stick with him.

• 1:09:11Bill Simmons?

  Ooh.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  We could collaborate, yeah, I mean.

• 1:09:14Bill Simmons?

  Right, yikes.

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  Right, right. I mean, in some ways it worked and in some ways, you know, it, it probably is best we didn't get to see how that was going to turn out in the end. But yeah, man, so that, that part of it was the thing. I knew that they had been cool, but I didn't know how cool. And that was sort of a revelation and it explained a lot about what happened after, once I learned that, I think.

• 1:09:33Bill Simmons?

  How many years before somebody does the Drake Kendrick version of that podcast?

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  Man.

• 1:09:38Bill Simmons?

  Do we need time to pass? Like, what's the right amount of time to actually like let everything settle and then dive into it?

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Right, because in so much with Drake is unsettled. Like, we don't know where he's actually going to, he hasn't released any, he hasn't really released any music. He hasn't really presented himself in front of the public again. Actually, I'm sort of fascinated by like what Kendrick is going to do at the Super Bowl is like the L.A. guy. Right? Like, like he probably had one show in mind. And now, after all this, you know, the, the, the events of the past week, I, I wonder if he's gonna have to broaden it, a sort of shift focus. But yeah, because of all that, because we haven't had, their careers haven't continued. Like, that's, doesn't have to be at least 10 years. Don't you think we gotta give it 10? When Drake's almost 50?

• 1:10:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you, I, I don't know what the right level of distance is, and especially in the documentary era. It really feels like that shortened, you know, like The Last Dance to me, what was that, 22 years?

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Bill Simmons?

  From the last season, that was kind of the perfect amount of nostalgia time.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  It really was. It really was.

• 1:10:39Bill Simmons?

  Cause you want, you want people, you want them to have enough distance that they can really say shit after the fact, right? In the interviews and The Last Dance is a good example. I've certainly had all that, but also there's a whole new generation moving up that wants to learn more about it. So, yeah, I, I just feel like that window is shortened now. Now it's like 10, 12 years and not 20.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, yeah, the thing is, and if you wait for too long, somebody else is gonna do it and they may screw it up. And like, and then it's like, well, you really don't wanna go over that ground again, right? Like, it's already out there, but then it's like, maybe not the ideal project at the end of the day. So, yeah. Uh, wait, let me ask you about the Last Dance thing then.

• 1:11:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Like, don't you think that like, they kind of, I felt like because of all the fallout as a result of that, like, like, I don't know what the hell is going on with Scottie Pippen. Like, anytime I see Scottie Pippen in a video or a reel now, like, I feel sorry for him. Um, and I don't know how much of this emanates from what came out of The Last Dance or whatever, you know, he's gotten divorced. But I feel like they almost have to revisit and re-interview some of these people because I feel like there was a lot of fallout from The Last Dance. And it's like, I feel like that story like, kind of got sparked back up and I need some sort of closure on a lot of these things.

• 1:11:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think Isaiah probably has more of a case for feeling like he was completely betrayed by it. Yeah, he just comes off like the villain.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:01Bill Simmons?

  Pippen's more complicated because they tell the whole story about, you know, 94, when MJ's gone, he doesn't wanna come back in the game. That was a big part of his legacy. Like, when, when I wrote about him in my book a million years ago. A lot of what I wrote in the Pippen part was about it's unfair that that moment framed his career when he was like the most selfless teammate, awesome guy to play with, one of the best 30 players ever. But I think if you, if you really watch The Last Dance again, the last episode, it circles back and talks about how much pain he was in in the 98 finals. But I, part of me wonders, did Pippi even, Pippen even finish it? Cause by the end of it, it's like, it's like heroic, watching him go through this stuff. But I mean, big

• 1:12:45Bill Simmons?

  picture, what changed is I think people are, sports people are so much more hesitant down to be in docs unless it's about them, unless they're the stars. You don't want to be the bad guy in a sports doc. I think the Isaiah thing, yeah, I, we dealt with it with the Celtics when we, we did this nine part Celtics doc that's coming out in 2025. And 15 years ago, we would have gotten everybody. This time around, it's, it's so much harder to get people.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:13:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:13:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  You, you can't tell me who's been a, a source of frustration here then, can't you?

• 1:13:17Bill Simmons?

  Sadly, no. But yeah, it, it's just, I think the way it is going forward because in the late 2000s, especially, nobody really knew what documentaries were. They weren't like, they weren't made like they are now, where it's like they're leading Netflix and they're leading HBO and whoever. So I think the stakes feel higher and people either feel like if it's not about them or if they're not getting paid, they're, they just don't want to be in it.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Let me, that was the big problem with the Biggie and Tupac. I, I, I'll just admit this on, on your show here. I did not like season three for Slow Burn, like the Biggie and Tupac, cause so much of it was people not wanting to talk. Cause first of all, people have talked about Biggie and Tupac forever.

• 1:14:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Some people think they deserve their own documentary. And then, yeah, then other people are like, why would I talk about this if I'm not getting paid? And I feel like people have gotten sort of attuned to the idea that like, all right, well, I've got this information if you want it. I need something out of this for myself, right? And actually though, now that you mention it, I would watch the Scottie Pippen documentary, you know?

• 1:14:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, he, so his whole background, which they went into a little in The Last Dance, but you know, it's, he was about as broke as it gets growing up as a kid. Like his, I think his dad was, basically couldn't work, was handicapped.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:14:35Bill Simmons?

  Um, so that kind of led to all the financial decisions he made. We're just trying to grab money, grab these extra long contracts where you're not getting paid as much. Never being able to bet on yourself because you needed money so bad. And it was like this eight-year spin cycle for him. Just bad contract after bad contract. And unfortunately with sports, like you make a couple of bad decisions, you can't get out of it. Now, now we have the NBA where we have like Jimmy Butler or Bradley Beal stuck in situations they don't like, but they're making 50 million a year. So it's like, I don't really feel that bad for you.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't feel, yeah, I don't, you know, and also, I mean, you know, Jimmy, you could show up. You could play, you know what I mean?

• 1:15:11Bill Simmons?

  You're right.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  The thing, I call him Jimmy succeed. I'm like, well, you know, I can understand, I can, I can understand the Heat's problem here. They're like, well, you want to just kind of coast through the regular season. Like, why don't you take the responsibility of leading us to home court advantage in the playoffs once? Like, that would be cool. Wouldn't that be nice? Also, that would, you know, do the Airsins, whatever, a solid. I'm sure I would earn them a lot of money too, for having playoff games in the first round.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  It's such a mid 2020s thing where it's like, here on the one hand, I see the case for Jimmy. Like, brought the team to the finals in 20 and 23, was expecting them to make some sort of upgrade. It's not Miami's fault, I don't think necessarily, that Portland didn't want what they were offering for Dame Lillard, but they didn't get anybody else. So he's doing the, I'm not getting enough help thing. I kind of see it. I also see the Miami side of like, we're paying you 50 million a year. You're the best guy on the team. We're paying you to be there, you know, for nine months a year. We don't want to have to wonder when you're playing or not. And why are you unhappy? So it's, it just feels like a bad marriage. Like, it's the classic bad sports marriage.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Don't you think he would have been pissed if he had got, if they had gotten Dame too? Like now that we've seen Dame and I'll, I'll, I'll go back to Dame. It was the, the Tokyo games and I remember thinking, man, he looks not good out there. But I just, I didn't trust, I, I, I liked it when they had Drew Holiday out there instead of him. And I was like, oh, man, these, I didn't know if he had just turned the corner in his career or what. But I was like, I don't, and so when he went to Milwaukee, I remember thinking, I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's going to be the answer, but okay, we'll see. And so if he went to Miami without Giannis, I mean, I don't, I think they would have a lot more reasons to be pissed down there.

• 1:17:00Bill Simmons?

  I remember making those points when he was being, when he was being shopped to the different teams. And then everybody was like, you're just Celtics fan. You don't want Miami to get Dame. It's like, look, there's, there's some evidence that he's an awful defensive player. He's also a little guy hitting his early mid 30s, which we have a lot of evidence with that, that that gets a little dangerous. I actually think he's been a little better in Milwaukee this year than I was expecting, but the, the Jimmy thing is in such a strange spot now because he also has this player option next year. So if you trade for him, you're also paying him next year. So it's a two-year commitment. It's his only leverage over Miami because if they don't trade him, then he could just opt in and now they're paying him. So now he's screwed up one year instead of two for them.

• 1:17:45Bill Simmons?

  But that, if you're Miami, you don't want to take a bad contract back.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:49Bill Simmons?

  So Phil is like, all right, fine. Take Paul George. You can have him this year and the next three. Miami's gonna be like, no way. We're not taking Paul George.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  I, I, the thing is, is like, they just have to kind of get over the idea, like they're not going to win a championship now, right? I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I get it. They have to sort of take their medicine, I guess. Like they don't, they have to be bad, but that is not a Pat Riley thing. Like he's not going to allow them to be bad.

• 1:18:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause they have some good assets and they're a little bit better than being in the middle, but they're not, they're not a top six playoff team.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:22Bill Simmons?

  Hero's playing the best he's ever played. And if Jimmy comes back the way that he could actually play, they're pretty interesting. They're not going to make the finals again. But I, I don't, I don't, it's an unsolvable one because what you don't want to do is compound a mistake by taking somebody else's mistake. That's why Bradley Beal's never happened in a million years, but if Phoenix plays worse and worse. Eh, maybe now Durant becomes a possibility, you know? And, and at least you're taking advantage of somebody else's misfortune to get out of yours.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Let me tell you something, I mean, as a Rockets fan, you know, I grew up in Houston.

• 1:18:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Please, please don't, please don't trade for KD. Like, I just don't. I, I like our young core, like, we have a lot of assets. Please, I just want to rock with Amin, Jalen.

• 1:19:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Sengwin. Like, I just want to see that with Ime and let's, let's just go with that. Like, let's not do the KD thing, because as great as he is, I just kind of feel like the days of him being able to elevate a team in quite that way are kind of over. So let's just, I like what we're doing. It's the only thing that makes me feel good about missing out on Wimby in the draft. So, like, let's just, please, if Houston, if you can hear me, let's keep this roster. Let's just rock with it for a little bit longer and see what we can go with it, please.

• 1:19:35Bill Simmons?

  How close were you to Wimby? I forget. How many picks?

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  I mean, two, but I think that, like, I think they had, what, they had the second best odds to get Wimby or something like that?

• 1:19:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  First and second. And they ended up picking, they ended up picking third, which is, you know, fine. Um, I'm not upset with the pick, but obviously it's not, it's not Wimby.

• 1:19:55Bill Simmons?

  So, so to recap, you're not totally fired up you didn't get a generational super duper star?

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that, like, what the Rockets are doing is like the only thing that makes me feel good. I'm like, oh, this is the kind of team, they're really good, they're young, they can grow together. Also, I feel like they're strong in a way that sort of could cause problems for Wimby, like this physical, deep team.

• 1:20:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  I could see that causing Wimby problems. So I'm like, okay, like, if we can keep this together, then I'm fine with it. But if not, then like, I'm just gonna, yeah, the labor missing out. We got Yao, we got Ralph Sampson, we got Dream.

• 1:20:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  I just kind of expected the Wimby thing to be us. That's supposed to be the Houston thing. And we missed out on it, yeah.

• 1:20:37Bill Simmons?

  I forgot to, I forgot about your Rockets connection. I think they're the most fascinating team to be a fake jam for, when you just look at their assets. What, because they're, they're 26 and 12, you know? Or at least when we're taping this on a Wednesday, every time I feel like they're gonna maybe tail off a little bit, like Jabari Smith got hurt, and you think, all right, here we go. Because this team is not a 26 and 12 team. They, last five minutes of a game, they can barely get a decent shot off. And it's gonna dip and then they they just keep winning and winning and they're really mentally tough. They play good D. They have good coach. And I don't know what I would do. I don't know what the tweak is.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Well, let me ask you, because you're the, I mean, you're the NBA expert here. Like, do you think, though, this is one of those examples of a team that is already sort of capped out on its, but like, they're, they play really, they're young. You may can get them to play really hard in the regular season, but when it comes to the postseason, there may not be another gear for them.

• 1:21:32Bill Simmons?

  There's not.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  At least right now.

• 1:21:33Bill Simmons?

  No, there's not. So the question you have to ask when you're in a situation like them is, like, OKC two years ago. They were like basically a 500 team. They played really well together. They had a certain ceiling to what they were doing. And he was very hesitant of trading anything for it. Then last year, same thing, right? They they ended up, they really could have beaten Dallas. They could have made the finals, but they were still really hesitant about making a move. And then this year was when they made the move. And I think if I was Houston's conciliary, unless I could get Darren Fox for Van Vliet and some picks, like, if that was really sitting there, you have to do that. Like, if you could, if you can basically just change your point

• 1:22:15Bill Simmons?

  guard position, because Van Vliet, I admire the guy, he plays hard, he's an overachiever, but he's just, when he has the ball with three minutes left in a tie game, I don't have any confidence he's scoring.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Right. Like, nobody is scared of him. You don't mind him having the ball, right?

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:30Bill Simmons?

  So if they could get like, like a Fox-type level guy, like a Booker somehow became available. That's the only thing I would think about. I want another year with Jalen Green, because I still don't know what he is.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:22:44Bill Simmons?

  Same thing with Jabari, who I think I like a little more than most. And then I think their number one asset is Thompson. Like, if I'm just like, if I'm ranking their trade assets, I think he might be number one for me.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  I was so mad when they picked him, by the way, Bill. I was like, man, what the This overtime elite shit, man.

• 1:23:01Bill Simmons?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  I want this dog. Don't know. This did not feel good, but yeah, I love that dude so much, man. He's such a, he's such a dog. And he's like, I mean, how many, I mean, it's very rare that he's on the floor and he's not the best athlete on the floor, which is crazy to say in the NBA, but that, that is legit.

• 1:23:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  At least I think, yeah.

• 1:23:19Bill Simmons?

  I know a couple of people that have seen it, seen the Rockets in person this year separately in different cities. And all of them texted me after and were like, oh my God. Like this guy athletically and it was same, same feeling I got too, where it's like, just certain guys move differently.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:23:37Bill Simmons?

  You know, where that, and this is a league of these awesome athletes. These are some of the best athletes we've produced as a country. And yet some guys still stand out. And he was one of the guys that you're watching going, man, it just feels like he's a split second faster, more athletic, he can bend in any way, more explosive, like he's just, I don't know what his ceiling is, but for, from what I've seen so far, there's no reason to me that, like there's that, like a Pippen would be the ceiling for me. And I don't think that's a crazy thing to say.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  No, not at all. I mean, he's, I mean, how old is he again? He's like 20, is he?

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like 21, 20 or 21, something like that.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, man. I mean, yeah, there's just, there's so much growth left for his game. Um, and I don't know, like, I don't know if you want to clear it out so that he can become like the alpha dog on your team.

• 1:24:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, we don't know offensively. We don't know, is the shot ever going to be there? Scotty always, you know, he went, he was basically going to Michael Jordan basketball camp every day. So he, the IQ stuff from MJ kind of eventually morphed. But he was always such a good playmaker and like passer and, you know, he had a little weird post up game. And I don't know if that stuff's in there, but the defensive athleticism stuff, like if you're doing grades, he's A plus.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  A plus.

• 1:24:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, I, I want to hold on to that guy forever. And I just, you know, I love, I love the, like again, I, you know, maybe I could probably live without Dillon Brooks, but I understand like his role on a team like that. And

• 1:25:07Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  It helps to create a culture, which was totally different than it existed a couple of years before, but like.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  Well, one fun thing that, one fun thing that's happening with Houston, Memphis, Oklahoma City.

• 1:25:19Bill Simmons?

  And then I'm gonna say half of Minnesota. But you have some real alpha-y defensive teams, athletes. They're all like kind of around the same age range for the most part. And when you watch League Pass, you'd be like, oh, Houston's playing Memphis. This game's gonna be fucking awesome. You know, oh, my God, Houston's OKC tonight. Oh, my God, I can't wait. So there's, there's this little subset now of the league that's like basically the sons of LeBron. All of them were probably, they don't even remember the NBA when LeBron wasn't in it. And, and they're, it's something. You know what I mean?

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I was looking, I mean, like dude, the Southwest standings in the NBA, like San Antonio was fourth, man. They're fourth, 19 and 19. And the fifth place team is the Pelicans. And I felt like if Zion is right, they can beat any of those teams any night too, right? They're nine and 32, but like if Zion is right, which is.

• 1:26:12Bill Simmons?

  I watched it last night. They beat somebody and Zion was, I don't know if they're auditioning him. I'm on the record. I, it's the most fun, the most fun trade that we can come up with in basketball right now is Zion to the Spurs.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  Oh, man, come on, dog.

• 1:26:28Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm telling you.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  No, what?

• 1:26:31Bill Simmons?

  Put Zion, Zion with Wemby, Zion, trade their stuff, couple picks.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  I don't want that.

• 1:26:37Bill Simmons?

  Put him in a different organization.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 1:26:39Bill Simmons?

  Get him the ball, you're out. Why don't you like that?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I could, I don't, cause I don't, I don't like the Spurs. I don't want to hear their mouth.

• 1:26:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh, cause of rocketing.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want that.

• 1:26:49Bill Simmons?

  So you're being selfish.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's terrifying. Yeah, I don't want that to happen. I also felt like, like Zion looking up at Wemby and being like, man, this, look how this guy, how serious he takes this career. Like, I mean, they were talking about his dedication to the game when he was 17 years old over in, you know.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  Learning two languages, learning how to like become like a face of a league, basically, you know? Yeah, he's, he's playing it all out. I, I wouldn't compare, this isn't an exact comparison. Cause Randy Moss was better than Zion and Randy Moss did more stuff than Zion and he was healthier than Zion. But there was a moment when, when Randy Moss was on the Raiders that year and they were a dumpster fire. And, you know, everything was wrong. He wasn't playing that hard. And his asset as a trade asset slipped to the point the Patriots stole him for like a fourth rounder.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  It was a fourth round pick.

• 1:27:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right.

• 1:27:40Bill Simmons?

  But they got him and then he was immediately rejuvenated. I do wonder like if that happens, whoever gets Zion, if they could just get him in the right thing, would that be like the best trade you could make?

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  I think that is like 90, like I'm like 90% certain that's gonna happen. Cause I mean, it just, he did not want to go to New Orleans in the first place. It just felt like it was never going to work out. And in, in New Orleans as a franchise, I feel like if you're CJ McCollum, you're a professional. Like I'm just gonna show up. It doesn't matter where I got a ball, like I'm gonna do it or whatever. But like the expectations of Zion was so much more than that. And clearly he thrived in a place where he was the star of the show and there was a lot of attention on him. I mean, it just felt like New Orleans is not where it needs to be. And also that the training staff, I don't know. Anyway, so.

• 1:28:25Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean, I don't know? It's the worst organization in the league. That's a huge part of this.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's also, I feel like it's pretty much guaranteed that if he goes someplace that he feels motivated to play and he's got a bunch of guys or dogs around him. I feel like it's a certainty that he's going to take off no matter where he goes.

• 1:28:41Bill Simmons?

  And he's at least showing flashes too, you know? Like even in the playing game before he got hurt, like he's, he was taking it to LeBron in a way that was unusual.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  He likes being that guy, man. And so it's clearly in there. I think that it's, unless, unless he gets hurt, it's gonna come out and it's gonna come out somewhere else. It's just, it's just some places, it's just not gonna happen, dude. And like, I feel like we've seen enough of New Orleans now. It's like, it's just not gonna happen down here. So it's time to go somewhere else. Yeah.

• 1:29:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, I know New Orleans is bad for me when I'm there for four days. So I can't imagine when you're him with some of the vices that he has.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  I don't, don't you, well, I don't know. I feel like, I feel like New Orleans is sad though, too. Like I feel like I could be down there for three or four days and then I gotta kind of keep it moving.

• 1:29:22Bill Simmons?

  It's like Vegas. Yeah. Vegas is fun for three days. This is like, it's, this is too much. The thing with him, this is like, these are the NBA players I grew up with, where these guys, they have so much talent, they're so awesome, but they never find the right spot, right situation, whatever. And then it just never happens. Oh, Van Lathan's here. He's gonna join us. We'll take a, we'll take a quick break, come back and talk some college football with Van.

• 1:29:51Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tipoff. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer

• 1:30:33Bill Simmons?

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• 1:31:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, Van Lathan is here. He's joining us. We're gonna talk college football.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:31:04Bill Simmons?

  It's the first time you guys have been on a podcast together?

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, ever. A lot of respect for this guy, yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Likewise, man, likewise.

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  College football. I'm gonna let you guys carry this. I'm just gonna be the point guard, set you up. I'm gonna be like Reed Shepard in the G League, just, just running fast breaks and raining threes. Before, we have Joel's five favorite things for college football. Before we do that, Notre Dame, Ohio State. Every person I know who gambles on college football is like, just throw Ohio State in a parlay, it's a wrap. They're too big, they're bigger, they're better, like this is, this is done. They were the eight seed this year.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:39Bill Simmons?

  Is this done? Does Notre Dame, is there, nobody believes in this case?

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Um, I think Notre Dame probably has a lot of bulletin board material. People are on Ohio State like crazy. They have a ridiculously talented roster and they're peaking at the right time, right? However, I, despite all of the animus between LSU fans and Notre Dame fans online, I am not ready to say that Freeman and his staff up there in South Bend are not going to find a way to make this game competitive and not have a chance to win this game in the fourth quarter. I think that they will.

• 1:32:11Bill Simmons?

  What do you think, Joel?

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  I definitely think it's going to be closer than people think, but at the end of the day, your limitations are your limitations. Notre Dame can't pass, right? Like, they can't pass the ball, and I feel like that's going to be a real problem in a game where, I mean, the thing about Ohio State, which was, we'll get into it in the list later, but somebody's supposed to slip free, right? Like, Trevion, you know, Quinshon, Jeremiah, Ameka, Carnell, somebody is going to bust loose, and like, Notre Dame is going to have to do something other than put together a 13-play, 72-yard drive to keep up. And I just think eventually, after a while, that takes a toll and they'll kind of fall behind. But I do, I agree with Van that it's going to be much closer and they're going

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  to be a tougher out for Ohio State than people think.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  So I think what happened with me with Notre Dame was, the last game, I think there were a lot of questions answered. Now, we could talk about Penn State and some of the limitations that Penn State has, particularly the explosiveness that they lack in their downfield passing game. But a lot of things that people, a lot of questions, should I say, that people were asking about Notre Dame in the game, which was, if they ever got behind, right, could they play from behind? Did the offense have enough wrinkles, that they have dynamic enough talent on that side of the ball to get them back into a game where they couldn't play complimentary football, defense?

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  Like a Pittsburgh Steelers situation?

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:33:37Bill Simmons?

  We're down 14, the game is now over.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  It's over, it's it, yeah.

• 1:33:40Speaker 02

  But they got down 10.

• 1:33:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:42Speaker 02

  They got down 10, and Riley Leonard was even knocked out of the game, which honestly, I think kind of worked in Notre Dame's favor a little bit because they weren't really preparing for the backup quarterback to come in there and complete a couple of passes. And they played from behind, and they made enough plays in the passing game in that game against a quality, not quite as good as Ohio State defense, maybe not, but it's not too, it's pretty comparable, a quality Penn State defense. They made enough plays in the passing game to go win the game. They are facing an uphill battle, but for some reason, I think the game will be competitive.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, if I don't, I don't think, I can't envision a scenario in which Notre Dame can get to 24. And that's why I don't think they can win. And I feel like Ohio State can kinda F up and can, can we, we can curse here, right? I can say fuck.

• 1:34:29Bill Simmons?

  Fuck yeah.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  I can say fuck. I was like, shit, well, I know y'all curse, but I just, I'm not, I'm new here, right? All right, well, I think, I think, I think Ohio State can fuck around and get 24. Like, I mean, you know, they can just luck up into a couple, like you hit Jeremiah deep, you know, a drive or whatever. And I don't, I, Notre Dame, again, better than people that think they're gonna be, but I don't think they can get to 24.

• 1:34:50Bill Simmons?

  All right, two follow up questions off this. One, Ohio State was the eighth, the ranked eighth heading into the playoffs. So a year ago, they're not in the playoffs.

• 1:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:01Bill Simmons?

  So now they're gonna, they're heavily favored to win the title. So what does that mean, big picture? Were we just doing this wrong the last 20 years? Do we have to go back and go through all the times when maybe the wrong team won?

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:35:13Bill Simmons?

  What does that mean?

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think that Ohio State necessarily deserves to be the national champion. Like by, like by the standards of the champions that have come before them, they are a failure. They didn't beat their biggest rival. They didn't win their conference championship. So like it, that they win, like it redeems like the fuckups they had earlier in the season. But I don't think it means that they deserve to have been in the playoffs. Like it's just a, a circumstance of history that they're in the playoffs. But I don't, you know, like they're the best team, but they didn't live up to that during the year. And if they didn't make the playoffs, I don't think anybody would have lost any sleep over it.

• 1:35:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, counter, they lost two games by four points.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, have, have, well, we'll talk about it, but like, I mean,

• 1:35:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, all right.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  You watched, had you watched Michigan play this year?

• 1:35:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I watched that game and it was, the announcers were shocked as it was happening.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah.

• 1:36:02Bill Simmons?

  What's your take?

• 1:36:02Speaker 02

  So I think the dynamic, it depends on which version of college football that you believe in. So if you believe the traditional college football, uh, sort of way of doing things that I was brought up on, and I'm sure Joel's brought up on too, which was the most deserving team, won the national championship after a full body of work, uh, was, was examined.

• 1:36:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  Then Ohio State's not there. But what I think they were trying to move to by expanding the playoff was to see.

• 1:36:32Speaker 02

  If they could get to a situation where the best team wins the, the, uh, the national championship, and that's on the field, and that means that if you slip up a couple of Saturdays, right?

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter because if you have the best roster and you're playing the best at the right time, then you get a chance to prove it on the field.

• 1:36:50Bill Simmons?

  Right. So like that Michigan loss in the old system is catastrophic for them.

• 1:36:55Speaker 02

  Oh, well, so.

• 1:36:55Bill Simmons?

  It's like one of the worst losses in the history of Ohio State. Now it's not.

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  It's the worst loss that I can remember in that rivalry, but let's not even talk about Ohio State. Let's talk about Notre Dame that lost at home to Northern Illinois.

• 1:37:08Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  Right? So that is a disqualifying loss in most iterations of the old way of doing college football. It is not in this particular day.

• 1:37:19Bill Simmons?

  So is that better or worse?

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess it kind of depends on what you think. I wrote about this for the Ringer.com.

• 1:37:25Bill Simmons?

  I know you did.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  And so I, I, what I would say is that if college football fans can sort of disabuse themselves, it's like, as Vance said, the most deserving notion. And it's like, well, NFL fans, when, when Brady and the Bucks won the Super Bowl, I mean, I don't know if anybody thought they were clearly the most deserving team or anything like that, but they won. They were the champion. And so like NFL fans accept that.

• 1:37:47Bill Simmons?

  And it's gonna be like Washington with Jaden Daniels when he wins the Super Bowl in three ways.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  Or it'll be like when a nine and 17 beat an undefeated New England Patriots.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  I didn't wanna, I was trying to be nice.

• 1:37:58Bill Simmons?

  Also like that. I blocked that out. I don't even remember that happening. Is that the Patriots? All right. Sorry, Joel. Go ahead.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  No, but, no, but I, I, I'm with you on that. So if it, if it's gonna be like that, then, and we're gonna become, college fans become NFL fans, I'd be like, all right, that happens to be the champion this year. But I kinda, I guess as an older dude, I kinda like the, every game, you know, like that loss in Michigan should count for something. Like it should be, not in this way, it just made Ohio State mad. But it used to be that, oh man, like that, the whole program crumbles, Ryan Day has to go away, Caleb Downs is back in the portal, all that kind of stuff. Um.

• 1:38:37Speaker 02

  And there's, there's a cultural question in Columbus right now too, with my Ohio State fans. And the question is, it sounds stupid to people who don't understand college football and don't understand the rivalry.

• 1:38:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  But it's a question that's very much on the minds of people up there. And the question is, would you rather beat Michigan? Or would you rather win a national championship? Now, the answer seems obvious. There's no Ohio State fan right now on the precipice of winning a national championship that's gonna say, oh, man, like blah, blah, blah, blah, like this doesn't matter as much. But then, the day after the Michigan loss, the week after the Michigan loss, like when they were talking about Ryan Day, the way that they were talking about Ryan Day, they would have, they'd be lying to you if they'd have told you right now that that wasn't a soul-crushing moment that not even a national championship could completely repair and heal.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Right. Like, I think that there's still questions, even if he wins the national championship, is this the right guy? You know, like, is this, is this the right guy?

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  It's hilarious, though.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  He's lost to Michigan four times in a row. Like, are you, Bill, are you familiar with the Bayou Classic? I brought this up on Russillo's podcast. Shout out to, shout out to Riggs. But the Bayou Classic, at Southern University, rest in peace, Dad, like, they would rather beat Grambling than win the SWAC. That's a no-brainer. Like, it's a one-game Super Bowl that means everything from some people that are traveling from up north in Louisiana down to New Orleans, us making a shorter drive, and it's all on the line right there. And that's just the way college football is. And if you ever get to a point where Ohio State fans will care even a centella less about beating Michigan, you've lost the whole sport.

• 1:40:26Bill Simmons?

  Notre Dame, can you walk me through the relationship Notre Dame has now in 2025 with America? Because I know what it meant in the 70s, 80s. To me, it felt like the biggest school on the planet forever, and then all of a sudden, it wasn't. And then it came back. And now, where are we in 2025?

• 1:40:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it's still probably, personally, it probably is the program that your grandmother is most likely to recognize, right? Like, it does have that. And it no longer has the cachet. I mean, there was a time that, you know, this large Catholic, wealthy university, own network, it had all these advantages over everybody else. Well, we all know that that's Not even true. They lost a coach to LSU. Like, we're not, you know, no disrespect, Van, you know, but LSU's not Bama. It's not Texas. It's not Ohio.

• 1:41:15Bill Simmons?

  God, this is like shots fired.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  I'm just saying.

• 1:41:19Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  I grew up, when I grew up, LSU was a seven and five ass program. No, it was seven and four.

• 1:41:24Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  Before Kevin Falk.

• 1:41:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm worried I'm gonna get hit by a bullet.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Okay, before Kevin Falk went to LSU, and then definitely before Nick Saban got there. They were like, if Texas A&M beat, or lost to LSU, I'd be like, man, what happened to Texas A&M?

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  So this is bullshit. So, like, so it is, because LSU was down in the 90s. That's for sure. LSU won the SEC a couple of times in the 80s, which was a hell of a time to win the SEC. The program was pretty good. It was a very important, we had a Heisman Trophy winner, all of that stuff.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  We're talking about Billy Cannon?

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm talking about Billy Cannon, 1958, that matters, right?

• 1:42:01Bill Simmons?

  We all talk about 58.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  We all talk, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 1:42:04Bill Simmons?

  Now, can I get to count my Celtics title from 1958?

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  Y'all count, y'all count all them titles from back.

• 1:42:11Bill Simmons?

  You don't count them.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  And, like, y'all count all of the titles from back in the segregated days in Boston, not in the NBA. But, but, but what I'm saying is, LSU, when we came into college football, was down in the 90s. And the reason why the program was down, I'm not about to do a whole LSU defense, is because a lot of the best players from Louisiana were escaping. Warwick Dunn didn't go to LSU. Cordell Stewart didn't go to LSU. Some of these people, what happened was, Nick Saban was able to reorient, and Jerry DiNardo to a degree, was able to reorient the position of LSU in Louisiana, where we could keep some of the talent back at home. And when that started, we became a perennial power.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Let me, let me throw this theory at you, because I say that Nick Saban actually integrated the SEC. Like the way that he recruited at LSU, if you look at like recruiting rankings over those years, like starting from like, like the like 98, when Saban gets there, like every year, like the SEC school, like LSU starts creeping up the recruiting rankings and then slowly but surely, and certainly when he, by the time he goes to Alabama, all the other schools start to catch up and they're like, oh yeah, I guess we need to recruit these guys. Cause it used to be there was a lot of reticence. Like even in, even in Texas, like there was some reticence that the University of Texas, they didn't really recruit the, the guys out of the urban centers like Dallas, Houston. Those guys went to Florida State, they went to, you know, Michigan or whatever. They didn't go to Texas and then like something

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  happened in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I said like, Nick Saban for me, like when I look back at what he did, I felt like he integrated the SEC in a, in a way, right? And that, and I think that's what was the inflection point for LSU. But prior to that, come on, man. You know what y'all were.

• 1:43:53Speaker 02

  No, in the 90s, we were down.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  You know what Texas Tech?

• 1:43:57Speaker 02

  In the, oh, come on.

• 1:43:58Bill Simmons?

  I didn't, I didn't realize.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  It's not true.

• 1:44:00Bill Simmons?

  I forgot about Billy Cannon's husband.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Billy Cannon's.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  You know what really happened? Shaq went to LSU. Shaq went, Shaq went to LSU and it bankrupted the whole school for like 10 years. They're still paying him.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  They hired a guy, it, it, this is, and this is a cautionary tale for any college program. They hired a guy named Curly Hallman. You, for, for most programs.

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  Never trust a Curly.

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  And, and by the way, we're talking about Bama. It's so interesting that people go, LSU was not Bama. Bama was down.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:31Speaker 02

  For 10 years too. Bama was down, super down. We were kicking Bama's ass every single year until Saban comes to Bama. The first year Saban was at Bama, Bama loses to UL Monroe. So what I'm saying is, any program out there, right? You look at when Bobby Bowden leaves Florida State, what Florida State has to go through until Jimbo Fisher gets there. You leave, you look at Texas and Matt Brown. Texas is just getting back. It doesn't matter what color your blood is in college football. If, if it's blue, if it's red, whatever it is. You are one bad coaching hire.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  One bad coaching hire. When we were coming up, Nebraska was an unquestionable blue blood, right? Tommy Frazier, Lawrence Phillips, all of these guys haven't been nationally relevant since. Colorado, you're one bad hire. One bad hire, two maybe at the most, from being in a situation you don't want to be in.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  I wasn't saying LSU was Indiana. I'm saying that y'all would not Notre Dame.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  No, we weren't Notre Dame.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Nobody ever, nobody ever.

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  Don't apologize to him, you're right.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, nobody thought of LSU as like this great, blue-blooded program. It was a good, solid program.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  It's a good, solid program, but what I'm saying is that if you are a program and you represent a culture where football is very important, like it is in Louisiana, it's like live or die in Louisiana. It is, whether it's LSU Southern, high school, whatever. Um, you're actually one coaching hire away from being able to harness the power of your state. LSU was not in the same conversation with Notre Dame, USC, or historically, and probably still isn't. But I will say, since 2000, you have three national championships. You've played for a fourth national championship.

• 1:46:10Bill Simmons?

  Nobody wants to hear your credentials.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  You won the SEC.

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  Your team's not even the championship team.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  You've had two Heisman Trophy winners.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  Are you happy with your program? Are you happy?

• 1:46:20Bill Simmons?

  It's like having Buddy Garrity here, talking about.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Am I, am I happy with LSU right now? No, I think we should be doing better, but the, to me, trajectory matters and it, and the entire context of where you are matters. And Coach O, who was a great coach, in terms of what he was able to get.

• 1:46:39Bill Simmons?

  What a character.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  A great, a great coach.

• 1:46:41Bill Simmons?

  Character.

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. In terms of, when I say he was a great coach, this is what I mean. If you put together the team that we had in 19 together, you gotta at least have the potential to be a great coach, right? And so, he wasn't a great long-term guy, because he likes to fuck boosters' wives and, and like.

• 1:47:01Bill Simmons?

  Allegedly.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Whatever. So, he wasn't a good, long-term guy, right? And he left the program in shambles. For what we needed for the time that we had him, he was good. He took what Les Miles couldn't do, undefeated season, all of that stuff. Now, LSU is getting back to the point to where people in South Louisiana are looking for real results from Brian Kelly, and we'll see in the next couple of years if he can deliver them.

• 1:47:22Bill Simmons?

  Can I throw a hottest take at you guys? Most important guy this century for the SEC, Dante Culpepper.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:47:30Bill Simmons?

  Cause if Saban picks Drew Brees over Dante Culpepper, he never goes to Alabama. And then what happens to the SCC?

• 1:47:36Speaker 02

  What are you talking about? We would, we would have been Alabama.

• 1:47:39Bill Simmons?

  Would you have?

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Bill Simmons?

  Would you have?

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  With less mouths?

• 1:47:42Bill Simmons?

  Man.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  With less mouths? For real?

• 1:47:45Speaker 02

  No. It, it.

• 1:47:46Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if that hottest take worked, but I wanted to fire it off anyway.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  That's very interesting. I like.

• 1:47:50Bill Simmons?

  Cause I don't, I still think Saban's in the NFL now. If he has Drew Brees, he would have had Drew Brees for 15 years.

• 1:47:55Speaker 02

  Oh, no. I got, actually I was confused. You're saying he went to, so if Nick Saban, what I meant to say is.

• 1:48:00Bill Simmons?

  Saban picked Culpepper over Drew Brees.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Because Drew had a certain shoulder. What I was saying is, I got a little turned around. I was saying is, if Saban never leaves LSU, we'd have been Bama. We wouldn't have been Bama with less mouths.

• 1:48:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  So you're saying if he, if he stays in Miami, he has a lot of success there and he never comes back and as, yeah.

• 1:48:19Bill Simmons?

  What happens?

• 1:48:19Speaker 02

  I mean, look, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the way things happen, right?

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll say that if, if Saban stayed at LSU, LSU would have been better than Bama. Like the, the Bama, like LSU has a lot more going for it. As a program and in terms of what it's like, potential is, as opposed to Bama, I think.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  But all I'm saying is this, whatever, like I've spent my life watching LSU football. I can tell you this. With the talent that is inside of Louisiana, when you look at the guys that we got out there, and y'all can say whatever y'all want to say, right? About LSU, about whatever, people can say whatever. Man, Jamar Chase.

• 1:48:54Bill Simmons?

  Jefferson.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Jefferson. When you look at the talent in the NFL, I'm not talking about guys that just came through.

• 1:49:00Bill Simmons?

  B2J.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  I'm talking about. Neighbors and Thomas.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  I'm talking about guys that are from our.

• 1:49:05Bill Simmons?

  Wide receiver factory.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Like Derrick Stingley. When you talk about guys that are from our state, if we can recruit our state, we'll be competitive with anyone.

• 1:49:13Bill Simmons?

  Can we switch gears? Cause we're running out of time. All right, Joel, rip it off. Your five favorite things about college football this season. Ben and I are the audience. I made you have a list. You can go five to one or one to five, your choice.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  I was gonna, I was gonna go five to one.

• 1:49:25Bill Simmons?

  Let's do it.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  I'm gonna try, I'm gonna rest it. Okay, real quick. Bill, did you follow Holy Cross football from 2021 to 2023?

• 1:49:30Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  You did.

• 1:49:32Bill Simmons?

  I was into it.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  What did you think of the quarterback play?

• 1:49:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, he went to UNLV and then left after three games.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like that was my number five thing, Matt Sluka going to UNLV because first of all, like, I think it was one of the rare things. It ended up okay for everybody, but for people that don't know, Sluka, he was the quarterback at Holy Cross, transfers to UNLV, plays the first three games, UNLV looks great. Like, I was like, man, UNLV's got a good damn football program. What happened there? Well, it turns out that he says, he decides to sit out the rest of the season and take a red shirt because the school didn't follow through on whatever promises that they allegedly made about NIL. And I thought-

• 1:50:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, the follow through is they didn't fucking pay him. Whatever the money was, I just don't think he got it.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  They promised him a hundred thousand and he only got like a thousand, right? And I don't know what's the, it's still unclear like what the difference is here and why those expectations weren't met. But it's like one of these things where you could project your feelings about the NIL era onto the player in this situation. And if you like me and you like players getting paid, I didn't mind him withholding his labor until he got what he felt was promised. And if you don't like it, it was about like these spoiled and entitled college players prioritizing money over the team. So I thought it was like a really, you know, like a fun story that didn't ultimately hurt anybody because UNLV still was badass and Sluka-

• 1:50:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, wait though, there was a third piece to it though, which is you have like thousands of these business deals being cut left and right, right? With teenage kids or kids who are 20, 21 with these different colleges, they're probably not, they're just like, yeah, yeah, we'll get you 25,000, but so there's so much room for sleaziness that I don't think we've ever seen before. We've only had this with boosters before.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  You're just seeing now the opportunity for people to get in people's ears and promise things that they can't then deliver on. And the college athlete who is now in a brand new world that's kind of like the wild, wild west with not a lot of protections or structures there to protect them or their family or protect the schools either, you're just seeing a lot of promises not being met. We'll see how, who has the power at the end of the day.

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  It's either the wild, wild west or it's like that new Netflix show where just everybody gets brutally murdered. What's that show? American something? The western?

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  I don't know what you're talking about.

• 1:51:46Bill Simmons?

  Tim Riggins is on it. It was on Netflix. It's like set in the 1800s. Everybody just kills everybody.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  Oh, was that Roots?

• 1:51:53Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:51:56Bill Simmons?

  No, it's Peter Berg's their show. It's called American something. It's about Wyoming and just it's like 1883 more violent.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  No, I didn't see that one.

• 1:52:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, Joe.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  All right. Wow. All right, I want to move to number four. So, you know, Nick Saban was actually trying to be honest earlier this year when he said the only place you play in the SCC that's not hard to play is in Vanderbilt. And then it's like not even a month later, Alabama goes to Vanderbilt and loses for the first time since 1984. Man, got their ass beat. Vanderbilt scored 40 points on them. They like it was, they didn't luck into those points. They beat their ass and it was just hilarious because first of all, you also get to see Bama fans go crazy now. Yeah, it's like they've been, they've lived an unprecedented ride for like the last 15 to 20 years. And to see their faces and to see how they responded to losing to Vandy in the first year post Saban.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  It was hilarious. So that's that, that I had to put that at number four.

• 1:52:52Bill Simmons?

  Good one. Right. I would also add for Saban, I loved when Shane Gillis made fun of him and Saban didn't know how to handle it. Was one of my favorite TV moments in a while.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:01Bill Simmons?

  Cause he, Saban had no sense of humor about it.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:06Bill Simmons?

  He was like, who the fuck is this guy? He's saying we cheated and by the way, how does he know?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  He didn't say, did he, did Shane say anything about charges or anything? He didn't say anything about a does charge, did he?

• 1:53:16Bill Simmons?

  No, he was just talking, he made a paying the players joke and Saban was just like.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Fucking with it, yeah.

• 1:53:22Bill Simmons?

  Anyway, number three.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Number three. So if you are like me, since I followed college football, the idea of Arizona State football has always been like, man, Arizona, why isn't Arizona, Arizona State any good? You know, they've got all that, they're in a fast growing area. They got a lot of sun. It's like a school with like academics ain't going to be in the problem. And you know, if you like me and you saw, you know, the Playboy edition of Pac 10, you know, Pac 10 season's like Arizona, you know what I'm saying? It's rolling.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  It's elite milk.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, you said it, not me. I can't, you know what I'm saying? I'm a family man.

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  I am too, but the truth is the truth.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  So anyway, but man, like Arizona State was dope this year, man. Like you kind of see it's like, oh, man, Arizona State's good. They might have like a future. They got a 34 year old coach. He can recruit, you know, they got a little off it. They're not going to get Cam Scatabo. Like I call that dude pocket grunk. Like, I don't know if he's going to be good in the NFL or whatever, but um, like as a college character, he was perfect for like Arizona State.

• 1:54:29Bill Simmons?

  I think as a fourth rounder, he's a must. Like once you get past the second round, you're just like throwing darts against the dartboard.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  Taking a flyer on him. I mean, what, what?

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  Could he be like Tyler Algier?

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  What, what you do know is he has an incredible skill set. He can do a lot of different things on the football field. He might not have all the measurables. I'm sure he'll run like four, six or four.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Oh, man, four, six.

• 1:54:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but he is a football player.

• 1:54:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:56Speaker 02

  And he's so competitive.

• 1:54:57Bill Simmons?

  Who's been good since he was probably what? Seven years old?

• 1:54:59Speaker 02

  He's always found, found a way.

• 1:55:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm in on that dude.

• 1:55:02Speaker 02

  The tape always matters more to me than the measurables. Your tape always matters more.

• 1:55:06Bill Simmons?

  It feels like he's going to have some moment where somebody's starting running back will get hurt next year or a year from now. And that guy's going to go in and have like 110 yards and be the big fantasy pickup.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:15Bill Simmons?

  God only knows.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  I mean, that dude beastied against Texas and like Texas has all the athletes you could think of and he was.

• 1:55:21Bill Simmons?

  He was awesome. All right, number two.

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  Number two, uh, this was the first Heisman race in about a decade where QB wasn't a serious contender. And I love that because we had, we could talk about Travis Hunter, who I don't know. I've never seen anything like that in college football. Like maybe, I mean, if you go down a level or something or you could say, oh, there's a guy that played, you know, uh, a thousand snaps in a season, but I've never seen anybody do that and excel in the way that Travis Hunter did. And like, there was a game this year against UCF. He had nine passes for 89 yards, a touchdown, a pass breakup and interception. And he was on the field for 128 of 143 snaps in that game. And I'm just like, yo, like I, I don't know what more you could like, people thought Charles

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  Woodson was amazing because he played a few snaps at receiver. Uh, no, like Travis Hunter was doing something else totally. And like the Aston Gentry kid, I just, get me on get on soapbox for a second. If you think that Aston Gentry got exposed against Penn State, you are stupid. Like I literally think that you don't know ball because the dude, like if you watch that defense and him like that guy. It took everything in that Penn State defense and they focused all their efforts on them because they, because both boys they couldn't pass and that dude still hammered out 100 yards. There was a, there was a 10 yard run early in the fourth quarter with six Penn State guys got a hand on that guy. Yeah, man. Yeah. So I love it.

• 1:56:45Bill Simmons?

  It felt like they were almost running like a goal line defense on him.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, it was tough yards, but every yard that he got, he had to take it from the defense. So he just, he proved to me what a good back he was by his performance in that game.

• 1:56:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Abdul Carter is supposedly a badass and he got hurt tackling Ashton Gentry in that game. You know what I'm saying? So anyway, and.

• 1:57:05Bill Simmons?

  So he said, so Hunter's your favorite because obviously I'm moving, I have the fourth pick in the draft with my beloved Patriots because we fucked up the last game of the season. But Carter is one of the guys, the fan base is kinda, we have a new coach. He wants to build around the Lions. We're like, look at this guy. Could be amazing pass rusher, but he's probably not going to be there at four. I feel like he's going to go before that.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Man, yeah.

• 1:57:27Bill Simmons?

  It feels like a Will Anderson situation, right? Where he'll just go second.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  I mean, if he does get drafted high, I mean, a lot of people say, but my thing is this, if you guys, if Will Anderson, Will Anderson, Will Campbell, Homer pick, Will Campbell is still on the board when you guys are drafting, you guys should take the left tackle.

• 1:57:41Bill Simmons?

  Or we, I think that's where we'd probably end up. So you would play Hunter, D back or receiver?

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  D back because it's so much harder to find guys with that skillset at that position. You can get a receiver, maybe not as talented as Travis, but you could get something, a reasonable approximation. On defense though, this is not, this is not cats like.

• 1:58:00Bill Simmons?

  Cause it seems like the, the move with him and maybe he ends up on the Pats. I don't know, but cornerback and then special packages and maybe third and, third and eight and up he comes in and he's like your third receiver. And so maybe he's like 10 offensive plays a game and then cornerback, which even that would be like, nobody's doing that now.

• 1:58:20Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, look, I, I don't know what the feasibility is of him playing too much going both ways in the NFL from a wear and tear situation. Travis has been injured before. So I don't know what the feasibility is of it. I know if I was him, I would want to play receiver. If I was him, just for the money. However.

• 1:58:40Bill Simmons?

  It is more money.

• 1:58:41Speaker 02

  They're gonna want him.

• 1:58:42Bill Simmons?

  It's like 30 million a year at least.

• 1:58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. They're probably gonna want him to play, uh, to play DB. But if I was him, I would want to find my way to.

• 1:58:51Bill Simmons?

  It's so much fun. I remember as a kid, or I wasn't a kid, I guess I was in college when Deion. He was the D back, but then every once in a while they would play him at receiver. Every time he came in, it was so fucking exciting. It was like, are they gonna throw a bubble screen? Are you just gonna throw a deep for him? It was like, you couldn't take your ass off it. All right, number one.

• 1:59:09Speaker 01

  Number one, this is kinda obvious. I mean, it just, there was just nothing that was gonna indicate that Michigan was even gonna be competitive with Ohio State.

• 1:59:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was nuts.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  Like, Ohio State was a nineteen and a half point favorite coming into that game. They had a twenty million dollar roster. Michigan didn't even have their best player that game, like cornerback Will Johnson. He was out that game. And this was like, they had it all set up. They're at home, they can exact revenge on this team and just totally exorcise all those demons. And they lost to like, the broke his dick offensive team. I mean, I saw it at that. Like, I mean, they cannot throw a forward pass on that team.

• 1:59:46Speaker 02

  It's, it's the most, it's one of the most embarrassing and shocking college football losses I've seen. Really, maybe, maybe since Michigan lost to Appalachian State.

• 1:59:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:59:59Speaker 02

  Couple of decades before, like, you know what I mean? I struggle to explain how that game happened in the way that it did.

• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

  With the stakes for Ohio State.

• 2:00:11Speaker 02

  With the stakes for Ohio State, with everything was, with everything that was on the line for Ohio State in terms of what they were playing for structurally, in terms of a college football championship, but also culturally. Like, the fact that they had been getting their asses kicked and Harbaugh was there, and this was the time for them to actually win that game thirty-one to ten. They couldn't fucking do it. And not only that, they got fucking manhandled and got their goddamn manhood taken by their arch rivals. I could not believe it.

• 2:00:39Bill Simmons?

  I love this theory that that loss was worse than the high of winning a title.

• 2:00:44Speaker 02

  But let me tell you something.

• 2:00:45Bill Simmons?

  That's a really interesting seesaw.

• 2:00:46Speaker 02

  And it deluded home, too. I mean, like, they did it on your home field, bro. I'll be honest with you, Joe. I think that loss catapulted them into a national championship run.

• 2:00:56Bill Simmons?

  It made them mad.

• 2:00:56Speaker 02

  They, they got pissed off, they got embarrassed. They just have not played anywhere nearly like the same team sits. The unbeatable behemoth that we were told Ohio State was going to be this year, they've played that way subsequently to that loss. So that says a lot about their staff and really a lot about their players and their program, to be honest with you.

• 2:01:17Bill Simmons?

  Do you guys like Ohio State fans?

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:01:20Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:01:21Bill Simmons?

  All right.

• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  I have one thing to say, and I have a theory. You know, I know concussion came out nine years ago, but I talked about this on the press box. I think Ohio State's quarterback got a concussion in the second quarter. I think Will Howard got a concussion because he missed a play for a head. They said they were looking at his head. He said he was okay. He went back in the game and he never looked the same. So that's just, I know that football, we've moved on from that, like the worrying about CTE and everything, but I kind of feel like that dude got a head injury.

• 2:01:47Bill Simmons?

  Dude, I will always, for the rest of my life, think Mahomes got a concussion in that Bengals game at the end of the first half.

• 2:01:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:54Bill Simmons?

  And he was never the same after that moment. And that was when they lost. And I still can't believe they didn't make the Super Bowl that night.

• 2:02:00Speaker 02

  You know what? You guys are, I'm getting so sick of this conversation, this bleeding heart liberal bullshit that I'm listening to. You guys are talking like it's 2018.

• 2:02:10Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  Which we, it's over.

• 2:02:11Bill Simmons?

  I forgot, it's Trump's America now.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  The unwokening is happening.

• 2:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:14Speaker 02

  Scramble their brains. Okay? Like, if I see you out there wearing one of those soft helmets.

• 2:02:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  I'm gonna start trolling you and your family. Scramble their, like scramble, scramble their brains. It's over. We don't have to care anymore. We don't have to care about nothing.

• 2:02:28Bill Simmons?

  The great unwokening?

• 2:02:29Speaker 02

  The great unwokening has happened. We don't have to care about nothing. Put Tua right back in the game right now. Like, put him right back in. I don't care. It's over. I don't have to care no more. No more marches.

• 2:02:42Bill Simmons?

  All right, we have to run. Van, a pleasure. Joel, awesome to finally have you on.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, I've had a lot of fun with you guys, man.

• 2:02:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we'll do it again.

• 2:02:51Speaker 02

  Easy on LSU.

• 2:02:55Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Joel and to Van. Thanks to Kyle Gahow and Sarudy for producing. As always, don't forget you can watch clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And don't forget, part two of the Thursday Extravaganza is coming later tonight. NFL, lots of it. See you in a couple hours.

• 2:03:39Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner,

• 2:04:24Bill Simmons?

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• 2:05:08Bill Simmons?

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