Michael Carter-Williams Former NBA Star opens up on Mental Health struggles and depression after early success, extra pressure going from Rookie of the year accolades to the injuries to fighting to feel alive and regain back control of his life.

“I was at the lowest point, I didn't know what I wanted. I didn't even know if I wanted to be alive at the time.” Michael Carter-Williams Former NBA star In this powerful episode of The Pivot Podcast, former NBA Rookie of the Year Michael Carter-Williams sits down with Ryan Clark, Fred Taylor, and Channing Crowder to share the untold story of his journey through the highs and lows of professional basketball, the quiet moments that almost broke him and uncovering resilience. From instant stardom to injury setbacks and battling to stay in the league, Micheal opens up on how he found the mental toughness needed to keep pushing when the world counted him out and shares how he found peace and joy again. From rock bottom back up to the fullest he's been in his life, Michael talks about the pressure of early success, the lessons learned from adversity, and how fatherhood and personal growth reshaped his mindset both on and off the court. This conversation is raw and honest about identity, perseverance, and finding purpose beyond the sport. He reflects on growing up in a wealthy town but not having wealth, navigating the feeling of being an outsider in both predominantly white and Black spaces, and how basketball became his outlet. Michael takes the guys through the surreal moment of winning Rookie of the Year with the 76ers, only to be traded the next season. He opens up about being coached by his childhood idol Jason Kidd, their fallout, the challenges of bouncing between five teams in five years, and the mental toll of trying to live up to high expectations. At one of the lowest moments in his life, Michael reveals how he lost both his NBA job and his fiancé in the same week, sending him into deep depression and self-doubt. He admits there was a time he didn’t even know if he wanted to be alive. But through therapy, self-reflection, and rediscovering his purpose, he found his way back, eventually re-earning the trust of his now-wife and securing a two-year deal with the Orlando Magic. Transitioning into the next phase of his life, Michael talks about his role as an ESPN analyst, the importance of teaching athletes about business, and why mental health is still taboo in NBA locker rooms. He hopes to change that narrative by starting real conversations something he wishes had been available to him earlier in his career. This episode of the Pivot is about survival, self-worth, and embracing the journey, no matter how unpredictable it gets. Michael Carter-Williams’ story proves that success isn’t defined by awards or contracts, but by the ability to fight through adversity, rebuild, and come back stronger than before. Don't forget to comment, follow and like for more conversations like this! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, Bose here. On your next track, listen for the decisions. Distortion on the bass, the vocal right up front. Every choice deliberate. With Bose, you'll hear it all. Your music deserves Bose.

• 0:15Ryan Clark?

  That's the thing people like, though. Hang out, you know what I'm saying? There he is. What's up, brother? You good, baby? Make change today, two light skins. Yeah, man, I like my light. I like my light skin brothers coming. You want me in my dog? Y'all ain't, y'all ain't wearing the suits like when you, when you had the president on you? Nah.

• 0:33Ryan Clark?

  You can ball, you ain't the president. There's only one light skin guy we get suited and booted for. There, remember, there was some, I remember on the- Y'all looking sharp, though. Yeah. Hey, on the comments, there was somebody was like, y'all got dressed up for Barco Ball. We was like, duh. Absolutely. Like, what you mean? What else you supposed to wear? Yeah, nah, I brought out the ball head. I had big respect for the president, man.

• 1:17Ryan Clark?

  Michael Carter-Williams, welcome to The Pivot. This is Channing Crowder, Freddie T, I'm RC, Pivot fam. Thank you for always pivoting with us, man. We connected recently and, you know, once we connected, you know, I shared that I read the Players Tribune and I just thought your story was fascinating. I thought your story is sort of why this show is what it is, dating all the way back to sitting with Michael Beasley. Basketball's so different than kind of the life we live and the way we have a little bit more stability, man. Like, but let's start like being young. I find it fascinating how you guys, your family, got the land y'all lived on

• 2:00Ryan Clark?

  and the difference between the outside of your home and what was inside of your home, that how that matched, like what your personality was in the league a little bit when you were going through things. Talk a little bit about- How you grew up, where you grew up and how that started to shape you?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  That's crazy that you put it that way too. I never heard anybody put it that way and it, you know, it is true. So growing up, my grandfather had won a poker game in this predominantly white neighborhood. And so he built his horse stable on that land. At first, he wasn't getting a lot of business because his name was Leroy. So he would, you know, say, hey, this is Leroy. Soon as these, all these, you know, white people heard Leroy, they would be like, ah, and we know what color he is. So he actually started going by Mike, which is why my name is Michael. So he started getting people to come to his stable and actually they got to see how he interacted with the horses. You know, nobody ever saw, you know, anybody, especially of color, deal with horses like that.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Like he could break in one horse by riding it and then have another one on the other side and break that horse in as well. So he started getting, you know, good, good business and my grandfather and my grandmother, they split up. And so my mom kind of grew up in, in that town. It's called Hamilton, one of the predominantly white area in that town and where my grandmother lived as well. So fast forward until, until I was born, my mom lived in a few different places. And then my grandfather still had all that land, so he built a house on, on that land. We built a nice house. It was a, you know, five, four or five bedroom house. It was a big house, but my mom was, you know, a basketball teacher. My stepfather was a basketball teacher, like they weren't, they weren't making the same income as everybody else in that same town.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  So growing up, you know, my mom always used to be like, how come I don't have this? How come I don't have this? Like my classmates have this, my classmates have that. And my mom was just like, you know, we don't, we don't have it like everybody else in this town. So growing up, that was like a, you know, always a struggle for me. My, my dad lived in the city at the time of Boston, lived in Cambridge. So I'd go in the city and see my cousins and my friends and I'd get looked at like. I'm this wealthy kid who lives in this, you know, predominantly white rich town. But really, there wasn't, you know, a lot in that. But, you know, there was pros and cons for it, right? Like, I went to really great schools when I was in, in grade school and middle school, in my first year of high school. Like, I could tell I was getting ahead because of, you know, how good the academics were. And I was always safe, right?

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Like, safety for me wasn't, was never a problem in my life. You know, a lot of my friends, you know, walking outside for them is like, you know, a blessing every day. So, for me, it was like, you know, they would come over, my doors is unlocked. Like, you know what I mean? They like, "Oh, I can't believe you live like this." But it was great for me to experience, you know, those two worlds. And, and sometimes it was tough, because sometimes I was looked at as that black kid in, you know, all white, you know, town. And sometimes I was looked at, you know, by, you know, the homies. And, you know, when I go to the hood and play hoops or something, like, I was this soft light-skinned kid from this, you know, all white town.

• 5:01Channing Crowder?

  And how did that change you as a person? Because I was kinda, I kinda did that while I was in Decatur in Atlanta. And then started balling and all, and, you know, the coaches come and, you know, they pluck the good athletes out and they take them out to the suburbs.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:14Channing Crowder?

  But that mid-ground of, like you're saying, I can go hang with the boys in the hood too, but they look at me totally different than this whole other side of town, which is, what is it, five, 10 miles away?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. When you see, you know, people from each, you know, each areas kinda interact with each other and like, actually spend time and visit, you know, that area, you just be, you get a new appreciation for everything, right? Like, yeah, I talk a lot about, you know, this area or this area, but when I actually go there, like, I'm like, you know, you start to just appreciate that a little bit more.

• 5:43Fred Taylor?

  When did you find your true identity? I'm sure, because that could have been confusing to a kid.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was. And, you know, I think when I was in, in, in college, that's when I just found, like, I'm, I'm comfortable with being, you know, me, right? I don't have that, like, you can say whatever you want about me, but like, I think me finding out, like, it's, you know, the, the person I am every day, the how I treat people all the time, you know, what I, what I do when nobody's watching, the work I put in, you know, I think all that happened after my freshman year in college, when, you know, that was probably the hardest basketball year of my life, when I wasn't playing. So, I did a lot of like, you know, I was forced to self-reflect a little bit on, you know, going through adversity, how am I gonna handle it? You know, ebbs and flows, you know? I think that was a big pivotal moment for me. And then also, fast forward, like, when I was in the NBA, the middle of my career,

• 6:30Speaker 02

  my NBA, my fiance left me, I was doing things I shouldn't have been doing, she left me. And then a week later, I got released from Houston. So that was another moment where I had to do like a lot of self reflect and you know, even though it was later on in my life, I feel like it was a big identity moment for me because it was like, you know, who do I want to be? How do I want to carry myself? You know, how do I want to be a father in my my child's life? You know, I started thinking about more, you know, serious things.

• 6:55Ryan Clark?

  Talk about the headspace you're in at that point. We skipped past a great final four run at Syracuse where ball is everything.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:04Ryan Clark?

  Right? Like, so I remember acting like I was mellow and shooting, you know, I didn't even hoop just because I remember what Syracuse ball was like all the way back for me to like Lawrence Moten, you know? And so you have that run, you're the rookie of the year. Now you've bounced around like five teams in five years. And you know, like you say, your fiance leaves and you know, your newborn baby is gone. You're traded and then waived and now you're in this position where all right, you you're trying to figure out who you want to be and the two people that are going to make you, who you need to be the most, aren't there. What headspace were you in and what were the steps that you took to get back closer to them?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, when that happened, bro, I'm not even gonna lie, like, it was the, you know, the lowest moment of my life. Like, I used to, I had deep depression, like, I, I was, I don't even know how to describe it, bro. Like, I didn't, I felt like I had no purpose in life. You know, all the noises that you hear from being an athlete, like, those, you know, the comments, they was all in my mind. And then, most importantly, I wasn't, you know, a father, you know, to my child that, you know, I wasn't, I didn't get to be there every day, you know? I didn't get to be with my fiance, who, you know, I loved and, you know, I still love. But, you know, I, I just, I was at the lowest point. Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't know, you know, what I wanted. I didn't even know if I wanted to be alive at the time. Like, I was really, like, at that point of time of, like, deep depression.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Depression runs in my family, so it's. It's hard, like it's a hard thing to deal with. And at that time, it was just the lowest of me.

• 8:39Ryan Clark?

  When did you find out about your grandmother's suicide?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Ah, that's tough, man. I, you know, I always knew she committed suicide. But the details and, you know, that was something that wasn't really talked about in my family. Like, it was like, I don't know too much about my grandmother. Like, it's like a forbidden kind of secret.

• 8:59Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 9:00Speaker 02

  That, it's just such a touchy subject, you know. A lot of, I spoke to people that were like at the funeral later on. They're like, it's one of the worst funerals they've ever been to. Because my mom was 20, my aunt was 18, I believe, and I was a newborn. So there was a lot of trauma, you know, going on, you know, at that time. It was tough. Only until recently where I started to really ask questions. You know, how did it happen? Like, what was people's, you know, reactions? Like, what was she like? It was something that was a, you know, a touchy subject for sure.

• 9:32Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, I think because that's, that's difficult because when you go to the doctor, people ask your medical history, right? And so you could say, I have a history of heart disease. I have a history of kidney disease or whatever it is. But emotionally and mentally, those things factor in, you know, as well. And so, you know, I know that as a part of a journey, sometimes those things are extremely important because it tells us who we are. You know, I know it's a lot in my family, especially the men on my dad's side, that I'm like, why am I like this? And then I look at all of them and I say, oh, yeah, there it goes.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:07Ryan Clark?

  You know, so I definitely get it.

• 10:09Channing Crowder?

  The history of that, to their point, but then the outside pressures of being who you are. Like, do you, did you ever have to break that down to like, what has my success brought on me? To what am I almost genetically known? Like, have you ever sep, like, tried to separate it, really figure it out?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  For a while, it was a struggle for me because I had to unravel everything, right? I had to unravel all the emotions that I was feeling. You know, my dad and mom not being together when I was growing up, like, not to say it was bad, it's just when your parents aren't together, you know, like, you know, sometimes you're like, dang, I wish I had, you know, my mom and dad together or I don't get to spend a lot of time, you know, at this, with this person. So it took a lot of unraveling for me to just really be like, I'm OK with this. I'm free with, free from this. And then at the same time, it was like, those things that I was struggling with basketball too, kind of unraveled as well. So like, when I got rid of all the emotions of, you know, everything that I felt growing up. Kind of the voices in my head about, you know, people saying I suck or, you know,

• 11:07Speaker 02

  I can't do this, I can't do that. That started to mean less to me as well.

• 11:11Fred Taylor?

  You carried a whole lot, but I want to understand rookie of the year in Philly, just straight out the gate. One would think that they would build around you, right? You'd be the centerpiece and they'll continue to build around you, but yet you were traded. So we recently had Nick Saban on the show. He spoke about titles, right? The pressures that come along with the expectations. For you, having been named rookie of the year, then the very next year traded, was that kind of the start of everything?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  I think so. I think it was a big part of it because I never understood it. I spent a lot of time trying to figure it out. I was disappointed. I felt like this organization just gave up on me. Like I was in meetings where I wouldn't even ask to be in and like they would be like, this is our, these are our future plans. This is what we want to do. There was just a lot of things that were surrounding me that made me feel like, oh, I'm here for the long haul. And I mean, yeah, I was rookie of the year. I was like, okay, like I'm comfortable here. I don't really have to worry about trade deadlines and this and that. And I didn't know how to handle it. And then when I got to Milwaukee, it was, it was funny. I was talking to my wife about this the other day and we were laughing about it. When I got to Milwaukee, Brandon Knight had just got traded. He got traded somewhere else. He was a part of the three team trade. Everyone was like, it was, it was like a sad,

• 12:25Speaker 02

  sad, sad time when B. Knight got traded. Like he, he must have affected their organization more than just being a Hooper. Like he had real relationships with staff members and teammates and things like that. So when I got there, like everybody was upset. And I'm like, man, like I just felt like, you know, a team just gave up on me and now I'm at a team where like, it wasn't anything bad. Like it was like they welcomed me. Don't get me wrong, but it was like, I could tell that they just, you know, somebody just left them that they cared about. So it was tough all the way around.

• 12:53Ryan Clark?

  One, I've had that happen. When I became a free agent, signee of the Steelers, Chris Hope had left and went to Tennessee. And he left and was told them they wouldn't give him the money that he asked for. And so now I come into this space, somebody that they don't really know. I'm coming from a spot that I thought was supposed to love me. And they went and made Adam Archilett to the highest paid safety in the league and told me, well, if you come back for league minimum, all three of you could play, you know what I'm saying? So I get that feeling. And now you're, you feel sort of displaced, but like when I look at it, it's like. Your game was multifaceted. You could put the ball in the bucket, but you were long, you rebounded. You dished the basketball, you know, and so you could do all those things. And like now you got J. C. Kidd though, right?

• 13:38Ryan Clark?

  Like that, that seems like the perfect place to learn and to flourish. Why didn't that relationship work out as well as it may seem like the fit was from the outside? It's hard to play for a great player, obviously.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is tough. And you know, J. Kidd was, you know, one of my idols like growing up. I used to watch him play all the time. You know, he was a bigger guard that can pass the ball. Like I loved his game. But to be honest, bro, it was one of those things where it's like you never want to meet your idols because you don't know who they are as people. And for me, it was him and I could never get on the same page, you know, on the court. And I feel like that has started to affect things off the court. You know, him and I have the same agent, so we used to kind of talk through our agent. And so we never had that communication between each other. It was always like we'd go run back to our agent and say this and this and that. But it was hard and I think he expected me to, and he was, it was early on in his career too. It was just his first couple of years.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  So he was still figuring out how to be a head coach as well. So him and I, we, we could never, I felt, I even said to him at one point like, listen, I'm not you right now. Like the person that you want me to be, I'm not him right now. And I need the help to get the progression to get me there. And I think he saw a lot of me in himself. And I think he got frustrated with kind of that process. And it, it made us kind of butt heads and not be on the same page. And it was unfortunate because I loved, you know, the organization. I loved my teammates there. Like I built a relationship with Yanis till this day. That's like my brother. So like it was hard, like it was hard going through that. And then I got traded the last game of preseason to another team. And you know how it is, bro.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  You get traded the last game of preseason and you don't get any preseason with this team, with the next team you're going to, you're behind automatically. So I felt like, man, I was kind of, you know, a kick in the nuts a little bit. Like you sending me to Chicago, they had like five guards already, you know? So I was, it was, it was just unfortunate that it couldn't work out.

• 15:37Ryan Clark?

  The coaching side of it, especially jumping around, like you saying, I can't even think about getting traded the week before the season starts. It's like, man, what defense y'all run again? Yeah, it gotta be crazy. There's the coaching and then like the scheme of it where I'm sure all through high school, all through college, you were the man.

• 15:56Channing Crowder?

  Give me the ball. Hey, y'all do what y'all want to. Watch this. You know, Zay, we watch you play. And then now you're getting into these different schemes. Is it the scheme? Is it like you're saying, the understanding? What's those transitions when you do jump that fast?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  And when I look back at my career, it's one of the most... I'm so proud of how I was able to adjust, you know, my game and in any situation that I was in, right? Like I did, I went from, you know, being the man in high school, having the ball in my hands in college, winning Rookie of the Year, to getting traded. Now I'm in a playing in a different role on a different team. You know, I went to Chicago, some games I had DMPs. And I'm like, man, a year and a half ago, you know, I was, you know, Rookie of the Year, like. But I was able to always keep a good relationship with people to where I'm like, "Coach, what do you need me to do on the floor?" Whatever that team needed, I was going out there and I was trying to do that, right? Like, I don't have to score a bucket, but if you want me to guard the best player every night,

• 16:49Speaker 02

  and you want me to rebound the ball and get guys in the offense, that's what I'll do. You know, and I think that's why I did play 10 years. You know, I had a couple of seasons where, and while all this is going on too, I had so many injuries to my body. I couldn't... I've had like seven surgeries. Like, it was hard. Like, my mind was telling me to do things that my body couldn't do sometimes. And you, all of y'all know, like, as athletes, like, that's the most frustrating thing, like. My natural reaction is to do this, and now I can't do that anymore. So, those games were playing with me as well during, you know, this whole time. But even still, like, I was just tough in that area where I was like, "I wasn't gonna let this injury hinder me from doing the things I do." Until, you know, until I knew, okay, it's time.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Like, I'm forced out the league now. So, yeah, it was, it was hard.

• 17:37Channing Crowder?

  Do you look back and, because I'm just, what Jimmy Butler doing right now with the Heat? Well, I'm in Miami, so I follow it every single day. Do you think it's advantageous to be a little more asshole-ish? With things like you're saying, whatever the coach says to me, do what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do. But some of them good players be like, "Man, you can go to hell. That ain't me."

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Well, one, I think some guys have that luxury to do. I didn't have that luxury. So, I think guys that do, and I look at it, I'm like, sometimes I catch myself and I'm like, "Man, like, why is Jimmy doing this? Like, why is he being an asshole about this situation?" But...

• 18:11Speaker 02

  I also look at it on the other side where I'm like, the things I've gone through in this league, the betrayal I've had to face, the things that have been done to me wrong, all behind closed doors. Like, if I was able to be at a stature like Jimmy, I'm not sure how I would act in Jimmy's situation either, right? Like, we hear it all the time about teams are able to do this, teams are able to do that, and there's no repercussion to the team. But if a player does it, right, it's Jimmy's front page on ESPN, right? So, I'm not saying that, like, guys should be assholes or whatever, but like, sometimes standing your ground is like, listen, I'm not gonna be played with, because if I don't take this stance, then I know what comes after, right? So it's that battle of, you know, say whatever you want about me,

• 18:56Speaker 02

  but I'm not gonna be put in a situation where I'm set up to fail.

• 18:59Ryan Clark?

  I think the other thing to the point of what he's saying is, it's, when the team does it, it's great business. The team understood where the player was headed. He knew, they knew that he was on the back end of his career. When a player stands up for himself, he's an a-hole. You know what I'm saying? Why can't he be doing good business? Why can't he be paying attention to what his career is? And I think because that's the way the narratives are spun, and because the team obviously has the bigger and better connections, a lot of times, players do get painted a certain way, but it's the dudes that have done enough, accomplished enough, and are in a place where they don't care about those perceptions. Because if you, talent builds tolerance, right?

• 19:43Ryan Clark?

  If you're good enough, they'll still trade for you, even though you were a problem there, because they feel like they'll treat you better, and you won't be a problem here.

• 19:50Channing Crowder?

  And Jimmy gave them two finals appearances. They gave Jimmy about 200 mil.

• 19:54Ryan Clark?

  Everybody should be happy.

• 19:56Channing Crowder?

  Everybody's straight, but it's usually not that way. Now, everybody gets upset, the fanbase gets upset.

• 20:00Fred Taylor?

  And then the tactics on the back end, too. Like, it just doesn't look good on the outside. But, you know, when you don't address his concerns, then he acts out, and then now it gets real sloppy, and both sides are disgruntled, or at least that's how I see it.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  No, yeah, I see that.

• 20:17Fred Taylor?

  So, RC started off by asking you about the Players Tribune interview, right? I thought it was brilliant. Having dealt with injuries much like yourself throughout my career, I had to get a sports therapist. Nowadays, they call him a mental coach. And for me, that was therapeutic. Opening up and talking about your depression, anxiety, your struggles, the injuries, that whole piece. Was that therapeutic to you in some sort of way?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz I mean, when I did come out with the story, you know, I just wanted to be, you know, I just wanted to tell kind of my side of everything else that was going on. And it's not always what it seems like on the outside to people. I felt like my story was always told by somebody else and I kind of wanted to set that straight. And for me, it was therapeutic because of everybody that reached out to me. Like, you know, I never knew that so many people, you know, had those same issues that I had. From other athletes to, you know, my, you know, my ex-coach's son, like, you know, like, all different types of, you know, people that reached out and was like, you know, I had one guy, and I won't say his name, he played in the NBA,

• 21:25Speaker 02

  but he reached out to me and he was like, man, like, I felt like I was writing this story, you know, from my own experience. And I'm like, those type of moments, I'm like, man, like, I'm happy I did, you know, be vulnerable in that situation and really put that out there.

• 21:39Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, would his name happen to be Michael?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 21:42Fred Taylor?

  Because we had a Michael on the show.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  But I played with bees.

• 21:45Fred Taylor?

  And it sounds pretty much the same. You know, just passionate guys who can hoop their asses off. Just something kind of sort of derailed along the way. We weren't able to see their fullest potential.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I played with bees and like, him and I used to have conversations all the time. And he's such an interesting dude, like, on the outside, he looks one way. You know, on Instagram, on, you know, all that stuff, he looks one way. But like, I'm sure you guys can even tell just by sitting down with him, like, he's a special dude. Like, his brain works in like a different way. But like, if you spend time understanding it, like, you can tell like, how much of a good dude he is.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Hey, Bose here. On your next track, listen for the decisions. Distortion on the bass, the vocal right up front. Every choice deliberate. With Bose, you'll hear it all. Your music deserves Bose.

• 22:40Ryan Clark?

  Fred mentioned opening up and being vulnerable in the sense of the article, but...

• 22:46Ryan Clark?

  When you get to Orlando, you're on a 10-day. You've been through so many of these other things, right? You've experienced the five teams in five years. You've lost your fiance and your baby and had to go back and earn that trust. But now you're in a place where you get a 10-day contract and you... Obviously, ball's important, but you're like, I need to speak to someone. What was the process of finally understanding you needed that sort of help? And then seeking that help like?

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just got to a place where I was like, I can't do this myself. Like, it was too hard to, you know, try to figure everything out. And I was doing my duty. I was reading books. I was writing. I was doing a lot of things, you know, to really help me to get my emotions out there, to, you know, self-talk that everything's gonna be okay. Like, well, I'll work it out. I'll be able to see my daughter. Like, I did all that stuff, but I still felt like it wasn't enough. Like, I still found myself, you know, going to practice and then going home and not doing anything else. Like, I wasn't... I didn't feel like myself. So I think reaching out and getting help was one of the best things that I've ever done. And it made it easier for me, because like you said, I was only on a 10-day. So for me, I was thinking about, all right, I got 10 days to prove that. I can either get another 10-day, or they can extend me for the rest of the season.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  So I was going in there like I was the happiest dude in the gym. I was the most talkative guy in the gym, just communicating just about everything, teaching the young guys, getting in extra work. Like, had to do all those things for 10 days, got another 10-day. I was saying, you know, the same thing. And then I got signed for the rest of the season, and then I ended up playing three years with Orlando. But it was like, that's getting therapy helped me even coming to the gym and be able to be, you know, happy and be able to be that guy that was able to extend my career.

• 24:35Ryan Clark?

  He talks about that. But Channing's, to me, one of the best things he ever said on this show, and I don't know if you've ever seen it, he said... Check on your happy friend. You know what I mean? He's like the guy that's laughing, or the guy that's the energy, or the guy that's bringing joy, because you don't know necessarily what they're covering up with that. You know, when I made the house statement, and outside and the inside earlier, I was really speaking to that, because you said you were the energy. You said you were the happiest guy, because you thought that's what you had to be. And I think a lot of times, as friends of people who are going through things, because they are so strong on the outside, you don't know to reach out. You know, like, they come in laughing.

• 25:19Ryan Clark?

  Hell, you just start laughing too, right? And you start having that same energy that they have. You know, like, it's a lot of days, we walk through the airport, and I put him in front of me. You know what I mean? Because I know no matter who walks up to us, he's gonna make that person feel like they, that he's having the best day in the world, and they're gonna have it. I don't have that all the time. Like, a lot of times, I got like a, "Hey, man, how you doing? God bless you." Because I'm dealing with stuff, man. And so, I think it's interesting for people that are listening or watching, like, to know that. Like, you were going through this. You were taking your life legitimately ten days at a time, thinking about how you had to be for other people, man. Like, I can't imagine, like, that sort of weight.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it was heavy. It was heavy. But again, it's just something that I look back on, and I'm like, I'm proud of that moment. I'm proud I was able to get through that. That, and those moments helped me, you know, in other avenues in my life, and to be able to teach, you know, my kids. You know, like, I am real with myself. Like, I got, you know, anxiety. I got, I take medicine for depression. Like, you know, I now, I'm now okay with, you know, how I am and what I need to do to, you know, stay healthy in that mindset. But again, like, it's hereditary. It runs in my family, so who knows if my kids will, you know, end up having that, right? It's a big thing for me to figure these things out, so then I can help, you know, my daughter and my son if they go do the same thing.

• 26:43Ryan Clark?

  And something else that I guess, when I get caught up in, when I did have, you know, down times, whatever, and I am the, I'm the, you know, joke, I'm gonna press around, play around the whole time. But like,

• 26:53Channing Crowder?

  I'm a millionaire. Why would I put my problems on you? You know what I'm saying? Like the financial side of it where you're like, yeah, you know, I'm stressed out. I'm playing a different role with the team. But they're paying you millions of dollars. Like, shut up. Like, I don't, nobody ever said that to me. But mentally, I thought that, like, I'm not gonna tell this person that's working at Publix that I'm upset because the team adjusted my role from Will to Mike linebacker. Man, them is rich people problems. Shut up. Go do your damn job. Like, did you ever, kind of, the money and like, that stature of a celebrity be like, man, I can't complain to nobody.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. Like, I did, I did feel that way. I think I felt too much that way at one point. But I also think there's some truth to that as well, right? Like, I try to always put my life in perspective of, you know, somebody else's. And I'm not saying that's any way to live of, oh, this is okay, this happened to me because this, this person has gone through a lot more. But in some instances, I do look at the people around me in my life and say, would I trade my struggles in for theirs? I don't know. I, I can't definitively say I would, right? Like, there's things that are positive in my life. And I did play nine years in the NBA, 10 years in the NBA. And I did, you know, accomplish a lot of these things. Even though I, I went through my fair share of problems, I don't know if I'd be willing to switch it out with, you know, just anybody.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Because I don't, I don't know what, you know, they've gone through. So I try to do perspective checks in my mind all the time. Like, you are, you know, be, you know, practice gratitude. Be grateful for the things that I have in my life.

• 28:23Fred Taylor?

  The perception is a, is a mofo. But even along those lines, in sports in general, there's a stigma that says, that speaks to toughness, right? What, what type of advice would you give to, like, a younger player? Or some sort, that might be going through some sort of mental issues or depression?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  I would say first, you know, go talk to somebody. Get help. You know, I, I would tell them that, in my experience with a therapist, it's amazing to me how they can walk you down this path and lead you to different answers on the way. Just about yourself that you might not know. You know, if you don't want to talk to a therapist, you know, talk to a friend, talk to me. Like, it doesn't matter. But I think you voicing it out and getting it off your chest is so important. And not, not to be afraid to. I think a lot of people are afraid to get help. And I'd also tell them To kind of pay attention to yourself a little bit. I did try to tell everybody to pay attention to themselves a little bit. Because sometimes, I was going through things that I didn't even, I didn't even know that I was like depressed or feeling. I just thought that like, this is regular, like this is life.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Like, bad things happen in life, now I gotta get through them. Like, no, I think, when I started paying attention to myself a little bit more, I, I started to be more confident and be like, man, I, I need to fix this. Like, I need some help outside of just me.

• 29:41Ryan Clark?

  Fred mentioned, we sat with Nick Saban. And he said, a ton of amazing things. The one thing that stands out as I listen to you talk is, Nick Saban said, a ton of times, the failure of athletes comes from them attempting to live up to expectations. Those set by themselves, those set by others. Sometimes, expectations set by the level of success you've already attained. You know, you think about yourself, where you're drafted, the way you play your rookie year. There's all of these expectations. I mean, you had expectations on yourself from understanding, if I don't go hoop, I can't afford college.

• 30:24Ryan Clark?

  How much did expectations play a part into some of the pressure you felt? And could have added to the feelings of sadness and depression when you weren't accomplishing what you wanted to do?

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it, it was tough because I would tell myself, you know, I'm gonna, okay, I was Rookie of the Year. I'm gonna do everything I can to have a good year this year, you know, earn a starting spot somewhere, you know. Try to, you know, try to be an All-Star and then shut everybody up. Like, that was always my, my, my thing in my head, like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. And I fell short of that because I'd never reached that goal. But, I think it, in, in a way, it always pushed me. Like, it pushed me to be in the gym and it pushed me like, you know, you know, aim for the stars and hit the moon, right? Like, those type of things, right? And I think- You know, that helped me, you know, stay with it. Like, just keeping to stay with it.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Like, those people that doubted me, those people that said I couldn't do this, even though I didn't reach my max goal, it's still... Where I did end up was great because of that work that I put in. And I think it's true. I think it's true that what Nick said, right? You set expectations of yourself and you don't reach them and you get so down. Or you did so well in the past and now you're trying to get back to that. That's a real game that people play.

• 31:44Ryan Clark?

  A while back, we had an argument because Channing doesn't let us ever have feelings.

• 31:52Ryan Clark?

  And, you know, we were just talking about fear, whether irrational or rational. And, you know, Freddie T was talking about how fear of failure pushed him. You know, this is a Hall of Fame talented dude. You know what I'm saying? Top 10 pick. You know what I'm saying? Like, he showed us his basketball picture from high school, bro. He was in ninth grade. He was like 6'1 1/2, 240. And he was like rocked up with traps and everything.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  240, bro?

• 32:17Ryan Clark?

  How big were you?

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Nah, I was like 212.

• 32:19Ryan Clark?

  Thank you!

• 32:22Ryan Clark?

  You know what I mean? But what I'm saying is, though, like, someone as talented as him, as talented and gifted as you are, like, that fear of failure is a good thing because it doesn't allow complacency. But there's also, like, where do we put failure? You know what I'm saying? Like, I was undrafted. You know what I mean? And so I was able to come into the league and be like, shoot, I just want to make the team. So you make the 53, and I was like, wait, this is a success. Now, I continue to work because you like the way success feels. You know what I mean? And then the next year, I come into camp, and it was like, man, I want to be a starter on defense at a position. You know, I'm the starting nickel. Wow, this is, you know what I'm saying?

• 33:06Ryan Clark?

  So every year, I allowed to, I kind of set my expectations on the reality of where I was in life or where I was in sports. And so it allowed me to not feel like a failure, even though at the time, I wasn't Ed Reed. You know what I'm saying? At the time, I'm not Troy Palamalu. But when you are where some of you guys are at some times, like, of course, you're going to aim for the, you're going to aim for the stars. Right? Because that's what you feel like you're supposed to do. How much of what you thought...

• 33:42Channing Crowder?

  Of yourself was based on what you felt you were supposed to be doing?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  I mean, I think at the beginning, I really was, it was on my mind a lot like I'm supposed to be doing this, I'm supposed to be playing this way, I'm supposed to be averaging this many points, my trajectory is going down instead of up. But then like you said, like I started, I got so low in my life that the small wins really, I just appreciated them a lot more. So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm in Houston and James goes out, you know, I go in and I have 23 this game. I'm in Orlando and, you know, three or four guys are out, two are injured, one's sick, and I go in there and we beat Sacramento. I have, you know, 24 points. Like those, those little games, those little things, you know, those games,

• 34:27Speaker 02

  singular games of playing well, or making the playoffs with Orlando and really feeling like I was a big part of that. That's what success was for me. Even just, even signing a multi-year deal, I'm like, man, like, I was, I was, you know, six feet deep damn near, and now I'm signing a two-year deal with the Orlando Magic, right? So I counted all those things as wins and blessings.

• 34:49Channing Crowder?

  You were talking about Bees. So something that sticks with me vividly with his conversation was like, midway, mid-conversation, we're talking, and he just starts hitting his feet. He's like, but I just want to play ball. He was like, you know, we're getting into it, he's emotional, he's like, but I just want to play basketball. Like, that's what he wanted to do. Like, he loved the game, and it was something. I don't know, that's, you know, when in that time when, it almost like basketball is not fun anymore, or the antics of basketball is not fun anymore, or it just seems like that with some guys where it's like, you love playing this game, but is it the, is it the business of it, is it the outside, is it the pressure to that point, the failure? Like, when does it come where basketball, that you played your whole life, it's not what it was once before in your mind?

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think in basketball, it's a lot different than football. Like, if you grew up being a safety and, you know, playing in elementary school, middle school, high school to the pros, like, the game is different for you as a safety, but it's also a lot more similar to, you know, guys who are really good in high school to the guys in basketball and guys who are the pros. Like, you have guys that were stars in high school at having the ball in their hands all the time to becoming in the NBA, and now they're this role player. You know, and their game is nothing like it was in high school. So I think that challenge is really hard, right? And I don't, and this isn't speaking bad about Bees, but I don't think that's possible for him. Like, I think for him, he's gotta be that guy that he was in high school, that he was

• 36:19Speaker 02

  in college, and that he knows, because he's so, he's so competitive that he's not gonna be, he's not gonna go out there and take two shots and be like, "I'm a defensive guy, I'm locking this dude up, I'll make him..." No, he's gonna go out there and get to his bag, get to his left hand. And so, but sometimes that, you know, if you lose, if you get to an organization and they say, you know, "We don't want you to be that, we already have this." You know, it's hard for guys to make that adaptation to, "I'm gonna switch up my whole game now because this is what this organization needs," right? And a lot of guys find themselves in the trouble because they can't do that. And so, it's hard, like, I don't blame, it's not an easy thing. Like, when I was, for a while, I was on a team where I was playing defense, getting

• 37:04Speaker 02

  the guys involved, and I was sitting in the corner. And then I gotta go back and guard the best player every single possession. And I'm not, I'm not really getting the ball like that to do whatever I want, because that's what those guys' jobs are to do, right? And if you go against that grain, then you're gonna be sitting on the bench, and somebody else will come in and play defense and stand in the corner. So it's hard for guys to do that.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Hey, Bose here. On your next track, listen for the decisions. Distortion on the bass, the vocal right up front. Every choice deliberate. With Bose, you'll hear it all. Your music deserves Bose.

• 37:41Fred Taylor?

  So looking back on all of that we've talked about, are you at peace with everything?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  I feel so blessed that I was able to play that long in the NBA. I feel motivated for my life, you know, post, you know, NBA. I feel like I got so many, so many different things going on that I'm excited to see what, what that career looks like. You know, my kids got to see me play. You know, it's funny to see their reactions when, you know, people come up to me and say, hey, I remember you on the Orlando Magic. Can we take a picture and all and seeing their reactions to that. Really, I got no regrets. Like, I'm proud of my career and what I was able to do on a basketball court. And it was fun. It was, it was great.

• 38:23Fred Taylor?

  We do our research. I'm calling your Instagram, stalking it, actually. I see the picture there with Kobe, the day that he passed. Is there any moments or memories that stick out that you can share with us?

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember we played them in LA. I can't remember what the play was. We were on defense, he was on offense. Their team had a possession and we got them down to like the, like four seconds left in the shot clock. Somebody had tipped the ball and it went high up in the air. And it was me and Jordan Clarkson. We both went to go get it. And they called a foul on me. And he went to the line and me and Kobe were talking and Kobe was like, why'd you go after the ball? I'm like, what do you mean, why did I go after the ball? Like, it was a loose ball. And he was like, yeah, but there was only three seconds left on the shot clock. So just let him caught it and the shot clock was gonna run out, he was gonna shoot it.

• 39:08Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  And I was like, yeah, but like, it was just, it was a reaction, reaction kind of thing. But like, that, that moment, it showed me how, like, how he processes like the game in real time. Like, real quick. Like, if it was him, he wouldn't have jumped. Cause he, he said it like, right after I, I did that. And, um, and then after the game, went to the locker room. I got some shoes signed by him. You know, we shook hands and, you know, I was saying, appreciate, you know, just playing against you in general, right? Like, watching you as a kid and then going against him. And then it was another time, it was in that same game where I was guarding him in the post. Stripped him clean, clean as a whistle. Like, no, no, did it, touched his hand, no, no hand, nothing. Tried to post me up, do that turnaround, swipe down, ball went straight down, clean.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Wow, I'm like, I'm like, come on, like to the ref, I remember saying to the ref, like, if this isn't Kobe Bean, you're not calling that. There's no way.

• 40:00Fred Taylor?

  It's kind of like our game, everybody thinks Mahomes get these phantom calls.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:05Fred Taylor?

  What do you think? I know you watch football.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I watch, I watch. Some of them are questionable, but they do dissect everything, though.

• 40:11Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, they do.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Like, any, any type of controversial call, they dissect it. But there, there's big plays that happen where they, it favors, it goes their way, but I feel like that's, that's in every sport. Like, when you're the top dog, you're getting those 50-50s all the time.

• 40:24Ryan Clark?

  Well, it's the, this is that thing, guys. The best of us, when we get the call, we make you pay. Like, that's the difference. It's a lot of sorry teams that get calls, but they sorry. You know what I mean? Like, you, you, early on in the season, you could rough the passer against the Carolina Panthers, whether it was Andy Dalton or Bryce, because guess what? They probably wouldn't go score. You know what I mean?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:50Ryan Clark?

  You rough the passer against Kansas City, you give him 15 yards in the first, they putting points on the board. And so then you look at the end of the game, and you're like, man, that led to points because of them, not because...

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Right. Like, your coaches have never said to you, like, we're not going to get those calls, we're not that team.

• 41:05Ryan Clark?

  I think reputation is, is important, right? Because when we were the best defense in the world, they created rules around us to keep us from being what we were. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was fined, like, six times in one year. Uh, one of them was just 40,000 for a hit. James Harrison was fined all the times. Like, we were getting calls every week to tell us what we couldn't do, when just the year before, we were on the cover of East Penn magazine for playing that way.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:34Ryan Clark?

  You know, so I, I think it, it just depends on what your reputation is. Like, in the regular season, because I know the playoffs have been a certain way, the... Kansas City Chiefs, bro, are 27th in rushing, roughing the passer calls. There are 26 teams with more roughing the passers for them than Patrick Mahomes.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:57Ryan Clark?

  One, they're in primetime all the time, and we pay attention to it. And I think like that's, it's about like what you, it's about what you've become. And it kind of brings me to a question for you. Jabari Parker, I would think it was maybe last year, was talking about what his process has been like. And there's a picture of you, Jason Kidd, Jabari Parker, and Giannis. And then you look at, from what I knew of the two when they got into the league, if you asked me who was going to be who, I would have switched them. Knowing both of those men, how do you kind of put into context what their careers have become from where they started?

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, at one point, it was like, who was better, Jabari or Giannis? I think that, one, Jabari had those knee injuries, which, first when he came back, he was like more explosive than he was before. It was crazy to see. And, but the second time it happened, I think that that hurt him a lot. Not to say that Giannis wouldn't still, you know. But I do think that played a big part in it. I think during that time, Giannis took a lot of leaps and bounds. And I think culturally, everybody was the same way. Who's better, Giannis or Jabari? And when Jabari went down and Giannis kept going up, I think the culture shifted to Giannis and like, we're like, we're putting all our, all our eggs here. And as you know, when you're a star and that happens, it's not, that's not easy to, you know, to catch back up if you're Jabari.

• 43:23Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  And I think mentally, I think those injuries affected Jabari as well. Just knowing him, you know, as a person, I think it was hard for him to really realize that like, he's, he has fallen down a little bit and he needs to kind of get back up there. And, and I'm not saying he handled it, he didn't handle it well or he handled it well. I just know the results of the two, the two, you know, people would happen. I think. Yeah, it like for you for you to get to Giannis' level, it takes, you know, hard work. They both worked extremely hard. They both did a lot of great things. I think luck is a little bit, you know, in play too, right? I think you get, you know, avenues in your career that is a little bit more fortunate than others.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  So that's the only the best way I could describe it because they were both neck and neck. Jabari was really, really good. But I think Giannis' I think Giannis' leaps in his bounds of where he could be were always a lot higher than what Jabari's were.

• 44:21Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, the floor.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  The floor was.

• 44:23Ryan Clark?

  From an athleticism standpoint.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Athleticism standpoint, from moving to the length, you know, size. So I think it was always going to end up that way. I just think at that time and moment, it was like, who was better?

• 44:33Ryan Clark?

  Basketball is different than football, right? I guess we got Canada. If the NFL doesn't work out, like this arena football, you know.

• 44:42Channing Crowder?

  That ain't the same.

• 44:43Ryan Clark?

  But with Hoopers, why does it seem that guys hold on to it, to that dream so much longer than what it feels like in football for sure? They'll go play overseas or they're playing in these smaller leagues and just kind of continuing to do something that they love to do, knowing that the top tier potential of what they've always dreamed of is no longer an option?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I think, I mean, with you guys, right? Growing up and being around other football players, I think that like you guys have always, your careers aren't as long as basketball guys. So you're all you guys are always, I got close friends that played in the NFL and they're always like, once I stop playing, I'm going to do this, this and this. Like that that mindset was always, and you guys can get injured at any time, any moment. So like your backup plan is always pressed in my eyes, you know, some more than others, of course, but you know, as a whole, I think that's the reason why and as. And also, opportunity overseas, you know, guys are making good, like Shane Larkin makes like two, three mil overseas.

• 45:53Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, guys make good money overseas as well. So I think, to those two things, right, I think having a backup plan, I don't think a lot of guys trying to make it to the NBA are really focused on that backup plan. Because you can play until you're thirty-eight, thirty-nine. So they're like, I got time to make it. If I don't make it here, I can go overseas and have a long career. So at some, some instances, they're right. Uh, but I think that's why it's not as quick to cut off. Because you can make, you can make good cheese overseas if, if you, you know, if you're one of those guys.

• 46:20Ryan Clark?

  I mean, I didn't know, that's better than a regular damn job.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  That is.

• 46:23Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  No, you can make good money, and those are the top guys. Like, he's one of the, he's one of the top, top dudes, but, um, you know, people make three hundred, three, three, four hundred thousand, five hundred thousand in, in overseas.

• 46:34Fred Taylor?

  Now, I learned this one thing from a good friend. Looking at you, it would seem that you're in, you know, in great headspace. Um, got the, the analyst college gig and just everything else. Uh, but I was taught to ask this question so it doesn't haunt me later. You good? You okay?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  I'm okay.

• 46:52Fred Taylor?

  Do you need anything?

• 46:53Speaker 02

  I'm good. I'm all good. Great headspace, healthy, kids is here, wife's here, I'm good.

• 46:59Ryan Clark?

  We don't do a lot of relationship talk on this show. So, uh, but when you are trying to rebuild a relationship, um, women have very long memories, you know, and for a woman who loves a man, who shares a child with a man, to pack up and leave, there has to be something there that pushed her away. What was it like working to rebuild that relationship, rebuild that trust, you know, to the point to where you could be a family?

• 47:37Speaker 02

  It was difficult to do that, like, to rebuild the trust, to kind of show her. I, I, I needed to change a lot about myself. Like, I needed to... You know, really focus on what I wanted to do with my life, who I wanted to be, what type of morals do I have? You know, how am I gonna act, you know, in a relationship versus out of a relationship? My daily habits, like, what do those look like? Um, so I, I think me doing all those things, you know, was attractive to her. And I think she could see that I wasn't the same person as, as I was before, because I've worked on myself and I was doing all those things. And then we, you know, we started co-parenting, and it was like we were building a friendship at the time, and then that's when everything came together. Uh, but it's not easy, though. It, it, it definitely takes,

• 48:23Speaker 02

  you know, a lot of communication, a lot of, you know, being standard of, you know, holding, holding those morals that I set to myself, that I'm, I'm, you know, gonna, that, that's my new way of life. That isn't just a, I'm gonna do these things so I can get you back, and then do all, you know, fall off the, the rails. I think being consistent in all those things that I've made changes to in my life is, you know, important.

• 48:45Ryan Clark?

  Was you in the club with James Harden?

• 48:47Speaker 02

  That, you heard what I said. She left me when I was in Houston. And I, and I got released in Houston, so.

• 48:57Ryan Clark?

  I just needed one more night.

• 48:59Channing Crowder?

  Get in my directory. Onyx, was it Onyx?

• 49:04Ryan Clark?

  Hey, Houston.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Houston.

• 49:08Ryan Clark?

  Hey, I thought about it when he says, you know, James went out, you know, you played well. I was like, wait, what was wrong that time? Yeah, I like Houston.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  That, that moral compass gets janky down south, right?

• 49:22Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, hey, listen, I'm from the NO, man. Um, I get it. You know, Fred mentioned, like, the new gig now, and, you know, we text about it and kinda had some conversations. When you think about what you want to be going forward, how you want to be. Going forward, what are your thoughts about how you approach a new career?

• 49:46Speaker 02

  I'm excited for it. Like, I got so many different things going on. You know, working with ESPN, being an analyst has been something that I always dreamed of doing post-retirement. Going through that process, kind of chasing that dream. But also, you know, a whole bunch of other, you know, business ventures that I'm going down to. One being, I put a group together to get a team, the WNBA team to Boston. And that's something that I've been working really hard on. And what I, you know, trying to do, I think would be pivotal. That's where I'm from. Bringing a, you know, women's basketball, something I've been involved in since my sister started playing. You know, created an AAU team for her. MCW Stars, my mom has, you know, developed that AAU program to like 15, 16 girls teams.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Sent countless girls to college. So to do that would be, you know, would be amazing. I got the people behind me to do it. I got a great group of people. And there's a bunch of other things. I did a car wash deal with Yanis up in Milwaukee. So there's just a bunch of different things that I got my hands in. And I just want to keep elevating and like, just keep going. Keep doing the ESPN thing. Keep doing my business ventures and, you know, just keep striving. And I have fun with it every day, connecting with new people, reaching out. I think a big thing that you guys could probably talk about is you talk about everything in the locker room. Besides business and mental health. You know, those two things are, for some reason, a forbidden, not forbidden thing to talk about. We just don't rap about it. Like, it's just not part of the culture.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  And me being, as a guy who spent nine years in the league, I want to start to have those conversations with guys and athletes. And it's awkward, right? It's like, oh, you want to come here and talk to me about business? You want my, you must want my money. You want this, you want that. And half the time, I'm like, listen, like, this is an opportunity. This is something that has worked for me. I'm trying to reach out to you to kind of create that conversation. Create that bond with your financial people, right? Like, there's too much gray area where if we are, you know, if we're cool and we're friends, we've been friends for a long time, we trust each other. And I go to your financial advisor, your manager, whatever, and I say, hey, you know, what's going on? You know, me and him have been friends for a long time. Our friendship always comes first before everything, but there's these business opportunities. I want to run by you and maybe something that works for all of us.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  To create those conversations, something that I've been doing a lot more with a lot of different athletes. And it's been great because... Like I said, business and mental health is the two things that I'm going down is that we don't really talk about that often.

• 52:15Ryan Clark?

  As you elevate, are you gonna let somebody send you to the locker room when your team, when their team on a losing streak like they did Stephen A?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Man, that was a crazy story, though. It's true, he was mad at me for saying that, though. He ain't like that.

• 52:26Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, so wait. We all lost 26 in the...

• 52:29Speaker 02

  We lost 26 straight, and when I tell you the media we had that week, it was everywhere. Coverage on ESPN, SportsCenter, all that, like.

• 52:36Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  It was everywhere. And then, when we won, I wasn't, I was not losing that game. I was not gonna be in the record books for the most losses consecutive in history. I was not losing. So, we won that game, and I kid you not, there was not one media person in the locker room. Not a single one. And I'm like, damn, if we would've lost, though, it would've been filled in there. Stephen A would've been like this to my face, like, you know what I mean?

• 52:59Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  But, um, yeah, nah, we wasn't losing that one, though.

• 53:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, that's, I read that, too, man. I thought it was funny because Stephen A was like, he like the Reaper in some ways, you know what I mean? Like, if it's going bad, he'll pop up.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 53:13Ryan Clark?

  He'll pop up. And he has created this incredible monster. But, man, we appreciate you, man. Thank you for your openness. I expected that it would be that. It was even more than what I expected coming in, man. And I just appreciate you, first off, for sharing your story. But also, it's great that we get to see the success part of it, too. You get to see the adversity, but you also get to see the perseverance. And I think that's what we love about this show. It's why it's the Pivot. Fred missed his question, I can't believe it.

• 53:43Fred Taylor?

  Cause he, I thought he said it earlier. And he said it was a pivotal moment in my life, and...

• 53:49Ryan Clark?

  He's just, he on TV now, he know how to use the right word.

• 53:52Fred Taylor?

  You know, so, I let it pass.

• 53:54Ryan Clark?

  He know how to use the right word.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Honestly, I wish I had that much credibility to me, but that was an accident. I'm not gonna lie. I wish I had that preparation in the bag, but that was an accident.

• 54:03Ryan Clark?

  Nah, man, thank you so much, bro. We appreciate you, man.

• 54:05Fred Taylor?

  Thank you, for sure.

• 54:06Ryan Clark?

  Yes, sir. Yeah, you know, cause we always get that, whenever somebody says Pivot or Pilgrim, we're like, okay. There we go.

• 54:12Speaker 05

  Hold up. Limitless, niggas tell me I'm pinning it. I find the heat, the witness it. Got my people feeling militant. Way I'm finna get me up. On the mission, got me up. Knowing me, I got the key. Only vision, I can trust. Trust. Limitless, niggas tell me I'm pinning it. I find the heat, the witness it. Got my people feeling militant. Way I'm finna get me up. On the mission, got me up.

• 54:39Speaker 06

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time.

• 54:44Speaker 07

  We go V.

• 54:47Speaker 06

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