Sundar Pichai on managing Google through the pandemic

Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel and executive editor Dieter Bohn interview Alphabet and Google CEO Sundar Pichai. Pichai disusses Google’s COVID-19 response: the way the company is handling the pandemic and how he’s working with Tim Cook from Apple on exposure tracking. They also talked about how he is running one of the biggest companies in the world remotely and how the company is handling employees working from home Of course they talk about their products and services: the future of the Pixel, competing with companies like Apple and Samsung, and RCS messaging. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:00Nilay Patel?

  Hey, everybody. Neil I from The Vergecast. Big interview show this week. Dieter and I sat down with Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google. This was a jam-packed conversation. We talked about how the COVID-19 crisis is affecting every part of Google, from working with the government, to changing consumer behavior across its apps and services, to battling conspiracies and misinformation on YouTube and search, to how Sundar is managing the company remotely as everyone works from home. We also got into how Sundar and Tim Cook discussed launching their exposure notification tracking system that's coming to iOS and Android. And you know I asked about that testing website. Of course, we also talked about Google's products, the future of the Pixel line, competing with companies like Apple and Samsung, and Dieter's favorite, RCS messaging. To be honest, we probably talked about messaging too much.

• 1:45Nilay Patel?

  There's a lot to take in over the next hour, but one thing I want you to pay attention to that really stuck out to me is Google's scale is so big, the company is so big, that all of Sundar's answers are really about frameworks. They're about structuring the problem so Google's teams can solve them. It's just the scale at which he has to think and the scale at which he organizes all the challenges that face Google. It's not super obvious, but once you notice it, it's definitely there. Check it out. Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google.

• 2:12Nilay Patel?

  Sundar Pichai, you're the CEO of Google. Welcome to the Vergecast.

• 2:15Speaker 06

  Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 2:17Nilay Patel?

  Dieter Bohn is joining me, of course. Hi, Dieter. Hey, how's it going?

• 2:20Nilay Patel?

  So Sundar, you know, Google isn't doing I O this year. I O is usually a time when Dieter and I get to spend a bunch of time with you for a variety of reasons. It's not happening. So thank you for joining us. There's a lot of stuff to talk about. There's three things I really want to talk about. One, how Google is handling the pandemic. Two, how your business is being impacted. And three, you know, I talk to every CEO about how they manage their time. I'm confident that managing a company the size of Google remotely has changed that. So I want to talk about that stuff. But there were two big stories about Google that are interesting to us and are important. I just want to ask two questions about that right away. The first was, there's a big NBC piece from April Glazer this week suggesting that your diversity efforts have been wound down. The company is not even using the word diversity internally anymore.

• 3:05Nilay Patel?

  Is that true?

• 3:06Speaker 06

  We are. I mean, diversity is a foundational value for us, given, you know, given the scale at which we build products and the fact we do it globally for our users, you know, we are deeply committed to having that representation in our workforce. I think we were one of the earliest companies to publish transparency reports, and we have shared that ever since. And we just released our recent annual diversity report. And, you know, we have made modest progress in critical areas and long ways to go. But it is really important, you know, what, what we are doing in the company is constantly at our scale. We look at efforts, see what works, what we can scale up better. All I can say is we probably have more resources invested in diversity now than at any point in our history as a company.

• 3:57Speaker 06

  So in terms of the scale and the resources we put in.

• 4:02Nilay Patel?

  The other part of that report, which is interesting to talk about, because we hear about it in regards to Facebook a lot, and I don't think we've ever really asked anybody at Google about it, the idea that the criticism from the sort of conservative side of the aisle is something you're more responsive to with these initiatives, with how you're running a company. Is that something you think about in terms of who's criticizing you from where?

• 4:24Speaker 06

  Look, our diversity efforts, we don't bring any such lens to it. I mean, we are, you know, if you look at, you know, there are many areas where we are still as an industry and as a company dramatically underrepresented. And, you know, so there's a long way for us to go and we've just not had that consideration. I think independently, just within the company, you know, we have definitely made efforts to make sure, you know, the company can accommodate viewpoints and no one feels they're not part of the company regardless of their political viewpoints amongst other things too, but that's about it. But I think these are two independent things.

• 5:02Speaker 07

  So the other big story that hit yesterday from the day we were recording was over at the information about Mario Carroz and Mark Lavoie sort of quietly leaving the division and the Pixel sales numbers maybe not being super great. Is the Pixel business sort of living up to where you hoped it would be right now?

• 5:22Speaker 06

  You know, overall, maybe I'll comment on the hardware and then talk about Pixel too. You know, it's been, you know, a few years, last couple of years have been a kind of a major integration phase for us because we've combined, you know, our Google hardware efforts with NAST, we absorbed the mobile division of HTC and so it's been, it's been a lot of stitching together and we have, you know, wide product portfolio too. So it's definitely been a building phase. Super committed to it for the long run, you know, hardware, you know, is hard and, you know, it definitely has components of it which take real time to get it right, you

• 6:04Speaker 06

  know, thinking about underlying silicon or display or camera or any of those stacks. And so we are definitely investing in it with that timeline. And we have had, you know, I think we've made a lot of progress. Pixel 3A last year was one of our highest NPS rated products ever that we had launched and, you know, and definitely even benchmarked outside. So to me, it's a clear indication we have made a lot of progress too. We just launched Pixel Buds. This week, which you guys covered, thank you. You know, to, you know, a good reception and our Nest Home and Nest Home products are definitely doing well.

• 6:45Speaker 06

  And so, you know, we take a long term view, you know, and we are not in a just for phones alone. We kind of have a vision of where computing needs to go. And I think it's really hard to drive that vision without doing hardware, software and services together. You have to think of the intersection of intersection of it. So I see, I see a lot of value in thinking about it and doing it that way. We are definitely going to have hiccups. We are a nascent player in a, in a really complex space. And so not everything is going to be smooth. But, you know, am I excited about our portfolio for later this year?

• 7:25Speaker 06

  Or, you know, or especially if I take a longer term view, because some of the deeper efforts we are putting in will take three to four years to actually play out. And, and when they come in, I think I'm excited about how they will shape, shape where we are going as well.

• 7:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, you know, we've, I've asked you sort of how, how serious are you about hardware? I feel like every year since you, you created the division. We always sort of, sort of like with self-driving cars look at, well, it'll be a five-year timeframe. It'll be a five-year timeframe. That, that five-year timeframe sort of just always seems to, it always seems to be five years out. So when you say you're in it for the, the long term, is that, is that still sort of even today, the timeframe that you're thinking of for it? Really bringing back like really serious results in terms of big sales numbers or big influence in the market? Or are you looking for something more immediate?

• 8:13Speaker 06

  No, we think about our hardware efforts, obviously, in the context of our overall computing efforts and, you know, and in addition to what our ecosystem is doing. So we take that into account. I do think it's important we build a sustainable business financially too. If we, because I look at the level of investment, you know, hardware needs and, and both in terms of all the technology R and D you need to do, the kind of supply chain you need to develop, as well as the go-to-market investments you need. So it's a deep, deep investment. So to do it well, I think you have to do it with a clear financial sustainability goal. And, you know, I think so that's important. So for me, three reasons. One is to drive computing forward. The second is we really guide our ecosystem, you know, and the best way I can think of is.

• 8:58Speaker 06

  Pretty much everything we have done well. You can go all the way back in Android's early days. You know, Samsung Galaxy Nexus, which we worked together was a pivotal phone. Nexus 7 in the tablet world. I can point to Chromebooks all along. We did our original hardware to kind of bootstrap it. And I look at areas maybe where we haven't done, open-ended area. So maybe watch is a good example where, you know, we haven't. And then you can see it's tough to guide, guide an ecosystem to what your vision of it is. Just building the underlying platform. So I think that's the second reason. And third is to really build a sustainable hardware business. So all, you know, I think all of it are important and that's how I think about it.

• 9:43Speaker 06

  And I'm excited, you know, Rick and team, working closely with Hiroshi and team. You know, they have that long-term view and, you know, it's, it's, so we are pretty committed to it.

• 9:52Speaker 07

  So you, you're the CEO of Alphabet now in addition to Google. I mean, how, how much of your time do you actually even get to devote to hardware? Are you looking at prototypes? Is it, is it just sort of a one meeting in a week? Or is it a larger part of your time?

• 10:06Speaker 06

  It's just a coincidence, I think. You know, I spent, I spent my morning with the team today, today, talking about our portfolio for next year.

• 10:15Speaker 07

  Anything you want to tell us?

• 10:19Speaker 06

  You know, you guys are going to figure it out anyway.

• 10:23Speaker 06

  So, no, but you know, it's a good question. You know, I do, I do have, you know, it is really the teams underneath. You know, Rick and Hiroshi drive these efforts and, you know, but I, you know, I try to spend time on the, you know, in a more step back way on some of the bigger things they are doing over time. And, and, and, you know, those few important moments, I think.

• 10:45Speaker 07

  Dino was pointing out, he just reviewed the Galaxy A51.

• 10:48Nilay Patel?

  That's right.

• 10:49Speaker 07

  It's a cheap phone. He gave it a seven.

• 10:51Speaker 06

  I saw the intro to the video where you said, this phone sells more than the Galaxy. I actually watched the video, so.

• 10:56Speaker 07

  Oh, thanks.

• 10:57Nilay Patel?

  There you go.

• 10:57Speaker 07

  And it actually was the top-selling phone last quarter worldwide, yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 06

  I think I learned it from watching your video, which is, which is kind of interesting. Maybe I should have known that, but yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 07

  Well, so I mean, that's, that's the question here. The, when we think about your phones coming out, we think about, are you competitive with the flagship Samsung devices? We think, are you competitive with the iPhones?

• 11:17Nilay Patel?

  But the the bulk of the market is down there is at 399, 499. Is that where you want to be? Or do you want to go make a big flagship phone and and take share away from the top of the market?

• 11:29Speaker 06

  You know, I think, you know, we definitely, you know, the the area where we have demonstrated the strongest value proposition, that's why I gave the 3A example, you know, you know, it's where we clearly have demonstrated it. But having said that, you know, we, you know, are high end. And if you want to drive computing forward, that high end is where you're going to also keep moving the needle. And, you know, it's it's it's where we are putting a lot of our effort into. So you will continue to see us, you know, invest in both, you know, both both ends of the spectrum. And, you know, we care all the way, obviously, working with our ecosystem to, you know, entry level devices and, you know, I'm deeply passionate about that. But definitely the high end is something where, you know, we're putting a lot of effort

• 12:14Speaker 06

  in. But that's where I think some of the underlying investments, you know, pay, you know, it's kind of accumulates over time because, you know, it takes two to three years to do some of the deeper investments you need to do it really well.

• 12:27Nilay Patel?

  Are you seeing, especially now with everyone at home, are you seeing big changes in consumer behavior in terms of buying hardware? Or is everyone going out and buying buying Nest cameras or they feel like they don't need them because they're at home anyway? Anything changing for you there?

• 12:40Speaker 06

  You know, on the, you know, obviously, you know, on the software side, you know, you know, we have clearly seen impact in terms of usage across several of our products. Some products have been negatively affected too, you know, and so, you know, but we can clearly measure it. Hardware is is a bit more complex because really gated by the supply chain got affected for different products in different ways. And and demand has definitely been affected too. Some of it is to do with, you know, lack of retail working well and all that stuff. So, you know, I think it will, it is tough to exactly forecast what demand will come back, how will it affect, affect, you know, affect it. So for me, it feels too early to tell.

• 13:23Nilay Patel?

  Well, let's let's skip into sort of the broader business of Google, how it's going. Dieter asked that question about consumer behavior. I just have this guess, I'm going to ask you, is Maps usage way down?

• 13:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you alone not using it is probably contributing. No, I'm just kidding. But no, it did, you know, it did have a significant, you know, directly, obviously, as people were in driving around, you clearly saw an impact. Interesting to me was maybe over the last two to three weeks, we definitely see users coming back to it, looking for local information. And, and so definitely, we see activity back around, people trying to find services, what's around, what's open. People are exploring and discovering local services again. So, you know, and so there is this clear inflection, but, you know, not clear what that fully means, but that's where it is.

• 14:18Nilay Patel?

  And then, and your broader business, obviously, Google makes the bulk of its revenue in advertising. We have felt the effects of the advertising market changing. The whole world has felt the effects of the advertising market changing. How are you seeing those effects hit Google? What are you doing to manage against them?

• 14:34Speaker 06

  You know, you know, as I spoke about it in the earnings call, you know, we clearly, you know, compared to Jan and Feb, we clearly saw the impact in, in, in, in March. And, you know, so for sure, Google is not immune to the global economy. In some ways, it's representative across all sectors. So clearly, as entire sectors have been affected, you know, travel being a, you know, particularly severe example of it, we have definitely felt that across the board. What's interesting for us, it's historically been true compared to past cycles, to search is something which is, you know, very highly ROI driven, performance oriented.

• 15:17Speaker 06

  And so advertisers adapt, they pull back quickly. We see demand shifts, people capitalizing on it. So, you know, maybe people, if, you know, you see activity in office furniture instantly, right? And so

• 15:30Nilay Patel?

  Right.

• 15:30Speaker 06

  You can kind of see the economy adapt in real time. And so it's fascinating to see it that way. But, you know, for sure, it's definitely impacted our business.

• 15:40Nilay Patel?

  So I know you, in your earnings call, you sort of hinted that, you know, this wasn't going to turn around for you right away next quarter. We're in, we're in for a tough time for a while, but.

• 15:50Speaker 07

  Coming out of this in, I don't know, however long it takes, a year or two, however long, do you think that the ad market is going to look substantially similar to what it looked like a year ago? Or are you sort of thinking that like things are going to fundamentally change in your ad business or in your business generally in a way that you're able to look at now? Or is it just way too early to tell, it's too hard to forecast? That's where we're at, where we're at. We're just, you know, we're not really sure what things are going to look like. I'm curious how you see it.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, it's the question which is on a lot of our minds. What are the trends you're seeing which will kind of revert back to the mean? And, you know, what is it that is kind of here to stay and stay? Will travel ever return to what it was before? And so on. You know, I tend to think, you know, obviously tough to predict with the nature of the virus, how long it'll be. You know, we generally assume it'll be, the effects will be there for a while and, you know, and we act, you know, I think it's the right way to think about it. As a company, you know, we assume that, you know, it's going to take a while to recover and, you know, and planning for it that way. But, you know,

• 17:01Speaker 06

  it's a bit, bit hard for me to say. I do think people, my human needs are pretty fundamental, I think, in terms of being social, wanting to meet people. You know, so I do think, like, personally, I can't wait to be back in a, I wish I could go watch a football game or, you know, something, you know, so.

• 17:20Speaker 07

  Cricket, come on.

• 17:22Speaker 06

  Cricket is true too, but, you know, you know, so, but that's a bit tougher for me to get to.

• 17:27Speaker 07

  Fair, fair.

• 17:27Speaker 06

  I didn't manage it last year. I'm glad I did. But, you know, so, I mean, I think about it that way. Would I like to go to a music concert or so? The answer is yes. And, you know, so I think the innate human need is there. But I think it'll be a while before we get back to it. So I expect it to be kind of a slow, steady recovery.

• 17:48Speaker 07

  How are you thinking about the general push to reopen, right? Google, you've said people are going to work from home through 2020. What are you thinking about for Google? And then broadly, how do you?

• 17:58Nilay Patel?

  How are you thinking about this push to reopen, particularly in the United States?

• 18:02Speaker 06

  You know, early on, I felt, you know, we were one of the first to go to work from home, partly because I think it, you know, we made sense for the health and safety of our employees. I felt, given a lot of our work could be done from home, it made sense for us to contribute to social distancing. Clearly, the needs vary widely across different groups. So, we talked about hardware earlier, you know, definitely having access to testing equipment, labs, you know, it's really important, right? You can't test whether something works in 5G unless you can actually be in that testing environment, right? And so, so varies widely across teams.

• 18:43Speaker 06

  And we are going to be conservative on the return back for the broad company. When the local ordinance allows, I think, you know, we'll probably start with trying to get, you know, 10 to 15% of the company back. So prioritizing people who actually, you know, kind of need to be there. And that way, we can really have a de-densified environment, have a lot of safety procedures in place. And just because we are talking about 10 to 15% capacity, doesn't mean that many people we can rotate and actually get more people in once or twice a week. And you have people in, you know, two different buckets, right? There are people who really want to come back and, you know, and, you know, and they miss it.

• 19:25Speaker 06

  And especially at Google, I think, for 20 years, we have genuinely invested in our physical spaces and the culture it creates with a view towards like, you know, having people work well together. And so I think there are people who miss that part of the experience, depending on what your personal situation is. And then there are people on the other set of the spectrum who would, you know, who want to be conservative. And so we are trying to make that play out. But, you know, I expect by the end of the year, we'd be at, you know, 20 to 30% capacity, which may still mean we are able to get, you know, 60% of our employees once a week in or something like that. And so that's what we mean where a vast majority of employees, we think, will likely work from home through the end of the year.

• 20:10Speaker 06

  But it's a very fluid situation. If things, of course, look better, we will adapt to it. You know, we want to be flexible, you know, trying to really understand what works, what doesn't work in this.

• 20:21Nilay Patel?

  Are you thinking longer term in terms of number of people that might work from home or work remotely? I know Twitter just announced forever you can you can work from home for as long as you want. Are you thinking in that way too? Or are you gonna wait and see how things play out?

• 20:34Speaker 06

  You know, in some ways, I mean, it's, it's, it's enough. I'm, I want to be driven by data here. And so I'm kind of want to, you know, I viewed as a research phase and see where the data leads this. So in some ways, I'm glad Twitter is running a, you know, kind of one end of the spectrum experiment. So thanks, Jack. And so it's good to see that, you know, that that end of the spectrum. We are definitely look, productivity is down in certain parts. And what is not clear to me is, in the first two months, most of the people are already on projects in which they kind of know what they need to do. But you know, the next phase which will kick in is where, let's say, you're designing next year's products and you know, you're in a brainstorming phase, things are more

• 21:18Speaker 06

  unstructured. How does that collaboration actually work? You know, that's a bit hard to understand and do. So we are trying to understand what works well and what doesn't. I'm going to be, you know, we're probably going to be conservative in it. We want to make sure things work well. But coming out of it all, you know, do we all learn and have more flexibility in how we think about this? I think so. Yeah, that's how I would I would bet towards.

• 21:43Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna take this moment to somehow transition and ask you about messaging strategy. I'm gonna figure it out.

• 21:48Speaker 06

  How can I do a verge podcast without discussing a lot of our

• 21:53Nilay Patel?

  Pop quiz, hotshot, name all the products.

• 21:55Speaker 06

  Our entire complexity in messaging is to make sure verge has plenty of material to work with.

• 22:00Nilay Patel?

  Every morning I come in and I say, Casey and Dieter, let's, let's write them all down. Yeah, but this is, Google has historically been good at dog fooding and using its own products. Obviously, this is a moment to use these products in a way that maybe had never been stressed before. You added gallery view to meat. We're using meat right now. That seems like a button that should have been there. And suddenly everybody realized it's there and like snap, it's there. But there are some bigger competitors or some more consumer focused companies that are succeeding like Zoom. Is this a moment of clarity for you to say, we actually have to win this? We know what we need to do because we're using our own products as much as we are.

• 22:37Speaker 06

  You know, it's definitely an important moment. You know, we had, you know, we, you know, we had, you know, we, we brought Javier in a few months ago before all this. With a, you know, with a clear view, you know, so we had a clear sense of where we wanted to go. So some of the efforts were clearly underway. And in some ways, when, when COVID hit, we weren't fully done with all the changes we had wanted to make. And so we got, I think the irony of the Google Meet team working remotely to make and iterate the product to get it to where they wanted it to be. You know, was, was very interesting to see. And, and one of Javier has a very, very long commute.

• 23:18Speaker 06

  And one of his biggest concerns was commute and he was joining and he's doing it all virtually now. But, you know, it is an important moment. You know, many schools, many organizations already use Google Meet. And, you know, so we are doubling down. We obviously, COVID has blurred the lines between consumer and enterprise. And people are using products in all kinds of contexts. And so definitely, you know, we are using it as an opportunity to make Google Meet and Google Chat and scale it up and make it more available. And, and obviously, we are a service provider. We are a platform too, hence RCS and all the work we are doing. RCS is where we are like United Nations.

• 24:02Speaker 06

  We try to herd a bunch of people. And, you know, and so it's making better progress than it appears because it's kind of like you're collecting so many people together on it. And, you know, as people sign up, you will see more and more momentum. So all of that is coming together well, I think. And I'm glad, you know, we've realigned it. Everything with Javier and he works both with our cloud team with Thomas and our platforms team with Hiroshi and so I think I think we'll get to the right place. I'm very excited.

• 24:32Speaker 07

  For listeners who aren't familiar with Javier, Javier Soltero, he runs G Suite and he also has now taken over just more of the communications products and so he's working on both the sort of cloud side and the Hiroshi side, basically. And actually, I mean, you brought up RCS, you know, I'm gonna ask- Throw red meat to Dieter right here.

• 24:53Speaker 06

  This was a rare moment where I am like, because I know Dieter wants to talk about it, so I had to go there.

• 24:59Speaker 07

  Let me, let me, let me zag a little bit. One of the really interesting things from talking to Javier and Hiroshi actually was, you know, I complained that, oh, there's, there's too many messaging products. I can't, I can't really tell what's for what. And they brought up this point that you just made about sort of the enterprise and consumer getting a little bit closer together and also pointing out that it's okay for there to be different products for different contexts. And so, you know, I'm wondering, in an age when Facebook is saying, we are going to integrate all of our messaging products and we're going to put everything under, under a full end and encryption, do you think that Google having multiple products and sort of multiple contexts is still the way to go? Or do you think there needs to be more integration there?

• 25:41Speaker 06

  I mean, we definitely want to have a more integrated, simplified view, but in all scenarios I see our platform offering, right? And, you know, Android is open as part of the open platform stack. I think you need a open, standard spaced messaging framework and we have to evolve that from its SMS days and that's RCS for me. And, you know, and obviously, you know, we'll continue doing that in all scenario because I think, you know, that's part of building that open stack. I don't see that changing. But in terms of our services, you know, I want it to be as simplified for people as possible. And, you know, I think we've made great strides compared to where we were with Google Meet and Chat. Of course, we have Duo. We had intended Duo for consumers and-

• 26:26Speaker 06

  Google Meet and Chat for businesses effectively, but the lines have blurred and, you know, and so they share a lot of common underlying technology. They both built on WebRTC and, you know, and so there's a lot of common work and given it's common teams, hopefully we can iterate and, but some flexibility, I think it's, it's fine here.

• 26:46Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. When you talk about RCS is the UN, there's a lot of progress, but you can't see it, which by the way is like a perfect analogy for the UN. You know, we started out by talking about phones. One of the reasons Apple's phones are so sticky is they have a great messaging product. Do you think that that is connected? You need a great sticky messaging product to move people over?

• 27:05Speaker 06

  You know, let me give a user answer and a technical answer too. You know, from a user standpoint, you know, people, any Android phone you get up, you always want a, you know, a phone number based, you know, messaging product which you're going to create. And, you know, you want something which comes to the platform. And, and so, you know, and we're trying to align that and that integration, that working, I think is critical. And, and so, and so I do feel it's an important part and where Android has been behind. And so, you know, I think it's, it's important there. Technically, different OEMs and different carriers having different RCS implementation was one of the biggest causes of fragmentation

• 27:46Speaker 06

  in Android. You know, it caused real pain and, and, you know, so simplifying that is a tremendous multiplier in terms of productivity and efficiency and simplicity. You know, and so for both reasons, I think it's important to, for us to invest and get it right.

• 28:07Speaker 00

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• 29:07Nilay Patel?

  All right, so we lured you here by saying we were going to talk about the pandemic. We've mostly talked about messaging. I want to make sure we talk about the pandemic. What a surprise. I feel like your team prepped you well. But I do want to talk about that. And you had to know this question was coming. I keep track every week of when Trump and his team held up the flow chart and said, you know, some X thousand Google engineers are working on it. Just walk me through that day. Did you expect that to come the next day? Trump said someone from Google had called and apologized to him. Did that happen? Just what was that set of days like?

• 29:42Speaker 06

  You know, very early on through COVID, you know, we decided as a company, we should, you know, do everything where, you know, areas where our expertise could help. And, you know, and so we had a wide set of efforts. I think there were two efforts, and we were in touch with the coronavirus task force. And there were two efforts, one as both in terms of what Google can do to provide more information. And Verily was working on a way to, you know, develop wide-scale testing, particularly with an emphasis on drive-through testing with a focus on first responders. And so we were in touch on both efforts and, you know, and so that's what it was.

• 30:21Speaker 06

  And, you know, today, I think Verily right now is in 86 sites across 13 states. And, you know, and that's what that effort was. And, you know, and it's obviously taken more time than, you know, most of us expected to get there. But there were real constraints along the way. But, you know, I think we have made a lot of progress. You know, my view on this is at a time of a global pandemic, we want to do everything we can to help the US government succeed. And so, you know, we are trying to play our role in it.

• 30:52Nilay Patel?

  I'm just going to ask you directly. Did you call President Trump and apologize?

• 30:56Speaker 06

  You know, my discussions were with the, you know, task force and so that's, that's who I was talking to.

• 31:02Nilay Patel?

  Okay. Yeah, I mean, because it's quite a quote and I, it just struck me at that time that the distinction between Google and Verily was not being well made. And so I, I think my follow-up here is, is that clearer now? Is it Verily that's doing, because you're the CEO of Alphabet. Verily is under Alphabet. You're also the head of Google, which is theoretically next to it.

• 31:23Speaker 06

  I think we were communicating across, um, you know, two areas. We were communicating both, you know. I, I do feel like, you know, the onus is on us as a company to clarify and be clear in terms of how we are communicating. And, you know, I don't think we got everything right uh, in terms of uh, communicating across the two groups which were talking back and forth. And so, you know, so I just wanted to make sure we were clear uh, in terms of how we were communicating.

• 31:49Nilay Patel?

  So what, what now is the relationship between Verily and Google? Is, are, are you still volunteers working on the Verily project?

• 31:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we definitely, you know, it's, you know, because they're both under Alphabet, you know, I would, I would view it as a, you know, areas where we help. So sometimes, you know, Google is doing work on healthcare, Verily is doing work on healthcare. If, you know, we share resources where we need to, uh, sometimes there could be a AI breakthrough from Google, which is what Verily uses to commercialize and, but, you know, at a, at a technical level, we can exchange ideas. At a regulatory level, we work together to have, uh, you know, the compliance process and, you know, all the framework we built in. Uh, but I'm, I'm excited at the uh, progress Verily is making as well.

• 32:33Nilay Patel?

  Do you find that separation as like, you know, sort of two separate companies under one umbrella, it's still useful? Or has your thinking changed about, you know, the distinction between Alphabet company Verily and Alphabet company Google?

• 32:46Speaker 06

  You know, I mean, there are, I mean, it's a good question. There are many areas where I find the distinction to actually, uh, you know, help because, you know, when you take something like Waymo and, you know, timeframe it needs to operate in, dealing with a very different set of issues than, you know, building a typical internet product. Uh, you know, I, I like the fact that there is structural separation, that the, that the Google management team doesn't have to sit and think through that breadth and they can, they can be more focused. And allows us to play these different bets with the different characteristics they would need and different time horizons and, and so on. So I think. To me Alphabet creates that flexibility. And the underlying commonality across all of Alphabet is we think it has to be a deeper

• 33:30Speaker 06

  technology play, you know, something based on some foundational technology to solve something. That's the underlying commonality and, you know, and Google is broadly focused on the internet space and, you know, if it is distinctly different from that and, you know, allows us to still apply technology, maybe share common things like AI and innovation or data centers and innovation, but, you know, can have the right structure, right incentives, right approach to go tackle that that problem. And so I think it's been it's been really helpful to have that flexibility. You know, I think I would expect sometime we may look at something and say, hey, it's in Google, maybe it makes sense to be more in Alphabet or vice versa.

• 34:14Speaker 06

  And it doesn't mean, you know, that we precisely, we created that structure to create that flexibility and, you know, that's what that's what, you know, sometimes we end up, you know, Nest is a good example of, you know, it made more sense that it's aligned closer with the hardware team and obviously there's convergence there. So that's what taught us to align it and so on.

• 34:33Nilay Patel?

  So there's a couple kind of big health initiatives inside the Alphabet umbrella. Verily is one of them. This is a moment, I think, for biotech, for health sciences. Would you say Verily is entirely now focused on COVID and the pandemic or is it one of many things it's doing?

• 34:51Speaker 06

  It's one of many things, you know, they definitely feel, you know, there are a lot of folks there who are, you know, doctors and, you know, healthcare people. And so by, you know, by obviously, you know, by calling, they feel motivated to help at a moment like that. And, and, you know, and so there is a lot of focus, but, you know, they are focused on, you know, areas like diabetes, so longer term disease, I mean, so they're clearly focused on other aspects of healthcare as well and they'll continue doing that. And so those are big developer efforts already underway.

• 35:22Nilay Patel?

  Google's doing a bunch of other stuff around the coronavirus and COVID-19. What are what are some of those other things outside of the the website, which, you know?

• 35:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, it is, you know, it's a it's a big part, you know, you know, by now, I would say. You know, we've we've committed over a billion dollars in various ways, be it grants to public health organizations, add credits to small, medium businesses, and then working in each country through the official agencies, direct loan programs to small, small, medium businesses as well. We have undertaken efforts on PPE. There's a deep work we have done on ventilators out of Rick's team. And, you know, obviously, our support for schools through products like meat, we have provided Chromebooks access.

• 36:12Speaker 06

  And so it spans a wide variety of effort and, and obviously, you know,

• 36:19Speaker 06

  exposure notification, you know, and the work in contact tracing has been a big effort jointly with Apple as well.

• 36:26Nilay Patel?

  So I definitely wanted to ask about that. It is not often that Google and Apple collaborate at this level. How did that come about? What was your conversation with Tim Cook like? How is it, how's it going in terms of the two companies working together?

• 36:39Speaker 06

  No, it's, it's, it's been, you know, a really terrific effort. You know, it started, I think both of us saw the problem and saw the opportunity to do something, and the teams had started working on it. And at the right point, you realize, you know, in this, in this problem, particularly to do it well, we saw some of the earlier app efforts actually struggling to work well. And so we realized as platform providers, you know, we really want to make it easy and to make it work at scale, obviously with user consent and privacy protection. And the teams started talking, they saw an opportunity to do it better. You know, so Tim and I connected and, you know, we talked and we said,

• 37:20Speaker 06

  let's announce it jointly and, you know, that, that helps clarify that we are going to approach it consistently. And so, you know, for public health organizations planning, you know, we wanted to give a clear commitment and, and a framework that they can actually invest, and we are going to support it as a platform. And, you know, since we have done, we, we are, you know, we continue. You know, the teams talk, you know, almost, I would say, you know, multiple times a week across the two companies. And we are in conversations with public health organizations around the world. And you will see, and there are large countries where they are fully developing a service on top of it.

• 38:04Speaker 06

  And you know, and our goal here is to have one more toolkit in, in, you know, all the, all the efforts you need to do to manage, manage COVID. We wanted to make sure we created the option value and give, add one more, you know, step in that toolkit.

• 38:20Speaker 07

  I want to provide a window. I think most people don't get to see people in positions like yours make decisions. When you're on the phone with Tim Cook, what was, what was a problem that needed the two of you to solve or decision that it needed the two of you to make on a project like this?

• 38:35Speaker 06

  You know, in, you know, maybe one example I would give, you know, and when Tim and I talked, you know, it was mainly actually deciding to just actually go public and lay it all out. And earlier than both companies would normally do in a process like this. You know, we would have probably normally waited to develop, hash out more issues fully. But we both realized, given the public nature of it, given the responsible conversation you need to have with, you know, societies, many societal institutions as part of it. It was important that we put it out and shared details and engaged in a conversation. So we basically made the decision, I think the team said, maybe differing timelines on when, when they should be announced.

• 39:18Speaker 06

  And so we talked through and we decided to announce it sooner rather than later.

• 39:22Speaker 07

  So you and I have talked previously about Google's responsibility when it comes to AI and making sure AI was ethical. With this, you're in the middle of a pandemic, you're in the middle of a whole bunch of different countries with their own health organizations. How do you think about your responsibility as the CEO of Google in this pandemic? Because from a certain perspective, it like rises to like a, like a governmental level of a social contract with users, or you know, you could, you could say, no, no, we're just a tech company. So how do you see that?

• 39:52Speaker 06

  I mean, it's a good question. You know, I mean, this is definitely, you know, it's a one in a hundred year kind of issue we are dealing with. So, you know, it's important, you know, I want to do everything we can, always be aware that we are a company, you know, private company, working through a, you know, extraordinarily public moment. We clearly have products which people come and rely on. And so doing that well, both in terms of providing, you know, high quality information and getting it right, you know, trumps, you know, everything, you know, as we, as we handle that. And that is the biggest way by which we can, we can do well. And beyond that, you know, supporting our employees, supporting the communities we

• 40:36Speaker 06

  operate in, all that go hand in hand. And then there are longer term efforts where, because we have deep technological underpinnings, we can bring that technology to bear to support either healthcare organizations and so on. So but that's the way I think about it. I think it's an important moment where the big companies need to step up. But I think you have to do it in a construct in which you realize you're a private company and you're one small part of, you know, a big value chain to solve this.

• 41:03Nilay Patel?

  So that's an interesting way of putting it because at the same time, some of the problems you're solving are new, right? We're going to use the Bluetooth radios and everybody's cell phone to do exposure notification. I think historically, that's a new idea. People have had that before. It's obviously got a bunch of new problems to solve. On the flip side, there are some very old problems to solve here. Are people getting reliable information? Can they trust their leaders? Can they trust the companies that they rely on? Google obviously provides a lot of information in search. They provide a lot of information in YouTube. There have been some massive coordinated disinformation campaigns on both of those platforms. You sort of next to what you're saying, Facebook just recently announced

• 41:47Nilay Patel?

  what amounts to like a worldwide Supreme Court for free speech on its platform. Are you thinking you need to do something at that scale to manage the very old problems of reliable information on your platforms?

• 42:00Speaker 06

  You know, I mean, it's the foundation of what our company is built on. You know, search was designed to, you know, across the web to surface the highest quality information. So it's something we've thought about for a long time. You know, obviously, the challenges have gotten more complex and harder for sure. And so I think, you know, we have evolved our approaches too. So I'm following what everybody is doing with a lot of interest here. So for example, in YouTube, I would say over the past, maybe, you know, four years, we have definitely for categories of information relied on external experts, right? And, you know, we partner, for example, on violent extremism, we partner with counter

• 42:42Speaker 06

  extremism organizations, right? And so we tap their expertise to help shape our policies, right? And as we evolved our hate and harassment policies last year, we consulted with many organizations, we took inputs. So I think relying on deep experts, other nonprofit institutions, governmental expertise, you know, is a natural way we want to approach our work. And so I think, to me, whether you set up an oversight board, I will look to see what the learnings from it are and definitely going to study that. I think it's important to understand that. I think we are going to

• 43:22Speaker 06

  be flexible. If we find something works, we will be very open to adopting it. But we ourselves, I think, directionally have really worked hard to bring outside input in terms of policy definition and so on. And so that's how we generally think about it, too.

• 43:41Nilay Patel?

  All right. Well, I know we only have a few minutes left with you. So I want to just ask about how you are managing Google. Like, Verchassal listeners know, I tend to end all these interviews by saying, how do you manage your time? And that question, it used to have one kind of very clear set of answers. Now, now it's all different. So just you, a CEO of Google, you're obviously managing a giant company remotely, you're dealing with governments, you're dealing with your own employees, you're dealing with this stuff. How are you currently just managing your time operating the company?

• 44:10Speaker 06

  You know, I think, I've tried to have two parallel tracks. One is explicitly, you know, there's a definite focus on COVID response. And so, you know, I do, I'm spending a significant chunk of my time on something like that, which, you know, I wasn't spending, you know, two months ago. But also making sure the company operationally is focused on continuing to pursue all the efforts they are doing and being able to compartmentalize and do that, too. And so not, you know, I'm making sure that our meetings, which just have a real sense of normalcy. And that's why I gave the example of the earlier morning meeting today when I was reviewing our, you know, product plan for next year, you know, is just a normal meeting, which I would have done. And so being able to do-

• 44:54Nilay Patel?

  What surprised you in that meeting?

• 44:58Speaker 06

  You know, I would say, you know, it's just, timelines are hard to plan around. So that's, you know, literally, you know, your disruptions are, you know, kind of concerning. So when you plan timelines and they are, they're for sure hard. It's not a surprise. It's what was different about the meeting. But, you know.

• 45:19Nilay Patel?

  I almost got you.

• 45:20Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, I almost, but yeah, that's why I'm laughing.

• 45:24Speaker 06

  Can you imagine if I showed back to the teams and say, like, you know, they're like, you know, so I'm glad I didn't do anything.

• 45:30Nilay Patel?

  I mean, I can't imagine it. It'd be great. So you're having meetings on sort of a normal cadence with a sense of normalcy. What has shifted for you in how you're managing your time?

• 45:39Speaker 06

  I mean, it's tougher to, you know, it all feels, I mean, the art of doing this and, you know, I'm actually talking to others who have worked from home before and, you know, and actually the line I heard was, uh, working from home is as much about not working from home too. And so, and, you know, I think that's been harder, right? You know, how do you kind of, uh, draw the boundaries? I miss transitions, you know, giving me a chance to drive and think about stuff and process and, you know, and so uh, on one hand, it's a bit more efficient because you can move across. Uh, you know, what we are doing right now might have taken a lot more time, maybe not as in a podcast, but you know, sometimes you are, uh, you know, you're going places, but I missed the transition.

• 46:22Speaker 06

  I missed that space to think quietly and, you know, and so for, for me, that's definitely something I need to progress, uh, better, but, you know, I'm managing my time. You know, I have a clear sense of these are the, you know, major areas in the company. I want to spend a percentage of my time I'm going to spend on it. And, you know, I actually look back at my calendar, uh, every three months to see whether I spent the time, my time on the things I wanted to spend. And you know, I've always done that and you know, and so any aberrations that come out, then you know, I step back and think, what can I do structurally to make sure I get back to how I want to spend my time. And so it's a constant iterative process. And sometimes you look back in horror and you realize you got it wrong and then you course correct. So that's how I think about it.

• 47:07Nilay Patel?

  So the classic question I ask is, when do you work? Because it's a question I'm very focused on. It sounds like you did a lot of your time working and thinking in those transitions. How are you building that time now? Or is that something you're just working on?

• 47:21Speaker 06

  You know, it's, it's a good question. You know, I'm trying to force block times on, on the calendar specifically to read and, you know, think. And so, you know, so I think it's hard to do, you know, but actually block the time and, you know, and do that. That's how I, I had the time to watch your Galaxy A50 video, right? And, you know, sometimes just trying to understand what's going on and, you know, spend time outside from. So I think carving out that thinking time is, is one tool I have. But, you know, drawing boundaries is something I'm working on as well. You know, definitely picking up hobbies, which I never thought I had before, but, you know, you know, made pizza last weekend

• 48:03Speaker 06

  from scratch, thanks to some YouTube cooking video. And so it turned out okay. And so things like that too helps.

• 48:10Nilay Patel?

  And then I guess my last question, I know we're out of time. I can see your guys both turned on their cameras to let me know that we're out of time. But as you look out over the course of this next year, over the course of the crisis unfolding, what are the leading indicators of change that you're looking at that maybe other people aren't looking at? Maybe that's specific to Google, maybe it's broader than that. But what are the signals that you see? You have access to a lot of signal. What are the signals you see that indicate change is coming one way or the other?

• 48:43Speaker 06

  You know, it's, it's, it's effectively, you know, use a pattern shifts, you know, trying to understand, is telemedicine a real thing? Does it sustain? Or, you know, is it just something people do? And people revert back to what they, how they do things. So, you know, following, looking at recovery patterns and seeing where you're actually seeing a difference, you know, long run differences, what, you know, we are trying to tease out and understand where we can. And you know, very interested in, you know, how does work culture shift? How does travel and meeting shift for the long run? And hence its impact on, you know, things which will do well because of that and things which will have to adapt. So shifts like that.

• 49:25Speaker 06

  Education is a big area where we are watching and, you know, and, uh, and definitely, you know, I know you've been passionate about rural broadband and connectivity and stuff. To me, you know, distance learning really identifies those gaps too. And so long run, you know, for us figuring out how through both connectivity and computing, we, we reach those things is, is a long run journey, I think, uh, you know, which we're working on. But I think trying to get those snapshots of where things are, uh, you know, changing and, you know, trying to be data driven and adapt is something. I do think these are moments of opportunity as well to build the future. And, you know, history shows through times like this, uh, because so many people

• 50:08Speaker 06

  are facing so many problems, you know, entrepreneurs rethink things and, and solve new things. And so it's, uh, it's definitely worth, worth keeping an eye on.

• 50:17Nilay Patel?

  I'm gonna ask one more. They're looking at me, but I'm gonna ask one more. Do you see it differently around the world, right? You have access to a lot of data from around the world. Different parts of the world are different states of this. What are you seeing around the world that is giving you indication that, that things are gonna change in the long term?

• 50:34Speaker 06

  You know, one thing which has been striking is, you know, I don't think in our lifetimes, we have seen such a global moment where everyone seems to be going through a shared experience. That's unique. So it's kind of, uh, one of the few positives. It feels like a moment for humanity together as a whole. But, you know, for sure, when you look at places in Asia, which have gone through and come back, you know, uh, you know, we do see some shifts in, you know, areas like, you know, as people get used to ordering online and stuff, some of those effects seem to have, you know, some of the shift states. And, you know, so we see, we see trends like that. But I see a lot more common than not, uh, which to me kind of says, you know,

• 51:18Speaker 06

  there's underlying, uh, shows the commonality of humanity more than how different we are as we are going through a moment like that. So there's more common patterns I see rather than differences.

• 51:28Nilay Patel?

  That's great. Well, Sundar, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for taking a few extra minutes. It's always great. We gotta, we gotta have you back soon.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Stay safe. Take care.

• 51:39Nilay Patel?

  All right. My thanks to Sundar Pichai for joining us on the Vergecast. Of course, thanks to Dieter as well. Great conversation. We'll be back on Friday with the chat show and then we've got just an incredible slate of guests coming up for the interview show over the next month or so. I'm so excited for you to hear these conversations. That comes out on Tuesday. You can tweet at me. I'm at Reckless. I love your feedback. I love your ideas for who we should talk to, what kinds of stories we should chase. Always so important. Tweet at me again. I'm at Reckless. Love your feedback. Talk to you soon.

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