Sonos CEO discusses the Arc and customer backlash over leaving old products behind

This week we saw Sonos announce several new products, most significantly the Arc, which is the company’s first soundbar to support Dolby Atmos. Other new devices include the Sonos Five speaker and a refreshed Sub, and all three will only work with Sonos’ new S2 app that launches next month. Sonos CEO Patrick Spence sat down virtually with Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel for The Vergecast to discuss the new products, the S2 update, the backlash that Sonos took from customers over its “Recycle Mode”, and the perception that the company is leaving customers with older Sonos hardware behind. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

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• 1:00Nilay Patel?

  Hey, everybody. It's Noah from the Fresh Cast. You might notice this week's interview episode is coming out a little late. That's because our guest is Sonos CEO Patrick Spence. Just today, Sonos announced what I've been asking for for a long time, a replacement for the playbar, a new soundbar called the Ark that supports Atmos. That's right, Sonos Atmos Playbar is finally here. It's called the Ark. They also announced a new Sonos 5, a new Sonos Sub. That's all on their new platform, Sonos S2. You might remember there was a lot of drama around the split between the previous platform, which is now called S1, S2. Patrick and I talked about the Ark, the new products. We talked about managing that platform transition, the controversy that came out of it, what they've learned from it, and we talked about, of course, competition.

• 1:42Nilay Patel?

  You might remember in January, Sonos sued Google for patent infringement, unfair competition. Patrick has been in front of Congress talking about what it's like to compete with the big tech companies. We get into it. Patrick is very strong on this. He really thinks Sonos has a responsibility to society to raise these issues and talk about what it's like to be an independent hardware company, competing with tech giants. All in all, a super wide-ranging, really interesting conversation. Everything from new products with Atmos to platform competition, public policy, to how to be a CEO of a hardware company managing remotely in a time of epidemic. Patrick was super game for all this stuff. I love this conversation. Check out Patrick Spence, CEO of Sonos.

• 2:23Nilay Patel?

  Patrick Spence, you're the CEO of Sonos. Welcome back to the Vergecast.

• 2:26Speaker 06

  It is great to be back.

• 2:28Nilay Patel?

  I am very excited you're back. The last time you were on the show, I think I spent an hour asking you for an Atmos soundbar.

• 2:36Speaker 06

  Well, and that's why I'm back, because I can actually talk about an Atmos soundbar. So I felt like I really couldn't return until I had something that you were asking for. So.

• 2:47Nilay Patel?

  Well, here we are. So we got to talk about that. That's the ARC. It just came out today. It's very exciting. You also have a new Sonos 5 speaker. There's a new Sonos Sub. And then, aside from that, you've had a very busy few months. You announced a new radio service way back in January. You entered into litigation against Google. You've appeared before Congress talking about competition. There is a lot of controversy around a platform transition. There's a lot to talk about. So I'm excited to have you back. Let's start, though, with a new product. We got to start with a new product. The ARC. Tell me about the Sonos ARC.

• 3:21Speaker 06

  So it really builds on everything that we've learned around home theater. And, you know, we've had the Playbar out for seven years now. It's been a huge smash into the home theater space. And what it really did was bring music back into the living room as well. So it wasn't just a home theater solution and great sound for your TV, but bringing music back in the living room. We built on that with Beam, and now we're really raising the bar with ARC. Just the, you know, the technology that's gone into it around Atmos, but as well, all the different transducers we put into it and the sound, the amount of time we spent on the design. So it looks gorgeous for all the large TVs that are being

• 4:01Speaker 06

  sold today. It really raises the bar for really that premium sound and brings to life all this amazing content that we're consuming at home. We know, right now, everybody is at home, but still wants to have that theater experience. And that's where ARC fits so well.

• 4:18Nilay Patel?

  And so this is obviously your first Atmos product. I'm assuming, and we are going to talk about the, your new platform, but I'm assuming you weren't able to do Atmos until you launched the new S2 platform.

• 4:28Speaker 06

  That's right. This, this required the work, the plumbing, if you will, underneath the covers, right, to make sure that we could support the next generation of technologies like Dolby Atmos. And you know Dolby's getting into music as well, and all the high-res music that's coming. So that was an important part of the element here. But I will tell you, the other thing is, We don't implement, you know, we don't bring out a product just on the basis of one technology either. If we're going to do something, we're going to make sure that the overall experience is something that really raises the bar. And, you know, I just, people can't hear the product yet. I'm excited for everybody too, but obviously, we're living in a different world right now. But having put it in my home, in the place of where I had the Playbar,

• 5:12Speaker 06

  I mean, it just blew me away, the difference in terms of what's there. And you really see how far we've brought the sound over that period of time. And it's, it's all the tweaks that come with that. And Dolby Atmos and the great content that's being created in that now just is kind of like the cherry on top.

• 5:27Nilay Patel?

  Are you seeing increased demand during this time for your soundbars?

• 5:32Speaker 06

  We have. This has been a really interesting time. In the month of March, our listening was up 32% year over year. So the number of listening hours jumped dramatically, 32% year over year. In April, it's up 48% year over year. So people are using their Sonos a lot more. And it's actually been on the soundbar video side where we've seen like a large portion of that. So definitely, people are consuming more video and Beam and Playbar have played a huge role in making that content sound better.

• 6:00Nilay Patel?

  But are you, are you selling more Beams? Are people like, we're at home all the time, the TV, we're watching all of our content at home, we need a soundbar, we should just buy one?

• 6:09Speaker 06

  Absolutely. And if you look at the NPD data from the last couple of weeks as well, I think it's, you know, roughly 70% year-over-year growth in soundbars. Beam has been, in the month of April, we actually, knowing people were going to be at home and knowing that we could bring a little more joy to people's home during this period, we actually kind of threw out our playbook and said, let's talk about Beam and tell people how this can make their video content better. And so Beam was one of our top-selling products in April. The other one that was interesting as a top-selling product was Move. So Move as well has really taken off over the last couple of months. I think some of that seasonality, but I think some of it's versatility too.

• 6:47Nilay Patel?

  So Beam is at $399. That's a pretty accessible price point. The ARC is $800. It's sort of at the top end. Why price it there? What do you, what do you, where do you see that market developing?

• 6:58Speaker 06

  You know, I think we had these same conversations when we brought Playbar out, right, and where it fit in the marketplace because it is a premium product. Look at what people are spending in terms of their televisions now, the size of the television displays. This is really about how you are enjoying that video content in a theater-like way at home. We know even after the crisis that we're in right now, people are going to be spending more time at home. They're going to want that theater-level experience at home. And so that's exactly where ARC fits. And I think for our consumers, we've seen that they're willing to pay for great products, and this is a product that's going to last for years. So when you put it all together and you think about how much usage these products get,

• 7:43Speaker 06

  it really is fair for the price that you're paying. And so we obviously think about that. We try to find, you know, we've always tried to find that sweet spot from a price perspective of something that makes sense and is sustainable for a number of years as well. That's one thing that differentiates us from so many consumer electronics company is we find the right price point that we can sustain for years. And we feel like we've been able to do that again with ARC.

• 8:06Nilay Patel?

  It's interesting, the ARC, I haven't gotten to listen to yet. I'm looking forward to listening to it, but I've looked at a lot of photos. It's plastic, it's polycarbonate. At $800, you sort of would expect it to be covered in fabric or to, I don't know, be made of diamonds or something. Why go with, why go with plastic?

• 8:23Speaker 06

  It helps when you're thinking about materials. It's really, the first thing we do is think sound, right? And so when you think about, there's rattles and there's other things that happen with some of the fabric and you can run into different issues in terms of dust collection, dirt collection, as you think about the fabrics. And so we found a really great plastic to use that does not look like plastic when it's there with your television. It looks like it's metallic or something like that. I mean, you have to, you're going to see it. It is awesome and it looks premium as we go through it. And so we balance both the material for the use of sound and optimizing great sound. And then how does it, you know, look? What's the design at the end of the day?

• 9:05Speaker 06

  And so we found this plastic that works really well and strikes both of those. And, you know, you can proudly display it in your home. So it really looks like a premium product.

• 9:14Nilay Patel?

  This is one of those things where I just realized. How valuable it is to go to the events and see the things in person because it would have been the third sentence of our news story.

• 9:25Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 9:25Nilay Patel?

  But so I'm looking forward to seeing it, but that's the thing that has jumped out to me so far because all I can do is look at pictures, but I'm looking forward to seeing. So you and I had a chance to talk last week and we were talking about voice assistants and I want to bring up this conversation again. The ARC has microphones in it, the Beam has microphones in it and I just, I still haven't seen voice assistants in the living room take off. And I have a lot of products with voice assistants in my, in my living room and I basically never use them. And I'm wondering if you've seen data that shows people are using them, if there's something more you need to do, if there's an inflection point you think is going to come. What's the holdup right now?

• 10:05Speaker 06

  People are still using voice for the same things they were when it first came out. And so largely that is starting music, right? So getting the music playing, that's timers or alarms and then asking for the weather from what, from what we can see today. And there hasn't been, not just in the living room, but broadly, there hasn't been a change in consumer behavior around that. And I haven't seen a lot of innovation in that space either really as we've gone through it. I think it's great for starting the music, but it hasn't evolved the way most things have. It certainly hasn't become, you know, the next mobile operating system type platform, right? We've talked about that at the beginning of like, what's the future of voice? It's a great way and probably even more relevant way as we think about hygiene and post COVID,

• 10:50Speaker 06

  you know, way to get the music started, not touch something. But, you know, I think the, the other data point we have is the Sonos One SL, which we brought out last fall, which is a Sonos One without the microphones in it. And it has done tremendously well. So, you know, it is a product that has surprised me even in terms of how much it's sold. And so the, the, so we are looking at it and we see a role for voice for sure as we think about the, you know, as we think about the whole experience. And, and obviously we invested as well. We purchased a, a voice company, Snips, earlier this year and we think there's opportunity There, you know, we think there's opportunity around the experience and particularly in our world,

• 11:31Speaker 06

  the music experience and that living room experience, things that maybe we can do from a depth perspective. We're certainly not going to build, you know, uh, something to compete with Alexa and Google Assistant. Amazon and Google are great at that, you know, they can offer the breadth and everything that people want. But our focus is the music and the entertainment side. And so we really feel like we can do that. And there's opportunity there and we can do it in a more private way. That was one of the things that Sonos also was very focused on is how you do that while maintaining a user's privacy. And stay focused on local, not always having to go to the cloud. So I think there's a lot of opportunity that's there, but today, the, at least on Sonos, the way we see people engaging with voice is the same way it was three years ago when it first came out.

• 12:15Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, and I, I think my question is really just, that seems pretty universal, right? We're still just setting timers and asking to play some music and then some random Spotify playlist is going to start. Who knows what's going to happen, but in the living room in particular, that was, it was always pitched to me as the opportunity. You would sit down and say, well, I guess you wouldn't say it now, but you would sit down and say, play The Last Dance. And it would figure out that it's on ESPN and it would light up the correct device. And like, it would just start playing, you wouldn't think about it. And I just have not seen that happen yet. You do sell a soundbar with a microphone and you sold two of them. I'm wondering if, right, there's got to have been a blocker where you have wanted to deliver that experience and you haven't been able to. Are you seeing a path around it or path through it?

• 13:00Speaker 06

  You know, I, I think we'll see as we go through this. I don't know, I think the, even for music, right? It's for starting music, but I don't see a lot of people, we don't see data where people are using it to find the next thing, right? And using it as actively as you would the app or how easy it should be. And so that's an area we're exploring because I do think experience matters. We've seen this right now, we're living through it with video conferencing where, you know, everybody and their brothers tried video conferencing and then Zoom just got it right, right? And all of a sudden it absolutely explodes. We, we believe there's something there in voice and that we'll be able to find it over time, starting with music, that gets people more engaged in using it. And that's what I'm most interested in right now.

• 13:42Speaker 06

  I think that opportunity exists in the living room and I hope we're the ones that are able to actually find the way through it.

• 13:47Nilay Patel?

  So with Snap, so you're planning to build your own voice assistant that sits alongside Alexa and a Google Assistant?

• 13:53Speaker 06

  Exactly. This is a complementary strategy, right? Alongside Alexa and Google Assistant. People love those assistants for a variety of reasons and we, you know, we're all about freedom of choice. So we want to make sure people have an opportunity to run any voice assistant they choose.

• 14:08Nilay Patel?

  Are they going to talk to each other the way that like Microsoft Cortana can talk to Alexa? Are they, they're going to sit totally beside each other?

• 14:15Speaker 06

  I hope eventually, you know, I hope eventually, certainly the whole privacy aspect is going to be something that we're, you know, we're very thoughtful of. And so that we'll have to see how that plays out with those assistants which collect data and are very focused on customer data, right? Those, those things may not jive, but I do hope over time that they'll be able to and they'll interoperate. And I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to.

• 14:36Nilay Patel?

  I want to come back all the way to the arc and ask one last question about it. It is obviously coming out. Again, I'm very excited to hear it. Atmos is sort of the top line format. Are you thinking about supporting the other object oriented surround formats, DTSX, other things?

• 14:51Speaker 06

  We're, we're always looking at that. It, again, it's less, it's less the actual technology for us and what does it do for the consumer, right? And what is it, what does it mean in terms of the average Sonos customer and the experience that they're going to have? So we'll continue, you, you know, our, our calling card is making it better over time. So we're going to continue to make it better over time and optimize it. And that might include adding other new technologies to it for sure.

• 15:14Nilay Patel?

  Gee, is that like a chicken and egg problem? I don't see a lot of DTSX streaming services out there. It's very much a physical media format. Does that play into your decision making?

• 15:25Speaker 06

  Absolutely. You know, we didn't, you know, this question of what, what formats we support came up right with Playbar even, right? And some of the ones that we weren't, were or weren't supporting. And we had Dolby Digital and part of the, the, part of our point was this is what streaming services are using. And that's where we see the future going. And now that Atmos has become so prevalent across the streaming services, that fits our audience, right? And the content that, that people in the Sonos ecosystem are, are really consuming. So it's a good fit. We haven't seen as much around some of the other technologies. And so we'll continue to monitor that and see whether it takes off in streaming or not specifically.

• 16:05Nilay Patel?

  Yeah. I think those of us with like a Blu-ray collections might just have to, I mean, it's a very small, but very passionate audience.

• 16:13Speaker 06

  Very passionate. I get those emails.

• 16:17Nilay Patel?

  So there's two other products that you rolled out that I want to talk about quickly. Sonos 5, which is the Play 5, but with new stuff inside.

• 16:25Speaker 06

  And a awesome white grill on the front of the white one as well in terms of what's there. But it is, it is an update. That's right. In terms of just putting the latest horsepower inside of it and making sure that we give it a bit of a refresh on the, on the design side.

• 16:42Nilay Patel?

  And it's the same with the new sub as well.

• 16:44Speaker 06

  That's right. Exactly the same as we think about those products. And so it was a perfect time to do it alongside, you know, kind of the premium part of our line, to be able to do that all at once. And yeah, bring, you know, bring that great cinema-like experience home to everybody.

• 16:59Nilay Patel?

  Is that how you think about your line? There's the premium side of the line and then the sort of the mass market side?

• 17:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, not, we're not that, I mean, I look at our, even our one as a premium product at that price point. So, you know, we, we look at it, we try to kind of bring something more premium at every price point as we go through it. But we certainly think about it in terms of like good, better, best, and the way that we work through our portfolio overall.

• 17:23Nilay Patel?

  And then there's no microphones on the new Sonos 5.

• 17:26Speaker 06

  That's right. You know, you and I talked a long time ago, there, there was a point there with voice, maybe a year in, where I expected that consumers would demand, that voice being every single product going forward, our experience with the 1SL, and then even the engagement of voice, like we talked about, has led us to believe it, in certain products, it's really important. And then in other products, it's less relevant. And we feel for people that are really going for that premium sound profile and really want to enjoy, you know, high fidelity audio, it's less of an issue.

• 17:56Nilay Patel?

  It seems like that, that's the customer base probably already has a voice device in that room. I, I keep coming back to the notion of where do the microphones live? Like in which product should they live? And the answer doesn't seem like it should be every product. Is that something you're seeing from your customers, from your own research as well, that people just don't want microphones and everything?

• 18:17Speaker 06

  That's been my hypothesis and you know, we as an industry have rushed to put microphones in everything, right? And I think that's been, that introduces its own responsibilities for manufacturers as well and complexities for consumers that I don't love, quite frankly. And I do think, you know, I still, you and I may even have talked about this in the past. I still do wonder if it's not a case where, you know, in most homes, it's either in the light switch or in a light bulb or something like that and helping control, you know, all of the products and they're tied together. But you and I also both know that there's so much around interoperability and walled gardens between here and there that we're probably going to be living with multiple microphones in rooms for a while.

• 18:57Nilay Patel?

  Oh, we're going to get to interoperability. You just, you just, you wait. I'm building you up. Last new product, Sonos Radio. We've talked a lot about whether or not you do your own services, whether you would compete, right? You're open to all. That's a big part of the mission. Now you have your own content service with advertising. It's a new revenue stream for you. What was the thinking beyond launching your own content?

• 19:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, you know, we, we ultimately have seen that radio has been a big proportion of our usage for a long time. So over half of the usage. And so we hadn't done justice to the experience for our customers that were there. And as we got into it, we did see the opportunity to, you know, really bring something new to customers and make that experience better and also create a platform. So there's a, there's an experience aspect and making it better for customers and driving engagement with the brand as well and the product. Then there's an aspect of the business, like you said, and you're thinking about, okay, let's try this model and see how it resonates with our customers or not at the end of the day. And then there is an aspect still from the partnering that

• 19:59Speaker 06

  we do and the open ecosystem we have where we're able to serve up some of our partner content and give, like, help introduce people to Spotify or an iHeartRadio or things like that. So, you know, there's a few different angles on it. I'm most excited by the fact that we're putting our toe in the water into trying something new and we're going to learn a lot as we go through that. And we have a highly engaged customer base and I'm excited for what we can learn and where we evolve it from here. So, yeah, it's been great. We've seen really high engagement so far in terms of the people that have upgraded the software for Sonos Radio and we'll see where it goes from here.

• 20:37Nilay Patel?

  That pitch about you can introduce folks to other services.

• 20:42Nilay Patel?

  When I hear the whole thing, it sounds a lot like what Roku does with the Roku Channel, right? Most people, I say this a lot, but every time I say it to somebody new, it's a surprise every time. Roku makes almost all of its money on the software and services side and almost none of it on the hardware side. Is that a transition that you're interested in doing? Where you're selling ad spots on your service, you're taking, you know, commission referrals, affiliate referrals to other service signups? Are you thinking in those terms?

• 21:09Speaker 06

  Thinking, you know, we're thinking more in new experiences that help us deepen the engagement with customers and definitely are monetizable, right? So, so there's two sides of that coin. Is it, is it creating a better experience for our customers and then are they willing to pay for it as we think of those experiences? And, but, but it's not, you know, it's not like we're getting out of the business of creating great hardware and selling premium hardware as we go through it. I think Roku's got a different business model in terms of, you know, they're gonna basically give away the hardware and then, to your point, you know, try and drive advertising and subscriptions and that, I don't see, you know, that for us in terms of where we are right now. I think, I think it's a little bit different in the way we're approaching it.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Welcome to Sephora. I'm looking for a perfume that's not too perfumey. I got you.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Serum moisturizer or moisturizer syrup?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Let's get into layering. My concealer is making me look worse. Sounds like the wrong shade. Let's get you matched.

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• 22:49Speaker 07

  Hi, I, uh... Let's get you a basket.

• 22:56Nilay Patel?

  The new ARC, the SUB, the 5, all run S2. They cannot run the previous generation of the platform. They can't run an S1.

• 23:03Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 23:04Nilay Patel?

  When you announced, "Hey, we're gonna slowly sunset S1, and when the new app and stuff rolls out, there's some hardware that will be left behind," there was effectively chaos. And you put out a blog post, you apologized to people for miscommunicating. You've stuck to the guns, though. You're splitting the platform into the new one and the previous one. Walk me through that drama from your perspective and why you've held on to this decision in this way.

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, so the, you know, one, there's an aspect of trying to make sure that we are building for the future so we can support some of those new technologies like Atmos and some of the high-res music that is, we believe, you know, over the next few years is going to be important to consumers. So this has been, obviously, you know, a lot of work internally to get us to where we got to in January. And I think part of the issue, you know, so we worked through it, we looked at everything that we could do. How do we keep living up to the promise that we set and at the same time, you know, position it for the future so that we can deliver all this new stuff? And, you know, so we've worked through that. And I think when it came to January, almost internally, we had

• 24:15Speaker 06

  so, we had so, gone through this over and over and over again. It created a situation where we hadn't put the quality into that initial communication that we should have. And we tried to simplify it, and we probably simplified it to a degree that didn't make sense. Well, I know we did as we went through that. And we didn't clearly articulate what we were doing and when. And it was well-intended, because it was also well-intended to help people understand, "Hey, this is coming, right in June." And that was back in January, as opposed to, you know, doing it right at the time the new products came out. So we thought, you know, "Hey, we'll give people a heads up. They can start to think about this and think about what's right for them." Because for some customers, staying on S1 is going to be the right solution. For some, it's going to be, you know, "I'm gonna run

• 24:59Speaker 06

  a mix system." That'll be very few that run S1 and S2. And then for some, it's going to be, "I'm moving to S2." And we've definitely seen that over the course of April. So we went through all of that. We just, we didn't land the communication the way we needed to. We left people with the impression that... It would be bricked. And I think, I just think as an industry, it's so interesting that we've created this world where people think it's just going to stop working. Because that was never our intent. You know, we've all, we've always had a team set aside to be doing the security patches and updates we need to and those kind of things. And so, um, you know, I think getting back out quickly was a learning to make sure people understood that and that they can stay on S1. And when they're ready to go to S2, they can actually go and do that.

• 25:39Speaker 06

  And yeah, it's not perfect as we work through this, but we also, through this interim period, you know, created that ability to run S1 and S2. What we call a split household, if people choose to, you know, through this, because we know we have some early adopters and really technical. People in our base that will want to actually go do that. They may want to adopt ARC and run that separately. And then they may want to run the rest of their system on S1. So we've tried to create a series of options for our customers. That allows them to pace the upgrade to S2 when they're ready.

• 26:10Nilay Patel?

  When you say split system, they're not going to talk to each other. So if I have a house full of S1 products and I buy an ARC, it's a different app. You can't stream music through everything all at once. They're totally independent of each other.

• 26:22Speaker 06

  Correct. That's right. We think that'll be a small group of people that do that. We've had a small group in beta that have been doing that as well as we go through it. I ran it myself for a while like that. And what I foresee is that somebody might have ARC in their living room and run it that way. And, you know, and then the rest of their system is probably on S1 and they're actually playing that. But again, I would say that's going to be a small contingent of people.

• 26:45Nilay Patel?

  Part of the reason people thought the devices would be bricked was the earlier controversy about your recycle mode. Which I believe you've now sort of, you don't do it anymore.

• 26:54Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 26:55Nilay Patel?

  But that was right. It sprung up because people said, people break these devices. There's no opportunity to refurbish or keep using them. What made you decide to just stop doing recycle mode?

• 27:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I'll tell you what started the recycle mode was we, you know, we, we knew we were coming to a period where people would be upgrading, right? We've built these products, there, some of the products are, that we're talking about are 10 to 15 years old. And so we could see that people were interested in trading up to the next generation. And, and our first, our primary goal was how do we responsibly recycle those products that they're taking out of commission? You know, and, and that, we were thinking more of the phone model, quite frankly, and we thought people would want to return it. So we said, we will even pick up that product for you, take it back and responsibly recycle it. Or you can go to the local responsible recycler and we gave people the addresses, all of those kinds of things. You know, I think this is where we're not like a phone and we're not like any other consumer electronics.

• 27:47Speaker 06

  And it was an interesting learning because we listened and people said, hey, I can still use this one. I can give it to a friend. I can do these kinds of things. As we said, you know what? You're right. At the end of the day, you can, and we are different than anybody else out there. So we're gonna get rid of this recycle mode. And if you do want to recycle it, we still have all that data there. We'll still take it back and we, and here's your local recycling. So there, because there are people that are doing that, right? But if not, you want to use it, then go ahead and be able to do that. And so I, I think it's a strength of the organization that we listen and we learn and then we evolve, right? And so that's what we've done in that particular case.

• 28:26Speaker 06

  But it came from a place that was, you know, trying to think about the environment and making sure these things were responsibly recycled. But, um, you know, we heard differently from customers and we adjusted.

• 28:38Nilay Patel?

  It does seem like one of the root issues here, regardless of the communications issues, is a really tough spot where people expect speakers to last forever. I have speakers that are 20 years old. Lots of people have speakers that are 20 years old, but computers absolutely do not last forever.

• 28:55Speaker 06

  You nailed it. That is absolutely it. The number of emails I received when the communication first came out in January around that very thing. I've had a set of speakers for 40 years, 50 years, in some cases, in terms of what people have had.

• 29:09Nilay Patel?

  Try recon those speakers.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  And it's not, and the consumer at the end of the day, it's not their responsibility to understand that what we did was put a computer and speakers together. And so it's made us mindful of what does that mean? And trying to be as upfront as possible around, hey, the fact that these are different and there's software in them. But I think that's not, that's not something that we're going to single-handedly educate people on over time. People are learning as we go through, we were on the forefront of this, but you see it with a multitude of products now where you've introduced computing and computing components into everyday appliances. And you start to see there's the good of that from an experience side. And then there's the bad of that in terms of the lifecycle. But with what we've tried to do with S1,

• 29:55Speaker 06

  I think we're trying to do what we can. And look, it is a, it is a huge engineering achievement that we have products that have been around for 15 years and continue to play music and do these things. And it is, it's something that we're super proud of. It is very different to the consumer electronics industry, to the appliance industry, or the pure passive speaker industry. It's not that different. And so we're just, we're just in that kind of period where consumers are learning what it means for a product to be smart, I would say, as we go through this. And I try to be as empathetic to that understanding. And look, we want our products to last as long as they possibly can through this. But there are some technical limitations we run into every once in a while. The good news is, the first time we've run

• 30:38Speaker 06

  into it is 15 years into building products. And so I feel good about that in the grand scheme of things.

• 30:45Nilay Patel?

  Do you still get emails about that one hardware controller you used to make? Because I would, I would like you to bring that thing back.

• 30:50Speaker 06

  I absolutely do. There's a few people that would like us to, in terms of what's there. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, my email's on our website, so I get a ton of different emails. And it's, I got a lot in January, and I love it. I love. To hear from customers and hear what they're thinking. I I think I'm probably one of the only CEOs who can say they get a lot of emails which say how much they love the product. Right. And it's just left at that, or how much they love the interaction they've had with somebody on our customer support team. You know, it is, I just, I think I'm very fortunate because to get that kind of input and feedback from customers is amazing. And I love the the feedback that is constructive in terms of what we should be doing as we go forward and things we got wrong.

• 31:33Speaker 06

  Like, that's helpful, too. So it's all good.

• 31:36Nilay Patel?

  One of the things you and I have talked about a lot is how you've increased your product introduction cadence by modularizing some of the platform. Have you thought about modularizing some of the products so that you could actually upgrade the product without swapping out the entire speaker?

• 31:51Speaker 06

  It is something that through this, we definitely have started to talk about and think about, is there a way to do that? Because there's certain, to your point, there's components like in our in our products that were from 15 years ago. Like, the the chip and the memory, the Wi Fi chip as well, that you'd love to be able to upgrade. And it was never contemplated at that time that we would ever open these products or be able to do that. But now, as we look at it, it's definitely something that we're considering, how we might be able to modularize that. Or over time, how do you make it easier for people to move to the next generation? You know, those kind of questions. But I do think from a sustainability perspective, the modularization is a really interesting one, really interesting one.

• 32:34Nilay Patel?

  I think the only example I can think of, and I honestly do not know how this went for them, is Samsung years ago broke out the sort of CPU module of its TVs, so that later on you could upgrade that upgrade that module. And it was a big hit at CS, and then we never heard about it again. But are you thinking in those terms that you would, you know, you'd buy an $800 soundbar and then 10 years from now you would swap out the brain?

• 32:57Speaker 06

  That that is exactly the kind of thing we've been exploring as we've lived through this life cycle, what we call the the life cycle of the 15, 10, 15 year old products and think about what the future might hold. So that's an interesting area. There's a lot of engineering between here and there, but it is something we're definitely thinking about because we've always built products that last for a long time for what's in them, right? It's all relative to consumer electronics as we think about that, but we want to keep raising that bar.

• 33:23Nilay Patel?

  Do you think there's a difference in expectation that consumers should have between? I mean, you saw everything from what $150 IKEA lamps, which is still my favorite Sonos product, all the way now to, you know, an $800 soundbar to people have entire racks of amps powering their in-home systems. Do you think there's, there should be a different expectation for the cheaper products versus the more expensive ones in terms of duration?

• 33:51Speaker 06

  It's an interesting question. We don't think about it that way when we're, when we're building them, quite frankly. And actually, it starts at 99 with the IKEA bookshelf speakers. So 99 up to 800. We don't, we don't think about it in that way. But you know, there are things I'm thinking like through the components and even as we, we standardize the components inside and try to use the same, try to reuse the same kind of brains and platform inside of them all. There are some trade offs that happen that have to happen for the less expensive products. But, you know, again, we try to push and put as much as possible in there. So we've never thought about it like that. And I don't think you have to make that compromise. No. And, you know, working with IKEA too, that's the other thing. They, the reason they've loved working with us and the reason we've loved working with them is we're trying to build these products to last for a long, long

• 34:33Speaker 06

  time. And so, no, I don't think it should depend on price point. I think everybody has a responsibility to be building the products that they have to last for, you know, as long as technically possible through this. So.

• 34:47Nilay Patel?

  Are you comfortable giving a guarantee? I noticed with inside of this drama, what you have consistently said is we will support things for as long as we can. You've managed to extend support for S1. Have you ever thought about saying, look, it's $800 soundbar, we promise to support it for 10 years?

• 35:05Speaker 06

  Have we thought about it? I think the, I'm not sure what, I'm not sure how much that helps necessarily, right? In terms of like putting that out there and I don't think, I don't think consumers necessarily think in that way. You know, I don't look to my phone to get that guarantee as I think through what I'm purchasing or the laptop or any of those things as we go through it. I haven't found it like a big, I guess I would say it's not a big sticking point with consumers. The mindset is all over the map when it comes to what is the right number of years that a product should be supported. And so I think the thing, the best thing that we can do is just keep holding ourselves to be accountable to making these products awesome and then having them last as long as possible. And who knows, we might find breakthroughs, whether it's modularization

• 35:49Speaker 06

  or something else that we do to bend the laws of physics around wifi or something that allow us to extend the life of products. And so I also wouldn't want to set an expectation, you know, that's, that's actually too short in an era where maybe we find a breakthrough and it allows us to support it for even longer than, you know, than some X number of years.

• 36:08Nilay Patel?

  How long do you think people should expect right now with these products to last?

• 36:13Speaker 06

  You know, I don't, all I can point to is say we have ones today that have been out there 15 years and we're still supporting them.

• 36:20Nilay Patel?

  But that it's coming to an end. So is 15 is?

• 36:23Speaker 06

  Well, it's, but it's not, right? Because S1 continues to work and you know, I've been very clear that we're going to continue to try and, you know, keep that running for as long as possible. So I would say that chapter hasn't even been written yet. And so we're still setting the bar for any audio product that combines computing into it. We're setting the bar for what the lifetime looks like.

• 36:46Nilay Patel?

  This brings me to the next turn, which is Amazon and Google. Here's, here's my connection. You've got to support a legacy platform. You've got to build a new platform. You've got to put out new products. You've got to market those products. Those are all costly things to do. Your main revenue line is obviously selling hardware. You're up against Amazon and Google, who are very motivated to put speakers and microphones in everybody's houses. Those businesses are deeply subsidized by their other much larger businesses.

• 37:14Nilay Patel?

  You have been very vocal about this competition being unfair, about your reliance on their platforms. You have sued Google. Amazon is now under all kinds of scrutiny from Congress. What is the status of your relationship with the big platforms? See, I got there.

• 37:29Speaker 06

  So a couple of things. One is, I do think focus is a strength for some companies in this situation. I think that's why we've been successful, even in the face of the, you know, Amazon and Google putting products out there, you know, at cost or below, and with a different strategic intent. So I think our ability to navigate that is a testament to the focus and the amazing people that we have at Sonos. And it's why companies like Slack and Zoom continue to be successful, even in the face of some of these big tech giants. Now, that said, I think, you know, I lived through a period where, in my previous life, where Microsoft and Qualcomm got together to create wireless knowledge to kill rim BlackBerry. And what was different in that period? Because I think when you get in these conversations, it's always like,

• 38:14Speaker 06

  well, is it just, you know, that nothing's really changed or what's different in this time? And what's different is when Microsoft and Qualcomm did that, they still did it with a profit motive in mind, right? It was a different time where even like monopolists of the past have often entered new categories, but they've done so with some degree of, well, we need to make a profit in this, that's, you know, to some degree. And what I think we're seeing now is an era where the, you know, big tech has learned from the mistakes of the past and is creating a situation where they use predatory pricing to effectively try and solidify an existing monopoly that they have.

• 38:56Speaker 06

  And with Google, you know, it's very clear that they're trying to prop up their customer data monopoly, right? And search on that with the products that they put out there. And, and I think the, the difference is they're willing to do this from, and really at any cost, right? Go and make sure that they prop up their existing dominant position. And they do it also without innovation. And that's why we launched the I T C action, you know, the I P infringement, because they're just copying what others do in some cases. You look at whether it's speakers or home Wi Fi or music streaming or now video conferencing, right? As you look at it, you know, Google jumping in, they haven't brought innovation

• 39:37Speaker 06

  to it. What they've brought is predatory pricing and they're jumping on the bandwagon. And we've never lived through an era, I haven't, where the big tech companies jump on the next thing. I keep calling it FOMO, right? They jump on whatever it is, gaming, speakers, now video conferencing, and they do it in such a way where they infringe on the invention of somebody else, you know, and you saw it with Eero, you're seeing it with Zoom right now, you've seen it with us. They are using their size and scale to do what's called efficient infringement, because they know that down the road, they're basically counting that they will, even if they lose a court case, that it's worth it in the short term to keep propping up the dominant position they have elsewhere. And they're doing it

• 40:21Speaker 06

  with predatory pricing, because they're coming in and they're using their strength in another category to fund, you know, cost or below cost offerings in another to make sure they don't lose their dominant position in search or retail or these particular other areas. And so I just think, you know, that a lot of companies have learned from the past how to keep a dominant position now in a way we haven't seen before.

• 40:43Nilay Patel?

  So has this affected your thinking on voice? We started out saying, some of these products have voice assistants and microphones, some of them don't, the data isn't there, we don't see any usage. And now you're saying, these companies are trying to crush us with predatory pricing and efficient infringement. What if I don't need their voice assistance anymore? Is that, is that playing into your thinking?

• 41:04Speaker 06

  No, well, less so. I, you know, from my perspective, it's more about the consumers in terms of what services we offer, whether voice or music streaming and those kind of things. If they want to use Amazon Prime Music and Google Play Music, YouTube Music, those kinds of things, we want to offer those, right? And we have good relationships with those teams. Same with, you know, a good relationship with the people that run Voice over there. This is, this is a different, higher level. societal issue, right? So I I am not going to hamstring our product experience, you know, in terms of what's there around this, but I do think I have a responsibility and we're in a unique position because we are strong to be able to speak out and say, hey, here's what it looks like is happening.

• 41:45Speaker 06

  It's obviously up to, you know, the antitrust subcommittee, DOJ, FTC to be looking at these things and understanding, okay, what should we do? But but when I look at it and understand what's happening and I compare it to previous areas where we had strong players like Microsoft and Intel, I see that it's very different than it was at that point. And we're going to look, we're living through this era of COVID. I think we we see that the the big tech companies are probably going to become stronger. Are we going to become more dependent on those companies? And this is where we as a society just have to decide, are we okay with that or not? And we're standing up, you know, for ourselves against Google and saying it's not okay to infringe on intellectual property and predatory price in this space.

• 42:28Speaker 06

  Because it just drives out further innovation and we we have what the new business starts are at a 30 year low. That's crazy, right? That's crazy in this country of innovation and entrepreneurship. There should be new bit more and more new businesses starting all the time. We're at a 30 year low. We're at a 20 year low. We have, we have half the number of public companies is 20 years ago. This concentration is not good for America. And so that's why we're standing up and taking the actions that we need to.

• 42:57Nilay Patel?

  So you filed your suit in January. You were in Congress in February, I think.

• 43:02Speaker 06

  Yes, yep.

• 43:03Nilay Patel?

  What's happened since? Has there any move in on the Google side? Has Cicilline's committee come at you for more? What's what's been happening?

• 43:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, the, you know, there, there are plenty of, you know, government organizations that have been knocking at the door, not just of us, but of many companies in our situation. So we continue to cooperate, you know, with those companies and give our perspective at the end of the day. And then the important thing to note with Google and our ITC action, which happens much, much more quickly than federal courts, which most people are used to, July 20th, we have our next, we have a pre-trial Markman hearing. So that's the next big milestone. And I think the timeline is something like hearings are supposed to happen and conclude by the end of calendar Q1 2021. So ITC has an accelerated schedule. That's kind of the timeline that we're in right now. And yeah, we're very confident in our position.

• 43:55Nilay Patel?

  And Google hasn't decided to just give up.

• 43:57Speaker 06

  We're very confident in our position.

• 44:00Nilay Patel?

  I'm curious. I mean, like, you still work with them. You actually rolled out a new feature with Assistant a few months ago where it can set Sonos as a default speaker now. You're obviously still working with them. Is the action caller in your relationship?

• 44:12Speaker 06

  No, I mean, not from a day-to-day working aspect in terms of some of the services they have and how we work on those services. There's there's an aspect of their business, which, you know, we feel isn't doing the right thing, right? And is obviously infringed on our intellectual property. And then there's a broader societal issue. It's not personal to anybody there or impact our day-to-day relationship around what's the right thing for society as we think about the power that certain companies have and the way that they behave as they enter in new categories that, again, society needs to reckon with. We can shine sunlight on it and show people what what our, you know, what our perception of that is. And so it's it's complicated in a way, but at the end of the day,

• 44:55Speaker 06

  they have services that they want to get out to consumers. We are in, you know, over 10 million of the most attractive consumers in the world's homes at this point. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship and it continues.

• 45:07Nilay Patel?

  Is it fair to say that more people are using Alexa than Assistant on your devices?

• 45:10Speaker 06

  I actually have not looked at that data. It's probably true just because Alexa was a year ahead of Google Assistant. So yeah, that's probably still the case.

• 45:18Nilay Patel?

  I'm just, I mean, you sued Google, you didn't sue Amazon. I'm guessing you suing both of them at once was not a great idea.

• 45:26Speaker 06

  We, I think the more important thing is we don't want to sue anyone. So we've tried to, you know, as we've tried to work through this, we've tried to work through it constructively. Some partners have been willing to work through this because there's not just two companies that infringe on our intellectual property. So as we work through this, you get to a point where sometimes if conversations aren't progressing the way you want them to, you do need to move to the courts and that's the situation we've had to with Google.

• 45:52Nilay Patel?

  What's your relationship with Amazon? I mean, they're under enormous amount of scrutiny now, right? Not only is Congress mad at them and potentially claiming that they lied in a hearing, there is workplace scrutiny of Amazon. There's the fact that their ship times have gotten longer. They just seem like one of their engineers just quit this week. It seems like the Amazon scrutiny is ever higher. What is your relationship with them? Has it changed over the past few months?

• 46:20Speaker 06

  I have a pretty close relationship with Dave Lemp over there and the team and respect everything that they've done as we go through this. So I mean, we continue to have a good partnership with Steve Boom too over on the music side. So a good partnership at the end of the day. And I think they obviously have, again, from a society level, there are questions of their power and where they sit. But as a partner to us, they continue to be constructive and we look at what we can do in the future and those kinds of things. So yeah, this is where this is where you have to split the two things out, right? There is the day to day and how are we serving customers together? And then there's questions that Congress and the Senate, the executive branch need to ask about what's the right thing for society? And that's where that's where I think as

• 47:05Speaker 06

  well, they respect the fact that we are principled in our approach and how we do this. But it also isn't personal and it isn't something that should impact customers in a way and the services that they get.

• 47:18Nilay Patel?

  All right, let's end on products. I'll bring you back out of fixing society. Although maybe with great speakers, everyone will be healed. ARC, Sonos 5, new sub, when does all this stuff ship?

• 47:29Speaker 06

  So it will be available June 10 as well. So yeah, so announcing today and shipping on June 10. So we're excited for people to listen to it. It's gonna be a little bit different, right? Because we're online and we're in a different kind of world as we launch this product. But that's the other thing that's been amazing. You know, through the month of April, we've seen people using our direct to consumer channel like crazy. And so I think consumer behavior is changing in a way where people are willing to purchase audio products on the brand. And with that kind of level of comfort, they know they can return it if they want to. But it's been a it's been a pretty strong April in terms of what we would have expected versus where the economy is. And so I'm excited to

• 48:10Speaker 06

  see how consumers react to ARC, Sub and 5. And it'll be interesting to see the difference between the situation when it's only available online and then what actually moves into physical.

• 48:21Nilay Patel?

  Yeah, I mean, this was a question I was getting to, which is Usually you have events, you have end caps in big retailers, you have demos, you get to do all the stuff. What has changed about the approach now when it's basically just people in the web browsers?

• 48:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, as you, you know, as you've experienced through this, the entire kind of rollout to people in the media has been different. It's all virtual. The team did an amazing job to pivot to that over, you know, just a few weeks and put something kind of unique together. So people could experience it and understand the product. It's not the same as listening to it for sure. But, you know, with our brand, I think it'll be interesting to see do people purchase it and want to listen to it in that way. But all we can do is make it available online at this point, prepare for a physical to reopen. It's still very hazy as to when stores will reopen, what exactly that means as we go through this. So we focus on what we can control in the short term, try to create a good experience online.

• 49:17Speaker 06

  We've done a couple of neat things with voiceovers and, you know, trying to give people a different type of experience and we'll see how it goes.

• 49:24Nilay Patel?

  All right. I end every CEO interview I do by asking people when they work, but I feel like I have to change it now, which is, I mean, it's different. We're all, you know, we're all sitting at home. How is managing the company through a new hardware development, bring up cycle, launch? How has that changed for you? When are you working now? What's your strategy for managing remotely?

• 49:43Speaker 06

  It was, one, we started in two different places, right? We, we started the company in Santa Barbara and Boston simultaneously. So we've always known how to work in a distributed fashion, but this has been different, right? With everybody at home, like all the, you know, with kids, with parents, roommates, all of these things. I have been so inspired and I am so grateful to the way our people have reacted to this. Setting up test labs in their kitchens, in their bathrooms, right? To test some of these new products and get ready to roll them out the way the PR teams pivoted and the go to market team. So that we can launch these products the way that we have. It has been tremendous. And when, when this hit, we immediately shifted our priorities and I said, our number one priority is to support our people.

• 50:26Speaker 06

  And so we helped get people set up to work from home. And one of the things that we quickly realized is, People are struggling with getting their kids set up on remote learning. If their parents need help, if their neighbors need groceries, these kinds of things. And so we instituted what we call care time. And so everybody gets 10 hours a week to paid to be, you know, helping their kids with school or those kinds of things and try to create, you try to help people manage through this because I think there's a real danger that people burn out and overwork themselves in this situation since there isn't that clear barrier between work and home. And I, I just could not be more thankful for the way everybody at Sonos has stepped up through this period. And so I felt a responsibility to say, hey, like, make sure you're taking care of yourself,

• 51:09Speaker 06

  your family, your roommates, all of these things through this period. And so we, you know, we've tried to do that and I do, you know, I do think it's a, it's a whole different world right now, but I'm just very grateful and the perseverance, the agility, the creativity we've seen through this has been just awesome. And, and it makes me, you know, makes me realize all the investments we've made, all the time I spend, you know, I think I've told you before that there's two things I focus on, strategy and culture. And all the time I've spent on culture and trying to get us to a place where, you know, people, you know, feel like they have, you know, something special they're doing at Sonos and they want to be part of something special and we treat them well through this. I think it all pays off in a crisis because people are either gonna, they're gonna go one way or the other, right?

• 51:54Speaker 06

  Which is they're gonna withdraw and it's gonna be harder or they're really gonna step up and rise to the challenge. And our people have risen to the challenge like I could not have imagined and I'm just so grateful.

• 52:06Nilay Patel?

  That's great to hear. You, you've still gotta manufacture the products. I'm assuming you've gotta get people out in a facility. People are still traveling. You've gotta put them in boxes. You've gotta ship them. That's all not happening in this country. How are you managing that side of it?

• 52:20Speaker 06

  You know, and, and this is where, you know, our team in China started working from home in January and they were coming back to the office in March when we all went and started working from home. So in, in a, there was a bit of a silver lining there, which is the people, you know, all of us going and started work from home could see, hey, wait, China has been through this. They've weathered it and now they're back. There is light at the end of the tunnel and I think we've done it. Tremendous job of getting creative so that some of those things could be done at home. Some of them are have to be done at manufacturing. Remember, we've also increased the complexity in our manufacturing and supply chain since it's not just China, it's Malaysia. Then they went through a shutdown. So there's been tons of complexity, but the team continues to find creative solutions.

• 52:59Speaker 06

  And we've just made sure that we're putting safety first. So we don't, we've said, if you feel uncomfortable in any of the situations, you don't have to go and we'll figure it out. And the team's done an awesome job at doing that, but it's complicated, right? And it takes a toll on everybody. And, um, but you know, I think we come out of it stronger and probably more creative. Quite frankly, in going through all of this, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but you really, you know, you really see what people are made of through this. And Sonos people are just awesome from everything I've seen through this.

• 53:30Nilay Patel?

  Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Patrick, for joining us again. Thank you for finally taking my one product request and putting out this Atmos soundbar. I've only had one product request for like two years.

• 53:40Speaker 06

  That's it for 10 years. You can come back at 10 years and give me your next one after that.

• 53:43Nilay Patel?

  I had to come up with a new surround format.

• 53:45Speaker 06

  I do. I couldn't come back until we had this product. So I'm glad to bring you your product. And it's always enjoyable to talk to you. So thank you. I appreciate it. And I hope you, everybody at The Verge and everybody out there, uh, stays safe and healthy through everything we're going through. You know, just like we've seen in China, we will get through this. We will come out the other side and, uh, yeah, just hope everybody takes care through it.

• 54:08Nilay Patel?

  Awesome. You too, man. And I'm super excited to listen to this thing. Thank you for being here.

• 54:12Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 54:13Nilay Patel?

  All right. My thanks to Patrick Spence, CEO of Sonos. I'm going to have to think of a new product to ask him for repeatedly so he can announce it and come back again. That's my entire plan here. We'll be back on Friday at the chat show. We've got some big guests coming up. I'm pretty excited about it. Stay tuned. Tweet at me, I'm at Reckless. Would love to hear from you. Love your feedback. We'll see you soon.

• 54:33Speaker 08

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger: Fresh for Everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.

• 55:04Speaker 09

  Everyone's got a hard question about AI. Your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way, because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claud.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claud.ai/spotify.