How To Handle Difficult People & Take Back Your Peace and Power

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — Today, you are getting research-backed strategies for handling difficult people. In this episode, you will dive deep into how to respond to disrespect, gaslighting, and exactly what to say when someone tries to brush off their behavior with, “I was just joking.” You and Mel are both learning from trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher, who is known for his straightforward advice, tips, and tricks on how to communicate better. Jefferson is here to teach you exactly what to say (and what not to say) when you're dealing with a difficult person: If you’re tired of being talked over, dismissed, or made to feel less than, it’s time to learn the techniques that will help you walk into any conversation with confidence—and walk away with your power intact. You’ll learn how to: Stand up for yourself without being unlikable. Handle disrespect without losing your cool. Stop arguments before they start. Set boundaries without feeling guilty Reclaim your confidence in seconds Handle fake apologies and toxic conversations like a pro After today, you’ll have the exact tools to protect your peace, reclaim your confidence, and navigate any difficult conversation with ease. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-267 Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 0:00 Welcome 4:38 Understanding Difficult Personalities 9:10 Techniques for Dealing with Conflict 23:27 Handling Belittlement and Disrespect 28:36 Dealing with Rude Behavior in Public 31:05 Responding to Difficult Personalities 35:09 Understanding Gaslighting 42:15 Communicating with Narcissists — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  Have you ever walked away from a conversation or a meeting at work and felt smaller?

• 0:14Mel Robbins?

  Like somehow after the conversation, you realize, wow, my confidence just got chipped away a little. And as you think about what just happened, maybe you realize someone interrupted you or corrected you or dismissed what you had to say. You know, there's this one person in my life who literally rolls their eyes as I'm talking and they think that I can't see it, but I can see you at the end of the table rolling your eyes as I'm trying to say something. Or have you ever gotten one of those apologies where someone was like, "I'm sorry, that's how you feel." And you think, wait a minute, was that actually an apology? No, that wasn't an apology. That was belittlement.

• 0:56Mel Robbins?

  And today, trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher is here in our Boston studios and you and I are going to dive deep into how to respond to disrespect, to gaslighting, and exactly what to do when someone says, "I was just joking." One takeaway at a time, you're not only going to learn exactly what to say, but also how your words or using silence help you reclaim your confidence, your voice, and stand your ground.

• 1:31Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It is always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I also want to take a moment and acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that could truly help you live a better life. And I love what you and I are going to be talking about on today's episode because we're going to get to spend some time today with the incredible trial lawyer, Jefferson Fisher. I wouldn't be surprised if you've actually seen him online because every single day, millions of people watch the videos that Jefferson makes from the front seat of his car in between his court cases. And meetings with his clients. Jefferson's strategies for handling belittlement, gaslighting, fake apologies,

• 2:16Mel Robbins?

  toxic behavior, and difficult conversations are game changers. Boom. He is so good. I'm so excited. So let's get into it. Jefferson Fisher, I am so thrilled you're back on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 2:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:31Mel Robbins?

  And congratulations on your new book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.

• 2:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you very much. I'm very proud of it, very excited to help a lot of people.

• 2:40Mel Robbins?

  Well, I can't wait to dig in to the topic of how you can communicate effectively and hold on to your power, particularly when you're dealing with difficult people, challenging situations. But before we get into the tactics, can you just talk to the person listening? And if they take everything that you're about to teach them from your new book, and they put it to use in their life, what are they going to experience?

• 3:11Jefferson Fisher?

  They're going to experience a sense of control in knowing who they are and who they want to be. And by that, I mean, they will have a sense of control. They can stand their ground in that next conversation. They can handle that difficult, toxic person in their next conversation. And even more so, they'll be able to navigate who they want to be and where they want to go in their life, simply by the words that they say next.

• 3:37Mel Robbins?

  What I love about your work, and the reason why I'm so excited about your book, is because it is really unsettling to have to deal with somebody that is a difficult personality. And I want to invite you, as you're listening to the conversation today and getting to spend some time learning from Jefferson, I want you to think about someone in your life that is really difficult. It might be an ex-spouse, and you had a contentious breakup or divorce, and you have to deal with them because of the kids. Maybe it's your mom, or your father-in-law, or a brother-in-law.

• 4:18Mel Robbins?

  Maybe you have an issue with a child, or a boss at work, just like tension, frustration. Grudges, like all these things that can really make the dynamic challenging. Because I know that everything that you're going to learn from Jefferson today is going to help you hold on to your power whenever you are going to need to deal with this person. And one of the things I'd love for you to just explain is how did the experience of being a trial lawyer really prime you and your expertise in being able to deal effectively with somebody who has a challenging personality or is argumentative?

• 5:03Mel Robbins?

  Like, how did that shape you in the way that you approached this?

• 5:07Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that. Well, this is something you know very well about. That is, these difficult personalities, when you talk to them, it's often, they're only difficult because they have a fear, an insecurity, a need. So instead of seeing it as a conflict, you see it as a bid for connection. They are wanting to feel like they can be heard, that they're important, what they say is somebody can acknowledge and care about it, versus always having a poke and pride. So when I'm cross-examining somebody, a lot of these techniques that I use has to do with, one, I understand that just because I say something, doesn't mean I have to swing at it. Just because they throw a ball, doesn't mean I have to swing.

• 5:51Jefferson Fisher?

  You just let the pitch go by. Nobody can make me say anything that I don't want to say. The same way, I don't have to respond even if they send a zinger at me. So there's that sense of control of, yeah, you can say what you need to say. That doesn't mean I need to say what I want to say. So there's this confidence that you can have from questioning people in the courtroom. Another would be understanding that, that conflict, that argument is simply a window into another person's struggle.

• 6:21Jefferson Fisher?

  When I'm representing a client and you're representing another client, a lot of the time, it's a weird occupation though, if you think about it. People hire me to have beef with somebody I don't have beef with. And then what makes it even harder is they hire somebody to have beef with me. So when you're arguing with that opposing attorney, he and I, or she and I, we don't have any problems, really. We're just taking on the problems of somebody else. And you can't, arguments aren't something to win, especially in a courtroom. You just give the evidence and the facts a voice. You advocate for those facts under the given law. So it's very different in that sense, but the same rules apply,

• 7:03Jefferson Fisher?

  that the less you say, the more powerful you sound, the more confident you express yourselves, the more you seem more confident in yourself. So it's these little tips that I like to give from the courtroom that help me understand that difficult people are just people. We can all be difficult.

• 7:23Mel Robbins?

  So, the thing that I'm already taking away, is that even viewing someone as being super difficult, or being narcissistic in their personality type, or holding grudges, or negative, or whatever label you want to put, that right there is already a problem, because you already flipped it on its head and said, "This is just a person that wants attention. This is a person who wants to be understood." And they don't feel understood, which is why you're getting all that negativity on the surface. And so if you, number one, if I'm listening and hearing you correctly, if you even just flip your viewpoint about

• 8:04Mel Robbins?

  this person to, "Hey, this is just another human being who has not the best way of trying to get themselves understood," that right there already lowers the intensity of the interaction.

• 8:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it is that mindset. If you go into it knowing or telling and convincing yourself that this person is difficult, all of a sudden you've made it difficult for you. Well, what's to stop you from thinking, "This person is somebody I need to make sure I listen to." Sometimes the goal is too high. If your goal is, "They need to believe everything that I say. They need to do everything that I do." You're never gonna get that. Instead, if you can go into the conversation with a much smaller goal, like, "I wanna make sure that they understand me. I wanna make sure that I understand them. I wanna make sure that I listen to them without interrupting. I wanna make sure that I listen to the end of their sentences." That's very rare for people to listen to the end of somebody's sentence.

• 9:03Jefferson Fisher?

  So you find that often when it's a difficult conversation, you're the one that's called it difficult. You're the one who's made it difficult from the outset for yourself. You haven't had the conversation yet. Now, you might know that person to be, tend to have personalities or behaviors that can be seen objectively as difficult, but often when you hear that person say, "You don't listen to me," what they're saying on the inside is, "I want to feel heard. I want you to connect with me. I want to be understood."

• 9:34Mel Robbins?

  How do you deal with somebody who's, who whenever they get overwhelmed or upset, they're like, "Nobody ever listens to me," like, "Brrrrrrrrrrrr." How do you respond to that?

• 9:42Jefferson Fisher?

  If they come in hot and heavy, like that, "Nobody ever listens to me." Well, then you're gonna be the opposite of that. You're going to pose questions for them. I mean, for example, that "never," that's one word that's an extreme you're going to attach. "I never listen to you." I wanna make sure I understood that. "I never listen to you." Typically, they'll draw back from that because then you use an extreme. They know you have to listen to them. Then you go pull at another layer. All right, is it that you feel that I never listen to you? Or is it that I actually objectively never listen? You go it again. "Okay, so I, you feel like I don't listen to that." Well, that's, let's talk about it. Let's, let's keep going. It's helpful to know.

• 10:26Jefferson Fisher?

  "I'm here. I'm listening. I'd like to change that." You, you just find ways to go at it again.

• 10:33Mel Robbins?

  That was masterful. And I know I'm not the only one, Jefferson, who is now going to take that script and start using it with people in their life. And I'm thinking of some, one person in particular, who whenever they get upset, that's a thousand percent what they say. And I now know, because I'm learning from you, listen to the end of the sentence, take a beat. You also did this, this technique that I noticed, where you lowered when I raised my voice. And you slowed the conversation down by simply slowing the pace of the question.

• 11:18Mel Robbins?

  And you're asking the question, not like a jerk, like, "Oh, so I never listen to you?" Because that's the other thing that people do.

• 11:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 11:25Mel Robbins?

  Versus saying, "I never listen to you?"

• 11:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. It's powerful stuff. If you can, anytime when somebody is going super high, they're yelling, you go even slower. You will lower your voice, because then you're the one who sounds calm and in control. And they're the one that seems like they're on the extremes. Their voice and their brain and their ear will hear that, and they'll start to lower it. Because they don't like to be out in the extremes. So they'll start to slow themselves down. What I teach my clients is that the person that you see is often not the person you're talking to. And what I mean by that is, I've had a client, not a client, but a witness that I was deposing.

• 12:14Jefferson Fisher?

  And he was ugly with me, and he was big and brash, and didn't like any of the questions I was asking him. And I asked him the question, "So what are you struggling with today?" I said, "Let's just set aside the case. What are you struggling with right now?" And he went on to tell me about how he was having a hard time with his mother. He had just had to put her in a nursing home, assisted living. His father's passed away. His brother was out in the oilfield. And he was the only one to take care of her. And he was just nervous about it. And he had been getting letters from attorneys. And so this big guy who was in front of me, even though he was being ugly to me in that conversation, I knew that the person I saw was not the person I was talking to.

• 12:59Jefferson Fisher?

  You have that when every conversation you have, yeah, you see this person and they look mad and they look ugly, but who's the person you're talking to? It's the person behind the counter, the person who waits on you, the cashier. Every one of them is a chance to have connection with that person because who you talk to right then affects how they talk to everybody else. It's a ripple effect. It's how you talk to your kids affects how they're gonna talk to their kids, how you talk to the person who takes your order. If you're rude to them, well, they're gonna have a harder time talking to the people that they love when they go home. So it is a, it's a big circle of life in a way.

• 13:37Mel Robbins?

  Well, it's also what you're pointing to is you have power.

• 13:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:40Mel Robbins?

  And we don't, we don't think about it that way. We get so wrapped up in the stress of our day-to-day lives that you forget that your words and your energy has tremendous power and we give it away to other people. And particularly when somebody is a negative person or they're a difficult personality and you start to brace and you believe they have more power because of their bravado or their whatever, or the fact that they're constantly gaslighting you or erupting, or they pull the silent treatment, all of these things that are wildly emotionally immature, but feels like they have more power over you.

• 14:23Mel Robbins?

  What you're saying is, no, no, no, no, no. You always have power.

• 14:28Jefferson Fisher?

  And I can tell the listener right now the kind of power that they will have.

• 14:32Mel Robbins?

  What is it?

• 14:33Jefferson Fisher?

  So I have, I've had people, one of the ones recently I had was, there was a wife who emailed me and said, "I had an argument with my husband last night and I used one of your phrases, and that was to de-escalate a conversation or argument. I could have done better." She said, "Without hesitation, he said to me, 'I could have done better too.'" She said, "In our 18 years of marriage, he's never said that to me." Just little phrases that you can find to de-escalate that. That's true power that you can have in a relationship. In terms of the ripple effect that the true... You have a power to affect people you will never, ever meet. And it's a wild thought, but it's true.

• 15:16Jefferson Fisher?

  I had somebody email me, this is probably two months ago, who said, "I am somebody who helps with couples at foster homes." And these parents were arguing, and I used one of your tips on how to communicate with them to get them to stop arguing and agree on something that will forever change their kids' lives. I'll never meet these kids. They'll never know me. They will probably never know the guy who helped them and emailed me. But it's just little things of what you say today will truly change the future of other people you'll never, ever meet. People who have autism who can now make friends

• 15:58Jefferson Fisher?

  just by how you say certain things and how they can communicate. It's... Everything about you can be compressed into what you say next, and it's a beautiful thing.

• 16:07Mel Robbins?

  What was the phrase that you are hearing that has someone with autism communicate better?

• 16:16Jefferson Fisher?

  They weren't sure exactly how to talk to their friends. They were always afraid that they... They were always left out of it. And so it was this mindset that I tell them is, "You just weren't supposed to be there, and that's okay. You weren't supposed to be there." And that mindset, this father told me, helped his son understand if he wasn't invited, it just meant he wasn't supposed to be there. And that he found different ways of going, "Well, this is where I need to be." And finding people who wanted to spend time with him, but he was feeling really hurt that he wasn't getting invited to that party or that thing. And so it's this mindset of, "That happens, it's okay. You just... You weren't meant to be there. You were meant to be somewhere else." And that made them feel that he could make time for friends who cared.

• 17:02Mel Robbins?

  That's beautiful.

• 17:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Mel Robbins?

  Really beautiful. So what was the phrase that helped the parents stop arguing in the foster situation?

• 17:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Is this something we have to agree on? So a tip that I use is, is this something we have to agree on? Usually it's not. It stops arguments. It doesn't matter what the topic is. If you need to, you find that you're yaying in over the small stuff, the little things, that often leads to the biggest arguments. You'll get in these big arguments and go, what were we even, how did this even start? How do we even get here? Often you can put all that to rest when you just even ask, is this something we have to agree on? If it is, you can ask again, is this something we have to agree on right now? So there's a timing element too, because often people push arguments on you when you're not ready. They'll push conversation on you when you're not ready. You got five minutes?

• 17:58Jefferson Fisher?

  What they really mean is, hey, do you have about 48 minutes for me to tell you about something that you have no time for and your brain's locked into something else? And so they often push their own timing on you. So part of that standing up for yourself is defending your own time perimeter.

• 18:13Mel Robbins?

  Can you?

• 18:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Mel Robbins?

  Give me an example.

• 18:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure. So let's say you and I are choosing, let's say, the best detergent. Okay?

• 18:25Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 18:26Jefferson Fisher?

  That's just the first thing that came to mind.

• 18:29Mel Robbins?

  So let's say you're standing in the aisle at the grocery store. And you grab detergent. And your spouse then questions the detergent.

• 18:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:40Mel Robbins?

  And these are these little things that become big things.

• 18:43Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's what happens. The biggest, typically, your biggest arguments stem from the smallest little inconvenience, especially if you're married.

• 18:50Mel Robbins?

  And you're saying that you're standing there in the grocery aisle and you say, do we have to agree on this right now?

• 18:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. Is this something we have to agree on at this moment, right now? And they go, no.

• 19:03Mel Robbins?

  No, it's not that big of a thing.

• 19:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, but in that moment, it's just if you're not thinking about it, you start getting worked up.

• 19:09Mel Robbins?

  And what I love about it, though, is it's a very kind way to cue someone else that they're pushing an argument on you.

• 19:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely.

• 19:18Mel Robbins?

  What is the best way to handle the knock, knock, knock, you got five minutes? And you know that with this person, it's 48.

• 19:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm.

• 19:28Mel Robbins?

  How do you respond to that to protect your time?

• 19:30Jefferson Fisher?

  If the automatic feeling within you is no, then the answer is no, you don't. It's setting it later. I don't right now.

• 19:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Can we schedule this for tomorrow? What's your next week look like? Find ways to push it out because what you'll find is that five minutes they needed right then, that issue gets solved without you. They didn't really need it. They just came to talk.

• 19:52Mel Robbins?

  Amazing. Jefferson, I need to take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors, but I have a couple more questions about this topic of how you deescalate. And I'm curious if you have more strategies. And so let's hear a word from our sponsors. Make sure you share this episode with anyone in your life who could really use it, which is basically everybody. And don't go anywhere because Jefferson and I will be waiting for you after a short break. And we're going to keep on talking about how you deescalate conflict and arguments in a minute. Stay with us.

• 20:31Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. You and I are getting to spend time with the amazing Jefferson Fisher. So Jefferson, you mentioned that there are a number of phrases that you teach people to help you deescalate. Are there others that come to mind other than, is this something we need to agree on right now?

• 20:50Jefferson Fisher?

  There are phrases, I'd say, of to help pull down defensiveness. Because often when I say something, the tendency, the default is for somebody to get defensive. And that's, that's natural. It's your, it's biological. It's your body going, oh, I perceive a threat. I'm going to send it right back. That's what fight or flight is in that element. The fight is I will throw hard words at you. I want words to hurt you. Or if you're running from it, it's, I gotta get out of here, slam the door. I gotta hang up, finding different ways to deescalate situations. And what I like to tell them is you tell them what you learned. So after listening to you, I learned that this topic is important to you.

• 21:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Or you tell them that they've been helpful. That's helpful to know. Simple as that. Or you tell them what you agree on, using the word "agree." That does not mean you have to agree with what they said. It just means, they just need to hear that word. In other words, instead of focusing on the content of that conversation, it is, "I agree that this is something we need to talk about." "I think I agree that this is a conversation worth having." Boom. Like that right there, all of a sudden pulls down their defensiveness. They heard the word "I agree." They heard that this conversation is we're talking about. Great, they don't have to continue to push and feel defensive about it. Not to keep proving to you on something.

• 22:11Mel Robbins?

  It goes back to your earlier point, that it's a person that doesn't feel like they're being heard.

• 22:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 22:17Mel Robbins?

  Huh.

• 22:18Jefferson Fisher?

  And if you need to like shift away from that, the, "Is this something we need to agree on?" "I like, I could do better." "I like, maybe so. Maybe you're right." Those are two that I use often. If I ever get an insult, maybe, or a rude comment in the litigation world, someone makes some kind of offhand comment, I say, "Well, maybe you're right." "Maybe so." Who am I to say? It's that element of, "I get the control entirely." "What you say, is that gonna affect me or not?" "I have entire control over that."

• 22:54Mel Robbins?

  You forget that, because, you know, what people say, it does have an emotional impact on you. You are going to react, but you get to choose how you respond.

• 23:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, especially if you always pick it up and carry it.

• 23:07Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 23:08Jefferson Fisher?

  So it comes to taking things personally.

• 23:10Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 23:11Jefferson Fisher?

  For example, a quick tool for that is, what I tell myself, is I'll just say, "Put it down, Jefferson." When I'm taking things personally, I'm picking up what nobody has asked me to carry. I'm choosing to carry it. Before I know it, I'm just, I can't even carry it anymore. And to me, how often you take things personally is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people.

• 23:35Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 23:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Meaning, if you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt. It's it's heavy. It's a heavy proposition if you never give somebody the benefit of the doubt instead of just waiting to see if truly that offhand look meant to say something to you. We recognize it as that, I thought you were mad at me.

• 23:55Mel Robbins?

  Yeah. You immediately internalize it and you have no idea what's actually going on.

• 23:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, somebody you pass by somebody in the hallway and they didn't say hello, you know, they must be mad at me. No, they were just focusing on other things in their life.

• 24:08Mel Robbins?

  How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're like picking on your weight or they're constantly like, are you still single? Like, you know how people, like especially people that you're close with have a way of belittling you?

• 24:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 24:23Mel Robbins?

  What do you do in those situations?

• 24:26Jefferson Fisher?

  When somebody is belittling you or giving you a insult and that hurtful comment, you make them repeat it because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, I need you to say that again.

• 25:02Mel Robbins?

  I'm thinking of like using this with a couple of people in my life.

• 25:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Mel Robbins?

  We need to role play this.

• 25:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 25:10Mel Robbins?

  I'm trying to think of a scenario.

• 25:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Like you just said right there, you're still single.

• 25:15Mel Robbins?

  I need you to repeat that.

• 25:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, you so exactly, I'm not gonna want to say that again because now that spotlight is on me.

• 25:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Then also what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, did you say that to hurt me?

• 25:32Jefferson Fisher?

  And now it's this mirror that they feel like, why did, why did I say that? Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. But if often I can just repeat what they said. So if somebody says to you, oh, so you're still single?

• 25:51Jefferson Fisher?

  I need you to say that again.

• 25:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Most likely, they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. I'm still single. That's what you asked me? And all of a sudden, they realize this isn't fun. They're not going to ask that kind of thing again.

• 26:09Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 26:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Or you just ask that question of, did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Oh, no, no, no, no, I didn't say that. What I meant was, and all of a sudden, they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground.

• 26:21Mel Robbins?

  Wow. This is like very eye opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it. And I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. Like I can think about like our daughter out in Los Angeles. And every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, is that new? And I'm thinking in my mind, where do you get the money for this? You know, like that kind of thing. And then she's like, yeah, I thrifted it. And there's this little tiff thing, but if she were to say to me.

• 27:07Jefferson Fisher?

  If she was to ask you.

• 27:08Mel Robbins?

  Are you trying to embarrass me?

• 27:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. Are you trying to insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?

• 27:16Mel Robbins?

  Because you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface. But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

• 27:25Jefferson Fisher?

  It's that mirror.

• 27:26Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 27:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 27:27Jefferson Fisher?

  And so it takes away the power of their insult.

• 27:30Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 27:30Jefferson Fisher?

  When you can take all the fun out of it, you take all the oxygen out of their room. And they realize that they're not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

• 27:42Mel Robbins?

  Holy cow, how do you respond to disrespect?

• 27:45Jefferson Fisher?

  A lot of silence. So often, if you just wait 10 seconds. That you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. And that makes it very clear, because what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, the same way with belittling, they're wanting a reaction. They're saying this to get something out of you. Because in that moment, they're feeling something, whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is, you're understanding you're not gonna, you're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward. And then you're going to say something to the effect of,

• 28:27Jefferson Fisher?

  "That's below my standard for a response." And then all of a sudden, they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. "That's below my standard of respect." Something as simple as that. All of a sudden, you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me. And I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

• 29:00Mel Robbins?

  What do you do? I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother. And I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother." And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant, like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. What do you, is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit? Or is being disrespectful? You know what I mean? Like, somebody's getting testy at the airport, or, and they're with you. It's not a complete stranger?

• 29:44Mel Robbins?

  Is there something that you could say to somebody in that situation?

• 29:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it, and you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be a person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before, my grandfather came with me to Walmart. This is a terrible time. Uh, he was, he was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much." Being overly, "Hey, I understand. Thank you." Making that eye contact with this other person. This other person's not having a good time. And then you have that conversation, I had to have that conversation with my grandfather.

• 30:29Mel Robbins?

  How did you do that?

• 30:30Jefferson Fisher?

  I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of if this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you. If you don't change the tone of what you're talking to people, Papa, I can't, I can't, I can't come. And so it very was, uh, what, what, what am I saying? You're not being respectful to people. Yes, I am. I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people. And it's this having this, this conversation where they need to, it's the people you love and often you have to be their, their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him.

• 31:13Jefferson Fisher?

  And that means I also have to make sure that I need to put, I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct of this is how you're talking to people.

• 31:20Mel Robbins?

  Has he changed?

• 31:21Jefferson Fisher?

  He has. We also just don't go to Walmart.

• 31:24Mel Robbins?

  Oh my gosh. Um, do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions? When you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

• 31:34Jefferson Fisher?

  My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like when you are feeling threatened, maybe, maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My body says, "I feel threatened about this. There is a threat. I need to do something. Either defend myself or get out of that situation." And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath. Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder. You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away. But if you breathe.

• 32:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I say a conversational breath. You take that, let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're gonna have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be misquoted. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is gonna win it. Because if you think you can win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just, you lose your credibility. You've, you've lost that connection. I mean, what have you got? Now, now it's just, you, you want awkward silence between the two of you? You still have to possibly work with this person,

• 33:03Jefferson Fisher?

  live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next few days before you make up. So you find ways to always just kinda control your, your breath and your shoulders.

• 33:15Mel Robbins?

  And shoulders, like pull them back?

• 33:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, no, you're putting them down. Often when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's, it's tension makes you cranky.

• 33:24Mel Robbins?

  Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be. All of the power is on your side of the table. And using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less, so they have less to work with.

• 33:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 33:54Mel Robbins?

  Lowering your voice, deciding what you're gonna respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't, and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And when you start to own that side of the power, You realize you're actually always in control.

• 34:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it, because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that understanding of, I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to. And so it is this knowing of, I can RSVP, no, I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's, you've all been, we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

• 34:50Mel Robbins?

  Me.

• 34:51Jefferson Fisher?

  It's the

• 34:52Mel Robbins?

  That's what I'm realizing.

• 34:53Jefferson Fisher?

  It's the person who's, who's least like in the know of what's happening in the heart of that, that company versus the person who says less is often the person who's the most confident, because confidence is very quiet. Insecurities are very loud.

• 35:11Mel Robbins?

  That is such an empowering way, Jefferson, to think about being more confident. I just love that. And one of the other things that I love that you talk about is gaslighting. I know it's one of the topics that you discuss a lot online. We get a lot of questions about it. And so that's what we're going to dig into after we hear a short word from our sponsors. Do not go anywhere because Jefferson and I are going to lead you through what you need to say and do the next time someone gaslights you. Stay with us.

• 35:46Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I'm here with Jefferson Fisher. Aren't you loving this? I am loving this. So let's dig into a topic, Jefferson, that you get a lot of questions about. And that is, how do you handle someone who's gaslighting you?

• 36:00Jefferson Fisher?

  There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over. I see things differently, or I remember things differently. Period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it. Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting, trying to challenge your truth. I remember things differently. Period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them? I remember things differently. In my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just trying to make you go certain directions everywhere but the truth. To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm.

• 36:41Jefferson Fisher?

  I remember things differently. Period. That often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it.

• 36:53Mel Robbins?

  There's somebody in my family who just loves, like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke?

• 37:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:01Mel Robbins?

  They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of a opinion out there. And it's so offensive or like eh, that you kind of stop and think, you don't even believe that.

• 37:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 37:17Mel Robbins?

  Like, you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody.

• 37:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:22Mel Robbins?

  Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently?

• 37:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Certainly one, you could easily say, I tend to have another approach, I think differently about that. It's okay to say, I don't have an opinion. Or if I had an opinion, I give it. That's pretty easy of, I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure. Finding ways of just being what I like to call the wet blanket.

• 37:44Mel Robbins?

  The wet blanket, just like on a fire?

• 37:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 37:47Mel Robbins?

  Wet blanket on the fire. Because I, there are times where I literally just want to be like, you're a complete idiot. And then I think, why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, then you grab it and you're, and next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic.

• 38:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:09Mel Robbins?

  And I... Have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

• 38:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, that's, that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I

• 38:20Mel Robbins?

  I don't know. Like, I feel like maybe I'd be more powerful and calm. Like, you're such a nice, kind person. Like, I can't even imagine going up against you in trial, because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom. And, you know, and most lawyers are very, just

• 38:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I've had that comment.

• 38:37Mel Robbins?

  You have?

• 38:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that they didn't, they, I made it difficult, because I never gave them an enemy. So I never gave them somebody I did not like. Same way for a jury. As long as the jury likes you, they, yeah, you, you're 90% there.

• 38:53Mel Robbins?

  Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

• 38:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Mel Robbins?

  No, seriously. Don't give someone else an enemy.

• 39:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Mel Robbins?

  Like, if you go, and this isn't about, like, being somebody

• 39:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Soft.

• 39:06Mel Robbins?

  who is soft.

• 39:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Mel Robbins?

  And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and your energy, and who is worth your time, and what is worth your energy, and what conversations deserve a response, and which ones deserve silence.

• 39:24Jefferson Fisher?

  I like to call it being in the pocket.

• 39:26Mel Robbins?

  What does that mean?

• 39:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, and, um, I'm a musician.

• 39:30Mel Robbins?

  Oh, really?

• 39:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I play drums, and

• 39:33Mel Robbins?

  For real?

• 39:34Jefferson Fisher?

  I play several instruments, but yeah, drums.

• 39:35Mel Robbins?

  I can't imagine you behind a drum set going absolutely Did you ever have long hair?

• 39:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I did, yeah. I had the whole, like, yeah, I've been to multiple bands, there's a whole thing.

• 39:45Mel Robbins?

  Oh, wow. Okay, now.

• 39:49Jefferson Fisher?

  The part of it

• 39:50Mel Robbins?

  This is your point. The person you're talking to is not the person that they are.

• 39:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly, yeah. Um, and it's this idea of, when you're in the groove, and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great, you're not lagging, you're not loud and forceful, you're not calling attention to yourself, you're just in the pocket. I know I don't have to do anything crazy, I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to being the

• 40:17Jefferson Fisher?

  The peacekeeper, there is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation.

• 40:25Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 40:26Jefferson Fisher?

  But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, "This is a difficult person," it's just a difficult problem for the two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning, and they were feeling it before they even entered the room, that the problem is not you, instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're gonna come away knowing that you have all the control in that situation. And that's a really empowering thought.

• 41:01Mel Robbins?

  How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style? Somebody that is always about them. I'm thinking about a number of friends that are divorced and have an ex that they share kids with, and you're getting the long texts and a lot of make wrong. And how do you deal with somebody that is, first of all, never gonna change? And second, you have to figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids or because you work for this person.

• 41:42Jefferson Fisher?

  There's an initial mindset you need to have, and that is know when you're in their game. It's a game of either praise or provoke. If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So know first when you are on the board and you are playing their game.

• 42:12Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 42:13Jefferson Fisher?

  So number one is you don't have to play that game.

• 42:15Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 42:16Jefferson Fisher?

  You do that by two, adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid-fire text exchange. They text, respond the next day. You need to wait? Most people, maybe they need to be reminded, there's not some kind of stop clock. On text exchanges, you're required to respond. There's no delay of game. You get to choose when you respond and you're gonna do it when? When you're ready. I'll respond to you when I've calmed down. I'll respond when I'm ready. You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also wanna stay neutral. And that means you say very boring things. Like, "I understand."

• 43:01Jefferson Fisher?

  "Noted." "Good to know." "Got it." These short little things that are gonna give them nothing to feed on. Because if you think you're going to solve all your problems in giving them that paragraph of a text and you think you really just gave them a hundred words of pure amazingness that's gonna shut them down and change your life, you're kidding yourself. Because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it and not acknowledge anything that you said. So less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

• 43:36Mel Robbins?

  Wow. How do you broach with somebody who you care about who's like in a bad mood? Or they're really intense and they're that way a lot? Because I've tried to and it feels like poking a grizzly. Like, are you upset about something? Or, you know, like, is there, like, why?

• 43:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I don't think there's a better way to approach the, "Are you thinking about something?" It's this idea that whatever they say, you need to be a safe space for. Because I always wanna be the person that my kids can come to with problems. And if I teach them that when you come to me and you're hurting or you're in a bad mood or you're grumpy and I don't like that and I don't accept that and I don't want that, when you're in trouble, don't come to me. They're just, you're not a safe space for that. They'll go be real somewhere else. I can be grumpy. I can be in a bad mood. And so often, you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, they should be in the safest space of their life

• 44:43Jefferson Fisher?

  to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well, you probably don't wanna ask that question, but you might wanna say, "How are you feeling?" But I'd be judge, I'd be careful on assuming that they're feeling a certain way. Now, if we want to tweak this and say, what if somebody sends you something that's rude? Like a rude comment, you read an email and it's rude. The kind of thing that you're like, I can't believe this. Can you believe that somebody would send this? Hey, so and so, come here, look at this. You see what they read? Can you believe that? It's the, did you mean? Did you mean to sound rude?

• 45:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you mean for that to sound disrespectful? The did you mean is always a great tweak and you can use that as well.

• 45:32Mel Robbins?

  Did you mean?

• 45:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound so harsh?

• 45:35Mel Robbins?

  Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

• 45:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. But it really does help. Anytime you find something that, uh, we use this a lot is that, did you mean for that to sound short? You get that text, you know, I do that even with my dad. Uh, cause my dad's like the one word texture.

• 45:54Mel Robbins?

  So is him.

• 45:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. So I have to say, did you mean for that to sound short? There's some people that you just shouldn't, you shouldn't text with or email. Just pick them up and call them. There's people that you're like, oh, they send the rudest email, but when you talk on the phone, they're so pleasant. You just know that's not their best mode of communication.

• 46:11Mel Robbins?

  How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

• 46:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, believe it. There's a, a sense that goes to who you are and just your philosophy in life. And I believe that, that most people are, are good. They want to do good. And there are people in this world that are, are truly hurting. And they came in hurting long before they met me. And so there are certain things that I know I could say that could be a trigger for somebody that I know nothing about. And I don't know why it's a trigger. I don't know their childhood. I don't know that one thing that they're insecure about. You ever said something and you said something about their job? And all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you think your job's better than mine? What you're hearing is just insecurity. It's, that's, that's what you're hearing.

• 47:01Jefferson Fisher?

  So you have to find the way, my dad would tell me, the issue that they're giving you is not the real issue. Meaning there's always something that's layered underneath that. And you just have to be curious enough and patient enough to find out.

• 47:15Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I love that. What are your parting words?

• 47:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm. I'm going to tell people that when you, the next time you are in a difficult conversation with people, number one, I want you to say what you have to say with control. It means you're going to control your breath, control your volume, control your body and understand you don't have to say anything that you don't want to say. Two, I want them to say and speak with confidence. It means using an assertive voice that doesn't give over apologies that mean nothing. Or say, "I hate to bother you," when it means nothing at all. And three, I want them to say things to connect. In other words, say what you mean and mean what you say. If you need to deliver bad news, deliver it. If you need to give a compliment, give it. And at the end of the day, they need to follow their heart and be true.

• 48:03Mel Robbins?

  Jefferson Fisher, thank you.

• 48:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you for having me.

• 48:07Mel Robbins?

  You're freaking awesome.

• 48:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Thanks, Mel.

• 48:09Mel Robbins?

  I want to make sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And what I loved about the conversation today is you were reminded of the truth. You have the power. Stop giving it to other people and to especially people that are difficult. Your power is in your response. It's in your breath. It's in what you say and when you say it. And I know that you now feel empowered based on everything that Jefferson just shared with you today. So please go use it and I'll see you in the next episode.

• 48:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's say the best detergent. Okay? I don't know. That's just the first thing that came to mind.

• 48:59Mel Robbins?

  Has he changed?

• 49:00Jefferson Fisher?

  He has. They also just don't go to Walmart.

• 49:05Mel Robbins?

  Now you're making me insecure. I talk too much. I vent my feelings in texts to certain people. Oh, my gosh, I got a lot of work to do. I feel like I need to have all of your little phrases, the Jeffersonisms, I'm going to call them, on a card and I would go through it as part of my morning routine. Now, remember, Mel.

• 49:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Pause somebody. Yeah, pause for a second. Let me.

• 49:31Mel Robbins?

  There's one in here.

• 49:34Mel Robbins?

  You're freaking awesome.

• 49:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Thanks, Mel.

• 49:42Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 50:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Stitcher.