The Hero We Don't Deserve, Memnon and Other Answers to Your Questions

Liv answers listener questions about the Ethiopian king Memnon, the missing pieces of the Trojan War, and more. This episode (and Emily Wilson's recent review of Nolan's Odyssey!) have inspired another rambling Odyssey episode which will be in your feeds soon after this one. AVAILABLE NOW! The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:43Liv Albert?

  Hey, it's Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Everybody, listen up.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade-in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 2:12Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv,

• 2:22Liv Albert?

  who frankly would really like to just stop hearing about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey like entirely. I, ugh, I'm saying this because, I mean, this episode is a Q&A to start off, so you can expect to hear answers to whatever questions I have from all of you. I do think an enormous amount of them revolve around the Odyssey, so I'm also just going to be talking a bit about the Odyssey because, I mean, it's, it's been out for a couple of weeks now and it shows no sign of slowing down, especially when it comes to the broader discourse. So

• 3:04Liv Albert?

  maybe I'll let the questions get us in. That's what, I'll, I'll, I'll let us, I'll let us get in with the questions before I just start ranting. For one, I just want to say that a couple of these questions, I think I mentioned this in another episode, but a couple of these questions are asking about lost and/or, you know, I guess, extra or different parts and pieces of the Odyssey, whether they are lost books or fragmentary passages or what have you. And I don't have the most satisfying answers on those yet. I'm really hoping that, I'm going to send emails today to a couple of people that I'm hoping will come on and have conversations with me, especially in light of, of the movie, and who are experts

• 3:49Liv Albert?

  and hopefully can answer these questions. Slash, I want to do some more research. I really don't know what, what I think you're all latching on to and what I've probably mentioned, and a couple of them mentioned that I am the reason that you're asking these questions, is that, I don't know offhand, I don't think that there are any like entire books of the Odyssey that, that we know are lost. That's not to say that it's not possible, but, I mean, and I don't think that that is true, especially just because both the Iliad and the Odyssey are complete at 24 books. I don't think that there's any like big piece that is missing. What there are, are different versions. And not to say like enormously

• 4:29Liv Albert?

  different versions, but different, like, basically, what I know of it, to just give you like a somewhat satisfying answer before I get these experts on the show. And, and again, I don't even have a specific question, but I have two. One of them here, I'm going to read this one from JoJo Phillips, who says, "I know Homer's Odyssey is just one telling of the story. Do we know anything about the history of the Odyssey and different versions of the story and how it got passed down and how we have Homer's version?" So I want to kind of answer that, even though there is a bigger picture that I'm not getting at just yet. But essentially, we know it's hard. Okay, so the Odyssey and the Iliad are obviously

• 5:09Liv Albert?

  the only singular texts that survive from that early in Greek history and the overall cultural history that is mythology. That we only have the Odyssey and the Iliad. The next oldest is Hesiod's Theogony, which, as we all know, is very much not an epic poem in the same way. Like, it is an epic poem, but it, it is nothing like the Odyssey and the Iliad. They are pretty singular. That said, the versions that we have, in terms of like a physical, an actual physical thing, as human history, I think the oldest version

• 5:49Liv Albert?

  is probably only a few hundred years old in anything complete. What that means is that we're always working off of something that has been copied and copied and copied in order to reach us today. So, the version that we have of the Odyssey is not from ancient Greece. It's, it's from considerably later, and the only reason it survives is because it was copied down. There are fragments of things that have the Odyssey or the Iliad on them and which are way older, but not like the entire text, if that makes sense. So the only surviving like entire text of Homer that we have are only a few hundred

• 6:31Liv Albert?

  years old, whereas bits and pieces are way older. And every once in a while, there are cases in those bits where something will be slightly different from the version that we have that is, you know, a few hundred years old. So what that means is just, is just that there were variations, right? Which of course is going to be true of anything that is being hand copied from like 3,000 years ago. You know, like that is, that's just how it works, right? It's like the game of telephone a little bit. It's, things change, get sort of shifted, even just little bits and pieces. So it's not that we have, like,

• 7:14Liv Albert?

  it's not that we know that there are like entire chunks or like entire books of Homer that are missing. It's just that we know that there were variations, and there were probably way more variations than we know, and just like little variations, a detail here or there, a little extra bit, not like the entirety of the text. Those are pretty singular when it comes to just like these Homeric texts. And, I mean, the, the question of, of how we have Homer's version is enormous, like I said, because the only thing that survives, right, like only a few hundred years ago. But we know that Homer was the primary source

• 7:56Liv Albert?

  for this kind of thing as far back as the ancient world. So it's not like there was like an alternate Homer that we know is lost. Like, the Greeks also believed that Homer was their kind of peak, right? Again, like whether he was real or not, doesn't matter. They also, though, conceptualized this idea of Homer as the be-all and end-all. They had a lot of other poets, but it was, Homer was peak, no, no question. So it's not like we have a different thing. We do have other versions of the story, but they survive in like ways, like say, like Sudo Apollodorus, right? Who is, his book of the sort of Library

• 8:38Liv Albert?

  of Greek Myth, it's often called, that is just sort of a quick rundown of all Greek myths. So it does have Odysseus's story in it, but it is in no way like a quote-unquote "different" version than Homer, because it's like a quick, you know, it's just a couple pieces. So it's not to say that we have like different versions or we know of that. It's more that there were just variations, and that's just the nature of something being that old. Like, I don't know the full details. I just saw a lot of the headlines a few months ago, but I think they recently found on, on some cartonnage, which is the wrappings of, of mummification in Egypt. I don't know if it was like from mummification or not,

• 9:22Liv Albert?

  hopefully not. But they recently found the oldest fragment of Homer to survive, and it's this piece of papyrus that happened to have like a, a chunk of the Iliad on it. So it was like somebody was buried with passages from the Iliad written on this papyrus. And the reason why this sticks in my memory so much is that it was the section that is the, the Catalog of Ships, which is just hilarious. The idea that someone would be like, "My favorite part of Homer and I want to be buried with it for eternity," is the time that he listed all the ships is honestly just priceless. But what it means is that we know-

• 10:07Liv Albert?

  At the very least, that the Catalog of Ships is that old, or what have you. And this, this papyri, papyrus is not nearly as old as Homer. It's, I don't, again, remember the dates, but if it's papyrus, it's, it's probably more like Hellenistic or something. And so it's just interesting, but we know, you know, that, that this section is, is as old as that, or, and I don't know if they've compared it to the version, you know, that is their sort of, quote unquote, canon version, or what have you. But it's just all to say that, I mean, when it comes to anything in the ancient world, there is no, like, finite answer on anything, or like, finite version. There's just sort of like, the acknowledged version that we have,

• 10:48Liv Albert?

  and that is because it's what we have, right? And so there are going to be like, little variations. I think probably, like, a Greek prof would know so much better. I'm sure that, you know, when it comes to plays and stuff, I know, you'll often, when reading a translation, that there'll be like, a little chunk where somebody will say, like, either there's a piece missing here, or scholars think that, you know, maybe this was added later, or all these different things, right? Like, people have, the, the experts have developed all of these theories. I'm sure you could read for days and days about how they determined what, what the Homeric version that we acknowledge now, you know, came from. So there is so much more to it, but that is

• 11:30Liv Albert?

  an incredibly long-winded answer. So all to say, I was, I'm going to be having conversations with more people. It's generally fascinating, and it's something that I don't fully even know, like, how to research, especially with how the internet is these days. I have to, like, retrain myself how to research now that Google is, like, completely non-functional if you don't want to use shitty AI and get stupid answers, because AI does not know what it's talking about. So all to say, more on that, but it is generally a fascinating topic.

• 12:07Liv Albert?

  Okay, jumping back into your questions. I have an audio one here. Thank you all for sending some audio in. Remember that you can submit your questions in audio or text, or however you so choose. Questions, comments, thoughts, feels, at mythsbaby.com/questions. This one comes from Ally. I'm just gonna play it for you. It is, it made me smile. This is, this is when I think, oh, if I was a more organized person who was interested in social media content, like, this is where it would be good for me to do a reaction video. But instead, I'm just gonna tell you all that I acknowledge that, and I'm not doing it. But listening to this question made me very happy, so here it is for you all.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Hi Liv, my name is Ally. I keep trying to record this, but I keep messing up. So this is, like, my 15th take. We'll see if it gets better from here. But I've been thinking a lot in which the ways that Greek sources often have been selectively passed down to us. Shout out to the alphabet plays for somehow finding her way to us. That was just beautiful. But for most of the sources selectively handed down. And, you know, my modern sensibilities are often in a sense of shock, awe, and disgust by the fact that we have so much about Jason, of Jason and the Argonauts infamy, and Theseus, but not Memnon. And I probably, I understand why that is. But

• 13:34Speaker 03

  also, Jason's such a loser comparatively to Memnon. And I just wish that I was able to read the ancient Greek text myself about him, instead of some Roman texts. So, thinking about that, in the way that I feel like, you kept this loser over this, like, this amazing, rosy-fingered Don, son of a warrior. Like, it's, it's shock, it's shocking to me. Do you think that there are any sources that are hanging around today, that the ancient Greeks might be like, you kept that? You kept that? And I know it could be comparatively hard to tell, because we don't know a lot of what we've lost, but I, I don't know, just was thinking about it. Let me know. Hope you have a

• 14:19Speaker 03

  great day. And, yeah, thank you.

• 14:23Liv Albert?

  Ally, delightful question. Thank you. I so agree, firstly. Memnon is so interesting, and it is so frustrating that he doesn't exist outside of the Roman kind of rewrites. So to the listener, just a reminder, that Memnon is a hero. He's an Ethiopian king who comes in during the Trojan War. He helps the Trojans after the events of the Iliad. He comes in and is one alongside Penthesilea, who's an Amazon queen who also tries to come help the Trojans.

• 15:03Liv Albert?

  Both Memnon and Penthesilea become, like, Achilles is big, like, I'm Mr. Big Greek Hero Man, and I defeated these big, amazing Trojan heroes, kind of vibes. And so both of them are, these characters who come in so late and are fricking interesting. But specifically, these are characters whose story only survives in the Roman epic, The Fall of Troy, as compared to, obviously, like, the Iliad. Whereas we know that, particularly for Memnon, it's probably also very true of Penthesilea, but I can just offhand think of examples for Memnon. We know that the story of

• 15:47Liv Albert?

  him being this Ethiopian king, hero, who comes in during that period of the Trojan War and tries to help. We know that that was a very old part of the myth. It is, especially when it comes to his death, it's often depicted in art, because Memnon was the son of Don, like you said, Ally. He was the son of Don, and so he does get this kind of, like, hero's death, that, that some of the other heroes as well get, and it is depicted on a lot of pottery. And so, we know that this was, like, an ancient story, and yet, we have nothing, except from Rome. But of course, the specific part here, that Ally is mad about, and you're not wrong, is that, you know, conversely,

• 16:31Liv Albert?

  we have all of this stuff about Jason, and all of this stuff about Theseus. And I would just say, as the sort of explanation for that, it's like, it's not satisfying, but it makes sense, if that makes sense. Like, when it comes to Jason, firstly, Jason is quite unique in that he is this very early origin hero. Like, so we know, like, in the Iliad, I'm pretty sure, the Argo, no, in the Odyssey, definitely, the Argo is mentioned, the ship. And so I think in the Iliad, too, there are references to it having already happened. So, the Jason and the Argonauts is a story that was already pre-existing when the Iliad was developed. So we know that

• 17:16Liv Albert?

  as a myth, it is so old. And it is also unlikely, especially as compared to Theseus, who I will get to, it is unlikely, I would argue, I don't have backing on this, but I would argue it's unlikely that Jason's was meant to serve as later propaganda, whether intentionally or otherwise, because I'm not necessarily suggesting that they, like, knew they were adding in propaganda after the fact. But I don't think that's likely, because Jason isn't tied to a region that was seeking particular importance, in, in the same way as, as Theseus. Jason is really very oddly, like, a very founding origin myth. He's just, like, also, like, a dud. And I think

• 17:59Liv Albert?

  that it's funny, especially in English, because I think that the name Jason really does not do him any favors, just the fact that it is one of the only names, if not the only name, that comes, like, becomes an English name that is, like, almost identical to the ancient Greek. Obviously, Greek did not have a J, but otherwise, like, the name is the same. Whereas, usually our modern names are, like, modern variants. Like, I will always take the chance to remind you all that the name Dennis is the modern equivalent to Dionysus, like, it's a direct line. Dimitri,

• 18:39Liv Albert?

  Dimitra, that's all Demeter, right? But, but the names are different. They objectively sound, like, more modern, whereas Jason is just Jason. And so then you read the myth, and you're like, no, it's just Jason. And so I think, like, really specifically in English, and with the North American connotations of the name Jason, like, no offense, Jasons, except, I don't really care, that I think that really adds to it. And so the fact that he then is also a guy who we can so easily make fun of, because he's just kind of, like, along for the ride of his own hero experience, just really helps. And it makes him seem, like, more ridiculous than I think that, you know, reasonably he was. Theseus, on the other hand, like, obviously, also, you know,

• 19:23Liv Albert?

  I have impacted a lot of how you all see Theseus. Theseus is not broadly considered to be a disappointing hero. It's just that he is. But he is, as we know pretty well, like, pretty not, a pretty clear propaganda. I don't want to say intentional, because again, like, I don't think that they were necessarily intentionally being like, we will propagandize the future people. But Theseus is propaganda. You can tell because, one, I don't believe his name at all made it into Homer, or if it did, there's, like, a singular reference, and it's often suggested that, you know, these references are added later, because by the time the version of Homer

• 20:06Liv Albert?

  that was being recorded, was being recorded, is, I think it's broadly acknowledged to have been the Archaic period, when it was finally, like, put onto some kind of preservation structure, even just in the way that, you know, they, they weren't writing it down to then have people, like, read it. That was not how people did it. No one just sat down and read something. They didn't even have, like, the mass production available to, like, have, you know, you couldn't, anything that they were creating would have been very clunky, because how many words you can, like, fit on it, right? You know, when you're not thinking about paper, let alone, like, modern writing implements.

• 20:47Liv Albert?

  And so it was recorded in the archaic period, probably in Athens, because by the archaic period, Athens is the superpower. But prior to the archaic period, Athens is kind of like just there. And so the Athenian references in the Iliad and the Odyssey are incredibly minimal and are likely kind of infused later. And again, whether intentional or not, it's just sort of how it ended up working, because you're working with this story that by the archaic period, when it's being recorded, it's probably been told for like, definitely hundreds of years, just like a question of how many hundred. And so it's this thing where it's kind of like, I can't even, we just don't even have an

• 21:26Liv Albert?

  equivalent. Like, we don't have culturally, a story that is, you know, only oral, but it's just hard to imagine. But essentially, it's just, you know, this story was pre-existing. But naturally, the Athenians would have been like, and, you know, where are we? And so whether it was like, make us seem more important, or just be like, hey, shout out, you know, like, it's more the idea of that. I think shout out is a really good, you know, reference, actually, because that's what it feels like, right? It's like, shout out, Theseus, like, because he's barely there. So that is the difference. And it's, Jason, the name Jason is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for that guy. And I, and I think

• 22:05Liv Albert?

  that's funny, more than anything. But I will say about Memnon, you know, he, he's interesting. There are very, very few sons of goddesses that get much in the way of story, you know, like Achilles is the main one. But even Achilles, like, there's a lot in the story of the Trojan War, not just the Iliad, but the, the overall story of the war, there seems to be like, a real emphasis on the sons of goddesses. And that is like, otherwise incredibly rare. Like, I can't, if I think, I can't really think of any,

• 22:45Liv Albert?

  actually, that are outside of the Trojan War. Whereas within the Trojan War, we have obviously, very famously Achilles, who is kind of this standout. And there appears to be, you know, there's so much more to Thetis. And so maybe he and Thetis really are these like, major standouts. But in addition to Achilles as the son of Thetis, we also have Aeneas, right? Who's the son of Aphrodite? And then Memnon is the son of Dawn. And I guess the other guy, there's Sarpedon, he's only the son of Zeus. So, but still, like, Memnon, Aeneas, and Achilles, and I think there's got to be another that

• 23:25Liv Albert?

  I'm not remembering. I think, feel like Dawn has another, maybe I'm crazy. But that alone is pretty major to have these like, hero kings, who are the sons of goddesses. And so I don't really have like, more to say on that, other than I just think it's particularly interesting, because outside of the Trojan War, it really does not play that much. And yet, it seems to be this, I, this, like, major element. Maybe it's that, you know, Achilles as the son of a goddess needs to be defeating these other sons of goddesses, because he does kill Memnon. And he doesn't kill Aeneas, but Aeneas is wounded, right? And it's a whole thing. And, I mean, obviously, I also think that there is like, some kind

• 24:07Liv Albert?

  of mythos around Aeneas, that we don't have, because he is just, in the Greek, like, a kind of, really intriguing character, where I could see why the Romans were like, I think this was like, ready-made for us to, to turn into propaganda. Because, like, you know, why was he there? Why was he the son? He's the only son of Aphrodite, or rather, like, the only mortal son of Aphrodite. He's, anyway, I could go on about Aeneas forever, but I'm going to return to your questions.

• 24:49Liv Albert?

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• 25:31Liv Albert?

  really great basics. Like, they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets, and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14 karat gold jewelry, that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And I mean, if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting

• 26:12Liv Albert?

  rid of the middlemen, you know, making things more affordable? So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 26:41Speaker 04

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• 27:49Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad, and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 28:21Speaker 05

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• 29:08Liv Albert?

  Okay, I have another voice note, which I find to be utterly delightful. This one comes from Amanda, who was on one of the group trips last year, and, and always sharing really delightful things. I just have to say, I love that you all just like, share stuff with me a lot of the time. A lot of you will know that I, I mean, I respond often, and I'm very keen. Actually, before I play this note from Amanda, I just have to tell you all that somebody DM'd me. I got it this morning. And like, okay, the Odyssey, and I will get into this a bit more in a bit, but like, Christopher Nolan's Odyssey is haunting me. It's haunting me in a way that I, again, I will

• 29:51Liv Albert?

  get into, but I so actively trying to not, not take in the discourse all the time. Like sometimes, fine, yes, absolutely. It's my job. I do want to talk about it with you all, but it is. I, I didn't know how to prepare myself and thus I am very unprepared for how much that like my passion in like my work life, but also generally my life would leach into like everything in the world. Like I knew this movie would be big, but I just really wasn't ready for how big and for how like even people I follow on social media who have absolutely no

• 30:35Liv Albert?

  connection to Greek myth and are usually my escape. Like even they're talking about it. And the reason why it's annoying to me is that most people are a fan, um, and that bums me out, but, and so I'm just like trying to avoid it, but it is coming up in social media everywhere because it's fucking huge. But anyway, that's all to say. I woke up this morning to a DM from a listener and this, that was the one way I want to take it in right now. It was perfect.

• 31:06Liv Albert?

  And it was literally just a meme of, of Penelope's character saying, where is my husband? And then above it was Lonely Islands. I'm on a boat. And as a peak millennial, I just want you all to know that I love I'm on a boat. And I have a real soft spot for Love Island or Love Island. I mean, I also have a soft spot for Love Island, for Lonely Island, um, to the point where literally like three days ago, uh, I was with my roommate best friend and I literally dropped something on the ground and was like, hey, do you remember that song?

• 31:47Liv Albert?

  And then I made her listen and watch the video. I threw it on the ground. Anyway, these are really niche references, um, but I need to acknowledge that that is like the one piece of Odyssey meme content that made me legit happy in the, in the past little while. It was like, oh, that's only joy. I don't have to be annoyed by, by that. Um, anyway, that was a really long-winded story for, uh, why I'm going to share Amanda's comment, voice note with you all right now because it's a delight.

• 32:21Speaker 06

  Hey Liv, this is Amanda and I was laughing at your comment about the catalog of ships and how it's a list of Athenian patrons. And yeah, yeah, totally right. I can absolutely hear viewers like you right at the end of it. And I also think of it as someone's notes from one of those really awkward, um, icebreakers where you have to go around and say a fun fact about yourself. And I can just imagine this guy being like, oh, hi, I'm Infamous and, uh, my dad is, uh, this guy and my grandpa was this guy and on it. Uh, yeah, thanks. Bye. And I love it.

• 33:00Liv Albert?

  Honestly though, like that, that is on point. Like the catalog of ships. Also, I'm just thrilled. I hadn't listened to these voice notes before starting this recording, so I'm thrilled that I had a follow-up ready for the catalog of ships. Um, and it is that, right? It's not, it's like, yeah, it's like, hi, my name is Liv and I'm from, uh, Victoria, British Columbia and a fun fact about me, like it is, it is that, right? It's meant to be kind of, or I imagine it's meant to be like representation. It's a shout out. It's like, uh, sponsors at the end or, you know, thank you, or it's,

• 33:40Liv Albert?

  it's also a, a way to connect, uh, regional mythoi, mythos myths to, to the Iliad. It's a way to connect, um, you know, city-states that maybe didn't get a mention generally, but want to acknowledge that they were there. It's a way to weave in like, hey, this guy is, uh, the son of this guy and he was maybe related to Heracles or, you know, like it's the, this way of, of bringing everyone in to the cultural history that is the, the Iliad and the Odyssey. And, and it's really satisfying it when you think about it that way. And also like, it's just so

• 34:25Liv Albert?

  real and human to, to think that people wanted that, right? They wanted to see themselves in these epics. They wanted to see their town represented, their local hero, their king, like they wanted that. And isn't that just one of, one of so many delightful reminders that, you know, ancient people were people in the same way that we are and, and they had the same like wants and desires and they just manifested differently.

• 34:57Liv Albert?

  But like shout out Amanda, shout out, you know, to all of my listeners who, who submit these things and thanks. Like it's that, right? It's, it's a shout out. It's an acknowledgement. It's a thank you. It's a, hey, we were here. Don't forget about us. Us too. Or, you know, and especially as someone who comes from Canada, which is like one of the most forgotten, uh, you know, nations. I even, I think about this all the time. There's, you know, like, uh, um, oh, who's, who else is going? Paris Paloma. This is my reference. My Paris Paloma has an incredible tour going around North America and it's called the US tour. We're here too, but you know, she, she's calling it the US tour and I don't, I respect her. I love her.

• 35:42Liv Albert?

  Like I'm not gonna, you know, but other countries exist. And so like, if there were a catalog of ships, Canada would out here be, being like, hey, hey, we're not Americans. Hey, hey, hey, us too. Like even on a like obnoxiously like colonial perspective, we want to be like, hey, we're, we're in the Commonwealth too. Like it's not, it's not just Aus- Australia, you know, like it's a funny thing, but it's such a human reminder. It's such a human need to want recognition for who you are and where you come from. And I just think that that alone is so delightful.

• 36:23Liv Albert?

  Okay. And I actually was going to shift over to talking about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey more specifically, um, but I realized I want to do that as a technically separate episode, um, just so it frankly, there's going to be a lot of people who are looking for the Odyssey and I want to be able to be like, hey, this, another one is, is about the movie. Um, so we're going to wrap this up with one more sort of mostly unrelated question from one of you listeners. And then I'm going to, uh, have another episode that you will see available, uh, very shortly, if not immediately, uh, that, that is more specific to commentary about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey. And on that note, here is a note

• 37:06Liv Albert?

  from Kelda. Uh, I, I want to say we know, I know Kelda. Um, Kelda is one of a handful of people who I have now seen at every one of the events I have done in London and it makes me so happy. It's so especially fun when I can recognize people and know that I've chatted with them and, and interacted with them before either. I mean, I also have like a creepy, probably autistic, uh, memory slash my brain just takes in things to a really frustrating degree. And I say that because along with Kelda, who was at, uh, the launch that I did in London in June for the Odyssey, um, which feels like it was a hundred years ago. And now I'm realizing was two months ago. Anyway, in addition to Kelda,

• 37:51Liv Albert?

  there was another person, Andy, Andy Tully, who, who came up for, to get their books signed. And I was like, you were in my DMs and had a really nice interaction and have seen them commenting since. Um, and I just, I love it. I love when I either recognize you because you've been to a handful of events, uh, even though I haven't even been able to do that many and yet so when I could recognize people, it's extra special. Or I especially love when I know people's handles. Another person, uh, who has come to a couple of events in London and I'm like, oh, I know your handles, Peacock Pete. And I want to acknowledge, this is a shout out. Look at that. This is me doing the thing that everyone wants, even in the ancient world, which is just acknowledgement and recognition. And so to

• 38:35Liv Albert?

  the few people that I now have gotten to know through these London events, like Omega, thank you. And Kelda's one of them. Kelda's delightful. We had a lovely chat after the event, um, last time. And I want to say, Kelda, I'm only playing, I'm only playing the, the second audio. Don't worry, like the one that you wanted because Kelda sent me another audio responding to my question about nymphs, which I really appreciate. And I just want to say that I haven't listened to that one yet because I'm saving it for when I'm in that headspace. So I've only listened to your, to your question episode for now. And I say that just so that, uh, you know, that I'm not, not acknowledging the other one because I'm very excited to hear that too. Anyway, here's Kelda.

• 39:15Speaker 07

  Hi Liv, this is Kelda from the UK. Um, and I do have a question for you. Um, as always, want to just thank you for your podcast and yeah, bringing us all such great material and something to put a smile on our faces as well. You are always, yeah, so attentive to all the details of Greek mythology. So, um, and I love, I really, really love your retelling of the Odyssey, um, with all the pretty pictures, but the way that you summarize everything and the detail that you gave to all the women in

• 39:54Speaker 07

  the story, like big pat on the back. Thank you for bringing us that incredible, um, retelling.

• 40:03Speaker 07

  I wanted to know as someone who also likes to write about the ancient Greek world, um, Liv, what sources do you use or resources? Um, and maybe Michaela could answer this as well. Um, in terms of finding out what clothes they wore, what, um, what they use to, um, to light the, light their houses at night, for instance, did they use oil lamps? What did that look like? Um, I keep reading about like Peplos, Hymation, Keton in terms of clothing and, um, yeah, I just, um,

• 40:46Speaker 07

  do not have a classical background, um, from schooling or anything. So if you have any websites or books that you could recommend to make that sooner or more authentic, um, please let me know. Love you guys. Bye.

• 41:06Liv Albert?

  And another great question. Thank you so much. Um, this is one I don't have like the most satisfying answer, but, but I wanted to, to kind of acknowledge it anyway, because this is where I acknowledge that I am also struggling in, um, on the new, the new internet, which just no longer can easily like find things or things that are not just like all the same AI slop over and over and over again. Um, it's, it's tough. So I would say almost certainly, uh, going to like a big reference library and just scouring the shelves for books on

• 41:48Liv Albert?

  clothing or just like household things specifically is probably your best bet. Specifically looking for things like daily life, you know, um, books on daily life, books on the home, stuff like that. You're probably going to be looking at like very like deeper research level stuff, but you can be doing, you know, some basic skimming. I mean, I will say too, like on a surface level, Wikipedia is really good. Once you know a handful of the things too, then it's easier. Like you, you know, you've named chiton and, and peploi and, and stuff like that. So, you know, though, like, once you know, like that some clothing has those names, which yes,

• 42:32Liv Albert?

  to be, to, to reinforce you, like a peplos is one of the most common dresses that a woman would wear. Um, a chiton is like shorter. It's more what the men would wear. It's like their little, their little dresses and their little short skirts. Um, because you remember that pants are for girls. The Persians wear pants. Um, one of the silliest things about Christopher Nolan's Odyssey is just all of the pants. I was honestly, just all of the layers. They looked very warm. Like, did they know they were in Greece? Honestly, couldn't tell. Um, but you want to be more accurate than Christopher Nolan. So do that research. It's smart. It's good.

• 43:16Liv Albert?

  I think when I'm reading or retelling, one of the biggest things that takes me out is that lack of those details. And the details are just so great. Um, you know, when it comes to the house, like oil lamps were huge. Oil lamps were almost certainly the main way they were lighting things. And, and once you know, I mean, once, the thing about a lamp, much better than the clothes, unfortunately, is that those things survive. And so I'm, Makayla is unfortunately not with me to answer this right now, um, but I'm going to put out a call to her because you know, Makayla, she loves a lamp. Oh, does that girl love a lamp?

• 43:59Liv Albert?

  Um, and, and, but the thing is, yes, they were, this is now, we'd just be like, let's talk about random shit in an ancient Greek household. Oil lamps were absolutely the vibe. And so start Googling those, Google like ceramic oil lamp, ancient Greece, because they survive. So you can see, because the lamps are so cool, the lamps that are preserved, they have some delightful shapes. I mean, if you, depending on what kind of, you know, how, what kind of realm you are wanting to paint, the Romans also had some really cool lamps. They loved a flying dick lamp in Rome. We're talking just a large erect penis with wings and sometimes little legs.

• 44:42Liv Albert?

  Just letting that sit for a second.

• 44:45Liv Albert?

  That's it. That's a very common lamp in Rome. They were weird. Um, but the Greeks had some really beautiful lamps. They would have lamps sometimes where there would be like places for flames, like all the way around. So you'd get these lamps that there's like, there's like a bowl kind of in the middle or a thing in the middle. And then there's like all of these little holes all the way around. And that was because they would have, they would be burning oil and then the little, they would have like wicks in all of them. And so you would get like lots of lighter. They would have hanging lamps and things like that. So I think like, one of the things I do look at most, for all that I don't have like, you know, a handful of books off the top of my head to name for those things. But what I tend to look for are the artifacts. I love the artifacts.

• 45:30Liv Albert?

  Um, and so that's why I say lamp so specifically, but also like pottery. That's one of the things that I was having a lot of fun with, you know, when my brain was wanting to work on fiction. We'll see if that ever comes to light. Mental health, am I right? Um, but one of the things I really love working off of are these, uh, are pottery pieces and, and lamps and just these things that we know they had and which really ground you in that ancient world. The pottery I think is key. We have this idea that like, they had a lot of amphorae. And you're like, no, they had like 40 different pottery shapes that were used for all of these different things.

• 46:14Liv Albert?

  And they are fascinating and had like, really, the pottery, I think really grounds you. Imagine, I mean, there were, they had pots that were like four feet tall that would store grains or, or things like that. Or when they had the enormous pithoi, like really narrow, long pots, you know, that, that have like, um, uh, like, like a, basically just like a, a pointy end so that you could kind of lean it easily. Use human momentum to, to lean it and pour, because you're working with something that's like three feet tall, like those are the elements that I find really ground me

• 46:55Liv Albert?

  in that ancient world. So artifacts, look up artifacts, but also just like wander. I mean, I know that you live close enough to London. So for anyone else who does like wander the British museum and, and take in all of the shapes. And then you can cross-reference things too, right? So if you're wandering and you're like particularly drawn in by a piece of pottery, by a shape, by a decor, like you can then search afterwards, you know, look, look those up and, and see what more you're kind of gleaning from it. Um, but overall, I mean, I just, just do that research. I want to say, cause it's, it, I think it really makes all the difference.

• 47:38Liv Albert?

  And also it's just fun and fascinating. And remember that, you know, the, one of the most important contributions that, that women made to the ancient world, other than creating all fucking human life, was creating all human clothes. Like everyone would have been naked without them because the men did not want to do that womanly work. Um, and also the men just love being naked together. Let's be frank. But you know, the, the fabrics, the clothing, the, the decorations, the colors. Color research would be another really interesting place to go. Tyrion purple.

• 48:17Liv Albert?

  I think about Tyrion purple all the damn time. It, you know, it's this, this very rich purple color made from grinding up these particular like snail shells. And it was famously from Tir, um, which is being bombed to shit. It's southern Lebanon. Um, and, and you know, those colors meant things. Colors really meant things back then. And I think that's a really interesting place to, to look. So I don't know, this is so rambly, um, but it's such a good question. It's so interesting to be, to be learning about that stuff. It's one of my favorite things, just this daily life. And so I guess, yeah, like look for books on specifically daily life and the home.

• 49:01Liv Albert?

  But also on women, because you're going to get more things about clothing and fabrics and stuff, because those were the people who were doing it.

• 49:10Liv Albert?

  All of that really. But I think, uh, you know, uh, I think unfortunately in the, the wider, well, not unfortunately, we love a library. But it's just the internet used to be able to also give you stuff like a library. But now it's not really like a library. Now it's like a, a pot of hot garbage. Um, so I, you know, I actually will say as, as an anecdotal example, um, I, I'm working on some various nonfiction ideas, uh, you know, specifically about nymphs, but women broadly. If, if you all can believe it, I'm just really interested in, in women of the ancient world. And I just want to know more. I know, I know.

• 49:53Liv Albert?

  Die of shock. Um, but I spent a day at the Toronto Reference Library like a month ago and I didn't even, I didn't even manage to figure out like how to actually search their catalog. So instead what I did is just wander the stacks until I found stuff that I, that I wanted. So I was wandering the stacks until I figured out where ancient history was. And then I was in the Greek section and okay. And then I was just picking books off the shelf and it sounds, I mean, it's, it's, it was honestly kind of, it was a nice reminder to me that like, that is so still available to us for, for all the, the terror of, of the current AI internet.

• 50:38Liv Albert?

  Wander the stacks of a library. And I just picked out a handful of books and brought them over to a table. And one of them that I picked out, it's called like Women of Ancient Greece. It's by Pierre Brule. It's in translation and I have, uh, it, it is a book I'd, I'd never heard of, but I plucked it off the shelf and I started reading and I was like, oh, it turns out I, I want to know everything about this book. And I mean, in my personal situation, I then Googled and was like, well, I need to buy it so that I can read it and highlight the shit out of it and all of that. And so I found like a used copy. It's out of print. I found a used copy, sent it like, you know,

• 51:18Liv Albert?

  it's a reminder, I guess, um, to return to the library. Let's all return to physical books where AI can't manipulate pre-existing content. What a time to be alive. What a time to be alive. All right. That is what I have for you when it comes to these specific Q and A's for today. I, I want to thank you all for, um, listening and just generally being very, uh, welcoming and, and accepting of the few rehares that I've been playing. I mean, most of them have been, been, um, bonus. I know, I, I really,

• 51:58Liv Albert?

  I gotta be honest. Um, I was unprepared for how Christopher Nolan's Odyssey would affect me in hindsight. I think I maybe could have prepared myself like a little bit more. It, it has been, it has been like emotionally draining in a way that I could never have predicted, could never have predicted. And maybe I should have, I don't know. But it has, has really.

• 52:25Liv Albert?

  Been, yeah, just been really emotionally draining on me because of how sad I am at, at, at what I see as, as a real abuse of the women in Homer in a way that really harms women today at a time when things are already bad and, and getting worse for women. And I just, yeah, I mean, I knew, I knew it was going to be Western propaganda. I knew I wasn't going to like it. But I, I was not prepared for the hurt. I knew the women wouldn't be good.

• 53:09Liv Albert?

  But I didn't, I didn't expect them to hurt like they have. And it has really made me struggle with, with overall, like, working on the subject because I've been doing this for 10 years. I have been talking about women in myth for 10 years.

• 53:32Liv Albert?

  And it, it used to be that it seemed like things were turning around. That things were getting a little bit better, that representation was getting better, that we were learning more about the women. And while generally that's true, especially in, in, in scholarly circles, like in the acad- actual academic world that is still functioning, I think that is true. But in the wider cultural world, the shift has been really negative. And watching that as someone who is,

• 54:11Liv Albert?

  is far too sensitive, frankly, uh, has, has been, has been a struggle. I'm just really feeling for,

• 54:22Liv Albert?

  for my gender and, and also I wanna, I wanna make very clear, like, trans people are affected, you know, even more.

• 54:32Liv Albert?

  But, but it's been really bad. It's been really bad for, for the, the overall female population and, and everyone who doesn't fall into the category of man right now. And, yeah, it's just, you know, I started this podcast in, in Trump's first year. And, and I was like 28, I guess, 29, whatever. And, and it's just, it's been, it's been an interesting decade, I guess. And like, obviously, like, the world has seen it. But the myth side culminating in, in, in this Odyssey and frankly, and again, I'm gonna do an episode about it.

• 55:14Liv Albert?

  So I'm not gonna keep going too long, but, but the reaction of men and really specifically the reactions of men that up to this point I understood to be real feminist allies.

• 55:33Liv Albert?

  Their reactions or lack of reaction to what, what Christopher Nolan did to the, the female characters in the Odyssey has really been a blow to

• 55:48Liv Albert?

  how I function in a, in a, as a woman in a world of men. And I'm just, I don't wanna, I hate them. Sorry, not all men, but it's literally always a man.

• 56:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah. So I'm just exhausted is all to say that the emotional toil of the Odyssey was something I literally never in a thousand years could have predicted. I was like, I know this will be emotional. I know this will weigh on me.

• 56:20Liv Albert?

  I just, I, I didn't expect him

• 56:25Liv Albert?

  to do that to Helen. I,

• 56:29Liv Albert?

  it really just sucks the air out of me. Anyway, more on that in another episode. Oh gosh, let's talk about this movie is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangos is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer who will be bringing you all history content very soon. And who hasn't seen the Odyssey and I, I kinda love that for her. I kinda love that for her. Uh, so that music is by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network. Oh gosh, we're trying theoretically. It's just the world is on fire and it's like really hard to be creative while that's happening.

• 57:13Liv Albert?

  But here we are, here we are. I do it for the ancient women. I do it for them. I do it for them. I am Liv and I love this shit. I don't love the men that interact with it a lot of the time. But I love, I love it. I love it. It being the ancient world and all of its wonders and horrors.

• 57:41Liv Albert?

  I'm Liv and I love this shit. Thank you. Bye.

• 57:55Speaker 05

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• 59:07Liv Albert?

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• 59:52Liv Albert?

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