Pod Insights The MeatEater Podcast Ep. 893: A $6 Million Marlin, Fake AI Wildlife News, and Killing a Colorado Wolf About this episode Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en and the MeatEater crew discuss: The punt gun video is imminent; hipster Brody; the lack of chill from a lakeside tiki hut owner; the killing of a "protected" wolf in CO; how AI misinformation has infiltrated wildlife news; a life changing marlin out of the Big Rock tourney; elk tag tax fraud; and more.
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Transcript 12,462 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:38 Steven Rinella? Welcome to the news show. This week, we've got a lake access dispute in Wisconsin that you really need to pay attention to. We got a new word, neo-native, that you really need to learn. A ranch hand in Colorado kills a wolf, and that needs to be okay. Seth catches a 919.9-pound blue marlin, or at least he'll tell you about one. AI is being used to make up and push fake wildlife news. Randall digs into an elk scandal, as well as some elk BS and more. But first-
2:18 Steven Rinella? We never do this.
2:19 Speaker 06 Yeah.
2:20 Steven Rinella? From the news pile.
2:21 Speaker 06 Hmm.
2:22 Steven Rinella? From the paper news pile.
2:23 Speaker 06 It's nice. Oh.
2:25 Steven Rinella? Mixing it up.
2:25 Speaker 06 It's like old school.
2:26 Steven Rinella? Well, I never read the mail that comes in the mail.
2:29 Speaker 06 Hmm.
2:29 Steven Rinella? I'm gonna cut this one short. This guy, he's a kid. He's 13. He says, but now to my main point.
2:36 Speaker 06 I like that already. Well, I miss some context.
2:39 Steven Rinella? Yeah. But now to my main point, I would love for you guys to do your best at not cussing on air. I really don't enjoy going to bed with Steve's son of a bleep and Randall's mother bleep in my head.
2:53 Speaker 06 Oh, I wasn't on the list. That makes me happy. He'll someday appreciate that.
2:57 Steven Rinella? He says, every time you swear, you should put a hundred dollars and donate it to a college bass fishing team.
3:03 Speaker 06 Oh. Hmm. That's a good idea. That is a good idea.
3:06 Steven Rinella? Piper Nicholson wrote, he's a little kid. You can tell by his writing.
3:12 Steven Rinella? Anyways, he wrote this nice letter. I mainly took note of the envelope. It says, PS, I named a possum after you.
3:20 Speaker 06 Steve the Possum?
3:23 Steven Rinella? So thank you very much to Piper Nicholson. Uh, oh, our punt gun, our, uh, our punt gun video is finally coming out. Years ago, we bought a punt gun at auction for $20,000. You're probably sticking here and just talking about the damn punt gun. Um, it just took us a bunch of.
3:40 Speaker 06 Huh? The dang.
3:41 Steven Rinella? Oh, dad gurn punt gun. Sorry.
3:43 Speaker 06 Sorry.
3:43 Steven Rinella? What's that kid's name?
3:44 Speaker 06 Asa.
3:45 Steven Rinella? What's his name?
3:46 Speaker 06 I think it's Asa.
3:46 Steven Rinella? Asa?
3:47 Speaker 06 Yeah.
3:48 Steven Rinella? Sorry, Asa.
3:50 Speaker 06 My cursive.
3:51 Steven Rinella? It took us forever to make the punt gun video. Just, it's very complicated. We explained why it took so long in our punt gun video, which is out like now-ish soon. Play a clip, Phil.
4:04 Speaker 06 Oh, sure.
4:06 Speaker 06 All right, let's load it up.
4:08 Steven Rinella? So here, this shows the punt gun. There's a swear word, gotta believe.
4:14 Steven Rinella? This is the part of the punt gun video where we shoot watermelons.
4:19 Steven Rinella? That's the punt gun cocking and
4:24 Steven Rinella? that's the punt gun going off.
4:28 Steven Rinella? And that's the watermelons blowing up, a la Gallagher. So tune in now. There's a, we shoot all kinds of stuff in the punt gun video. I think you're gonna love it. Uh, Brody got a truck camper and he's got something to say about that.
4:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, I got, I posted a pic. Picture on Instagram. I don't know why.
4:43 Steven Rinella? I saw that picture.
4:44 Speaker 06 Yeah, um, so you know, people are doing this a lot these days, getting those like fold up. Truck top camper thing.
4:53 Steven Rinella? Hipster campers.
4:54 Speaker 06 Listen, they're not, um, I got a real, but I'm, yeah, I'm getting called a Bozeman hipster for getting one of those things. For years I just slept on a sleeping pad under a regular topper. I got old and uncomfortable.
5:07 Steven Rinella? It's not uncomfortable. My wife does that. She's not out there trying to prove anything.
5:12 Speaker 06 I just, look, I just wanted it. It like, I had a, a good, actually good reason for getting it. That's because if we want to take the, if we run to camp and take the boat with us. We would have to take two rigs because we have a pop up camper and a boat.
5:25 Steven Rinella? Understood.
5:26 Speaker 06 Now, we can take one rig in the boat and go camp.
5:29 Steven Rinella? It's a cost saving thing. I'm just joking. I don't think anything different of you.
5:33 Speaker 06 Yeah, um, but I, I, I think these people don't really understand what hipsters are. I don't think hipsters.
5:39 Steven Rinella? Well.
5:39 Speaker 06 Are like.
5:40 Steven Rinella? That's why he said Bozeman hipster.
5:43 Speaker 06 They'd have like a, a refurbished airstream or some shit like that. Oh, sorry.
5:48 Speaker 07 In fairness to them, Spencer, Spencer Newheart is the, the primary advocate of truck top campers in this.
5:54 Speaker 06 He was, and I used to make fun of him.
5:56 Steven Rinella? Does he have one?
5:58 Speaker 07 And he loves it.
6:00 Speaker 07 He's ever made.
6:02 Speaker 06 No, I'm looking forward to using that thing during deer season, man. I've been thinking about getting one of them Alibaba ones. It's like, it's like the same, same thing you buy here, but like a fraction of the price. Yeah.
6:14 Steven Rinella? Oh, from that like, whatever.
6:16 Speaker 06 That website, yeah.
6:17 Steven Rinella? I understand. Uh, from here forth, hear ye, hear ye, from here forth, at first light. First light has a new camo for conservation program. When you buy camo, any kind of camo clothes at first light. A percent, one percent of that sale price goes directly to our conservation partners. Okay. Uh, straight up, when you buy camo at first light, one percent. To our conservation partners. The program is called camo for conservation. So check that out too. See the new Custer's Last Stand shirt?
6:53 Speaker 06 I like it. I like the color. Very colorful, very uh.
6:55 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
6:56 Speaker 06 Pops, man.
6:57 Steven Rinella? So you know when you're taking a whiz.
6:58 Speaker 06 Got him in the heart, huh?
6:59 Steven Rinella? Yeah, when you're taking a whiz in the bathroom, you're looking at the here fell Custer. And Custer's kind of like hunkered, like he's sort of on his hands and knees dying.
7:09 Speaker 06 See his face.
7:10 Steven Rinella? But down the hill, there's a guy dying like this.
7:12 Speaker 06 Yeah. Can you fold your laptop down so we can, the audience can see?
7:15 Steven Rinella? Yeah, so Custer's kind of dying in a lame way in that painting. So when we wanted to do a good Custer's Last Stand shirt, we, we had the guy down the hill be Custer. And modeled uh, just kind of a more zippy. You know, like his guns going off.
7:31 Speaker 06 What about his long flowing blonde hair?
7:35 Steven Rinella? You don't know this?
7:36 Speaker 06 He didn't have that?
7:37 Steven Rinella? He got a cup for the campaign.
7:39 Speaker 06 Oh.
7:39 Steven Rinella? He had, he went to the campaign.
7:40 Speaker 06 Dye brown like in that shirt?
7:42 Steven Rinella? Yeah, dyed short, short hair. And he wasn't wearing the regulation hat.
7:46 Speaker 06 Yeah.
7:46 Steven Rinella? And his wife Libby Custer had a wig made with the hair he got cut off and wore it around.
7:52 Speaker 07 Yeah, Sydney's gonna do that.
7:53 Speaker 06 Kind of weird. My wife wouldn't be able to do that either.
7:58 Steven Rinella? Okay, here's the deal. I said there's a word neo-natives need to know. So a guy wrote in, I'm a PhD student in the Department of Col- uh, Department of Ecology and Conservation Biology at Texas A&M University. He's currently studying invasive species management in the Great Plains. Okay? Um, he's looking at audit diet and their impact on the Chihuahuan Desert ecosystem. That's him establishing his bona fides. In the most recent episode, number eight ninety concerning mule deer in Alaska, Steve remarked that he wasn't sure whether invasive was really an appropriate term for the mules in this situation. He says he would have to agree with me, and he put an exclamation point there.
8:42 Steven Rinella? He says, in fact, there's a new term for the expansion of native species ranges into previously unoccupied areas. This new term is a neo-native. For those taxa that have expanded geographically beyond their native range and that now have established populations whose presence is due to human-induced changes in the biophysical environment, but not direct move, not direct movement. That's the perfect word.
9:19 Steven Rinella? See, when I was complaining about there not being a word for it, I didn't even think that you'd go make one up.
9:24 Speaker 06 It's great. And he goes on, he does say like, human influence, like canals, roads, pipelines, tunnels, like we talked about.
9:31 Steven Rinella? Yeah, a neo native.
9:32 Speaker 06 Yep.
9:32 Steven Rinella? It wasn't moved, but we did something that like created the situation.
9:37 Speaker 06 Mm hmm. What would be another neo native?
9:40 Speaker 07 Well, the encroachment of woody plants onto the Great Plains due to insufficient grazing practices.
9:45 Steven Rinella? Yep.
9:46 Speaker 06 But like animals.
9:46 Steven Rinella? Kyles for sure.
9:47 Speaker 06 Kyles.
9:47 Steven Rinella? Kyles for sure.
9:48 Speaker 06 Whitetails.
9:49 Steven Rinella? Whitetails for sure.
9:49 Speaker 06 All the, all the bag we created.
9:51 Steven Rinella? Yeah, whitetails are neo natives in all kinds of new places.
9:55 Speaker 06 Yeah.
9:55 Steven Rinella? It's a great term. I'm gonna start using it all the time.
9:57 Speaker 07 Fantastic.
9:58 Steven Rinella? Whoever that guy was. Daniel, thanks, buddy.
10:01 Speaker 07 Uh, this next letter, this next email, I should say, uh, is something that we heard from a lot of folks. And this is about the Big Oaks National Wildlife Refuge in Madison, Indiana. He writes, this refuge has an amazing history of once being a testing range for army munitions. To recreate here, you must attend an annual class about the dangers of unexploited ordinances in the refuge. Um, it's open to hunting. Turkey and deer opportunities are available through the DNR's reserved hunt program, which is basically a draw. Small game hunting's open on a portion of the refuge. Um, the Fish and Wildlife Service has had an agreement with the army to continue, um, its hunting program.
10:43 Steven Rinella? Okay.
10:44 Speaker 07 But they're considering changes to the agreement due to budget problems. Um, and he's saying.
10:50 Steven Rinella? Is it expensive to let dudes hunt?
10:52 Speaker 07 Well, um, I, I think it has to do with staffing.
10:56 Steven Rinella? Okay.
10:58 Speaker 07 Um, they, they had a big rally in Madison, uh, about the possible closure of the refuge. There's an online petition that you can sign. And this guy's telling folks to write to their, uh, write to their senators and voice support for Big Oaks NWR funding.
11:15 Steven Rinella? That's funny, cause I don't think there's a day that goes by that there's not a rally in Madison. But the fact that there's a pro hunting rally in Madison catches me by surprise.
11:23 Speaker 07 Madison, Indiana.
11:24 Steven Rinella? Oh, wrong Madison.
11:27 Speaker 06 Still a good thing.
11:28 Steven Rinella? I thought I meant the Madison where you'd always have a rally.
11:30 Speaker 07 Yeah. So they it's fif- it's 50,000 acres.
11:35 Steven Rinella? Why'd I say that?
11:36 Speaker 07 There's 6,000 hunters annually that that take advantage of this and essentially they the the refuge manager retired last year. Following Rob following this guy's retirement, refuge staff were cut from five employees to a single offsite manager. And then last month, uh, there was a notification that it was going to consider severing the MOU with the army, which would close the refuge altogether. So again, this is one of those opportunities where if you don't speak up, no one else is going to.
12:11 Speaker 07 And yeah, I mean, there's not a ton of like in the Midwest, any, any acre of public land is immensely valuable. We kind of take it for granted out here, living in Montana, um, but Indiana can't afford to lose 50,000 acres of public land. So.
12:26 Steven Rinella? No, that's a huge chunk, man.
12:27 Speaker 06 Did you mention the part about him hearing Turkey shock gobbling to A-10 Warthog guns?
12:32 Steven Rinella? No, he didn't put that in.
12:33 Speaker 07 No, no, no, I was trying to get to the, I was trying to get to the call to action. He says.
12:37 Steven Rinella? Yeah, but I would never leave out the good parts just for that.
12:40 Speaker 07 It was an oversight.
12:41 Steven Rinella? Just an editing note.
12:41 Speaker 07 It was an oversight. A small interior portion of the refuge is closed to hunting because the Indiana National Guard uses it as an air to surface test range. I can personally attest to Turkey's shock gobbling to A-10 Warthog guns.
12:58 Speaker 07 That would be, that would be very interesting.
13:03 Steven Rinella? Yeah. Make your voice heard.
13:05 Speaker 06 All right. Lakers and barro trauma. Uh, we, we did that, a little piece on the, the many state record Lakers coming out of Minnesota from one fishing guide like a week or two back. Had someone write in and episode 887, you folks talked about the guy out of two harbors.
13:26 Speaker 06 I follow this charter on Facebook and see all the bunkers he, I think he meant lunkers. Um, he pulls out of the depths and it is extremely impressive. His question is about survival rates of a fish of that size being pulled out of 39 degree water from 80, 90, 100 plus feet. Deep, um, he understands the fish is being pulled up through the water column slower than trolling. But he's still got concerns about like how the fish would handle it. Uh, do you have any thoughts or answers to the, uh, the concerns of fish fatality? If you go on, uh, Facebook, you'll see a mix of wow, huge and nice. You killed it by throwing it back.
14:06 Speaker 06 I did a little research for you and it turns out that, uh, Lakers and all salmon, it's like trout, char, whatever in the, in the trout, salmon, char family, they're all, uh, less susceptible to barotrauma. Got to pull this stuff up. They're, they're called Physistomus fish. This means they possess a specialized pneumatic duct that connects their swim bladder to their digestive, digestive tract, which allows them to burp out excess expanding gas. Uh, barotrauma, you'll see in their, their guts are all blown up. Their eyes are sticking out of their head. It's pretty gruesome. Um, so this means that Lakers deal with it coming up and it also means they, they, uh,
14:51 Speaker 06 if they do get, get it, they, they deal with it better going back down. Um, but if the fish is reeled up too rapidly, they can get it. Uh, they, they can't expel that gas fast enough to keep up with the barotrauma. And, uh, this can create, uh, severe pressure on their organs and cause internal bleeding. Some studies show 20 to 40% mortality can occur when lake trout are brought up very fast from extremely deep water. Hmm.
15:21 Speaker 06 But like we hook those kings in 200 feet of water when we're halibut fishing and they come up fine, you know? They, they like run to the surface.
15:28 Steven Rinella? They do themselves.
15:29 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah.
15:30 Steven Rinella? Before you even know you got him on, he's already jumping out in front of the boat and you're like, hey, look a salmon.
15:34 Speaker 06 Yeah. Yeah. You have a bunch of slack line. You're like, you're like a night break off.
15:39 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
15:39 Speaker 06 What happened? Physistomus, they got a, they got a little.
15:43 Speaker 07 Uh, ducked in their swim bladder. It helps with that.
15:46 Steven Rinella? Okay, here, here, here's some news. I, I, I found this in, in, I, I did additional digging on this, but I, I was made aware of this in Wall Street Journal. Um, but I, but this story is a story that pops up now and then because it has to do with some, with some particulars about the state of Wisconsin's water access rules.
16:08 Steven Rinella? This story involves a dude, a dog walker that lives in a suburb of Milwaukee. And his name is Paul Florsheim. Okay. There's an old man shoe company, Florsheim Shoes. And I was like, why was I reading about Florsheim Shoes recently? Well, it turns out also reported in the Wall Street Journal. This is the odd little wrinkle. This is like a news wormhole. Hmm.
16:39 Steven Rinella? A couple of months ago, reported in the Wall Street Journal is that Trump has taken a shine.
16:44 Speaker 07 Oh, yeah.
16:45 Steven Rinella? To Florsheim Shoes. Taking a shine to him. That's like a pun.
16:52 Steven Rinella? He's taking a shine to Florsheim Shoes. Did you know this?
16:55 Speaker 07 Yes.
16:56 Speaker 06 No.
16:56 Steven Rinella? To the point where he likes to do a thing where people will come and he likes to look and try to guess their shoe size.
17:03 Speaker 07 And then give them shoes.
17:04 Steven Rinella? So that he can give them Florsheim Shoes.
17:09 Steven Rinella? Here's where the wrinkle gets even deeper.
17:13 Steven Rinella? You think of him normally as somewhat vindictive. Right? Like he keeps in mind who's slighted him and he wants to come back around and get him. Florsheim Shoes.
17:26 Steven Rinella? Is suing to get back their $20 million in, in illegal import duties that they were.
17:32 Speaker 07 Oh, yeah.
17:33 Steven Rinella? So once the Supreme Court struck down the illegal duties and you could get your money back, Florsheim wanted their $22 million back.
17:44 Speaker 07 They're also very recently.
17:45 Steven Rinella? But he lost the shoe.
17:46 Speaker 06 He still loves them. You sure about that?
17:47 Steven Rinella? This has nothing to do with the story. This is just an added little wrinkle. It says that he gets a kick out of guessing people's shoes in a court, in a, in, there's a rumor that he said, I think in a conversation with Vance and Rubio. He said, I can tell a lot about a man by the size of his shoes. Play it, Phil.
18:10 Steven Rinella? And I saw.
18:10 Speaker 06 One pair of cowboy boots coming up. What size?
18:14 Steven Rinella? Uh, size 12, double E.
18:16 Speaker 06 What? Big feet?
18:18 Steven Rinella? Well, you know what they say. No, what? With big feet, big boots. There you go.
18:26 Steven Rinella? I knew I heard that somewhere. It was from Pee Wee's playoffs. So back to the story, here's what's going on in Wisconsin.
18:33 Steven Rinella? You got this Florsheim gentleman. He's Paul Florsheim, grandson of the founder of Florsheim Shoes. This has nothing to do with anything. Nothing to do with anything. He lives along near the lake and for 50 years, this gentleman has walked his dogs up and down the beach of Lake Michigan. This is not like a local little pond of Lake Michigan. He has walked up and down the beach. Well, and I'm sorry to report to you dentists out there, but this involves a dentist.
19:06 Steven Rinella? A dentist really gets to where this is driving him nuts. Cause he owns a property on Lake Michigan. Again, this is Lake Michigan.
19:17 Speaker 06 Yeah, this can't be the only guy walking around on.
19:21 Steven Rinella? But this guy, this dentist gets a real case of the ass about this. His name's Daniel Domagala.
19:31 Steven Rinella? 50 feet from the water's edge, he has a tiki hut, like a Jimmy Buffett looking tiki hut.
19:35 Speaker 06 Nice.
19:37 Steven Rinella? It puts off major Jimmy Buffett vibes, except for the giant keep out sign. It's like he's, he like, he's got like, like you could picture Buffett. Is never going to write a song about keeping people off the beach.
19:52 Speaker 06 Get off my beach.
19:53 Steven Rinella? You understand? Yeah. It would be so un-Buffett like, but this guy's got a little Jimmy Buffett tiki hut. And in there, he's got a lot of alarms that when people come on the beach, he blasts them with alarms to drive them away.
20:09 Speaker 06 Wow.
20:10 Steven Rinella? In one summer, last summer, the dentist Domagala called by his own admission. And one summer he called the cops 50 times to complain about people walking down the Lake Michigan shoreline.
20:30 Steven Rinella? Now in Michigan and in most places, when you imagine the shoreline of a lake, they do it's a legal definition. It's like it's the shoreline is from the the average low water line to the average high water line. And you'll even see in legal definitions, even from the Supreme Court, even pointing out, there's like a debris line where seaweed collects. A line where you can visually see the impact of waves.
20:59 Speaker 06 Like if you're walking in wet sand, you're good.
21:02 Steven Rinella? Yes, because you're seeing the impact of waves.
21:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
21:05 Steven Rinella? It's just defined and defined. But in Wisconsin, years ago, back in 1923, a guy that was watering cattle in Lake Winnebago, got into dispute with a guy that was walking down the lake. And and somehow out of this cattle argument came this idea that Wisconsin doesn't accept average high water, average low water. In Wisconsin, you gotta be in the water because they pegged it to navigation. And you're not doing navigation out of the water.
21:38 Steven Rinella? And usually it's okay, but because this dentist having a conniption all the time, the cops finally came out and they're like, I gotta give you a ticket. This guy won't stop calling on you.
21:51 Steven Rinella? He takes it to village court. Okay, he goes to village court and the judge says, my hands are bound because of this, uh, I'm trying to think, because of Domal V. Jants.
22:05 Speaker 06 He's telling the floor shime guy his hands are tied.
22:08 Steven Rinella? The judge, she, the judge says, I gotta make you guilty.
22:12 Speaker 06 Yep.
22:12 Steven Rinella? I have to make you guilty because I'm bound by Domal V. Jants, which is a 1923 Supreme Court of Wisconsin finding about this dispute between a guy watering cattle in Lake Winnebago.
22:29 Steven Rinella? In a, in a guy on the shoreline, an access dispute, but the judge holds out. I don't know. Maybe it's time that gets overturned because we're out of step with other states.
22:41 Speaker 06 That's interesting.
22:43 Steven Rinella? So, Florsheim is appealing this.
22:46 Speaker 06 I saw a quote from this said, he ain't, like, he ain't taking this quietly.
22:50 Steven Rinella? No, he ain't backing down.
22:51 Speaker 06 Yeah.
22:52 Steven Rinella? He ain't backing down. Uh, what's funny is they sent a photographer out to take photograph of him and for the photograph, he's standing out in ankle deep water, but he's standing out in front.
23:04 Speaker 06 I noted that.
23:05 Steven Rinella? He, he's standing out in front of the Jimmy Buffett tiki hut in ankle deep water for the article. So then that guy's probably in there just praying that he walks up on the sand, you know? Uh, so that, that, that's going on. And this is like, this has major implications because think about the length of shoreline we're talking about Wisconsin's Lake Michigan shoreline. And what's happening here is people are building seawalls and other obstructions to make it that like to force it that you'd have to go around up on the beach, but then saying, hey, you can't go up on the beach.
23:42 Speaker 06 Right.
23:43 Steven Rinella? I just can't believe
23:46 Steven Rinella? this, the dentist is saying he's equating it to a home invasion.
23:52 Speaker 06 Oh, my God.
23:53 Steven Rinella? He's like, if someone comes in your house, what are you gonna do? Because this old timer is walking along the beach and got out of the water.
24:05 Steven Rinella? So there's two things. There's the legal of it all. And I love it that he's, I love it that he's appealing this. There's the legal of it all. And there's also just the like, when you wake up in the morning, man, like, what kind of dude do you want to be that day? Do you want to call the cops 50 times? Cause there's an old man walking, not with his toes in the water down the beach.
24:28 Speaker 06 Yeah. I mean, if that guy was like walking down the beach and his dog was taking a crap right by the tiki hut every day, then you know.
24:35 Steven Rinella? His dogs are leashed.
24:36 Speaker 06 I, I'm just saying, like, if he had a good, he doesn't have a good reason.
24:39 Steven Rinella? Yep. So what, when, when Florsheim argued his case, he argued on the public trust doctrine. Okay. He said, because of public trust doctrine. Um, and these other court cases like that established that that like duck hunters could duck hunt out in front of private property, all this historical stuff. But again, it was thrown out because this had gone to Wisconsin State Supreme Court. So maybe he'll get it overturned. Um, there's also old legal stuff from the admission of the state of the admission of Wisconsin into the state. And that is said, anything that flows into the Mississippi or the St. Lawrence.
25:24 Steven Rinella? It should be open to navigation, but points out because you had to do portaging. It, it has language that basically says, and the walking routes. Because of course you had to portage.
25:37 Speaker 06 Yep.
25:39 Steven Rinella? So it's really confused legal picture. I wish the guy luck. That's the end of my news story.
25:46 Speaker 07 It does look like a nice tiki hut.
25:48 Steven Rinella? Which, yeah.
25:50 Speaker 07 Really nice.
25:51 Steven Rinella? It's a great place to sit, pour yourself a margarita and yell at old men.
25:55 Speaker 07 Dial up 911.
25:56 Steven Rinella? He's not representative of the island mindset. Yep, and yell at old men walking along.
26:02 Speaker 04 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trust Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
26:32 Speaker 01 Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel. Man, I'm a black and Mexican kid from San Pedro, and I grew up in Inglewood as well. I never liked to be like boxed in. Both of my parents colored outside of the line. I mean, even them being together at the time in LA was just not typical. And so I think that has always been a part of my DNA. There's a defiant something in me that feels like what we.
27:13 Speaker 06 Get to do with with what we're given that's greater than us is to maybe connect people to ideas that they wouldn't naturally, you know, connect to. That's really me. I'm just kind of like defiant with love, though. Experience before the moment. A Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're going back to the Colorado Wolf Desk. We haven't been there in a while. Um, this this just came out recently that the actual incident happened in March, but a a ranch hand working at the Nottingham Ranch in Western Colorado shot and killed a female gray
27:54 Speaker 06 wolf from the King Mountain Pack that happened on March 10th. And it turns out she was like the matriarch of a pack.
28:02 Steven Rinella? Good.
28:03 Speaker 06 Um, they had they had pups last year. The the mate had died during a collaring operation just a couple of months before the female died. The female died. So these pups are now like without their their parents, their leaders. Um, so, you know, people are on top of it. Uh, the ranch hand and the ranch manager came forward and and like they weren't trying to cover this up. But the the details that where it gets kind of weird is, um, the the way they described is the wolf was like threatening cows. They run 1100 cattle on this ranch. It's like it's a cow calf operation. Um,
28:48 Speaker 06 and according to the ranch owner, Susie Nottingham, the employee fired two warning shots before killing the wolf as it moved towards cows with the young calf.
28:57 Steven Rinella? So during actually, I saw this, but I didn't know that. It didn't actually take a bite.
29:01 Speaker 06 No, no, no. It was it was quote threatening the wolves. And this is why it's like a big deal because
29:06 Steven Rinella? I understand now.
29:07 Speaker 06 There's a legality question involved. Like, like, what does a wolf have to be doing?
29:13 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
29:13 Speaker 06 Before it's legal to kill it? Because under Colorado's, uh,
29:18 Steven Rinella? Well, I don't think he was going up to say hi.
29:21 Speaker 06 No.
29:21 Steven Rinella? But, yeah.
29:22 Speaker 06 No.
29:23 Steven Rinella? I don't usually do that.
29:24 Speaker 06 But there's this experimental population rule, right? Which says ranchers may legally kill wolves if they're caught actively attacking livestock, working dogs, threatening human safety, et cetera.
29:35 Steven Rinella? Okay.
29:36 Speaker 06 Um, conservation groups are obviously arguing the thing was not actively attacking, right? And it should involve criminal penalties under the Endangered Species Act. So it's a real, like, test case for, for like, what a wolf has to be doing before a rancher can legally, you know, legally kill it. Was it in the act? What constitutes an imminent threat? What evidence is involved in this situation? Did the ranch comply with reporting rules? Which it, it seems like they probably did.
30:07 Steven Rinella? Is there any mention of yardage?
30:10 Speaker 06 No, I didn't find any specific distance.
30:13 Steven Rinella? Um, that'll probably be, oh, certainly be part of the investigation because it approaching it at 50 yards.
30:20 Speaker 06 Yeah.
30:20 Steven Rinella? Or it approaching it at 10 feet are really different things.
30:24 Speaker 06 Oh, definitely, definitely. Um.
30:26 Steven Rinella? But you also have to think if it's a calf.
30:29 Speaker 06 Yeah, it was calving season.
30:31 Steven Rinella? Yeah, so if it's a calf, it's not going to be a really long time between it getting.
30:37 Speaker 06 No.
30:38 Steven Rinella? It getting a hold of it and you having a problem.
30:40 Speaker 06 Exactly.
30:41 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
30:41 Speaker 06 Yeah, and, and, yeah, they're very vulnerable that time of year. Uh, both, both the, the mothers and the cows and, you know, I, I personally think you gotta give ranchers some leeway in this situation. Um, it's not as if, it doesn't sound like they were like out hunting wolves, right? To, to get rid of them.
31:05 Steven Rinella? The other part of it is they came clean right off the bat.
31:07 Speaker 06 Yeah, exactly.
31:09 Steven Rinella? Which, if you, like, you know, you know, there's a slight parallel to this would be that. In a situation where you're being threatened by a grizzly bear, you might kill it self-defense.
31:20 Speaker 06 Yeah.
31:20 Steven Rinella? It's gonna get investigated.
31:21 Speaker 06 Yep.
31:22 Steven Rinella? And they're gonna come out and do like a regular forensic analysis, like where was the bear? Where are the tracks? Where's the shell casings? And, and sometimes you'll read.
31:30 Speaker 06 Yep.
31:31 Steven Rinella? Where they're like, yeah, he was in imminent danger. And sometimes you read where they feel like they got a little jumpy.
31:36 Speaker 06 Yeah.
31:37 Steven Rinella? And maybe, and maybe this would lead to some level of distance, some kind of physical distance at which you could take action.
31:44 Speaker 06 Yeah, so some kind of guideline on where you can get away with it. Interestingly, uh, just about less than a week ago, a few days ago, Colorado parks, they killed a wolf, uh, lethally removed a wolf after repeated livestock depredations. Uh, that particular wolf was involved with it in the deaths of at least 24 sheep. So like, yes, this other wolf hadn't killed anything yet, but, but like, it's not as if CPW isn't going in and killing wolves that are, that are killing livestock. Um, in fact, the state, uh, the state has released 25 wolves in the last couple of years. 14 of those have died. Um,
32:28 Speaker 06 not all of them in incidents like this, but several have been killed because of livestock, uh, depredation. So.
32:35 Steven Rinella? Where does that, do you know, where does that population sit right now?
32:38 Speaker 06 Thirty-two.
32:39 Steven Rinella? And how many were moved into the state?
32:41 Speaker 06 Twenty-five. So fourteen of those original 25 are dead.
32:45 Steven Rinella? Okay.
32:45 Speaker 06 So 11 of the originals are alive. That would lead to 21 that were born in the states in the last couple of years.
32:53 Steven Rinella? So they're taking hold.
32:54 Speaker 06 Yep.
32:55 Steven Rinella? Hmm.
32:56 Speaker 06 There's, we'll see what happens. I like, I don't know what'll happen to that pack that no longer has like a matriarch or a patriarch. We'll see.
33:03 Steven Rinella? You know, for a while I was real big on that word, an apophysis. An apophysis is bringing something up by saying you're not gonna bring it up.
33:11 Speaker 06 Right.
33:11 Steven Rinella? Which you do when you're like fighting with your wife.
33:13 Speaker 06 Mm-hmm.
33:14 Steven Rinella? You know, the example I use is you go like, or your wife would usually say to you, maybe she'd be like, I'm not even gonna talk about what happened on Friday. That's an apophysis.
33:23 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:24 Steven Rinella? Brody and I decided not to cover a story about some, some guys in Colorado. We're not covering this. Some guys in Colorado who are saying since the 20, since the 2016 election was rigged.
33:44 Speaker 06 Mm hmm. No, 2020 was rigged.
33:47 Steven Rinella? Well, no, because that because that wasn't rigged.
33:49 Speaker 06 2020 was the one Biden won.
33:53 Steven Rinella? Oh, what am I saying?
33:53 Speaker 06 Yeah.
33:54 Steven Rinella? Sorry. You're right. Sorry.
33:55 Speaker 06 2020.
33:56 Steven Rinella? Yeah. Since the 2020 election was rigged, it must have been that the wolf vote was rigged too.
34:02 Speaker 06 Yes. And they want to overturn it.
34:04 Steven Rinella? So therefore it didn't actually pass because we all know it was rigged.
34:08 Speaker 06 Yes.
34:09 Steven Rinella? And they probably rigged that too. But we weren't going to cover that story because I just need to read about it more.
34:13 Speaker 06 But just so you know.
34:17 Steven Rinella? But that's, that's a thing.
34:20 Speaker 06 But yeah, we'll keep an eye on this to see if they end up charging this guy or not. I, I, I'm going to predict they don't.
34:26 Steven Rinella? I'm going to predict they don't.
34:27 Speaker 06 Yeah.
34:28 Steven Rinella? If they did something totally fishy.
34:30 Speaker 06 Like went and shot some puppies in a den or something.
34:34 Steven Rinella? They would have not, they wouldn't have said, hey, send someone over.
34:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
34:37 Steven Rinella? This just happened. You know what I mean?
34:41 Speaker 06 But that's right.
34:41 Steven Rinella? And the other thing is, I forgot this little detail. I think you might have mentioned it. It wasn't even, it was the ranch owner that reported.
34:48 Speaker 06 Yes.
34:49 Steven Rinella? So.
34:50 Speaker 06 And she's like the Nottinghams. This is like a little editorializing, but having spent a lot of time in that area, like the Nottinghams are like an old school, like well-to-do Eagle County family.
35:01 Steven Rinella? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they, I don't think they feel like they got anything to hide and they're just laying it out.
35:06 Speaker 06 Yep. Yep.
35:09 Speaker 06 My old stomping grounds right there, man.
35:13 Speaker 06 Who's next?
35:14 Steven Rinella? You.
35:15 Speaker 06 I am. I'm going again.
35:16 Steven Rinella? Back to you.
35:17 Speaker 06 I gotta figure this out. What am I doing?
35:20 Steven Rinella? Horse shit news stories.
35:21 Speaker 06 Oh, man. Bill, can you pull up that picture? Yeah.
35:25 Steven Rinella? This is the weirdest, this, this one is the weirdest thing.
35:28 Speaker 06 I was, I don't spend a ton of time on Instagram.
35:34 Speaker 06 But I don't know what, a couple of weeks ago, I sent this to you, Steve. I was scrolling through and this came up. This is, the name of this page is outstanding. It's out with two Ts, standing. It called, the, the, the description is curating business technology and breaking news in one place. Three hundred and forty-two thousand followers, including some people I know. Like you can see who follows different pages. And so they said this, conservationists confirm wild jaguars breeding uh, in the United States for the first time in decades. Trail camera, yada, yada. If you go on to read what the post has to say, it'll say that trail cameras in June twenty twenty-six
36:18 Speaker 06 caught pictures of a female jaguar with cubs in the Arizona wilderness, like the Sky Island areas that we, we've talked about before.
36:26 Steven Rinella? Liked by twelve thousand two hundred people, shared by three thousand four hundred and eighteen people.
36:32 Speaker 06 Yeah. Um, even goes on to say that there's strongly suggests that a breeding population is establishing itself north of the border. And that the female and cubs were found in areas monitored by the University of Arizona Wildcat Research and Conservation Center. So I'm looking at this and I'm like, wow, that's amazing, right? But then I'm like, huh.
36:56 Steven Rinella? It would be reported everywhere.
36:59 Speaker 06 Yes, like I immediately went to Google and like typed in some stuff that would lead to any news articles surrounding this event. Couldn't find any. But like Google AI kinda went on to confirm what this Instagram.
37:15 Steven Rinella? From that.
37:15 Speaker 06 From, just from that. So the lesson is like. The lesson is like, if you're getting news from not, and you, all you probably know this, but if you're getting news from social media or AI, like, man, you just gotta be careful.
37:33 Steven Rinella? If you're wondering how long to boil like a hard boiled egg.
37:35 Speaker 06 Yeah.
37:36 Steven Rinella? The AI overview can save you a lot of time. When it comes to anything slightly complicated.
37:41 Speaker 06 And, and I can't tell if this, this outstanding page is even written by humans. It may be completely AI generated.
37:48 Steven Rinella? But the point being, this is not true.
37:51 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's completely untrue. And, and like this, this, this page appears like a legit news page. It has some legitimate news stories on the page. But anyway, I got suspicious, emailed our, our resident wildlife biology expert, Jim Heffelfinger.
38:09 Steven Rinella? From Arizona.
38:10 Speaker 06 From Arizona. And immediately he's like, this seems like it's probably horseshit.
38:16 Steven Rinella? Horse chute.
38:17 Speaker 06 Yes, $100.
38:21 Steven Rinella? To some, some college.
38:23 Speaker 07 From your kids' college fund to some other kids.
38:25 Speaker 06 So he, I feel like that's not, that doesn't go, horseshit shouldn't be included in there.
38:30 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
38:33 Speaker 07 Phil, I would like to point out that this, this writer says, I know Phil does a good job at bleeping them out, but it's not enough.
38:40 Speaker 06 Yeah.
38:42 Speaker 06 Sorry, sorry.
38:43 Steven Rinella? You know what's weird, I forgot to tell you that this kid said, this kid said, sorry, Brody, interrupt your news story.
38:49 Speaker 06 No finishers and we'll, we'll get back.
38:51 Steven Rinella? He thinks Randall should host more roast episodes.
38:55 Speaker 07 Huh, don't tell Yanis.
38:59 Speaker 06 Don't tell Yanis.
39:00 Steven Rinella? Everybody's back to this.
39:01 Speaker 06 Back to Heffelfinger, he did some digging and he, right off the bat, he smelled a rat. He did some digging with some of his colleagues and basically, yes, it's a hoax unless some legitimate detail surfaced. And I mentioned, you know, this.
39:15 Steven Rinella? Dude, I've looked, it's not real.
39:17 Speaker 06 Oh, I know it's not.
39:20 Speaker 06 I, I mentioned this could create headaches for wildlife managers. And yet, like one of his colleagues is, seems to constantly be dealing with stuff like this. Like there, one, there was a post that came out about Mexican wolf releases going on that, that had never, it had never happened. So it's like.
39:42 Steven Rinella? And he said, there's a photo, so there was an article about them releasing Mexican wolves in northern Arizona with a photo.
39:48 Speaker 06 Yeah.
39:49 Steven Rinella? Well, it turns out the photo was from Mexico.
39:52 Speaker 06 So. Yeah, even wildlife management is getting hit by this stuff now.
39:58 Steven Rinella? Oh, yeah. And Heppelfinger said this too. That fake article, the fake article about wolves, which is like, what a weird thing to fake.
40:05 Speaker 06 Well, this is too.
40:06 Steven Rinella? Even had fake maps with fake GPS tracks on it. But what are you gaining from that?
40:11 Speaker 06 I don't, I don't get it. But the problem is, the problem is, is like, not to like pat our own back here, like, we're able to recognize this stuff. A lot of people that saw that would just be like, assume that it's true. There's like, no reason for them to think that it's not true, right?
40:30 Steven Rinella? That's why you gotta come to the news show for your news.
40:32 Speaker 07 Yeah, formerly trained newsman.
40:34 Steven Rinella? We, we check out, we, we dig into everything and check it out, man. Mostly using the internet. Try to dupe us. Ain't gonna happen. Cause we get on the phone and call people.
40:45 Speaker 07 Suckers.
40:47 Speaker 06 Over to the fishing desk. Um, a new record was set at the 68th annual Big Rock Blue Marlin Tournament, which I talked about this with the whole Omni Sonar thing a few weeks back. Uh, with a blue marlin that was 919.9 pounds.
41:06 Speaker 06 Big old fish.
41:08 Steven Rinella? God.
41:08 Speaker 06 The previous record was 914 pounds.
41:10 Steven Rinella? That's like a bunch of me laying there, dude. Like me and me and me and me. I don't know how many times, a bunch of times laying there.
41:18 Speaker 07 Yeah, it's slightly less than.
41:19 Steven Rinella? Big pile of me's.
41:20 Speaker 07 Unfortunately, it's slightly less than four of me.
41:23 Speaker 06 They, they mentioned when they, I saw the news article when they brought it in, they mentioned that the head of the fish was in the, in the saloon of the boat. It was so long. Taken a whole thing. Didn't fit on the whole back deck.
41:37 Speaker 06 Uh, the boat Marlin Fever, which is a 63 foot jet bay from Wilson County, North Carolina, was the boat that brought in the giant fish. Uh, boat's captain by Captain Cameron Guthrie, and the angler who caught the fish was 18-year-old Connor Daniel. Young kid. Yeah, young kid. Which you saw that the fish was 20 years old.
41:58 Steven Rinella? Yeah, that fish was two when that dude was born.
42:03 Speaker 06 Yeah, I bet that fish.
42:04 Speaker 07 Or if he felt a disturbance in the force in his second year.
42:07 Steven Rinella? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't like catching fish older than me. I mean, I'll do it. I'll eat them, but I don't like it.
42:16 Speaker 06 Um, so this fish was the heaviest fish ever weighed in the tournament's history and the payout for this fish, it won two.
42:23 Steven Rinella? Categories and the total payout was uh six million, five hundred and thirteen thousand, one hundred and eighty seven dollars, fifty cents. That is, that has got to be taxed in a very burdensome way.
42:40 Steven Rinella? Like, I just feel like when you go to the IRS and you're like, hey, I won six million bucks in a fishing contest. That is not like, that it's, that they have a special way they're gonna handle that. You know, uh. Slide that over to the let's get these guys desk. Our friend, uh, Brandon Polamac was telling me one time that their, their tournament, like their tournaments are in different states, you know? So they get, they get taxed. Oh, yeah. For their winnings in every state. All different ways. Yeah, all different ways. There's probably good states to win in, bad states to win in. Yep. Six million, five hundred thousand dollars. Yep. Look at that. And it's the largest single boat winning in the tournament sixty eight years. And that's the biggest tournament? Yeah.
43:25 Steven Rinella? Um, there's only ever been six blue marlin in the history of this tournament weighing over seven hundred pounds brought to the scales.
43:35 Steven Rinella? Can you imagine duking it out with that fish? Once you started realizing what you had? Took two hours. And then when you're like, hey, man, you know, be careful with the gaff because that's, you know, six million dollars.
43:51 Steven Rinella? Your kid's like, I'm gonna gaff it, I'm gonna gaff it.
43:55 Steven Rinella? Um, so this, this fish was caught on day two of the tournament. It's a six day tournament, but you're, you can fish for the six days. So you can choose like what days, depending on weather and whatnot.
44:06 Speaker 06 I wonder if the rest of the people are like, forget it.
44:10 Steven Rinella? No, I keep fishing.
44:13 Steven Rinella? Yeah, but I mean, you could, you could still potentially win.
44:16 Speaker 06 More money.
44:16 Steven Rinella? You know, second, second or third place, which is, you know, still a bunch of money.
44:21 Speaker 06 Yep.
44:22 Steven Rinella? Um, uh, so it, this fish won the overall heaviest blue marlin category in all.
44:30 Speaker 04 Also it won the fabulous fisherman prize, which is the first blue marlin brought to the scales during the tournament that weighed over 500 pounds. And that comes with a prize of eight hundred and seventy one thousand dollars.
44:44 Speaker 07 In addition, or?
44:45 Speaker 04 No, that's just part of, part of the purse. Yeah. But yeah, if you bring in the first blue marlin weighing over 500 pounds, that's how much money you win.
44:53 Steven Rinella? So this boat fender bender catches a six forty four.
44:57 Speaker 04 Yep.
44:59 Steven Rinella? And that's not good enough.
45:00 Speaker 04 That's the second place, second place fish was caught by fender bender. Six, six forty four and the third place fish. Um, was haphazard, brought in by haphazard, weighing six thirty five.
45:12 Speaker 07 Great boat names.
45:13 Speaker 04 The total payout split between forty seven money winners was nine million dollars, thirty eight thousand, two hundred and twenty five.
45:24 Speaker 04 There's a total of two hundred and seventy boats that fished the tournament. Um, and just to compare this fish to the current world record.
45:33 Steven Rinella? Not even close.
45:34 Speaker 04 Blue marlin. Yeah, not even close. Caught in nineteen ninety two off the coast of Brazil. Um, weighed for, just over fourteen hundred pounds.
45:43 Speaker 07 Amazing.
45:44 Steven Rinella? And it's uplifting that there's still fish that big out in the ocean. Yeah. Uh. Seth had another thing that he didn't think was worth putting in his story. Would you like to share?
45:55 Speaker 04 Well, I was, I, I was gonna mention it, um, but the, I read that the, this fish had. I read two sailfish in its stomach.
46:05 Steven Rinella? Kind, yes and no.
46:09 Steven Rinella? It had a sailfish in its stomach. And it had a different sailfish's bill lodged under its gill covered.
46:18 Speaker 07 Man.
46:19 Steven Rinella? And he's still out eating.
46:22 Speaker 04 I wonder if they, they, if that's.
46:23 Steven Rinella? It's just like him trying to eat like the one in the gills if he's trying to eat it or if they're like duking it like. My theory, and I don't know, I just read it. I thought that he get in a fight with a sailfish or was he trying to eat it and it got jammed over? I think it was like, if you're eating northern pike and you wind up with a bone stuck in your throat, that's my theory. That's the equivalent of you having a pike bone in your throat is him having a billfish bill in his gill. Yeah. But I don't know. You'd have to ask him. It's gotta be a tough fish to eat. Four, fourteen hundred pounds. For the world record. World record blue marlin.
47:01 Speaker 06 Size of Alaska bull moose.
47:03 Steven Rinella? And I can't believe also that that you can kick one of those off in 20 years. Yeah. Now me and Seth want to get invited to that tournament, but I only want to go if we can catch a couple of wahoo and some tuna just for eating. There, there are some categories for, for tuna and, and like, uh, dolphin and stuff.
47:23 Speaker 06 I think you guys go out and sess walleye boat.
47:26 Steven Rinella? I think if you.
47:27 Speaker 06 Just troll mahi.
47:28 Steven Rinella? There is, there is an outboard division.
47:30 Speaker 07 If you pick up, if you pick up a 900 pounder on day two, you should be fine to just go out and fish for the, fish for the freezer.
47:37 Steven Rinella? So if you need a couple of guys to sit around who don't know the first thing about marlin fishing, uh, we're both interested. Yeah, I would, I would love to go and just check it out. Just watch. Yep.
47:48 Speaker 04 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything.
48:34 Speaker 04 This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. So you're helping Will.i.am write hooks. What made Ordinary People become the one song from those sound checks you knew you had to make your own? I was just writing.
48:47 Speaker 01 For the Black Eyed Peas, I wasn't expecting to write something for myself in that session, but I wrote the hook for Ordinary People and I recorded a demo and I'm like, I would rather keep Ordinary People for myself. This station in Chicago, W G C I, they start playing it before we're promoting it. The song spoke for itself. It became the defining song for my first album. I knew it was special, but you never know how special it's going to be and how much impact it's going to have in people's lives. And you never believe that you're going to actually change people's lives with a song. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
49:25 Speaker 07 Off to New Mexico.
49:28 Steven Rinella? Off to New Mexico.
49:30 Speaker 07 Um, so there's a story, there's a couple interrelated stories here that I'm going to thread together. Uh, and the first one is there's a recent article, or I guess a recent news story about a high-profile case of tag fraud. Um, but it speaks to a larger discussion about opportunity allocation in New Mexico. So, three guys associated with Big Horn Outfitters were obtaining elk tags through the resident draw system and then transferring them to non-residents in exchange for payment. Um, and so what they did is they created fake hunter profiles, fake names, fake, fake accounts. They drew tags and then requested medical
50:12 Speaker 07 transfers to their clients. Um, and so in the state of New Mexico, you can get a doctor's note and then instead of that tag going back into the draw for the next, uh, Joe Public Hunter, you can designate who receives your tag when you turn it in. So they're creating all these fake accounts, drawing tags.
50:32 Steven Rinella? Those dudes are all getting sick.
50:34 Speaker 07 They're all getting sick. Yeah. And they're forging the doctor's notes. Um, and so these guys were, were charged with wire fraud and LACI Act violations. Um, even still, it's really bizarre that they were able to draw this many tags. Like they drew 13 resident elk tags with 29
50:53 Speaker 06 Yeah.
50:53 Speaker 07 fake profiles and they're, so there's some speculation that they, they had even more fake accounts that were, that were not discovered.
51:02 Speaker 06 Yeah. Um, I mean, this is all, correct me if I'm wrong. This is all linked to the fact that like elk tags are notoriously difficult to draw for non-residents. Like New Mexico elk tags, correct?
51:13 Speaker 07 Well.
51:14 Steven Rinella? I can attest.
51:15 Speaker 07 Yes. So, so what's interesting here, and the other thing is this, this could not happen. As far as I know, most Western states, you couldn't pull this off. Right? Because you can't just transfer tags like that. Um, and what, what was interesting to me about this is the US attorney who announced the indictment. His quote says, as a hunter, I know it's extraordinarily difficult for New Mexico residents to draw elk tags. In fact, many New Mexicans who apply annually wait years, sometimes decades to draw a coveted tag and win the opportunity to free, fill their freezer with elk. Um, and so.
51:53 Steven Rinella? That's premium unit.
51:55 Speaker 07 Yeah.
51:55 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
51:56 Speaker 07 But, but still, it, it is relatively speaking, it is hard for New Mexicans to, to draw elk tags. Um, and allocation of tags in New Mexico would probably shock most people who are familiar with how this works in other states. Um, every Western state has landowner and outfitter tags. Uh, and it's weighed against public opportunity, but, um, in New Mexico, it's something like 60 to 70% of tags go to the general public and about 30% are private. Whereas in most states, they reserve more than 90% for your, just any person applying to hunt.
52:41 Speaker 07 Um, it's, so it's 10 times the norm. It's, it depends by species in terms of antelope tags, New Mexico, almost 65% of them are, are just privately distributed.
52:53 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
52:53 Speaker 07 Um, 16% of all bighorn sheep tags are privately distributed.
52:57 Speaker 06 And a lot of, a lot of those tags, like, you can then go online and like, it's like a bidding war for those tags.
53:05 Speaker 07 Right. So, so the, the private tags, what we're calling private tags here are divided between, uh, mandated outfitter set aside. And then the private landowner tag system. Uh, the private landowner tag system accounts for the, the majority of those. I think it's like eight to one, something like that of these private tags. And they can sell or trade them on the open market. Um, ostensibly the reason being to help offset the financial costs of managing wildlife. Um, the other thing that's sort of unique to New Mexico is in most states where there are landowner tags. There are requirements for allowing public access to private lands. New Mexico does not do this. It's just cutting off a big old chunk of the public resource and, and sliding it across.
53:50 Steven Rinella? Because you gotta, but I, I want to jump in here and explain a part of that.
53:53 Speaker 07 Sure.
53:55 Steven Rinella? You will see like in, in some states, I believe Colorado is this way. You might see a open unit or closed unit landowner tag.
54:07 Steven Rinella? If you, let's say you have a rancher, um, and they, they own a ranch.
54:12 Speaker 07 Can I explain open and closed unit?
54:14 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
54:15 Speaker 07 I, I think this is what you're getting at. Some tags.
54:17 Steven Rinella? That's what I'm fixing to explain.
54:19 Speaker 07 Okay, go ahead.
54:23 Steven Rinella? I'm, I'm trying to paint a scenario.
54:24 Speaker 07 Yeah.
54:24 Steven Rinella? Let's say you're in it, let's say you have an area, you, you have an area where you have a private ranch in a county and there's also a ton of national forests in the county.
54:35 Steven Rinella? And the rancher, the rancher's got 20,000 acres and he gets two elk tags every year that he can sell. As a way to offset his inconvenience for hosting wildlife.
54:47 Steven Rinella? But you'd think so when he has his landowner tag, it must mean that whoever buys that tag from him hunts his ranch. It's not that way. If it's an open unit tag,
55:02 Steven Rinella? he can sell you the tag.
55:05 Steven Rinella? And you don't even touch his property. You can go hunt the national forest.
55:08 Speaker 06 Mm hmm.
55:09 Steven Rinella? So you got guys buying landowner tags, hunting public land.
55:13 Speaker 06 Mm hmm.
55:15 Steven Rinella? But there are, what state has a closed unit one?
55:17 Speaker 06 They, Colorado has both. So they'll have tags where you can only hunt the landowner's land.
55:22 Steven Rinella? Yep.
55:22 Speaker 06 And then you can hunt the other, what you were talking about, where you can go anywhere in the unit and hunt.
55:27 Steven Rinella? Yep.
55:28 Speaker 07 Yeah. So this, I mean, again, this happens in every state and there's, it's like a spectrum of, of how favored one.
55:38 Steven Rinella? Mm hmm.
55:38 Speaker 07 Yep. Side of the, the pious versus the other.
55:42 Steven Rinella? I've bought, I've bought two of these in my life in New Mexico.
55:45 Speaker 07 Yeah.
55:45 Steven Rinella? Bought a landowner pronghorn. I bought an landowner elk tag in my lifetime. Full disclosure here.
55:51 Speaker 07 Yeah. And, and you can't get mad at, at outfitters.
55:54 Steven Rinella? Hate the game, not the player, right?
55:55 Speaker 07 Exactly. Right. It's the system. Like, like landowners and outfitters are defending the status quo. Tag buyers are participating in the system as the system's designed. Uh, the issue is lawmakers who are, who are stacking the deck in this way, right? Policymakers who are stacking the deck in this way. Um, there's two stories that relate to this that could set the stain, set, set the stage for a change in how this works. And, and again, it's like, it's not happening anytime soon, or it's not happening immediately, but there's one lawsuit, um, that was just settled. Um, some landowners in the western part of the state in Ketchum County claimed there are too many elk
56:40 Speaker 07 and it resulted in an unconstitutional taking of their property. Um, they wanted additional compensation from the state because the elk were eating their, their grass. They're saying that there's so many elk, they have to reduce the size of their herds. Some of them are saying they have to sell their ranches because the elk are eating too much. Um, and their claim is that the state intentionally introduced a non-native elk herd, managed its population to grow dramatically and knowingly relied on private lands to sustain the herd.
57:09 Speaker 07 Um, this went to district court, which ruled that uh the unconstitutional taking of property claims were invalid, but it left open the question of whether or not the elk could be considered a nuisance. Mm hmm. That the state has imposed. Um, and then the state court of appeals upheld the rejection of the unconstitutional taking of property question and went further, it threw out the idea that elk can be a nuisance, uh, or that more technically that the state could be responsible for any nuisances caused by elk. So it backfired on that dude? Yeah, and this, the state, so the quotes from the, the quotes from the decision are like reaffirm that the people own the elk, the state manages them and it, and it sort
57:53 Speaker 07 of says the elk exist, the elk have a right to be there. Um, they say because the state is viewed as the trustee for and not an owner of wildlife, governments that regulate the well-being of wildlife do not have a liability for the actions of that wildlife. And it also goes on to say the regulations that these guys are complaining about, it says, none of the regulations require authorized elk on private properties, nor do they prevent property owners from building fences to keep them out. So in some ways, the court is pushing back against sort of entitlement by landowners to compensation for Hmm. the, the wildlife and it kind of draws, redraws a bit the boundaries of that relationship,
58:38 Speaker 07 right? Because a lot of these privatization of, of tags, they're, they're a product of the acknowledgement that landowners do Yeah. sustain wildlife and, and that's legitimate. Um, but the state is kind of drawing a line or the, the court is sort of drawing a line in the sand there. I would be curious to hear if this individual, what, like,
59:03 Steven Rinella? How many elk tags are available in this area?
59:08 Speaker 07 Right.
59:09 Steven Rinella? And if this individual is allowing hunters to access his property to hunt and thereby disperse the elk herds?
59:19 Speaker 07 Right.
59:20 Steven Rinella? Or if it's, well, I don't want anyone on my land, but I don't want the elk here either.
59:26 Speaker 07 Well, yeah, and that's where a lot of these, that's where a lot of these conversations end up. It's like, there are tools available in the toolbox. It's just if some landowners don't want to utilize public hunting pressure.
59:37 Speaker 06 Yeah, it sounds like this guy just wants some, some payment.
59:41 Speaker 07 Yeah.
59:41 Speaker 06 For the fact that he's being in convenient, additional payment.
59:45 Speaker 07 Yeah. And so the other story that, that ties to this, and this is more directly related to the question of tag allocation, is that on April 29th, lawmakers in New Mexico wrote to the attorney general about two questions they had about the current tag allocation system, noting that it seems to be in quote, "significant tension" with the anti-donation clause in the state constitution. And the New Mexico's constitution, there's an anti-donation clause that prohibits the state and other governing bodies from making donations of public funds or property to or in aid of any private person, association, or corporation.
1:00:27 Steven Rinella? Hmm.
1:00:28 Speaker 07 So the two questions that the lawmakers specifically raised had to do with mandatory outfitter licenses under a set percentage. And one of the reasons that this is sort of politically,
1:00:41 Speaker 07 I guess, like, one of the reasons that a New Mexico lawmaker might question that to make political hay is that 90% of those outfitter tags are going to non-residents.
1:00:52 Steven Rinella? Got it.
1:00:52 Speaker 07 It's out-of-state money buying these tags, instead of these tags going to the people of New Mexico who own the wildlife.
1:00:59 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:00:59 Speaker 07 It's, it's-
1:01:00 Steven Rinella? Like, they're making donations.
1:01:02 Speaker 07 Exactly.
1:01:02 Steven Rinella? God, this is the kind of law dog, and like, I always thought I wanted to be a lawyer on sweepstakes and raffle law, but this kind of law dogging is real interesting.
1:01:11 Speaker 07 Wildlife, wildlife and-
1:01:12 Steven Rinella? Justice.
1:01:13 Speaker 06 And I mean, kind of looking out for the residents of New Mexico goes along with what's happening in some other states already, right? Like you're seeing states that are taking extra steps to make sure that residents get more of the available tags.
1:01:26 Steven Rinella? Right, but that, that is a very compelling legal argument.
1:01:30 Speaker 06 Yeah.
1:01:30 Speaker 07 And, and so they, they say their quote in the letter is, we know of no other state, this is in reference to outfitter licenses. We know of no other state that confers such a benefit, ultimately creating a system where those with the greatest wealth from across the country have a better chance of hunting New Mexico's public lands than average New Mexicans.
1:01:49 Steven Rinella? Wow, they're taking the populist angle.
1:01:51 Speaker 07 Yeah, and specifically, well, something to note here, they're, they're talking about outfitter tags, not landowner tags.
1:01:58 Steven Rinella? Sure.
1:01:59 Speaker 07 Which, if you're talking about creating more opportunity for New Mexicans to hunt big game animals.
1:02:05 Steven Rinella? Yep.
1:02:06 Speaker 07 You'd take aim at those landowner tags because there are way more landowner tags than outfitter tags.
1:02:11 Speaker 06 Sure.
1:02:11 Speaker 07 But here we have, here we have a case of, of lawmakers kind of standing up for democratic allocation of wildlife. So I don't want to poo poo it, but on the other hand, there's bigger fish to fry if you want to see more New Mexicans enjoying that opportunity.
1:02:28 Steven Rinella? God, if I was Phil, I'd have put up a, like a video of dudes stirring a big old pot of soup with a canoe paddle, man. Cause these dudes are stirring the pot.
1:02:35 Speaker 07 How about, how about a screech?
1:02:37 Steven Rinella? I'm sure, I'm sure Bill looked for it, he just couldn't find it.
1:02:40 Speaker 07 A screeching eagle, a screeching eagle with an American flag.
1:02:44 Speaker 06 I, I did.
1:02:44 Steven Rinella? If he had like a hat that said Law Dog and was stirring this big old pot with like elk antlers sticking out of it with a canoe paddle, that'd have been sweet.
1:02:51 Speaker 06 I did see something, Randall, that like, if they, if they reduce the number of those guaranteed outfitter tags,
1:03:00 Speaker 06 non-residents would still end up booking the outfitters anyway, was one argument.
1:03:05 Speaker 07 Right, right. Um, the, the other thing that the lawmakers are questioning is the fact that in New Mexico, for bighorn sheep licenses, which are, you know, that's the biggest dollars there are in terms of hunting opportunity. The way that they do it is they combine the hunting units to determine how many bighorn tags go to the private pool versus the public pool.
1:03:29 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:03:29 Speaker 07 Every other species, they're issuing these licenses and dividing them up on a per unit basis.
1:03:35 Steven Rinella? Yep.
1:03:35 Speaker 07 But they're combining all the units for bighorns and as a result, the number of licenses counted for determining how many outfitters is artificially increased.
1:03:45 Steven Rinella? Can I, can I, I don't understand, but can I explain?
1:03:48 Speaker 07 Please.
1:03:48 Steven Rinella? Part of this and then you can explain part of it to you. I just want, I want listeners to, to get a grip on what we're saying.
1:03:53 Speaker 07 Sure.
1:03:55 Steven Rinella? Montana's 10% cap, right? So Montana caps,
1:04:01 Steven Rinella? like take bighorn sheep. No more than 10% of the bighorn sheep tag allocation in Montana can go to non-residents. But you have units that only give out one bighorn sheep tag.
1:04:15 Speaker 07 Right.
1:04:16 Steven Rinella? So you would say, well, how in the world could a non-resident ever get the tag? If there's only one in that unit?
1:04:24 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm.
1:04:24 Steven Rinella? So what they do is they do it, uh, region by region. You count up how many bighorn sheep tags are available in all of region three, which is combined by many units. So say in all of region three, there are 20 bighorn sheep tags. Therefore, two can go to non-residents. And it could wind up being that a non-resident holds the only bighorn sheep tag in a unit.
1:04:50 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm.
1:04:50 Steven Rinella? With that said, I don't understand what you're saying.
1:04:53 Speaker 07 So I, I think one of the problems is that they only do this for bighorns. They don't do it for other animals. My understanding is that like in, in your. If they were to, if they were to chop up that pie into smaller pieces to determine, before determining who gets what.
1:05:12 Steven Rinella? Hmm.
1:05:14 Speaker 07 It would sort of incrementally, the percentages would drop. If that makes, does that make any sense?
1:05:20 Steven Rinella? I'd have to have a really good math person who's used to explaining stuff to children.
1:05:24 Speaker 07 Yeah, I think.
1:05:25 Steven Rinella? Come in and tell me about it.
1:05:26 Speaker 07 I think the idea is that like, because they have to round, they have to round up or round down. As the pie grows, it rounds up further. I couldn't actually explain it in any detailed sense. I should have acknowledged that right off the bat.
1:05:43 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:05:43 Speaker 07 Um, but, but the lawmakers, to get back to this letter, the lawmakers say, take, taking each of these issues individually and together. What are the constitutional implications in terms of the state's obligation to manage New Mexico wildlife in trust for the benefit of the people of the state? So the, the attorney general has not issued a response yet to this. It should be happening any day now.
1:06:09 Steven Rinella? Um, so a lawmaker can go. A lawmaker can go to the attorney general and say.
1:06:17 Steven Rinella? Can you justify this to me?
1:06:19 Speaker 07 Yeah. They, they're looking for an opinion.
1:06:22 Steven Rinella? Yeah, and then he's got to come back and go, man. It really doesn't make any sense.
1:06:28 Speaker 07 Exactly.
1:06:29 Steven Rinella? I don't know why that's legal or whatever.
1:06:31 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:06:31 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:06:32 Speaker 07 Yeah, and I think like the, the, the big picture, you might be, the listener might be thinking, I don't live in New Mexico. I'm never going to hunt New Mexico. Why does this matter for me? And the folks that I talked, I should say, I talked to people in New Mexico, um, Jesse DuBelle from New Mexico Wildlife Federation.
1:06:53 Speaker 07 They, they point out that New Mexico could be a cautionary tale for other states.
1:06:58 Steven Rinella? Hmm.
1:06:59 Speaker 07 Because again, this is a, it's not something that's like, um, by itself, unique to New Mexico.
1:07:08 Speaker 07 It's a, it's a sliding scale and in other states, they have similar programs, but it slid way far in one direction in New Mexico and, and last year's Montana legislative session, they talked about transferable landowner tags.
1:07:22 Steven Rinella? Mm-hmm.
1:07:22 Speaker 07 It's probably going to come up again. Wyoming, there was just a push for transferable landowner tags and that kind of got, uh, killed, but it's going to come back in another legislative session. So, once you make these tags transferable, it opens up Pandora's box for this sort of the fraud case that I started with, but, um, all in all, like, people own the wildlife and it's just like democracy. People own the wildlife. You should be able to have a say in how it's, how it's done, right? And, and New Mexico too, like stream access. It's, New Mexico's sort of on the front lines of, of privatization of public resources
1:08:03 Speaker 07 and they just had all these stream access cases where guys are, um, barbed wiring and concertina wiring streams to prevent people from accessing them. Um, there's guys digging out river channels that are too deep to wade and just like the compliance with stream access, there's, there are people in New Mexico who are seeing how far they can push it in terms of privatizing some of these resources.
1:08:28 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:08:28 Speaker 07 So, I think we should all be paying attention to that.
1:08:30 Steven Rinella? I don't want to condemn any state that does landowner tags.
1:08:36 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:08:36 Steven Rinella? And I'm sure there's places where it's, um, where it's beneficial to some sectors and some user groups and, and I'm not here to condemn it.
1:08:45 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm.
1:08:47 Steven Rinella? I'll, I'll say this though. If I lived in a state that did not have transferable landowner tags and someone was proposing to make that a new thing.
1:09:01 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm.
1:09:02 Steven Rinella? I would stand in opposition to that.
1:09:04 Speaker 07 Yeah.
1:09:04 Steven Rinella? I would want to. I would want to maintain the status quo of not doing that in a situation where we were asking whether we should start doing it.
1:09:16 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
1:09:17 Steven Rinella? Not to say that places should walk back because they might have a successful system, but I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to be in a state where that went into play.
1:09:26 Speaker 07 Yeah, and it's a push and pull, right? There's, you know, whenever you talk about opportunity allocation, there's people that should say, oh, we should get rid of points, we should make it a random draw, we should, and then you get into the questions of rest.
1:09:39 Steven Rinella? But I have a lot of points, though.
1:09:41 Speaker 07 I know.
1:09:41 Steven Rinella? That's not a good idea.
1:09:42 Speaker 07 Well, that's the thing, and every.
1:09:43 Speaker 06 Yep, New Mexico doesn't do points.
1:09:44 Steven Rinella? New Mexico does do points.
1:09:45 Speaker 06 They're a lottery.
1:09:46 Speaker 07 Everybody has the right to, to say what they think should happen.
1:09:50 Steven Rinella? Yeah.
1:09:50 Speaker 07 You know, and they're the people that stand to benefit from undemocratic allocation. They're definitely making their voices heard. So if you're someone out there who's sort of a wildlife populist, you should weigh in too.
1:10:03 Steven Rinella? You know, like NIMBY, what would it be if you were saying not in my tag holder envelope?
1:10:10 Speaker 07 NIM.
1:10:12 Speaker 06 NIMF.
1:10:12 Steven Rinella? NIM, NIMBY.
1:10:13 Speaker 06 NIMF.
1:10:14 Steven Rinella? Yeah, not in my tag holder envelope. Because I would say if New Mexico also was like, hey, we're kicking in points.
1:10:20 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
1:10:21 Steven Rinella? Then I would be like, well, you sons of bitches better go back in time and give me my 20 points that I never got.
1:10:30 Steven Rinella? I was like, this better be retroactive.
1:10:32 Speaker 07 Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know, I'm, you know, it's like, as hunters, we should be having these conversations. And like, when you look at New Mexico on its face, for me, it's kind of like, man, I, I feel for the people there.
1:10:48 Steven Rinella? Yeah, and it always, you know, like, you get like, you get a sort of, like, a state establishes a reputation, you know? And now then you'll hear a story out of a state and you just won't be surprised.
1:11:00 Speaker 07 Right.
1:11:00 Steven Rinella? Meaning, when Texas said, hey, even though Texas historically had elk, we're going to all of a sudden now pretend that elk are non-native.
1:11:08 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
1:11:09 Steven Rinella? I, no disrespect to Texas, I love, I like going there, I love the place. I was like, that feels so Texas.
1:11:16 Speaker 07 Right.
1:11:17 Steven Rinella? When I hear stuff out of New Mexico, I'm like, that doesn't feel New Mexico.
1:11:21 Speaker 07 It's real close to Texas, geographically. And I think there's, I think part of the reason why it's such a hotbed for this stuff is there's that money and that influence.
1:11:33 Steven Rinella? Oh, Texas second homes.
1:11:36 Speaker 07 Yeah, at least with the stream access stuff, I know that a lot of the, a lot of the people behind that, a lot of the people that are fighting stream access, it's, it's people from Texas.
1:11:47 Steven Rinella? Carpetbaggers.
1:11:49 Speaker 07 So.
1:11:50 Steven Rinella? For those of you listening and not watching, Randall threw his hands up in the air.
1:11:55 Speaker 07 Got to get on YouTube for that.
1:11:58 Steven Rinella? That's right. If you want to see Randall throw his hands in the air, go check us out on YouTube and subscribe.
1:12:03 Speaker 07 And now Apple Podcasts.
1:12:04 Steven Rinella? That's true. I heard, I heard app as well. Thanks for joining everyone. The only place to get the straight news, no BS.
1:12:12 Steven Rinella? See you next week.
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